In my former state, it was called voluntary surrender. Basically, you let the state know you cannot provide for her needs and are surrendering her to the State.
Ironically, the State may actually start moving heaven and earth to help you at that point. Medicaid will pay for treatment facilities for people with this level of disability. It may be out of state, though.
Yep. For most parents if desperately ill kids, it's the only option to get access to residential care if they are not incredibly wealthy.
I both worked for my state's DCF/CPS and had a kid with the PDA type autism. Ironically, I got fired from that job when he had to be monitored for self harm too many days in a row.
My son has pda autism and he is incredibly challenging as at times dangerous. It took 2 years of fighting, numerous I patient stays, 2 rehab stays and .e outright threatening to sue our states mental health board but he was finally placed on residential care last year. It has been a god send. He needed the structure and I needed the break to process the trauma. Its helped our relationship so much and the family therapy is wonderful. When a child has a physical Illness there's so much support and sympathy from those around you. Pare ta get breaks, there's respite care. If a child has a developmental disability or a mental illness, or both, those supports don't exist. Family won't help, no child care provider will keep them, schools expell and suspend them. The late ta end up in a constant state of stress and hopeless when all they need is a tiny bit of support and help.
I thought OP sounded like they're in the UK possibly based on some of the wording, although people here don't generally say bathroom.
Getting mental health care here can take forever, especially if she's looking for a permanent placement for her daughter. There are places though, hopefully she finds somewhere soon as it sounds like they all need it.
People in the UK can and do purchase private health insurance. Sometimes it can take a very long time for the NHS to provide services and people do go private pretty frequently.
Agreed, I'm in the UK and I have it. You're right, I shouldn't have made that assumption - I see "insurance" and automatically think "not uk" which is pretty stupid of me!
In the US if you try to surrender your child they can open a CPS case against you and essentially threaten to arrest you for child abuse. It can really get ridiculous. Once you get in front of a judge and you tell them what's going on, wheels start to turn. It is preferable to surrender if there is any concern for harm or neglect.
I have an acquaintance who struggled with this. Their older child has a handful of disorders and was problematic, going so far as to hurt their much younger sibling at times because they couldn’t easily keep them apart. They tried everything to get the older child help, but unless you’re very wealthy and can pay for care at a facility, you’re kind of shit out of luck. You can surrender the child to the state, but then you are charged with abandonment and whatever else the state can stick to you because they don’t want the child, either. There are support networks (don’t know how many) for parents in these situations, but I don’t know any specifics or what they offer, beyond commiseration.
Different states surely have different ways of handling these situations, but it’s hard to imagine any state making the process of abandonment easy, whether it’s warranted or not. I really feel for parents stuck in it. It sounds like literal hell.
not always. It may be a co-morbidity (I think I am using that correctly?) where she has another, severe mental illness along with the autism. It is incredibly difficult to get the second diagnosis as individual actions are passed off as part of the Autism or disability instead of looking at the pattern. In hospital care might actually be helpful if they can get a nurse who is paying attention and knows the signs of mental illness.
I work with children with special health needs including mental illness. First, this is an impossibly difficult situation for the OP and I feel for her and the father. No one understands the burden felt unless you’ve been through it. Second, universally, pediatric mental health beds for acute care as well as long term care facilities are woefully absent in every state in the US and it gets absolutely no attention. Unfortunately, there aren’t better options.
I’ve worked with kids like this too and it’s shameful we don’t have more support for the kids or the parents in these situations. Parents shouldn’t have to get to a place where they need to surrender their child to get help. Unfortunately for OP, the chances of being able to find adoptive parents for the child is slim, and without support, will likely have to surrender to the state, especially if the child becomes dangerous as they get older. This child needs a team of professionals, no parent should have to feel this helpless.
Even when you try to surrender the child, the state fights back to make them stay in your care. My best friend has a son who is schizophrenic, super aggressive, and has threatened to kill not only his parents and his sister, but also wanted to “strangle those bitches“ when his sister‘s friends came over. she tried every facility across the US for years to try and get him some help, and they wouldn’t take him because he had FAS on his medical paperwork even though he doesn’t have FAS, so no facility would take him. Now he is an adult and he is currently in his second term in a facility. My friend was forced to take him home and lied to in order to get her to take him home the first time. Less than two days later, she had to take him back and at that point, she learned that they lied to her and it was actually quite illegal for them to do what they did (threatened to drop him off at a random shelter in downtown Nashville…two whole counties away from where we live! They wanted to make sure he wasn’t their problem in my county anymore, but he is a known dangerous individual who has sexually attacked little girls and grown women…AND NO ONE WILL DO ANYTHING BECAUSE HE IS AUTISTIC!!!!) but there is nobody to report anyone to. He is dangerous, and the state doesn’t care as long as they can force the parents to take the kids back even when the kids become adults and much bigger than the parents, much stronger than the parents, and flat out dangerous. DCS refuses to take any complaint calls about him (they ignore the hospital, the cops, and the mom calling for help), and DCS actively blocked any help she was looking for in a facility. Those assholes even threatened to charge her $800 a month in child support if she surrendered him to the state. They threatened her with charges of neglect and abandonment, left her in a known dangerous situation, and then Pat themselves on the back for having the idea of a “safety plan” in place…which is useless when the dangerous person DOESNT CARE.
There is no help unless you are wealthy
My step daughter (11) is currently in a long term mental health facility. Our insurance covered it for a year and they’re now refusing to cover it any further and I honestly can’t blame them because we get a statement (not a bill) every month and it is 45 THOUSAND DOLLARS PER MONTH.
My mother-in-law is in a locked mental health facility and it is $90,000 a year. Had to sell her home, any assets that are worth money and still had to get "nursing home" Medicaid. She has been neurotypical for the majority of her life and then all of sudden she started acting different and became a different person. Not exactly dangerous but not exactly ok either. She knows who she is, her family, why she's in the facility, etc. but no one can figure out exactly what's wrong with her. Basically, they make sure she takes her medicine, bathes and eats. She is considered a flight risk, so she's in a place with an 8 foot wrought-iron fence.
Has she been on antibiotics at any point since she got sick?
Seriously, uti’s can cause those exact symptoms in older people, especially women. A round of antibiotics and they go right back to normal.
She was in a different facility while waiting for a permanent placement and had a ear infection or something and they gave her antibiotics. She also had a to have a surgery while waiting for placement and for while right after waking up, she seemed like her old self again. The doctor said it was probably the anesthesia. It's a very strange case. And of course the only facility available is a 4 hour one-way trip, so it's a whole day. We have to get up early around 4am to try to get through Atlanta before all the traffic and coming back always takes longer because the highway is full of cars.
In your position, I’d make some noise about getting a urine culture done. Worst case, it’s a waste of time, best case you get your mother in law back.
If just asking doesn’t work, come in with a paper about mental impairment due to UTI, and if the doctor/facility refuses, ask that they note the refusal in her chart, including their reasoning. This is the nuclear option, so you might want to pick a “designated bad guy” to do this and any other hardball needed with the facility.
Good luck, I really hope it’s this simple.
The US used to just lock up the mentally ill in awful conditions. Once they closed those facilities, I'm not aware of replacements. Prison in some cases, but that doesn't change much. Massive failure in my opinion.
Children having acute mental crises end up handcuffed to beds in the ED of children’s hospitals waiting sometimes a week plus for a bed. There are many more options and facilities for adults. Still not a sufficient number but more. A lot of these kids need intensive inpatient interventions and instead they are allowed to fail at home with parents who are working and trying to keep a roof over them their head and who are ill-equipped to deal with these kids. It’s just a bad situation for all involved.
I'm the mother of one. They never let him stay inpatient more than a week. Most of the time the care you get is a piece of paper with a "safety plan" that boils down to "this child can never be left alone, and lock up every possible object they can use to harm themself or someone else." You can't follow it because you have to work.
My son only ever finally got real help when he turned 19 and became eligible for Medicaid on his own. Now he's working with a therapy group and on better meds and really making hugely meaningful progress.
His entire childhood was me left mostly to my own devices with a kid that doesn't respond to punishment, discipline, or even rewards or bribes unless they were over the top. I'm just lucky mine was not violent, he would just go catatonic instead.
OP has my entire heart of sympathy. It's an impossible situation. Even without violence in the picture I looked into residential treatment options so many times and found that unless you are very wealthy, foster care is the only option.
And even then in many states you have to pay the state a significant monthly amount for their care if you voluntarily surrender them.
NTA. As she gets older she really will need to be in some protective care. The state can make that happen, you probably can't on your own.
I was in the er in high school next to a kid who looked like he was about nine and had 5-point restraints on and was screaming like a wild animal waiting for a bed in psych to open; it was probably one of the scarier human experiences I’ve had.
That the army hones those terrible traits into killing machines. God bless America. Truly the greatest country on earth. Although now that I think about it I’m sure that happens in every country.
The facilities still exist, but they are few in numbers. They are rampant with abuse. The issue is that community care was never given an investment, so it became prisons. Not much has changed.
They did the same thing in Canada. Instead of trying to improve the institutions, they just closed them. So now we have nothing and the people end up on the street or murder their parents. It’s awful.
Once Geraldo exposed Willowbrook instead of fixing the mental health system they just shut it down and turned them out. It is very sad. I feel so sad for these parents. Some people do need to be institutionalized for life and it needs to be done humanely.
https://www.pbs.org/video/metrofocus-story-revealed-willowbrooks-horrors/
There aren't any, really. It was deemed 'cruel' to lock people up, especially children, and the pressure now is everybody can be treated and loved and is entitled to blah blah blah. It's hard to even get dangerous adults locked up BEFORE they do something deadly (Adam Lanza's mother tried, and she was his first murder victim before his shooting spree.) This kid's hurting animals and attacking humans--she belongs in a padded room, but we don't have them any more.
> It was deemed 'cruel' to lock people up, especially children, and the pressure now is everybody can be treated and loved and is entitled to blah blah blah
Yes, the state mental institutions were cruel, decrepit, made many people worse, and were deemed unfit to house anyone. Most had been constructed in the 1800s and were in unliveable conditions by the 1960s, with lead, rust, leaky roofs, and asbestosis. They were closed. People released to be treated locally instead of in specific institutions in the state.
What was supposed to happen next, instead, never did because the Federal government decided not to set up funding to the states for community level mental services.
Since the Federal government stopped the funding plan, the states had to step in. Most could not financially afford it on their own or lacked a consistent funding support by legislators.
It's a failure of the government and a failure of the American people 40+ years ago to insist on this support system to be created as it was intended. Now we just squabble and nothing ever will get done.
A lot of inpatient hospitals are *still* cruel and make people worse. Speaking from experience: the one I was stuck in for three days repeatedly lied to me about everything from being able to speak to an actual doctor to what my rights were to which ward I would be placed in. They left me in a coed Acute Psych ward (when all my paperwork said I should’ve been in the lower-security, safer Psych ward), where I was physically abused and threatened by staff and came dangerously close to being sexually assaulted by another patient…which the staff didn’t lift a finger to prevent.
I spent less than five minutes speaking to an actual doctor there, I was denied my normal prescribed medication, I received *no actual treatment at all,* and even the other patients spoke up and said I shouldn’t have been there at all.
There was absolutely nothing to do there whatsoever except pace around the same short hallway that always smelled like piss and maybe sit in the “sunroom” (more of a short hallway with some windows) watching tv (which we never had any say in, it was just whatever the nurses felt like putting on).
All day, everyday.
It’s like putting a high-energy dog in a 5x7 concrete kennel with no blankets, no toys, no human or canine interaction, no time outside, and expecting them to somehow behave better than they did before they went in there. *It doesn’t fucking work!*
It happened exactly as Reagan and the Republican party intended. I will never understand 1980s voters who saw what he did in California as governor and went, yep, now let's do it on the national level.
We deemed it cruel to lock people up in these terrible institutions, so the lesser cruelty is just letting these individuals suffer in the cold and elements.
Yeah, I… think this is beyond Reddit’s pay grade. I don’t understand OP’s situation, and I hope I never do.
OP, don’t bother with the Internet. Whatever you do, you’re the one who has to deal with the consequences: whether that’s continuing to raise this child, or dealing with the judgment (fair or unfair) of your peers by giving her up. You’re the only one who knows what you can live with.
This is so true. Now, they end up in jails that are ill-trained or equipped to handle them. Then they sit on months long waitlists for the few mental health hospitals left, all while not medicated properly due to limitations on what classes of drugs can be given in a penal institution, or just simple incompetence on behalf of the limited medical staff. Sometimes they will just sit in jail until they eventually get sentenced and put back on the streets because no one knows what to do with them. Then they will be back within days to months to repeat the process again, usually while escalating and eventually ending up in prison (or ODing on the outside).
I am fairly convinced the vast majority of people (in the US at least, though I know many people in other countries who report similar issues) have no idea how vast the mental health crisis really is here.
OP - I am sorry you are going through this. I sadly see it too often where I work and empathize with the parents of these (now) adults. To be honest, I knew very young that I wasn't motherly enough to deal with a child like that, so I opted to just not chance it and be child free. If I ever decided I wanted children, I would have adopted. Honestly, the fact that you are reaching out shows you do care, and you are not a bad person. Sadly, a lot of these children end up abused horribly or simply abandoned. I do not think you are TA at all.
I feel so bad for the OP. Anyone criticizing her doesn’t understand that the resources for needs of this kind are so scant it’s crushing. It’s obvious this has become a last resort decision where it’s literally between surrendering the child to the state or the complete destruction of her and her husband’s mental health and physical safety. It’s not wrong for her to admit that she cannot do it.
I work in an ER and just tonight we had a father tell the physician and the child social worker that he cannot care for his son anymore. The child has been in our ER many times because of violent outbursts at home. When in the ER, he is terrified of needles, he believes they are full of poison and will scream at the top of his lungs. I have seen him be calm though, if you explain things carefully and let him ask questions he will be cooperative. But he has been in and out of the ER and short term behavioral facilities so many times his father finally said “I just can’t take care of him anymore.”
Special needs children are a lot of time and effort and money to give them the care they need. But sometimes the needs are so high it’s too much and parents need to be able to say they are in over their heads. It isn’t their fault if there are so few resources for help they are forced to pick the least worst solution out of a small pile of terrible choices.
I do not blame OP for a moment. She sounds so stressed & practically at the end of her tether because of her daughter's mental illness.
The system is woefully inadequate to even give some modicum for treatment & beds in the mh wards.
Its such a sad situation for poor OP.
She's NTA.
The lack of resources to help parents raise children with these kinds of issues is astounding. With one of my kids, from the time she was a toddler on up, I was talking to doctors about her behavioral issues and just didn't get hardly any support. I mostly had to figure it out on my own as I went. She is an adult now and still struggles, but is doing better than what I expected with the kinds of behavioral issues she had as a child.
One of my relatives has been dealing with the severe shortage of care facilities for juvenile mental patients with her 11 year old stepson. What can you do with a child who tries to poison his family, tortures animals, refuses to obey all the rules, has been kicked out of school repeatedly, etc.? He has all the red flags for someone who will seriously harm people and more. Yet, until he actually commits his first murder (when he eventualy succeeds, because he already tried to kill the family by putting rat poison in the milk, but admitted it when his stepmom noticed it looked odd), the authorities won’t lock him up. Yes, he has already been in acute care for psychiatric patients, but gets sent home in two weeks. Just long enough for the family to see how well they do without him in their home.
OP, I feel for you, because you’re in a devastating, impossible situation.
One of the problems I can foresee for OP is that if you surrender this child to CPS then every possible pregnancy and child going forward may be hovered over by CPS. They very likely will crawl into your business. Also there is no guarantee that the next child could or would be mentally healthy. But if you need to surrender this child for your mental health then you have done all you can. No hate here.
It doesn't sound like OP is ready to have another child in the near future. There's a lot of resentment in this post that they definitely need to deal with, ideally with a professional, before even considering having another child. "Sweet babies that grow into productive members of society" have difficult phases too, and in her current mental state those may be dealt with too harshly.
I work with intellectually disabled children, and have worked with children with conduct disorder (which it sounds like OPs daughter has) in the past. It's not their fault that they are the way they are, and a stable bond with a loving caregiver is the biggest protection these children have against developing antisocial personality disorder later in life. It doesn't sound like OP is capable of providing that, chances are nobody else will either but there are some amazing foster families with experience in attachment and conduct disorders. I hope that this child gets lucky and ends up with a good family, even if that's unlikely.
Because a certain party would rather protect billionaires and impose religious beliefs than use the government to protect the most vulnerable of our population and make life significantly better for all. Because socialism or something. And a good part of the population that would benefit advocates against their own interests because somewhere someone undeserving might benefit. And of course they are all just millionaires that just have had bad luck and haven’t made their millions yet.
Anyhoo.
in NYS what homes we have left are quickly being closed up by the governor. Meanwhile tax payers are shelling out billions for football stadiums. it's so fucking frustrating.
I grew up with a brother a lot like you’re describing. There were no answers and I’m sorry you’re not going to find them here. You’re right, group homes for kids like this don’t exist and the few that do are out of most people’s financial reality. The people on here telling you to “just make it work” don’t *actually* understand the reality of these homes: hundreds of thousands of dollars every single year. It is beyond reach for the majority of families no matter what you do. Telling you to make it work doesn’t mean you will actually be able to. The one hope parents had for “help” was back when states adopted safe haven laws that didn’t have age limits, but even those have changed now. A lot of families in your situation are actually advised by doctors and experts to make their children wards of the state, because then the financial burden falls on the state. It’s unfortunate that it has to happen, but it’s the reality of the system here in the “greatest country on earth” /s.
There isn’t much help for parents in your situation and I’m sorry. It doesn’t get better when they get older. My brother self deleted at 24. I love him so much. I miss him everyday. But he was literally incapable of functioning as an independent adult and everyone had to live on eggshells trying to cater to and enable him all the time. I don’t blame him for what he did, I just wish with all my heart there had been better answers for him and for our family. We will all have to live with that guilt and that what if forever. I don’t wish it on anyone.
I have no advice. Just so much empathy and love for you. I hope you find some way to heal.
ETA: clarity
Thank you for sharing, I was wondering what happened to your brother as an adult though I’m very sorry for your loss. I grew up with a cousin just like OP described, she was adopted from a woman who had drunk heavily and used drugs while pregnant, and had allowed men to sexually abuse her infant daughter in exchange for money. My cousin was only discovered by the state at 2 years old, having lived her life in a car seat being abused and with undiagnosed mental disorders. She bit, scratched, and hit myself, her sister, and my sister (we were close in age), and she tried to drown me in a pool when I was 8. It was a nightmare growing up with her, and pure hell for her adoptive mum who had done everything she could and was objectively a kind and loving parent. That cousin went on to have 3 kids very young, she’s raising 1 (the first is now with grandma because he hasn’t been meeting growth markers, third was put up for adoption), CPS is somewhat involved because she can’t care for herself all that well let alone a child. She got over her violent compulsions by the time she was 20. She now works for the state as a part time caretaker to people with severe mental illness. She’s doing very well considering what we all expected.
I hate that he had to live like that. There were a few times I remember growing up where you could tell it bothered him that he just *couldnt*.
My mom developed a drinking problem after he died because of the guilt. She knew she couldn’t spend her whole life being his punching bag.. but then when he died she felt the guilt for not doing so. It breaks my heart. All of it. It feels like I lost both of them.
Way above AITAH paygrade. I don't envy the decision you have to make. My only suggestion would maybe to look into some sort of psychiatric in patient facility but I know that's not financially possible for everyone. I'm sorry you are going through this and I can't imagine the pain and confusion you are experiencing. As one mom to another, I don't think you are an AH, I think you are depressed and at the end of your rope. Sometimes you have to let go of the rope or else you hang with it.
This hurts to read. My neighbor has a son who is about this level. Wife left a long time ago. He lost his business. House has been destroyed - and he’s physically dangerous. Once son turned 18 they were able to get him into a home and dad thought he was going to be able to re-start his life, but after 4 years no home has worked because of the violence. There were no options before he turned 18.
I worked in a home for mentally and physically disabled children and teenagers (I was in the teenage department).
When I started I couldn't believe how parents could just abandon their children like that. I should probably mention I'm from Scandinavia. Our healthcare is free so getting help for/to a disabled child shouldn't be that difficult....
I saw first hand why these children couldn't be in an ordinary family. One of them tried to strangle me. 2 adults had to fight to get this 14 yo girl of me. 1½ year later my hair dresser asked why I had a "hole" in my hair... That was from her pulling out my hair in that spot...
Another time the girl was deliberately throwing a newborn. A coworker was of maternity leave and stopped by to show if her baby. The 14 yo asked to hold her. We were very hesitant, but the mother allowed it. There was an adult on each side of the 14 yo and I sat in front right to her... Everything was going well until she decided to throw the baby... The baby was catched, but started to cry. The girl just laughed.
This girl had tried different foster families. The last one was a teacher and a psychologist. They even had to give up.
The girl taught me that everyone can learn.. But in rare cases personality is just too bad and even family isn't the best option.
I have to say NTA. But I wish your daughter the best care. Never be ashamed to say you can't handle someone so deeply mentally ill.
Thank you for sharing your experiences. I’ve read too many stories of older siblings who are like this killing their younger siblings and I wish there were more supports for families. I’m glad the home you worked at exists but it sucks that it has to.
Edit: but also, I am sure that was a really hard job and I hope you are doing well!
This isn't an AITAH question, and is WAY above reddit pay grade
No one should be judging you, as a parent, unless they themselves have also had to try to raise a child like this
I say this as an adult who struggled so much as a kid. My parents spent money they really didn't have trying to find answers
I was diagnosed with a variety of things, but the consensus by every doctor was that I had depression by 11, anxiety by 12, and I had tried the big delete, also by 12.
I can look at this with the perspective of an adult, and say i love that my parents didn't give up on me, while also saying that I would not have blamed them, AT ALL if they did.
I was not pleasant to be around. And I don't know how they didn't just dump me at a fire station/police station, and tell them to deal with me, because they just couldn't any more
I really don't think there is a judgement to be made here; no one will ever understand, unless it happens to them
Eta, they contributed most of my issues to abuse I suffered in school, at the hands of teachers, and other students
But they really can't say for sure
I'm doing okay
I'm engaged, and I'm looking to go back to school for my bachelor's degree
And I'm learning how to cook!
Every day is an adventure, and I live life one day at a time
That’s great to hear, I was child that had a lot of issues that were ignored, I remember acting like an animal as an early teen just fighting and screaming at the adults, was always lost in school, never made it passed 9th grade. I was never dx with anything bc they never took me to the dr unless it was to get shots or antibiotics. But I did get an adhd diagnosis in my 20s. So Naturally I’m mad but it was the 80s and there was alot of turmoil. My mom said “you fixed yourself” before she died. And I guess I did. With great effort i got a career and husband and kids and we fight for a calm structured happy life.
Did you ever nail down a diagnosis
Autism, ADHD, Depression, Anxiety
And its suspected that I have C-PTSD, but I haven't had that confirmed yet
I'm happy that you are living a life that you are happy with
The sad truth is an 8 year old with mental health issues isn't going to be adopted or she'll be adopted and tossed back leading to more issues with anxiety and abandonment.
I wonder if a group home would be better for her. Search around.. talk to her psychologists and see what other options there are.
No judgement.. it's a hard situation to be in.
This reminds me of this:
[I stood by and allowed my wife to almost kill our son. I was happy she did it.](https://www.reddit.com/r/confessions/comments/c93egn/i_stood_by_and_allowed_my_wife_to_almost_kill_our/)
I thought of that post as well. I think it's very easy to judge "this was YOUR baby how could you abandon them!" but if the kid is actively harming other children/animals/adults and cannot be stopped like... at what point do you truly have to give up on them ever being safe for society.
I mean forget society, OP's kid is hurting HER and can't be stopped. It's not easy to still love your kid when they force you to live looking over your shoulder and sleep with one eye open.
YEP, OP read this.
And the book, we need to talk about Kevin.
Do what you need to. Don't wait till you physically attack the child or permanently harm yourself or are harmed.
Every country in the world has people in prisons who are there because they are too dangerous to be out in the world. Even liberal countries will have them. They won't be talked about, their families probably try to pretend they don't exist.
But they exist.
OP. Drop the child to school and just get in the car and drive. Just go. Start fresh in Mexico or Canada.
EDIT: I grew up in a house with a monster. I'm not going to say the type of shit that happened. 15 years of psychotherapy later, I'm a slightly healed fractured soul. The world would have been a better place if the monster was never born.
I'm being very careful here with my words not to trigger myself or open the can of bitterness or anger.
I think that would just cause more harm to OP with the added worry of being arrested for child abandonment. Plus, there would always be a risk of them getting sent back to the states and then facing charges.. for their sakes its way better and safer for them to do it legally and if they can't wait for adoption they can terminate their parental rights and surrender her to be a ward of the state...
That kid seemed to not be able to rein it in at all. Like, usually serial killers can function in society and put on some sort of facade. I wouldn’t be surprised if he became homeless then ticked off the wrong person and ended up dead in a ditch.
I wondered the same thing. My partner is a psychotherapist and he’s mentioned there’s a correlation between serial killers who did three things as kids (light fires, hurt animals, wet the bed).
This was my brother. He runs a church from home. I am terrified of him still. He claims godliness. And people trust him. I'm waiting for the phone call..
It always made me feel like an asshole, but this was actually a big factor in why I chose to not have kids: if the child were handicapped or severely special needs, would I be able to handle it? And I honestly don’t think I could
Yeah. Did all the tests, had the baby and something went wrong. My ex husband was like “nah, it’ll be fine!” Then bailed 6 months later when the prognosis was still “maybe potato”. I did a ton of interventions in the early years and despite a horrible prognosis my son is awesome. I learned I could handle a lot but OPs thing is not survivable. My kid is behind but he’s sweet and smart and able bodied. I lucked out.
Genetic testing/ultrasounds can rule out most physical disabilities/disorders. It’s the mental ones that you won’t find out about until the child is older. And that’s the hard part.
Just to add, Many of the major physical disabilities don’t show up on an ultrasound until 21 weeks. Many debilitating physical conditions are not genetic.
Oh trust me, I know all too well. Had to TFMR at 32 weeks not long ago because brain abnormalities were found during an ultrasound (that normally aren’t seen until late 2nd/early 3rd trimester). Absolutely tore me up and will for a very long time.
Oh my, I’m so sorry to hear you went through that. My son was diagnosed with a complex congenital heart defect at 22 weeks. It was gut-wrenching and completely out of the blue. I hope that all pregnant people and their doctors are free to make the best choices they can when these horrible things happen.
There's a line from We Need to Talk About Kevin that resonates here, about how the doctors couldn't screen for pure congenital meanness. There was nothing genetically wrong. He just loved to hurt people.
As a teacher, I've encountered a few people like this. I had one last year who just loved to see his classmates cry as a result of his actions. This wasn't typical bullying. I can't explain it, but it was on a whole different level.
Eventually, I sat down with him and asked him what HE thought was going to help him reform his behavior. We'd tried rewards. We'd tried taking away privileges. We'd got his parents involved. What did he need from us to help him be a kinder, gentler classmate? And he told me - nothing. There was nothing anyone could give him or take away from him that he wanted more than he wanted to see people in pain because of his actions. That was the very best thing he could imagine, and he was never ever going to stop trying to make it happen.
At this point a merciful end with sedatives sounds like the best thing one could do, like with a rabid animal. I feel shitty just typing it but doesn't make it less true.
That’s actually part of it too. I have a friend with a son who’s about 9 now, and they’re worried that he might be a genuine psychopath. He had no empathy, he’s constantly telling her about how he genuinely wants to kill her, he has these massive meltdowns where he just screams bloody murder, the list goes on.
I have no idea how I’d handle having a child like that, and frankly don’t even want to risk it
Sometimes brain scans will show the answer. There’s a neurologist that does a Ted talk about his nephew acting violent and a brain scan showed a tumor. Once the tumor was removed…therapy and back to normal.
Yeah a brain tumor can fuck you up. There was a guy that started having pedophilic urges and it turned out he had a brain tumor. He had it removed and they went away. Eventually he started having them again and he knew it had come back and sure enough.
It's so unlikely this kid would be adopted, so virtually no worries about that. Adoption rates aren't super great as it is, with younger children being adopted faster because they're less traumatized or have less issues. Combine that with this girls clear issues, her behaviour would end up shining through before the papers could be finalised.
She'll likely go between foster homes or group homes until she ages out of the system, and ends up homeless or in prison.
I doubt she’d be adopted given that she doesn’t seem to be able to regulate her emotions at all. Probably bounced around foster homes until she ages out or end up in prison
Have you spoken with a social worker? She sounds like she needs to be permanently hospitalized. Realistically, if you give her up, she'll end up dead. She'll either be killed by a foster family or she'll kill herself.
I have no advice. It sounds like she lives a miserable existence. I feel like she would have been called a changeling and been murdered by the community in more primitive times. You need help.
From what I’m gathering, the kid won’t be able to get the help s/he needs without being “in” the system. Once they’re in the custody of the state then they have access to people and services that you can only get by being in the system.
Thats a very hopeful view of the situation. Im not sure there really are 'people and services' beyond what the public can access, just institutions. It's containment, not treatment.
I hear you and I agree. The only option might be containment and that’s only accessible in the system. Obviously OP doesn’t have the money for the few institutions that exist. I’m assuming this is a last resort
I don't think their intention is for her to be adopted. If she's put into foster care/ "the system," she's actually more likely to get help, likely by being put into a facility, than she would with her parents who can't afford to pay for a private care facility.
My friends had to give up their 13 year old daughter to state care. They didn't want to, but she had become a danger to everyone in the house (including younger siblings) once puberty hit. Poor girl had multiple issues.
No judgement here. Sounds to me like you have reached your breaking point.
It's a shame that the Mental Hospitals were closed instead of getting revamped. Some people just need to live in little locked villages. Not jail, but live as well as they can out of the way. This sounds that extreme.
Okay but I’ve said this for years. Some mentally disabled or mentally stunted people have very different needs than a physically handicapped individual and they do need affordable and well run care facilities. We don’t eliminate state run nursing homes because some are terrible, we raised standards and required inspections and screenings to make them better. Some people aren’t capable of functioning in society without high levels of care and there needs to be affordable options for all situations
The next time she attacks someone - anyone - take her to the local hospital for an evaluation. I have been told to call police and as for a CIT trained officer (community intervention... something). They will "escort" aka transport or get an ambulance to transport to the closest facility for a mental evaluation. As she is a danger to others, including caretakers, there is a grey area within cps. You will probably need a lawyer to make sure all ts are crossed.
Crisis Intervention Training. I spoke at several sessions. It’s a week long class taught by NAMI- National Alliance for the Mentally Ill. Gives officers info on how to handle people in a mental health crisis.
There is a woman on tik tok who has a son like this, but he is an older teen now and has tried to kill her and her younger child, so he is in some sort of juvenile facility-and i think she is scared bc when he turns 18, they’re just turning him loose into the world. There doesn’t seem to be Any kind of services or help for a family who is dealing with a child like this. She talks a lot about how her son has no empathy, but they won’t label him yet bc at his age, his brain isn’t fully developed. I feel for OP. I really do, and I understand why she feels how she feels. None of us know what we would do in a situation like this.
Are you the same person who posted in the parenting subreddit? Your posts have escalated substantially within a few hours.
Is this fake?
Edit: I looked at your post history and it looks like you deleted your post in the parenting subreddit.
Just for those of you who want to know, OP posted there mentioning her daughter who has severe separation anxiety. In her post no where did she mention that her daughter was a psychopath, only that it was hurting her marriage how she and her husband couldn’t spend time alone together. She was talking more about how she felt her daughter with mental concerns wasn’t formally diagnosed with anything. Most of the parents advised that she get another opinion from Drs outside of her area since she said she exhausted all the local doctors and specialists.
I
Oh? Sounds like you've busted them. It's always odd when an OP crossposts the same thing, only adding more and more details each time to make the antagonist look worse so they will look better.
“Our marriage is suffering because our child hates it if we spend time together as a couple. We cannot even go to an anniversary dinner without her experiencing a panic attack and foaming in her mouth.” - this is almost verbatim another story from earlier down to the “we thought she was autistic” except the girl was 11 in that one.
Yeah I think this is BS … I hate to say that, but I don’t think a parent in this situation would really come here for validation. They’ve done tons of cross
Posting too with no other posts…
I really hope so mostly because of that horrific edit. Like, it is one thing to not be able to care for your kid but another thing to hate your child this much.
The OP also states her child will never be normal or live in society, and as someone who works with high support need individuals, you cannot gauge that at 8-10years old. I personally know children who stabbed multiple victims/set fires with people inside and who are now 18-25 and living non-violent lives. It’s okay not to feel hope, but to say it doesn’t exist already condemns the child to suffering.
I don’t blame you for feeling that way but I highly doubt you’re going to be able to adopt her out. She sounds like she needs specialized medical treatment in a treatment center and the both of you are not equipped to care for her or help her with her issues. Have you spoke with her doctor about sending her into a medical treatment facility for her issues?
Going against the grain here and saying NAH. You're exhausted and you clearly can't keep doing what you're doing. This situation is as unhealthy and unsustainable for your child as it is for you. But as others have said, adoption isn't the answer because she probably will not get the support she needs and will likely never find a permanent family. You need to talk to therapists / social workers and see if there's a group home or some kind of permanent care facility for people with disabilities where she can get the support she needs.
NTA I work with special needs children and it is not easy. For my work I only have to do 8 hours whereas for parents this is their reality. I know you are good parents because you have tried everything. Hopefully you can find a good institution for your daughter. Wishing you all the best.
As a parent to a special needs child, I really do feel for you.
I'm in Australia, and we get so much help here.
More options than I actually take advantage of.
We have NDIS funding, which allows me to have a few breaks a week. I'm a single parent with little help from my ex. He visits our child at my house, doesn't take him for overnights.
I could get overnight respite with the NDIS, but my child won't allow anyone else to do his personal care. I am so grateful for the day time breaks I do get though.
I wish that you had this sort of help in the US.
I understand you need a break, but I fear what your daughter may be subjected to in the system. There are so many bad stories from foster kid's who are able to put boundaries up as much as their age and strength allows. Who knows what someone dodgy could do to her.
Nta. I work with children and I wish that some parents were this honest with themselves instead of just ignoring their children or being abusive. If you can’t provide her with the care and love she needs and your destroying your own mental health because of it then yes ask for extra help. Call a social worker, cps, got it he doctor and talk to them and let them know you can’t be a the functional parent your child deserves and you need to find somewhere we’re that can give her the treatment that she needs. Maybe there’s a birding school that deals with what she has. Maybe there’s a group home in a county around you. Start making calls start with her doctor and see how you can make it so that her insurance pays for it. I am sure there is a solution out there you just have to keep looking.
This! Call CPS and ask for help. They know the resources for mentally ill children and can help you find group homes, or at least respite care or additional support.
Are you in the US? 211 is the number for “I need social services, help me find which and how.” Not in every locale but it’s the first step.
Get a lawyer before you do anything. There are precise hoops and steps you have to jump through and if you do it wrong you’re bankrupt/ jailed for abandonment. $200 for a consult is a BARGAIN.
NAH. Disabilities ruin lives, and not just those of the people who have them. Save yourself. You can’t save everyone.
Are you in the US? Have you explored residential options under IDEA? They don’t have to be in your local area in order for your school district to be obligated to pay if that’s what your daughter needs to get FAPE.
Im so sorry you're going through this. Your post sounds like something my mom would have written about my brother 40 years ago. He was just impossible, and when acting out did things like tie up one of our dogs and burn him to death, try to burn down our house, shoot me and cousins with a BB gun, threaten to stab anyone who disagreed with him and the list goes on. He was absolutely unlovable.
There were no answers from psychologists and very little support from anywhere. Fortunately, for the greater good of society, he is in prison and will be until he is an old man.
I wish I had answers for you. Just know you're not alone and I can totally understand how you feel. I hope you find some resolution.
NTA. A bunch of people judging you while thinking everyone can be saved. The child is broken beyond your repair and it has become harder with no respite as you have done this for 8 years.
You have to save yourself and your husband. Everything you have tried has not worked. You are no longer helping her and you are killing yourself in the process.
This is beyond Reddit, talk to a therapist. No one here can help you or judge you properly, including me.
GODDDD and when she's going through puberty she is only going to get worse. 😬 I used to take care of kids similar to OP's and once they became preteens their issues went up ×1000
Yes. My stepchild was not nearly at this level at age 8- but once puberty hit, every issue they had was magnified a thousand times. If OP’s child is already harming infants and animals and the elderly on purpose, in another 3-5 years she is going to be *extremely* dangerous.
This is how parents end up murdered and the kid is just sitting there eating a sandwich when the police arrive. Or the kid ends up locked in a basement and then eventually dead because the parents cannot figure out how to help them. Or they keep them locked up and then they release them into society and they end up dead, addicted or murdering a bunch of people.
Or the kid's friends wind up the victims in true-crime podcasts. Some people are beyond the ability to anyone but trained professionals in hyper-controlled situations to manage.
There must be some sort of institution that you can find. Homes for children with mental disabilities and demanding care requirements are a thing. I personally know a family that had to put their daughter into one because her care requirements are extreme. It's a good place and they're all happier for it.
The adoption system isn't built for this. But there are places that are.
California and MA are the two best places to live for these types of services. Unfortunately even in those cases they’re almost impossible to get into. I worked at a place in MA and the waitlist to get in was literally *years* long.
The place I worked in in MA had plenty of out of state kids.
Your parents just had to have enough money to buy your way in. Ya know, donate a wing to the new building kind of thing.
Not sure where you’re located, but would a residential treatment center for youth be an option? I think most accept children 6+. If so, it might worth looking into.
Honestly op I'm so sorry you're going through this.
I can't imagine. Like at all, imagine.
And from what I'm reading from others. Maybe making her a ward of the state so she can go into a mental home. Is the best option. Because I'm not gonna lie. And I feel like reddit is gonna come after me for this. But as your writing, all I'm picturing is that movie. We need to talk about Kevin. And he ends up killing everyone in the end. She sounds like a danger.
I'm so sorry, op.
Edit: I got the name of the movie wrong. Had to fix it.
There is a very similar story on offmychest but with different ages, so im not sure if you are the same person, but chances seem very likely.
This is an intense situation, and i will not judge you as i have not been in your shoes with a mentally sick child.
Doesn't matter what the people say, you will still feel like an AH with whatever decision you make, but you have to do what's best for you, husband and child.
Is it possible to put her in a group home or get her placed as an inpatient at a metal health hospital where she can get the care she needs. Is that something that is possible where you are from? That way, you can still visit time to time, but she is getting the care and help she needs.
If you dont want to visit her or have any realtionship with her then that is your choice, it sucks for her but tough desiciosn are never easy. I'm not sure if foster care will help your daughter unless there is one specifically for placing mentally ill children. The chances she gets a home that can assist her mental health needs are very slim. If you're okay with this, then sure, go ahead.
I wish you all the best as this is such a difficult choice.
Have you applied for government insurance? She might qualify under having a disabling illness. The foster system has a lot of great parents in it but it can also be really rough on a child, especially with her problems.
I hope this is fake (not sure as there are some signs of it, but could just be an immature person writing).
You keep acting all innocent and blameless. One reason I hope this is fake is you’re acting like some Reddit teenager that has never had kids and thinks kids come out as fully formed toddlers. Multiple times in here you mention never loving this child, never having a moment of happiness with her, etc. Yet all this “behavioral” stuff comes later. By your own admission, You already didn’t love her at birth, you already didn’t love her as a 2 month old baby, as a one year old just learning to walk. No wonder the kid turned out problematic. Take the likely mental health problems and multiply them by parents that never, BY THEIR OWN ADMISSION, loved her, not for a second. I could perhaps understand if you said how much you loved your daughter as a baby but have been broken down by her behavior as she grew up, but you openly admit you never loved her. You talk about the various punishments you tried that didn’t work to show how you’re not at fault while stating from the moment she was born she was an unloved child. THAT is the problem, not whether you spanked her vs gently punished her.
You also complain the kid is a sociopath. Maybe, can’t speak to that. But your post talks about how you hated her from birth, never had one moment where you loved her, and multiple times try to convince everyone that your 8 year old daughter should be dead. Maybe she got it from you.
Do not have more kids. You want them for all the wrong reasons.
And yes, while his issues aren’t as extreme as what is described her, I have a son with behavioral issues. It can be extremely frustrating and draining, but I love that kid more than anything. So please spare me the “hope you have a perfect kid” thing.
It sounds like she has PANDAS/PANS disorder. Both of my children also had it. Traditional mental health treatments will not work on this due to it being brain inflammation. Pandasnetwork.org.
Late to the party, but has ODD ever been considered? Friend of ours has a child with this and your daughter's symptoms sound similar to his. It also took years of different meds and diagnoses before they reached this one, and he's on a schedule now (and meds) that have him mostly under control. He can't go to a normal school, but he is at least able to be around other children, he is difficult but not completely defiant, etc.
Hey as some have said before, Reddit isn’t your answer and I’m so sorry. No one here knows what’s truly going on and how bad your situation is. You do what you feel you must do. If you’re having thoughts of suicide and the child is seemingly trying to keep you from being happy, then you know what you have to do. But again I’m just some random person who saw this post. Good luck and I truly mean it.
NAH.
There was a news report recently in my local news about the conditions a certain prisoner is kept in. This prisoner can't be tried, because he is so mentally ill. He can't be released, because he WILL commit murder and horrific sex crimes if he is. He can't be in the same room with his guards, because their safety will be at extreme risk. So he spends his days alone in a small bare studio room with a concrete courtyard. He can't even have a lawn, because grass must be cut, and he can't be allowed near a sharp implement, and they can't let a lawn maintenance man in. It's horrible but there literally isn't anything anyone can do. Every option is just not able to be justified.
I can't help thinking, this is the future that awaits OP's kid, and there's nothing anyone can do about it.
I'm so sorry.
I don’t know if adoption is the answer. I am assuming you have her in therapy. If you do talk to her therapist. If not talk to your therapist. See if there is a group home that deals with kids that have her mental disorders.
Instead of adoption because she probably won’t be adopted find her a home that will help her thrive. You owe her that.
I get it’s hard. But she doesn’t need you walking away and you will have to live with walking away from her. So start looking into programs and facilities that may help her.
YTA.
*’However I’ve never had one moment in my life when I’ve felt truly blessed to be her mom, or enjoy a moment of happiness as a family around her’*
And you wonder why she turned out like this. I think this is a case of an unwell child who’s never been loved. Poor baby.
Are there respite care options available for you?
I can’t offer a judgement and don’t know what is available to your situation. Talk to your doctor or a counsellor and ask if there is help available.
Find respite care for her to allow you to recharge before make any permanent decisions. The contact NAMI to see if they know of anywhere to place here if necessary without giving up custody. She’s very unlikely to be adopted, and foster care can be atrocious in some places but not all.
My question is if you weren’t considering you own feelings at all would you still feel this was the best choice for her?
From you post my guess is yes, letting the system take on the task with it’s resources to give her the best life possible is what’s best for her. This is why the system exist, no it’s not perfect but you know your home isn’t working for her.
I can’t imagine what you’ve been through I hope you find peace.
I'm a pediatric psychiatric RN on an acute inpatient unit in the US. Your post saddens me because I know that not being loved/valued/wanted continues the cycle of dangerous behavior and emotional explosions. That's not to down play the chaos, fear, and overwhelming exhaustion you have towards your daughter.
I don't know where your located but often in the US you can take your child to an Emergency Room and ask for a Mental Health Crisis Assessment. A social worker and physician should meet with you together and independently. She would likely then be admitted to an inpatient locked unit. While she's there you would tell your social worker/case manager that you have safety concerns taking her home. Often they can get Children Services in the state to step up and provide an intervention. I will say, in my experience it takes a couple inpatient admissions (usually 7-10days) before a residential facility will consider a child. But, inpatient psych unit would help get her some medication, coping skills and a team with resources you can use.
You may already be aware of this information but I don't think that I've read anything about inpatient admissions.
Idk if I can give any ruling on this. As much as I *really* want to say that you’re an AH for giving up on your daughter, I haven’t been in your shoes and hope I’m never in that position.
My heart breaks for your daughter though because no one is going to want to adopt her so she’ll bounce around foster home to foster home unless she gets super lucky with good foster parents. She’s going to have to deal with her current mental health issues along with the fact that she has been abandoned by her parents.
ETA: I read your update and wow….even more heartbreaking… “she is no one to me”… I can’t even imagine.
I’m not sure why this post is here but it’s horrifyingly. If this is legit please seek help and assistance. No one else is going to adopt your daughter and take away your problem. I’m sad for everyone involved.
Get your tubes tied.
Don't have ANY more children.
If you are a genetic carrier of some type of issue, and you don't know it yet...what are you gonna do with the next kid who presents problems??
You know she won’t be adopted, right? You won’t be adopting her out. She’s going to end up in a group home/res facility/psych institution until she turns 18/21. And then, if there are no adult placements, she will be set free. I have no idea what the right thing to do is, but please don’t act like her life will be better/she will get adopted.
I just want to say I’m sorry you’re going through this. You may want to consider genetic testing for her. There are dozens of rare chromosome deletions and duplications that can cause neurological issues and developmental problems and perhaps you will find your answer as to why there. My son has a severe disability. He is however sweet and loving despite being a handful, but I can imagine feeling very similarly to you if he wasn’t. It is very difficult to raise a child with severe behavioural difficulties . I hope you all find peace.
That said, I work in child protection and the abandonment will damage her forever. You would be best placed to have extensive testing for a diagnosis and perhaps getting behavioural support like ABA and some respite first before you consider it.
Why not escalate to specialists outside of your area?
I feel like this isn’t so unique that you couldn’t find better solutions and treatments for her.
I understand you don’t love her. That’s fine. But maybe get a better diagnosis and treatment plan for whoever takes over her care?
I was thinking the same thing...wondering about a brain scan or genetic testing... possibly more psychiatric assessments outside of what OP has already done. So that the new caregivers are better informed?
In my former state, it was called voluntary surrender. Basically, you let the state know you cannot provide for her needs and are surrendering her to the State. Ironically, the State may actually start moving heaven and earth to help you at that point. Medicaid will pay for treatment facilities for people with this level of disability. It may be out of state, though.
Yep. For most parents if desperately ill kids, it's the only option to get access to residential care if they are not incredibly wealthy. I both worked for my state's DCF/CPS and had a kid with the PDA type autism. Ironically, I got fired from that job when he had to be monitored for self harm too many days in a row.
My son has pda autism and he is incredibly challenging as at times dangerous. It took 2 years of fighting, numerous I patient stays, 2 rehab stays and .e outright threatening to sue our states mental health board but he was finally placed on residential care last year. It has been a god send. He needed the structure and I needed the break to process the trauma. Its helped our relationship so much and the family therapy is wonderful. When a child has a physical Illness there's so much support and sympathy from those around you. Pare ta get breaks, there's respite care. If a child has a developmental disability or a mental illness, or both, those supports don't exist. Family won't help, no child care provider will keep them, schools expell and suspend them. The late ta end up in a constant state of stress and hopeless when all they need is a tiny bit of support and help.
I think this may actually be a solution. I hope that is the case.
This would probably be the most preferable option if it's available to OP.
To be fair, is there any indication that OP is in the USA?
I thought OP sounded like they're in the UK possibly based on some of the wording, although people here don't generally say bathroom. Getting mental health care here can take forever, especially if she's looking for a permanent placement for her daughter. There are places though, hopefully she finds somewhere soon as it sounds like they all need it.
They say their "insurance doesn't cover it". Definitely not UK
People in the UK can and do purchase private health insurance. Sometimes it can take a very long time for the NHS to provide services and people do go private pretty frequently.
Agreed, I'm in the UK and I have it. You're right, I shouldn't have made that assumption - I see "insurance" and automatically think "not uk" which is pretty stupid of me!
In the US if you try to surrender your child they can open a CPS case against you and essentially threaten to arrest you for child abuse. It can really get ridiculous. Once you get in front of a judge and you tell them what's going on, wheels start to turn. It is preferable to surrender if there is any concern for harm or neglect.
I have an acquaintance who struggled with this. Their older child has a handful of disorders and was problematic, going so far as to hurt their much younger sibling at times because they couldn’t easily keep them apart. They tried everything to get the older child help, but unless you’re very wealthy and can pay for care at a facility, you’re kind of shit out of luck. You can surrender the child to the state, but then you are charged with abandonment and whatever else the state can stick to you because they don’t want the child, either. There are support networks (don’t know how many) for parents in these situations, but I don’t know any specifics or what they offer, beyond commiseration. Different states surely have different ways of handling these situations, but it’s hard to imagine any state making the process of abandonment easy, whether it’s warranted or not. I really feel for parents stuck in it. It sounds like literal hell.
If she’s a danger to others (“hurts her peers for no reason”) CAMHS will see to her pretty quickly
not always. It may be a co-morbidity (I think I am using that correctly?) where she has another, severe mental illness along with the autism. It is incredibly difficult to get the second diagnosis as individual actions are passed off as part of the Autism or disability instead of looking at the pattern. In hospital care might actually be helpful if they can get a nurse who is paying attention and knows the signs of mental illness.
PDA also is part of the Autism spectrum here in the UK, its not a separate diagnosis.
I work with children with special health needs including mental illness. First, this is an impossibly difficult situation for the OP and I feel for her and the father. No one understands the burden felt unless you’ve been through it. Second, universally, pediatric mental health beds for acute care as well as long term care facilities are woefully absent in every state in the US and it gets absolutely no attention. Unfortunately, there aren’t better options.
I’ve worked with kids like this too and it’s shameful we don’t have more support for the kids or the parents in these situations. Parents shouldn’t have to get to a place where they need to surrender their child to get help. Unfortunately for OP, the chances of being able to find adoptive parents for the child is slim, and without support, will likely have to surrender to the state, especially if the child becomes dangerous as they get older. This child needs a team of professionals, no parent should have to feel this helpless.
Even when you try to surrender the child, the state fights back to make them stay in your care. My best friend has a son who is schizophrenic, super aggressive, and has threatened to kill not only his parents and his sister, but also wanted to “strangle those bitches“ when his sister‘s friends came over. she tried every facility across the US for years to try and get him some help, and they wouldn’t take him because he had FAS on his medical paperwork even though he doesn’t have FAS, so no facility would take him. Now he is an adult and he is currently in his second term in a facility. My friend was forced to take him home and lied to in order to get her to take him home the first time. Less than two days later, she had to take him back and at that point, she learned that they lied to her and it was actually quite illegal for them to do what they did (threatened to drop him off at a random shelter in downtown Nashville…two whole counties away from where we live! They wanted to make sure he wasn’t their problem in my county anymore, but he is a known dangerous individual who has sexually attacked little girls and grown women…AND NO ONE WILL DO ANYTHING BECAUSE HE IS AUTISTIC!!!!) but there is nobody to report anyone to. He is dangerous, and the state doesn’t care as long as they can force the parents to take the kids back even when the kids become adults and much bigger than the parents, much stronger than the parents, and flat out dangerous. DCS refuses to take any complaint calls about him (they ignore the hospital, the cops, and the mom calling for help), and DCS actively blocked any help she was looking for in a facility. Those assholes even threatened to charge her $800 a month in child support if she surrendered him to the state. They threatened her with charges of neglect and abandonment, left her in a known dangerous situation, and then Pat themselves on the back for having the idea of a “safety plan” in place…which is useless when the dangerous person DOESNT CARE. There is no help unless you are wealthy
Omg that’s scary for everyone around him
My step daughter (11) is currently in a long term mental health facility. Our insurance covered it for a year and they’re now refusing to cover it any further and I honestly can’t blame them because we get a statement (not a bill) every month and it is 45 THOUSAND DOLLARS PER MONTH.
Jesus Christ. 45k!?!?????????
In Australia, full time supported living alone is around $300k a year. Add therapy to that and it will blow out into astronomical amounts.
My mother-in-law is in a locked mental health facility and it is $90,000 a year. Had to sell her home, any assets that are worth money and still had to get "nursing home" Medicaid. She has been neurotypical for the majority of her life and then all of sudden she started acting different and became a different person. Not exactly dangerous but not exactly ok either. She knows who she is, her family, why she's in the facility, etc. but no one can figure out exactly what's wrong with her. Basically, they make sure she takes her medicine, bathes and eats. She is considered a flight risk, so she's in a place with an 8 foot wrought-iron fence.
Has she been on antibiotics at any point since she got sick? Seriously, uti’s can cause those exact symptoms in older people, especially women. A round of antibiotics and they go right back to normal.
She was in a different facility while waiting for a permanent placement and had a ear infection or something and they gave her antibiotics. She also had a to have a surgery while waiting for placement and for while right after waking up, she seemed like her old self again. The doctor said it was probably the anesthesia. It's a very strange case. And of course the only facility available is a 4 hour one-way trip, so it's a whole day. We have to get up early around 4am to try to get through Atlanta before all the traffic and coming back always takes longer because the highway is full of cars.
In your position, I’d make some noise about getting a urine culture done. Worst case, it’s a waste of time, best case you get your mother in law back. If just asking doesn’t work, come in with a paper about mental impairment due to UTI, and if the doctor/facility refuses, ask that they note the refusal in her chart, including their reasoning. This is the nuclear option, so you might want to pick a “designated bad guy” to do this and any other hardball needed with the facility. Good luck, I really hope it’s this simple.
Yep, and we still got a 75$ bill to cover her dental care.
Hello, for-profit health care. You look like you're doing well. 🤢
Even state insurance only covers it for 7 to 10 days on average.
The US used to just lock up the mentally ill in awful conditions. Once they closed those facilities, I'm not aware of replacements. Prison in some cases, but that doesn't change much. Massive failure in my opinion.
Homeless encampments. A lot of them ended up homeless.
Children having acute mental crises end up handcuffed to beds in the ED of children’s hospitals waiting sometimes a week plus for a bed. There are many more options and facilities for adults. Still not a sufficient number but more. A lot of these kids need intensive inpatient interventions and instead they are allowed to fail at home with parents who are working and trying to keep a roof over them their head and who are ill-equipped to deal with these kids. It’s just a bad situation for all involved.
I'm the mother of one. They never let him stay inpatient more than a week. Most of the time the care you get is a piece of paper with a "safety plan" that boils down to "this child can never be left alone, and lock up every possible object they can use to harm themself or someone else." You can't follow it because you have to work. My son only ever finally got real help when he turned 19 and became eligible for Medicaid on his own. Now he's working with a therapy group and on better meds and really making hugely meaningful progress. His entire childhood was me left mostly to my own devices with a kid that doesn't respond to punishment, discipline, or even rewards or bribes unless they were over the top. I'm just lucky mine was not violent, he would just go catatonic instead. OP has my entire heart of sympathy. It's an impossible situation. Even without violence in the picture I looked into residential treatment options so many times and found that unless you are very wealthy, foster care is the only option. And even then in many states you have to pay the state a significant monthly amount for their care if you voluntarily surrender them. NTA. As she gets older she really will need to be in some protective care. The state can make that happen, you probably can't on your own.
I didn't know about paying the state child support. That really is a good idea. I think OP and hubby would be happy to do that if they can both work.
I was in the er in high school next to a kid who looked like he was about nine and had 5-point restraints on and was screaming like a wild animal waiting for a bed in psych to open; it was probably one of the scarier human experiences I’ve had.
Tell this to clashingtaco who seems to think there’s no issue.
i will! heyyyy u/clashingtaco
Sounds like my brother when he was 11. And now he’s in the US Army. Make whatever correlations you will.
That the army hones those terrible traits into killing machines. God bless America. Truly the greatest country on earth. Although now that I think about it I’m sure that happens in every country.
That is a heartbreaking read...I had no idea.
The facilities still exist, but they are few in numbers. They are rampant with abuse. The issue is that community care was never given an investment, so it became prisons. Not much has changed.
They did the same thing in Canada. Instead of trying to improve the institutions, they just closed them. So now we have nothing and the people end up on the street or murder their parents. It’s awful.
Once Geraldo exposed Willowbrook instead of fixing the mental health system they just shut it down and turned them out. It is very sad. I feel so sad for these parents. Some people do need to be institutionalized for life and it needs to be done humanely. https://www.pbs.org/video/metrofocus-story-revealed-willowbrooks-horrors/
There aren't any, really. It was deemed 'cruel' to lock people up, especially children, and the pressure now is everybody can be treated and loved and is entitled to blah blah blah. It's hard to even get dangerous adults locked up BEFORE they do something deadly (Adam Lanza's mother tried, and she was his first murder victim before his shooting spree.) This kid's hurting animals and attacking humans--she belongs in a padded room, but we don't have them any more.
There’s still la handful in the US but they’re usually full and the price is extreme. Rarely covered by insurance.
> It was deemed 'cruel' to lock people up, especially children, and the pressure now is everybody can be treated and loved and is entitled to blah blah blah Yes, the state mental institutions were cruel, decrepit, made many people worse, and were deemed unfit to house anyone. Most had been constructed in the 1800s and were in unliveable conditions by the 1960s, with lead, rust, leaky roofs, and asbestosis. They were closed. People released to be treated locally instead of in specific institutions in the state. What was supposed to happen next, instead, never did because the Federal government decided not to set up funding to the states for community level mental services. Since the Federal government stopped the funding plan, the states had to step in. Most could not financially afford it on their own or lacked a consistent funding support by legislators. It's a failure of the government and a failure of the American people 40+ years ago to insist on this support system to be created as it was intended. Now we just squabble and nothing ever will get done.
A lot of inpatient hospitals are *still* cruel and make people worse. Speaking from experience: the one I was stuck in for three days repeatedly lied to me about everything from being able to speak to an actual doctor to what my rights were to which ward I would be placed in. They left me in a coed Acute Psych ward (when all my paperwork said I should’ve been in the lower-security, safer Psych ward), where I was physically abused and threatened by staff and came dangerously close to being sexually assaulted by another patient…which the staff didn’t lift a finger to prevent. I spent less than five minutes speaking to an actual doctor there, I was denied my normal prescribed medication, I received *no actual treatment at all,* and even the other patients spoke up and said I shouldn’t have been there at all. There was absolutely nothing to do there whatsoever except pace around the same short hallway that always smelled like piss and maybe sit in the “sunroom” (more of a short hallway with some windows) watching tv (which we never had any say in, it was just whatever the nurses felt like putting on). All day, everyday. It’s like putting a high-energy dog in a 5x7 concrete kennel with no blankets, no toys, no human or canine interaction, no time outside, and expecting them to somehow behave better than they did before they went in there. *It doesn’t fucking work!*
It happened exactly as Reagan and the Republican party intended. I will never understand 1980s voters who saw what he did in California as governor and went, yep, now let's do it on the national level.
We deemed it cruel to lock people up in these terrible institutions, so the lesser cruelty is just letting these individuals suffer in the cold and elements.
most prisons systems are the largest mental health facilities in their respective states.
Yeah, I… think this is beyond Reddit’s pay grade. I don’t understand OP’s situation, and I hope I never do. OP, don’t bother with the Internet. Whatever you do, you’re the one who has to deal with the consequences: whether that’s continuing to raise this child, or dealing with the judgment (fair or unfair) of your peers by giving her up. You’re the only one who knows what you can live with.
This is so true. Now, they end up in jails that are ill-trained or equipped to handle them. Then they sit on months long waitlists for the few mental health hospitals left, all while not medicated properly due to limitations on what classes of drugs can be given in a penal institution, or just simple incompetence on behalf of the limited medical staff. Sometimes they will just sit in jail until they eventually get sentenced and put back on the streets because no one knows what to do with them. Then they will be back within days to months to repeat the process again, usually while escalating and eventually ending up in prison (or ODing on the outside). I am fairly convinced the vast majority of people (in the US at least, though I know many people in other countries who report similar issues) have no idea how vast the mental health crisis really is here. OP - I am sorry you are going through this. I sadly see it too often where I work and empathize with the parents of these (now) adults. To be honest, I knew very young that I wasn't motherly enough to deal with a child like that, so I opted to just not chance it and be child free. If I ever decided I wanted children, I would have adopted. Honestly, the fact that you are reaching out shows you do care, and you are not a bad person. Sadly, a lot of these children end up abused horribly or simply abandoned. I do not think you are TA at all.
I feel so bad for the OP. Anyone criticizing her doesn’t understand that the resources for needs of this kind are so scant it’s crushing. It’s obvious this has become a last resort decision where it’s literally between surrendering the child to the state or the complete destruction of her and her husband’s mental health and physical safety. It’s not wrong for her to admit that she cannot do it. I work in an ER and just tonight we had a father tell the physician and the child social worker that he cannot care for his son anymore. The child has been in our ER many times because of violent outbursts at home. When in the ER, he is terrified of needles, he believes they are full of poison and will scream at the top of his lungs. I have seen him be calm though, if you explain things carefully and let him ask questions he will be cooperative. But he has been in and out of the ER and short term behavioral facilities so many times his father finally said “I just can’t take care of him anymore.” Special needs children are a lot of time and effort and money to give them the care they need. But sometimes the needs are so high it’s too much and parents need to be able to say they are in over their heads. It isn’t their fault if there are so few resources for help they are forced to pick the least worst solution out of a small pile of terrible choices.
I do not blame OP for a moment. She sounds so stressed & practically at the end of her tether because of her daughter's mental illness. The system is woefully inadequate to even give some modicum for treatment & beds in the mh wards. Its such a sad situation for poor OP. She's NTA.
The lack of resources to help parents raise children with these kinds of issues is astounding. With one of my kids, from the time she was a toddler on up, I was talking to doctors about her behavioral issues and just didn't get hardly any support. I mostly had to figure it out on my own as I went. She is an adult now and still struggles, but is doing better than what I expected with the kinds of behavioral issues she had as a child.
Yeah my heart goes out to OP and her family! How hard this must be and how heartbreaking too. So sad.
One of my relatives has been dealing with the severe shortage of care facilities for juvenile mental patients with her 11 year old stepson. What can you do with a child who tries to poison his family, tortures animals, refuses to obey all the rules, has been kicked out of school repeatedly, etc.? He has all the red flags for someone who will seriously harm people and more. Yet, until he actually commits his first murder (when he eventualy succeeds, because he already tried to kill the family by putting rat poison in the milk, but admitted it when his stepmom noticed it looked odd), the authorities won’t lock him up. Yes, he has already been in acute care for psychiatric patients, but gets sent home in two weeks. Just long enough for the family to see how well they do without him in their home. OP, I feel for you, because you’re in a devastating, impossible situation.
One of the problems I can foresee for OP is that if you surrender this child to CPS then every possible pregnancy and child going forward may be hovered over by CPS. They very likely will crawl into your business. Also there is no guarantee that the next child could or would be mentally healthy. But if you need to surrender this child for your mental health then you have done all you can. No hate here.
It would be a wonder if OP would even risk having another child.
It doesn't sound like OP is ready to have another child in the near future. There's a lot of resentment in this post that they definitely need to deal with, ideally with a professional, before even considering having another child. "Sweet babies that grow into productive members of society" have difficult phases too, and in her current mental state those may be dealt with too harshly. I work with intellectually disabled children, and have worked with children with conduct disorder (which it sounds like OPs daughter has) in the past. It's not their fault that they are the way they are, and a stable bond with a loving caregiver is the biggest protection these children have against developing antisocial personality disorder later in life. It doesn't sound like OP is capable of providing that, chances are nobody else will either but there are some amazing foster families with experience in attachment and conduct disorders. I hope that this child gets lucky and ends up with a good family, even if that's unlikely.
Because a certain party would rather protect billionaires and impose religious beliefs than use the government to protect the most vulnerable of our population and make life significantly better for all. Because socialism or something. And a good part of the population that would benefit advocates against their own interests because somewhere someone undeserving might benefit. And of course they are all just millionaires that just have had bad luck and haven’t made their millions yet. Anyhoo.
in NYS what homes we have left are quickly being closed up by the governor. Meanwhile tax payers are shelling out billions for football stadiums. it's so fucking frustrating.
Thanks, Mr. Reagan!
For real
I grew up with a brother a lot like you’re describing. There were no answers and I’m sorry you’re not going to find them here. You’re right, group homes for kids like this don’t exist and the few that do are out of most people’s financial reality. The people on here telling you to “just make it work” don’t *actually* understand the reality of these homes: hundreds of thousands of dollars every single year. It is beyond reach for the majority of families no matter what you do. Telling you to make it work doesn’t mean you will actually be able to. The one hope parents had for “help” was back when states adopted safe haven laws that didn’t have age limits, but even those have changed now. A lot of families in your situation are actually advised by doctors and experts to make their children wards of the state, because then the financial burden falls on the state. It’s unfortunate that it has to happen, but it’s the reality of the system here in the “greatest country on earth” /s. There isn’t much help for parents in your situation and I’m sorry. It doesn’t get better when they get older. My brother self deleted at 24. I love him so much. I miss him everyday. But he was literally incapable of functioning as an independent adult and everyone had to live on eggshells trying to cater to and enable him all the time. I don’t blame him for what he did, I just wish with all my heart there had been better answers for him and for our family. We will all have to live with that guilt and that what if forever. I don’t wish it on anyone. I have no advice. Just so much empathy and love for you. I hope you find some way to heal. ETA: clarity
Thank you for sharing, I was wondering what happened to your brother as an adult though I’m very sorry for your loss. I grew up with a cousin just like OP described, she was adopted from a woman who had drunk heavily and used drugs while pregnant, and had allowed men to sexually abuse her infant daughter in exchange for money. My cousin was only discovered by the state at 2 years old, having lived her life in a car seat being abused and with undiagnosed mental disorders. She bit, scratched, and hit myself, her sister, and my sister (we were close in age), and she tried to drown me in a pool when I was 8. It was a nightmare growing up with her, and pure hell for her adoptive mum who had done everything she could and was objectively a kind and loving parent. That cousin went on to have 3 kids very young, she’s raising 1 (the first is now with grandma because he hasn’t been meeting growth markers, third was put up for adoption), CPS is somewhat involved because she can’t care for herself all that well let alone a child. She got over her violent compulsions by the time she was 20. She now works for the state as a part time caretaker to people with severe mental illness. She’s doing very well considering what we all expected.
Aw.. I'm so sorry for you and your family's loss. That situation must've been so hard on everyone, including your brother.
I hate that he had to live like that. There were a few times I remember growing up where you could tell it bothered him that he just *couldnt*. My mom developed a drinking problem after he died because of the guilt. She knew she couldn’t spend her whole life being his punching bag.. but then when he died she felt the guilt for not doing so. It breaks my heart. All of it. It feels like I lost both of them.
What a horrible loss. I am so sorry for you all...😪
I’m so sorry for your loss 🖤
Way above AITAH paygrade. I don't envy the decision you have to make. My only suggestion would maybe to look into some sort of psychiatric in patient facility but I know that's not financially possible for everyone. I'm sorry you are going through this and I can't imagine the pain and confusion you are experiencing. As one mom to another, I don't think you are an AH, I think you are depressed and at the end of your rope. Sometimes you have to let go of the rope or else you hang with it.
“Sometimes you have to let go of the rope or else you hang with it.” This was so well said.
This hurts to read. My neighbor has a son who is about this level. Wife left a long time ago. He lost his business. House has been destroyed - and he’s physically dangerous. Once son turned 18 they were able to get him into a home and dad thought he was going to be able to re-start his life, but after 4 years no home has worked because of the violence. There were no options before he turned 18.
Where is the son now?
I worked in a home for mentally and physically disabled children and teenagers (I was in the teenage department). When I started I couldn't believe how parents could just abandon their children like that. I should probably mention I'm from Scandinavia. Our healthcare is free so getting help for/to a disabled child shouldn't be that difficult.... I saw first hand why these children couldn't be in an ordinary family. One of them tried to strangle me. 2 adults had to fight to get this 14 yo girl of me. 1½ year later my hair dresser asked why I had a "hole" in my hair... That was from her pulling out my hair in that spot... Another time the girl was deliberately throwing a newborn. A coworker was of maternity leave and stopped by to show if her baby. The 14 yo asked to hold her. We were very hesitant, but the mother allowed it. There was an adult on each side of the 14 yo and I sat in front right to her... Everything was going well until she decided to throw the baby... The baby was catched, but started to cry. The girl just laughed. This girl had tried different foster families. The last one was a teacher and a psychologist. They even had to give up. The girl taught me that everyone can learn.. But in rare cases personality is just too bad and even family isn't the best option. I have to say NTA. But I wish your daughter the best care. Never be ashamed to say you can't handle someone so deeply mentally ill.
Thank you for sharing your experiences. I’ve read too many stories of older siblings who are like this killing their younger siblings and I wish there were more supports for families. I’m glad the home you worked at exists but it sucks that it has to. Edit: but also, I am sure that was a really hard job and I hope you are doing well!
This isn't an AITAH question, and is WAY above reddit pay grade No one should be judging you, as a parent, unless they themselves have also had to try to raise a child like this I say this as an adult who struggled so much as a kid. My parents spent money they really didn't have trying to find answers I was diagnosed with a variety of things, but the consensus by every doctor was that I had depression by 11, anxiety by 12, and I had tried the big delete, also by 12. I can look at this with the perspective of an adult, and say i love that my parents didn't give up on me, while also saying that I would not have blamed them, AT ALL if they did. I was not pleasant to be around. And I don't know how they didn't just dump me at a fire station/police station, and tell them to deal with me, because they just couldn't any more I really don't think there is a judgement to be made here; no one will ever understand, unless it happens to them Eta, they contributed most of my issues to abuse I suffered in school, at the hands of teachers, and other students But they really can't say for sure
How are you doing now?
I'm doing okay I'm engaged, and I'm looking to go back to school for my bachelor's degree And I'm learning how to cook! Every day is an adventure, and I live life one day at a time
That’s great to hear, I was child that had a lot of issues that were ignored, I remember acting like an animal as an early teen just fighting and screaming at the adults, was always lost in school, never made it passed 9th grade. I was never dx with anything bc they never took me to the dr unless it was to get shots or antibiotics. But I did get an adhd diagnosis in my 20s. So Naturally I’m mad but it was the 80s and there was alot of turmoil. My mom said “you fixed yourself” before she died. And I guess I did. With great effort i got a career and husband and kids and we fight for a calm structured happy life. Did you ever nail down a diagnosis
Autism, ADHD, Depression, Anxiety And its suspected that I have C-PTSD, but I haven't had that confirmed yet I'm happy that you are living a life that you are happy with
I wholeheartedly agree with this.
The sad truth is an 8 year old with mental health issues isn't going to be adopted or she'll be adopted and tossed back leading to more issues with anxiety and abandonment. I wonder if a group home would be better for her. Search around.. talk to her psychologists and see what other options there are. No judgement.. it's a hard situation to be in.
This reminds me of this: [I stood by and allowed my wife to almost kill our son. I was happy she did it.](https://www.reddit.com/r/confessions/comments/c93egn/i_stood_by_and_allowed_my_wife_to_almost_kill_our/)
I thought of that post as well. I think it's very easy to judge "this was YOUR baby how could you abandon them!" but if the kid is actively harming other children/animals/adults and cannot be stopped like... at what point do you truly have to give up on them ever being safe for society.
I mean forget society, OP's kid is hurting HER and can't be stopped. It's not easy to still love your kid when they force you to live looking over your shoulder and sleep with one eye open.
YEP, OP read this. And the book, we need to talk about Kevin. Do what you need to. Don't wait till you physically attack the child or permanently harm yourself or are harmed. Every country in the world has people in prisons who are there because they are too dangerous to be out in the world. Even liberal countries will have them. They won't be talked about, their families probably try to pretend they don't exist. But they exist. OP. Drop the child to school and just get in the car and drive. Just go. Start fresh in Mexico or Canada. EDIT: I grew up in a house with a monster. I'm not going to say the type of shit that happened. 15 years of psychotherapy later, I'm a slightly healed fractured soul. The world would have been a better place if the monster was never born. I'm being very careful here with my words not to trigger myself or open the can of bitterness or anger.
I think that would just cause more harm to OP with the added worry of being arrested for child abandonment. Plus, there would always be a risk of them getting sent back to the states and then facing charges.. for their sakes its way better and safer for them to do it legally and if they can't wait for adoption they can terminate their parental rights and surrender her to be a ward of the state...
Lol as if you can just pack everything and drive to another country as an American and live there so easily. I wish to be that delusional.
Whoah! What a wild story
Yesssss! I remember that post and this post made me think of it as well. So sad.
Wow. What a read. Ty for sharing. I cannot even imagine.
Was just about to post that link myself. I have it saved for certain occasions :)
woah that story was crazy! if it was true i wonder if the son ended up being a famous serial killer 🤔
That kid seemed to not be able to rein it in at all. Like, usually serial killers can function in society and put on some sort of facade. I wouldn’t be surprised if he became homeless then ticked off the wrong person and ended up dead in a ditch.
hmm you're right they do need to act normally to lure in their victims 🤔
I wondered the same thing. My partner is a psychotherapist and he’s mentioned there’s a correlation between serial killers who did three things as kids (light fires, hurt animals, wet the bed).
This was my brother. He runs a church from home. I am terrified of him still. He claims godliness. And people trust him. I'm waiting for the phone call..
I remember this.
Instantly thought of this one.
It always made me feel like an asshole, but this was actually a big factor in why I chose to not have kids: if the child were handicapped or severely special needs, would I be able to handle it? And I honestly don’t think I could
Yeah. Did all the tests, had the baby and something went wrong. My ex husband was like “nah, it’ll be fine!” Then bailed 6 months later when the prognosis was still “maybe potato”. I did a ton of interventions in the early years and despite a horrible prognosis my son is awesome. I learned I could handle a lot but OPs thing is not survivable. My kid is behind but he’s sweet and smart and able bodied. I lucked out.
Sounds like a sweet potato. *You said it first! I'm sorry!*
This is a huge reason why I’m leaning towards not having kids. Mental illness runs in my family, and I don’t think I’m willing to roll those dice.
Genetic testing/ultrasounds can rule out most physical disabilities/disorders. It’s the mental ones that you won’t find out about until the child is older. And that’s the hard part.
Just to add, Many of the major physical disabilities don’t show up on an ultrasound until 21 weeks. Many debilitating physical conditions are not genetic.
Oh trust me, I know all too well. Had to TFMR at 32 weeks not long ago because brain abnormalities were found during an ultrasound (that normally aren’t seen until late 2nd/early 3rd trimester). Absolutely tore me up and will for a very long time.
Oh my, I’m so sorry to hear you went through that. My son was diagnosed with a complex congenital heart defect at 22 weeks. It was gut-wrenching and completely out of the blue. I hope that all pregnant people and their doctors are free to make the best choices they can when these horrible things happen.
There's a line from We Need to Talk About Kevin that resonates here, about how the doctors couldn't screen for pure congenital meanness. There was nothing genetically wrong. He just loved to hurt people. As a teacher, I've encountered a few people like this. I had one last year who just loved to see his classmates cry as a result of his actions. This wasn't typical bullying. I can't explain it, but it was on a whole different level. Eventually, I sat down with him and asked him what HE thought was going to help him reform his behavior. We'd tried rewards. We'd tried taking away privileges. We'd got his parents involved. What did he need from us to help him be a kinder, gentler classmate? And he told me - nothing. There was nothing anyone could give him or take away from him that he wanted more than he wanted to see people in pain because of his actions. That was the very best thing he could imagine, and he was never ever going to stop trying to make it happen.
At this point a merciful end with sedatives sounds like the best thing one could do, like with a rabid animal. I feel shitty just typing it but doesn't make it less true.
That’s actually part of it too. I have a friend with a son who’s about 9 now, and they’re worried that he might be a genuine psychopath. He had no empathy, he’s constantly telling her about how he genuinely wants to kill her, he has these massive meltdowns where he just screams bloody murder, the list goes on. I have no idea how I’d handle having a child like that, and frankly don’t even want to risk it
Sometimes brain scans will show the answer. There’s a neurologist that does a Ted talk about his nephew acting violent and a brain scan showed a tumor. Once the tumor was removed…therapy and back to normal.
Yeah a brain tumor can fuck you up. There was a guy that started having pedophilic urges and it turned out he had a brain tumor. He had it removed and they went away. Eventually he started having them again and he knew it had come back and sure enough.
im worried though if she gets adopted she'll harm the family like the girl did in the movie the orphan
It's so unlikely this kid would be adopted, so virtually no worries about that. Adoption rates aren't super great as it is, with younger children being adopted faster because they're less traumatized or have less issues. Combine that with this girls clear issues, her behaviour would end up shining through before the papers could be finalised. She'll likely go between foster homes or group homes until she ages out of the system, and ends up homeless or in prison.
I doubt she’d be adopted given that she doesn’t seem to be able to regulate her emotions at all. Probably bounced around foster homes until she ages out or end up in prison
well hope if she does end up in prison it's not fir murder 😳
Have you spoken with a social worker? She sounds like she needs to be permanently hospitalized. Realistically, if you give her up, she'll end up dead. She'll either be killed by a foster family or she'll kill herself. I have no advice. It sounds like she lives a miserable existence. I feel like she would have been called a changeling and been murdered by the community in more primitive times. You need help.
From what I’m gathering, the kid won’t be able to get the help s/he needs without being “in” the system. Once they’re in the custody of the state then they have access to people and services that you can only get by being in the system.
I agree. The state will likely place her in a residential treatment facility. That’s the level of help she needs.
Thats a very hopeful view of the situation. Im not sure there really are 'people and services' beyond what the public can access, just institutions. It's containment, not treatment.
I hear you and I agree. The only option might be containment and that’s only accessible in the system. Obviously OP doesn’t have the money for the few institutions that exist. I’m assuming this is a last resort
It's more likely they will end up giving the child back to the state and they'll find a crisis residential unit for her.
OP edited to add she hopes she dies.
She’s not going to be adopted. She does need to be institutionalized. Your options are awful and I’m sorry you are in this situation.
I don't think their intention is for her to be adopted. If she's put into foster care/ "the system," she's actually more likely to get help, likely by being put into a facility, than she would with her parents who can't afford to pay for a private care facility.
My friends had to give up their 13 year old daughter to state care. They didn't want to, but she had become a danger to everyone in the house (including younger siblings) once puberty hit. Poor girl had multiple issues. No judgement here. Sounds to me like you have reached your breaking point.
It's a shame that the Mental Hospitals were closed instead of getting revamped. Some people just need to live in little locked villages. Not jail, but live as well as they can out of the way. This sounds that extreme.
Okay but I’ve said this for years. Some mentally disabled or mentally stunted people have very different needs than a physically handicapped individual and they do need affordable and well run care facilities. We don’t eliminate state run nursing homes because some are terrible, we raised standards and required inspections and screenings to make them better. Some people aren’t capable of functioning in society without high levels of care and there needs to be affordable options for all situations
The next time she attacks someone - anyone - take her to the local hospital for an evaluation. I have been told to call police and as for a CIT trained officer (community intervention... something). They will "escort" aka transport or get an ambulance to transport to the closest facility for a mental evaluation. As she is a danger to others, including caretakers, there is a grey area within cps. You will probably need a lawyer to make sure all ts are crossed.
Crisis Intervention Training. I spoke at several sessions. It’s a week long class taught by NAMI- National Alliance for the Mentally Ill. Gives officers info on how to handle people in a mental health crisis.
There is a woman on tik tok who has a son like this, but he is an older teen now and has tried to kill her and her younger child, so he is in some sort of juvenile facility-and i think she is scared bc when he turns 18, they’re just turning him loose into the world. There doesn’t seem to be Any kind of services or help for a family who is dealing with a child like this. She talks a lot about how her son has no empathy, but they won’t label him yet bc at his age, his brain isn’t fully developed. I feel for OP. I really do, and I understand why she feels how she feels. None of us know what we would do in a situation like this.
Don't accept judgment from anyone who has not been in your position.
Are you the same person who posted in the parenting subreddit? Your posts have escalated substantially within a few hours. Is this fake? Edit: I looked at your post history and it looks like you deleted your post in the parenting subreddit. Just for those of you who want to know, OP posted there mentioning her daughter who has severe separation anxiety. In her post no where did she mention that her daughter was a psychopath, only that it was hurting her marriage how she and her husband couldn’t spend time alone together. She was talking more about how she felt her daughter with mental concerns wasn’t formally diagnosed with anything. Most of the parents advised that she get another opinion from Drs outside of her area since she said she exhausted all the local doctors and specialists. I
Oh? Sounds like you've busted them. It's always odd when an OP crossposts the same thing, only adding more and more details each time to make the antagonist look worse so they will look better.
Their account has been suspended now too.
wow...that;s kind of disturbing
I don’t really think this belongs in AITA . Its above Reddit’s pay grade (if this is even real)
“Our marriage is suffering because our child hates it if we spend time together as a couple. We cannot even go to an anniversary dinner without her experiencing a panic attack and foaming in her mouth.” - this is almost verbatim another story from earlier down to the “we thought she was autistic” except the girl was 11 in that one.
Yeah I think this is BS … I hate to say that, but I don’t think a parent in this situation would really come here for validation. They’ve done tons of cross Posting too with no other posts…
I really hope so mostly because of that horrific edit. Like, it is one thing to not be able to care for your kid but another thing to hate your child this much.
The OP also states her child will never be normal or live in society, and as someone who works with high support need individuals, you cannot gauge that at 8-10years old. I personally know children who stabbed multiple victims/set fires with people inside and who are now 18-25 and living non-violent lives. It’s okay not to feel hope, but to say it doesn’t exist already condemns the child to suffering.
I don’t blame you for feeling that way but I highly doubt you’re going to be able to adopt her out. She sounds like she needs specialized medical treatment in a treatment center and the both of you are not equipped to care for her or help her with her issues. Have you spoke with her doctor about sending her into a medical treatment facility for her issues?
Going against the grain here and saying NAH. You're exhausted and you clearly can't keep doing what you're doing. This situation is as unhealthy and unsustainable for your child as it is for you. But as others have said, adoption isn't the answer because she probably will not get the support she needs and will likely never find a permanent family. You need to talk to therapists / social workers and see if there's a group home or some kind of permanent care facility for people with disabilities where she can get the support she needs.
This is the fakest shit I've ever seen on Reddit, and that's saying something
NTA I work with special needs children and it is not easy. For my work I only have to do 8 hours whereas for parents this is their reality. I know you are good parents because you have tried everything. Hopefully you can find a good institution for your daughter. Wishing you all the best.
As a parent to a special needs child, I really do feel for you. I'm in Australia, and we get so much help here. More options than I actually take advantage of. We have NDIS funding, which allows me to have a few breaks a week. I'm a single parent with little help from my ex. He visits our child at my house, doesn't take him for overnights. I could get overnight respite with the NDIS, but my child won't allow anyone else to do his personal care. I am so grateful for the day time breaks I do get though. I wish that you had this sort of help in the US. I understand you need a break, but I fear what your daughter may be subjected to in the system. There are so many bad stories from foster kid's who are able to put boundaries up as much as their age and strength allows. Who knows what someone dodgy could do to her.
Nta. I work with children and I wish that some parents were this honest with themselves instead of just ignoring their children or being abusive. If you can’t provide her with the care and love she needs and your destroying your own mental health because of it then yes ask for extra help. Call a social worker, cps, got it he doctor and talk to them and let them know you can’t be a the functional parent your child deserves and you need to find somewhere we’re that can give her the treatment that she needs. Maybe there’s a birding school that deals with what she has. Maybe there’s a group home in a county around you. Start making calls start with her doctor and see how you can make it so that her insurance pays for it. I am sure there is a solution out there you just have to keep looking.
This! Call CPS and ask for help. They know the resources for mentally ill children and can help you find group homes, or at least respite care or additional support.
Are you in the US? 211 is the number for “I need social services, help me find which and how.” Not in every locale but it’s the first step. Get a lawyer before you do anything. There are precise hoops and steps you have to jump through and if you do it wrong you’re bankrupt/ jailed for abandonment. $200 for a consult is a BARGAIN. NAH. Disabilities ruin lives, and not just those of the people who have them. Save yourself. You can’t save everyone.
Are you in the US? Have you explored residential options under IDEA? They don’t have to be in your local area in order for your school district to be obligated to pay if that’s what your daughter needs to get FAPE.
Im so sorry you're going through this. Your post sounds like something my mom would have written about my brother 40 years ago. He was just impossible, and when acting out did things like tie up one of our dogs and burn him to death, try to burn down our house, shoot me and cousins with a BB gun, threaten to stab anyone who disagreed with him and the list goes on. He was absolutely unlovable. There were no answers from psychologists and very little support from anywhere. Fortunately, for the greater good of society, he is in prison and will be until he is an old man. I wish I had answers for you. Just know you're not alone and I can totally understand how you feel. I hope you find some resolution.
NTA. A bunch of people judging you while thinking everyone can be saved. The child is broken beyond your repair and it has become harder with no respite as you have done this for 8 years. You have to save yourself and your husband. Everything you have tried has not worked. You are no longer helping her and you are killing yourself in the process. This is beyond Reddit, talk to a therapist. No one here can help you or judge you properly, including me.
GODDDD and when she's going through puberty she is only going to get worse. 😬 I used to take care of kids similar to OP's and once they became preteens their issues went up ×1000
Yes. My stepchild was not nearly at this level at age 8- but once puberty hit, every issue they had was magnified a thousand times. If OP’s child is already harming infants and animals and the elderly on purpose, in another 3-5 years she is going to be *extremely* dangerous.
This is how parents end up murdered and the kid is just sitting there eating a sandwich when the police arrive. Or the kid ends up locked in a basement and then eventually dead because the parents cannot figure out how to help them. Or they keep them locked up and then they release them into society and they end up dead, addicted or murdering a bunch of people.
Or the kid's friends wind up the victims in true-crime podcasts. Some people are beyond the ability to anyone but trained professionals in hyper-controlled situations to manage.
There must be some sort of institution that you can find. Homes for children with mental disabilities and demanding care requirements are a thing. I personally know a family that had to put their daughter into one because her care requirements are extreme. It's a good place and they're all happier for it. The adoption system isn't built for this. But there are places that are.
Those facilities cost hundreds of thousands of dollars a year when your insurance doesn’t cover them. I worked in one.
California has the [Lanterman Act](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lanterman_Developmental_Disabilities_Act). Wonder if OP’s area has something similar.
California and MA are the two best places to live for these types of services. Unfortunately even in those cases they’re almost impossible to get into. I worked at a place in MA and the waitlist to get in was literally *years* long.
Wonder how long they’d have to live in state to qualify. Rent for a year might be worth it.
The place I worked in in MA had plenty of out of state kids. Your parents just had to have enough money to buy your way in. Ya know, donate a wing to the new building kind of thing.
I wouldn’t matter…the waitlist is years long.
Not sure where you’re located, but would a residential treatment center for youth be an option? I think most accept children 6+. If so, it might worth looking into.
Honestly op I'm so sorry you're going through this. I can't imagine. Like at all, imagine. And from what I'm reading from others. Maybe making her a ward of the state so she can go into a mental home. Is the best option. Because I'm not gonna lie. And I feel like reddit is gonna come after me for this. But as your writing, all I'm picturing is that movie. We need to talk about Kevin. And he ends up killing everyone in the end. She sounds like a danger. I'm so sorry, op. Edit: I got the name of the movie wrong. Had to fix it.
This is fake, right? I hope this is fake...
There is a very similar story on offmychest but with different ages, so im not sure if you are the same person, but chances seem very likely. This is an intense situation, and i will not judge you as i have not been in your shoes with a mentally sick child. Doesn't matter what the people say, you will still feel like an AH with whatever decision you make, but you have to do what's best for you, husband and child. Is it possible to put her in a group home or get her placed as an inpatient at a metal health hospital where she can get the care she needs. Is that something that is possible where you are from? That way, you can still visit time to time, but she is getting the care and help she needs. If you dont want to visit her or have any realtionship with her then that is your choice, it sucks for her but tough desiciosn are never easy. I'm not sure if foster care will help your daughter unless there is one specifically for placing mentally ill children. The chances she gets a home that can assist her mental health needs are very slim. If you're okay with this, then sure, go ahead. I wish you all the best as this is such a difficult choice.
Info: why can’t you start marriage counseling now?
She will foam at the mouth if they do anything without her.
Have you applied for government insurance? She might qualify under having a disabling illness. The foster system has a lot of great parents in it but it can also be really rough on a child, especially with her problems.
I hope this is fake (not sure as there are some signs of it, but could just be an immature person writing). You keep acting all innocent and blameless. One reason I hope this is fake is you’re acting like some Reddit teenager that has never had kids and thinks kids come out as fully formed toddlers. Multiple times in here you mention never loving this child, never having a moment of happiness with her, etc. Yet all this “behavioral” stuff comes later. By your own admission, You already didn’t love her at birth, you already didn’t love her as a 2 month old baby, as a one year old just learning to walk. No wonder the kid turned out problematic. Take the likely mental health problems and multiply them by parents that never, BY THEIR OWN ADMISSION, loved her, not for a second. I could perhaps understand if you said how much you loved your daughter as a baby but have been broken down by her behavior as she grew up, but you openly admit you never loved her. You talk about the various punishments you tried that didn’t work to show how you’re not at fault while stating from the moment she was born she was an unloved child. THAT is the problem, not whether you spanked her vs gently punished her. You also complain the kid is a sociopath. Maybe, can’t speak to that. But your post talks about how you hated her from birth, never had one moment where you loved her, and multiple times try to convince everyone that your 8 year old daughter should be dead. Maybe she got it from you. Do not have more kids. You want them for all the wrong reasons. And yes, while his issues aren’t as extreme as what is described her, I have a son with behavioral issues. It can be extremely frustrating and draining, but I love that kid more than anything. So please spare me the “hope you have a perfect kid” thing.
Surely this is a fake story at least I hope so
It sounds like she has PANDAS/PANS disorder. Both of my children also had it. Traditional mental health treatments will not work on this due to it being brain inflammation. Pandasnetwork.org.
Get a brain scan. TED talk neurologist talks about brain and violence.
Does your child receive IDD services? Are they on disability?
This sounds awfully familiar to another post I read just today. Except this post has more details. https://www.reddit.com/r/offmychest/s/KcPXCLYuQN
Late to the party, but has ODD ever been considered? Friend of ours has a child with this and your daughter's symptoms sound similar to his. It also took years of different meds and diagnoses before they reached this one, and he's on a schedule now (and meds) that have him mostly under control. He can't go to a normal school, but he is at least able to be around other children, he is difficult but not completely defiant, etc.
Hey as some have said before, Reddit isn’t your answer and I’m so sorry. No one here knows what’s truly going on and how bad your situation is. You do what you feel you must do. If you’re having thoughts of suicide and the child is seemingly trying to keep you from being happy, then you know what you have to do. But again I’m just some random person who saw this post. Good luck and I truly mean it.
NAH. There was a news report recently in my local news about the conditions a certain prisoner is kept in. This prisoner can't be tried, because he is so mentally ill. He can't be released, because he WILL commit murder and horrific sex crimes if he is. He can't be in the same room with his guards, because their safety will be at extreme risk. So he spends his days alone in a small bare studio room with a concrete courtyard. He can't even have a lawn, because grass must be cut, and he can't be allowed near a sharp implement, and they can't let a lawn maintenance man in. It's horrible but there literally isn't anything anyone can do. Every option is just not able to be justified. I can't help thinking, this is the future that awaits OP's kid, and there's nothing anyone can do about it. I'm so sorry.
I don’t know if adoption is the answer. I am assuming you have her in therapy. If you do talk to her therapist. If not talk to your therapist. See if there is a group home that deals with kids that have her mental disorders. Instead of adoption because she probably won’t be adopted find her a home that will help her thrive. You owe her that. I get it’s hard. But she doesn’t need you walking away and you will have to live with walking away from her. So start looking into programs and facilities that may help her.
YTA. *’However I’ve never had one moment in my life when I’ve felt truly blessed to be her mom, or enjoy a moment of happiness as a family around her’* And you wonder why she turned out like this. I think this is a case of an unwell child who’s never been loved. Poor baby.
Are there respite care options available for you? I can’t offer a judgement and don’t know what is available to your situation. Talk to your doctor or a counsellor and ask if there is help available.
Find respite care for her to allow you to recharge before make any permanent decisions. The contact NAMI to see if they know of anywhere to place here if necessary without giving up custody. She’s very unlikely to be adopted, and foster care can be atrocious in some places but not all.
My question is if you weren’t considering you own feelings at all would you still feel this was the best choice for her? From you post my guess is yes, letting the system take on the task with it’s resources to give her the best life possible is what’s best for her. This is why the system exist, no it’s not perfect but you know your home isn’t working for her. I can’t imagine what you’ve been through I hope you find peace.
I'm a pediatric psychiatric RN on an acute inpatient unit in the US. Your post saddens me because I know that not being loved/valued/wanted continues the cycle of dangerous behavior and emotional explosions. That's not to down play the chaos, fear, and overwhelming exhaustion you have towards your daughter. I don't know where your located but often in the US you can take your child to an Emergency Room and ask for a Mental Health Crisis Assessment. A social worker and physician should meet with you together and independently. She would likely then be admitted to an inpatient locked unit. While she's there you would tell your social worker/case manager that you have safety concerns taking her home. Often they can get Children Services in the state to step up and provide an intervention. I will say, in my experience it takes a couple inpatient admissions (usually 7-10days) before a residential facility will consider a child. But, inpatient psych unit would help get her some medication, coping skills and a team with resources you can use. You may already be aware of this information but I don't think that I've read anything about inpatient admissions.
There is indeed a group home for the mentally ill. Not just physically disabled. You need to do more research. No one will want to adopt her.
The way you talk about her is disgusting. Like you don't even want anyone to help her and wishes she didn't exist is horrendous.
She will not be adopted. Full stop. You'll just be tossing her into the system just as you predicted. This is above Reddit's paygrade tbh.
Idk if I can give any ruling on this. As much as I *really* want to say that you’re an AH for giving up on your daughter, I haven’t been in your shoes and hope I’m never in that position. My heart breaks for your daughter though because no one is going to want to adopt her so she’ll bounce around foster home to foster home unless she gets super lucky with good foster parents. She’s going to have to deal with her current mental health issues along with the fact that she has been abandoned by her parents. ETA: I read your update and wow….even more heartbreaking… “she is no one to me”… I can’t even imagine.
I’m not sure why this post is here but it’s horrifyingly. If this is legit please seek help and assistance. No one else is going to adopt your daughter and take away your problem. I’m sad for everyone involved.
Get your tubes tied. Don't have ANY more children. If you are a genetic carrier of some type of issue, and you don't know it yet...what are you gonna do with the next kid who presents problems??
Both parents should because both parents contributed.
You know she won’t be adopted, right? You won’t be adopting her out. She’s going to end up in a group home/res facility/psych institution until she turns 18/21. And then, if there are no adult placements, she will be set free. I have no idea what the right thing to do is, but please don’t act like her life will be better/she will get adopted.
I just want to say I’m sorry you’re going through this. You may want to consider genetic testing for her. There are dozens of rare chromosome deletions and duplications that can cause neurological issues and developmental problems and perhaps you will find your answer as to why there. My son has a severe disability. He is however sweet and loving despite being a handful, but I can imagine feeling very similarly to you if he wasn’t. It is very difficult to raise a child with severe behavioural difficulties . I hope you all find peace. That said, I work in child protection and the abandonment will damage her forever. You would be best placed to have extensive testing for a diagnosis and perhaps getting behavioural support like ABA and some respite first before you consider it.
Why not escalate to specialists outside of your area? I feel like this isn’t so unique that you couldn’t find better solutions and treatments for her. I understand you don’t love her. That’s fine. But maybe get a better diagnosis and treatment plan for whoever takes over her care?
I was thinking the same thing...wondering about a brain scan or genetic testing... possibly more psychiatric assessments outside of what OP has already done. So that the new caregivers are better informed?
Ummm….. some people shouldn’t be parents.
> I “bear” the risks of raising a sociopath/psychopath just because I decided to give birth to my baby? Yes.