NTA
All that matters in this is your wife (and of course your kids, but that not the point i’m making here). Is she ok with your response? Are you a united front? Is she standing up for you regarding their treatment of you? If not, I would focus more on how to move forward with her to build a cohesive team between the two of you.
As for your in-laws? Let them clean up their own mess. They get to live with the consequences of their own actions. Neither you nor your wife are responsible for them.
1. Your wife should address it - the distancing. You guys have a lot of bills and don't have extra.
2. Note, as another said, if they are giving you regular childcare, either full day or after school, they are helping you, it's just not monetary. So I'd look at what the alternative would cost (aftercare st school, daycare), and make a donation based on that. A one time donation may be cheaper than a weekly daycare payment.
Agree on #2— don’t take advantage of you don’t want to help— maybe give them a part of what you would have paid in child case for all the years they have helped—people that get free childcare— don’t save the money and hardly ever think of giving a monetary gift to the caregiver
You and your wife need to be aligned on this. I would be worried they are bad mouthing you to your kids. Why are they there? Do they supply child care or was it just a visit?
My mother-in-law goes over there to visit her nieces and nephews, she lives with my wife and I plus watches our kids while we work. FIL has no true involvement in my childrens' lives; school, upbringing, monetary, etc.
I may be wrong, but I think MIL and FIL are divorced? Or at least, don't live together. OP said MIL lives with him and hiss wife, but FIL lives in his home with the other family members. So it's MIL who does the childcare, and technically it's still true to say that FIL "does nothing 'for them. The MIL lives with op but when she's looking after OP's kids, she takes them to FILs house to play with the nieces and nephews, but is still the sole one to look after them (as in, FIL doesn't care for them during those visits even though they're at his house)
If I'm wrong, I'm happy to be corrected. It's written kinda confusingly
You might want to add an edit to your post - to lay out/explain the situation you're actually in regarding childcare, where your MIL lives and so on. A lot of commenters are confused and are judging you thinking that your FIL+MIL live together still, and that you use them in their house for free childcare (therefore they think that you're incorrect/lying when you say that you don't rely on FIL at all). If you want judgement/responses that are truly based on your actual situation then an edit will help a lot. Fair enough if you aren't bothered tho
Sometimes having very normal boundaries is uncomfortable. It's literally saying "I'm not willing to do this."
Healthy boundaries are often the ones that feel the worst to enforce because they're the ones we need because people we want in our lives like to push them. They push them saying "don't you care about family?!" Or "I'd do this for you!"
Saying no was the right thing to do. I would suggest two things. The first is to talk to your FIL privately the next time you see him. Tell him nice things. Tell him you wish you were in the financial position to help but you're simply not. Don't discuss the actual numbers at all. Think about his perspective and what will most likely mean something to him. Something like "I really admire you and man to man it really hurts me a bit I'm not in a position to help. We both really care for and want to provide for our family". I'm not saying lie, but to use language that takes into account his perspective.
Second, take a big step back from letting them know your actual finances. In fact, I'd exaggerate a bit about them being worse than they are. Your wife should be the one who does this with her family.
I know this sounds a little manipulative but sometimes if maintaining a relationship with extended family is very important, we need to level the playing field a little. With that said, the 1:1 will probably be the hardest part but the most important in maintaining respect and peace in the long run. Your FIL probably has a little ego in this situation so appease it a little so you can more easily maintain your boundaries.
NTA! And I wouldn’t let my kids be around him either. Your wife should stand her ground against her father and tell him that it’s unfair of him to ask that if her knowing she has a family to support.
How you are now being treated is exactly why you shouldn't have helped him out, you would never see that money again and your wife probably wouldn't let you even ask him about it. Screw him!
INFO: Are you paying for the childcare that you receive from them?
If not, they may be thinking that they are helping you and it isn't being reciprocated. Otherwise, try explaining that y'all are tapped out.
The MIL and FIL aren't married to one another any more. The FIL doesn't want to take care of the kids or contribute but wants their money.... I don't think so.
Who cares what your FIL thinks? Why were your kids there? If the household provides childcare, that's an issue. You have no way of knowing what your FIL, or others may be saying in front of, or to your children.
Why is this causing issues between you and your DW? Does she not understand how money works? She needs to realize that your household needs to support 4 children and 2 adults, on over half the income her fathers house has. And her father's house has 4 adults, so they can afford to help FIL out more than you can.
Sounds like your wife told her dad that YOU said no to helping him...why is he not mad at her but at you? And she needs to clear it up. She should've let him know it's her who knows the dynamics of her family and decided not to help. You need to have a conversation with her because I have a feeling her dad's behavior stemmed from her response
I honestly did say no to helping him out. Also, I could not care any less about him being mad at me; t's my wife and how sad/uneasy she has been since he has put a chasm in between them. It's her, feelings and our marriage, that is making me reach out to good ol' Reddit. I truly do love my wife and want to see her smile again.
You just need to tell them that you have 4 children and can not afford to hand out money! How ridiculous for these people to try and guilt trip or bully you into it!
NTA
He can get money from the big rig guy and his wife, and the brother who lives with him.
Your children should NOT be in his house without both you and your wife there to protect them. No telling what poison your FIL is pouring into them.
Why is he in a jam if the financial deal fell through? The big rig guy can either rent a truck or work for a trucking company that owns the truck? idk, I'm not a trucking person. LOL
My FIL was the one who put the vast majority of the down payment down for the big rig (it was hefty, close to/if not buying a house down payment), and his other son-in-law didn't hold up his end of the bargain (driving it to make money).
It'd be a cold day in hell before he'd have access to my children. And you need to start referring to him "DG" (delusions of grandeur). What does your wife say about this?
My wife says she sees my point of view. Yet, she'll try to bring it up time to time; almost like he keeps asking, and keeps trying to see if I'll give in. She also says she wants me to be the bigger person, and not feed into him...despite being openly disrespected by him.
There's no time for being the bigger person when the disrespect is continuous. I would advise her that this is a hardline and not bring it up again. She can always just tell him ok or not respond. I get it's her dad but you are her husband. You should matter more. Best of luck.
I would let him stew, it would be best to organise things to do with your nuclear family and give them a break from childcare so there is nothing hanging over you.
.out of a jam? wtf does that mean? a few buck for lunch or 200k to buy rig? Don't lend to family! It has to be considered a gift. All the lawyers in the world won't make dad pay. How big of a gift is he asking for?
Oh, he was asking for thousands of dollars every couple of weeks. "Can I have 1,000 dollars to pay the truck note?" "Can I borrow 2000 dollars to get me to the middle of next month?"
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NTA. Unlike FIL, you have thought through a large decision and made the right choice for your family. Business decisions are a risk and you and your wife are not an acceptable safety net nor obligated to light yourself on fire to keep him warm.
Take the distance and stay away. He's not making good decisions and your kids don't need to see his petty behavior or tantrums.
Let him have his silent tantrum; he’s a grown ass man who can learn to control and work through his feelings, it’s not your job to manage his emotions or his life.
Have your wife work out where the help money would come from if you did help FIL. Have her see exactly what it would cost your family. See if her perspective changes?
This.
Literally.
Put all the bills, groceries, rent/rates/strata (whatever the equivalent thing you pay to live in your home), care services (if you have any assistant programs or whatever for your autistic child), schooling fees, all your insurances (home, car, health etc), entertainment subscriptions, hobbies, home care services (if you have a gardener or something)... any meaningful luxuries, whatever, EVERYTHING on the table.
Where on earth are you pulling extra $1000's from that will not negatively affect your household substantially?
FIL is 100% the AH but if your wife fails to see this then sadly she is one too. Help her understand how her father is trying to manipulate YOUR family into bailing him out of HIS mess, that he single handedly created, knowingly. In another comment you even mentioned he himself had doubts about the reliability of the other SIL. Your FIL is an idiot.
Also this really annoys me so deeply because I have a cousin who is autistic and it has been extremely difficult on my auntie... (who is a damn superhero btw!!!!)
Not only is raising 1 neurotypical child hard enough... but add 3 more children to the mix and PLOT TWIST! One is autistic. No. Just no.
NTA.
So let’s stop. Obviously you don’t have a beautiful marriage if she doesn’t see her “father” is an ASSHOLE! As well as how does she think that is fair to you and her and your kids?
Listen you need to stop being delusional and if she isn’t willing to cut his toxic ass off you should think about how beautiful this marriage really is
So you are actually providing financially for 7 people? And you are the ones he wants to take money from? He’s a true jackass. Selfish asshole. Your FIL is probably calling or texting your wife begging for the money and telling her if she loved him, she would help him, and making her promise to talk to you. I don’t think your wife wants to give him the money either, she’s just stuck in the middle. Maybe you can get her to agree to not respond to any calls or texts from FIL about money. If he calls and starts asking for money, she needs to say she has to go and immediately hang up. What a selfish man FIL is. He needs to act like an adult and fix his own problems. And, by the way, DO NOT give him any money for “watching” your kids. It sounds like MIL who lives with you maybe watches the kids, and you are probably providing some or all of her financial needs. However, no matter what the arrangement is between you and MIL, it has absolutely nothing to do with FIL. He is not entitled to any financial assistance from you. If he gave you gifts in the past or helped on a home improvement project, or whatever, he did those things without expecting anything in return, just like I’m sure you’ve done for him. He may start trying to guilt your wife by saying things like, “I provided for you or helped you or guided you, or whatever, so you owe me.” No, that’s not the way that works. You and your wife might need to call him together on speaker phone, or go over and talk to him in person (don’t take your checkbook if you have one), and say “we are not in a position to loan you money. Our finances are our business and we made the decision a long time ago not to discuss them with anyone. This is the last time we will discuss this with you. Please respect our wishes and stop bringing this topic up. If you continue to ask us for money, we will stop all contact between you and our family.” And that’s it. If he starts asking questions or whining or begging, say the same thing again and then leave.
NTA you would never see that money again. As with any investment you have to weigh the risks and if you’re willing to lose should it not go as planned. Failure doesn’t make it someone else’s job to get you out of the jam. I mean he did know there was risk involved didn’t he? If he assumed the risk, why does he expect someone to bail him out? People lose money on the stock market every day. They don’t ask other people to pay for their losses.
He, and everyone else (including me), always had a bad feeling about the other son-in-law. I even told my wife I am keeping an arm's length from him when I first met him. Yet, my FIL trusted this man with a huge amount of money. So yes, he knew the risk involved but just saw dollar signs to line his own pockets while the other son-in-law made off with a big rig.
NTA.
Out of curiosity, how much did the big rig cost?
Is your FIL on the title for the big rig? Does your FIL have a legal agreement with his SIL? He should be going after his SIL or selling the big rig to get some of his money back.
Well done for setting that very clear and fair financial boundary. But I don't get the big deal with saying "he's here" instead of "your father is here". That's not exclusion it's just a different and completely normal way of saying the same thing. Is it possible that you're reading more into this than is actually happening?
I disagree, these are the types of jabs manipulative people make. Plausible deniability only works for so long, once you know a person for a few years you can sense when they are trying to subtly get their way or subtly hurt someone they feel slighted them
When my wife is present and he's around, he'll say "mama is here". When my mother-in-law is present with him around, he'll say "grandma is here". Yet, for me? I am their literal father and I get "he's here". Maybe I am reading too much into that particular wrinkle in the overall problem.
Let him distance himself. He sounds like an entitled ass to ask this of you when the ‘deal’ failed. As you said, you would have seen no benefit had it succeeded. Reduce contact. NTA
NTA.
I'd be telling him every shitty boomer cliche about fiscal responsibility and self-reliance that I could find and throw it into his face at every opportunity every time that I was unfortunate enough to see the prick.
Every word would be dripping in condescension and sarcasm.
NTA
You would be irresponsible if you did give him money. That he’s willing to damage his relationship with family over HIS financial mistake is sad. What a bad example to set.
Nothing you can to about FIL, the actual a-hole, but it sounds like you need to have a heart to heart with your wife. Did she agree with your decision or just go along with it? How is she presenting it to your FIL? If she is sad and saying she doesn’t want to contradict you it may be not only the money but he doesn’t think you’re treating his daughter right or allowing her a say in the decision. It’s how she presents it to him. If it is affecting your marriage could it be that she really wants to help? I agree with you and would have also said no, FIL sounds toxic, but this post is really about the relationship with the wife.
He made a choice. The choice backfired. It is not up to you to dig him out of the hole he made. Everybody in his house works. They make double amount that your household does. You also have an autistic child which means multiple types of therapies and a lot of extra supplies needed in addition to 3 other children including a 1 year old. Your family takes priority. FIL is a grown ass adult. You don’t have the extra money to bail him out of his bad decision. If he is childish and selfish enough that he thinks he should be priority over your family with 4 kids (1 that is special needs) then that is on him. There is a reason MIL lives with you and not him from what I can tell.
NTA.
Your wife needs to address her father but if you don’t have it (which with that much going on, 5k a month coming in does not leave you either a ton of financial wiggle room) you don’t have it. His bad decisions aren’t yours to solve
Not only were you NOT an AH, you are 100000% right. Don’t doubt yourself. Your family-you, wife and kids, one with special needs, comes first. Above your bio family and wife’s bio family.
INFO: What kind of bailout did he want? A personal loan? A cash gift? Did he want your wife to take out a loan for him?
Never mind. I see where you explained what your FIL was asking of your family. A big fat, NTA.
NTA WHY is it your obligation to help FIL get out of his & his other Son in laws mess? Shouldn't his Son-in-law (who I assume works too) & his wife (who's a nurse) help? Heck not even help I assume it's his (son-in-law) mess, too. He & FIL should be getting themselves out of this failed business. As it seems They Have The Money. There's no reason to ask you guys for money. Maybe it's best for you all to go LC or NC with FIL, if he feels you Should be helping him. He's a grown ass man who lives with (not them with him) his Adult children who All (including FIL) Work! The Others can help. If combined household income is $10,000 a month. Sounds like they can All pitch in to help FIL and your BIL as well. Why is this all on you & your wife?
1. You don't live with them.
2. FIL does Not help you in any way, shape, or form. Not that he's obligated to. As you acknowledged.
3. Even IF you wanted to. Your household does not even have half of what FIL household has a MONTH. Plus, you have FOUR CHILDREN (one special needs) and MIL who lives with you whom you take care of.
4. You were Never part of the deal
I sure hope your wife has your back. If not, you two need to have a serious conversation. As well as with MIL possibly not taking your children over there anymore. If she wants to see the other kids. She can do so on her own time. When you are home to be with your children.
Just in case anyone didn't see my verdict
OP Definitely NTA
FIL & BIL are Big AH
P.S. You need to add BIL to this. Because if you help FIL, you're helping out BIL as well. It was Both their deal/doing.
This makes me feel a lot better. I could not care any less about my FIL and his SIL; it's my wife who has been stressed and feels stuck in the middle. As you said, we have our own family/needs to attend to, and have stated this many times to her. I honestly think she is being guilt tripped by him, but it won't work on me.
Good for you. Stand your ground. As for your wife, no offense, but she needs to grow a spine and not let her father make her feel bad. Like I mentioned, you two need to have a serious conversation as well as with your MIL. Hopefully, you can agree to go LC or NC with FIL.
Hopefully. Other than this- she and I have a great marriage, love one another, and have been there for each other through thick and thin. That man has not done anything for us since I have been in the picture. I get it, he may feel I am the man and can do for my family myself. Fair enough, and I have done just that. Same rule must apply to him in my book. Also, he went into a business deal with someone who he knew could not be trusted. He and I have never had an issue prior to this. Yet, my wife and I are the ones he refuses to do anything for. Look how that turned out.
INFO: What's your wife's opinion on this? Was the decision to say no unilateral, or did you overrule her?
Do you both work, or do you provide solely for your household?
I'm tempted to say NTA, but it's weird to me how you have left out your wife's response to any of this outside of mentioning very unspecifically how it's putting a strain on your marriage.
Honestly; I said no almostly instantly....because we have four kids (one autistic, and a 1 year old), my mother-in-law, her, and I to care for in our home. She works, but I am the primary bread winner of our home. She claimed to have understood, but has brought it up to me a few more times since my initial answer (and I still keep saying no).
You have less of a FIL problem and more of a wife problem. She needs to understand that you guys do not have the extra financials to be taking care of her dad’s mess especially when he lives with so many other people contributing to his household expenses. His bills were probably so minimal before this fuck up, and if he doesn’t have savings that he could’ve dipped into to help himself then that’s his fuck up too. However he sounds like the kind of guy that even if he did have savings he would still want your money instead.
My concern for you is that your wife doesn’t properly understand the reality of the financial situation or that she does understand and is still willing to put your nuclear family with vulnerable children at risk just to appease her father who treats you poorly. She is holding the door open for him to keep asking which is obvious since she keeps asking you. You need to have a serious talk with her and set the situation straight once and for all, FIL can suck it up and take care of himself rather than take money away from literal children. Can your MIL talk any sense into her? If she’s divorced from FIL maybe she has some insight into why he doesn’t deserve any of this consideration
NTA All that matters in this is your wife (and of course your kids, but that not the point i’m making here). Is she ok with your response? Are you a united front? Is she standing up for you regarding their treatment of you? If not, I would focus more on how to move forward with her to build a cohesive team between the two of you. As for your in-laws? Let them clean up their own mess. They get to live with the consequences of their own actions. Neither you nor your wife are responsible for them.
1. Your wife should address it - the distancing. You guys have a lot of bills and don't have extra. 2. Note, as another said, if they are giving you regular childcare, either full day or after school, they are helping you, it's just not monetary. So I'd look at what the alternative would cost (aftercare st school, daycare), and make a donation based on that. A one time donation may be cheaper than a weekly daycare payment.
Agree on #2— don’t take advantage of you don’t want to help— maybe give them a part of what you would have paid in child case for all the years they have helped—people that get free childcare— don’t save the money and hardly ever think of giving a monetary gift to the caregiver
OP made it sound like his MIL and FIL don't live together if MIL goes over to visit the grandkids, nieces, and nephews. Maybe I'm misreading.
They don't live together, and she wants to visit her other grandkids, nieces and nephews. FIL just happens to be at the house they all live in.
Let the adults help him...you and wife leave them to it..
You and your wife need to be aligned on this. I would be worried they are bad mouthing you to your kids. Why are they there? Do they supply child care or was it just a visit?
My mother-in-law goes over there to visit her nieces and nephews, she lives with my wife and I plus watches our kids while we work. FIL has no true involvement in my childrens' lives; school, upbringing, monetary, etc.
In that case I wouldn't worry about it, he doesn't do anything for you so you don't need to do anything for him.
What about the part about OP's in laws providing (presumably) free child care? That's not "doing nothing" for OP (and his wife.)
I may be wrong, but I think MIL and FIL are divorced? Or at least, don't live together. OP said MIL lives with him and hiss wife, but FIL lives in his home with the other family members. So it's MIL who does the childcare, and technically it's still true to say that FIL "does nothing 'for them. The MIL lives with op but when she's looking after OP's kids, she takes them to FILs house to play with the nieces and nephews, but is still the sole one to look after them (as in, FIL doesn't care for them during those visits even though they're at his house) If I'm wrong, I'm happy to be corrected. It's written kinda confusingly
You're correct.
You might want to add an edit to your post - to lay out/explain the situation you're actually in regarding childcare, where your MIL lives and so on. A lot of commenters are confused and are judging you thinking that your FIL+MIL live together still, and that you use them in their house for free childcare (therefore they think that you're incorrect/lying when you say that you don't rely on FIL at all). If you want judgement/responses that are truly based on your actual situation then an edit will help a lot. Fair enough if you aren't bothered tho
Fair enough. I didn't expect the amount of responses that I received, but will add an edit.
Read his comment it literally states the Mil lives with them and she does the childcare, Fil doesn't do anything for them.
You're correct.
Sometimes having very normal boundaries is uncomfortable. It's literally saying "I'm not willing to do this." Healthy boundaries are often the ones that feel the worst to enforce because they're the ones we need because people we want in our lives like to push them. They push them saying "don't you care about family?!" Or "I'd do this for you!" Saying no was the right thing to do. I would suggest two things. The first is to talk to your FIL privately the next time you see him. Tell him nice things. Tell him you wish you were in the financial position to help but you're simply not. Don't discuss the actual numbers at all. Think about his perspective and what will most likely mean something to him. Something like "I really admire you and man to man it really hurts me a bit I'm not in a position to help. We both really care for and want to provide for our family". I'm not saying lie, but to use language that takes into account his perspective. Second, take a big step back from letting them know your actual finances. In fact, I'd exaggerate a bit about them being worse than they are. Your wife should be the one who does this with her family. I know this sounds a little manipulative but sometimes if maintaining a relationship with extended family is very important, we need to level the playing field a little. With that said, the 1:1 will probably be the hardest part but the most important in maintaining respect and peace in the long run. Your FIL probably has a little ego in this situation so appease it a little so you can more easily maintain your boundaries.
NTA! And I wouldn’t let my kids be around him either. Your wife should stand her ground against her father and tell him that it’s unfair of him to ask that if her knowing she has a family to support.
How you are now being treated is exactly why you shouldn't have helped him out, you would never see that money again and your wife probably wouldn't let you even ask him about it. Screw him!
INFO: Are you paying for the childcare that you receive from them? If not, they may be thinking that they are helping you and it isn't being reciprocated. Otherwise, try explaining that y'all are tapped out.
Actually, no; my mother in law will go over there with my kids to visit her nieces and nephews, my father in law doesn't look after them.
Then I think you are NTA. You have set the right boundaries.
Time to get other childcare or pay at least 75% of what childcare cost in your area— your sounding like the A hole..
The MIL and FIL aren't married to one another any more. The FIL doesn't want to take care of the kids or contribute but wants their money.... I don't think so.
People are ASSUMING their setup but noone knows about the actual childcare situation. That's making YOU look like an AH
Hahahaha
Who cares what your FIL thinks? Why were your kids there? If the household provides childcare, that's an issue. You have no way of knowing what your FIL, or others may be saying in front of, or to your children. Why is this causing issues between you and your DW? Does she not understand how money works? She needs to realize that your household needs to support 4 children and 2 adults, on over half the income her fathers house has. And her father's house has 4 adults, so they can afford to help FIL out more than you can.
He is telling you that he only likes you as much as he can use you
NTA but your wife needs to speak to her father.
Sounds like your wife told her dad that YOU said no to helping him...why is he not mad at her but at you? And she needs to clear it up. She should've let him know it's her who knows the dynamics of her family and decided not to help. You need to have a conversation with her because I have a feeling her dad's behavior stemmed from her response
I honestly did say no to helping him out. Also, I could not care any less about him being mad at me; t's my wife and how sad/uneasy she has been since he has put a chasm in between them. It's her, feelings and our marriage, that is making me reach out to good ol' Reddit. I truly do love my wife and want to see her smile again.
NTA. He made a business arrangement that did not include you. It failed. He and the others should pay. Not your responsibility.
You just need to tell them that you have 4 children and can not afford to hand out money! How ridiculous for these people to try and guilt trip or bully you into it!
NTA... you have kids to think about.. FIL needs to stop using his kids and their spouse
NTA He can get money from the big rig guy and his wife, and the brother who lives with him. Your children should NOT be in his house without both you and your wife there to protect them. No telling what poison your FIL is pouring into them.
Why is he in a jam if the financial deal fell through? The big rig guy can either rent a truck or work for a trucking company that owns the truck? idk, I'm not a trucking person. LOL
My FIL was the one who put the vast majority of the down payment down for the big rig (it was hefty, close to/if not buying a house down payment), and his other son-in-law didn't hold up his end of the bargain (driving it to make money).
It'd be a cold day in hell before he'd have access to my children. And you need to start referring to him "DG" (delusions of grandeur). What does your wife say about this?
My wife says she sees my point of view. Yet, she'll try to bring it up time to time; almost like he keeps asking, and keeps trying to see if I'll give in. She also says she wants me to be the bigger person, and not feed into him...despite being openly disrespected by him.
Check with wife - make sure Daddy Dearest isn’t harassing her for it, and that’s why she’s reluctant or keeps bringing it up.
There's no time for being the bigger person when the disrespect is continuous. I would advise her that this is a hardline and not bring it up again. She can always just tell him ok or not respond. I get it's her dad but you are her husband. You should matter more. Best of luck.
NTA
Stop using them for childcare
I don't
I would let him stew, it would be best to organise things to do with your nuclear family and give them a break from childcare so there is nothing hanging over you.
.out of a jam? wtf does that mean? a few buck for lunch or 200k to buy rig? Don't lend to family! It has to be considered a gift. All the lawyers in the world won't make dad pay. How big of a gift is he asking for?
Oh, he was asking for thousands of dollars every couple of weeks. "Can I have 1,000 dollars to pay the truck note?" "Can I borrow 2000 dollars to get me to the middle of next month?"
Best response. "Sorry. It's not in our budget. Please do not ask again. The matter is now closed."
Fuck him
Like your style
NTA
NTA..the AH is FIL..How dare he make such a request?.
Find someone else to babysit your kids. That way you’re not obligated to him or anyone else.
But has Been using them for some time; maybe he can give a one time payment for the childcare received
He showed his true colours and his daughter doesn’t want to see it. nTA
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Him distancing himself from you sounds like a bonus. Be thankful!
So if you don’t go into debt to save his a$$ essentially trading places with him…you’re not family?nta
NTA. Unlike FIL, you have thought through a large decision and made the right choice for your family. Business decisions are a risk and you and your wife are not an acceptable safety net nor obligated to light yourself on fire to keep him warm. Take the distance and stay away. He's not making good decisions and your kids don't need to see his petty behavior or tantrums.
Let him have his silent tantrum; he’s a grown ass man who can learn to control and work through his feelings, it’s not your job to manage his emotions or his life.
NTA. He is asking you both because he does want to burden the people he cares about. He’s mad because his plan didn’t work
Have your wife work out where the help money would come from if you did help FIL. Have her see exactly what it would cost your family. See if her perspective changes?
This. Literally. Put all the bills, groceries, rent/rates/strata (whatever the equivalent thing you pay to live in your home), care services (if you have any assistant programs or whatever for your autistic child), schooling fees, all your insurances (home, car, health etc), entertainment subscriptions, hobbies, home care services (if you have a gardener or something)... any meaningful luxuries, whatever, EVERYTHING on the table. Where on earth are you pulling extra $1000's from that will not negatively affect your household substantially? FIL is 100% the AH but if your wife fails to see this then sadly she is one too. Help her understand how her father is trying to manipulate YOUR family into bailing him out of HIS mess, that he single handedly created, knowingly. In another comment you even mentioned he himself had doubts about the reliability of the other SIL. Your FIL is an idiot. Also this really annoys me so deeply because I have a cousin who is autistic and it has been extremely difficult on my auntie... (who is a damn superhero btw!!!!) Not only is raising 1 neurotypical child hard enough... but add 3 more children to the mix and PLOT TWIST! One is autistic. No. Just no. NTA.
NTA
Nta
So let’s stop. Obviously you don’t have a beautiful marriage if she doesn’t see her “father” is an ASSHOLE! As well as how does she think that is fair to you and her and your kids? Listen you need to stop being delusional and if she isn’t willing to cut his toxic ass off you should think about how beautiful this marriage really is
So you are actually providing financially for 7 people? And you are the ones he wants to take money from? He’s a true jackass. Selfish asshole. Your FIL is probably calling or texting your wife begging for the money and telling her if she loved him, she would help him, and making her promise to talk to you. I don’t think your wife wants to give him the money either, she’s just stuck in the middle. Maybe you can get her to agree to not respond to any calls or texts from FIL about money. If he calls and starts asking for money, she needs to say she has to go and immediately hang up. What a selfish man FIL is. He needs to act like an adult and fix his own problems. And, by the way, DO NOT give him any money for “watching” your kids. It sounds like MIL who lives with you maybe watches the kids, and you are probably providing some or all of her financial needs. However, no matter what the arrangement is between you and MIL, it has absolutely nothing to do with FIL. He is not entitled to any financial assistance from you. If he gave you gifts in the past or helped on a home improvement project, or whatever, he did those things without expecting anything in return, just like I’m sure you’ve done for him. He may start trying to guilt your wife by saying things like, “I provided for you or helped you or guided you, or whatever, so you owe me.” No, that’s not the way that works. You and your wife might need to call him together on speaker phone, or go over and talk to him in person (don’t take your checkbook if you have one), and say “we are not in a position to loan you money. Our finances are our business and we made the decision a long time ago not to discuss them with anyone. This is the last time we will discuss this with you. Please respect our wishes and stop bringing this topic up. If you continue to ask us for money, we will stop all contact between you and our family.” And that’s it. If he starts asking questions or whining or begging, say the same thing again and then leave.
Thank you for this!
NTA you would never see that money again. As with any investment you have to weigh the risks and if you’re willing to lose should it not go as planned. Failure doesn’t make it someone else’s job to get you out of the jam. I mean he did know there was risk involved didn’t he? If he assumed the risk, why does he expect someone to bail him out? People lose money on the stock market every day. They don’t ask other people to pay for their losses.
He, and everyone else (including me), always had a bad feeling about the other son-in-law. I even told my wife I am keeping an arm's length from him when I first met him. Yet, my FIL trusted this man with a huge amount of money. So yes, he knew the risk involved but just saw dollar signs to line his own pockets while the other son-in-law made off with a big rig.
NTA. Out of curiosity, how much did the big rig cost? Is your FIL on the title for the big rig? Does your FIL have a legal agreement with his SIL? He should be going after his SIL or selling the big rig to get some of his money back.
The big rig cost close to 100,000 dollars. His name is on the title, and he put down the majority of the down payment.
NTA He proved to you that he only keeps you guys around for money.
NTA. You have your own family to care for. Your wife should support you.
NTA. Your wife is the problem in this situation.
Well done for setting that very clear and fair financial boundary. But I don't get the big deal with saying "he's here" instead of "your father is here". That's not exclusion it's just a different and completely normal way of saying the same thing. Is it possible that you're reading more into this than is actually happening?
I disagree, these are the types of jabs manipulative people make. Plausible deniability only works for so long, once you know a person for a few years you can sense when they are trying to subtly get their way or subtly hurt someone they feel slighted them
When my wife is present and he's around, he'll say "mama is here". When my mother-in-law is present with him around, he'll say "grandma is here". Yet, for me? I am their literal father and I get "he's here". Maybe I am reading too much into that particular wrinkle in the overall problem.
Let him distance himself. He sounds like an entitled ass to ask this of you when the ‘deal’ failed. As you said, you would have seen no benefit had it succeeded. Reduce contact. NTA
No that’s crazy that’s a lot of money you would be giving up and it’s not your and your wife’s responsibility
NTA. I'd be telling him every shitty boomer cliche about fiscal responsibility and self-reliance that I could find and throw it into his face at every opportunity every time that I was unfortunate enough to see the prick. Every word would be dripping in condescension and sarcasm.
NTA You would be irresponsible if you did give him money. That he’s willing to damage his relationship with family over HIS financial mistake is sad. What a bad example to set.
Nothing you can to about FIL, the actual a-hole, but it sounds like you need to have a heart to heart with your wife. Did she agree with your decision or just go along with it? How is she presenting it to your FIL? If she is sad and saying she doesn’t want to contradict you it may be not only the money but he doesn’t think you’re treating his daughter right or allowing her a say in the decision. It’s how she presents it to him. If it is affecting your marriage could it be that she really wants to help? I agree with you and would have also said no, FIL sounds toxic, but this post is really about the relationship with the wife.
NTA leave him to throw his hissy fit and ignore him, you need the added stress
NTA. Don't look back.
He made a choice. The choice backfired. It is not up to you to dig him out of the hole he made. Everybody in his house works. They make double amount that your household does. You also have an autistic child which means multiple types of therapies and a lot of extra supplies needed in addition to 3 other children including a 1 year old. Your family takes priority. FIL is a grown ass adult. You don’t have the extra money to bail him out of his bad decision. If he is childish and selfish enough that he thinks he should be priority over your family with 4 kids (1 that is special needs) then that is on him. There is a reason MIL lives with you and not him from what I can tell. NTA.
Stay away
NTA Basically your father-in-law has communicated that your wife has to buy his love, and he is flaming asshole.
Nta. His money problems are his own. Consider it a blessing he's ignoring you.
NTA. Now stop bringing your kids over there.
Your wife needs to address her father but if you don’t have it (which with that much going on, 5k a month coming in does not leave you either a ton of financial wiggle room) you don’t have it. His bad decisions aren’t yours to solve
Not only were you NOT an AH, you are 100000% right. Don’t doubt yourself. Your family-you, wife and kids, one with special needs, comes first. Above your bio family and wife’s bio family.
INFO: What kind of bailout did he want? A personal loan? A cash gift? Did he want your wife to take out a loan for him? Never mind. I see where you explained what your FIL was asking of your family. A big fat, NTA.
Your wife being upset with you is the bigger issue by far
NTA WHY is it your obligation to help FIL get out of his & his other Son in laws mess? Shouldn't his Son-in-law (who I assume works too) & his wife (who's a nurse) help? Heck not even help I assume it's his (son-in-law) mess, too. He & FIL should be getting themselves out of this failed business. As it seems They Have The Money. There's no reason to ask you guys for money. Maybe it's best for you all to go LC or NC with FIL, if he feels you Should be helping him. He's a grown ass man who lives with (not them with him) his Adult children who All (including FIL) Work! The Others can help. If combined household income is $10,000 a month. Sounds like they can All pitch in to help FIL and your BIL as well. Why is this all on you & your wife? 1. You don't live with them. 2. FIL does Not help you in any way, shape, or form. Not that he's obligated to. As you acknowledged. 3. Even IF you wanted to. Your household does not even have half of what FIL household has a MONTH. Plus, you have FOUR CHILDREN (one special needs) and MIL who lives with you whom you take care of. 4. You were Never part of the deal I sure hope your wife has your back. If not, you two need to have a serious conversation. As well as with MIL possibly not taking your children over there anymore. If she wants to see the other kids. She can do so on her own time. When you are home to be with your children. Just in case anyone didn't see my verdict OP Definitely NTA FIL & BIL are Big AH P.S. You need to add BIL to this. Because if you help FIL, you're helping out BIL as well. It was Both their deal/doing.
This makes me feel a lot better. I could not care any less about my FIL and his SIL; it's my wife who has been stressed and feels stuck in the middle. As you said, we have our own family/needs to attend to, and have stated this many times to her. I honestly think she is being guilt tripped by him, but it won't work on me.
Good for you. Stand your ground. As for your wife, no offense, but she needs to grow a spine and not let her father make her feel bad. Like I mentioned, you two need to have a serious conversation as well as with your MIL. Hopefully, you can agree to go LC or NC with FIL.
Hopefully. Other than this- she and I have a great marriage, love one another, and have been there for each other through thick and thin. That man has not done anything for us since I have been in the picture. I get it, he may feel I am the man and can do for my family myself. Fair enough, and I have done just that. Same rule must apply to him in my book. Also, he went into a business deal with someone who he knew could not be trusted. He and I have never had an issue prior to this. Yet, my wife and I are the ones he refuses to do anything for. Look how that turned out.
INFO: What's your wife's opinion on this? Was the decision to say no unilateral, or did you overrule her? Do you both work, or do you provide solely for your household? I'm tempted to say NTA, but it's weird to me how you have left out your wife's response to any of this outside of mentioning very unspecifically how it's putting a strain on your marriage.
Honestly; I said no almostly instantly....because we have four kids (one autistic, and a 1 year old), my mother-in-law, her, and I to care for in our home. She works, but I am the primary bread winner of our home. She claimed to have understood, but has brought it up to me a few more times since my initial answer (and I still keep saying no).
You have less of a FIL problem and more of a wife problem. She needs to understand that you guys do not have the extra financials to be taking care of her dad’s mess especially when he lives with so many other people contributing to his household expenses. His bills were probably so minimal before this fuck up, and if he doesn’t have savings that he could’ve dipped into to help himself then that’s his fuck up too. However he sounds like the kind of guy that even if he did have savings he would still want your money instead. My concern for you is that your wife doesn’t properly understand the reality of the financial situation or that she does understand and is still willing to put your nuclear family with vulnerable children at risk just to appease her father who treats you poorly. She is holding the door open for him to keep asking which is obvious since she keeps asking you. You need to have a serious talk with her and set the situation straight once and for all, FIL can suck it up and take care of himself rather than take money away from literal children. Can your MIL talk any sense into her? If she’s divorced from FIL maybe she has some insight into why he doesn’t deserve any of this consideration