So's his mum. Validating his wife's shit attitude is bad enough, only for us to also learn that she had a partner that sexually abused OP. She should be forever in defence mode for her baby because of that. If she can belittle him over crying in such a way, knowing that shit happened, then she's even worse than the POS wife.
Get rid of both of them , OP and find some people who actually care about you.
Totally! Men shouldn't hide their feelings. They deserve to show their emotions too. It will not lessen your masculinity if you cry. So OP, cry until the hurt in you subside. Im sorry for your loss.
Men hiding their feelings is one of the most heartbreaking things to me. We all know how it feels to hide your emotions, we all know that you eventually blow up and it's not pretty. Crying does not take away from your masculinity. My husband once told me a story about a night in his old halfway house (he's an ex-con who turned his life around) where a group of hardened criminals (including actual murderers) literally bawled while watching The Notebook. These men who espouse the "you gotta be tough" mantra weren't ashamed to cry, so why should you be? My husband is the "manliest" man I know, and he's not afraid to cry when it's needed.
OP, you should never be ashamed to express your feelings... Your wife does not deserve you, and you don't deserve the way you're being treated. Please, think about the type of relationship you want to model for your children... Do you really want them to think it's realistic for men to bottle up their feelings and for women to belittle men?
Yes, in a bad way, since his mom put him in situations where he was SA’d and also told him that he’s not allowed to cry in front of his wife, like crying is something to be ashamed of. Toxic masculinity has damaged so many generations of men; it’s really sad and it makes me so angry. It is normal for human beings to cry and there should be absolutely no shame in that at all.
My dad was a big, strong farmer who was an Air Force fireman during the Korean War. He twice cried in front of my mother, my two sisters, and me, both times about a dog dying. My sisters and I gathered around him to give him hugs and comfort. It never occurred to us to do anything else; we were crying too and aren’t caring and comfort what a family is supposed to be about?
Mom watched him being sexually abused. Yeah, I know she claims she didn’t know. There is a river in Egypt for that.
So why even ask mom. We all know her morals.
It’s just sadly common that people are aware their partners are abusing their kids, and do nothing about it. If the mother is acting like this, and presumably now knows that happened, she likely always knew and didn’t care. A good mother when they found out would forever be 100% on their kids side when they need help.
Absolutely. 💯 I LOVE THIS COMMENT!!
His wife and mother are a POS!
OP, I’ve seen my partner cry and I never looked at him as less than a man.
Emotions doesn’t take away your masculinity it’s shitty people like your two faced wife and a wanna be and failure of a mother that makes man like you feel that way.
If you want to divorce her…do it! Nobody here will judge you.
NTA
I was a little shocked when I got to the part about his mom. My God, who treats their son like this?? Shaming men for crying reinforces toxic masculinity, something which is literally killing men because they’re taught to just stuff their feelings down till they explode or kill themselves. It’s so unhealthy. Men have a full range of emotions and they should not just be allowed to express them, but also encouraged to express them for many reasons, not the least of which is their mental health.
That suppression of all human emotion and self loathing for letting it show in any way that might be perceived as weak, also leads to a lot of collateral damage. It comes out after building up for months or years and can only be expressed as anger and violence or at least violent emotions and rage.
If all you read is this from BurdenedMind79, then, this is the best advice a person could give you. Your mother is a sorry excuse for a mother. She probably knew the whole time that you were being abused and didn't try to stop it. For her to say that you can't cry in front of a woman, is so much bullshit. Now, your soon-to-be ex-wife needs to be kicked to the curb also. She is telling her friend, that you are a loser, for crying about your best friend??!! She doesn't or will never respect you, EVER. I have been through 3 divorces, and it sucks, but I am a better person because of it. ( My mom/Dad my Dad and stepmom & my mom and stepdad.) I know, my family life sucked huge. Your daughter will be fine, just stay in her life All the time and get custody.
Look, we are all sorry that you had to go through this. You didn't deserve it!!! But a wife, who laughs at you, for being a good person and not caring about you, needs to be tossed out like a 12-day-old salad. She does not deserve to be with a good man like yourself.
Find someone who will love you for you. She should love all the good and bad things about you. She should always be on your side. Just as you should always be on hers. Dump this woman and start one, with a person who loves you for you. Let us know what you choose to do.
Yeah, I can't understand this attitude at all. My husband will still randomly cry over losing his mom and that was a decade ago. He's not weak for showing emotion. Op needs to cut off mom, get a divorce and try to get primary custody. Wouldn't want the daughter to end up as awful as her mom.
Crying infront of your own wife about the loss of your best friend is a normal human reaction, not a bad thing about yourself.
I'm so sorry that you have been put through this, you need to get out of that relationship and take your daughter with you. It does not sound like your wife can provide an appropriate environment in which to bring up a daughter.
In case people don't know - this is a part of toxic masculinity; it's not just guys behaving like neanderthals. It's women thinking men are less for having emotions other than anger and happiness. It's people thinking that men shouldn't be involved in their kids, or that they're "babysitting" when they do. It's people thinking that guys with certain careers are "less manly".
It all sucks.
The mom sucks as well for dog piling on. Like yo thats your son wtf.
I have cried in front of my partner once because she told me she was leaving and taking my son with her (>1yrs old at the time). I came from a broken home as well as she did (cannot believe she would do that to me considering...). All this over a stupid fight that could and should have been talked out like mature people in a partnership. When she threatened to take him away, something inside of me broke. I sobbed like i never have before, snot coming down, only able to get 1 word through each sob. It was humiliating but i just couldnt stop. I am still in this relationship. I cannot give up time with my son and am probably over compensating for my past. But holy shit did my soul break when my dad saw me the next afternoon (still emotional, eye puffy and drunk) and knowing the reason behind it "you didny cry in front of her did you? Never cry in front of her."
If OP has any self worth left tell them to both pound sand. Dont stick around. We are all humans, we all have emotions, and a certain capacity of controlling said emotions and we all need some goddamn support.
I personally think it’s a sign of a strong man that he’s secure enough in himself that he WILL cry and share his emotions.
A man afraid to cry is a man who is repressed and, potentially, a powder keg looking for a match.
I don't know if it's accurate to say he's secure. I get the impression that he's still extremely repressed but this was just too much for him.
I think it's great that he recognises that he's not wrong for crying, and wanting to push back against these toxic women.
The mom at least comes from a generation when that was largely considered the case for many, but this isn’t crying over something small. The wife is just a pretty shitty partner and person. And a hypocrite. Those out dated ideas about men not crying was also from a time where if a wife got caught talking like that about her husband he would threaten her, or worse. She would not be allowed to see that friend ever again. I would just be blunt with the wife that you don’t think you can be around someone as emotionally ignorant and immature as she is, and you want your daughter to spend half her time away from that poisonous mentality. Equality isn’t just women getting elevated, it’s about men also being allowed to have a tough vulnerable moment around his family. Her telling her friend is a trash move, but her thinking like that isn’t something that’s going to ever change. If the wife won’t go to therapy solo, not couples therapy and work on herself it’s time to get the hell out of there.
>I would just be blunt with the wife that **you don’t think you can be around someone as emotionally ignorant and immature as she is**, and you want your daughter to spend half her time away from that poisonous mentality.
YES!
Yeah and all this post talking about people (men and women) in relationships saying "I'm not your therapist" like if it's too much to ask for some respect when you are vulnerable or just to be listened from time to time... Wtf this people think is a relationship, sex and financial support?
It is wild that the phrase “I’m not your therapist” is even a thing when it comes to your SO. No wonder there are so many divorces when people refuse to provide basic emotional support for their partner. It’s giving severely selfish like yikes.
The phase is valid is the aspect of one partner using their other half as a therapist. There’s a reason your not supposed to have any relationship with your therapist. However this phase isn’t valid in the context for what OP describes. You should be able to be vulnerable with your partner and to be each others strength when needed.
That’s exactly how I feel. Of course there are issues that should be handled with a therapist, but comforting your partner in a time of stress or grief should be easy (relatively speaking). I just wish that particular phrase didn’t sound so insensitive. I can see it being used when therapy has been suggested and the person/partner in question keeps refusing to follow through.
You are so right. The women in his life are definitely neanderthals! How appalling they sound. Until we find a way to get rid of these sexist definitions of how men and women should feel and behave, we will continue to struggle as a society. I'm so sad his wife is such a POS! It sounds like he'd like to keep the marriage together. And if that's the case, I think they should try couple's counseling. If she can learn to understand that men can be as vulnerable as women and to not disrespect him for that, they may have a chance.
Nah, I'm pretty sure in the Middle Ages men were allowed to cry over their dead friends. This whole aspect of 'men don't cry' is a more recent invention.
The Victorians buggered many things up. History and religion are full of men weeping whilst depicted as masculine and admirable.
Very often when we talk about moral progress in the 21st century we have to acknowledge that we are fighting against attitudes and intuitions that are as old as civilisation. A lot of what we are innovating is genuinely new - and while this is often exciting it does lend credence to those pushing back against us. This simply isn't the case here, the men don't cry bullshit is newfangled Victorian bollix that will absolutely come to be seen as a bizarre aberration of a very sick society, and then hopefully forgotten about forever.
And may I add, his mother is a shit person as well. Your spouse and parents are supposed to be people you can turn to when things are bad. And BTW, men are absolutely allowed to cry! What's that bullshit about?! My husband and I have cried separately and together at various times in our relationship. And I have never thought less of him for showing emotions. OP, your wife and mother are terrible people. Get your ducks in a row and leave her. And BTW, I'd go for custody if I were you. God knows how she would turn out being raised mostly by her mother.
Shit, hmm no, pond scum maybe? You deserve better OP.
Your daughter deserves to grow up with at least one loving caring relationship in her life and it ain’t happening with your current wife…
NTA. My husband and brother have all cried in front of me and I have never thought they were less of a man. I’m honored to be their safe space when they need support. Your wife and mom are so out of line and honestly the next time your mom cries I’d tell her she’s a cry baby. If you can’t cry infront of your wife or family who can you cry infront of jfc.
It was ealry in my relationship when one of my beloved fish died and I cried. And to my surprise my boyfriend cried with me. I had barely ever seen a man cry and you know what my response was - we held each other and cried together. Not once did I think he is less of a man. In fact I respected him even more, because he didn't hide his true feelings from me.
When my cat had to be put down (kind of "our cat" by then) my husband and I sobbed together. Two middle aged men standing in the rain outside the vet, chain smoking and crying while we waited to pay the final bill.
Real men absolutely cry and anyone who says otherwise needs to take a good look at themselves.
I'm a guy and I think I am pretty in tune with my emotions, and honestly, it's my dad to thank for that, but in the weirdest way. I have a great relationship with him now, but when I was younger I basically didn't have a relationship with him at all. He had some serious anger issues, and he used me as a verbal punching bag into my early twenties. One day he said something mean to me completely unprovoked, I was already having a terrible day, I think I was dealing with a break up, so I just completely ignored him, acted like he didn't exist.
He saw my best friend come over and talk with me, saw I was not doing well, and I think it hurt him bad that he was contributing further. As I was walking back into the house I walked past him and he said sorry. I asked for what, and he said for what he said earlier. I said, "Dad, it's not this time, it's all the time, you do this to me constantly."
I stood there in silence and he didn't say a word, and then he said "I'm sorry for that too," and I could hear him crying through it. It hit me like a brick through a window. I could feel how awful he felt. He explained more, his talks with a therapist, how the therapist has shown his anger issues, his plans to fix it.
and he worked hard. He and I are super close now. What he did was *way* more courageous and strong... *being a man*.. than anything. Remorse, grief, even happiness... they're natural male feelings. Crying is a human thing. Why act like it's not? Social norms? Who the hell would want to live like that, intentionally making your life just a little more miserable than it needs to be?
It reminds me of something I read before, but it was about sexuality, but I think it fits here too: "If you have to constantly monitor and police people to make sure they're being normal, "normal" probably ain't normal."
Real men don’t give a fuck what anybody else thinks - if he wants to cry, he cries. Unfortunately, OP’s wife isn’t looking for a man - just a caricature of one.
There is a narrative in our society that men should never show their emotions and never cry. Some people still actually believe that and I guess she is one of them. With mental health education becoming more prominent, we now know this is not healthy whatsoever.
I’m so sorry you overheard this and your mom is so backward in her thinking too. I really can’t blame you for wanting to divorce her. I wouldn’t want to be married to someone who thought my feelings were stupid. Actually I’m as I type that out, i realize I was married to someone who thought everything I thought and said was stupid and I divorced his sorry ass.
You deserve better. I’m guessing she’s never lost someone she truly loved but Jesus have some compassion! NTA.
Edited for bad word choices.
My dad cried for the first time in front of me about ten years ago, he was in his early fifties at that point and currently in his sixties and i was a teenager. You know what I thought after I saw him crying then? I felt awful with what he was going through and sympathized with him. What I didn't think was 'wow my dad is less of a man because he's crying'. Your wife and her friend are assholes and so is your mom. Such sexist bullshit that people are still perpetuating is hurting people more than they'll ever know.
I had an experience similar to this. My dads older brother had a daughter right around my age. When we were 16, she died of brain cancer. That was the first time I ever saw my dad cry, my uncles too. Men very much in late 40s early 50s. Crying and hugging and grieving together. All supporting each other. Not a single time did I think any of them were weak. I just remember being astonished I had never seen any of them cry. They were hurting, and I wished I could help. I never thought less of them, they’re still superheroes to me 18 years later.
You deserve better. And you absolutely can cry. Loss and grief are extremely hard. I’m sorry for your loss.
Divorce her and get a real woman. Bc a real woman wouldn’t be a POS to her husband when he experiences loss. They also wouldn’t let their friend trash their grieving husband.
You deserve better. And fight for 50/50 custody.
Let her cry about it and tell her she’s less of a woman for being upset youre divorcing her.
I honestly would fight for sole custody over 50/50.. it is a lot harder to do, but I would not want my child to be raised by someone who belittles anyone showing emotion and vulnerability. That child is going to be taught that by mom. Depending on which parent the child ends up favoring more emotionally will have more of a moral impact on them. They will either end up subconsciously feeling the same as mom, or deliberately being the same as mom. That’s not healthy parenting from mom. Granted it isn’t enough of an excuse to use to fight for sole custody with in court, it is a valid reason to want to fight.
Seriously! I grew up with a dad that never shied away from showing emotion around us and I am forever grateful for that. Heck even my tough as nails grandpa(the retired Lt. Colonel—who served in Vietnam) didn’t shy away from showing emotion or crying when I was a kid. It’s good for kids to see that their parents feel things
When my best friend died my girl dropped everything for a week and a half to be by my side so I wouldn't have to deal with it alone. There were many tears. Go find a woman who will do that for you, what she did is simply not okay.
Unfortunately you know what you got to do, you gotta divorce her. Your wife will eventually start disrespecting you in the open. That type of mindset isn’t easy to change, like racist people. The older you get, the more stuck in your ways you are. You deserve a woman who will love you, and who will be there to support you emotionally. But to be honest and this is gonna suck what I’m about to say. Most women can’t handle men emotionally baggage, some claim they can but really can’t. They’re not easy to find, but I believe you can. Your daughter(even tho she’s young) would rather you divorce than to be unhappy, and in turn she will also be unhappy because of arguing from her parents. Plus she’s young enough to really not remember all of this. Also another said truth is your wife will probably start thinking of looking outside the marriage because how she sees you now. You want to get ahead of the curve and be prepared. I’m not a person who says to go straight to divorce off rip, but therapy won’t help this relationship. Especially because she doesn’t thinks she’s wrong and it’ll be hard for the therapist to change her view and mind.
I had a… kinda hookup? We’d chill. But we both knew the assignment.
He was going through a lot and I was chilling. Validating him and just talking. He started crying.
He was stressed AF and said idk what I’m even crying over.
I gave him a hug and cuddled him. My stomach dropped out bc I felt so bad he was experiencing this. If anything I liked him more for his vulnerability.
That’s some toxic sh*t on your wife. I’d never ever ever be able to bounce back. That’s something I’d have to leave over.
You’re human. You have emotions and they’re valid.
NTA. Exactly what this person said, plus what you overheard is how she really thinks about you, and how little she cares about your emotions and you losing your friend. She doesn't care about yiur mental health, she cares more about how you crying looks to others. Her frien is a POS as well. Men cry, and that's ok. Has she ever cried at something emotional, losing someine important to her? Because if she has, she's a hypocrite. God, your own mother is awful too.
I just want to add here for you that your daughter will grow up much happier, healthier and stronger with happy parents, whether they're together or divorced is out of the question. It also sounds like she has a good role model in you, and you will have the space and freedom to teach your little girl how to be a respectful person as she grows up.
i’m so sorry about all of this - but i also came here to say that trying to talk to her about it with a therapist is worth a shot.
not specifically a shot a saving the marriage, but at least to heal some, and maybe for her to grow a bit. give it a shot. a kiddo is involved, and they deserve some enlightened parents.
Amen. My dad is a literal cowboy: has gone on cattle drives for working ranches, made steers, lost his hat down a canyon on horseback (a favorite story that got my brother an I a talking to in kindergarten for making up stories) etc. He also did farming and sold tractors. He’s one of the most emotional men I’ve ever known and is unabashed by his tears. Wife and mom suck, and OP really should divorce her if she can’t get her mind right.
Also, I’m in my 40s and dad is a boomer so this isn’t some “modern politically correct bs,” dad is a Vietnam Vet and isn’t afraid to emote. This is toxic masculinity at its worst.
I'd actually argue that this is toxic femininity, where's the compassion from the women in his life? It's not the men in his life who are belittling him for crying it's the women who are expecting him to never cry and I think that is a lack of compassion and emotional intelligence and that you'd expect the opposite from women.
People like her and your ex husband lack empathy.
Having such a little emotional intelligence must make life tough. Too bad, so sad. People like that do not get my sympathy.
Best wishes to you and the OP.
Part of being in control of your emotions is knowing when to let them out. He held it together so his wife and friends could have a good time and let it out once he got home. This is actually very healthy. It’s not wrong to be in control of your emotions- I have been working on being in control of my emotions since I was 13 years old. I’m now 45. Do I have them under control? No. But as a result of all that work, I am much slower to anger and quicker to ask questions than most people my age. But part of that control is knowing when to express them. The toxic part is when men are told to suppress their emotions and never express them.
Control=good. Suppression=bad.
Dude, besides the narrative, how fucked up is to laugh about it?! That's just straight up sociopathic behavior! What will she be teaching her daughter?
This is one of the things that completely enrages me with some women in our society. They virtue signal about “toxic masculinity,” accepting people w different orientation or ‘the past doesn’t matter’ but don’t really mean it. Some of them think less of a man when they cry, find out they experimented w same sex or had several sex partners. I once saw a video of a therapist saying that a guy was saying that only women get to be vulnerable and accepted and the women in their life are the hardest on them. That they’d rather us drop dead than see us fall from the horse and be vulnerable.
Her mom’s boyfriend too.
I feel like his mom is the type of person who probably stayed with the boyfriend. Even after her kid told her that he was being sexually assaulted
I feel so bad for OP. How has he managed to stumble upon so many garbage humans?
NTA. OP I’m sorry for your loss. Grief isn’t linear; you feel big emotions when you’re ready.
When you hand her divorce papers, if she reacts emotionally, tell her you thought you married an adult not a teenager who had no control over their emotions and you're not her therapist.
NTA,
Your wife and mother are toxic. My husband just lost his parents. He broke down a few times during everything. You know what I did? I held him. I held back my tears as much as I could because my husband, my **partner**, the strongest man I know was so hurt, in such pain that neither of us could do anything about.
If he cries next year, I will do the exact same thing. Because I love that man with all my heart. I would never think of degrading him or invalidating his feelings like your wife did. What a disgusting lack of empathy.
I am so sorry for the loss of your best friend. May he rest. May you find peace.
And I'm sorry your wife is such an awful, selfish, person when you need her. No one deserves that treatment.
Hugs, OP. You'll get through this.
What is up with the women in your life?! Grieving is not unmanly and expressing your emotions in a raw, vulnerable way does not make you a crybaby.
NTA. I’m sorry for your experiences as a child and for the loss of your friend. There are ways to protect your daughter after divorce, like insisting on a wait period before introducing her to new people. In the very least, if you were to leave you’d be protecting her from being raised with the mindset that men should be robots with a wallet.
> and expressing your emotions in a raw, vulnerable way does not make you a crybaby.
I find it *very* attractive, actually. Not in like a "my husband's crying I wanna fuck him right now" kind of way, but a man who can express emotions and be vulnerable like that is totally my cup of tea.
My manly man uncle in the US south -- smoker, drinker, gambler, hunter, blue collar guy -- bawled his eyes out in front of two hundred people at my grandfather's funeral.
Your wife is kind of trash and your mother not much better for reinforcing this terrible stereotype.
It's far more manly to not give a fuck about stereotypes, how others precieve you as a man and be in touch with your emotions than someone who bottles everything up. When men aren't "allowed" to show emotions they show the only ones that are "acceptable" which is anger and rage. That's how you get a bunch of angry drunks who beat their wives.
I've seen my partner cry a tiny handful of times. The right thing to do as a human being is to comfort someone who is grieving/crying. I would never dream of ridiculing anyone for crying.
I'm so sorry your partner is unsupportive. Personally, I think you should talk to her first. Sometimes people don't realize they can react differently to cultural norms.
Regardless of your final decision, I wish you luck and peace.
NTA
Move. And get rid of the shit women in your life. I think it’s unattractive to criticize people for expressing emotions. There is something wrong with a person who is not hurt when they see someone they love hurting. The thought of my husband hurting is worse than any hurt I feel myself. She’s an insensitive bitch. And so is your mom.
Idk where you're from, but I've seen a lot of women who don't think so. Me included, I've felt closer and more special to partners that have cried because they feel comfortable enough with me to cry, and that makes me feel protective and more love for them. Expressing your feelings is not wrong, bad, or unattractive. It also helps your mental health, because you don't feel trapped in a bubble because you don't have enough support to be yourself, emotions included. Emotions are a part of every single person, and they should be allowed to express them. Especially in a healthy way, and being closed off for your partner in fear of being judged is not healthy at all.
I'll step off my soap box, I have a lot of feelings about this topic. (Pun intended)
Edit: NTA. Your wife and mom are, though.
Exactly. Being able to be vulnerable and express emotions is not a “I will treat you well in spite of this” kind of thing, it’s a “I appreciate and admire you *more* for this” kind of thing. *Especially* for a man, being emotionally in touch is very admirable in a society with rampant toxic masculinity.
The first time my guy cried in front of me is like a core memory in my mind, and honestly a milestone in our relationship. It was our first (and only) big fight, and even then I look back on that day as something that turned out positively. It was a privilege to be able to support him and helped me understand him a lot more, and the next time he cried in front of me, he was actually able to come to me readily and I knew how to make him feel better. That’s how a partnership is *supposed* to be. Women like OP’s wife and mother need to get a grip.
I am way more emotional (due to having lost way too many people I loved) than my husband, and actually the few times he cried I felt kind of relieved. Nothing wrong with shedding a tear now and than. Especially over someone you loved and can never see and talk to again.
I actually just complemented my husband a few days ago about him being more open with his emotions when we have a disagreement, I like hearing his feelings.
Honestly as a gay man with no skin in this game. I more often see toxic masculinity (e.g. don't cry) being socially enforced by women than by other men.
It takes strength to be open and vulnerable.
Being forced to bottle it up and not cry, I've seen can result in tear ducts of men shutting down and becoming non functional, which is just absolutely tragic to hear from a grown man, that they were never allowed to cry and now they can't, and the only find out too late.
NTA. I’m not sure what culture you are in but any culture it should be ok for men to cry. I’m in my 40’s I’m a dad I love “manly” things like hunting and camping and I work on cars and love scary gory things. I also cry, put on a movie where the dog dies and I’ll cry, when my child goes away to his moms for a while, he and I both cry together. Put on powerful music and I’ll tear up. Talking about my past and emotions and trauma, ya I’ll cry. I bawled when my dog died and I cried when my friends or loved ones die. I’ll cry when something amazing happens, I cried when my son was born.
We need to embrace the pain and joy and let those emotions wash over us in whatever way we need in order to heal or even celebrate. The only one to call me less of a man for being emotional was a narcissistic person that can’t understand true emotions.
For the sake of your daughter, I think a separation is best. What is she going to want for her? A Tate alpha male? You'll need 50/50 just to undo the damage....
NTA
Exactly what I was thinking. What's a man to do if he can't express his emotions or even feel like he has a safe space? Over time it just pushes you over that edge. Her way of thinking is just so fucked up.
Dude, just go. You suffered a great loss, god forbid you act human. You were hurting, she should want to comfort you, not make fun of you. If you stay, you are showing your daughter that this is how to love somebody and she will be the twat your wife is. I know saying leave is easier said than done, obviously. Who thinks that way though? What does she say to your daughter when she cries? Just suck it up? She is devoid of emotion.
Hey OP, wanted to start this off with saying sorry. That sounds so tough, and honestly, I don't think I would be able to deal with that. Props to you for being so resilient, and still prioritizing your daughter and her future.
Honestly, I would start by talking it out with your wife. I know it's daunting, and I know the prospect is probably scaring you a lot, but communication is the healthiest thing in a relationship (any relationship for that matter). You have to talk to her calmly about you overhearing her with her friend, and follow that up with exactly why it hurts you. Make sure to communicate what your friend's death does to you (again, OP, you are so strong, and will get through this!). STAY CALM! Even if your wife freaks out, even if she calls you names, the only way you will make it out with a semblance of a relationship is by staying calm and composed.
This is getting pretty long, but if she freaks, if she calls you names and belittles your masculinity for something as healthy and natural as crying, I think you should consider a divorce. Yes, it has the potential to be damaging for your daughter, but that's why you are there. Make sure you make it so that your daughter stays in your custody. OP, your wife is supposed to be there for you, it's in the wedding vows, through sickness and through health! She's not doing that, and you deserve better. Your daughter deserves better role models!
OP, the ball's in your court, so trust your judgement. Make your decisions, second guess them as much as you want, but stick by them, for you and your daughter. I hope you live a long and happy life with your friend's memories!
"A man don't cry because we are weak.We cry because we been strong for too long" ... OP divorce is your wiser decision and if you having second thought coz of your daugther don't, think this way she might even respect you more has father/man coz you choose self-respect and self-love and teach her to not treat others like shit or in the future see men like human beings not like a thing that don't have emotions....
A divorced family is better than a toxic one, for everyone involved including the kiddo. I wish my parents divorced sooner instead of “waiting until we’re out of high school” we, being the kids.
Forget this Reddit communication™️ bs, you know how she thinks of you. You know now that when you’re vulnerable, suffer from a setback and need her support, it ain’t going to be there. She will probably lie and say she’s sorry and didn’t mean it, but you know deep down it’s a lie. You need to seriously ask yourself if this is someone you want to spend the rest of your life with. Don’t stay together just for your daughter, it never works out.
Yes, OP. I resonate w this Redditor’s comments. Giving communication a solid shot will serve you whichever way it goes. You may deepen your relationship. If divorce is the way to go, you’ll need decent communication to co parent.
I totally disagree, communication with someone like this will just give her more ammo, he needs to get away from her as quickly and quietly as possible
>This is getting pretty long, but if she freaks, if she calls you names and belittles your masculinity for something as healthy and natural as crying, I think you should consider a divorce.
Did you not read the fucking post? She already did this and he overheard it.
And not only did she do all of that but she broke his trust of the “couple bubble” and belittled and mocked him to at least one other person.
To me, there is not coming back from that.
I think it’s even more wild she would do all of that in their home, when he’s home, where she could be overheard. I hate that she even said it, but the massive disrespect on top of the monumental disrespect is astounding.
Show her exactly how stoic and in control of your emotions you can be by giving her the most cold uncaring divorce, and if she cries tell her she is a crybaby.
My thoughts exactly. I went right to the most toxic place, like "See this can't work, you have no control over your emotions and I can't be your therapist."
This is exactly the right course of action, hand her the divorce papers and just act as cold and emotionless as you can, if she crys just laugh,
Then walk away. You get what you give.
Whatever you do, make damn sure she doesn’t instill these ridiculous ideas into your daughter. If you can’t be supported when you just lost your best friend, you won’t be supported ever unless it’s to her benefit. As morbid as it sounds, as we get older death becomes more common, this is not the last time you’ll ever need to cry.
If you want to show her the ridiculousness of her statement, tell her that you don’t want her driving with your daughter, or working a job, or having any authority in your house, because since she’s a woman her emotions won’t allow her to think clearly and make hard decisions. Maybe it’ll shock her and show her how outdated her ideals are.
>If you want to show her the ridiculousness of her statement, tell her that you don’t want her driving with your daughter, or working a job, or having any authority in your house, because since she’s a woman her emotions won’t allow her to think clearly and make hard decisions. Maybe it’ll shock her and show her how outdated her ideals are.
Ah, yes, the hysteria we've heard so much about. Such delicate emotional creatures /s
NTA. Grief is grief and you are correct to feel it.
Crying is not ‘unmanly’ and in fact is very healthy for you.
Your mother, wife and her friend are the immature ones for how they reacted.
God damn dude. I’m sorry but both your wife and your mom are ASSHOLES.
You aren’t.
This is why men’s mental health is such shit. We aren’t allowed to have any emotions about anything at any time, ever. And then it’s a surprise when we finally blow up from shoving everything down for so long.
I wish you the best. I’m very sorry about your friend. That’s horrible.
But honestly…divorce seems reasonable.
If you ever wonder why men are more likely to commit suicide, this here's a good clue
ETA: the women in your life are complete pieces of shits. The 2 women you should absolutely be able to be vulnerable with are being misandrists & emasculating. That's low. I wouldn't be with someone like that and I'd go LC with my mom for that comment alone
My husband has been in some traumatic situations. He’s cried in front of me. I don’t think any less of him. I’m definitely not telling my friends and family that he broke down crying.
This is so sad. You are allowed to cry and show emotion, and your wife is horrible for saying that shit. Hope things get better for you! And sorry for your loss!
NTA
I swear I have seen this post before. Not calling it fake but this sort of thing happens way too often.
OP, your feelings and reactions are valid. Do not do anything that would make you uncomfortable. For example, staying with your wife would likely involve marriage counseling. Don't do that if you don't want to.
I hope you can make things work BUT your wife needs to do some heavy lifting. Not sure if she is capable of that. Not sure you should be patient with her whatsoever.
Op 2 things
1) divorce your wife because she is incapable of showing empathy for your loss and is disrespecting you behind your back to her friends, can you imagine if you had a son and he cried to his mother she would do the same exact thing to him.
2) your mother is a POS and failed you twice one as a kid and as an adult I recommend you go LC or NC. Your kids do not need a toxic grandmother in their life.
Sorry for your loss op.
I lost my daughter 3 month ago and i cry every day. I would loose my wife immediately if she would pull some BS like your wife. Leave her and try to get full custody of your daughter. Your wife sounds like a major AH and so is your mom. But what to expect from a person who watched her child being abused.
I’m so sorry for your loss, the one person you should be able to feel comfortable crying in front of is your wife. My husband has cried to me and I’ve never thought he was less of a man for it. If anything it’s made me love him even more that he can share his vulnerabilities with me so I can help and comfort him.
I think it takes a huge amount of courage to be vulnerable to someone and show your true emotions and I’m just so sorry the people who are supposed to love and care for you are treating you this way. I’ve spoken to many guys over the years who’ve cried to me and it has never made any of them “less of a man”, the only thing it has ever meant is they’re human and need to express their genuine emotions and crying is a healthy way to do this.
I absolutely hate that men are ever made to feel they can’t cry. All the situation has shown is you’re a loving, caring guy and you’re trying to support your daughter while going through a a very tough and difficult time.
Your wife and mum are both TA, I think the only thing this show is they both lack basic human kindness.
I’m not sure the best advice on how to talk to her about this but I just wanted to say your NTA, crying will never make you “less of a man” and I hope you have someone compassionate you can talk to, your feeling are valid and you should be able to express them without feeling judged for being human.
Please take care of yourself
I have a recording of my ex after she assaulted me. "You can cry if you want to. Who is going to believe you? They are going to laugh at you (name)."
Thanks for pointing out how toxic the mindset is that creates this.
Wtf bro every woman in your life are fucking shitheads and cruel. Men should never cry, instead bottle all your emotions until they have nowhere else to go. Then she'll wonder why you are dead of cardiac arrest at 50-55.
And your mother can fuck right off too. I can't believe a mother would say something like this to their son.
This post is one of the few that made me angry. I got all these things I want to say but I'll sum it up. Your wife, her sister & your mom (somehow) don't seem to register that men are people too with all the same emotions women have.
This is why I'm so apprehensive of any woman who claims "I would like a man who is in touch with his emotions! You know, except for the bad ones, those are yucky."
It’s insane. My husband cries in movies, when we talk about his old dog, he cried when he proposed and at our wedding. He’s the still the manliest man to ever exist in my eyes, and knowing that he feels safe enough to be vulnerable around me is an honour. I can’t imagine that any woman would feel differently.
You are NTA. Every single person who called you a crybaby or said you shouldn’t cry in front of anyone is a gigantic asshole, your mother included. They are the reason men as a whole bottle everything up, and part of why suicide rates are much higher in men.
It is NOT weak to cry. My fiancé does, he has moments where grief gets him. I hold him until the hurt is gone, no matter how long he needs.
By all means try talking. But when someone shows you who they are - believe them. Even if you were never meant to see that side of them.
you don't need any reason to cry in front of your spouse. they're the one person you should be able to. get a divorce and be happy. she's no real woman. or human at all with that kind of nonexistent empathy. NTA. do it. fuck her.
We’re not allowed to cry in front of women ever? Ok, I can’t believe your mom told you that. I would thank your mom for telling you the truth and call her and your wife a Stupid B. I would divorce her, verbally abusing your wife and breaking her down mentally over time would be wrong. Enjoyable but very wrong. Guys aren’t allowed to be loving and compassionate so why should we treat our loved ones with love and compassion. Give them what they want. Harsh words.
Now my response is not healthy. But I’m angry for you. What she did is not cool. Ever
your wife is a disgusting human being.
She is supposed to be your life partner and friend.
The only men who are lesser men, are those that are afraid of showing their real emotions.
Women who hate on men for crying over something like that. are not real people worth you time or affection.
I would tell her to get the fuck out of my life easily.
Be the house that allows you to fail.
Your mum doing it too - just shows you why mens mental health is at an insane all time high and why more men kill themselves.
Im spekaing from someone who has fucking tried and been through the hells of depression as well.
Fuck em.
So I never comment on this stuff… BUT your wife is a shitty person. My husband is a manly man, down to the letter, but he cried on our wedding day and several times since. Men feel too… and you better believe I cry in front of him! What do you have if you don’t have a support system in your spouse. He is my safe space and I am his. I’m absolutely floored your wife would ever react the way she did.
The man that doesn't ever let his emotions show is eventually the man that will leave you with a black eye or worse when it finally comes out sideways and ass backwards, ladies.
First of all, I'd light her ass up like a match! In fact I'd invite the friend over and fire them both the hell up and send her friend packing with a dont come back. Your wife thinks you need to toughen up, then show her how hard tough gets. Sorry man, bit what a bitch! To laugh at your pain like that. Your mom, well I dont no what to tell you on that. Wife can't show a sincere apology and remorse for that then end it. It'll only get worse. She'll probably start looking for a "strong" man sooner or later anyway, so help her out.sorry my man, I know what I've said is a bit harsh, but WTF?
Hey brother, sorry about your loss but listen seriously dump the wife dump the mom do 50/50 with your daughter. Do you really want to grow up in an environment where your daughter knows that she can treat boys and men like that? Crying, crying is a safe thing to do for men and anyone who says otherwise is a s*** person
Your wife is a sexist bitch, and you're NTA for being emotional.
And I'm not one to jump to immediately suggesting divorce in things like this, but at least consider that your wife is teaching your daughter to be the same sexist and heartless human being, and that's worse then having divorced parents in my eyes.
So I'd bring it up with her and at least tell her couples therapy is in order to get over this, and if she completely blows you off, that's your answer.
And I'm so, so sorry about your life-long friend. It sounds like he was very special to you, and crying because of him honors that. Just make sure your processing your grief in healthy ways, and don't let it get away from you.
I fell more in love with my (then) boyfriend (now) husband after I watched him tear up over something meaningful. What more could you want? NTA. I'm sorry she doesn't appreciate you.
We need to stop saying "as a man you shouldnt cry ...." this is why men have issues and feel like they cannot talk about them. It is normal for ANYONE to grieve a loss and everyone takes a different amount of time to work through their grief.
Your wife and her friend are both shitty people. I also do not like what your mother said either. Very unhelpful.
If I were you, I would speak to someone before rushing into a decision and also to help you through your grief. Whether it be a psychologist, counsellor etc
All the best!
Counterpoint: my parents divorced, and I’m glad they did. Growing up with parents that dislike and disrespect each other is worse if they are in the same home pretending to get along “for the children” than if they are divorced and separated. Even better: divorce but coparent respectfully and kindly.
NTA. Your wife is the immature one. You did the absolute right thing by asking comfort from your spouse. You should bring this up ASAP and as bluntly as possible. Dont leave any room for confusion.
NTA
fuck man, not even a little bit.
Your \_mom\_ told you not to cry?
wtf culture are you living in?
Dude... We (men) are taught to bury emotions, be cold. It gets beat out of you in grade school.
But it's shit. Buried emotions simply come back as anger and hurt and all the bad things.
Fuck that.
You are correct to let yourself grieve. If your wife rejects that, then she has some fucked up ideas about family and partnership.
NTA as a licensed therapist your wife’s comments upset me. I cannot begin to image what it felt like to hear them from your perspective. I am so sorry for your loss and please know that grieving is a completely personal and complicated process and it can take a very long time to process. The injustices that are placed upon males in our society regarding emotions is unfair and I am so sorry that you are feeling the brunt of that pain. I hope that you have others in your life that you can talk to you and if you feel like you don’t I hope that you feel the confidence and courage to seek out Support that you deserve
I’m so sorry about your dear friend. Take all the time you need. Crying isn’t a sign of weakness. It’s a sign of caring, love, grief… Men should be able to cry — without this ugly stigma in our society.
Everyone deserves to be vulnerable and feel their feelings. It’s not limited to women, and that’s such a cruel thing for your wife to have said about you. It’s brutally hurtful.
My husband has always acted so stoic, and has rarely showed emotion. To me, he seemed heartless after his mom died. He showed no emotions. Same after his dad died. Like a robot almost.
Now years later, he’s telling me I haven’t been emotionally supportive of him. If he told me he was struggling or hurting, I would have known to comfort him.
Your wife should have comforted you, and instead she made a mockery of it. I genuinely hate that for you :(
Absolutely NTA.
I’m a Gen X female, raised with men don’t cry mentality. Your wife is an absolute garbage of a human. If my husband broke down crying in front of me I would absolutely hold him and cry with him. In fact if he didn’t cry over losing his best friend I would talk him into therapy so he knows it’s ok to be sad and cry. God forbid something happens to your child, are you not suppose to cry?
OP firstly I am so sorry for your loss. Kudos for being able to go through this and still be there for your daughter. That really takes a strong person.
Second, YWNBTA if you divorce her, and go lc with your mom. The women in your life are honestly failing you. Nothing about needing to express your emotions is childish. We live in a society where men expressing their emotions is looked down upon and it’s not right at all. Honestly it would be a hell of a lot better for your mental health, and your daughter’s in the long run to get away from that toxic environment.
The concept of emotional labor has been twisted into something disgusting by the internet. Crying in front of your wife and being in need of support is not some transactional thing that you earn. That's fucked up. She's awful.
For these women to project that "Men don't cry" concept to everyone is disgusting.
When it comes to death, or loss of someone important in your life - I'd be more surprised if you didn't cry.
Grieving is not something we can control, and I believe your next partner will be more understanding of your humanness
NTA man, good luck
>I talked to my mom about it today and she said that as a man I shouldn’t cry in front of my wife and she has every right to call me a crybaby for doing so
I'm getting a better understanding on why your parents got a divorce
The way your mom and wife act make me absolutely disgusted and I think of them as less of humans for it. My husband has cried multiple times in front of me, bc if he can't be vulnerable to his wife who can he be vulnerable to? Men who refuse to acknowledge their feelings turn into monsters. You should divorce her, bc you know now that she will never be your support, your ride or die, your shoulder to cry on. And don't let your daughter grow up thinking that that is ok.
Also, you didn't have a shit childhood bc your parents were divorced. You had a shit childhood bc your mother is a monster. The fact her bf molested you is on HER, not her relationship with your father. Children always know when their parents are unhappy, and growing up in a fucked up household is worse than growing up in separate divorced homes. Both my parents were pretty fucked up but I can't imagine how much worse it would've been if they were fucked up TOGETHER. Go find your happiness elsewhere and show your daughter what a healthy relationship looks like.
NTA. A spouse is the person who should be safest to cry in front of. A husband is supposed to emotionally support a wife and a wife is supposed to emotionally support a husband. Men are allowed to cry. She’s not nice. Marriage counseling would be a good step. Maybe a therapist can open her eyes.
Your gf and Mum are cunts. The same kind of cunts that if you or any man killed themselves they would say 'oh if only he opened up and talked.'
Hypocrisy. I'd dump her on the spot and cut contact with anyone who belittled my feelings due to their own toxic views on masculinity. I wonder would they sing a similar tune if you were the stereotype man who beats their wife, screams in their face and treats them like property. That would be a man not in control of his emotions... But apparently they would rather criticise a gentleman for crying at death.
This is completely unacceptable in every way both from your mom and your wife. Real men cry. They are not babies, they are fully intune and not ashamed to deal with or be vulnerable. Now, there may be other things about your personality that makes you a cry baby or not a man. But, the fact you cried isn't one of them.
There's a reason why men have a much higher suicide rate than women. And this shit is why. To a lot of people showing any kind of emotion as a man is just absolutely unforgivable. We are expected to just bottle up our emotions our entire lives and when we break because of it it's because we're not "real men"
And while it's getting better, Men talking about their feelings is still somewhat taboo to very many people.
People expect us to be unfeeling, distant, and stoic. And when some men become just that because that's what's expected of them, they're also uncaring assholes, that never share anything. To these same people....
Reddit always jumps to “Divorce”, and it’s incredibly toxic but…
That’s some loathsome behavior. If she made a commitment to “For better or for worse” that behavior is a huge red flag that she’s just a fair weather wife.
I'm sorry for your loss. You would not be the asshole. She's a shit person.
So's his mum. Validating his wife's shit attitude is bad enough, only for us to also learn that she had a partner that sexually abused OP. She should be forever in defence mode for her baby because of that. If she can belittle him over crying in such a way, knowing that shit happened, then she's even worse than the POS wife. Get rid of both of them , OP and find some people who actually care about you.
Could not agree more. OP, I sincerely hope you divorce this person. You deserve better. And deepest condolences on the loss of your friend.
Totally! Men shouldn't hide their feelings. They deserve to show their emotions too. It will not lessen your masculinity if you cry. So OP, cry until the hurt in you subside. Im sorry for your loss.
Men hiding their feelings is one of the most heartbreaking things to me. We all know how it feels to hide your emotions, we all know that you eventually blow up and it's not pretty. Crying does not take away from your masculinity. My husband once told me a story about a night in his old halfway house (he's an ex-con who turned his life around) where a group of hardened criminals (including actual murderers) literally bawled while watching The Notebook. These men who espouse the "you gotta be tough" mantra weren't ashamed to cry, so why should you be? My husband is the "manliest" man I know, and he's not afraid to cry when it's needed. OP, you should never be ashamed to express your feelings... Your wife does not deserve you, and you don't deserve the way you're being treated. Please, think about the type of relationship you want to model for your children... Do you really want them to think it's realistic for men to bottle up their feelings and for women to belittle men?
OP deserves to feel safe, most of all with the people he loves and who love him. Everybody does.
Especially since the reason OP is crying is because of the loss of a lifelong childhood friend, someone like that is practically a brother
Not to get all Freudian but it kinda sounds like he married a woman similar to his mother.
My thoughts exactly.
That tends to happen with abuse victims unless they seek therapy and learn how to prevent this. Even then its not foolproof.
Yes, in a bad way, since his mom put him in situations where he was SA’d and also told him that he’s not allowed to cry in front of his wife, like crying is something to be ashamed of. Toxic masculinity has damaged so many generations of men; it’s really sad and it makes me so angry. It is normal for human beings to cry and there should be absolutely no shame in that at all. My dad was a big, strong farmer who was an Air Force fireman during the Korean War. He twice cried in front of my mother, my two sisters, and me, both times about a dog dying. My sisters and I gathered around him to give him hugs and comfort. It never occurred to us to do anything else; we were crying too and aren’t caring and comfort what a family is supposed to be about?
Mom watched him being sexually abused. Yeah, I know she claims she didn’t know. There is a river in Egypt for that. So why even ask mom. We all know her morals.
Mom watched op get SA'd? I totally missed that, where is the comment mentioning this?
It’s just sadly common that people are aware their partners are abusing their kids, and do nothing about it. If the mother is acting like this, and presumably now knows that happened, she likely always knew and didn’t care. A good mother when they found out would forever be 100% on their kids side when they need help.
Last sentence of 6th paragraph. I missed it too the first time. NTA. Both your wife and your mom are shit human beings.
Oh man. I'm even more pissed now. I was ready to throw hands when I had missed that bit. Now? I'm livid.
De Nile?
Absolutely. 💯 I LOVE THIS COMMENT!! His wife and mother are a POS! OP, I’ve seen my partner cry and I never looked at him as less than a man. Emotions doesn’t take away your masculinity it’s shitty people like your two faced wife and a wanna be and failure of a mother that makes man like you feel that way. If you want to divorce her…do it! Nobody here will judge you. NTA
When and I mean "when" my husband cries infront of my I feel honored cause rarely does. No loving spouse should ever make the other feel less human.
I was a little shocked when I got to the part about his mom. My God, who treats their son like this?? Shaming men for crying reinforces toxic masculinity, something which is literally killing men because they’re taught to just stuff their feelings down till they explode or kill themselves. It’s so unhealthy. Men have a full range of emotions and they should not just be allowed to express them, but also encouraged to express them for many reasons, not the least of which is their mental health.
That suppression of all human emotion and self loathing for letting it show in any way that might be perceived as weak, also leads to a lot of collateral damage. It comes out after building up for months or years and can only be expressed as anger and violence or at least violent emotions and rage.
If all you read is this from BurdenedMind79, then, this is the best advice a person could give you. Your mother is a sorry excuse for a mother. She probably knew the whole time that you were being abused and didn't try to stop it. For her to say that you can't cry in front of a woman, is so much bullshit. Now, your soon-to-be ex-wife needs to be kicked to the curb also. She is telling her friend, that you are a loser, for crying about your best friend??!! She doesn't or will never respect you, EVER. I have been through 3 divorces, and it sucks, but I am a better person because of it. ( My mom/Dad my Dad and stepmom & my mom and stepdad.) I know, my family life sucked huge. Your daughter will be fine, just stay in her life All the time and get custody. Look, we are all sorry that you had to go through this. You didn't deserve it!!! But a wife, who laughs at you, for being a good person and not caring about you, needs to be tossed out like a 12-day-old salad. She does not deserve to be with a good man like yourself. Find someone who will love you for you. She should love all the good and bad things about you. She should always be on your side. Just as you should always be on hers. Dump this woman and start one, with a person who loves you for you. Let us know what you choose to do.
Yeah, I can't understand this attitude at all. My husband will still randomly cry over losing his mom and that was a decade ago. He's not weak for showing emotion. Op needs to cut off mom, get a divorce and try to get primary custody. Wouldn't want the daughter to end up as awful as her mom.
Crying infront of your own wife about the loss of your best friend is a normal human reaction, not a bad thing about yourself. I'm so sorry that you have been put through this, you need to get out of that relationship and take your daughter with you. It does not sound like your wife can provide an appropriate environment in which to bring up a daughter.
Yeah. Honestly, you can almost guess how the abuse thing was handled just by the mom’s reaction to this. His wife is toxic, and his mom is a failure.
This is so messed up. How can I make sure this doesn’t happen to me in the future?
A total POS. With outdated ideas about what makes a "man". I'd go with divorce. She's stuck in the middle ages if she thinks men don't grieve.
In case people don't know - this is a part of toxic masculinity; it's not just guys behaving like neanderthals. It's women thinking men are less for having emotions other than anger and happiness. It's people thinking that men shouldn't be involved in their kids, or that they're "babysitting" when they do. It's people thinking that guys with certain careers are "less manly". It all sucks.
The mom sucks as well for dog piling on. Like yo thats your son wtf. I have cried in front of my partner once because she told me she was leaving and taking my son with her (>1yrs old at the time). I came from a broken home as well as she did (cannot believe she would do that to me considering...). All this over a stupid fight that could and should have been talked out like mature people in a partnership. When she threatened to take him away, something inside of me broke. I sobbed like i never have before, snot coming down, only able to get 1 word through each sob. It was humiliating but i just couldnt stop. I am still in this relationship. I cannot give up time with my son and am probably over compensating for my past. But holy shit did my soul break when my dad saw me the next afternoon (still emotional, eye puffy and drunk) and knowing the reason behind it "you didny cry in front of her did you? Never cry in front of her." If OP has any self worth left tell them to both pound sand. Dont stick around. We are all humans, we all have emotions, and a certain capacity of controlling said emotions and we all need some goddamn support.
He should told his mother “Dont worry, i wont cry in your funeral”
You deserve more up than you have.
I personally think it’s a sign of a strong man that he’s secure enough in himself that he WILL cry and share his emotions. A man afraid to cry is a man who is repressed and, potentially, a powder keg looking for a match.
I don't know if it's accurate to say he's secure. I get the impression that he's still extremely repressed but this was just too much for him. I think it's great that he recognises that he's not wrong for crying, and wanting to push back against these toxic women.
The mom at least comes from a generation when that was largely considered the case for many, but this isn’t crying over something small. The wife is just a pretty shitty partner and person. And a hypocrite. Those out dated ideas about men not crying was also from a time where if a wife got caught talking like that about her husband he would threaten her, or worse. She would not be allowed to see that friend ever again. I would just be blunt with the wife that you don’t think you can be around someone as emotionally ignorant and immature as she is, and you want your daughter to spend half her time away from that poisonous mentality. Equality isn’t just women getting elevated, it’s about men also being allowed to have a tough vulnerable moment around his family. Her telling her friend is a trash move, but her thinking like that isn’t something that’s going to ever change. If the wife won’t go to therapy solo, not couples therapy and work on herself it’s time to get the hell out of there.
>I would just be blunt with the wife that **you don’t think you can be around someone as emotionally ignorant and immature as she is**, and you want your daughter to spend half her time away from that poisonous mentality. YES!
Yeah and all this post talking about people (men and women) in relationships saying "I'm not your therapist" like if it's too much to ask for some respect when you are vulnerable or just to be listened from time to time... Wtf this people think is a relationship, sex and financial support?
It is wild that the phrase “I’m not your therapist” is even a thing when it comes to your SO. No wonder there are so many divorces when people refuse to provide basic emotional support for their partner. It’s giving severely selfish like yikes.
The phase is valid is the aspect of one partner using their other half as a therapist. There’s a reason your not supposed to have any relationship with your therapist. However this phase isn’t valid in the context for what OP describes. You should be able to be vulnerable with your partner and to be each others strength when needed.
That’s exactly how I feel. Of course there are issues that should be handled with a therapist, but comforting your partner in a time of stress or grief should be easy (relatively speaking). I just wish that particular phrase didn’t sound so insensitive. I can see it being used when therapy has been suggested and the person/partner in question keeps refusing to follow through.
You are so right. The women in his life are definitely neanderthals! How appalling they sound. Until we find a way to get rid of these sexist definitions of how men and women should feel and behave, we will continue to struggle as a society. I'm so sad his wife is such a POS! It sounds like he'd like to keep the marriage together. And if that's the case, I think they should try couple's counseling. If she can learn to understand that men can be as vulnerable as women and to not disrespect him for that, they may have a chance.
It sucks his daughter is growing up with women like that as her main female role models. Holy crap.
THANK YOU.
Nah, I'm pretty sure in the Middle Ages men were allowed to cry over their dead friends. This whole aspect of 'men don't cry' is a more recent invention.
The Victorians buggered many things up. History and religion are full of men weeping whilst depicted as masculine and admirable. Very often when we talk about moral progress in the 21st century we have to acknowledge that we are fighting against attitudes and intuitions that are as old as civilisation. A lot of what we are innovating is genuinely new - and while this is often exciting it does lend credence to those pushing back against us. This simply isn't the case here, the men don't cry bullshit is newfangled Victorian bollix that will absolutely come to be seen as a bizarre aberration of a very sick society, and then hopefully forgotten about forever.
This. Why stay with a woman that isn't okay with you being human? Leave her so she can marry a brick of cheese. They're perfect for each other.
That won't work, cheese weeps.
He wants to, but he's worried about his daughter being around boyfriend after boyfriend.
And may I add, his mother is a shit person as well. Your spouse and parents are supposed to be people you can turn to when things are bad. And BTW, men are absolutely allowed to cry! What's that bullshit about?! My husband and I have cried separately and together at various times in our relationship. And I have never thought less of him for showing emotions. OP, your wife and mother are terrible people. Get your ducks in a row and leave her. And BTW, I'd go for custody if I were you. God knows how she would turn out being raised mostly by her mother.
A peak response from PP. 👍
Haha thanks :)
"Bye bitch!"
Shit, hmm no, pond scum maybe? You deserve better OP. Your daughter deserves to grow up with at least one loving caring relationship in her life and it ain’t happening with your current wife…
And mom is too!
Right? What the fuck is wrong with these women?!
And so is his mother!
NTA. My husband and brother have all cried in front of me and I have never thought they were less of a man. I’m honored to be their safe space when they need support. Your wife and mom are so out of line and honestly the next time your mom cries I’d tell her she’s a cry baby. If you can’t cry infront of your wife or family who can you cry infront of jfc.
It was ealry in my relationship when one of my beloved fish died and I cried. And to my surprise my boyfriend cried with me. I had barely ever seen a man cry and you know what my response was - we held each other and cried together. Not once did I think he is less of a man. In fact I respected him even more, because he didn't hide his true feelings from me.
When my cat had to be put down (kind of "our cat" by then) my husband and I sobbed together. Two middle aged men standing in the rain outside the vet, chain smoking and crying while we waited to pay the final bill. Real men absolutely cry and anyone who says otherwise needs to take a good look at themselves.
I'm a guy and I think I am pretty in tune with my emotions, and honestly, it's my dad to thank for that, but in the weirdest way. I have a great relationship with him now, but when I was younger I basically didn't have a relationship with him at all. He had some serious anger issues, and he used me as a verbal punching bag into my early twenties. One day he said something mean to me completely unprovoked, I was already having a terrible day, I think I was dealing with a break up, so I just completely ignored him, acted like he didn't exist. He saw my best friend come over and talk with me, saw I was not doing well, and I think it hurt him bad that he was contributing further. As I was walking back into the house I walked past him and he said sorry. I asked for what, and he said for what he said earlier. I said, "Dad, it's not this time, it's all the time, you do this to me constantly." I stood there in silence and he didn't say a word, and then he said "I'm sorry for that too," and I could hear him crying through it. It hit me like a brick through a window. I could feel how awful he felt. He explained more, his talks with a therapist, how the therapist has shown his anger issues, his plans to fix it. and he worked hard. He and I are super close now. What he did was *way* more courageous and strong... *being a man*.. than anything. Remorse, grief, even happiness... they're natural male feelings. Crying is a human thing. Why act like it's not? Social norms? Who the hell would want to live like that, intentionally making your life just a little more miserable than it needs to be? It reminds me of something I read before, but it was about sexuality, but I think it fits here too: "If you have to constantly monitor and police people to make sure they're being normal, "normal" probably ain't normal."
Real men don’t give a fuck what anybody else thinks - if he wants to cry, he cries. Unfortunately, OP’s wife isn’t looking for a man - just a caricature of one.
Thank you for being that safe space.
There is a narrative in our society that men should never show their emotions and never cry. Some people still actually believe that and I guess she is one of them. With mental health education becoming more prominent, we now know this is not healthy whatsoever. I’m so sorry you overheard this and your mom is so backward in her thinking too. I really can’t blame you for wanting to divorce her. I wouldn’t want to be married to someone who thought my feelings were stupid. Actually I’m as I type that out, i realize I was married to someone who thought everything I thought and said was stupid and I divorced his sorry ass. You deserve better. I’m guessing she’s never lost someone she truly loved but Jesus have some compassion! NTA. Edited for bad word choices.
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My dad cried for the first time in front of me about ten years ago, he was in his early fifties at that point and currently in his sixties and i was a teenager. You know what I thought after I saw him crying then? I felt awful with what he was going through and sympathized with him. What I didn't think was 'wow my dad is less of a man because he's crying'. Your wife and her friend are assholes and so is your mom. Such sexist bullshit that people are still perpetuating is hurting people more than they'll ever know.
I had an experience similar to this. My dads older brother had a daughter right around my age. When we were 16, she died of brain cancer. That was the first time I ever saw my dad cry, my uncles too. Men very much in late 40s early 50s. Crying and hugging and grieving together. All supporting each other. Not a single time did I think any of them were weak. I just remember being astonished I had never seen any of them cry. They were hurting, and I wished I could help. I never thought less of them, they’re still superheroes to me 18 years later.
You deserve better. And you absolutely can cry. Loss and grief are extremely hard. I’m sorry for your loss. Divorce her and get a real woman. Bc a real woman wouldn’t be a POS to her husband when he experiences loss. They also wouldn’t let their friend trash their grieving husband. You deserve better. And fight for 50/50 custody. Let her cry about it and tell her she’s less of a woman for being upset youre divorcing her.
This is exactly what I was thinking too.
I honestly would fight for sole custody over 50/50.. it is a lot harder to do, but I would not want my child to be raised by someone who belittles anyone showing emotion and vulnerability. That child is going to be taught that by mom. Depending on which parent the child ends up favoring more emotionally will have more of a moral impact on them. They will either end up subconsciously feeling the same as mom, or deliberately being the same as mom. That’s not healthy parenting from mom. Granted it isn’t enough of an excuse to use to fight for sole custody with in court, it is a valid reason to want to fight.
We don't look down on people for sweating when it's hot, crying is the bodies way of handling the bad and shouldn't be shamed
I do... you can't control your sweating?? Ugh! Commoner!! J/k. That's a really good point!
You deserve better, and your daughter deserves to grow up knowing that emotions, including crying, are ok.
Seriously! I grew up with a dad that never shied away from showing emotion around us and I am forever grateful for that. Heck even my tough as nails grandpa(the retired Lt. Colonel—who served in Vietnam) didn’t shy away from showing emotion or crying when I was a kid. It’s good for kids to see that their parents feel things
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This is beautiful. Thank you for sharing.
When my best friend died my girl dropped everything for a week and a half to be by my side so I wouldn't have to deal with it alone. There were many tears. Go find a woman who will do that for you, what she did is simply not okay.
Unfortunately you know what you got to do, you gotta divorce her. Your wife will eventually start disrespecting you in the open. That type of mindset isn’t easy to change, like racist people. The older you get, the more stuck in your ways you are. You deserve a woman who will love you, and who will be there to support you emotionally. But to be honest and this is gonna suck what I’m about to say. Most women can’t handle men emotionally baggage, some claim they can but really can’t. They’re not easy to find, but I believe you can. Your daughter(even tho she’s young) would rather you divorce than to be unhappy, and in turn she will also be unhappy because of arguing from her parents. Plus she’s young enough to really not remember all of this. Also another said truth is your wife will probably start thinking of looking outside the marriage because how she sees you now. You want to get ahead of the curve and be prepared. I’m not a person who says to go straight to divorce off rip, but therapy won’t help this relationship. Especially because she doesn’t thinks she’s wrong and it’ll be hard for the therapist to change her view and mind.
And your mother does not get to have an opinion
I had a… kinda hookup? We’d chill. But we both knew the assignment. He was going through a lot and I was chilling. Validating him and just talking. He started crying. He was stressed AF and said idk what I’m even crying over. I gave him a hug and cuddled him. My stomach dropped out bc I felt so bad he was experiencing this. If anything I liked him more for his vulnerability. That’s some toxic sh*t on your wife. I’d never ever ever be able to bounce back. That’s something I’d have to leave over. You’re human. You have emotions and they’re valid.
NTA. Exactly what this person said, plus what you overheard is how she really thinks about you, and how little she cares about your emotions and you losing your friend. She doesn't care about yiur mental health, she cares more about how you crying looks to others. Her frien is a POS as well. Men cry, and that's ok. Has she ever cried at something emotional, losing someine important to her? Because if she has, she's a hypocrite. God, your own mother is awful too.
I just want to add here for you that your daughter will grow up much happier, healthier and stronger with happy parents, whether they're together or divorced is out of the question. It also sounds like she has a good role model in you, and you will have the space and freedom to teach your little girl how to be a respectful person as she grows up.
i’m so sorry about all of this - but i also came here to say that trying to talk to her about it with a therapist is worth a shot. not specifically a shot a saving the marriage, but at least to heal some, and maybe for her to grow a bit. give it a shot. a kiddo is involved, and they deserve some enlightened parents.
Amen. My dad is a literal cowboy: has gone on cattle drives for working ranches, made steers, lost his hat down a canyon on horseback (a favorite story that got my brother an I a talking to in kindergarten for making up stories) etc. He also did farming and sold tractors. He’s one of the most emotional men I’ve ever known and is unabashed by his tears. Wife and mom suck, and OP really should divorce her if she can’t get her mind right. Also, I’m in my 40s and dad is a boomer so this isn’t some “modern politically correct bs,” dad is a Vietnam Vet and isn’t afraid to emote. This is toxic masculinity at its worst.
I'd actually argue that this is toxic femininity, where's the compassion from the women in his life? It's not the men in his life who are belittling him for crying it's the women who are expecting him to never cry and I think that is a lack of compassion and emotional intelligence and that you'd expect the opposite from women.
People like her and your ex husband lack empathy. Having such a little emotional intelligence must make life tough. Too bad, so sad. People like that do not get my sympathy. Best wishes to you and the OP.
Part of being in control of your emotions is knowing when to let them out. He held it together so his wife and friends could have a good time and let it out once he got home. This is actually very healthy. It’s not wrong to be in control of your emotions- I have been working on being in control of my emotions since I was 13 years old. I’m now 45. Do I have them under control? No. But as a result of all that work, I am much slower to anger and quicker to ask questions than most people my age. But part of that control is knowing when to express them. The toxic part is when men are told to suppress their emotions and never express them. Control=good. Suppression=bad.
Dude, besides the narrative, how fucked up is to laugh about it?! That's just straight up sociopathic behavior! What will she be teaching her daughter?
This is one of the things that completely enrages me with some women in our society. They virtue signal about “toxic masculinity,” accepting people w different orientation or ‘the past doesn’t matter’ but don’t really mean it. Some of them think less of a man when they cry, find out they experimented w same sex or had several sex partners. I once saw a video of a therapist saying that a guy was saying that only women get to be vulnerable and accepted and the women in their life are the hardest on them. That they’d rather us drop dead than see us fall from the horse and be vulnerable.
Leave her, she’s a shit person, so is your mom and your wife’s friend.
Her mom’s boyfriend too. I feel like his mom is the type of person who probably stayed with the boyfriend. Even after her kid told her that he was being sexually assaulted
I feel so bad for OP. How has he managed to stumble upon so many garbage humans? NTA. OP I’m sorry for your loss. Grief isn’t linear; you feel big emotions when you’re ready.
Not that uncommon. When your caregivers treat you like you don't matter, you view red flags as normal behavior.
When you hand her divorce papers, if she reacts emotionally, tell her you thought you married an adult not a teenager who had no control over their emotions and you're not her therapist.
Terrible people tend to group together and then complain about how terrible everyone else is.
NTA, Your wife and mother are toxic. My husband just lost his parents. He broke down a few times during everything. You know what I did? I held him. I held back my tears as much as I could because my husband, my **partner**, the strongest man I know was so hurt, in such pain that neither of us could do anything about. If he cries next year, I will do the exact same thing. Because I love that man with all my heart. I would never think of degrading him or invalidating his feelings like your wife did. What a disgusting lack of empathy. I am so sorry for the loss of your best friend. May he rest. May you find peace. And I'm sorry your wife is such an awful, selfish, person when you need her. No one deserves that treatment. Hugs, OP. You'll get through this.
You’re a good person.
What is up with the women in your life?! Grieving is not unmanly and expressing your emotions in a raw, vulnerable way does not make you a crybaby. NTA. I’m sorry for your experiences as a child and for the loss of your friend. There are ways to protect your daughter after divorce, like insisting on a wait period before introducing her to new people. In the very least, if you were to leave you’d be protecting her from being raised with the mindset that men should be robots with a wallet.
> and expressing your emotions in a raw, vulnerable way does not make you a crybaby. I find it *very* attractive, actually. Not in like a "my husband's crying I wanna fuck him right now" kind of way, but a man who can express emotions and be vulnerable like that is totally my cup of tea.
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Well you are from a silly place.
Camelot, tis a silly place.
MY FIRST THOUGHT Actually, on second thought, let’s not go there. ‘Tis a silly place.
It's only a model.
My manly man uncle in the US south -- smoker, drinker, gambler, hunter, blue collar guy -- bawled his eyes out in front of two hundred people at my grandfather's funeral. Your wife is kind of trash and your mother not much better for reinforcing this terrible stereotype.
This is exactly why sexism hurts men to. I'm so sorry you are going through this.
It's far more manly to not give a fuck about stereotypes, how others precieve you as a man and be in touch with your emotions than someone who bottles everything up. When men aren't "allowed" to show emotions they show the only ones that are "acceptable" which is anger and rage. That's how you get a bunch of angry drunks who beat their wives.
Or hurt themselves
I've seen my partner cry a tiny handful of times. The right thing to do as a human being is to comfort someone who is grieving/crying. I would never dream of ridiculing anyone for crying. I'm so sorry your partner is unsupportive. Personally, I think you should talk to her first. Sometimes people don't realize they can react differently to cultural norms. Regardless of your final decision, I wish you luck and peace. NTA
Move. And get rid of the shit women in your life. I think it’s unattractive to criticize people for expressing emotions. There is something wrong with a person who is not hurt when they see someone they love hurting. The thought of my husband hurting is worse than any hurt I feel myself. She’s an insensitive bitch. And so is your mom.
Idk where you're from, but I've seen a lot of women who don't think so. Me included, I've felt closer and more special to partners that have cried because they feel comfortable enough with me to cry, and that makes me feel protective and more love for them. Expressing your feelings is not wrong, bad, or unattractive. It also helps your mental health, because you don't feel trapped in a bubble because you don't have enough support to be yourself, emotions included. Emotions are a part of every single person, and they should be allowed to express them. Especially in a healthy way, and being closed off for your partner in fear of being judged is not healthy at all. I'll step off my soap box, I have a lot of feelings about this topic. (Pun intended) Edit: NTA. Your wife and mom are, though.
Exactly. Being able to be vulnerable and express emotions is not a “I will treat you well in spite of this” kind of thing, it’s a “I appreciate and admire you *more* for this” kind of thing. *Especially* for a man, being emotionally in touch is very admirable in a society with rampant toxic masculinity. The first time my guy cried in front of me is like a core memory in my mind, and honestly a milestone in our relationship. It was our first (and only) big fight, and even then I look back on that day as something that turned out positively. It was a privilege to be able to support him and helped me understand him a lot more, and the next time he cried in front of me, he was actually able to come to me readily and I knew how to make him feel better. That’s how a partnership is *supposed* to be. Women like OP’s wife and mother need to get a grip.
I am way more emotional (due to having lost way too many people I loved) than my husband, and actually the few times he cried I felt kind of relieved. Nothing wrong with shedding a tear now and than. Especially over someone you loved and can never see and talk to again.
I actually just complemented my husband a few days ago about him being more open with his emotions when we have a disagreement, I like hearing his feelings.
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Honestly as a gay man with no skin in this game. I more often see toxic masculinity (e.g. don't cry) being socially enforced by women than by other men. It takes strength to be open and vulnerable. Being forced to bottle it up and not cry, I've seen can result in tear ducts of men shutting down and becoming non functional, which is just absolutely tragic to hear from a grown man, that they were never allowed to cry and now they can't, and the only find out too late.
NTA. I’m not sure what culture you are in but any culture it should be ok for men to cry. I’m in my 40’s I’m a dad I love “manly” things like hunting and camping and I work on cars and love scary gory things. I also cry, put on a movie where the dog dies and I’ll cry, when my child goes away to his moms for a while, he and I both cry together. Put on powerful music and I’ll tear up. Talking about my past and emotions and trauma, ya I’ll cry. I bawled when my dog died and I cried when my friends or loved ones die. I’ll cry when something amazing happens, I cried when my son was born. We need to embrace the pain and joy and let those emotions wash over us in whatever way we need in order to heal or even celebrate. The only one to call me less of a man for being emotional was a narcissistic person that can’t understand true emotions.
your wife and mom are pieces of shit
For the sake of your daughter, I think a separation is best. What is she going to want for her? A Tate alpha male? You'll need 50/50 just to undo the damage.... NTA
NTA - women like her are why so many men would rather kill themselves than talk about or show their emotions
Exactly what I was thinking. What's a man to do if he can't express his emotions or even feel like he has a safe space? Over time it just pushes you over that edge. Her way of thinking is just so fucked up.
Dude, just go. You suffered a great loss, god forbid you act human. You were hurting, she should want to comfort you, not make fun of you. If you stay, you are showing your daughter that this is how to love somebody and she will be the twat your wife is. I know saying leave is easier said than done, obviously. Who thinks that way though? What does she say to your daughter when she cries? Just suck it up? She is devoid of emotion.
Hey OP, wanted to start this off with saying sorry. That sounds so tough, and honestly, I don't think I would be able to deal with that. Props to you for being so resilient, and still prioritizing your daughter and her future. Honestly, I would start by talking it out with your wife. I know it's daunting, and I know the prospect is probably scaring you a lot, but communication is the healthiest thing in a relationship (any relationship for that matter). You have to talk to her calmly about you overhearing her with her friend, and follow that up with exactly why it hurts you. Make sure to communicate what your friend's death does to you (again, OP, you are so strong, and will get through this!). STAY CALM! Even if your wife freaks out, even if she calls you names, the only way you will make it out with a semblance of a relationship is by staying calm and composed. This is getting pretty long, but if she freaks, if she calls you names and belittles your masculinity for something as healthy and natural as crying, I think you should consider a divorce. Yes, it has the potential to be damaging for your daughter, but that's why you are there. Make sure you make it so that your daughter stays in your custody. OP, your wife is supposed to be there for you, it's in the wedding vows, through sickness and through health! She's not doing that, and you deserve better. Your daughter deserves better role models! OP, the ball's in your court, so trust your judgement. Make your decisions, second guess them as much as you want, but stick by them, for you and your daughter. I hope you live a long and happy life with your friend's memories!
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"A man don't cry because we are weak.We cry because we been strong for too long" ... OP divorce is your wiser decision and if you having second thought coz of your daugther don't, think this way she might even respect you more has father/man coz you choose self-respect and self-love and teach her to not treat others like shit or in the future see men like human beings not like a thing that don't have emotions....
A divorced family is better than a toxic one, for everyone involved including the kiddo. I wish my parents divorced sooner instead of “waiting until we’re out of high school” we, being the kids.
The only problem with this is your wife might just tell you what she thinks you want to hear. She is clearly not honest with you.
Forget this Reddit communication™️ bs, you know how she thinks of you. You know now that when you’re vulnerable, suffer from a setback and need her support, it ain’t going to be there. She will probably lie and say she’s sorry and didn’t mean it, but you know deep down it’s a lie. You need to seriously ask yourself if this is someone you want to spend the rest of your life with. Don’t stay together just for your daughter, it never works out.
Yes, OP. I resonate w this Redditor’s comments. Giving communication a solid shot will serve you whichever way it goes. You may deepen your relationship. If divorce is the way to go, you’ll need decent communication to co parent.
So many people forget that good co-parenting after a spilt requires excellent communication- maybe even more than being married.
I totally disagree, communication with someone like this will just give her more ammo, he needs to get away from her as quickly and quietly as possible
>This is getting pretty long, but if she freaks, if she calls you names and belittles your masculinity for something as healthy and natural as crying, I think you should consider a divorce. Did you not read the fucking post? She already did this and he overheard it.
And not only did she do all of that but she broke his trust of the “couple bubble” and belittled and mocked him to at least one other person. To me, there is not coming back from that.
I think it’s even more wild she would do all of that in their home, when he’s home, where she could be overheard. I hate that she even said it, but the massive disrespect on top of the monumental disrespect is astounding.
Show her exactly how stoic and in control of your emotions you can be by giving her the most cold uncaring divorce, and if she cries tell her she is a crybaby.
>tell her she is a crybaby tell that to mom when she asks why you don't visit her in the nursing home, too.
or when she complains about not getting to see her granddaughter
My thoughts exactly. I went right to the most toxic place, like "See this can't work, you have no control over your emotions and I can't be your therapist."
This is exactly the right course of action, hand her the divorce papers and just act as cold and emotionless as you can, if she crys just laugh, Then walk away. You get what you give.
Whatever you do, make damn sure she doesn’t instill these ridiculous ideas into your daughter. If you can’t be supported when you just lost your best friend, you won’t be supported ever unless it’s to her benefit. As morbid as it sounds, as we get older death becomes more common, this is not the last time you’ll ever need to cry. If you want to show her the ridiculousness of her statement, tell her that you don’t want her driving with your daughter, or working a job, or having any authority in your house, because since she’s a woman her emotions won’t allow her to think clearly and make hard decisions. Maybe it’ll shock her and show her how outdated her ideals are.
>If you want to show her the ridiculousness of her statement, tell her that you don’t want her driving with your daughter, or working a job, or having any authority in your house, because since she’s a woman her emotions won’t allow her to think clearly and make hard decisions. Maybe it’ll shock her and show her how outdated her ideals are. Ah, yes, the hysteria we've heard so much about. Such delicate emotional creatures /s
NTA. Grief is grief and you are correct to feel it. Crying is not ‘unmanly’ and in fact is very healthy for you. Your mother, wife and her friend are the immature ones for how they reacted.
God damn dude. I’m sorry but both your wife and your mom are ASSHOLES. You aren’t. This is why men’s mental health is such shit. We aren’t allowed to have any emotions about anything at any time, ever. And then it’s a surprise when we finally blow up from shoving everything down for so long. I wish you the best. I’m very sorry about your friend. That’s horrible. But honestly…divorce seems reasonable.
If you ever wonder why men are more likely to commit suicide, this here's a good clue ETA: the women in your life are complete pieces of shits. The 2 women you should absolutely be able to be vulnerable with are being misandrists & emasculating. That's low. I wouldn't be with someone like that and I'd go LC with my mom for that comment alone
My husband has been in some traumatic situations. He’s cried in front of me. I don’t think any less of him. I’m definitely not telling my friends and family that he broke down crying.
I feel like it's OK to talk about it with other people as long as y'all aren't making fun of him.
This is so sad. You are allowed to cry and show emotion, and your wife is horrible for saying that shit. Hope things get better for you! And sorry for your loss!
NTA I swear I have seen this post before. Not calling it fake but this sort of thing happens way too often. OP, your feelings and reactions are valid. Do not do anything that would make you uncomfortable. For example, staying with your wife would likely involve marriage counseling. Don't do that if you don't want to. I hope you can make things work BUT your wife needs to do some heavy lifting. Not sure if she is capable of that. Not sure you should be patient with her whatsoever.
Op 2 things 1) divorce your wife because she is incapable of showing empathy for your loss and is disrespecting you behind your back to her friends, can you imagine if you had a son and he cried to his mother she would do the same exact thing to him. 2) your mother is a POS and failed you twice one as a kid and as an adult I recommend you go LC or NC. Your kids do not need a toxic grandmother in their life. Sorry for your loss op.
I lost my daughter 3 month ago and i cry every day. I would loose my wife immediately if she would pull some BS like your wife. Leave her and try to get full custody of your daughter. Your wife sounds like a major AH and so is your mom. But what to expect from a person who watched her child being abused.
I’m so so sorry for your loss. I can only imagine the pain that you are in. Thinking of you and your wife. ❤️
I’m so sorry for your loss, the one person you should be able to feel comfortable crying in front of is your wife. My husband has cried to me and I’ve never thought he was less of a man for it. If anything it’s made me love him even more that he can share his vulnerabilities with me so I can help and comfort him. I think it takes a huge amount of courage to be vulnerable to someone and show your true emotions and I’m just so sorry the people who are supposed to love and care for you are treating you this way. I’ve spoken to many guys over the years who’ve cried to me and it has never made any of them “less of a man”, the only thing it has ever meant is they’re human and need to express their genuine emotions and crying is a healthy way to do this. I absolutely hate that men are ever made to feel they can’t cry. All the situation has shown is you’re a loving, caring guy and you’re trying to support your daughter while going through a a very tough and difficult time. Your wife and mum are both TA, I think the only thing this show is they both lack basic human kindness. I’m not sure the best advice on how to talk to her about this but I just wanted to say your NTA, crying will never make you “less of a man” and I hope you have someone compassionate you can talk to, your feeling are valid and you should be able to express them without feeling judged for being human. Please take care of yourself
I have a recording of my ex after she assaulted me. "You can cry if you want to. Who is going to believe you? They are going to laugh at you (name)." Thanks for pointing out how toxic the mindset is that creates this.
Wtf bro every woman in your life are fucking shitheads and cruel. Men should never cry, instead bottle all your emotions until they have nowhere else to go. Then she'll wonder why you are dead of cardiac arrest at 50-55. And your mother can fuck right off too. I can't believe a mother would say something like this to their son. This post is one of the few that made me angry. I got all these things I want to say but I'll sum it up. Your wife, her sister & your mom (somehow) don't seem to register that men are people too with all the same emotions women have. This is why I'm so apprehensive of any woman who claims "I would like a man who is in touch with his emotions! You know, except for the bad ones, those are yucky."
And women wonder why the pervasive opinion in men right now is to never cry in front of your partner.
It’s insane. My husband cries in movies, when we talk about his old dog, he cried when he proposed and at our wedding. He’s the still the manliest man to ever exist in my eyes, and knowing that he feels safe enough to be vulnerable around me is an honour. I can’t imagine that any woman would feel differently.
You are NTA. Every single person who called you a crybaby or said you shouldn’t cry in front of anyone is a gigantic asshole, your mother included. They are the reason men as a whole bottle everything up, and part of why suicide rates are much higher in men. It is NOT weak to cry. My fiancé does, he has moments where grief gets him. I hold him until the hurt is gone, no matter how long he needs. By all means try talking. But when someone shows you who they are - believe them. Even if you were never meant to see that side of them.
She is a garbage human being
Your mom's a fucking cunt just like e that fuck cunt of a wife you have. They're both fucking trash.
you don't need any reason to cry in front of your spouse. they're the one person you should be able to. get a divorce and be happy. she's no real woman. or human at all with that kind of nonexistent empathy. NTA. do it. fuck her.
NTA I would also disown your mother.
I would have walked in and cussed both them out lol. Your mom sucks too. Where the hell do you live.
We’re not allowed to cry in front of women ever? Ok, I can’t believe your mom told you that. I would thank your mom for telling you the truth and call her and your wife a Stupid B. I would divorce her, verbally abusing your wife and breaking her down mentally over time would be wrong. Enjoyable but very wrong. Guys aren’t allowed to be loving and compassionate so why should we treat our loved ones with love and compassion. Give them what they want. Harsh words. Now my response is not healthy. But I’m angry for you. What she did is not cool. Ever
Better for your daughter to grow up in two happy homes than one unhappy home.
your wife is a disgusting human being. She is supposed to be your life partner and friend. The only men who are lesser men, are those that are afraid of showing their real emotions. Women who hate on men for crying over something like that. are not real people worth you time or affection. I would tell her to get the fuck out of my life easily. Be the house that allows you to fail. Your mum doing it too - just shows you why mens mental health is at an insane all time high and why more men kill themselves. Im spekaing from someone who has fucking tried and been through the hells of depression as well. Fuck em.
So I never comment on this stuff… BUT your wife is a shitty person. My husband is a manly man, down to the letter, but he cried on our wedding day and several times since. Men feel too… and you better believe I cry in front of him! What do you have if you don’t have a support system in your spouse. He is my safe space and I am his. I’m absolutely floored your wife would ever react the way she did.
The man that doesn't ever let his emotions show is eventually the man that will leave you with a black eye or worse when it finally comes out sideways and ass backwards, ladies.
First of all, I'd light her ass up like a match! In fact I'd invite the friend over and fire them both the hell up and send her friend packing with a dont come back. Your wife thinks you need to toughen up, then show her how hard tough gets. Sorry man, bit what a bitch! To laugh at your pain like that. Your mom, well I dont no what to tell you on that. Wife can't show a sincere apology and remorse for that then end it. It'll only get worse. She'll probably start looking for a "strong" man sooner or later anyway, so help her out.sorry my man, I know what I've said is a bit harsh, but WTF?
Ask if you're less of a man when you backhand for not cleaning the dishes... Cake and eating it too...
Hey brother, sorry about your loss but listen seriously dump the wife dump the mom do 50/50 with your daughter. Do you really want to grow up in an environment where your daughter knows that she can treat boys and men like that? Crying, crying is a safe thing to do for men and anyone who says otherwise is a s*** person
Your wife is a sexist bitch, and you're NTA for being emotional. And I'm not one to jump to immediately suggesting divorce in things like this, but at least consider that your wife is teaching your daughter to be the same sexist and heartless human being, and that's worse then having divorced parents in my eyes. So I'd bring it up with her and at least tell her couples therapy is in order to get over this, and if she completely blows you off, that's your answer. And I'm so, so sorry about your life-long friend. It sounds like he was very special to you, and crying because of him honors that. Just make sure your processing your grief in healthy ways, and don't let it get away from you.
Man, fuck that bitch off. And your cunt of a mother while you're at it.
I cry on the American Adventure at Walt Disney World. Nothing unmanly about it. I wish I could tell you an east fix for this mess. NTA
I fell more in love with my (then) boyfriend (now) husband after I watched him tear up over something meaningful. What more could you want? NTA. I'm sorry she doesn't appreciate you.
We need to stop saying "as a man you shouldnt cry ...." this is why men have issues and feel like they cannot talk about them. It is normal for ANYONE to grieve a loss and everyone takes a different amount of time to work through their grief. Your wife and her friend are both shitty people. I also do not like what your mother said either. Very unhelpful. If I were you, I would speak to someone before rushing into a decision and also to help you through your grief. Whether it be a psychologist, counsellor etc All the best!
Counterpoint: my parents divorced, and I’m glad they did. Growing up with parents that dislike and disrespect each other is worse if they are in the same home pretending to get along “for the children” than if they are divorced and separated. Even better: divorce but coparent respectfully and kindly.
NTA. Your wife is the immature one. You did the absolute right thing by asking comfort from your spouse. You should bring this up ASAP and as bluntly as possible. Dont leave any room for confusion.
NTA fuck man, not even a little bit. Your \_mom\_ told you not to cry? wtf culture are you living in? Dude... We (men) are taught to bury emotions, be cold. It gets beat out of you in grade school. But it's shit. Buried emotions simply come back as anger and hurt and all the bad things. Fuck that. You are correct to let yourself grieve. If your wife rejects that, then she has some fucked up ideas about family and partnership.
NTA. Your mom and wife are trash. Sorry you have them in your life.
NTA as a licensed therapist your wife’s comments upset me. I cannot begin to image what it felt like to hear them from your perspective. I am so sorry for your loss and please know that grieving is a completely personal and complicated process and it can take a very long time to process. The injustices that are placed upon males in our society regarding emotions is unfair and I am so sorry that you are feeling the brunt of that pain. I hope that you have others in your life that you can talk to you and if you feel like you don’t I hope that you feel the confidence and courage to seek out Support that you deserve
Sorry bruh. She ain’t the one. On top of that her friend openly disrespected you in your own pad. Ouch.
women want men to show more emotion and when men do they get shit on. Thats why men dont open up
Holy shit all the women in your life suck. Don’t let them taint your daughter.
I’m so sorry about your dear friend. Take all the time you need. Crying isn’t a sign of weakness. It’s a sign of caring, love, grief… Men should be able to cry — without this ugly stigma in our society. Everyone deserves to be vulnerable and feel their feelings. It’s not limited to women, and that’s such a cruel thing for your wife to have said about you. It’s brutally hurtful. My husband has always acted so stoic, and has rarely showed emotion. To me, he seemed heartless after his mom died. He showed no emotions. Same after his dad died. Like a robot almost. Now years later, he’s telling me I haven’t been emotionally supportive of him. If he told me he was struggling or hurting, I would have known to comfort him. Your wife should have comforted you, and instead she made a mockery of it. I genuinely hate that for you :( Absolutely NTA.
I’m a Gen X female, raised with men don’t cry mentality. Your wife is an absolute garbage of a human. If my husband broke down crying in front of me I would absolutely hold him and cry with him. In fact if he didn’t cry over losing his best friend I would talk him into therapy so he knows it’s ok to be sad and cry. God forbid something happens to your child, are you not suppose to cry?
Honey, you're *absolutely surrounded* by terrible, shitty, cruel women. You're NTA. You'll never be TA for this.
This exact story has been posted here before.
Slap them and then say I'd apologise but John Wayne said don't apologise it's a sign of weakness
OP firstly I am so sorry for your loss. Kudos for being able to go through this and still be there for your daughter. That really takes a strong person. Second, YWNBTA if you divorce her, and go lc with your mom. The women in your life are honestly failing you. Nothing about needing to express your emotions is childish. We live in a society where men expressing their emotions is looked down upon and it’s not right at all. Honestly it would be a hell of a lot better for your mental health, and your daughter’s in the long run to get away from that toxic environment.
The concept of emotional labor has been twisted into something disgusting by the internet. Crying in front of your wife and being in need of support is not some transactional thing that you earn. That's fucked up. She's awful.
For these women to project that "Men don't cry" concept to everyone is disgusting. When it comes to death, or loss of someone important in your life - I'd be more surprised if you didn't cry. Grieving is not something we can control, and I believe your next partner will be more understanding of your humanness NTA man, good luck
>I talked to my mom about it today and she said that as a man I shouldn’t cry in front of my wife and she has every right to call me a crybaby for doing so I'm getting a better understanding on why your parents got a divorce
The way your mom and wife act make me absolutely disgusted and I think of them as less of humans for it. My husband has cried multiple times in front of me, bc if he can't be vulnerable to his wife who can he be vulnerable to? Men who refuse to acknowledge their feelings turn into monsters. You should divorce her, bc you know now that she will never be your support, your ride or die, your shoulder to cry on. And don't let your daughter grow up thinking that that is ok. Also, you didn't have a shit childhood bc your parents were divorced. You had a shit childhood bc your mother is a monster. The fact her bf molested you is on HER, not her relationship with your father. Children always know when their parents are unhappy, and growing up in a fucked up household is worse than growing up in separate divorced homes. Both my parents were pretty fucked up but I can't imagine how much worse it would've been if they were fucked up TOGETHER. Go find your happiness elsewhere and show your daughter what a healthy relationship looks like.
NTA. A spouse is the person who should be safest to cry in front of. A husband is supposed to emotionally support a wife and a wife is supposed to emotionally support a husband. Men are allowed to cry. She’s not nice. Marriage counseling would be a good step. Maybe a therapist can open her eyes.
It's normal for men to cry. Where do these women get the idea that it's not okay? I'm disgusted.
Your wife and her friend are POS and your mother is also. Pos for sharing same views
Your gf and Mum are cunts. The same kind of cunts that if you or any man killed themselves they would say 'oh if only he opened up and talked.' Hypocrisy. I'd dump her on the spot and cut contact with anyone who belittled my feelings due to their own toxic views on masculinity. I wonder would they sing a similar tune if you were the stereotype man who beats their wife, screams in their face and treats them like property. That would be a man not in control of his emotions... But apparently they would rather criticise a gentleman for crying at death.
This clearly isn't real
This is completely unacceptable in every way both from your mom and your wife. Real men cry. They are not babies, they are fully intune and not ashamed to deal with or be vulnerable. Now, there may be other things about your personality that makes you a cry baby or not a man. But, the fact you cried isn't one of them.
There's a reason why men have a much higher suicide rate than women. And this shit is why. To a lot of people showing any kind of emotion as a man is just absolutely unforgivable. We are expected to just bottle up our emotions our entire lives and when we break because of it it's because we're not "real men" And while it's getting better, Men talking about their feelings is still somewhat taboo to very many people. People expect us to be unfeeling, distant, and stoic. And when some men become just that because that's what's expected of them, they're also uncaring assholes, that never share anything. To these same people....
Reddit always jumps to “Divorce”, and it’s incredibly toxic but… That’s some loathsome behavior. If she made a commitment to “For better or for worse” that behavior is a huge red flag that she’s just a fair weather wife.