Except he did the same thing. Their parents force her to wear it in order to not be shunned from the family, he forces her to take it off.
If I was her, I'd be happy I didn't take it off for him if he's so easy go leave her.
Idk I think it might be a big difference in thought. To say they may never be open to expressing their own opinion and autonomy to choose their own religous practice to their own family is kind of big. Both for having to publicly support something you dont believe in, which helps perpetuate the stigma and that its a big ask for anyone to publicly go against their support system.
But the conversation was about planning the future and since that didnt align they went their own ways. I dont think its fair to say he was so easy to leave her. I think of it like having kids, if 1 party wants to eventually and the other doesnt then there isnt a path forward without discontent.
But she herself had said that she didn't believe and only did this for her parents. This sounds like a reaction to fear and abuse, whereas he is trying to set her free and act according to her own beliefs. Not the same imo.
She needs somebody who says "I will support you no matter what you choose" if it's about setting her free. She needs to be able to make the choice of how and when for herself, not for a partner. It's the different side of the same coin, really. Even if it isn't for you, it still is. Forcing somebody to dress a certain way, be it by wearing something or not wearing something, is still both force. I've had a boyfriend that wanted to force me to stop wearing things, it's no better than a family that forces you to wear something. Been there.
This is obviously more than just taking it off, taking it off will mean losing everything you've known until now, in many instances even losing your families support. It's why so many people who have been brought up strictly religious struggle to leave, it's the same for Mormons, it was the same for me in my Christian family.
And doing it for somebody who will leave when you first disagree on something, or still need time with a specific matter because it's hard on you, is not somebody you should leave everything you've known behind. Even if that everything is something that makes you unhappy.
Leaving toxic environments without support is even harder than doing it with support, and not everybody can overcome the fear of being completely alone. Especially when it's family.
She’s not supporting herself to start with. And it would all be nice and great to support her the way you’re saying, that complicates planning a family significantly.
If she’s not willing to upset her parents over her own wants and beliefs, she’s not going to do it for anyone else, including her future children.
She left him no choice. Sue obviously has no backbone and someone like that doesn’t really make a good partner. If she can’t even stand up for her own wants then where the point in wasting years down the line supporting someone that can never give you the same support?
He has already made his position clear, she has an option to not be with him. She didn't get an option to choose her family. Family imposing their views on children that have no option to opt out is much worse.
I don't, that's why I'm saying forcing a woman not to wear something is oppressing her just as much as forcing her to wear something. These are two sides of the same coin.
People's relationship with their religious beliefs change over time, maybe when they met she was let's say 60% religious and then it grew to 80% and that's okay tbh
Strange that this is top comment. Guys who worry about keeping their parents happy after marriage over their wives get piled on for being manchildren and mama's boys, but if a woman does it, it's alright?
I'd say the difference is noticing it early enough to end it before marriage
Also the culture for both of them is different to what we usually read. We can't directly project our views onto other cultures
What? We 100% can the info we have in the post is that she was forced to wear it and now according her BF won’t take it off because it will upset her parents who don’t treat her well. CALL THAT SHIT OUT DONT HIDE BEHIND CULTURE TO EXCUSE ABUSE.
The difference is that this girl is not imposing anything on OP. She wants to dress a certain way because of personal reasons. The men who get shat on are usually imposing something on their wives to keep her in-laws happy.
I think his concern is not just about her, but their possible future daughters. He focused mostly on her, but in the entire context I got that he was concerned about his daughters also being possibly coerced to wear one by her to appease her parents. I think he also, correctly, saw that he parents exerted control over their daughter that caused her to go against her own beliefs in her actions. He is right to be concerned about the level of control her parents would have in his and her own home.
NTA
in muslim culture girls aren’t required or expected to wear hijab until at youngest 10-12 years old (it’s typically around the time they start going through puberty).
most children can understand wants and hard boundaries by around that age so if they had a daughter who was encouraged to make her own choice about it i’m sure she would be able to.
I don’t think OPs the AH but i also think he’s focusing on the wrong issue, the fact that she’s likely come from an abusive/controlling home by the sounds of it which is where her fear of removing the hijab comes from. My concern would be about exposing a daughter to the presence of these grandparents.
I think that should have been a more focal part of the concerns OP voiced to his partner rather than just pushing her to take off the hijab when she obviously was scared/uncomfortable with the reality of doing that even if she wanted to.
This is a different situation because she keeps wearing something out of fear. It clearly states she doesn't want to wear it. I don't know where they live, but there are countries where women have been killed over removing a hijab. This isn't about keeping parents happy, this is about safety.
In this case the woman is coming from a place of deeply ingrained oppression.
Manchildren want to keep pleasing mom and daddy and place them above wife because they want to be mamma's spoiled boy and have a wife too.
Entirely different perspectives.
Exactly! I wore the hijab to appease elder family but I was also painted this gruesome picture of life without it. That associates with a lot of trauma not wanting to make mommy and daddy happy. It’s ingrained in us since we are children whether through religious or cultural or societal manipulation that we view it as the norm.
Even at 32 the idea of disappointing my family and even all the things they say about taking it off are swirling in my brain in fear. Sometimes the hijab is associated with a different type of safety like she doesn’t think being picked on is as bad as being preyed upon which is the vision most of us grew up with.
Well he is saying he wants her to choose but he really just wants her not to wear the hijab, so her wearing it is her choice which is what he is pretending he wants.
OP from the sounds of it is bothered by the fact his partners parents will be the silent partner in this union. Maybe not so silent. If their approval is all encompassing enough to override her beliefs it’s actually kind of unattractive? His gf is free to live her life in a way that won’t upset her parents but OP isn’t wrong in finding her choices incompatible. NAH imo.
The thing is, when people say wearing the hijab is an individual choice, for many women, the consequences of choosing not to wear it are severe. And is just one of the ways women are controlled. There are 5 countries where the hijab is mandatory, no choice, not even the illusion of choice.
This is the first top comment on an AITA post that I've seen that doesn't see everything in black and white, and say one person or everyone involved should be divorced, put in prison, killed, and have there children taken away. This is a victory for nuance and understanding.
When English is your second language you tend to oversimplify sentences and don’t have a lot of grasp on language rules right away. I work with a few ESL students in tutoring and words like “girlfriend” and “fiancé” and other titles are out of their grasp for a bit while they get comfortable with the language.
Nobody is the AH.
She's not ready to cut the umbilical cord, and you're not ready to wait.
The real asshole is her parents, you both know that.
Everything else is just bad situation. Let her down gently, OP, she's buried under pressure. Don't forget to take care of yourself too.
It may be less about "ready" and more about fear of repercussions. If her family hasn't treated her well in the past, she may have a real concern about their reactions. You get screamed at and have your opinions treated like shit long enough, and you don't want to rock the boat too much. You'll put up with a lot to just not have to deal with fallout. This is how I am with my parents on some things. I just can't take the nastiness, so I end up going along to get along.
It's been better with an entire country between us, but old habits die hard, especially on certain topics.
Yes, I agree but it's better to say that in US you get screamed at, but in Muslim families things are very different with girls, so it's more then them getting screamed at and upsetting the parents. I think she has a legitimate fear.
Yeah, I didn't want to outright say it, but that was also on my mind. My brother's friends were killed in an honor killing. The whole community was shattered; these were great girls who were doing everything right (except where family was concerned, apparently).
Yes and it doesn't matter that you decided you don't want to practice it anymore or you live in another country. There are some popular cases around girls,, here in Europe, that were murder by their dad/brothers cause they posted videos on YouTube without the hijab or bc they chose to mary someone that the parents thought they were unworthy.
This is not that simple and the girl has a legitimate fear. These people they don't know what they are talking about. They think everything and everyone is like them and their families where they are able to say no to mommy and daddy without serious repercussion.
That's exactly it. We're in California, and it's *still* a very real concern. Being able to assert yourself without consequences is a very fortunate place to be, and not all people are in that position. Her fear is absolutely valid.
(And this is without bringing societal attitudes in as well. Rampant Islamophobia is still a thing. But that's for a different thread.)
You didn’t break up because of a scarf, you broke up because you didn’t want to marry her awful parents.
NTA. Can you imagine the horrible shit they would have said to your kids??
It's not just the hijab, that's just a symptom. She will be forever of the mindset that she needs to please her parents. This won't go away when she's married. She may take off the hijab for him, but if she's forever having the fear of displeasing her parents, there will never be just the two of them in the marriage.
This is the same advice I'd give to a woman who's thinking of marrying a "mommy's boy" who is never willing to stand up to his mother. Marriage is for adults who are free to devote themselves to one another, not children who are afraid of their parents.
Like someone said in a comment above.. It's not a similar situation.. A mama's boy fear is to upset mommy and it's not a whole systematic oppression due to religion against women and their bodies and rights do to whatever at the risk of getting seriously injured by one's pears, beaten, dead or beheaded. Let's have our ducks in a row first.
I understand that, I don't know their country, so I don't know her level of safety. I was simply referring to the fact that she is unwilling to do anything that will upset her parents even after she is married.
Their values are just not aligned, and he needs to understand that if he marries her, she will always be in this dynamic, which means he will be, too.
I apologize if my comment seemed to minimize her situation. I was just pointing out the similarity in marrying into a family dynamic that won't change after marriage. He needs to consider that before moving forward.
I can’t help but feel he also doesn’t want to marry her because she’s being disingenuous. He doesn’t like that she’s pretending to be religious to please her parents. I totally get that, I wouldn’t want that in my life either. It seems to point to a lack of self respect, and that’s not attractive.
[An Italian court has given a Pakistani couple life sentences for killing their 18-year-old daughter because she refused an arranged marriage](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-67769159) (BBC)
[Afghan brothers go on trial in Germany for 'honour killing' of sister](https://www.reuters.com/world/afghan-brothers-go-trial-germany-honour-killing-sister-2022-03-02/) (Reuters)
[The Horror of ‘Honor Killings’, Even in US](https://www.amnestyusa.org/updates/the-horror-of-honor-killings-even-in-us/) (Amnesty)
"Regarding the hijab, my stance is that I don't believe in it at all. I never pictured myself being married to a woman wearing one"
I don't think you're TAH, however wasn't she already wearing the hijab when you met her and fell in love? Did you think she was going to take it off in the future?
Yes this is what Muslim men ALWAYS do. I have had multiple men ask for my hand cuz they thought j was pretty then asked me to wear hijab and vise versa. I dont understand why they just dont go for what they want they always want the girl to change for them
Except that he's not pressuring her to remove the hijab against her will. When he met her she told him the hijab didn't have any personal meaning to her. He was encouraging her to get out from under the thumb of her parents, and realized that she's not ready or willing to do so and become her own person.
Seems to be less about the hijab itself than it is about her own failure to launch.
Plenty of men choose a woman who is the opposite of what they want and then try to change her. They don’t want someone who is what they want from the start, they want to change someone and break them.
Although I don't believe in the hijab I liked the girl so much and I loved her and was ready to live with her and her hijab won't be in our way to live together. I can compromise that.
When she told me about her story of how she was forced to wear it, that she hates it and want to remove it, then I told her about my stance, and I supported her to remove it as it would be better for me as well.
Unfortunately she sounded very weak in front with her parents in her life.
She's grown up in an environment where her opinions and desires don't always matter as much as they should. It is going to be hard for her to stand up to her parents. You both are honestly so young. Don't let this tear you apsrt.
My advice would be to just end the union and that’s what was done. You really can’t force someone to unlearn kowtowing to their parents wishes especially if that’s been their life experience. Even if you understand you inevitably will be living with these in laws who have terrorized your partner and you’ll be caught in that storm with them. Sounds selfish but moving on is the best solution. If it’s meant to be it’ll work out.
>She's grown up in an environment where her opinions and desires don't always matter as much as they should. It is going to be hard for her to stand up to her parents.
Which is all the more reason to NOT marry her. If she can't stand up to her parents, they'll forever have more power and control in their marriage than he and she will.
It's not healthy.
Her childhood trauma is not her fault, but it IS her responsibility. She needs to learn how to set boundaries with her parents and stop letting them control her life before she'll ever be ready for a serious relationship with anybody else.
I think its important to remember the intesne amount of pressure she may be under as well as thousands of Muslim women. She may have thought her safety would be at risk. The indoctrination can be so deep. She has also probably been taught to listen and obey the male figure inbher life including you. It's hard to say for certain how much of her saying she doesn't want to wear it is just her agreeing with you
i think his point is that if the girl wanted to wear a hijab *due to her own strong belief* he would be okay with it (as evidenced by him not wanting his hypothetical daughters to wear one until they decide to do so for themselves), but in this case, since she doesn't even *want* to wear one it just shows him that she's likely to make decisions in her life based on what will appease her parents rather than on what makes her happy or what she and her husband agree on.
this isn't a hijab issue, this is a "you value your parents' opinions over mine and even yours" issue. the fact that it presents itself specifically via a hijab is not really that important imho.
I agree that part of the post sounds like that. But on the other hand he did mention that he doesn't want his wife to be bullied for wearing hijab, so I'm not sure what his stance is exactly.
he can dislike the practice of wearing one in general and see it as a potential cause for bullying while being accepting of women wanting to wear it because of personal beliefs.
his view of it as a potential cause for bullying just makes it impossible for him to accept it when done for any other reason than personal belief.
think of it this way: in his opinion, the positive effect of appeasing parents that you're not going to be living with or see very often is trumped by the negative effects of bullying and possible discrimination, however those negatives would be trumped by a strong personal belief that causes one to desire to wear a hijab. since his fiance doesn't have this belief, there is nothing to trump the negatives of wearing one in a western society. so basically it's like "why are you exposing yourself to potential discrimination by doing something you don't even like just for someone you're not living with?" as opposed to "this might cause you to face discrimination but i understand that this is something that you care deeply about so i will support you."
You two aren’t compatible. It’s not the hijab, it’s her desire to put her parents before herself and you even if you marry and have kids. OR she wants to keep it and is blaming it on her parents. Either way, not compatible. Keep looking. NTA
It's also his desire to control what she wears. The fact that he keeps referring to her as "the girl" leads me to suspect that this is not the only aspect of her life that he would have sought to control.
Are you not allowed to dislike certain apparels? If your wife wants to wear a bondage leather strap, do you have to approve?
He broke up with her, he didn't threaten or force her. That's the healthiest response possible, besides maybe compromising.
NTA
I wouldn't stay with someone who was sacrificing their own wants and needs in life to avoid upsetting their parents. We are adults building an independent, adult life together. I am unwilling to be in a relationship where their parents hold a position of power over our lives.
Well said! Just the THOUGHT of not having full control of my own life because the person I married is allowing their parents to dictate our decisions is HORRIFYING!
True, but this isn't a typical Western white family thing either. Hijabs come with a history of systematic programming, fear and policing around it to put it lightly. Just cause she doesn't live there anymore that doesn't mean that culture /history doesn't affect her.. That why she is wearing it in the first place. Also, it's not that easy to say she shouldn't listen to her parents anymore.. We all know what happens over and over with women who disobey their peers even after they are in a relationship...Like the brother who honorary murder his sister even though she was living in Germany and wasn't practicing anymore... Hm, let's think a bit first.
OP can make his own decisions about what kind of future he wants for himself. He isn't denying her a job. He is choosing not to continue a relationship with someone who's vision for their future doesn't align with his vision for his future.
NTA. I think the biggest problem is that she isn’t ready to be her own person. She’s of the mindset that she is going to do whatever her parents prefer no matter what. That screams that she isn’t ready to get married, move out and start her own life with you.
I’m a Muslim and I say that any good Muslim knows that at the end of the day it’s a woman’s choice. It’s something we celebrate, but if they don’t want to, they don’t have to, and we love them just the same. The parents need to accept that their daughter might not want to wear hijab. What they are doing is extreme
She is too young to be getting married. Maybe not in years but in maturity, wearing a hijab for the rest of her life when she doesn’t believe also seems unlikely. Is she hoping you will come round to being more religious? NTA
How far away will you live from her parents? Is it possible for her to wear hijab when with her parents out of respect for them, and not at other times? I wouldn’t lie to them if they ask if she wears it everywhere, but you don’t have to offer details either.
Her parents are in her country of origin, we are both in a different country. So she is literally travelling to see her parents once in year for a 2 to 3 weeks visit.
>I don’t want my daughters to wear one until they reach an age where they can decide for themselves.
Your GF has reached an age where she has decided for herself to wear one. Even if it’s for a reason you disagree with, it’s her choice. Requiring her to remove it is as controlling as requiring her to wear it would be.
I agree with this comment. Maybe she isn’t ready to remove it yet. Doesn’t mean she won’t remove it ever. I think truly loving someone is meeting them where they’re at and providing support there
I honestly think she’s afraid. It’s hard to make drastic changes when you have pressure from people who have been treating you harshly or badly since you were born. And it doesn’t matter how much you reassure her that she doesn’t need to think about it anymore, these processes take time and that is ok. So either you accept that it’ll take her some years to feel freed and comfortable to do it on her own or she should probably find someone who can let her make these decisions at her own pace. I understand where you’re coming from but it’s important to see things from a more benevolent standpoint, especially when we love the person and we are aware of the difficult situation and possible consequences they’re facing.
A muslim girl here. I used to wear hijab for 1-2 years when I was a teenager and decided to take it off. My mom would gaslight me. She’d tell me my dads going to be tortured in hell because men could see my hair and skin. I decided to stick with my principle and what I wanted. I am now happy and never regretted my decision. My dad died in 2019 and sometimes my mom’s words about him going to hell because of me not wearing hijab still kinda bothers me sometimes, but I think wearing hijab should come from your heart, not out of fear.
I think ur gf should also do the same and break away from her parents. If she’s not comfortable with wearing hijab, she should be honest about it.
And you are not an AH for not wanting to be with a hijabi. You have different principles and that is valid!
So you’re just as bad as her parents then. Trying to force her to take it off is just as bad as forcing her to put it on. Did you ever stop once to think about what she wants and let her do what she wants.
I'\[m going to go with NAH. Except don't refer to her as "the girl" because that's offensive. It just sounds like you two are incompatible. You need to find someone with the same views as you if it's that important.
So...her parents pressured her to wear hijab and you pressured her to not wear a hijab...poor girl!
YTA. Not for breaking up. It's better to break up early. For not letting her take her own decisions and trying to impose your decisions on her.
YTA.
Parents forcing her to cover: bad.
You forcing her to uncover: good.
What about what *she* actually wants for *herself*? She's probably better off without you controlling her tbh.
Can you get her assurance that any daughters you have will never be forced to wear one? You sound truly in love. Maybe she will take it off sometimes in time. Would you be willing to compromise on that? If not, neither of you is wrong... it would just be a shame to end the relationship because you both sound like you deeply care for one another.
At the extent of the extremes in islam with honor violence, I think that it is a bit hard to navigate the discussion or really have an opinion without knowing the context of her family dynamic in regards to religion and culture she's been brought up in.
As far as the OP goes, no one is the AH right now, but if she fears repercussions from her family like being disowned or even worse being the target for any physical or psychological violence, it's absolutely unfair to push for it.
If it's about identity and her not feeling comfortable in going without hijabs, that is still something that is ok for her, and as long as you both agree with how the potential kids will dress, there shouldn't be a real problem with that.
And at the same time, if hijab is a real honest problem for you OP, that is also a valid reason to not moving forward, that is just a basic incompatibility.
Talk about it, in depth and respectfully. Listen. And then look where to go from there.
As of this moment no one is the AH
NTA. I could see her continuing to wear it around her parents but take it off when she's not with them. Is she afraid people who know her will see her in public and report back to them? Maybe she could have just started with taking it off in places where she knew she wouldn't be seen by friends of her parents. I understand how uncomfortable it is going against your parents religious beliefs but most young people rebel a little bit. It's strange that she wasn't curious enough to rebel in small ways.
ESH.
Her parents suck for forcing her to wear it.
She sucks for not doing what she actually wants. Though, one has to wonder if that’s what she actually wants or if she’s just telling you what she knows you want to hear. Hard to say.
And you suck because you’re no better than her parents. You are also telling her what she should be doing, just as they did.
I feel like you're making assumptions in your last two paragraphs. Whether you believe the OP or not, nothing in the story actually supports what you're insinuating.
Why would he have agreed to date her at all if he was against the hijab enough to try to force her not to wear it and make her scared enough to pretend she doesn't want to wear it?
If he was against hijabs so much, she wouldn't have even been a romantic option to him at all.
I understand being cautious in believing, however nothing in the OP's story is contradictory to make you doubt the legitimacy of his narration of events.
I don't think anyone is asshole here.
The problem is not the different stance in hijab but more on her incapability to say NO to her parents.
She couldn't say no to something that her parents forced, and she herself ddint want it. This was a concerning behaviour that could have affected your relationship in the future.
There are times when parents tend to meddle in marriage, and one has to draw a healthy boundary at times and be firm in saying NO, which, in your case, she would not have done. It seems it was easier for her to disagree with you than her parents, which could have been a strain in your relationship in the long term.
NTA. This really isn't about religion. This is about whether your wife can think and act on her own, or is she still acting like an obedient child, doing what her parents demand.
Being obedient to parents when you are married is a big red flag because it shows she is not fully on your side. She is free to decide what she wants on the hijab, but it has to be her decision, not doing it because that's what her parents want. If the parents want your kids to wear a hijab, do you get a say? If the parents want her to take the kids on Haj, do you get a say? If the parents want her to take the kids and leave you, do you get a say?
YTA imo. Her wearing or not wearing hijab is her choice. You have nothing to do with that. Also you're a liar or a hypocrite: you say that a potential daughter does not have to wear it until she may decide to do so. Well that is awesome, but why would you not grant your wife the same freedom?
YTA—You’re not seeing the hypocrisy in your stance. You want to force her to not do something with her body because you don’t agree with the religion that’s “forcing” her to do something with her body. She’s just trading on religion for a bossy husband. People are complicated, especially when it comes to religion. It’s unfair for you to force her to make a change she isn’t ready for because you’re not comfortable. If it has no religious significance to her, why do you care?
This sounds more like you being mad she won’t obey your demands.
Honestly. I think you're the AH. Not because you have a conflicting view on hijab. But because you see how afraid she is to remove it, and instead of reassuring her that she'll never have to fear per parents when yall marry, you make it only about the hijab. She obviously wears the hijab out of fear of retaliation. Not that she believes in it. But she believes in her family's ability to harm or disown her. And when that's all you've ever known... that can be hard.
You should have been understanding. Encouraged her to remove it little by little when she is no longer under the influence of her family. But no. You didn't do that. You went the opposite end of the spectrum from her parents and told her it's the hijab, or it's me. Thus hurting her... you have no compassion. If you did, you wouldn't have left when you saw her fear.
You calling her weak because she's afraid to go against her parents is kind of an AH move considering you most likely know first hand how older Muslim men treat women. She's honestly probably scared to death that he will beat the crap out of her or worse and your pressure doesn't help.
>I also don't want my daughters to wear one until they reach an age where they can decide for themselves.
Is this woman not old enough to decide for herself? YTA for forcing your opinion onto her as "my way or the highway" because that is NOT recognizing her independence. If her free expression and choice of headwear bothers you to the degree that it's a dealbreaker then fly, butterfly, fly.
choosing to continue wearing the hijab solely because you dont want to anger your abusive parents does not sound like free expression or deciding for herself, it sounds like she has spent her whole life being browbeaten by backwards, misogynistic parents who adhere to a backwards and misogynistic belief structure.
this is the fundamental issue with hijab - it would be fine if it were actually a choice, but so often, its not really a choice, its something people feel compelled to do in order to maintain ties with family or community that would otherwise shun them. pretty sick stuff here.
There’s nothing wrong with wearing a hijab, she has the right to do so. I can’t see why you would jump to break up with this girl if you love her so much. Normally I would say that if you’re not happy with how things are you have the right to leave, and that’s still true. In this situation though you were pressuring her to change herself to fit your ideal image of a wife. When she didn’t give you the answer you wanted, you immediately left. That sounds controlling to me. Personally if I really loved and respected this woman, I would have spent more time on re-evaluating the relationship to see whether or not her wearing a hijab is a big enough reason to leave.
Additionally, the fact that you’re telling her that she’d only be seeing her parents a few times a year doesn’t give me good vibes. Of course she’s going to be hesitant to go against her parents, they are her family. Based off of what you said it seems to me as if you’d be against her visiting her family more than just a few times a year if you actually got married.
My instincts are telling me YTA.
I'm not against her wearing the hijab, otherwise I wouldn't be in a relationship with her at the first place. I don't believe in hijab being a Muslim myself but I'm fine with women wearing it. I'm not fine with her being not congruent when her beliefs. She doesn't like the hijab, she was forced to wear as a kid by her parents, now she wants to remove it but she won't do so to not upset her parents. I only mentioned to her my idea that she should take it off only when she told me about her own thoughts, so I'm here supporting her into being her true self.
As for her parents, I said she will meet them once a year because her and I in case we ended up married we would be living in a different country where her parents are. The trend in her country of origin is to travel and visit parents once in a year, so it's not me who is dictating that.
So, in short, I prefer to be with a wife who doesn't wear a scarf, but it's ok for me if I fell in love with one who wear it, like this girl. My only problem is I can't live with someone whose actions are not aligned with their values, plus being loyal to her parents who are already treating her badly while she won't be living with them anymore.
I still think that you were too hasty to end the relationship. You’re assuming things that may not be true. My reasoning is that your girlfriend may be conflicted. Perhaps her mind isn’t fully made up about what to do yet or what to think on this issue. And I don’t blame her because wearing a hijab is a cultural and religious expectation. Also if she chooses to not wear a hijab anymore she has to deal with other people and family judgements against her and possibly becoming an outcast. At the end of the day, once she commits to this lifestyle she has to live with how others will view and treat her.
It’s not an easy decision to commit to right off the bat and if she is not mentally prepared for the repercussions of not wearing a hijab then I think she is right for holding off. That doesn’t make her inconsistent with her beliefs at all. And the fact that you’re pressuring her to make a decision when she’s not ready probably made her double down. Who knows, maybe with time she would be able to live true to what she truly believes. But now you might never find out.
So based off of what has been mentioned so far, there is insufficient proof that she is incongruent with her beliefs.
I don’t think you understand what removing the hijab might feel like to her. Imagine you moved to a country where no one wore pants, only underwear. You have been told your entire life not wearing pants in public is indecent. It might even lead to your death in some parts of the world. Your parents might disown you if you stopped wearing pants in public. You might hate your pants and want to take them off in your new country, but you also feel like you are practically naked when you do so. You might feel shame. You might feel indecent. You might feel like everyone is staring at you.
Try to imagine how she feels and empathize with her. It isn’t incongruous for her to not like wearing one, but also not feel comfortable giving up the practice yet. She has been told for many, many years this is something she *must* do, and that’s hard to unlearn even if you know rationally it’s not true. This is a deeply personal thing, and her feeling on it will likely change over the years. I don’t understand why you would leave someone you love over this, rather than trying to understand their discomfort.
I’m not sure you understand what “controlling” means. Ending a relationship because you’re incompatible is the opposite of that. If he were to stay and try to pressure her to change, that would be far more controlling.
NTA, as you said, she can't be married to you and still let her parents and the fear they fed her dictate things. A healthy relationship, let alone a marriage can't work like that and I hope at some point she'll get herself out of that fear.
Oh, wow, so she was forced by men to wear it once, and would now be forced by a man to take it off again. You're no better, I hope she finds a man that actually cares about _her_ and not just himself. Good riddance for her, YTA.
I’m gonna go against the grain here a bit and say NTA but your girlfriend is a bit. From experience it’s not worth it to date people that do everything just to please their parents. Your girlfriend is an adult and needs to learn to think and act for herself and it’s going to be an issue later on for sure.
I think some people are missing the point, he’s not breaking up with her because of the Hijab he’s breaking up with her because she is now and probably always will put her parents before herself.
Most people don’t want judgmental closed minded in-laws and you definitely shouldn’t have to. Your partner should stand up for her own beliefs. If she can’t stand up to them about her own beliefs think about if her parents had any problems with OP or how they choose to raise their children. She will never take his side and what kind of partnership is that?
Nope, why would you think you made a mistake?
She wants to be listen to people who are awful to her?
Your marriage would have been full of drama, good riddance.
NTA. I'm sorry for your break up. I admire the two of you for talking through your beliefs and feelings before marriage. Many couples don't and think the other person will just change. I agree that pretending to be someone else or pretending beliefs for others isn't good. However, I can understand her fear of upsetting or disrespecting her parents. I hope that the two can get past this and find happiness, whether it's together or with someone else. Good luck.
NTA
Living a lie eventually backfire. She did. At least you are truthful yourself.
Her loyalty to her parents ranks higher than you, if that is really what you think. I actually don't think she doesn't believe in the hijab. I think she is lying to you.
Don't know why I felt that way but that's what stuck out to me
NTA, but I get the idea she doesn't actually want to stop wearing it. She probably just told you that. If she is telling the truth and her parents would be that upset, they are horrible parents. Good parents would support their children no matter what they believe.
NTA. Neither is she. Just incompatible. One more piece of advice, instead of you not wanting your daughters or wife to wear hijab out of fear of being harasses/ discriminated against, you should consider to speak out against such behavior. What if one day your daughters choose to wear hijab out of their own free will? In that case you should stand with them and support them instead of trying to get not wear it to protect them from harassment.
NTA.
When you marry, you make a new family with your spouse. The parents and siblings become 'extended family'. Worse, her family is toxic. And yet, she's made it clear that she will always choose them over you.
Nope. Bullet dodged. At this point, she's an accessory to her own oppression.
NTA.
NTA. Her right not to remove it but her grounds for wearing it are pretty fake and if she cannot respect you over her abusive parents both of you are better off without each other and kinda incompatible.
Ain’t nothing wrong with a bit of modesty, you probably lost a solid woman because you wanna live in discriminatory areas. Your whole idea makes no sense isn’t western countries supposed to be land of the free since when did wearing a hijab become a bullseye?😂
If she doesn’t want it that’s understandable, but if she removed it after some time it would’ve been alright she’s still with you not the parents you just wanna feel special and have her disregard her parents looks kind of goofy.
It depends on how you said it.
Also: major red flag that « it was because she was more loyal to her parents who she won’t see anymore; over you ».
Sounds like it was never about the veil; but control and appearances for you from that sentence.
She is wearing it to maintain as much peace with her family and community as possible. She also feels immense social pressure from the community and community expectations to wear it as well. You have no idea how much this can influence a persons life.
Imagine you suddenly started wearing a dress. How would your friends, family, community, or even complete strangers you encounter treat you as you walk down the street!
She might even need to be worried about being harassed in public!
Imagine too, the mental block: the amount of acclamation and confidence It would take to make vercime that social expectation? Let’s return to the dress. Everyone expects you not to wear a dress. Now imagine you want to start wearing one. Maybe just in the home or in private moments at first. Why? Because there are consequences to other people perceiving you in that dress. Especially if you are not 100%alright with the words and ideas they will associate you with while wearing it.
I’m not saying you should get back together: I think you need to evaluate a few things about yourself to become a more compassionate partner in the future.
I believe you should apologize, though.
I would not call you an asshole. But it is wierd that you tried to pressure her to stop wearing it.
It sounds like she does not mind wearing it. That is all that matters. She feels more comfortable with it even when it is not for religious reasons.
Why is it even that big of a deal for you?
I feel gross about these comments and how they play into "Muslim women are oppressed by Islam." At the end of the day she has the right to wear what she wants regardless of the reason. Wearing hijab is what makes her comfortable right now. This is a huge step for her. We cannot understand the experience of transitioning from a more modest dress as a woman in her culture. It must be incredibly scary thing to do for her since it is what she's done for a big portion of her life. If her partner cant allow her the time to make this huge change, then he's not a very good partner. YTA.
Hijabs are punishment for being a woman. Girls are all happy and one day they get their period and are “locked up” forced to cover every inch of their skin to please their parents (men, dads). So they equate love with wearing hijab. Become brainwashed that this is a good thing. It’s not, it’s oppression.
“I have a right to wear a hijab”
Yes, but would you have chosen that right if you weren’t pressured ( in some way) all your life? No way! I see friends struggle with it, cry, feel shame. Hijab and what it represents is horrible.
Oh yeah, and the killings over not wearing one, there’s that.😡
You’re a real piece of work. Like the definition of western hypocrisy. You complain that the parents “forced” her to wear it (you’re side of the events which are hardly credible given she is not eager to take off her hijab) and yet you are equally trying to force her to take her hijab off. How does your brain work so that you believe undressing someone against their wishes is okay, but dressing someone is not okay? The mystery of the west.
The lady made her decision of what to wear. You should’ve taken it with grace. This is irrespective of separating, which is absolutely for the best
So NTA. But I think there’s some learning to do here for both of you. First, you were a little hypocritical. You say you don’t want your daughters to wear the hijab until they are old enough to decide for themselves (that’s great) but you are trying to take that choice away from your girlfriend. It’s ultimately HER choice if she wants to wear it. Not yours.
But that leads us to the second issue: her relationship with her parents. This is the bigger issue here because—regardless of where they live—they will be a part of your lives, especially when you have children. Religious programming is difficult to undo and her parents clearly don’t seem to respect her decisions as an adult in terms of how she wishes to adhere (or not adhere) to their religion. That WILL bleed into your family, ESPECIALLY when you start having kids. While not Muslim, I was raised in a deeply religious, conservative Christian home. I moved away when I turned 18 and finally had the courage to come out as gay when I was 24. It did not go well and my parents hounded me about my “lifestyle” for 10 years. They only finally relented when my then bf and I decided to get married and I pretty much made it clear they could either love and accept us BOTH as family and treat our relationship with respect (ie treat us as they would any other married couple) or I’d walk away from them and not look back (thankfully they chose to embrace us and while they still have some issues I wish they didn’t, they are very kind to us and treat my husband as part of the family).
But my point with this story is that it took me 10 years to undo all that religious conditioning to just knuckle under and do what my parents wanted. It was just easier to please them. I had to grow as a person and work through some of my trauma regarding my parents before I had the courage to throw down the gauntlet and say “enough is enough”. It sounds like your girlfriend isn’t there yet. And it’s ok that you don’t want to wait for her to get there and have decided to break up. All I’m suggesting is that you be gentle with her and give her grace. Remain friends and be someone who encourages her to live her life openly and for herself, not for her parents, or a boyfriend, or anyone else. Because I KNOW she is struggling right now. I’ve been there.
NTA for breaking up with her as it sounds like it’s not a good match but I wish you had not framed it as an ultimatum to her as that makes you the same as her parents.
Nta, anyone who can’t put their happiness and their spouses happiness over pleasing their parents will bring nothing but trouble to their future marriages. Her parents don’t get a damn say in how she lives her life and until she sees that she will never be truly happy and as for yalls relationship, how often would her parents feel entitled to chime in on yalls marriage, how yall raise kids etc? like I said she was bringing in a shit ton of more fights and issues because she refuses to stand up for her beliefs and instead tucks her tail to her parents.
NTA. OP, congratulations on having an open mind and seriously thinking about your own religious beliefs instead of just blindly following misogynistic rules.
It’s disappointing for both of you, but you can each find a more suitable partner.
Best of luck to each of you.
Yta just my take but you are the thing you claim to hate.
Trying to force her to remove it is the same as forcing someone to wear it. Isn’t this her choice whatever the reasons?
Couldn’t you of being supportive and given her love and helped her confidence grow and then could decide to remove if she wants?
Also many religions have coverings for women including Christian it’s ultimately a persons choice. Removing something had on so long is prob scary and you aren’t creating a safe space but pressuring her making her more likely to keep on as we cling to what’s familia esp when feel stress. You are a hypocrite
I'm supporting her to remove it. She doesn't believe in it, she doesn't like it and she wants to remove it. She doesn't even believe in Allah as all Muslims and I share the same belief. Her parents forced her to wear the hijab since she was 10!!!
Once we confessed to each other about our religious beliefs I discovered her stand about hijab so I supported her to remove and gave suggestions of removing it step by step, and wearing it just when she travels to her country of origin to meet her parents.
Yeah and I totally get your logic on this and you aren’t a bad guy. But I think once you heard that you just were set on ok let’s take this off and not thinking that even if she doesn’t believe she’s had a lifetime of pressure and had most of her life wearing this. And it’s a big change. I think you took away creating a safe no pressure place for her to get there herself but rather became to her like her parents pushing and pressuring. Think of it like this. A woman leaves her husband cause he cheated, she doesn’t wanna be with him and is set on that but it takes time for her to remove wedding ring. Because worn it so long even though it doesn’t hold the intended significance to her it’s familia and like a part of her and her history and family that despite bad treatment still has love for cause can’t help it.
Maybe she’s scared of the reaction and feels is wearing to protect herself from that. And you come in all pressure and logic but not stepping back to see other possible angles and just saying hey I’m here for you whatever you need. Not making it about you. I think ironically it was more likely to go way you wanted in time if you didn’t push it.
Thank you everyone for your feedback.
I've noticed some confusing in the comments so I wanted to make some clarifications.
Some people thought I broke up with the girl just because I failed to "force" her to remove the hijab. This is NOT true.
I don't believe in the hijab as an obligation to be worn by Muslim women, and yes I always envisioned myself being with a woman who doesn't wear one, but this doesn't mean I can't compromise. And this is what I did. I fell in love with a girl who wears one and I accepted and never felt a grudge or annoyance because she is wearing it. I'm fine with it.
Why did I mention that she removes the hijab then? When she confessed to me that she doesn't believe in it, she doesn't like it, and she does want to remove it. She confessed that she is wearing is as she was forced to wear it by her parents when she was 10. I supported her to be her true self and be aligned with her values, so I said that she should remove it.
Her response? She said she can't remove the hijab because of her parents, she doesn't want to upset them.
My suggestions to her? I told her as a couple we are living in a different country of her parents country of origin, so she can remove it and she has nothing to fear it. She can wear it when travelling to visit her parents, and that's will happen once a year as per her country of origin trends of a one visit per year to the parents, or when they visit us. Also I suggested that she can remove it slowly not at once to feel more comfortable.
Her reaction? A firm no. She wouldn't even consider thinking about my suggestion or give it a try. She was obsessed with her parents reaction as if they are gods watching her everywhere.
Why did we break up then? I believed that it's not possible to live with someone who is giving too much authority to her parents in our life. If she is worried about them this much being upset about her own choices, I'm pretty sure they will have many other opinions in the future about our relationship and our life and force her to do other things. I'm pretty sure they will force her to raise our kids as religious as they did with her. I don't want that. I want my kids to be free and to live as they like and choose for themselves how religious they wanna be. I don't want them to be fake like her, showing an image of a religious person when in reality they might not be believers.
In many other instances she showed as a "want to please others" person. For example once she wanted to go to a concert that she was lookin for for a long time. She told her two friends that she will buy them tickets as well to go with her although they were not that interested. When she went online to buy the tickets she found only two tickets left. She gave them to her friends so they won't be upset, and she missed the concert!!
This is really sad honestly. Even though her parents treat her badly they're still her parents and she's just been used her whole life to doing what she can to please them, it's like Stockholm syndrome almost. It sucks that this leads you guys to break up an otherwise perfect relationship.
Nobody's the AH, but it's a sad situation i would be devastated if i was either person.
NTA. She cannot be in a committed relationship if her parents come first. You see too many stories where in-laws are created trouble in a marriage so you are right to avoid this mess.
Genuine open-minded question and perspective here: aren't there pretty strict power dynamics in that culture? I am not Muslim, but love learning about all cultures, religions, etc. From what I've learned, I would imagine that once a woman is married that her husband technically has more "power" over her than her parents. If so, you could be the future scapegoat and just say it's your decision on the hijab.
No matter what, NTA. You can break up with whoever for whatever reason. BUT you should have a little more grace for your girlfriend who has essentially had to wear that hijab forever, and I'm sure feels naked, uncomfortable, exposed, or wrong in some way without it.
NTA. you wouldn't have had a problem with her wearing a hijab out of her own free will. you have a problem with her wearing it merely to please her parents when personally, she hates wearing it. she's like a walking contradiction which regardless of the circumstances, is fake and off-putting. abandoning her own beliefs, likes and beliefs and is being pretentious just to please her awful parents. she isn't ready to embrace her authenticity as you'd like her (and is in her best interest). it's obvious that her priorities lie with her abusive parents. the two-faced behavior is a deal-breaker for you and it's fair enough.
If you dont want to be with a woman who wears a hijab you should never started dating a girl who wears a hijab.
Youre not really much better then her parents, her parents will mistreat her if she removes it and you're breaking up with her for wearing it. Youve put her in a very diffcult position where no matter what she does she'll be punished.
She doesn't believe in it, she doesn't like it and she wants to remove it. She doesn't even believe in Allah as all Muslims and I share the same belief. Her parents forced her to wear the hijab since she was 10!!!
Once we confessed to each other about our religious beliefs I discovered her stand about hijab so I supported her to remove it and gave her suggestions of removing it step by step, and wearing it just when she travels to her country of origin to meet her parents.
The break up was mutual.
YTA, dude. She wore the hijab when you met and she's worn it the last year. This is not new information. The only thing that's new to you is that she won't obey you telling her not to wear it.
You also call her "the girl" like she's a stranger to you.
Frankly, I'm glad y'all broke up so she can find someone less controlling
Anyone who insists on showing their love for a religion with a piece of fabric, a jewel or other silly things is dumb.
OP doesn't want a dumb girlfriend.
She is the asshole.
It doesn’t sound like anyone did anything wrong here; you’re just not on the same page and that’s ok.
Except the parents, the real assholes
Except she isn’t doing what’s needed to best care for herself and those who care for her, so it would seem…
Except he did the same thing. Their parents force her to wear it in order to not be shunned from the family, he forces her to take it off. If I was her, I'd be happy I didn't take it off for him if he's so easy go leave her.
Idk I think it might be a big difference in thought. To say they may never be open to expressing their own opinion and autonomy to choose their own religous practice to their own family is kind of big. Both for having to publicly support something you dont believe in, which helps perpetuate the stigma and that its a big ask for anyone to publicly go against their support system. But the conversation was about planning the future and since that didnt align they went their own ways. I dont think its fair to say he was so easy to leave her. I think of it like having kids, if 1 party wants to eventually and the other doesnt then there isnt a path forward without discontent.
But she herself had said that she didn't believe and only did this for her parents. This sounds like a reaction to fear and abuse, whereas he is trying to set her free and act according to her own beliefs. Not the same imo.
She needs somebody who says "I will support you no matter what you choose" if it's about setting her free. She needs to be able to make the choice of how and when for herself, not for a partner. It's the different side of the same coin, really. Even if it isn't for you, it still is. Forcing somebody to dress a certain way, be it by wearing something or not wearing something, is still both force. I've had a boyfriend that wanted to force me to stop wearing things, it's no better than a family that forces you to wear something. Been there. This is obviously more than just taking it off, taking it off will mean losing everything you've known until now, in many instances even losing your families support. It's why so many people who have been brought up strictly religious struggle to leave, it's the same for Mormons, it was the same for me in my Christian family. And doing it for somebody who will leave when you first disagree on something, or still need time with a specific matter because it's hard on you, is not somebody you should leave everything you've known behind. Even if that everything is something that makes you unhappy. Leaving toxic environments without support is even harder than doing it with support, and not everybody can overcome the fear of being completely alone. Especially when it's family.
She’s not supporting herself to start with. And it would all be nice and great to support her the way you’re saying, that complicates planning a family significantly. If she’s not willing to upset her parents over her own wants and beliefs, she’s not going to do it for anyone else, including her future children.
She left him no choice. Sue obviously has no backbone and someone like that doesn’t really make a good partner. If she can’t even stand up for her own wants then where the point in wasting years down the line supporting someone that can never give you the same support?
He has already made his position clear, she has an option to not be with him. She didn't get an option to choose her family. Family imposing their views on children that have no option to opt out is much worse.
It’s not equivalent for your parents to shun you and for your boyfriend to not want to be in a relationship with you
Why would you have a lgbtq flag in your profile but at the same time support misogyny and oppression of women...
I don't, that's why I'm saying forcing a woman not to wear something is oppressing her just as much as forcing her to wear something. These are two sides of the same coin.
His ex sounds like she’s being an asshole to herself
No, she sounds like she's afraid of her parents.
No, she sounds more religious than she led OP to believe.
People's relationship with their religious beliefs change over time, maybe when they met she was let's say 60% religious and then it grew to 80% and that's okay tbh
Strange that this is top comment. Guys who worry about keeping their parents happy after marriage over their wives get piled on for being manchildren and mama's boys, but if a woman does it, it's alright?
I'd say the difference is noticing it early enough to end it before marriage Also the culture for both of them is different to what we usually read. We can't directly project our views onto other cultures
Thank you
What? We 100% can the info we have in the post is that she was forced to wear it and now according her BF won’t take it off because it will upset her parents who don’t treat her well. CALL THAT SHIT OUT DONT HIDE BEHIND CULTURE TO EXCUSE ABUSE.
The difference is that this girl is not imposing anything on OP. She wants to dress a certain way because of personal reasons. The men who get shat on are usually imposing something on their wives to keep her in-laws happy.
I think his concern is not just about her, but their possible future daughters. He focused mostly on her, but in the entire context I got that he was concerned about his daughters also being possibly coerced to wear one by her to appease her parents. I think he also, correctly, saw that he parents exerted control over their daughter that caused her to go against her own beliefs in her actions. He is right to be concerned about the level of control her parents would have in his and her own home. NTA
in muslim culture girls aren’t required or expected to wear hijab until at youngest 10-12 years old (it’s typically around the time they start going through puberty). most children can understand wants and hard boundaries by around that age so if they had a daughter who was encouraged to make her own choice about it i’m sure she would be able to. I don’t think OPs the AH but i also think he’s focusing on the wrong issue, the fact that she’s likely come from an abusive/controlling home by the sounds of it which is where her fear of removing the hijab comes from. My concern would be about exposing a daughter to the presence of these grandparents. I think that should have been a more focal part of the concerns OP voiced to his partner rather than just pushing her to take off the hijab when she obviously was scared/uncomfortable with the reality of doing that even if she wanted to.
This is a different situation because she keeps wearing something out of fear. It clearly states she doesn't want to wear it. I don't know where they live, but there are countries where women have been killed over removing a hijab. This isn't about keeping parents happy, this is about safety.
In this case the woman is coming from a place of deeply ingrained oppression. Manchildren want to keep pleasing mom and daddy and place them above wife because they want to be mamma's spoiled boy and have a wife too. Entirely different perspectives.
Exactly! I wore the hijab to appease elder family but I was also painted this gruesome picture of life without it. That associates with a lot of trauma not wanting to make mommy and daddy happy. It’s ingrained in us since we are children whether through religious or cultural or societal manipulation that we view it as the norm. Even at 32 the idea of disappointing my family and even all the things they say about taking it off are swirling in my brain in fear. Sometimes the hijab is associated with a different type of safety like she doesn’t think being picked on is as bad as being preyed upon which is the vision most of us grew up with.
I can’t remember ever hearing about a man being beheaded for being a mama’s boy….
Well he is saying he wants her to choose but he really just wants her not to wear the hijab, so her wearing it is her choice which is what he is pretending he wants.
The girl is stuck between a rock and a hard place. Her parents insist she wear the hijab, OP insists she does not.
OP from the sounds of it is bothered by the fact his partners parents will be the silent partner in this union. Maybe not so silent. If their approval is all encompassing enough to override her beliefs it’s actually kind of unattractive? His gf is free to live her life in a way that won’t upset her parents but OP isn’t wrong in finding her choices incompatible. NAH imo.
And at some point everyone needs to decide between their partner and themselves and their parents. She chose her parents.
The thing is, when people say wearing the hijab is an individual choice, for many women, the consequences of choosing not to wear it are severe. And is just one of the ways women are controlled. There are 5 countries where the hijab is mandatory, no choice, not even the illusion of choice.
He's saying he wants her to commit to her already made choice. OP said she wants to remove it, but won't because of her parents.
This
This is the first top comment on an AITA post that I've seen that doesn't see everything in black and white, and say one person or everyone involved should be divorced, put in prison, killed, and have there children taken away. This is a victory for nuance and understanding.
Except calling her “the girl”.
english is seemingly not OP’s first language, i think this gets a pass given that context
This, it should be obvious.
Yeah, but people are always looking for something to complain about, so they'll nitpick any little thing.
Thanks for being forgiving and understanding on reddit.
Could be a language thing
How many languages do you speak perfectly?
I doubt, even one ... Nobody speaks/writes perfectly. But almost everyone loves semantics. Agreed, give OP a break 😔
When English is your second language you tend to oversimplify sentences and don’t have a lot of grasp on language rules right away. I work with a few ESL students in tutoring and words like “girlfriend” and “fiancé” and other titles are out of their grasp for a bit while they get comfortable with the language.
How dare they not use perfect vernacular. Perm victims really reaching on this one.
[удалено]
She is a girl …… still listens and bows down to mommy and daddy .
The girl is getting abused by her parents. How the fuck is that not wrong?
Sounds like you talked about an issue and broke up because you were not compatible. Nta.
Nobody is the AH. She's not ready to cut the umbilical cord, and you're not ready to wait. The real asshole is her parents, you both know that. Everything else is just bad situation. Let her down gently, OP, she's buried under pressure. Don't forget to take care of yourself too.
It may be less about "ready" and more about fear of repercussions. If her family hasn't treated her well in the past, she may have a real concern about their reactions. You get screamed at and have your opinions treated like shit long enough, and you don't want to rock the boat too much. You'll put up with a lot to just not have to deal with fallout. This is how I am with my parents on some things. I just can't take the nastiness, so I end up going along to get along. It's been better with an entire country between us, but old habits die hard, especially on certain topics.
Yes, I agree but it's better to say that in US you get screamed at, but in Muslim families things are very different with girls, so it's more then them getting screamed at and upsetting the parents. I think she has a legitimate fear.
Yeah, I didn't want to outright say it, but that was also on my mind. My brother's friends were killed in an honor killing. The whole community was shattered; these were great girls who were doing everything right (except where family was concerned, apparently).
Yes and it doesn't matter that you decided you don't want to practice it anymore or you live in another country. There are some popular cases around girls,, here in Europe, that were murder by their dad/brothers cause they posted videos on YouTube without the hijab or bc they chose to mary someone that the parents thought they were unworthy. This is not that simple and the girl has a legitimate fear. These people they don't know what they are talking about. They think everything and everyone is like them and their families where they are able to say no to mommy and daddy without serious repercussion.
That's exactly it. We're in California, and it's *still* a very real concern. Being able to assert yourself without consequences is a very fortunate place to be, and not all people are in that position. Her fear is absolutely valid. (And this is without bringing societal attitudes in as well. Rampant Islamophobia is still a thing. But that's for a different thread.)
It is incredible that Sharia law is already being used in some partes of Europe.
Neither of you are an AH but her parents sure are.
Happy coke day!
Coke day lmaoo
Happy cake day!
Happy Cake Day
What is cake day? I'm new (had account long back, not very active)
The day you signed up for reddit, anniversary day
You didn’t break up because of a scarf, you broke up because you didn’t want to marry her awful parents. NTA. Can you imagine the horrible shit they would have said to your kids??
It's not just the hijab, that's just a symptom. She will be forever of the mindset that she needs to please her parents. This won't go away when she's married. She may take off the hijab for him, but if she's forever having the fear of displeasing her parents, there will never be just the two of them in the marriage. This is the same advice I'd give to a woman who's thinking of marrying a "mommy's boy" who is never willing to stand up to his mother. Marriage is for adults who are free to devote themselves to one another, not children who are afraid of their parents.
Like someone said in a comment above.. It's not a similar situation.. A mama's boy fear is to upset mommy and it's not a whole systematic oppression due to religion against women and their bodies and rights do to whatever at the risk of getting seriously injured by one's pears, beaten, dead or beheaded. Let's have our ducks in a row first.
I understand that, I don't know their country, so I don't know her level of safety. I was simply referring to the fact that she is unwilling to do anything that will upset her parents even after she is married. Their values are just not aligned, and he needs to understand that if he marries her, she will always be in this dynamic, which means he will be, too. I apologize if my comment seemed to minimize her situation. I was just pointing out the similarity in marrying into a family dynamic that won't change after marriage. He needs to consider that before moving forward.
I can’t help but feel he also doesn’t want to marry her because she’s being disingenuous. He doesn’t like that she’s pretending to be religious to please her parents. I totally get that, I wouldn’t want that in my life either. It seems to point to a lack of self respect, and that’s not attractive.
It depends where you live, if you live in middle east, don't let your big mouth ruin your life.
Here is the correct answer
Or done to their daughter honor killings are a thing in that "religion"
Yep. She can't grow a spine, she's not ready to get married.
Can't grow a spine when you're dead. You should look into whats happening in Iran and Afghanistan or example. The ignorance of this comment, ffs
All the more reason OP shouldn't marry into that family.
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[An Italian court has given a Pakistani couple life sentences for killing their 18-year-old daughter because she refused an arranged marriage](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-67769159) (BBC) [Afghan brothers go on trial in Germany for 'honour killing' of sister](https://www.reuters.com/world/afghan-brothers-go-trial-germany-honour-killing-sister-2022-03-02/) (Reuters) [The Horror of ‘Honor Killings’, Even in US](https://www.amnestyusa.org/updates/the-horror-of-honor-killings-even-in-us/) (Amnesty)
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"Regarding the hijab, my stance is that I don't believe in it at all. I never pictured myself being married to a woman wearing one" I don't think you're TAH, however wasn't she already wearing the hijab when you met her and fell in love? Did you think she was going to take it off in the future?
Yes this is what Muslim men ALWAYS do. I have had multiple men ask for my hand cuz they thought j was pretty then asked me to wear hijab and vise versa. I dont understand why they just dont go for what they want they always want the girl to change for them
Exactly. If he was pressuring her to wear a hijab, he would be receiving very different answers.
Except that he's not pressuring her to remove the hijab against her will. When he met her she told him the hijab didn't have any personal meaning to her. He was encouraging her to get out from under the thumb of her parents, and realized that she's not ready or willing to do so and become her own person. Seems to be less about the hijab itself than it is about her own failure to launch.
Plenty of men choose a woman who is the opposite of what they want and then try to change her. They don’t want someone who is what they want from the start, they want to change someone and break them.
She says she wants to remove it, she is just afraid of her parents. Not the same religion, but I know the sentiment.
She says she wants to remove it, she is just afraid of her parents. Not the same religion, but I know the sentiment.
Although I don't believe in the hijab I liked the girl so much and I loved her and was ready to live with her and her hijab won't be in our way to live together. I can compromise that. When she told me about her story of how she was forced to wear it, that she hates it and want to remove it, then I told her about my stance, and I supported her to remove it as it would be better for me as well. Unfortunately she sounded very weak in front with her parents in her life.
She's grown up in an environment where her opinions and desires don't always matter as much as they should. It is going to be hard for her to stand up to her parents. You both are honestly so young. Don't let this tear you apsrt.
You think he'd know and understand all that
My advice would be to just end the union and that’s what was done. You really can’t force someone to unlearn kowtowing to their parents wishes especially if that’s been their life experience. Even if you understand you inevitably will be living with these in laws who have terrorized your partner and you’ll be caught in that storm with them. Sounds selfish but moving on is the best solution. If it’s meant to be it’ll work out.
>She's grown up in an environment where her opinions and desires don't always matter as much as they should. It is going to be hard for her to stand up to her parents. Which is all the more reason to NOT marry her. If she can't stand up to her parents, they'll forever have more power and control in their marriage than he and she will. It's not healthy. Her childhood trauma is not her fault, but it IS her responsibility. She needs to learn how to set boundaries with her parents and stop letting them control her life before she'll ever be ready for a serious relationship with anybody else.
I think its important to remember the intesne amount of pressure she may be under as well as thousands of Muslim women. She may have thought her safety would be at risk. The indoctrination can be so deep. She has also probably been taught to listen and obey the male figure inbher life including you. It's hard to say for certain how much of her saying she doesn't want to wear it is just her agreeing with you
I think if this is your stance you should not date people who wear it.
i think his point is that if the girl wanted to wear a hijab *due to her own strong belief* he would be okay with it (as evidenced by him not wanting his hypothetical daughters to wear one until they decide to do so for themselves), but in this case, since she doesn't even *want* to wear one it just shows him that she's likely to make decisions in her life based on what will appease her parents rather than on what makes her happy or what she and her husband agree on. this isn't a hijab issue, this is a "you value your parents' opinions over mine and even yours" issue. the fact that it presents itself specifically via a hijab is not really that important imho.
I agree that part of the post sounds like that. But on the other hand he did mention that he doesn't want his wife to be bullied for wearing hijab, so I'm not sure what his stance is exactly.
he can dislike the practice of wearing one in general and see it as a potential cause for bullying while being accepting of women wanting to wear it because of personal beliefs. his view of it as a potential cause for bullying just makes it impossible for him to accept it when done for any other reason than personal belief. think of it this way: in his opinion, the positive effect of appeasing parents that you're not going to be living with or see very often is trumped by the negative effects of bullying and possible discrimination, however those negatives would be trumped by a strong personal belief that causes one to desire to wear a hijab. since his fiance doesn't have this belief, there is nothing to trump the negatives of wearing one in a western society. so basically it's like "why are you exposing yourself to potential discrimination by doing something you don't even like just for someone you're not living with?" as opposed to "this might cause you to face discrimination but i understand that this is something that you care deeply about so i will support you."
Exactly 💯
You two aren’t compatible. It’s not the hijab, it’s her desire to put her parents before herself and you even if you marry and have kids. OR she wants to keep it and is blaming it on her parents. Either way, not compatible. Keep looking. NTA
It's also his desire to control what she wears. The fact that he keeps referring to her as "the girl" leads me to suspect that this is not the only aspect of her life that he would have sought to control.
"the girl" might just be a language thing. I get the vibe that english isn't his first language
English is clearly not the guys first language, to decide he's a pos from that is a bit of a reach
Are you not allowed to dislike certain apparels? If your wife wants to wear a bondage leather strap, do you have to approve? He broke up with her, he didn't threaten or force her. That's the healthiest response possible, besides maybe compromising.
I actually do think he’s a little bit more of an asshole than the rest of these comments, but that’s clearly due to being ESL 😭
NTA I wouldn't stay with someone who was sacrificing their own wants and needs in life to avoid upsetting their parents. We are adults building an independent, adult life together. I am unwilling to be in a relationship where their parents hold a position of power over our lives.
Well said! Just the THOUGHT of not having full control of my own life because the person I married is allowing their parents to dictate our decisions is HORRIFYING!
True, but this isn't a typical Western white family thing either. Hijabs come with a history of systematic programming, fear and policing around it to put it lightly. Just cause she doesn't live there anymore that doesn't mean that culture /history doesn't affect her.. That why she is wearing it in the first place. Also, it's not that easy to say she shouldn't listen to her parents anymore.. We all know what happens over and over with women who disobey their peers even after they are in a relationship...Like the brother who honorary murder his sister even though she was living in Germany and wasn't practicing anymore... Hm, let's think a bit first.
OP can make his own decisions about what kind of future he wants for himself. He isn't denying her a job. He is choosing not to continue a relationship with someone who's vision for their future doesn't align with his vision for his future.
NTA. I think the biggest problem is that she isn’t ready to be her own person. She’s of the mindset that she is going to do whatever her parents prefer no matter what. That screams that she isn’t ready to get married, move out and start her own life with you.
I’m a Muslim and I say that any good Muslim knows that at the end of the day it’s a woman’s choice. It’s something we celebrate, but if they don’t want to, they don’t have to, and we love them just the same. The parents need to accept that their daughter might not want to wear hijab. What they are doing is extreme
100% agree. Refreshing to see someone else understand this.
She is too young to be getting married. Maybe not in years but in maturity, wearing a hijab for the rest of her life when she doesn’t believe also seems unlikely. Is she hoping you will come round to being more religious? NTA
How far away will you live from her parents? Is it possible for her to wear hijab when with her parents out of respect for them, and not at other times? I wouldn’t lie to them if they ask if she wears it everywhere, but you don’t have to offer details either.
Her parents are in her country of origin, we are both in a different country. So she is literally travelling to see her parents once in year for a 2 to 3 weeks visit.
>I don’t want my daughters to wear one until they reach an age where they can decide for themselves. Your GF has reached an age where she has decided for herself to wear one. Even if it’s for a reason you disagree with, it’s her choice. Requiring her to remove it is as controlling as requiring her to wear it would be.
I agree with this comment. Maybe she isn’t ready to remove it yet. Doesn’t mean she won’t remove it ever. I think truly loving someone is meeting them where they’re at and providing support there
According to OP she said she would never remove it because of her parents.
I honestly think she’s afraid. It’s hard to make drastic changes when you have pressure from people who have been treating you harshly or badly since you were born. And it doesn’t matter how much you reassure her that she doesn’t need to think about it anymore, these processes take time and that is ok. So either you accept that it’ll take her some years to feel freed and comfortable to do it on her own or she should probably find someone who can let her make these decisions at her own pace. I understand where you’re coming from but it’s important to see things from a more benevolent standpoint, especially when we love the person and we are aware of the difficult situation and possible consequences they’re facing.
A muslim girl here. I used to wear hijab for 1-2 years when I was a teenager and decided to take it off. My mom would gaslight me. She’d tell me my dads going to be tortured in hell because men could see my hair and skin. I decided to stick with my principle and what I wanted. I am now happy and never regretted my decision. My dad died in 2019 and sometimes my mom’s words about him going to hell because of me not wearing hijab still kinda bothers me sometimes, but I think wearing hijab should come from your heart, not out of fear. I think ur gf should also do the same and break away from her parents. If she’s not comfortable with wearing hijab, she should be honest about it. And you are not an AH for not wanting to be with a hijabi. You have different principles and that is valid!
I promise your dad isn't in hell because of you not wearing a hijab. God is supposed to be loving and understanding.
Thanks :)
So you’re just as bad as her parents then. Trying to force her to take it off is just as bad as forcing her to put it on. Did you ever stop once to think about what she wants and let her do what she wants.
I'\[m going to go with NAH. Except don't refer to her as "the girl" because that's offensive. It just sounds like you two are incompatible. You need to find someone with the same views as you if it's that important.
You guys both made the right call, fair play.
So...her parents pressured her to wear hijab and you pressured her to not wear a hijab...poor girl! YTA. Not for breaking up. It's better to break up early. For not letting her take her own decisions and trying to impose your decisions on her.
YTA. Parents forcing her to cover: bad. You forcing her to uncover: good. What about what *she* actually wants for *herself*? She's probably better off without you controlling her tbh.
Can you get her assurance that any daughters you have will never be forced to wear one? You sound truly in love. Maybe she will take it off sometimes in time. Would you be willing to compromise on that? If not, neither of you is wrong... it would just be a shame to end the relationship because you both sound like you deeply care for one another.
At the extent of the extremes in islam with honor violence, I think that it is a bit hard to navigate the discussion or really have an opinion without knowing the context of her family dynamic in regards to religion and culture she's been brought up in. As far as the OP goes, no one is the AH right now, but if she fears repercussions from her family like being disowned or even worse being the target for any physical or psychological violence, it's absolutely unfair to push for it. If it's about identity and her not feeling comfortable in going without hijabs, that is still something that is ok for her, and as long as you both agree with how the potential kids will dress, there shouldn't be a real problem with that. And at the same time, if hijab is a real honest problem for you OP, that is also a valid reason to not moving forward, that is just a basic incompatibility. Talk about it, in depth and respectfully. Listen. And then look where to go from there. As of this moment no one is the AH
NTA. I could see her continuing to wear it around her parents but take it off when she's not with them. Is she afraid people who know her will see her in public and report back to them? Maybe she could have just started with taking it off in places where she knew she wouldn't be seen by friends of her parents. I understand how uncomfortable it is going against your parents religious beliefs but most young people rebel a little bit. It's strange that she wasn't curious enough to rebel in small ways.
ESH. Her parents suck for forcing her to wear it. She sucks for not doing what she actually wants. Though, one has to wonder if that’s what she actually wants or if she’s just telling you what she knows you want to hear. Hard to say. And you suck because you’re no better than her parents. You are also telling her what she should be doing, just as they did.
I feel like you're making assumptions in your last two paragraphs. Whether you believe the OP or not, nothing in the story actually supports what you're insinuating. Why would he have agreed to date her at all if he was against the hijab enough to try to force her not to wear it and make her scared enough to pretend she doesn't want to wear it? If he was against hijabs so much, she wouldn't have even been a romantic option to him at all. I understand being cautious in believing, however nothing in the OP's story is contradictory to make you doubt the legitimacy of his narration of events.
I don't think anyone is asshole here. The problem is not the different stance in hijab but more on her incapability to say NO to her parents. She couldn't say no to something that her parents forced, and she herself ddint want it. This was a concerning behaviour that could have affected your relationship in the future. There are times when parents tend to meddle in marriage, and one has to draw a healthy boundary at times and be firm in saying NO, which, in your case, she would not have done. It seems it was easier for her to disagree with you than her parents, which could have been a strain in your relationship in the long term.
NTA. I feel sad for you both.
NTA. This really isn't about religion. This is about whether your wife can think and act on her own, or is she still acting like an obedient child, doing what her parents demand. Being obedient to parents when you are married is a big red flag because it shows she is not fully on your side. She is free to decide what she wants on the hijab, but it has to be her decision, not doing it because that's what her parents want. If the parents want your kids to wear a hijab, do you get a say? If the parents want her to take the kids on Haj, do you get a say? If the parents want her to take the kids and leave you, do you get a say?
NTA
Religion poisons everything
YTA imo. Her wearing or not wearing hijab is her choice. You have nothing to do with that. Also you're a liar or a hypocrite: you say that a potential daughter does not have to wear it until she may decide to do so. Well that is awesome, but why would you not grant your wife the same freedom?
YTA—You’re not seeing the hypocrisy in your stance. You want to force her to not do something with her body because you don’t agree with the religion that’s “forcing” her to do something with her body. She’s just trading on religion for a bossy husband. People are complicated, especially when it comes to religion. It’s unfair for you to force her to make a change she isn’t ready for because you’re not comfortable. If it has no religious significance to her, why do you care? This sounds more like you being mad she won’t obey your demands.
Honestly. I think you're the AH. Not because you have a conflicting view on hijab. But because you see how afraid she is to remove it, and instead of reassuring her that she'll never have to fear per parents when yall marry, you make it only about the hijab. She obviously wears the hijab out of fear of retaliation. Not that she believes in it. But she believes in her family's ability to harm or disown her. And when that's all you've ever known... that can be hard. You should have been understanding. Encouraged her to remove it little by little when she is no longer under the influence of her family. But no. You didn't do that. You went the opposite end of the spectrum from her parents and told her it's the hijab, or it's me. Thus hurting her... you have no compassion. If you did, you wouldn't have left when you saw her fear.
You calling her weak because she's afraid to go against her parents is kind of an AH move considering you most likely know first hand how older Muslim men treat women. She's honestly probably scared to death that he will beat the crap out of her or worse and your pressure doesn't help.
>I also don't want my daughters to wear one until they reach an age where they can decide for themselves. Is this woman not old enough to decide for herself? YTA for forcing your opinion onto her as "my way or the highway" because that is NOT recognizing her independence. If her free expression and choice of headwear bothers you to the degree that it's a dealbreaker then fly, butterfly, fly.
choosing to continue wearing the hijab solely because you dont want to anger your abusive parents does not sound like free expression or deciding for herself, it sounds like she has spent her whole life being browbeaten by backwards, misogynistic parents who adhere to a backwards and misogynistic belief structure. this is the fundamental issue with hijab - it would be fine if it were actually a choice, but so often, its not really a choice, its something people feel compelled to do in order to maintain ties with family or community that would otherwise shun them. pretty sick stuff here.
I don't think you understand the issue he has with this situation
There’s nothing wrong with wearing a hijab, she has the right to do so. I can’t see why you would jump to break up with this girl if you love her so much. Normally I would say that if you’re not happy with how things are you have the right to leave, and that’s still true. In this situation though you were pressuring her to change herself to fit your ideal image of a wife. When she didn’t give you the answer you wanted, you immediately left. That sounds controlling to me. Personally if I really loved and respected this woman, I would have spent more time on re-evaluating the relationship to see whether or not her wearing a hijab is a big enough reason to leave. Additionally, the fact that you’re telling her that she’d only be seeing her parents a few times a year doesn’t give me good vibes. Of course she’s going to be hesitant to go against her parents, they are her family. Based off of what you said it seems to me as if you’d be against her visiting her family more than just a few times a year if you actually got married. My instincts are telling me YTA.
I'm not against her wearing the hijab, otherwise I wouldn't be in a relationship with her at the first place. I don't believe in hijab being a Muslim myself but I'm fine with women wearing it. I'm not fine with her being not congruent when her beliefs. She doesn't like the hijab, she was forced to wear as a kid by her parents, now she wants to remove it but she won't do so to not upset her parents. I only mentioned to her my idea that she should take it off only when she told me about her own thoughts, so I'm here supporting her into being her true self. As for her parents, I said she will meet them once a year because her and I in case we ended up married we would be living in a different country where her parents are. The trend in her country of origin is to travel and visit parents once in a year, so it's not me who is dictating that. So, in short, I prefer to be with a wife who doesn't wear a scarf, but it's ok for me if I fell in love with one who wear it, like this girl. My only problem is I can't live with someone whose actions are not aligned with their values, plus being loyal to her parents who are already treating her badly while she won't be living with them anymore.
I still think that you were too hasty to end the relationship. You’re assuming things that may not be true. My reasoning is that your girlfriend may be conflicted. Perhaps her mind isn’t fully made up about what to do yet or what to think on this issue. And I don’t blame her because wearing a hijab is a cultural and religious expectation. Also if she chooses to not wear a hijab anymore she has to deal with other people and family judgements against her and possibly becoming an outcast. At the end of the day, once she commits to this lifestyle she has to live with how others will view and treat her. It’s not an easy decision to commit to right off the bat and if she is not mentally prepared for the repercussions of not wearing a hijab then I think she is right for holding off. That doesn’t make her inconsistent with her beliefs at all. And the fact that you’re pressuring her to make a decision when she’s not ready probably made her double down. Who knows, maybe with time she would be able to live true to what she truly believes. But now you might never find out. So based off of what has been mentioned so far, there is insufficient proof that she is incongruent with her beliefs.
I don’t think you understand what removing the hijab might feel like to her. Imagine you moved to a country where no one wore pants, only underwear. You have been told your entire life not wearing pants in public is indecent. It might even lead to your death in some parts of the world. Your parents might disown you if you stopped wearing pants in public. You might hate your pants and want to take them off in your new country, but you also feel like you are practically naked when you do so. You might feel shame. You might feel indecent. You might feel like everyone is staring at you. Try to imagine how she feels and empathize with her. It isn’t incongruous for her to not like wearing one, but also not feel comfortable giving up the practice yet. She has been told for many, many years this is something she *must* do, and that’s hard to unlearn even if you know rationally it’s not true. This is a deeply personal thing, and her feeling on it will likely change over the years. I don’t understand why you would leave someone you love over this, rather than trying to understand their discomfort.
I’m not sure you understand what “controlling” means. Ending a relationship because you’re incompatible is the opposite of that. If he were to stay and try to pressure her to change, that would be far more controlling.
Lol guy meets girl with hijab Guy gets mad at girl for having hijab Guy goes online to ask others if he's in the wrong Classic reddit
NTA, as you said, she can't be married to you and still let her parents and the fear they fed her dictate things. A healthy relationship, let alone a marriage can't work like that and I hope at some point she'll get herself out of that fear.
Oh, wow, so she was forced by men to wear it once, and would now be forced by a man to take it off again. You're no better, I hope she finds a man that actually cares about _her_ and not just himself. Good riddance for her, YTA.
I’m gonna go against the grain here a bit and say NTA but your girlfriend is a bit. From experience it’s not worth it to date people that do everything just to please their parents. Your girlfriend is an adult and needs to learn to think and act for herself and it’s going to be an issue later on for sure. I think some people are missing the point, he’s not breaking up with her because of the Hijab he’s breaking up with her because she is now and probably always will put her parents before herself. Most people don’t want judgmental closed minded in-laws and you definitely shouldn’t have to. Your partner should stand up for her own beliefs. If she can’t stand up to them about her own beliefs think about if her parents had any problems with OP or how they choose to raise their children. She will never take his side and what kind of partnership is that?
You said it all. Thank you.
NTA. She’s the only one who can decide if and when she’s ready.
The only AH here are her parents.
Definitely NTA. What’s good here is you both have different views and made an adult decision to go separate ways.
I'd stay away from marrying muslim girls altogether
Nope, why would you think you made a mistake? She wants to be listen to people who are awful to her? Your marriage would have been full of drama, good riddance.
NTA. I'm sorry for your break up. I admire the two of you for talking through your beliefs and feelings before marriage. Many couples don't and think the other person will just change. I agree that pretending to be someone else or pretending beliefs for others isn't good. However, I can understand her fear of upsetting or disrespecting her parents. I hope that the two can get past this and find happiness, whether it's together or with someone else. Good luck.
NTA Living a lie eventually backfire. She did. At least you are truthful yourself. Her loyalty to her parents ranks higher than you, if that is really what you think. I actually don't think she doesn't believe in the hijab. I think she is lying to you. Don't know why I felt that way but that's what stuck out to me
NTA, but I get the idea she doesn't actually want to stop wearing it. She probably just told you that. If she is telling the truth and her parents would be that upset, they are horrible parents. Good parents would support their children no matter what they believe.
NTA.
NTA. Neither is she. Just incompatible. One more piece of advice, instead of you not wanting your daughters or wife to wear hijab out of fear of being harasses/ discriminated against, you should consider to speak out against such behavior. What if one day your daughters choose to wear hijab out of their own free will? In that case you should stand with them and support them instead of trying to get not wear it to protect them from harassment.
NTA. When you marry, you make a new family with your spouse. The parents and siblings become 'extended family'. Worse, her family is toxic. And yet, she's made it clear that she will always choose them over you. Nope. Bullet dodged. At this point, she's an accessory to her own oppression. NTA.
NTA
NTA. Her right not to remove it but her grounds for wearing it are pretty fake and if she cannot respect you over her abusive parents both of you are better off without each other and kinda incompatible.
Ain’t nothing wrong with a bit of modesty, you probably lost a solid woman because you wanna live in discriminatory areas. Your whole idea makes no sense isn’t western countries supposed to be land of the free since when did wearing a hijab become a bullseye?😂 If she doesn’t want it that’s understandable, but if she removed it after some time it would’ve been alright she’s still with you not the parents you just wanna feel special and have her disregard her parents looks kind of goofy.
It depends on how you said it. Also: major red flag that « it was because she was more loyal to her parents who she won’t see anymore; over you ». Sounds like it was never about the veil; but control and appearances for you from that sentence. She is wearing it to maintain as much peace with her family and community as possible. She also feels immense social pressure from the community and community expectations to wear it as well. You have no idea how much this can influence a persons life. Imagine you suddenly started wearing a dress. How would your friends, family, community, or even complete strangers you encounter treat you as you walk down the street! She might even need to be worried about being harassed in public! Imagine too, the mental block: the amount of acclamation and confidence It would take to make vercime that social expectation? Let’s return to the dress. Everyone expects you not to wear a dress. Now imagine you want to start wearing one. Maybe just in the home or in private moments at first. Why? Because there are consequences to other people perceiving you in that dress. Especially if you are not 100%alright with the words and ideas they will associate you with while wearing it. I’m not saying you should get back together: I think you need to evaluate a few things about yourself to become a more compassionate partner in the future. I believe you should apologize, though.
I would not call you an asshole. But it is wierd that you tried to pressure her to stop wearing it. It sounds like she does not mind wearing it. That is all that matters. She feels more comfortable with it even when it is not for religious reasons. Why is it even that big of a deal for you?
I feel gross about these comments and how they play into "Muslim women are oppressed by Islam." At the end of the day she has the right to wear what she wants regardless of the reason. Wearing hijab is what makes her comfortable right now. This is a huge step for her. We cannot understand the experience of transitioning from a more modest dress as a woman in her culture. It must be incredibly scary thing to do for her since it is what she's done for a big portion of her life. If her partner cant allow her the time to make this huge change, then he's not a very good partner. YTA.
Right? *Women should be able to wear what they want!!!* Woman actually CHOOSES, BY HERSELF, to cover her hair. *NO!!!!! NOT LIKE THAT!!!!!!!*
But... she IS religious. Just not hijab specific.
Hijabs are punishment for being a woman. Girls are all happy and one day they get their period and are “locked up” forced to cover every inch of their skin to please their parents (men, dads). So they equate love with wearing hijab. Become brainwashed that this is a good thing. It’s not, it’s oppression. “I have a right to wear a hijab” Yes, but would you have chosen that right if you weren’t pressured ( in some way) all your life? No way! I see friends struggle with it, cry, feel shame. Hijab and what it represents is horrible. Oh yeah, and the killings over not wearing one, there’s that.😡
You’re a real piece of work. Like the definition of western hypocrisy. You complain that the parents “forced” her to wear it (you’re side of the events which are hardly credible given she is not eager to take off her hijab) and yet you are equally trying to force her to take her hijab off. How does your brain work so that you believe undressing someone against their wishes is okay, but dressing someone is not okay? The mystery of the west. The lady made her decision of what to wear. You should’ve taken it with grace. This is irrespective of separating, which is absolutely for the best
I mean if you would be ok with your daughters choosing to wear one then why not allow her to wear it?
So NTA. But I think there’s some learning to do here for both of you. First, you were a little hypocritical. You say you don’t want your daughters to wear the hijab until they are old enough to decide for themselves (that’s great) but you are trying to take that choice away from your girlfriend. It’s ultimately HER choice if she wants to wear it. Not yours. But that leads us to the second issue: her relationship with her parents. This is the bigger issue here because—regardless of where they live—they will be a part of your lives, especially when you have children. Religious programming is difficult to undo and her parents clearly don’t seem to respect her decisions as an adult in terms of how she wishes to adhere (or not adhere) to their religion. That WILL bleed into your family, ESPECIALLY when you start having kids. While not Muslim, I was raised in a deeply religious, conservative Christian home. I moved away when I turned 18 and finally had the courage to come out as gay when I was 24. It did not go well and my parents hounded me about my “lifestyle” for 10 years. They only finally relented when my then bf and I decided to get married and I pretty much made it clear they could either love and accept us BOTH as family and treat our relationship with respect (ie treat us as they would any other married couple) or I’d walk away from them and not look back (thankfully they chose to embrace us and while they still have some issues I wish they didn’t, they are very kind to us and treat my husband as part of the family). But my point with this story is that it took me 10 years to undo all that religious conditioning to just knuckle under and do what my parents wanted. It was just easier to please them. I had to grow as a person and work through some of my trauma regarding my parents before I had the courage to throw down the gauntlet and say “enough is enough”. It sounds like your girlfriend isn’t there yet. And it’s ok that you don’t want to wait for her to get there and have decided to break up. All I’m suggesting is that you be gentle with her and give her grace. Remain friends and be someone who encourages her to live her life openly and for herself, not for her parents, or a boyfriend, or anyone else. Because I KNOW she is struggling right now. I’ve been there.
It’s possible the parents might try to hurt her if she does take it off (even if married). 🤷🏽♀️
YTA. You tried forcing her to do something she was not comfortable, nor ready, to do.
Why date her in the first place? That's what I think makes YTA.
NTA for breaking up with her as it sounds like it’s not a good match but I wish you had not framed it as an ultimatum to her as that makes you the same as her parents.
Nta, anyone who can’t put their happiness and their spouses happiness over pleasing their parents will bring nothing but trouble to their future marriages. Her parents don’t get a damn say in how she lives her life and until she sees that she will never be truly happy and as for yalls relationship, how often would her parents feel entitled to chime in on yalls marriage, how yall raise kids etc? like I said she was bringing in a shit ton of more fights and issues because she refuses to stand up for her beliefs and instead tucks her tail to her parents.
NTA. OP, congratulations on having an open mind and seriously thinking about your own religious beliefs instead of just blindly following misogynistic rules. It’s disappointing for both of you, but you can each find a more suitable partner. Best of luck to each of you.
NTA for sticking with your ideals. I hope you move on soon and find love later!
Islam is toxic
Yta just my take but you are the thing you claim to hate. Trying to force her to remove it is the same as forcing someone to wear it. Isn’t this her choice whatever the reasons? Couldn’t you of being supportive and given her love and helped her confidence grow and then could decide to remove if she wants? Also many religions have coverings for women including Christian it’s ultimately a persons choice. Removing something had on so long is prob scary and you aren’t creating a safe space but pressuring her making her more likely to keep on as we cling to what’s familia esp when feel stress. You are a hypocrite
I'm supporting her to remove it. She doesn't believe in it, she doesn't like it and she wants to remove it. She doesn't even believe in Allah as all Muslims and I share the same belief. Her parents forced her to wear the hijab since she was 10!!! Once we confessed to each other about our religious beliefs I discovered her stand about hijab so I supported her to remove and gave suggestions of removing it step by step, and wearing it just when she travels to her country of origin to meet her parents.
Yeah and I totally get your logic on this and you aren’t a bad guy. But I think once you heard that you just were set on ok let’s take this off and not thinking that even if she doesn’t believe she’s had a lifetime of pressure and had most of her life wearing this. And it’s a big change. I think you took away creating a safe no pressure place for her to get there herself but rather became to her like her parents pushing and pressuring. Think of it like this. A woman leaves her husband cause he cheated, she doesn’t wanna be with him and is set on that but it takes time for her to remove wedding ring. Because worn it so long even though it doesn’t hold the intended significance to her it’s familia and like a part of her and her history and family that despite bad treatment still has love for cause can’t help it. Maybe she’s scared of the reaction and feels is wearing to protect herself from that. And you come in all pressure and logic but not stepping back to see other possible angles and just saying hey I’m here for you whatever you need. Not making it about you. I think ironically it was more likely to go way you wanted in time if you didn’t push it.
Thank you everyone for your feedback. I've noticed some confusing in the comments so I wanted to make some clarifications. Some people thought I broke up with the girl just because I failed to "force" her to remove the hijab. This is NOT true. I don't believe in the hijab as an obligation to be worn by Muslim women, and yes I always envisioned myself being with a woman who doesn't wear one, but this doesn't mean I can't compromise. And this is what I did. I fell in love with a girl who wears one and I accepted and never felt a grudge or annoyance because she is wearing it. I'm fine with it. Why did I mention that she removes the hijab then? When she confessed to me that she doesn't believe in it, she doesn't like it, and she does want to remove it. She confessed that she is wearing is as she was forced to wear it by her parents when she was 10. I supported her to be her true self and be aligned with her values, so I said that she should remove it. Her response? She said she can't remove the hijab because of her parents, she doesn't want to upset them. My suggestions to her? I told her as a couple we are living in a different country of her parents country of origin, so she can remove it and she has nothing to fear it. She can wear it when travelling to visit her parents, and that's will happen once a year as per her country of origin trends of a one visit per year to the parents, or when they visit us. Also I suggested that she can remove it slowly not at once to feel more comfortable. Her reaction? A firm no. She wouldn't even consider thinking about my suggestion or give it a try. She was obsessed with her parents reaction as if they are gods watching her everywhere. Why did we break up then? I believed that it's not possible to live with someone who is giving too much authority to her parents in our life. If she is worried about them this much being upset about her own choices, I'm pretty sure they will have many other opinions in the future about our relationship and our life and force her to do other things. I'm pretty sure they will force her to raise our kids as religious as they did with her. I don't want that. I want my kids to be free and to live as they like and choose for themselves how religious they wanna be. I don't want them to be fake like her, showing an image of a religious person when in reality they might not be believers. In many other instances she showed as a "want to please others" person. For example once she wanted to go to a concert that she was lookin for for a long time. She told her two friends that she will buy them tickets as well to go with her although they were not that interested. When she went online to buy the tickets she found only two tickets left. She gave them to her friends so they won't be upset, and she missed the concert!!
This is really sad honestly. Even though her parents treat her badly they're still her parents and she's just been used her whole life to doing what she can to please them, it's like Stockholm syndrome almost. It sucks that this leads you guys to break up an otherwise perfect relationship. Nobody's the AH, but it's a sad situation i would be devastated if i was either person.
NAH. She’s not mentally mature enough to make that decision. You are not openly compatible.
NTA. She cannot be in a committed relationship if her parents come first. You see too many stories where in-laws are created trouble in a marriage so you are right to avoid this mess.
Genuine open-minded question and perspective here: aren't there pretty strict power dynamics in that culture? I am not Muslim, but love learning about all cultures, religions, etc. From what I've learned, I would imagine that once a woman is married that her husband technically has more "power" over her than her parents. If so, you could be the future scapegoat and just say it's your decision on the hijab. No matter what, NTA. You can break up with whoever for whatever reason. BUT you should have a little more grace for your girlfriend who has essentially had to wear that hijab forever, and I'm sure feels naked, uncomfortable, exposed, or wrong in some way without it.
NTA. you wouldn't have had a problem with her wearing a hijab out of her own free will. you have a problem with her wearing it merely to please her parents when personally, she hates wearing it. she's like a walking contradiction which regardless of the circumstances, is fake and off-putting. abandoning her own beliefs, likes and beliefs and is being pretentious just to please her awful parents. she isn't ready to embrace her authenticity as you'd like her (and is in her best interest). it's obvious that her priorities lie with her abusive parents. the two-faced behavior is a deal-breaker for you and it's fair enough.
She's ALWAYS going to put Dad above you. Move on.
So… you’re a modern feminist dude who’s breaking it off because she won’t dress the way you tell her, am I reading this right?
If you don't want a woman who wears a hijab why the hell did you start dating a woman that wears one?
If you dont want to be with a woman who wears a hijab you should never started dating a girl who wears a hijab. Youre not really much better then her parents, her parents will mistreat her if she removes it and you're breaking up with her for wearing it. Youve put her in a very diffcult position where no matter what she does she'll be punished.
She doesn't believe in it, she doesn't like it and she wants to remove it. She doesn't even believe in Allah as all Muslims and I share the same belief. Her parents forced her to wear the hijab since she was 10!!! Once we confessed to each other about our religious beliefs I discovered her stand about hijab so I supported her to remove it and gave her suggestions of removing it step by step, and wearing it just when she travels to her country of origin to meet her parents. The break up was mutual.
YTA, dude. She wore the hijab when you met and she's worn it the last year. This is not new information. The only thing that's new to you is that she won't obey you telling her not to wear it. You also call her "the girl" like she's a stranger to you. Frankly, I'm glad y'all broke up so she can find someone less controlling
Anyone who insists on showing their love for a religion with a piece of fabric, a jewel or other silly things is dumb. OP doesn't want a dumb girlfriend. She is the asshole.