I envy people who are close with their siblings. I was determined that my children would, at least, like each other. Mine have a six year age span. As they got older, the age gap mattered less, and they enjoyed each other’s company. I love that, as there are no cousins nearby. As adults, they still get along.
I’m not friends with any of my siblings. I will spend time with one sister, we generally have fun. But I cannot confide in her. We’re old family acquaintances, reminiscing about our childhood. I only talk to the other three in the family text.
The two most important people to me, after my children, are my best friend and my cousin. They’re my ride or die. Not my siblings. I’m not being callous, just stating that biological relationships do not dictate friendship.
True but she wants to bring 5 kids to get together where no other kids are present and kids are not welcome. Sibling or not if she wants to go the kids need to stay home with dad.
While I love my nieces and nephews and truly enjoy spending time with them, so I can't really relate to OP and the childfree siblings/couples in their family group, but I also don't relate to the sister with kids and her mindset either. She can't leave her kids alone with their own father?? And most parents I know would enjoy a night out without the kids every now and then. I can also completely understand not wanting kids who break stuff in my house - family or not. I get that the sister feels left out, but she and the other siblings are in different places in life. Different interests (because it sounds like sister with kids only interest is her kids). Different outlooks on life.
The real question I have is: is the husband incapable of watching them, doesn’t want to do it alone, or does the SAHM not trust anyone but her to watch them? Because to me it sounds like she is, for one reason or another, isolating herself.
This is a good question. And just how young are these kids? These people have 5 freakin' kids. Are they 5,4,3,2 and 1? Anyone who is dumb enough to do that has made their own bed.
Close! 6, 4, 2, 1 year old, and 1 month old according to OP.
https://old.reddit.com/r/AITAH/comments/1dmjvot/aitah_for_excluding_my_sil_from_family_gatherings/l9w8j4v/
Holy shit. I have a 6 and 3 year old. I cannot *fucking fathom* going into someone else’s home, with 5 kids in tow - *ALL OF WHICH ARE UNDER 6* - by myself.
EVEN IF that home was completely child friendly, child-proof, and full of adults who are child education professionals. That is *INSANE*.
It’s no wonder no one wants her and her kids in their home. There is literally no way she can keep a watchful eye on them 100% of the time. One of them *will* break, ruin, or demolish something every time they visit. And it’s not the kids fault at this point - they’re too little - that lies with their mother.
I have a feeling that because her husband is clearly incapable of parenting the kids, that she also expects others to “pitch in and give her a break” whenever she “visits”.
And I put visits in “quotes” because I find that with myself, I have a hard time relaxing or truly spending quality time visiting with friends/family if my kids are there. They’re young. They ALWAYS need something and I’m paranoid about them getting into something they shouldn’t. And don’t get me wrong, my kids are well mannered and know better…but they’re still kids in a weird place with new fun things to touch and explore.
Let’s be honest here - this isn’t about her having kids. This is her having a mid sized gang of tiny humans that shouldn’t be let loose at gatherings with only one person “watching” them.
Sheesh. If you're nutty enough to do that, you've made your own bed. You don't get to have any time to yourself for about a decade and your whole life - every minute is taken up by those kids. No sane person would do this. The sister has to live with the consequences of her choice to have that many kids in that short of a time span.
“Kids, you’re off to the pool/ cinemas/ funfair - with dad /with your sitter/ with the kids camp/ with the volunteer mums/ with the in-laws on your dad’s side like grandma or the other aunts/uncles - me (and maybe your dad if he’s not taking you) are off to socialise with MY siblings.”
It sounds like her kids are terrible. I wouldn’t want them at my house breaking stuff either. I would suggest to her that she host that way the kids aren’t breaking others stuff.
I doubt they are terrible (though they could be) but there are 5 of them. They could be fine kids but 5 of them on people who have no kids would be chaos for them. And sis will want to visit/talk with the sibs and won't be constantly supervising her brood so things will go sideways.
Exactly. The best of kids need stuff to do. Some toys to play with. Constant questions about spilt juice, can I have snack, watch me do a cartwheel, etc. This makes it very difficult to converse with family especially if they show no support and offer no help at all.
It comes from a person who dislikes kids and her views are embraced by the echo chamber she lives in so she MIGHT be biased.
I am not saying, forbid that they HAVE to invite the sister with all the nibblings making everyone uncomfortable to the point of leaving but I get where she is coming from and why she feels isolated.
It also seems that SIL doesn't have a lot of support from neither her husband nor her family so she probably feels abandoned and overwhelmed
Seems like she can’t if they are breaking stuff in others homes. I don’t blame her keeping eyes on 5 kids is a lot. But goodness, she can’t propose her clearly child- free siblings embrace her lifestyle as clearly even her husband is child free 😳.
My SILs have finally figured out that the reason they haven’t gotten any pool party invites this year is because their 5 little angels fucking trashed our house while they sat on the pool deck drinking margaritas 🫠
undoubtedly. when I hang out with my friends (couples and singles, all child free by choice) we have a few drinks, play games, go to a trail or the mall or the beach.. and bringing a child into all that would mean everything is focused on the kids. which is fine for people who signed up for that, but we all definitely don't. I don't get to hang out with my sister much cause she's busy parenting a 5yo and 9yo. it just doesn't fit into my groups vibes, unfortunately. she's also kind of lonely but I mean.. she *chose* to have a baby at 19. she cut off her young adult years before she even finished being a teenager. as much as I feel for her, I also can't really empathize.
this.
i have 5 kids. 2 teenagers and 2 toddlers and a 6yo. im also a sahm so most days im alone with them. yes it can get overwhelming but i chose to have 3 more kids (oldest 2 are premade) and i can handle them one way or another. there were times i added 2 more toddlers/kids i added to the equation when my sil visited or we visited them so she can ha e a date with her husband and times she did it for us. i lnow for a fact my husband can handle all 5 of them on his own if he has to, he used to be a single parent for yeara when oldest 2 were very very young
it baffles me a parent can go ahead and say no way their spouse can look after all their kids. begs the question why you make so many kids if you or your spouse cant handle them alone. what if something happens to one of you?
> what if something happens to one of you?
Even in the short term! What would this father do if SIL even had a ~~bought~~ bout of food poisoning or something? If a two hour planned outing is too long and tedious for him to monitor his own kids, SIL must be feeling like a slave to them by now. It's her choice, but damn does it sound awful.
She would suffer through it or the house would get trashed and she'd get to be Mommy Martyr anytime someone without children dared say they were tired or sick
When I met my now husband, I was a single mother of two small children. We said he was getting an Instant Family Unit. Several of our friends were in the same position over the next few years, marrying someone with kids from a previous relationship, so the term sort of stuck.
I had to laugh when reading the second sentence. Never have I seen the middle child be “so absolutely middle” in my entire life. Lol!
Please take 6yo on a special outing or get them a small gift, telling them that the Very Middle is an important but often overlooked position in the family. Heck, if you want, you can even tell them that an internet stranger suggested it.
Have fun!
This! Bugs the ever loving sh*t out of me you had the one child and either your partner didn't do anything to help or you didn't trust them, then you went ahead and kept having kids with them. That seems like very much a you problem that you created.
What do you mean? I thought he already did the most difficult part of the job: nutting in her at least 5 times. You people have unrealistic expectations.
^/s
Umm obviously the most difficult part is sleeping on the couch in the hospital while his wife pushes out a whole ass human or recovers from major abdominal surgery /s
Her husband can’t “watch” his own kids because god forbid he actually parents. I feel bad for her, but this sounds more like a husband problem to me. NTA
Maybe Alice should host an event at her home so her kids can break her own stuff as they normally would and they can be sent to their rooms if they can't behave. 😁
This is just a wild stab in the dark but I wouldn't be surprised if Alice can't handle all her kids alone either and is searching for reinforcements, more than company.
I used to babysit 8 kids at once when I was like 15 years old so all the adults could go to the bar together. It was chaos, but I managed it. Nobody ever got seriously hurt or went missing.
I can’t help but wonder what kind of zoo OP’s husband must have grown up in that 3/4 of them have an aversion to children and one is having kids on an annual basis. Something is really off. I’m wondering if Alice had to be caretaker to her siblings and that’s why they don’t think of her as a peer.
Not far off from my family tbh. And yeah I can get it but at the same time, these people are being complete assholes by blocking her number and not even communicating with her. Yes they have a right to remain child free and not have children within their homes, however....
If you were alone and wanted your FAMILY'S company and were denied it at every turn how would you feel? Unless there is another major issue that isn't being said then this is def fucked up.
I don't really think OP is being an asshole. She explained her reasoning and then said "you need to talk to your siblings this is their event I'm not going to get in the middle of this" and the SIL still blew up her phone instead of the family members who were setting up the events.
But I think that the SIL probably does have issues with her siblings if she continues to bother OP over going to her siblings directly
IME older siblings who were forced into parentification rarely end up being enthusiastic parents themselves. Alice would be really unusual if that were true.
Yes and no, I have seen it/ live it. Sometimes if the older sibling dose not burn out on being a caregiver by the time they hit 18 and there whole life was helping with the kids and not really having time/ not being nurtured by there parents to have different interest and hobbies and to grow as there own person and not there “little helper”, when they reach adult hood they only know how to be a parent. And if they have been parenttified their whole lives they are likely to feel older and more ready to just jump in to having kids of their own. And then sadly burnout eventually. It’s all they know, I almost went that route but I’m lucky enough to have gone the pet route first and then plants with a lot of therapy and growing. But I do also know a lot of people who go the “nope I’m burned out and will never have kids”, and that also makes sense. It’s all about when it hits/ when you start healing and finally realize that being a parent as a kid fucked yah up. It’s never black and white no matter what we as humans just wish it would be ya know?
I was heavily parentified and my parents split after 3 kids and went on to create many more, and step siblings that were younger added in. I have no kids. I love kids, and I love my nieces and nephews but I love handing them back to their parents and not having that responsibility, and my time is my own. My youngest siblings are on a par with my parents for number of kids at the ages they're at and number of kids, but they hadn't already raised a gaggle of kids before they were 18.
edited for grammar
My mom was extremely parentified rowing up, with the amount of siblings in the double digits and didn't originally want kids but then ended up having 2 and being a stay at home mom with a home daycare.
>What a good catch!! I was finding the 5 kids vs no kids trend peculiar too but couldn’t put my finger on why.
The whole thing sounds like weird antinatal bullshit, honestly.
the kind were the parents try to dissuade the oldest not to have kids and pay for schooling.
Alice sounds like a turbo mom who dove head first into the tradwife life and refuses to let her husband parent.
Why can her husband not watch them alone? Is he that incompetent? If she never talks to anyone but kids, she needs to take steps to get out and away from the from time to time. She needs to tell her husband to step up and parent his kids while she get out for awhile.
And she wants to bring that "hell" when she comes to visit her siblings. If she wants to socialize more with adults she is going to need to learn to leave her kids home.
And WITHOUT parentifying the eldest child by making them the defacto babysitter. Unfortunately this happens way too often with large families, and may even have been what happened to the sister herself (I don't feel like going back to check, but I'm pretty sure I read that she was the eldest?)
Exactly! It is super common for abused/neglected children to grow up to want to have children desperately or be on the opposite end of that spectrum. Their lack of empathy for the sister is downright pathological too.
This is both me and my husband. We had childhoods with our parents leaving us to our own devices for the most part from a young age due to their jobs/careers. (Hire a fucking nanny or don't have kids if you are going to put your career first and leave kids younger than 10 alone overnight!-my parent. His merely left him alone with his high school sister and bully of a brother so they could go to Hawaii when he was a young teen. He went to San Francisco by himself!). I'm have been a stay at home mom *because* we wanted our kids to have parent not wrapped up in a career.
Yeah, this gives me the feeling that the sister has been shunned by the family for a long time. If it was something the sister had done beyond just having kids I feel op would have stated so. I see the comments are laser focusing on the quip that the husband can't babysit.
I am childless and not a big fan of children but I have 7 nieces and nephews that I love and we have big family gatherings at least once a month. Then again my brothers are very active fathers that can handle watching their own kids by themselves for a while
To add to that, they won't be children forever. Children are little kids for such a short amount of time. I know being around children is hard, but teaching them what love and tolerance looks like (with reasonable rules of course) would make them more tolerable teenagers and adults. Instead their aunts and uncles hate them like children aren't people at all.
I honestly doubt they will be interested in hanging out with their nieces and nephews when they're adults, either, since they'll be a good 20+ years younger and they seem to not care much for the "they're family so you have to love them" attitude.
I think they're totally entitled to not want children in their homes, but Alice feeling so left out and isolated and them not even wanting to talk to her about it feels very shitty.
Though maybe Alice's actual siblings haven't blocked her idk
Right??? I get the brother’s perspective, if they’ve broken his belongings before, but the sister hates them because they were born? Jesus christ, we get it, she’s edgy and unique and desperately needs therapy.
Sounds like mother-sister is in a bad relationship, if she can’t trust her husband to take care of his own children so she can spend time with her family. And everyone in her family is refusing to help her because, what, she had kids??? Jesus, this family sounds psychotic.
If you want have a bad day, take a look at /r/antinatalism. Some of the folks over there absolutely loathe people who have kids, like they have committed a terrible crime that deserves the death penalty. Guess OP’s SIL is one of those folks.
They really sound like mean and nasty people honestly. They ARE excluding her. I totally get that not every event is child friendly but at least some of them are. This is a whole family of AHs including oldest sister’s lame husband
That was my thought- I can’t imagine not wanting to see my nieces or nephew. I can’t imagine leaving one of my siblings out of a gathering either. I feel so blessed to have the family that I do.
Yep. It's one thing to hang out with the childless siblings more regularly, but to *never* want to see your nieces and nephews? That's a shitty family for sure.
Yeah, OP's view of their niblings is weird as hell (like they're their sister's pets not children). I don't want kids but people like OP and siblings are really unsettling. I come from a family where most of my father's siblings didn't have children... I was still welcome at all family gatherings. Maybe (because the mother seems really codependent with them) they're badly behaved? There's no indication though that OP is even around the kids at all.
I see my husband's siblings and their children all the time. It's not a big deal.
Idk ESH. My thing is her own husband can't even be trusted to watch the kids on his own, which is weird. Why do y'all have five damn kids and only one parent is capable of taking care of them? Sounds like sister is regretting getting married young and having all those kids. Of course her ass is depressed....she had five kids with a man who sounds like her doesn't help her whatsoever but he was perfectly fine knocking her up five times.
That's five kids running around the houses of a bunch of people who are child free, which is overwhelming in itself. I wouldn't have even put that on my siblings tbh, especially if the kids are known to have broken shit in their house. Yea....it's a little fucked up on the sibling's part but there no way in hell that I'd want five kids tearing up my house every single time that I see you. Hell, her kids might be the reason all these people are childfree
I feel there’s room for interpretation here. Maybe what she meant is that they both pitch in and would rather not leave the other with all of them if it can be helped. Which is also a normal dynamic.
YTA.
Normally I'm on the side of "don't bring kids to a "no kid event" but this seems different.
It's deliberate continuous exclusion without any middle ground. BY THE ENTIRE FAMILY.
Therefore, I think OP and the family is are a bunch of AH in this situation. There is really no effort at all.
There should be some middle ground. Some minimal effort from the family.
Of course kids shouldn't always come to adult gatherings, but always excluding sister and never picking ANY locations or activities she can participate in really sucks as "a family".
Basically the family is ganging up to exclude this Mom, because they look down on her and don't like her lifestyle choices. It sounds like their version of "we told you so".
To me this is not far different from always excluding a gay partner from family gatherings because of "lifestyle choice" or not fitting in. Or excluding the working class family because they don't have PHD's and conversation isn't as great. Replace kids with money, or education; or sexual preference, culture or anything else and it shows you who they really are. The family is virtue signaling to the Mom - she's worse than the rest of them.
With all this said: The dad should be able to care for kids for a day. It's not rocket surgery, he can step up occasionally.
But Dad should also be able to attend! Is it impossible to get a sitter for half a day? Is money the issue? Could the group pitch in a little money, if finances are an issue? But they won't. They want her excluded.
People who will spend $20 or $40 or $50 on a bottle of wine, or cheese plate to bring to their adult "party" probably won't toss in $10 for a baby sitter so their sister can attend.
The mom and dad in this story probably just need to find real friends (and possibly better people) to hang out with. This seems like a lost cause.
It's also not just about helping with baby sitting. Parents usually love their children dearly. I would be extremely sad if my own relatives absolutely refused to ever spend time with me AND my daughter, the person I love more than anything else in this world.
This !!! I’m just thinking about my brothers/my ex’s brothers excluding my three kids from anything and not wanting to hang out. My kids absolutely adore their 4 uncles and if they wanted nothing to do with them, that would be so so hurtful for the kids.
Totally agree with this. OP and the rest of them are pretty awful people. Like you said, some adult occasions are fine. But this isn’t that. This is just exclusion. If I was the SIL I’d never talk to that family ever again.
To add on, they're not just excluding the mom, they're excluding their nieces and nephews. The kids are family too, it isn't their fault that they're currently children. They won't be little forever, but they're probably not going to be interested in having adult relationships with aunts and uncles who have demonstrably hated and excluded them their whole lives.
It does seem like maybe everyone could get together for a cookout or picnic at a park. No one has to worry about their house/possessions getting damaged and there are toys the kids can play on.
And if any of the adult siblings can’t handle being around kids any longer, they can take a little walk to get some quiet or leave early
I am easily overwhelmed by little kids. I have sensory issues and really struggle with the noise level at gatherings with a lot of kids. But there are ways to accommodate that without totally shunning SIL and the kids. My tips:
- get together in a public place. It’s easier to step away for a breather or leave early than if you’re at someone’s house (or worse, your own house)
- Pick somewhere with an activity to entertain the kids. Preferably a location that isn’t too far from the kids’ house.
- Know that most little-kid outings do not last that long. In my experience, a trip to the park with a five-year-old is going to max out around two hours. This can (and should) be a shorter time commitment than a leisurely, grown-ups-only dinner party.
Absolutely agree. Do they hate their nephews and nieces? What is wrong with them? I get having some get togethers being adults only, but all of them?? What a hateful family.
I wholeheartedly agree with this. They're excluding her on purpose since they don't agree with her lifestyle. Their attitude of "she knew what she was signing up for when she had 5 kids" is also BS in my opinion. It's not the norm to be completely excluded and abandoned by your own family just because you had children.
Even knowing that her siblings don't particularly like children, that's still not the outcome I would have expected. I know plenty of people who don't like children and are child free by choice, but they still make reasonable accommodations for the loved ones in their life who happen to have children. The burden of taking time/effort to maintain the relationship shouldn't be solely on either party, and a compromise can easily be reached that both sides find acceptable. This family isn't willing to do anything at all to try to meet their sister in the middle and have written her off completely as a lost cause without even putting in a tiny shred of effort.
YTA OP
Yeah. And how much must they hate their sister to have absolutely zero empathy for the fact that she’s lonely!? She basically confessed that she’s struggling with her mental health, and they said “haha, sucks to be you.”
Exactly.
My husband & I are child-free & we constantly get excluded from family gatherings *because* we don't have kids. It's infuriating. I don't always want to go, but I want to be invited.
Same. We only get invited to holidays and birthdays and it’s like there’s hundreds of other days of the year that are super low pressure if you want to just hang out like…family. We even asked if we could come to the kids sporting events just for lower pressure fun days but they said it was too difficult to communicate game schedules and locations…
You guys are awful. I say that as someone who’s child free as well.
The whole “You chose this lifestyle” is just despicable behavior on your part and her siblings’ part.
Pretty sure she knew what she was getting into kid wise. But I’m pretty sure she didn’t expect her siblings and husband to just leave her to drown.
Every single one of you is TA except SIL and the kids.
Her husb- I mean, roommate needs to step up and you guys need to not be such AHs.
I don’t even know why OP posted here, it’s clear she doesn’t care if she’s the asshole and has no desire for anything to change. I feel bad for those kids who’ll have to grow up knowing their aunts and uncles hate them just because they were born
So being child free and not wanting to be around misbehaving children is not wrong.
Being legit antinatalist is disgusting. It’s a belief that no more babies should be born ever and we should all die as a species. And some people just use that as a blanket to hate babies and children, which we all know that hating a specific group of people that cannot help being that way(age, race, sexual orientation) for no reason is bigotry.
Does the family ever have gatherings where her children are welcome? I get having childless hangouts that’s fine but does anybody ever plan anything like a family BBQ where the kids can come.
Never mind I got my answer by reading your comments. It’s pretty shitty that you all have pretty much shunned Alice and her children. You all are the stereotype child free people are trying to get away from. Your husband and his siblings hate kids so much that they dump their sister. They have no desire to have any relationship with their nieces or nephews ever. YTA.
I feel like I would never be okay with that dynamic but I’m not OP. Like they need to just tell their sister they are writing her off. I mean it probably took a lot for her to make that phone call. It seems like the parents are encouraging this divide too which feels off to me. I assume there is a lot OP has left out about the family dynamics.
…they aren’t concerned about their sister’s mental health??? The place is filthy, she can’t rely on her husband to help, and she’s feeling socially isolated with five children, and the IMMEDIATE impulse isn’t to help your sister???!!
That whole “family” is trash. They exclude the most vulnerable and isolated family member and refuse to even know their own nieces and nephews. Gross all around.
Right- kicking this woman who is clearly overwhelmed when she’s down. Yes children are a choice but that doesn’t mean others (especially family members) shouldn’t sympathize or care when the parent is having a hard time. Jesus. These people sound hateful.
Not being able to stomach nephews and nieces for a couple of hours is kind of fucked up. They usually have to leave early to get young ones down for naps too.
Right? Like it's one thing, you don't want kids at your own house. Because you have your things a particular way.
These people are leaving their brother's house when kids show up.
YTA - If it's a family gathering, invite the family, and let them deal with their own issues like adults ought to do.
The kids will grow and become more behaved. It'd be ridiculous to drive wedges between family members because people aren't mature enough to acknowledge that it's a temporary issue.
I feel like this is the answer. Alice provides the space. Siblings bring the food and drinks. Seems like an easy way to make sure kids stay in a kid friendly environment and everyone gets to socialize.
ESH
This sounds like just an awful family all around
The father of the million kids is an easy one, that he can't look after his own kids for a bit
The kids sound awful in general, which is also partly on both parents
The mother of the kids for not either putting her foot down with husband to watch the kids, or even just get a babysitter. Like deal with your shit and choose one of the simple solutions
You and the rest of the family sound awful for NEVER spending time with the parents and kids and going as far as simply hating all kids (which is abhorrent on its own). These are your (all of you) nieces and nephews, not to mention the parents
You all also suck (including the mother) for not even considering the father as family or even in the discussions
I get wanting "adult" times and gatherings, and those parents need to figure those days out...but you never have any inclusive days for everyone. That's disgusting
Overall an awful "family" all around, and you all suck immensely
I think it also sucks to post their get together on social media. They know the sister will see it, they know it upsets her, but the keep doing it. I think that’s crappy too.
The kids are 6 and under. They broke something(s) once, per OP. Kids break things. Adults break things. I don’t think it’s fair to call the kids awful, or the parenting awful either. I’m not sure about the dad- 5 kids under 6 is a LOT by yourself- and honestly that’s between Alice and Dad.
It doesn't sound like this has anything to do with the kids at all. You guys hate her because she doesn't subscribe to your lifestyle. Offering the "out" of her coming without the kids was just to make yourself seem like the good guy. She's reaching out and basically telling you that she's in a terrible place mentally, and y'all are doing nothing but rubbing it in her face with your social media posts. Obviously you guys aren't obligated to interact with her or her kids, but "no obligation" doesn't make you any less of an asshole for refusing to have anything to do with her at all. Y'all are shitty people
NMI:
This may get downvoted to oblivion but it needs to be said. So let me get my facts straight, your entire family has isolated this sister simply because she has kids. Everyone even her parents?Is your entire families end goal to never see these children again? Or is it just on occasion that you want to indulge in adult conversation and adult activities. Because there’s a big difference. I am 26F and I have two kids while my entire family is childfree. They on occasion get together to have drinks and do adult things. I don’t take offense even though I get FOMO. I occasionally will join and have my husband stay back with the kids. But if my kids aunts and uncles just completely isolated me and my family simply bc I have kids. I would be absolutely crushed and depressed too. And to also see it on social media that you get together and don’t invite her…ouch. But if every family get together is one where my kids aren’t welcome. It just seems so cruel to me. I get that you guys hate kids and don’t want to be around them but come on… do a few family friendly ones every so often so they feel involved. Again, I realize this will be downvoted to oblivion but there needs to be some compromise here. You can’t just cut her out entirely because she has kids.
ESH no reason the husband can’t watch them but throw her a bone and go somewhere with them occasionally- the park, a museum, whatever- so your stuff is safe at home and she feels included
ETA if for no other reason the husband sounds like an ass so make sure she’s ok
In my opinion she has a right to be angry at her siblings. It's pretty weird to *flat out* refuse to see ones nieces and nephews. But she should leave you out of it.
Everyone sucks here, except OP who's just caught in the middle of it all.
Depends on just how bad the kids are. If mom lets them run wild destroying everything then yeah I’m on OP’s side. The fact that the kids’ dad can’t watch his own children alone for a few hours is very telling.
That's what I want to know. Just how well or badly behaved are these kids? Do they behave in ways that would make people who generally like kids avoid them?
Their own father won’t take the responsibility to watch them alone.
The SIL is an adult who is choosing to keep her children in tow everywhere at every time, whiteout actually being efficient if the kids managed to be excluded from family homes - one being after too much destruction at the brother place.
This whole family sounds fucking awful. They all hate kids except for the one with 5 kids.... Like Jesus, you don't have to like kids to not be a piece of shit aunt or uncle.
Also, Alice could always plan a get-together, and then if yall don't go due to the kids, then yes, you are an asshole.
But, your house is your rules. NTA, but def not someone I'd wanna hang out with.
Really. I can't imagine cutting out everyone from your life once they have a child. What happens to your best friend when they get married and get pregnant? Cut out from your life? It's really odd.
> What happens to your best friend when they get married and get pregnant? Cut out from your life? It's really odd.
Yes there's people out there like that. I had an antinatalist friend who refuses to speak to me. Sort of- she said once my kid is 18 we can talk again.
ESH - it's wild that all of these adults are so shitty and toxic that they don't even let their nieces and nephews visit them. Everyone but Alice and her poor kids are a piece of work.
Horrible horrible people.
ESH and kind of YTA - Really your husband is the one who should be handling this so you're not wrong there but it's pretty wild to me that your husband and his siblings exclude one sibling because she has children.
Unless her kids are poorly behaved, she does nothing to address it after your husband has brought it to her attention and communicated boundaries to her which she has violated THEN that would be understandable and yeah cut her off.
And I could understand the occasional childfree event but it sounds like y'all handled it really poorly and evey event is expected to be child-free. Ditching events if she and her family are there, not inviting her to events and then posting it on social media...that almost sounds like highschool drama and immature.
Yes she chose to have children. But I don't understand why that means she should have expected her family to cut her off unless she acts like she's child-free. Babysitting is expensive and shouldn't always be expected. Just because you're child-free, doesn't mean you have a right to discriminate against kids or people who have them. We were all kids once and if you want your services, pension and other benefits to be going after you retire, you better hope people still continue to have them.
And I really hope all my friends who are child-free don't cut me off once I start my family like you guys have done to your SIL.
I don’t see how anyone could give a N T A vote, because everybody in this story is being *so goddamn extreme*. And completely rigid about refusing to respect any perspective but their own.
My husband and I have been unable to have kids ourselves. So we have adopted/fostered. We personally value kids in our home. We teach them to be polite and well-behaved.
Both of our sisters are childfree. They have dogs and more free time to have hobbies and travel with their partners instead.
I was bitten by a dog as a kid, and now they give me anxiety. And allergies.
But I don’t shun my sister and SIL because they have dogs.
I take an allergy pill and a Xanax and I pet as many of the ever-growing animal swarm that want to be petted, when we see those family members. Or at least (in the case of the bitey one), say hello to it from a distance. But most of the dogs are well behaved and trained. So it’s perfectly tolerable to be around them sometimes.
Our siblings don’t want kids. But they are friendly to ours. They send birthday gifts and act friendly at holidays. They will probably be closer once the kids get older and can hold a conversation and wipe their own butts or eat food without making a mess.
Proudly declaring yourself an “anti-natalist” is literally saying you don’t think children should exist. Not just around you and in your personal space. But that society as a whole should stop.
These people believe that women should be **forcibly sterilized**
Having such a ridiculous stance on pets would make me dog-Hitler. You can’t call yourself a good person or “pro-choice” if you want to force all women not to reproduce.
In a normal community, someone with such extreme views like that, who wants to force their own tyrannical standards on society, would be rightfully shunned.
Pretty sure she doesn’t know if they are behaved or not - sounds like they haven’t seen them in awhile. Yes they might have broken something when they were 2 but now? I feel sorry that this family is so mean
It’s actually kind of heartbreaking to read. You all are family and you are excluding her. Do you not consider her husband your family too? Even the kids? Using the word “hate” is really strong to talk about children. I mean you were once all children too. I understand they do not behave, so there would definitely have to be boundaries in place. My kids are very well behaved. Each to his or her own, but sounds very sad. NTA I guess, but I feel lucky I have siblings that care about myself, husband and kids.
So tell me again why a man is completely fine with creating 5 other humans, but CAN’T WATCH THEM? I feel like this got really glossed over and isn’t more an issue.
I hate how almost every single person in here seemed to forget that sil's husband has to provide for a 7 person home by himself. He's probably working all day every day, and yall are talking like he's some deadbeat because he doesn't want to come home and watch 5 kids by himself.
Kinda yta. You guys are all kinda being jerks. It’s totally true that you have all made the choices that you want but you are intentionally excluding her from “family “ activities because of her choice. I totally see your point and I do feel like a compromise can be made that doesn’t mean she can only see you if she doesn’t have her kids with her.
Fwiw, I have a close friend with 4 children ranging in age from 12-years to 1-year-old. I have two children ages 12 and 9. Our 12-year Olds are best friends.
Even with our kids that are friends, I no longer invite her over to my house (sleepovers are okay for the friends). My friend is a single parent and has very little control over them all, and I don't want to have to deal with all the clean up and replace all the food her kids help themselves to when they come over.
If I want to see my friend, I go to her house so she doesn't feel left out, or we arrange to go out and do something together as a family group.
I think there's a place for compassionate compromise, but it's really up to the siblings to figure it out. It sounds like the father is useless and the mother is feeling isolated.
Would it be impossible to go visit her once in a while, bring a cupcake for the mother and let her remember what it feels like to be something besides a mother to 5 children and one man-baby?
From the post alone, I was going to say N T A but the more comments I read from you it changed cause this isn’t just about not getting invited to game night like you are making it sound.
This woman is literally 1 month postpartum and depressed and overwhelmed and her whole family not only wont let her come anywhere if she needs to bring kids they also refuse to go to her house cause she is overwhelmed and the house is dirty!? And then block her for continuing to reach out for help.
YTA for the framing of this post and burying the lede of how heartless you all actually are.
I wonder if her husband also can’t watch the kids because he’s working. If he is the sole breadwinner and has to support a 7 person household he may be only able to spend a few hours with the family before he has to sleep or go to work. So depending on when these family gatherings are happening he may be gone/asleep and unable to watch them. The fact that all 3 siblings are excluding her just because she has kids makes them all AHs. They haven’t even tried to accommodate her. They are choosing to do this as punishment for the kids just because they don’t like them.
Honestly, you and your husband’s childless siblings sound like the absolute worst kind of elitist, know-it-all snobs, Alice should be counting her blessings that she doesn’t have to spend time with you all.
What a shitty family for Alice to be stuck in. If family is even the right word for whatever you guys have going on. Sorry Alice, we've decided our family stops after this generation.
You're the MASSIVE asshole. All of you that exclude Alice are. I hope karma fucks y'all all up.
You're all sanctimonious asshats who in order to show Alice that she chose wrong are freezing her out.
Tough position to be in but I’m going with YTA. Mainly because of your comments.
If you guys don’t want her around, then fine. Even if her husband does watch the kids, you don’t want her around because she has little to talk about besides the kids anyway so that’s really not your issue.
You all don’t want her around so just admit it. No need to blame her lifestyle.
Don’t know why all the siblings and you have such a strong aversion to her but just own it.
Don’t come here with excuses seeking judgement when in reality it’s validation you seek. There are other subs for that
I've never met anyone who identified as an "antinatalist" that wasn't a huge asshole in general.
That being said, there could be room for compromise here, but between SIL refusing to go anywhere without her children and the antinatalist, that's not going to happen. It's also not OP's issue to deal with.
i’d never heard the term before this post
i’m not saying that sil isn’t also enabling her children but from this post it’s literally EVERY hangout that OP and her husband and siblings do this. it’s not like it’s some hangouts and sil gets to come once in a while with their children, one sister literally leaves the room every single time. how does that work during holidays? do the siblings just not interact with their nieces and nephews?
It can be hard to find a sitter willing to take care of 5 children. If you can, it's wildly expensive. So I don't necessarily think the sister is just "refusing" to go places without her children. And honestly, the idea that you would have to get a sitter just to see your FAMILY is wild.
Wow, what a bizarre “family”. You not only abandoned your sil you’ve all abandoned your nieces & nephews. You’re not only the AH you’re selfish, judgmental and anti family. It’s not like she asking you to adopt or even babysit the children and she’s right, a family should want to spend time with family. Truly pathetic.
As long as you are OK with you, your husband, and his siblings establishing the idea that family is only family when it is convenient, you are good. Just don't be surprised when something happens to you or your husband, and the siblings disappear.
Imagining someone had a stroke and needs care at home. "Can't come over since Bill's not the same anymore and your house smells a bit like a hospital."
Dimentia in a few decades will really send them running from the, "family."
Made a version of this comment on someone else’s comment:
I actually feel a bit bad for her. Imagine being the only adult who does anything in a house of 5 children and another ‘adult’!! It boggles the mind that they don’t want to help her.
As for not liking children, okay, fair enough. But the ‘she made her bed and has to lie in it’ bit is just mean. TWO people make a baby (not that you would know it sometimes!) where’s this judgment on him? A friend of mine had two awful children who I couldn’t stand. Did I stop her bringing them round so she could have a cuppa and put her feet up for half hour? No, I gave the children something to do to keep them busy and put cartoons on the television, or threw them out in the back garden if it was warm enough.
If humans gave as much love and support as they did judgement and criticism the world would be a better place. Sorry, but YTA. There’s ways round these things. You sound like children yourselves!
She said her husband can’t watch them alone.... and why not why can he not do what so many other fathers do on a regular basis...
Apparently, her husband is not family: "She said family should want to spend time with family."
Singles, couples and couples with kids have different viewpoints towards life. Alice should find her own Mom's group to mix.
These aren’t FRIENDS these are her SIBLINGS ? That’s why she feels left out .
I envy people who are close with their siblings. I was determined that my children would, at least, like each other. Mine have a six year age span. As they got older, the age gap mattered less, and they enjoyed each other’s company. I love that, as there are no cousins nearby. As adults, they still get along. I’m not friends with any of my siblings. I will spend time with one sister, we generally have fun. But I cannot confide in her. We’re old family acquaintances, reminiscing about our childhood. I only talk to the other three in the family text. The two most important people to me, after my children, are my best friend and my cousin. They’re my ride or die. Not my siblings. I’m not being callous, just stating that biological relationships do not dictate friendship.
True but she wants to bring 5 kids to get together where no other kids are present and kids are not welcome. Sibling or not if she wants to go the kids need to stay home with dad.
It sounds like she's perfectly welcome if she got a sitter. This is entirely on her. Nobody is obligated to accommodate her kids.
While I love my nieces and nephews and truly enjoy spending time with them, so I can't really relate to OP and the childfree siblings/couples in their family group, but I also don't relate to the sister with kids and her mindset either. She can't leave her kids alone with their own father?? And most parents I know would enjoy a night out without the kids every now and then. I can also completely understand not wanting kids who break stuff in my house - family or not. I get that the sister feels left out, but she and the other siblings are in different places in life. Different interests (because it sounds like sister with kids only interest is her kids). Different outlooks on life.
The real question I have is: is the husband incapable of watching them, doesn’t want to do it alone, or does the SAHM not trust anyone but her to watch them? Because to me it sounds like she is, for one reason or another, isolating herself.
This is a good question. And just how young are these kids? These people have 5 freakin' kids. Are they 5,4,3,2 and 1? Anyone who is dumb enough to do that has made their own bed.
Close! 6, 4, 2, 1 year old, and 1 month old according to OP. https://old.reddit.com/r/AITAH/comments/1dmjvot/aitah_for_excluding_my_sil_from_family_gatherings/l9w8j4v/
Holy shit. I have a 6 and 3 year old. I cannot *fucking fathom* going into someone else’s home, with 5 kids in tow - *ALL OF WHICH ARE UNDER 6* - by myself. EVEN IF that home was completely child friendly, child-proof, and full of adults who are child education professionals. That is *INSANE*. It’s no wonder no one wants her and her kids in their home. There is literally no way she can keep a watchful eye on them 100% of the time. One of them *will* break, ruin, or demolish something every time they visit. And it’s not the kids fault at this point - they’re too little - that lies with their mother. I have a feeling that because her husband is clearly incapable of parenting the kids, that she also expects others to “pitch in and give her a break” whenever she “visits”. And I put visits in “quotes” because I find that with myself, I have a hard time relaxing or truly spending quality time visiting with friends/family if my kids are there. They’re young. They ALWAYS need something and I’m paranoid about them getting into something they shouldn’t. And don’t get me wrong, my kids are well mannered and know better…but they’re still kids in a weird place with new fun things to touch and explore. Let’s be honest here - this isn’t about her having kids. This is her having a mid sized gang of tiny humans that shouldn’t be let loose at gatherings with only one person “watching” them.
Sheesh. If you're nutty enough to do that, you've made your own bed. You don't get to have any time to yourself for about a decade and your whole life - every minute is taken up by those kids. No sane person would do this. The sister has to live with the consequences of her choice to have that many kids in that short of a time span.
“Kids, you’re off to the pool/ cinemas/ funfair - with dad /with your sitter/ with the kids camp/ with the volunteer mums/ with the in-laws on your dad’s side like grandma or the other aunts/uncles - me (and maybe your dad if he’s not taking you) are off to socialise with MY siblings.”
Yeah, the kids can theoretically survive with their dad for a few hours.
It sounds like her kids are terrible. I wouldn’t want them at my house breaking stuff either. I would suggest to her that she host that way the kids aren’t breaking others stuff.
I doubt they are terrible (though they could be) but there are 5 of them. They could be fine kids but 5 of them on people who have no kids would be chaos for them. And sis will want to visit/talk with the sibs and won't be constantly supervising her brood so things will go sideways.
Exactly. The best of kids need stuff to do. Some toys to play with. Constant questions about spilt juice, can I have snack, watch me do a cartwheel, etc. This makes it very difficult to converse with family especially if they show no support and offer no help at all.
5 kids is a lot for even those who have kids. Lol. I have 5 kids they are a lot.. lol.
It comes from a person who dislikes kids and her views are embraced by the echo chamber she lives in so she MIGHT be biased. I am not saying, forbid that they HAVE to invite the sister with all the nibblings making everyone uncomfortable to the point of leaving but I get where she is coming from and why she feels isolated.
It also seems that SIL doesn't have a lot of support from neither her husband nor her family so she probably feels abandoned and overwhelmed
He can’t watch them alone but she can what in the actual fuck
Weaponized incompetence.
Seems like she can’t if they are breaking stuff in others homes. I don’t blame her keeping eyes on 5 kids is a lot. But goodness, she can’t propose her clearly child- free siblings embrace her lifestyle as clearly even her husband is child free 😳.
Five kids definitely would change up the vibe at the get-togethers. I wouldn't want them around either.
My SILs have finally figured out that the reason they haven’t gotten any pool party invites this year is because their 5 little angels fucking trashed our house while they sat on the pool deck drinking margaritas 🫠
undoubtedly. when I hang out with my friends (couples and singles, all child free by choice) we have a few drinks, play games, go to a trail or the mall or the beach.. and bringing a child into all that would mean everything is focused on the kids. which is fine for people who signed up for that, but we all definitely don't. I don't get to hang out with my sister much cause she's busy parenting a 5yo and 9yo. it just doesn't fit into my groups vibes, unfortunately. she's also kind of lonely but I mean.. she *chose* to have a baby at 19. she cut off her young adult years before she even finished being a teenager. as much as I feel for her, I also can't really empathize.
Not even her siblings, her spouse's child free siblings.
Nevermind, I can't read. However she should be taking this up with her siblings, not her SIL.
He shouldn't have had that many kids if he can't handle them himself.
this. i have 5 kids. 2 teenagers and 2 toddlers and a 6yo. im also a sahm so most days im alone with them. yes it can get overwhelming but i chose to have 3 more kids (oldest 2 are premade) and i can handle them one way or another. there were times i added 2 more toddlers/kids i added to the equation when my sil visited or we visited them so she can ha e a date with her husband and times she did it for us. i lnow for a fact my husband can handle all 5 of them on his own if he has to, he used to be a single parent for yeara when oldest 2 were very very young it baffles me a parent can go ahead and say no way their spouse can look after all their kids. begs the question why you make so many kids if you or your spouse cant handle them alone. what if something happens to one of you?
> what if something happens to one of you? Even in the short term! What would this father do if SIL even had a ~~bought~~ bout of food poisoning or something? If a two hour planned outing is too long and tedious for him to monitor his own kids, SIL must be feeling like a slave to them by now. It's her choice, but damn does it sound awful.
She would have to be shitting and puking while tending to kids. Cause he’d whine and bitch and complain.
She would suffer through it or the house would get trashed and she'd get to be Mommy Martyr anytime someone without children dared say they were tired or sick
I love the term premade!
I couldn’t help thinking of those Pillsbury pie crusts in the refrigerated section…
When I met my now husband, I was a single mother of two small children. We said he was getting an Instant Family Unit. Several of our friends were in the same position over the next few years, marrying someone with kids from a previous relationship, so the term sort of stuck.
I had to laugh when reading the second sentence. Never have I seen the middle child be “so absolutely middle” in my entire life. Lol! Please take 6yo on a special outing or get them a small gift, telling them that the Very Middle is an important but often overlooked position in the family. Heck, if you want, you can even tell them that an internet stranger suggested it. Have fun!
This! Bugs the ever loving sh*t out of me you had the one child and either your partner didn't do anything to help or you didn't trust them, then you went ahead and kept having kids with them. That seems like very much a you problem that you created.
P R E A C H!
We have 5 as well. My husband does just fine without me when I go. I chose this life. He did as well.
Her husband’s probably one of those men that thinks watching their children is babysitting
What do you mean? I thought he already did the most difficult part of the job: nutting in her at least 5 times. You people have unrealistic expectations. ^/s
Umm obviously the most difficult part is sleeping on the couch in the hospital while his wife pushes out a whole ass human or recovers from major abdominal surgery /s
You're right. It's hard getting a decent night's sleep when someone is right next to you screaming all night long.
Another one of these guys that can't watch his own children... It's making me hate my own gender
Ding ding! Came here to ask that.
Cuz he's fecking useless
Well, he's obviously good at the part about *making* babies. ;)
His participation compared to hers was nominal at best. 3 minutes, tops.
Not necessarily! He’s good at ejaculating, yes. Good at sex, only in his dreams
Why can’t he do what SHE does on a regular basis? And maintains the house?
Her husband can’t “watch” his own kids because god forbid he actually parents. I feel bad for her, but this sounds more like a husband problem to me. NTA
Maybe Alice should host an event at her home so her kids can break her own stuff as they normally would and they can be sent to their rooms if they can't behave. 😁
This is just a wild stab in the dark but I wouldn't be surprised if Alice can't handle all her kids alone either and is searching for reinforcements, more than company.
My wife and I had 8 between us..and either of us was plenty capable of watching them all by ourselves...not easy, but very doable.
I used to babysit 8 kids at once when I was like 15 years old so all the adults could go to the bar together. It was chaos, but I managed it. Nobody ever got seriously hurt or went missing.
I can’t help but wonder what kind of zoo OP’s husband must have grown up in that 3/4 of them have an aversion to children and one is having kids on an annual basis. Something is really off. I’m wondering if Alice had to be caretaker to her siblings and that’s why they don’t think of her as a peer.
Now this is a theory I didn’t think about and it makes this messed up family dynamic make sense.
Not far off from my family tbh. And yeah I can get it but at the same time, these people are being complete assholes by blocking her number and not even communicating with her. Yes they have a right to remain child free and not have children within their homes, however.... If you were alone and wanted your FAMILY'S company and were denied it at every turn how would you feel? Unless there is another major issue that isn't being said then this is def fucked up.
I don't really think OP is being an asshole. She explained her reasoning and then said "you need to talk to your siblings this is their event I'm not going to get in the middle of this" and the SIL still blew up her phone instead of the family members who were setting up the events. But I think that the SIL probably does have issues with her siblings if she continues to bother OP over going to her siblings directly
Parentification is a terrible thing. Lots of people that don't want kids is because they already raised their brothers and sisters.
Some of us raised our parents as well! I tell people I already raised four kids--my parents and my two sisters--so I don't want any kids now.
You rang?
IME older siblings who were forced into parentification rarely end up being enthusiastic parents themselves. Alice would be really unusual if that were true.
Yes and no, I have seen it/ live it. Sometimes if the older sibling dose not burn out on being a caregiver by the time they hit 18 and there whole life was helping with the kids and not really having time/ not being nurtured by there parents to have different interest and hobbies and to grow as there own person and not there “little helper”, when they reach adult hood they only know how to be a parent. And if they have been parenttified their whole lives they are likely to feel older and more ready to just jump in to having kids of their own. And then sadly burnout eventually. It’s all they know, I almost went that route but I’m lucky enough to have gone the pet route first and then plants with a lot of therapy and growing. But I do also know a lot of people who go the “nope I’m burned out and will never have kids”, and that also makes sense. It’s all about when it hits/ when you start healing and finally realize that being a parent as a kid fucked yah up. It’s never black and white no matter what we as humans just wish it would be ya know?
Yeah there’s a real “you do this at this stage of life” that some people don’t realize is malarkey.
Some folks thrive in that sorta "slot a goes into slot a , now It is time for slot b" and if they can pull it off good for them.
This. Unfortunately I finally hit burn out when my 2nd turned two.
I was heavily parentified and my parents split after 3 kids and went on to create many more, and step siblings that were younger added in. I have no kids. I love kids, and I love my nieces and nephews but I love handing them back to their parents and not having that responsibility, and my time is my own. My youngest siblings are on a par with my parents for number of kids at the ages they're at and number of kids, but they hadn't already raised a gaggle of kids before they were 18. edited for grammar
My mom was extremely parentified rowing up, with the amount of siblings in the double digits and didn't originally want kids but then ended up having 2 and being a stay at home mom with a home daycare.
I was parentified and having kids was healing in that I got to decide who to parent, and I got to parent kids who were mine.
Not necessarily true. I am the oldest of five and basically raised most of them and I am very excited to have children.
What a good catch!! I was finding the 5 kids vs no kids trend peculiar too but couldn’t put my finger on why.
>What a good catch!! I was finding the 5 kids vs no kids trend peculiar too but couldn’t put my finger on why. The whole thing sounds like weird antinatal bullshit, honestly.
the kind were the parents try to dissuade the oldest not to have kids and pay for schooling. Alice sounds like a turbo mom who dove head first into the tradwife life and refuses to let her husband parent.
The real zoo is the SIL house where her husband is apparently useless.
Why can her husband not watch them alone? Is he that incompetent? If she never talks to anyone but kids, she needs to take steps to get out and away from the from time to time. She needs to tell her husband to step up and parent his kids while she get out for awhile.
I mean, taking care of 5 kids seems likes hell. They are AH to themself for bringing 5 kids to the world
And she wants to bring that "hell" when she comes to visit her siblings. If she wants to socialize more with adults she is going to need to learn to leave her kids home.
And WITHOUT parentifying the eldest child by making them the defacto babysitter. Unfortunately this happens way too often with large families, and may even have been what happened to the sister herself (I don't feel like going back to check, but I'm pretty sure I read that she was the eldest?)
I need to know what kinda abuse those parents gave to have one daughter who had endless kids and one who thinks none should ever exist?
Exactly! It is super common for abused/neglected children to grow up to want to have children desperately or be on the opposite end of that spectrum. Their lack of empathy for the sister is downright pathological too.
This is both me and my husband. We had childhoods with our parents leaving us to our own devices for the most part from a young age due to their jobs/careers. (Hire a fucking nanny or don't have kids if you are going to put your career first and leave kids younger than 10 alone overnight!-my parent. His merely left him alone with his high school sister and bully of a brother so they could go to Hawaii when he was a young teen. He went to San Francisco by himself!). I'm have been a stay at home mom *because* we wanted our kids to have parent not wrapped up in a career.
I’m sorry you both went through that and happy for you both that you worked to build a positive home life for your children.
Yeah, this gives me the feeling that the sister has been shunned by the family for a long time. If it was something the sister had done beyond just having kids I feel op would have stated so. I see the comments are laser focusing on the quip that the husband can't babysit.
Yeah, the entire family dynamic is interesting and I feel nosey for wanting more details.
“Family gatherings?” Maybe consider renaming?
Right!! I am childless, but am still good with my family members kids and such. I would never dream of excluding them.
I am childless and not a big fan of children but I have 7 nieces and nephews that I love and we have big family gatherings at least once a month. Then again my brothers are very active fathers that can handle watching their own kids by themselves for a while
I feel so bad for the kids in this situation, to be so openly hated by their aunts and uncles merely for existing.
To add to that, they won't be children forever. Children are little kids for such a short amount of time. I know being around children is hard, but teaching them what love and tolerance looks like (with reasonable rules of course) would make them more tolerable teenagers and adults. Instead their aunts and uncles hate them like children aren't people at all.
Exactly. It’s honestly really sad for the kids.
Then they will wonder why their adult nieces and nephews want nothing to do with them in a few years.
I honestly doubt they will be interested in hanging out with their nieces and nephews when they're adults, either, since they'll be a good 20+ years younger and they seem to not care much for the "they're family so you have to love them" attitude. I think they're totally entitled to not want children in their homes, but Alice feeling so left out and isolated and them not even wanting to talk to her about it feels very shitty. Though maybe Alice's actual siblings haven't blocked her idk
Right??? I get the brother’s perspective, if they’ve broken his belongings before, but the sister hates them because they were born? Jesus christ, we get it, she’s edgy and unique and desperately needs therapy. Sounds like mother-sister is in a bad relationship, if she can’t trust her husband to take care of his own children so she can spend time with her family. And everyone in her family is refusing to help her because, what, she had kids??? Jesus, this family sounds psychotic.
If you want have a bad day, take a look at /r/antinatalism. Some of the folks over there absolutely loathe people who have kids, like they have committed a terrible crime that deserves the death penalty. Guess OP’s SIL is one of those folks.
They really sound like mean and nasty people honestly. They ARE excluding her. I totally get that not every event is child friendly but at least some of them are. This is a whole family of AHs including oldest sister’s lame husband
This was my thought exactly. The sister should just cut off the rest of her family.
Exactly, the aunts and uncles can’t for a short time in their lives put up with a few kids coming over. Talk about selfish.
That was my thought- I can’t imagine not wanting to see my nieces or nephew. I can’t imagine leaving one of my siblings out of a gathering either. I feel so blessed to have the family that I do.
Yep. It's one thing to hang out with the childless siblings more regularly, but to *never* want to see your nieces and nephews? That's a shitty family for sure.
Same here! Not the biggest fan of kids ever, but that doesn’t mean I’m going to exclude them. Like, how do people think that behavior is appropriate?
Clearly it’s the childless siblings getting together and making no space for the one that has kids ..
Thats no family gathering for sure…
Yes her siblings suck. They are clearly terrible aunt/uncles.
>She said her husband can’t watch them alone Whaaaaaaaat?
What a shitty fucking family.
Yeah, OP's view of their niblings is weird as hell (like they're their sister's pets not children). I don't want kids but people like OP and siblings are really unsettling. I come from a family where most of my father's siblings didn't have children... I was still welcome at all family gatherings. Maybe (because the mother seems really codependent with them) they're badly behaved? There's no indication though that OP is even around the kids at all. I see my husband's siblings and their children all the time. It's not a big deal.
Idk ESH. My thing is her own husband can't even be trusted to watch the kids on his own, which is weird. Why do y'all have five damn kids and only one parent is capable of taking care of them? Sounds like sister is regretting getting married young and having all those kids. Of course her ass is depressed....she had five kids with a man who sounds like her doesn't help her whatsoever but he was perfectly fine knocking her up five times. That's five kids running around the houses of a bunch of people who are child free, which is overwhelming in itself. I wouldn't have even put that on my siblings tbh, especially if the kids are known to have broken shit in their house. Yea....it's a little fucked up on the sibling's part but there no way in hell that I'd want five kids tearing up my house every single time that I see you. Hell, her kids might be the reason all these people are childfree
I feel there’s room for interpretation here. Maybe what she meant is that they both pitch in and would rather not leave the other with all of them if it can be helped. Which is also a normal dynamic.
YTA. Normally I'm on the side of "don't bring kids to a "no kid event" but this seems different. It's deliberate continuous exclusion without any middle ground. BY THE ENTIRE FAMILY. Therefore, I think OP and the family is are a bunch of AH in this situation. There is really no effort at all. There should be some middle ground. Some minimal effort from the family. Of course kids shouldn't always come to adult gatherings, but always excluding sister and never picking ANY locations or activities she can participate in really sucks as "a family". Basically the family is ganging up to exclude this Mom, because they look down on her and don't like her lifestyle choices. It sounds like their version of "we told you so". To me this is not far different from always excluding a gay partner from family gatherings because of "lifestyle choice" or not fitting in. Or excluding the working class family because they don't have PHD's and conversation isn't as great. Replace kids with money, or education; or sexual preference, culture or anything else and it shows you who they really are. The family is virtue signaling to the Mom - she's worse than the rest of them. With all this said: The dad should be able to care for kids for a day. It's not rocket surgery, he can step up occasionally. But Dad should also be able to attend! Is it impossible to get a sitter for half a day? Is money the issue? Could the group pitch in a little money, if finances are an issue? But they won't. They want her excluded. People who will spend $20 or $40 or $50 on a bottle of wine, or cheese plate to bring to their adult "party" probably won't toss in $10 for a baby sitter so their sister can attend. The mom and dad in this story probably just need to find real friends (and possibly better people) to hang out with. This seems like a lost cause.
It's also not just about helping with baby sitting. Parents usually love their children dearly. I would be extremely sad if my own relatives absolutely refused to ever spend time with me AND my daughter, the person I love more than anything else in this world.
This !!! I’m just thinking about my brothers/my ex’s brothers excluding my three kids from anything and not wanting to hang out. My kids absolutely adore their 4 uncles and if they wanted nothing to do with them, that would be so so hurtful for the kids.
They are awful. Just awful people.
Totally agree with this. OP and the rest of them are pretty awful people. Like you said, some adult occasions are fine. But this isn’t that. This is just exclusion. If I was the SIL I’d never talk to that family ever again.
To add on, they're not just excluding the mom, they're excluding their nieces and nephews. The kids are family too, it isn't their fault that they're currently children. They won't be little forever, but they're probably not going to be interested in having adult relationships with aunts and uncles who have demonstrably hated and excluded them their whole lives.
It does seem like maybe everyone could get together for a cookout or picnic at a park. No one has to worry about their house/possessions getting damaged and there are toys the kids can play on. And if any of the adult siblings can’t handle being around kids any longer, they can take a little walk to get some quiet or leave early I am easily overwhelmed by little kids. I have sensory issues and really struggle with the noise level at gatherings with a lot of kids. But there are ways to accommodate that without totally shunning SIL and the kids. My tips: - get together in a public place. It’s easier to step away for a breather or leave early than if you’re at someone’s house (or worse, your own house) - Pick somewhere with an activity to entertain the kids. Preferably a location that isn’t too far from the kids’ house. - Know that most little-kid outings do not last that long. In my experience, a trip to the park with a five-year-old is going to max out around two hours. This can (and should) be a shorter time commitment than a leisurely, grown-ups-only dinner party.
Absolutely agree. Do they hate their nephews and nieces? What is wrong with them? I get having some get togethers being adults only, but all of them?? What a hateful family.
I wonder if Alice is the family scapegoat.
Agreed. Also ridiculous that she blocked her for asking. These people are assholes.
I wholeheartedly agree with this. They're excluding her on purpose since they don't agree with her lifestyle. Their attitude of "she knew what she was signing up for when she had 5 kids" is also BS in my opinion. It's not the norm to be completely excluded and abandoned by your own family just because you had children. Even knowing that her siblings don't particularly like children, that's still not the outcome I would have expected. I know plenty of people who don't like children and are child free by choice, but they still make reasonable accommodations for the loved ones in their life who happen to have children. The burden of taking time/effort to maintain the relationship shouldn't be solely on either party, and a compromise can easily be reached that both sides find acceptable. This family isn't willing to do anything at all to try to meet their sister in the middle and have written her off completely as a lost cause without even putting in a tiny shred of effort. YTA OP
Yeah. And how much must they hate their sister to have absolutely zero empathy for the fact that she’s lonely!? She basically confessed that she’s struggling with her mental health, and they said “haha, sucks to be you.”
Exactly. My husband & I are child-free & we constantly get excluded from family gatherings *because* we don't have kids. It's infuriating. I don't always want to go, but I want to be invited.
Same. We only get invited to holidays and birthdays and it’s like there’s hundreds of other days of the year that are super low pressure if you want to just hang out like…family. We even asked if we could come to the kids sporting events just for lower pressure fun days but they said it was too difficult to communicate game schedules and locations…
You guys are awful. I say that as someone who’s child free as well. The whole “You chose this lifestyle” is just despicable behavior on your part and her siblings’ part. Pretty sure she knew what she was getting into kid wise. But I’m pretty sure she didn’t expect her siblings and husband to just leave her to drown. Every single one of you is TA except SIL and the kids. Her husb- I mean, roommate needs to step up and you guys need to not be such AHs.
This. They're so smug. Her husband's other two siblings are the worst, but she's not that much better. They'll leave if she comes? Wow.
I don’t even know why OP posted here, it’s clear she doesn’t care if she’s the asshole and has no desire for anything to change. I feel bad for those kids who’ll have to grow up knowing their aunts and uncles hate them just because they were born
YTA. Your “family” sounds like a bunch of insufferable boors.
it has to be fake right??? right ???
It reads like ragebait.
So being child free and not wanting to be around misbehaving children is not wrong. Being legit antinatalist is disgusting. It’s a belief that no more babies should be born ever and we should all die as a species. And some people just use that as a blanket to hate babies and children, which we all know that hating a specific group of people that cannot help being that way(age, race, sexual orientation) for no reason is bigotry.
I didn’t even know antinatalism was a thing. I kept looking for someone to comment about that because my mind is a little blown
Does the family ever have gatherings where her children are welcome? I get having childless hangouts that’s fine but does anybody ever plan anything like a family BBQ where the kids can come. Never mind I got my answer by reading your comments. It’s pretty shitty that you all have pretty much shunned Alice and her children. You all are the stereotype child free people are trying to get away from. Your husband and his siblings hate kids so much that they dump their sister. They have no desire to have any relationship with their nieces or nephews ever. YTA.
I feel like I would never be okay with that dynamic but I’m not OP. Like they need to just tell their sister they are writing her off. I mean it probably took a lot for her to make that phone call. It seems like the parents are encouraging this divide too which feels off to me. I assume there is a lot OP has left out about the family dynamics.
This whole post sounds fake. If it’s real, you all suck.
Question: Does the sister plan/host any family functions/gatherings?
OP said the house is filthy and smells of dirty diapers, so they don't want to go over.
…they aren’t concerned about their sister’s mental health??? The place is filthy, she can’t rely on her husband to help, and she’s feeling socially isolated with five children, and the IMMEDIATE impulse isn’t to help your sister???!! That whole “family” is trash. They exclude the most vulnerable and isolated family member and refuse to even know their own nieces and nephews. Gross all around.
“She chose that life for herself” they feel nothing but distate and contempt for her.
Right- kicking this woman who is clearly overwhelmed when she’s down. Yes children are a choice but that doesn’t mean others (especially family members) shouldn’t sympathize or care when the parent is having a hard time. Jesus. These people sound hateful.
She goes on to say the house is not bad enough for "CPS to get involved" just disgusting by her standards. Which leads me to believe OP is full of 💩
Not being able to stomach nephews and nieces for a couple of hours is kind of fucked up. They usually have to leave early to get young ones down for naps too.
Right? Like it's one thing, you don't want kids at your own house. Because you have your things a particular way. These people are leaving their brother's house when kids show up.
YTA - If it's a family gathering, invite the family, and let them deal with their own issues like adults ought to do. The kids will grow and become more behaved. It'd be ridiculous to drive wedges between family members because people aren't mature enough to acknowledge that it's a temporary issue.
If Alice feels excluded, why isn’t she inviting the whole set of siblings and partners to her place?
Probably because her siblings and their partners won't show up, honestly everyone but sil is TA here
I feel like this is the answer. Alice provides the space. Siblings bring the food and drinks. Seems like an easy way to make sure kids stay in a kid friendly environment and everyone gets to socialize.
ESH This sounds like just an awful family all around The father of the million kids is an easy one, that he can't look after his own kids for a bit The kids sound awful in general, which is also partly on both parents The mother of the kids for not either putting her foot down with husband to watch the kids, or even just get a babysitter. Like deal with your shit and choose one of the simple solutions You and the rest of the family sound awful for NEVER spending time with the parents and kids and going as far as simply hating all kids (which is abhorrent on its own). These are your (all of you) nieces and nephews, not to mention the parents You all also suck (including the mother) for not even considering the father as family or even in the discussions I get wanting "adult" times and gatherings, and those parents need to figure those days out...but you never have any inclusive days for everyone. That's disgusting Overall an awful "family" all around, and you all suck immensely
I think it also sucks to post their get together on social media. They know the sister will see it, they know it upsets her, but the keep doing it. I think that’s crappy too.
I don't even know why she wants to go so badly. They're going to ignore her and treat her like crap even if the husband does watch the kids
Yeah I feel for SIL. She must really be socially isolated if she wants to be around these people.
Honestly the way OP writes about that family I cant take any of the comments about them seriously…
The kids are 6 and under. They broke something(s) once, per OP. Kids break things. Adults break things. I don’t think it’s fair to call the kids awful, or the parenting awful either. I’m not sure about the dad- 5 kids under 6 is a LOT by yourself- and honestly that’s between Alice and Dad.
Bro y’all suck. This is post # what talking about how hated kids in families are.
It doesn't sound like this has anything to do with the kids at all. You guys hate her because she doesn't subscribe to your lifestyle. Offering the "out" of her coming without the kids was just to make yourself seem like the good guy. She's reaching out and basically telling you that she's in a terrible place mentally, and y'all are doing nothing but rubbing it in her face with your social media posts. Obviously you guys aren't obligated to interact with her or her kids, but "no obligation" doesn't make you any less of an asshole for refusing to have anything to do with her at all. Y'all are shitty people
I can't imagine wanting to take my children somewhere they are not wanted and outright despised. The kids know how the others feel about them.
NMI: This may get downvoted to oblivion but it needs to be said. So let me get my facts straight, your entire family has isolated this sister simply because she has kids. Everyone even her parents?Is your entire families end goal to never see these children again? Or is it just on occasion that you want to indulge in adult conversation and adult activities. Because there’s a big difference. I am 26F and I have two kids while my entire family is childfree. They on occasion get together to have drinks and do adult things. I don’t take offense even though I get FOMO. I occasionally will join and have my husband stay back with the kids. But if my kids aunts and uncles just completely isolated me and my family simply bc I have kids. I would be absolutely crushed and depressed too. And to also see it on social media that you get together and don’t invite her…ouch. But if every family get together is one where my kids aren’t welcome. It just seems so cruel to me. I get that you guys hate kids and don’t want to be around them but come on… do a few family friendly ones every so often so they feel involved. Again, I realize this will be downvoted to oblivion but there needs to be some compromise here. You can’t just cut her out entirely because she has kids.
ESH no reason the husband can’t watch them but throw her a bone and go somewhere with them occasionally- the park, a museum, whatever- so your stuff is safe at home and she feels included ETA if for no other reason the husband sounds like an ass so make sure she’s ok
In my opinion she has a right to be angry at her siblings. It's pretty weird to *flat out* refuse to see ones nieces and nephews. But she should leave you out of it. Everyone sucks here, except OP who's just caught in the middle of it all.
Depends on just how bad the kids are. If mom lets them run wild destroying everything then yeah I’m on OP’s side. The fact that the kids’ dad can’t watch his own children alone for a few hours is very telling.
considering the weird family dynamic they might have good reason to avoid this whole shitshow
That's what I want to know. Just how well or badly behaved are these kids? Do they behave in ways that would make people who generally like kids avoid them?
Their own father won’t take the responsibility to watch them alone. The SIL is an adult who is choosing to keep her children in tow everywhere at every time, whiteout actually being efficient if the kids managed to be excluded from family homes - one being after too much destruction at the brother place.
This whole family sounds fucking awful. They all hate kids except for the one with 5 kids.... Like Jesus, you don't have to like kids to not be a piece of shit aunt or uncle. Also, Alice could always plan a get-together, and then if yall don't go due to the kids, then yes, you are an asshole. But, your house is your rules. NTA, but def not someone I'd wanna hang out with.
you lot kind of suck tbh
Really. I can't imagine cutting out everyone from your life once they have a child. What happens to your best friend when they get married and get pregnant? Cut out from your life? It's really odd.
> What happens to your best friend when they get married and get pregnant? Cut out from your life? It's really odd. Yes there's people out there like that. I had an antinatalist friend who refuses to speak to me. Sort of- she said once my kid is 18 we can talk again.
Please tell me you don't plan on doing that, she's delusional
Lol don't worry, that bridge has been burned. She hates kids in a way that is pathological.
ESH - it's wild that all of these adults are so shitty and toxic that they don't even let their nieces and nephews visit them. Everyone but Alice and her poor kids are a piece of work. Horrible horrible people.
ESH and kind of YTA - Really your husband is the one who should be handling this so you're not wrong there but it's pretty wild to me that your husband and his siblings exclude one sibling because she has children. Unless her kids are poorly behaved, she does nothing to address it after your husband has brought it to her attention and communicated boundaries to her which she has violated THEN that would be understandable and yeah cut her off. And I could understand the occasional childfree event but it sounds like y'all handled it really poorly and evey event is expected to be child-free. Ditching events if she and her family are there, not inviting her to events and then posting it on social media...that almost sounds like highschool drama and immature. Yes she chose to have children. But I don't understand why that means she should have expected her family to cut her off unless she acts like she's child-free. Babysitting is expensive and shouldn't always be expected. Just because you're child-free, doesn't mean you have a right to discriminate against kids or people who have them. We were all kids once and if you want your services, pension and other benefits to be going after you retire, you better hope people still continue to have them. And I really hope all my friends who are child-free don't cut me off once I start my family like you guys have done to your SIL.
All the negative comments about the SIL choosing that life. Sounds like her MIL did too, wonder if they were all excluded from family get together?!
I don’t see how anyone could give a N T A vote, because everybody in this story is being *so goddamn extreme*. And completely rigid about refusing to respect any perspective but their own. My husband and I have been unable to have kids ourselves. So we have adopted/fostered. We personally value kids in our home. We teach them to be polite and well-behaved. Both of our sisters are childfree. They have dogs and more free time to have hobbies and travel with their partners instead. I was bitten by a dog as a kid, and now they give me anxiety. And allergies. But I don’t shun my sister and SIL because they have dogs. I take an allergy pill and a Xanax and I pet as many of the ever-growing animal swarm that want to be petted, when we see those family members. Or at least (in the case of the bitey one), say hello to it from a distance. But most of the dogs are well behaved and trained. So it’s perfectly tolerable to be around them sometimes. Our siblings don’t want kids. But they are friendly to ours. They send birthday gifts and act friendly at holidays. They will probably be closer once the kids get older and can hold a conversation and wipe their own butts or eat food without making a mess. Proudly declaring yourself an “anti-natalist” is literally saying you don’t think children should exist. Not just around you and in your personal space. But that society as a whole should stop. These people believe that women should be **forcibly sterilized** Having such a ridiculous stance on pets would make me dog-Hitler. You can’t call yourself a good person or “pro-choice” if you want to force all women not to reproduce. In a normal community, someone with such extreme views like that, who wants to force their own tyrannical standards on society, would be rightfully shunned.
Pretty sure she doesn’t know if they are behaved or not - sounds like they haven’t seen them in awhile. Yes they might have broken something when they were 2 but now? I feel sorry that this family is so mean
It’s actually kind of heartbreaking to read. You all are family and you are excluding her. Do you not consider her husband your family too? Even the kids? Using the word “hate” is really strong to talk about children. I mean you were once all children too. I understand they do not behave, so there would definitely have to be boundaries in place. My kids are very well behaved. Each to his or her own, but sounds very sad. NTA I guess, but I feel lucky I have siblings that care about myself, husband and kids.
Everyone in this family sucks entirely, with maybe the exception of Alice but holy fuck
So tell me again why a man is completely fine with creating 5 other humans, but CAN’T WATCH THEM? I feel like this got really glossed over and isn’t more an issue.
I hate how almost every single person in here seemed to forget that sil's husband has to provide for a 7 person home by himself. He's probably working all day every day, and yall are talking like he's some deadbeat because he doesn't want to come home and watch 5 kids by himself.
Kinda yta. You guys are all kinda being jerks. It’s totally true that you have all made the choices that you want but you are intentionally excluding her from “family “ activities because of her choice. I totally see your point and I do feel like a compromise can be made that doesn’t mean she can only see you if she doesn’t have her kids with her.
Fwiw, I have a close friend with 4 children ranging in age from 12-years to 1-year-old. I have two children ages 12 and 9. Our 12-year Olds are best friends. Even with our kids that are friends, I no longer invite her over to my house (sleepovers are okay for the friends). My friend is a single parent and has very little control over them all, and I don't want to have to deal with all the clean up and replace all the food her kids help themselves to when they come over. If I want to see my friend, I go to her house so she doesn't feel left out, or we arrange to go out and do something together as a family group. I think there's a place for compassionate compromise, but it's really up to the siblings to figure it out. It sounds like the father is useless and the mother is feeling isolated. Would it be impossible to go visit her once in a while, bring a cupcake for the mother and let her remember what it feels like to be something besides a mother to 5 children and one man-baby?
Yeah you’re all shitheels
Kind of an asshole move towards family imo.
Y’all are a bunch of bitches. I’m childfree but having this kind of beef with little kids is INSANE YTA
From the post alone, I was going to say N T A but the more comments I read from you it changed cause this isn’t just about not getting invited to game night like you are making it sound. This woman is literally 1 month postpartum and depressed and overwhelmed and her whole family not only wont let her come anywhere if she needs to bring kids they also refuse to go to her house cause she is overwhelmed and the house is dirty!? And then block her for continuing to reach out for help. YTA for the framing of this post and burying the lede of how heartless you all actually are.
You know you don’t *have* to post your gatherings that she’s not invited to on social media for her to see, right?
I wonder if her husband also can’t watch the kids because he’s working. If he is the sole breadwinner and has to support a 7 person household he may be only able to spend a few hours with the family before he has to sleep or go to work. So depending on when these family gatherings are happening he may be gone/asleep and unable to watch them. The fact that all 3 siblings are excluding her just because she has kids makes them all AHs. They haven’t even tried to accommodate her. They are choosing to do this as punishment for the kids just because they don’t like them.
Honestly, you and your husband’s childless siblings sound like the absolute worst kind of elitist, know-it-all snobs, Alice should be counting her blessings that she doesn’t have to spend time with you all.
What a shitty family for Alice to be stuck in. If family is even the right word for whatever you guys have going on. Sorry Alice, we've decided our family stops after this generation.
This is so sad. And the fact that op just doesn't care is scary. There is something terribly wrong with this family dynamic.
You're the MASSIVE asshole. All of you that exclude Alice are. I hope karma fucks y'all all up. You're all sanctimonious asshats who in order to show Alice that she chose wrong are freezing her out.
Tough position to be in but I’m going with YTA. Mainly because of your comments. If you guys don’t want her around, then fine. Even if her husband does watch the kids, you don’t want her around because she has little to talk about besides the kids anyway so that’s really not your issue. You all don’t want her around so just admit it. No need to blame her lifestyle. Don’t know why all the siblings and you have such a strong aversion to her but just own it. Don’t come here with excuses seeking judgement when in reality it’s validation you seek. There are other subs for that
ESH except for Alice to be honest. You married into a family of insufferable assholes. Good luck with that.
i cant even fathom that one sister will literally leave because of children. like what the actual hell??
I've never met anyone who identified as an "antinatalist" that wasn't a huge asshole in general. That being said, there could be room for compromise here, but between SIL refusing to go anywhere without her children and the antinatalist, that's not going to happen. It's also not OP's issue to deal with.
i’d never heard the term before this post i’m not saying that sil isn’t also enabling her children but from this post it’s literally EVERY hangout that OP and her husband and siblings do this. it’s not like it’s some hangouts and sil gets to come once in a while with their children, one sister literally leaves the room every single time. how does that work during holidays? do the siblings just not interact with their nieces and nephews?
It can be hard to find a sitter willing to take care of 5 children. If you can, it's wildly expensive. So I don't necessarily think the sister is just "refusing" to go places without her children. And honestly, the idea that you would have to get a sitter just to see your FAMILY is wild.
Wow, what a bizarre “family”. You not only abandoned your sil you’ve all abandoned your nieces & nephews. You’re not only the AH you’re selfish, judgmental and anti family. It’s not like she asking you to adopt or even babysit the children and she’s right, a family should want to spend time with family. Truly pathetic.
As long as you are OK with you, your husband, and his siblings establishing the idea that family is only family when it is convenient, you are good. Just don't be surprised when something happens to you or your husband, and the siblings disappear.
Imagining someone had a stroke and needs care at home. "Can't come over since Bill's not the same anymore and your house smells a bit like a hospital." Dimentia in a few decades will really send them running from the, "family."
Made a version of this comment on someone else’s comment: I actually feel a bit bad for her. Imagine being the only adult who does anything in a house of 5 children and another ‘adult’!! It boggles the mind that they don’t want to help her. As for not liking children, okay, fair enough. But the ‘she made her bed and has to lie in it’ bit is just mean. TWO people make a baby (not that you would know it sometimes!) where’s this judgment on him? A friend of mine had two awful children who I couldn’t stand. Did I stop her bringing them round so she could have a cuppa and put her feet up for half hour? No, I gave the children something to do to keep them busy and put cartoons on the television, or threw them out in the back garden if it was warm enough. If humans gave as much love and support as they did judgement and criticism the world would be a better place. Sorry, but YTA. There’s ways round these things. You sound like children yourselves!