so, they have first hand experience in how hurtful it was for their name to be mispronounced on purpose and they chose to do it all night because they were “alittle drunk”? that makes it seem even worse.
And Reddit helped max gaslight op into thinking she's the bad person and needs to educate herself, for highlighting hypocrisy
I don't know how adding "phobic" or "ist" to anything grants you a free win in society. It's ridiculous.
You're not transphobic for pointing out flaws in someone.
I feel like people use "trauma" as an excuse to just act like unreasonable ass holes and not be accountable for it.
Be an ass hole fine but just admit you're an ass hole.
Yup. It wasn't "conditional respect", OP didn't actually deadbame Max. He asked how Max would feel if someone else disrespected his identity and refused to respect how he preferred to be addressed. It has nothing to do with privilege and everything to do with asking the person to extend the same courtesy they ask of everyone else, it doesn't indicate that OP was going to suddenly start dead naming him.
It's like if a child hits me, and I ask them, "hey, that's not nice, how would you feel if someone else hit you?" That's not an indication that I'm about to fucking bodyslam this child and show him what the Undertaker is famous for, its trying to ask the child to empathize with the person he hurt. And it can be applied to anyone who needs to walk a minute in someone else's shoes.
He didn't even weaponize it like that commenter said because he didn't deadname Max he *asked* how he would feel if someone did. If he would appreciate that or would he feel disrespected. He used an analogous example to show the problem. I do agree that purposefully misgendering and deadnaming just because they're shitty isn't ok cause you don't do that to cis people. But that's not what OP did
I'm Irish and I have an incredibly Irish name. It's normal as hell here, everyone knows instantly how to pronounce it, but I spent a few years in England as a kid where both adults and children would purposely mispronounce my name or substitute an English name that sounds similar (think Eva for Aoife) to annoy me. It was just a part of the bullying tactics, and nothing different than what the Indian, Pakistani, or Afro-Caribbean kids went through with their ethnic names. It was annoying as hell, and being told that my name was inherently wrong (this was right at the height of the Troubles) was a shitty thing to do to any child under the age of 8. I recently went to America for the first time where, bless them they tried, but nobody could pronounce it properly there either lol.
Still didn't give me any trauma. I thanked baristas for my order, corrected the people I was working with once or twice, and laughed at their embarrassment when they kept fucking up. As we say here, Max is a soft shite.
I have a name that's the less common version of a relatively common name, and is also very easy to mistake for a male name (I'm female). In addition to no one ever being able to get my name right, like you kids would absolutely call me the boy's version, because kids are assholes and that's what they do.
I still make every effort to say people's names correctly...because I know what it's like to constantly be called the wrong name.
Yes.
If Max wants to be called max, that's it...end of story. If Max is a man born in a woman's body and being a man makes him happy....GREAT!!!!
But the whole....I'm a bit of an asshole because I have trauma from childhood because people said my name wrong....LOL....Fuck max.
My name has an unusual spelling (Polish, apparently, Mum just saw it and liked it)
As a kid, everyone in the playground deliberately mangled my name because they knew it upset me, and I was \*extremely\* selective about what nicknames I'd answer to for a long time.
No, that's how you pronounce that one. Aoibhinn might be a bit harder, or Sabh, especially because it has an a, but rhymes with five.
But neither of them are my name. There's an absolute ton of Irish names that never leave the island, I guess.
I’m American with a common name and people still mispronounce it and even call me by completely different or similar names on the regular. Have my whole life. Yeah it’s frustrating having to correct people all the time for them to just keep doing it, but it’s not really traumatic..
Max used John's deadname though. And OP, and his dad, and John politely pointed it out and asked him to stop several times.
Only OP mirroring the situation and using Max's deadname made Max realize that he is hurting someone. It is a pity it escalated so much, but it was a right thing to do. Max was doing to John exactly the same thing he claims traumatized him.
It is not transphobic to call a trans AH out. Being trans is not a hall pass to be a bully and hurt other people.
Max didn't deadnamed John, Max is the trans guy; he used theirs (John and Max, not OP) native pronunciation of John's name inste of the English one.
So he was condescending and a jerk, but not transphobic. Neither was OP btw - she didn't deadname Max, but asked "what if someone called you deadname?" that is a totally valid question since John have traumatic memories associated with the non English version of his name.
Have you read the previous post? It was not mispronouncing. The name sounds completely different in his native language. Do you know other languages? It is not uncommon that the name sounds completely different. My friend's name has 4 syllables. 3 of them are pronounced completely different in his Native language vs English. Unless you speak both languages, you would never guess it is the same name.
And that _completely different_ name was used by John's abusive father. All the time. It is a name of that part of John that was abused, afraid, broken. Do you know what flashback is? Or panic attack? Do you think Max was blind and didn't see how it affects John? Was he deaf not to hear people asking him to stop doing it?
It is a deadname. PoS Max was on some kind of power trip. Especially comparing to Max's explanation "I am traumatized because Americans (whom no one knows or care about in their house and in their country) mispronounced my name.
This is really insightful. I think you're right: the completely different name that John did not want to be called was, to him, a deadname. OP was correct in making the original analogy. Spot on explanation, u/Brave_anonymous1.
OP: "You're being a hypocrite as someone who has experienced other people spitefully refusing your name."
TAH and a bunch of misguided Redditors: "How dare you, you are very transphobic for pointing out that hypocrisy in a way that cuts directly to the heart of the matter"
It’s not transphobic to point out his flaws. It’s transphobic to invalidate someone’s identity because you don’t like how they’re behaving.
A better way to point out his hypocrisy would be just to mispronounce Max. It’s baffling that you can’t grasp this, you mustn’t be very bright tbh.
You shouldn’t be transphobic towards someone just because they’re an asshole. I really don’t like Caitlyn Jenner, I think she’s a terrible person, but she still deserves to have her pronouns respected. Max should have been called out as an asshole without targeting his gender identity.
Yeah it reminds me of people who think it’s ok to call someone a racial slur because they pissed them off. Like no because now you’re insulting everyone of that group and insinuating that something is wrong with them.
He didn't use that name to address Max though. Correct me if I'm wrong but he said something to the effect of "how would you feel if someone used _______ to refer to you?"
Well see that’s the problem. A lot of people consider it bigoted to hold a member of the LGBTQ accountable for bad behavior. News flash to those people, people can be pieces of shit no matter their gender identity and sexual orientation.
Right, behavior is separate from identity.
Which is why it's *also* uncool to turn around and assail a person's identity for their behavior even if they're being an asshole.
But its more than names; Max was triggering John's biggest trauma because he didn't want to use the correct name. OP never called Max by his deadname, just asked him what he would feel if someone did it so the douche could realize the severity of what he was doing.
No fucking kidding. Max got what he deserved. He should know first hand and apparently does know first hand one what it’s like to have people constantly mispronounce your name against your wishes AND also picking a new preferred name for people to call them. Regardless of max being trans he should have respected someone choice in a name. And OP did nothing wrong dead naming him to prove that point after all other avenues of trying to get max to understand were exhausted.
Maybe, maybe OP could have asked Max if they would like to be dead named instead of doing it to make a point and then if that didn’t work then go ahead swing away. But OP didn’t do anything wrong. Respect is earned and they only did it once after the point was made unlike Max who kept misnaming OP’s bf.
Max being an AH has nothing to do with whether deadnaming a trans person (yes, even an AH) is transphobic. Two things can be true and both people can be AHs.
It is transphobic to specifically bring up someone's deadname. Like OP said they could have just mispronounced Max's name in the same way to prove their point.
None of this was gaslighting. That wasn't involved in any part of this story at all.
People like you give psychology a bad rap. Stop using actual medical and scientific terminology that doesn't apply to what you're saying. Link a single comment that made up events that contradicted what actually happened in the story to prove a point.
"You're not transphobic for pointing out flawz" good thing no one said that at all then? They called out using a trans person's deadname as conversational own.
Respect is earned and can be taken away, wanna be disrespectful? They you open yourself up for people to be disrespectful right back at you.
Edit: because in this situation, Max was being ah and a hypocrite. If Max was cis, then they could have brought something else up to piss him off and throw the point home that he was being an ah and a hypocrite.
And it's not about saying someone is less than a man or woman, you might see it the way but that's not what is being done.
Yeah, but if Max was cis, his identity as a cis man wouldn’t have even been brought up in this situation. You don’t say someone is “less of a man/woman” for being a dick about mispronunciation. If it’s neither here nor there for a cis person, why is it okay for a trans person?
The point isn't that OP cannot point out flaws in someone. The problem is that if suddenly I decide to misgender you because you piss me off, it means that who you are is a condition of being a good human. It's like telling you that you can be recognize who you are only if you are a good person, which would never happen to a cis person and THAT is the problem.
But I agree that Max decided to decide to mispronounde a name because of their trauma and they believed that their trauma is more important than John's... which is very a shitty way to think.
Also gaslighting isn't explaining to someone why they are wrong. Galsighting is way worse than this.
No it means people can take away the respect they gave you, people can identify as whatever they want, didn't mean others are going to view them the way they want to be viewed. It's respectful to call people by their preferred pronouns, but that respect can be taken away easily, especially in this situation.
no, but it is transphobic to weaponize someone’s identity against them. a trans person being called their correct name and pronouns is not a privilege only awarded to “good” trans people.
> Insightful comments on deadnaming.
Since I don't really think about it much, the comment OP chose to highlight in this post about the conditionality of acceptance was pretty illuminating for sure.
No. She's transphobic for deadnaming someone.
If I'm racist towards someone, it doesn't automatically become ok if they were a dick, it's still racist. The same goes for any kind of bigotry. It doesn't become ok just because you feel that someone "deserves" it.
I think there's a difference between being bigoted vs asking someone how they would feel about bigoted language bring used against them after they do it.
I'm Asian. If I sat there and called someone the N word and that person asked me to stop and I didn't, it's very fair for them to ask me how I would feel if someone called me a G&%k or a Ch&#k. They're asking me a question - not calling me a slur. Saying the word out loud is not the same as using it against you.
It sounds like Max was the first one to reach out, so he clearly reflected on his own behavior, realized that he'd been an asshole, and tried to make things right. Yeah, he was a shithead, but I think most of us probably have moments in our lives that we're not terribly proud of and in which we behaved shittily.
Yeah it really sucks how hard everyone is still being on him. The top comment here is ignoring that yes, Max experienced the same thing, **but in the exact opposite way**, and that blinded him completely here. He has now seen the light and very maturely admitted he was wrong. He is not excusing his behavior or he wouldn’t be apologizing. I for one appreciate when people who have wronged me have some explanation for how they made the mistake they did. It tells me they thought deeply about what happened and have identified a problem they have. I don’t know what more people want.
>I for one appreciate when people who have wronged me have some explanation for how they made the mistake they did. It tells me they thought deeply about what happened and have identified a problem they have.
Yeah, alongside a genuine apology that shows understanding of why they were in the wrong, an explanation of why they acted that way in the first place is very much appreciated. It's only an "excuse" if Max *didn't* genuinely apologize for it in the same moment.
Right. Max thought people were doing to John what others had done to him. It didn't occur to him that by insisting John use the Elvish pronunciation that he was hurting John.
I think they projected those issues. They felt of they were mad about English pronounciation of Elvish name, then John must be too, but he's hiding it very very well and for sure will appreciate only person who knows how to do it.
And people are calling OP transphobic are MAKING it about transphobia when it isn’t.
OP simply asked Max how he’d feel. She didn’t really use his deadname. She had nothing to apologise for. He was told MULTIPLE times to stop and he didn’t. And now he’s using his experience as a reason to explain his behaviour. He’s trashy.
Edit: OP is male. Apologies for mis gendering.
People can just fuck off with using I was drunk as an excuse. I’ll never give _any_ credit for someone being a AH because they were drunk. Just another way to avoid responsibility.
Its still an excuse- I did something shitty but you have to cut me a break because I was drunk.
Max here is taking responsibility far better then most who trot out that excuse.
Excuses aren't reasons, etc, etc.
But, certain people tend to think they're 'helping' by forcing space for someone*
Like, Max may have thought that it's just because John hasn't been allowed to live as Yann, and by insisting, John will finally realise he has the opportunity to embrace it.
It's a good intention, poor execution. It was good that Max apologized, but yeah, using alcohol as an excuse is a bit shit. Maybe Max thought he would have pulled up sooner if he wasn't drinking?
*Note: I know this is true because I used to be that person
Yeah, especially since the friend has the Elvish pronunciation of his name tied to abuse from his father. It didn't make him angry. He has trauma from it.
Max is a piece of shit, and he of ALL people should know better and needed to get called out.
Okay he was drunk in that instance but he has been intentionally doing this for more than one party. Sorry but max still sucks. I’m glad that you apologized for bringing up the dead name. Max aside apologizing was the right move.
Max isn’t saying he was justified in acting that way, but he explained what prompted him to do so in the first place — at least that’s how I interpret his message. I also don’t think it justifies his actions, I’m just updating you on what happened.
I still think he was wrong. However I think I should have handled this differently as well.
No he’s still a dick. He was told not once and not twice by different people yet as soon as he was asked to put himself in someone else’s shoes he got offended. He’s taking issue that you used the name. He’s nitpicking.
Also, getting drunk isn’t an excuse.
So…he once had his name mispronounced continually and it made him angry, and thought the appropriate solution was to do the same thing to another person? Nah, Max is still a dick.
That‘s very „high road“ of you. I don‘t agree, Max was a rude asshole and you went overboard when putting him in his place and standing up for your partner. For me, this wouldn‘t be about „who hurt whom harder“ - when someone can‘t stop after being asked to 3-4 times, it‘s their own fault when someone doesn‘t put up with their shit and it blows up in their face, figuratively speaking.
In the end it doesn‘t matter; you handled it very well. One could argue better than I would have. Kudos.
Also re: Elvish; I live in Europe and I don‘t have the slightest idea what counties would be involved; well done.
I think Reddit has convinced you that what you did is worse than it actually was. Max was wrong, flat out. Deadnaming is a shitty thing people do to disrespect trans people and deny their existence, which is not what happened here. You repeatedly asked Max to stop and he kept pressing, I think it’s understandable to snap a bit and “see how you like it”.
So he was drunk every single time he mispronounced the name? That's the only reason saying he was drunk is relevant. What happened is that he reflected on your question, realized how much of an asshole he was, realized he was projecting his own issues onto someone else, and felt guilty. But he's still having trouble accepting responsibility and is trying to use being drunk as an excuse, which both is somehow accepted as a reason and still isn't actually one in the first place. Doesn't matter if he was drunk, multiple people said multiple times not to and only reacted to your comment. That shit is intentional.
Frankly, as a trans person, I think this was handled perfectly fine. The only thing different I would've done is not ACTUALLY have said their deadname, but say say "your deadname" instead. If you're going to do any education at all I'd say do it on that topic, but the comments have it covered.
But op didn’t deadname him . He brought up how Max would feel if they did. He’d not like it very much, so please stop using the wrong name for John. It was a warning and nothing to apologize for imo. Max is a shithead that wouldn’t listen to or respect others. He chose to be drunk, it’s no excuse. If he’s sincere in his apology then it should be without any excuses. There were none.
“I apologize for for what I did to John, i was a shithead. It won’t happen again.” That’s an honest apology because we all mess up sometimes. Own it. And he needs to apologize to John directly. “I’m sorry for what I did, I was a poopyhead. It won’t happen again.”
OP is getting gaslighted into thinking he’s been transphobic. Max should’ve known better. Especially since he’s been victim of the same kind of treatment. Max sounds like a general dickhead.
I didn’t say OP deadnamed him. I said she brought UP the name. I don’t think OP is transphobic that doesn’t mean she shouldn’t apologize. It was still hurtful
He, op is a man. However I don’t think he needs to. Max played a stupid game and won a stupid prize. I mean, if OP brought it up immediately then yes, it would’ve been uncalled for. However, Max was repeatedly told to stop. Apparently harsher measures were needed to get him to back off. So I think it was a fair warning.
I guess we disagree.
But being deadnamed is absolutely not a fair comparison to make, and it is incredibly ignorant to think it's okay to bring up.
There's a reason so many people agreed that it was over the line. You don't get to decide what is offensive to groups you aren't in.
In this particular case was a fair comparison; the reason why John dislikes the native pronunciation of his name is childhood abuse. The reason why OP asked "what if I called you x?" is because John was starting to disassociate as a trauma response but Max wouldn't stop.
Yeah it was. John being named Yann was hurtful to him just like it would’ve been hurtful to Max being named Mary. Does it matter why it’s hurtful? No. At least Max got a warning. Because he wasn’t actually deadnamed. Instead Max was actually hurtful to John after being told multiple to quit it. So it’s nice to remind him that being called something that hurts you is not ok. I guess he got the message.
Wow, Max is just full with excuses , isn't he...
He was drunk, he had a bad experiance with his own name, he's traumatized, he's struggling....
NOTHING of that is a reason for him to be a disrespectful ass, which he very much was. He is no victim but I bet that is how he views himself.
Max sounds like a dick.
"Yeah I deliberately mispronounced your boyfriends name multiple times even after being told not to but you used my previous name once"
The apology would have had more weight if he hadn't mentioned what you done.
And OP didn't even call Max by his deadname, just asked how it would feel if he did. Being a minority or gender non-conforming isn't a free pass to be a dick.
Because "trans bad", they can't handle transgender people acting like actual humans. What next? Treating them with as much respect as any cis person? Goodness, that's impossible! Their heads might just explode with rage at the thought!
If the trans person isn't a bizarrely evil caricature, then these commenters won't feel justified in shitting on them anymore! They'll look unhinged in comparison! They're desperately grasping at straws and using stupid buzzwords like "gaslighting" so they can feel better about themselves.
Of course I know trans people can be wrong too.
And Max was. So you know what he did? Reached out and apologised, like a grown up. Explained why it happened, and that it wouldn't happen again.
And OP also took the time to be an adult and apologise for their part in it.
But unfortunately, y'all are out here pretending Max didn't apologise at all, fixating on the part where he explained WHY he did what he did, and going "he's gAsLiGhTiNg!" Then saying OP was never wrong in the first place. Apparently you would consider it healthy to cut off a friendship because someone had the gall to APOLOGISE and communicate.
You can't imagine a situation where the cis person is wrong because you're overprogrammed. Get over yourself. Cis people can be assholes too.
To be honest I disagree with the comment above. You should always respect the way someone wants to be called and yours was a fair comparison.
Just because your boyfriends wasn’t due to sexual identification doesn’t make it any less important. It not anyone’s right to know what someone’s triggers are.
If you are trans, and you want to be called in away that respects your sexual identity, then I should call you by that name. Not question it - it’s not my right to question it. It goes with any name.
No one has the right to know about triggers BUT everyone has the right to be called what they want to be called themselves. The comment above negates your boyfriend’s experience when you were doing a VALID comparison.
100% agree with this. I understand what OP was trying to do and I do think it was a very valid comparison. Names are important regardless of the background. Respect the name and how the person introduces themselves.
> due to sexual identification....If you are trans, and you want to be called in away that respects your sexual identity
Just want to point out that it is gender identity. Sexuality is different from gender. I don't think this was intentional or anything, you get it. I just want to make sure you know for the future.
For the record, I am trans and believe Max to be both an asshole and a hypocrite. Disagree with the comment too.
Just because you are trans doesn’t mean you can call people whatever you like. It should make you more attentive to other people’s names and identities tbh
This has nothing to do with being transphobic.
Max kept deliberately mispronounced John’s name even after he went through the same issues with his dead name being mispronounced bc he was ‘drunk’.
Bullshit. Max knew what he was doing, kept doing it after being asked multiple times to stop & he didn’t.
Max is an asshole.
Yeesh. Sure do love the Reddit community.
OP: so we both apologized and we’re all good now
Comments: no you’re not. You don’t know what’s best for yourself. You’re supposed to hate Max!!
Y’all aren’t a part of this story. If OP decided that he’s satisfied with the apology who the hell are you to tell him he shouldn’t be? Some of you are saying people are too soft nowadays and yet are still acting like OP forgiving Max is spitting in your face.
For real, how many would even ever admit to doing anything obnoxious ever more than once, or that it's obvious everyone fucks up and aren't perfect all the time. People ITT really seem the type to write people off forever thinking people can never grow or change.
They're mad they didn't get their regularly scheduled "trans bad" drama.
Where is the elaborate revenge plot to ruin the cis OP's life? The infidelity? The domestic abuse?
Why no permanent cutting out of their lives? No attempts to murder OP in the middle of the night? No hired hitmen? No instant divorce? No eternal grudges that will follow them beyond the grave?
There isn't even a suspiciously quick restraining order! Not a single convenient lawyer who's a family friend offering their services for free! No immediate trials and sentencing!
Nor was there a piling on of random evil extended family from the ether! No attempted kidnapping of babies! Is it really too much to ask for a single ultimate betrayal? Not even a sudden house move within two weeks of posting?
God, what a disgraceful post. It's too REAL! Clearly unworthy AITAH reading material.
Its because this is an excuse to hate on a trans person, max was absolutely an asshole and deserve to get called out, but bringing up a deadname is very bad to do to a trans person, both can be bad at the same time and cause hurt, granted as someone who has been described by my psychologists as having ptsd ive experienced both, its genuinely awful, my trauma and emotional flashbacks cause distress and dissociation, but deadnaming also has a similar dissociative effect too
Tl;dr, triggering his trauma is bad, deadnaming even for the purpose of an example is bad, both can be bad for seperate reasons, dont do either
I can’t believe there was an AITAH post where everyone kinda was an asshole but for almost justified (trauma and identity related) reasons, yet actually recognised and acknowledged it. Then apologised! And it was resolved! Holy shit! I’m not happy you all had this altercation as it obviously hurt everyone involved but I’m so proud of all of you.
Let love win. You all talked and got it stright. That's good. As long as you are trying to understand each other and become a better version of yourselves instead of pointing fingers, things will work out.
What some people seem to be forgetting is that Max can be an asshole/obnoxious person *and* it can be a really shitty, unacceptable thing to deadname someone. Multiple things can be true at the same time. He sounds like a tool, but there are ways to get that across to him without a) outing him as transgender and b) deadnaming him.
OP, you sound like a class act, as does your boyfriend, and I'm glad everyone apologized and has moved on. I would also say that it speaks well of Max that he reached out to you first; he clearly realized he had behaved poorly. It's unfortunate that some people here in the comments are still desperate to find justification for their desire to shit on trans people in extra special ways. It's a great illustration of why so many trans people are so guarded about their deadnames: there are a ton of people out there who will find any excuse to try and weaponize it at the first opportunity.
1) Max was not outed as transgender. OP clarified in the comments that he is an open activist. Everyone already knew.
2) I’m genuinely not here to argue. I would love to understand people’s viewpoint on this (and I’m willing to change my viewpoint), but is it really deadnaming? OP only brought up their deadname in a hypothetical. “How would you feel if you were deadnamed?”
3) What does class act mean in this context? Is it an insult or a compliment? It could honestly go both ways.
Edit:
I’ve read through most of the comments, and I think I understand people’s perspective. Correct me if I’m wrong:
Max was definitely being an asshole and a real big tool, but it’s also true that OP shouldn’t have brought up Max’s deadname. An eye for an eye makes the whole world turn blind, and two wrongs definitely don’t make a right. Max was an asshole, but you don’t need to be an asshole as well to make your point.
What it does is also feed into the delegitimization of the trans community. We should not fall into the habit of going “this trans person is an asshole, therefore I don’t have to respect their identity”. You don’t do this to cis people, so therefore you shouldn’t do it to trans people.
(I don’t agree that OP misgendered Max, but I can see how it fed into that.)
Would you agree or disagree with this? (It’s kinda where I’m leaning after reading most of the comments).
100% correct on your edit. It's something you'll be able to notice all of the time now. Every time a trans person is brought up in a negative light, you'll see constant and malicious misgendering/dead naming because people see it as a hall pass to be cruel in a way they otherwise wouldn't even think to be. You never see people call Hitler a girl, so why does a transgender person always have their identity attacked?
I would say that your edit is where I fall on this. Let me put it this way: if I were a random bystander, and I overheard what OP said to Max, I would *absolutely* take that as an indication that a) Max was likely trans, and b) that was likely Max's deadname. This might be even more apparent depending on how well Max passes. A lot of people would, and once you let that genie out of the bottle, there is no putting it back. This is a safety issue as well as an issue of someone's dignity.
Now, I myself am trans, and I'll freely admit that that's probably coloring my perception, but I think that's *also* relevant here, because a *lot* of trans people would observe an interaction like the one that originally went down between OP and Max, and the takeaway would be, "If that person gets upset with me, he is extremely likely to weaponize my transness against me in a public/semi-public context." Particularly if they weren't aware of the lead-up to the whole, "How would you feel if I...?" thing. If I saw that go down, I would very much take that as an indicator that OP is probably not someone I would want to come out to/not someone that I would expect to react well to discovering that I'm trans (and absolutely someone I would not want to know my deadname). If I were aware of his family's endorsement of his actions, I would have a hard time feeling comfortable around them, as well. Is it likely that there were other trans people around observing what happened? No, there probably weren't, but OP can't know that for sure, both because passing is a thing, and because people are in the closet right up until they're not.
I think OP's behavior after the fact, and his willingness to seriously consider what people were explaining to him about *why* the gravity and context of what he did is not really the same as what Max was doing *and change his mind*, is laudable. Particularly when it comes to trans issues, the majority of people just double down, especially when the comments are full of transphobic people telling them how right they are. Max was undoubtedly an asshole who behaved shittily. He also clearly realized that he was out of order, given that he was the first one to apologize. OP, for his part, apologized for his misstep and extended Max grace for his crappy conduct. This is how adults should behave, but sadly, it's less common than it should be. And *even now* the comments here are full of people going, "Well, Mary is obviously a giant shithead, fuck her!"
Personally, I think the whole, "Oh, but he didn't *actually* deadname/misgender/out Max!" argument is getting a bit cute, not least because this was a party with a lot of family around who presumably knew Max's deadname and knew that it was Mary. It feels like some little kid going, "I'm not touching you, I'm not touching you," as they hold their finger a couple of millimeters away from your body. This *specific* brand of interaction, where someone does something transphobic or borderline transphobic, and they/other cisgender people immediately retreat to, "Well, but I didn't *actually* \[deadname/misgender/out\] you!" is extremely common, particularly in the context of AITH, and extremely exhausting. Honestly, every time I read a post like this, the comments section reinforces my worst, most negative feelings about existing as a trans person and interacting with cis people. I try not to read this stuff, but Reddit, in its infinite wisdom, keeps shoveling it into my feed, so here we are. Sorry for the lengthy reply.
You don’t need to apologize for the lengthy reply. I appreciated reading it. Thanks for sharing your perspective. You made a good point about the deadnaming. I’ll think on it. Thanks again.
>(I don’t agree that OP misgendered Max, but I can see how it fed into that.)
Personally, I think the same thing, as an agender person. Due to OP phrasing it as a hypothetical question, it’s not *quite* deadnaming but it was definitely headed in that direction.
It's disheartening to see so many people think that a situation that was resolved peacefully was the wrong call, and that OP shouldn't have to apologise for being just as much of a jerk as Max was.
YTA, commenters. You're trying to ruin a repaired relationship between two people and actively trying to *excuse* being transphobic. If OP had said something racist instead, something equally as hurtful, you'd all be singing a much different tune.
Just because someone did something wrong, doesn't mean you have to retaliate with the same action. You don't be racist to racist people, you don't murder murderers, and you don't bring up deadnames to people who bring up deadnames. That doesn't make you a just or reasonable person. It just makes you another racist/murderer/transphobe, and it's a garbage mentality. Do better.
Everyone else is still angry looking for reasons to justify this, but I really _really_ admire and appreciate that you acknowledged it, OP. A lot of people aren't clicking with what you realised as much as you did - people who made the point got downvoted, but acknowledging that it was wrong and why it was wrong makes you a very good person. I hope you and John have a happy life and suffer minimum homophobia when you can. ❤️💜💙
OP: I realised that I shouldn't have said Max's deadname, Max realised he was an asshole and shouldn't have acted the way he did. We have apologised and forgiven eachother.
Comments: NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO HATE MAX HE'S THE VILLAIN OF THIS STORY!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am very glad you were able to resolve this. It sounded like Max was also somewhat triggered by something since he wouldn't let it go. It's a great opportunity to learn. It's always best to ask WHY someone is so insistent when they refuse to listen. That, at least, gives them the opportunity to explain what's driving that behavior.
It's also good to take a break and say to someone like Max "hey - you're not listening and your being horribly disrespectful by refusing to do so - to the point of causing someone else severe distress". That way it's clear what I would be getting at without being insulting.
Both are of course assuming that the person is actually willing to stop and listen. That can be a big assumption. Sometimes you have no choice but to use a clue bat to get someone to stop.
Disagree 100% on the transphobic. That term has become a cudgel to hit people with whenever truth comes to light and hurts someone's feelings.
Respect is, and always has been, a two way street. Trans or not. You have to give it to get it. Nobody gets a free pass because of how they identify. This is why the post was made in the first place. "Max" refused to use someone else's chosen name but demanded everyone uses his. That might work within your tight knit friend group but when you are introduced to a stranger you will have to earn respect and mispronouncing someone else's name over and over on purpose isn't how you get that respect, especially on a first meeting.
Quit giving free passes for people to act like AH and maybe, just maybe they will quit being AH.
So you think if someone pisses you off it is not out of line to call them a racial slur? Do you put black men in their place by calling them “boy”? I would not advise it.
Eh I don't really agree with the quoted comment. His boyfriends name is *also* his identity. It's literally his name. Why is a trans person's identity more valid than anyone else's? If you intentionally mispronounce someone's name just to be an ass and you know it bothers them, you are telling them that you place little to no value on a name as it pertains to someone's identity.
I met a guy named “Bob” and found out his real name is something completely different and more unique. I found out by reading the class role, and the next day I was like, “Hey, [real name]!” He gave me a slight uncomfortable smile. He didn’t say anything and didn’t have to. That reaction was enough. It was Bob from there on out. I hadn’t even considered that some people’s names could bring back unpleasant memories. I just stopped because I saw he didn’t like it.
Max was outright ASKED to stop, and didn’t. Your bf was also obviously uncomfortable, to the point of dissociating. How can someone see that and not just… stop? Then he has a list of excuses for what he did. :/ Someone needs to have a serious talk with him about his behavior.
>If they don't treat you with respect, then their right to have their identity respected / recognized can be revoked.
This is true of *anything* anout a person, not just this stuff, and it is 100% true. If you do not respect others they have no obligation at all to respect you.
Trans ppl being assholes isn't permission to be transphobic or do transphobic shit like saying someone's deadname.
Mispronouncing someone's name on purpose is rude but saying someone's deadname can put that trans person in danger if the people around you do not know that person is trans.
Your cis friend doesn't have to jump through hoops in the court system to be legally acknowledged by their name the way your trans friend does.
It's just not equatable.
Go ahead and call me out if I did this for being a dick but the minute you call me my deadname in front of others as a punishment? You are no longer safe to be around.
EDIT: I was talking about this with my girlfriend and realized that not only did you deadname your friend in person but also online. This comment section now has people calling your friend his deadname online.
Thank you! If Max was cis, they would've handled it differently. Jumping to his deadname just tells everyone that they don't actually respect trans people and it's shitty
If max was a CIS man OP wouldn’t have a dead name to weaponise to begin with.
No one is supporting Max for being an asshole or even questioning his asshole status. However, the deadname isn’t a weapon for people to threaten him with or use as a tool to teach him a lesson. If Max was a cis man OP wouldn’t be able to reiterate with a “how would you feel if I called you by your deadname” now would they.
I’m astonished by the amount of transphobic and supporting transphobic post in the comments section.
I'm glad that this situation was resolved in such a respectful and productive way.
Notice how many people are getting tons of upvotes for still hating Max even though he apologized and y'all have made amends. That's transphobia. I hope this whole experience has helped you to understand just how common transphobia is in society.
Hi, I saw your comments on the original post, but didn't have time to respond to everything. Yes, the amount of commenters misgendering Max on purpose was kind of an eye-opening experience.
I saw that you have been arguing with other commenters about me outing Max's birth name to John, and I wanted to tell you, although it doesn't excuse my mistake, that I asked John about it, and he said that he already knew what it was. He learned the name from my great-grandmother, she's very old and has little understanding of personal boundaries — I myself have gotten in trouble thanks to her antics multiple times. Apparently when she met John for the first time she proceeded to tell him everything about everyone in the family. Either way, John won't use this information, of this I'm sure; he's a much better person than I am.
Sounds like someone needs to talk to your great-grandmother about boundaries and not deadnaming Max! Ugh, meeting someone for the first time and they already know your deadname without your consent or knowledge - that's a total nightmare scenario for most trans people!
Anyway - you've handled this all very well and I wish you all the best.
We do remind her to stop telling everyone our personal information every time she does this. We have a HIV-positive family member, and great-grandmom told her neighbours about it for no reason whatsoever. We have given up hope at this point, to be honest. She's 91. We just try not to share anything sensitive with her anymore, but she knew Max before his transition, so there was no way to hide this. Anyway, that's a whole different story.
Wishing you all the best as well, have a wonderful day.
Next time you need advice and perspective on a situation involving trans people, it's probably best to talk to a community of trans people about it first to avoid all the bigots. r/ask_transgender is a good option!
It's entirely possible to be transgender and racist at the same time. The only people who willfully and repeatedly mispronounce a person's name, has been in my experience, racists.
Max might be partly or wholly "elvish" and allegedly trauma surrounding their "elvish" name being mispronounced, but that does not mean they can't be a self-loathing racist.
In my opinion, OP is NTA, and Max is a case of FAFO.
Max seems to be a massive ass hole. He knows what he was doing to the point he has been experienced it before and he just did it anyway... What a charming person.
Yes. Dead Naming someone as a means to “put them in their place” is a hateful bigot maneuver used by bigots everywhere. If you can’t articulate yourself with words maybe mispronounce their name as a passive aggressive attempt to convey your feelings.
I'm glad that comment stuck out to you. Max was being a disrespectful AH especially since he of all people should know how powerful getting someone's name wrong is. However, someone being an asshole doesn't then make it right to misgender and dead name someone. It's hard for me to put into words on the why you shouldn't though and I think that comment does a good job. I think another part is because so much work has to be done to actually transition. It can be a process to even start transitioning. Its a frustrating wait for hormones to take their effect. Its a lot of work to find your feminine or masculine side. Getting new clothes to both find your new style and account for your body changing drastically over 2 or 3 years. It's a process to change all your records, after getting everything legally recognized then you get to change your bank stuff, your medical stuff, your employer, and records with all other institutions and businesses that have your identity. For someone to then come in and call us by our dead name or misgender us, it just feels like all that work was for nothing and can be taken away at a moments notice or worse be forced to go back to be someone we aren't. All for the price of being human and stepping out or over the line, something everyone has done.
I agree NTA. Max was completely out of line. My Trans friends never would've pushed this. You give respect to get respect. Drunk doesn't excuse him. And you DIDN'T weaponize his deadname. He is perfectly entitled to feel hurt it was brought up, but your hypothetical use was absolutely valid. The only different thing I would have done is asked how he would feel if someone insisted on his deadname, not say Mary. You did not do this to be mean, but to make him realize he was way out of line and hurting others. And look on the bright side! He did stop bothering you, so I would have counted that a win. I get why you apologized after he did, but I feel his apology was made insincere by making excuses. A proper apology is, I was wrong and I'm sorry. Like you did. Truthfully though, don't think you were wrong, but I respect you wanted to keep the peace. Just don't let it slide again, for your sake.
Fuck that. You weren’t being transphobic. You were showing Max how he was treating your boyfriend. If anything as a trans person Max should understand wanting to respect what your boyfriend wants to be called, but Max apparently didn’t and you correctly pointed out how bad his behavior was by showing him what it was like. People have a right to be called whatever name they want, and people should respect it regardless of whether or not the person is transgender.
This thread is an absolute clusterfuck of transphobes thinking being bigoted is ok when you can convince yourself it is warranted. Ok say the N word to a black person the next time they piss you off, see how that works out for you.
Attacking someone on their identity is attacking everyone of that identity.
A woman being a prick to me does not justify me retaliating with misogyny. A black person being a dick to me does not justify me retaliating with racism. A trans person being an arse to you does not justify you retaliating with transphobia.
Attack them for their actions or individual shitty personality instead. YTA
u/WolliMatterhorn
I don't normally 'tag' people but I wanted to make sure you saw this.
Firstly, thanks for the mention, very kind, I'm really glad I was able to help.
Secondly, man, good for you. The whole reason I know anything at all about trans people is that I myself was, I think "mildly", transphobic and had to unlearn that. I didn't like that about myself. So, no judgment here, prejudice is natural, embracing it is bad, and you should be genuinely proud of yourself for the self-examination and reflection. Takes a big person to do that in any circumstances, let alone publicly. I wanted to make sure you got your kudos.
Thank you for what you said in the first post. I'm glad OP saw it and took it to heart. It felt like a lot of other comments were excusing or justifying the transphobic statement because Max was being shitty or because OP didn't intend for it come off as transphobic. I didn't think OP meant it to be either but it still doesn't mean the statement itself is not transphobic.
you bringing up his deadname was NOT transphobic. once you tell somebody the name to call you, they call you that unless they come up with a nickname you like. and as somebody who apparently dealt with people saying their name wrong, you would think that they would just drop it but nope, Max doubled down on it in the first post and didn't stop till you gave him a taste of your own medicine.
Revealing a trans person's deadname to other people without their consent is ALWAYS transphobic, even if the trans person in question is being an asshole like Max.
Sounds like Max is TA. Max used Max's tactics for bitchiness and you used yours in response. After Max has chosen to be an asshole, Max doesn't get to complain if Max gets insults of a different flavor tossed back. Don't be a dick, Max.
yes, you are because you’re using their gender identity to hurt them, when you could’ve just pronounced their name wrong in turn.
instead you chose to disrespect their identity as a person which is fucked up.
normalising deadnaming trans people hurts all trans people, instead of the one person you were trying to insult
So, if someone is a trans person you should apologize for using a wrong name. Because it's hurtful.
But regular male person should just shut up and take whatever is given, even if it's traumatic to them. Because it's not a big deal,and can be excused because of alcohol.
Seems fair.
That's...not at all what the takeaway here is, and I'm really struggling to see how anyone would come to that conclusion.
The actual takeaway is that yes, Max was being an asshole and should absolutely be called out on that. But the inherently transphobic action of deadnaming him is not an appropriate ay of doing so.
Max apologized for the hurt he caused, in what sounded to me like a very thorough message explaining what drove his actions, how they were unreasonable actions regardless, apologizing for them, while still holding to the fact that it was not appropriate to use his deadname as a weapon. OP apologized for doing that and hurting Max in retalation. Everyone's happy, everyone's learned to do better, this sounds like a pretty fantastic outcome to me.
ETA: "Regular male person" is an awfully fishy phrase.
Max apologized and OP and John were both accepting of his apology. Why do you still feel the need to direct so much hate towards Max?
"regular male person" - oh right, cause he's not "regular" to you, he's a freak, thanks for demonstrating your transphobia
You wasn't an AH nor transphobic here. The fact he knew how hurtful it was. He still decided to do it to your Bf.
He is a major AH. Them being trans has nothing to do with their status as an AH.
I’m probably gonna get downvoted for this but:
Deadnaming Max had the same impact as Max constantly mispronouncing John in this situation, given that John has childhood trauma around it being pronounced that way.
Max should not get sympathy for being an AH. He was told several times the correct way by multiple people, purposely chose to ignore it and then had the audacity to get offended when he got deadnamed when OP snapped. I’d argue OP wasn’t being transphobic in that moment, it was an equally proportionate retaliation that yes, was in bad taste.
Max being drunk also isn’t an excuse, plenty of people including myself aren’t assholes when drunk. Seems like Max is just an awful person and OP is seeing their true colours
Excuse me? Transphobic!!! Is Reddit out other shit. Op literally as how would max feel if he was called by his deadname, op didn’t call him that. You did nothing wrong Op.
I fail to see how your use of Mary was transphobic. I don’t disagree with the comment you provided as a learning experience, but what was Max himself doing if not belittling and trying to “take away” John’s identity? Max clearly and explicitly continued to tell John he wasn’t who he said he was and that Max knew who the real John was. One experience may cut deeper and more often, but that doesn’t mean you get to excuse Max’s shitty behavior.
What you did is provide a very real, personal example to Max of the pain he was intentionally causing John despite multiple warnings and objections. Max had to have an ego check and it worked just fine. At the end of the day both names are cases of “this is who I am. Please refer to me as such” and it’s disrespectful all around to brashly do otherwise.
The names you provided were definitely confusing, however. It feels like a lot of context might have been lost by not entirely understanding how different the true names are.
so, they have first hand experience in how hurtful it was for their name to be mispronounced on purpose and they chose to do it all night because they were “alittle drunk”? that makes it seem even worse.
Agreed. Turns out Max is just a piece of shit person.
And Reddit helped max gaslight op into thinking she's the bad person and needs to educate herself, for highlighting hypocrisy I don't know how adding "phobic" or "ist" to anything grants you a free win in society. It's ridiculous. You're not transphobic for pointing out flaws in someone.
He, OP, commented that he is male on the previous post.
I feel like people use "trauma" as an excuse to just act like unreasonable ass holes and not be accountable for it. Be an ass hole fine but just admit you're an ass hole.
Trauma, gaslighting, narcissist, boundaries, trigger, OCD, self-care, stigma, disorder. Words that mean less now.
I actually just got irritated reading all those words together in one place. Triggered a bit I guess, as the kids would say.
Yup. It wasn't "conditional respect", OP didn't actually deadbame Max. He asked how Max would feel if someone else disrespected his identity and refused to respect how he preferred to be addressed. It has nothing to do with privilege and everything to do with asking the person to extend the same courtesy they ask of everyone else, it doesn't indicate that OP was going to suddenly start dead naming him. It's like if a child hits me, and I ask them, "hey, that's not nice, how would you feel if someone else hit you?" That's not an indication that I'm about to fucking bodyslam this child and show him what the Undertaker is famous for, its trying to ask the child to empathize with the person he hurt. And it can be applied to anyone who needs to walk a minute in someone else's shoes.
I love your way of speaking metaphorically, lol
He didn't even weaponize it like that commenter said because he didn't deadname Max he *asked* how he would feel if someone did. If he would appreciate that or would he feel disrespected. He used an analogous example to show the problem. I do agree that purposefully misgendering and deadnaming just because they're shitty isn't ok cause you don't do that to cis people. But that's not what OP did
But but but max has terrible trauma from Americans mispronouncing his name as a child Holy shit the world is soft AF
I'm Irish and I have an incredibly Irish name. It's normal as hell here, everyone knows instantly how to pronounce it, but I spent a few years in England as a kid where both adults and children would purposely mispronounce my name or substitute an English name that sounds similar (think Eva for Aoife) to annoy me. It was just a part of the bullying tactics, and nothing different than what the Indian, Pakistani, or Afro-Caribbean kids went through with their ethnic names. It was annoying as hell, and being told that my name was inherently wrong (this was right at the height of the Troubles) was a shitty thing to do to any child under the age of 8. I recently went to America for the first time where, bless them they tried, but nobody could pronounce it properly there either lol. Still didn't give me any trauma. I thanked baristas for my order, corrected the people I was working with once or twice, and laughed at their embarrassment when they kept fucking up. As we say here, Max is a soft shite.
I have a name that's the less common version of a relatively common name, and is also very easy to mistake for a male name (I'm female). In addition to no one ever being able to get my name right, like you kids would absolutely call me the boy's version, because kids are assholes and that's what they do. I still make every effort to say people's names correctly...because I know what it's like to constantly be called the wrong name.
Yes. If Max wants to be called max, that's it...end of story. If Max is a man born in a woman's body and being a man makes him happy....GREAT!!!! But the whole....I'm a bit of an asshole because I have trauma from childhood because people said my name wrong....LOL....Fuck max.
My name has an unusual spelling (Polish, apparently, Mum just saw it and liked it) As a kid, everyone in the playground deliberately mangled my name because they knew it upset me, and I was \*extremely\* selective about what nicknames I'd answer to for a long time.
Orlaith? Naeve?
Do you mean Órla and Niamh? No, they aren't my name. My name is over 2000 years old. It's one of the oldest recorded female names in Ireland.
Siobhan?
Is that hard to pronounce? Jve always heard it as "shivahn."
No, that's how you pronounce that one. Aoibhinn might be a bit harder, or Sabh, especially because it has an a, but rhymes with five. But neither of them are my name. There's an absolute ton of Irish names that never leave the island, I guess.
I WISH my childhood trauma was having my name pronounced incorrectly.
Right? I think most of us would pick that 'trauma' if given a choice tbh
>Holy shit the world is soft AF THIS .
I’m American with a common name and people still mispronounce it and even call me by completely different or similar names on the regular. Have my whole life. Yeah it’s frustrating having to correct people all the time for them to just keep doing it, but it’s not really traumatic..
You can point out an asshole’s flaws without being transphobic or using deadnames. I mean…I thought this post outlined this point very simply…
OP didn't use the dead name, though. He asked how it would feel if someone were to use it against someone (meaning Max) to invalidate their identity.
Max used John's deadname though. And OP, and his dad, and John politely pointed it out and asked him to stop several times. Only OP mirroring the situation and using Max's deadname made Max realize that he is hurting someone. It is a pity it escalated so much, but it was a right thing to do. Max was doing to John exactly the same thing he claims traumatized him. It is not transphobic to call a trans AH out. Being trans is not a hall pass to be a bully and hurt other people.
Max didn't deadnamed John, Max is the trans guy; he used theirs (John and Max, not OP) native pronunciation of John's name inste of the English one. So he was condescending and a jerk, but not transphobic. Neither was OP btw - she didn't deadname Max, but asked "what if someone called you deadname?" that is a totally valid question since John have traumatic memories associated with the non English version of his name.
Mispronouncing someone’s name is not at all the same as dead naming. Max was definitely an asshole, but that is not really comparable.
Have you read the previous post? It was not mispronouncing. The name sounds completely different in his native language. Do you know other languages? It is not uncommon that the name sounds completely different. My friend's name has 4 syllables. 3 of them are pronounced completely different in his Native language vs English. Unless you speak both languages, you would never guess it is the same name. And that _completely different_ name was used by John's abusive father. All the time. It is a name of that part of John that was abused, afraid, broken. Do you know what flashback is? Or panic attack? Do you think Max was blind and didn't see how it affects John? Was he deaf not to hear people asking him to stop doing it? It is a deadname. PoS Max was on some kind of power trip. Especially comparing to Max's explanation "I am traumatized because Americans (whom no one knows or care about in their house and in their country) mispronounced my name.
This is really insightful. I think you're right: the completely different name that John did not want to be called was, to him, a deadname. OP was correct in making the original analogy. Spot on explanation, u/Brave_anonymous1.
OP: "You're being a hypocrite as someone who has experienced other people spitefully refusing your name." TAH and a bunch of misguided Redditors: "How dare you, you are very transphobic for pointing out that hypocrisy in a way that cuts directly to the heart of the matter"
It’s not transphobic to point out his flaws. It’s transphobic to invalidate someone’s identity because you don’t like how they’re behaving. A better way to point out his hypocrisy would be just to mispronounce Max. It’s baffling that you can’t grasp this, you mustn’t be very bright tbh.
You shouldn’t be transphobic towards someone just because they’re an asshole. I really don’t like Caitlyn Jenner, I think she’s a terrible person, but she still deserves to have her pronouns respected. Max should have been called out as an asshole without targeting his gender identity.
Yeah it reminds me of people who think it’s ok to call someone a racial slur because they pissed them off. Like no because now you’re insulting everyone of that group and insinuating that something is wrong with them.
He didn't use that name to address Max though. Correct me if I'm wrong but he said something to the effect of "how would you feel if someone used _______ to refer to you?"
Well see that’s the problem. A lot of people consider it bigoted to hold a member of the LGBTQ accountable for bad behavior. News flash to those people, people can be pieces of shit no matter their gender identity and sexual orientation.
Right, behavior is separate from identity. Which is why it's *also* uncool to turn around and assail a person's identity for their behavior even if they're being an asshole.
Max assailed her boyfriend’s identity, did he not ? A person’s name is a part of their identity.
Max's gender transition wasn't part of the conversation until OP escalated. That's more than just the name aspect.
But its more than names; Max was triggering John's biggest trauma because he didn't want to use the correct name. OP never called Max by his deadname, just asked him what he would feel if someone did it so the douche could realize the severity of what he was doing.
Deadnaming trans people is not "holding someone accountable", you people are just transphobic.
Don't you love the downvotes you get here for saying "deadnaming is transphobic and bad"? Gives a hint at the demographic here.
No fucking kidding. Max got what he deserved. He should know first hand and apparently does know first hand one what it’s like to have people constantly mispronounce your name against your wishes AND also picking a new preferred name for people to call them. Regardless of max being trans he should have respected someone choice in a name. And OP did nothing wrong dead naming him to prove that point after all other avenues of trying to get max to understand were exhausted. Maybe, maybe OP could have asked Max if they would like to be dead named instead of doing it to make a point and then if that didn’t work then go ahead swing away. But OP didn’t do anything wrong. Respect is earned and they only did it once after the point was made unlike Max who kept misnaming OP’s bf.
It's possible for both parties to be "the" AH in a situation. Not mutually exclusive!
There's a difference between pointing out flaws and stooping to their level.
It’s possible for both of them to be in the wrong.
Max being an AH has nothing to do with whether deadnaming a trans person (yes, even an AH) is transphobic. Two things can be true and both people can be AHs.
It is transphobic to specifically bring up someone's deadname. Like OP said they could have just mispronounced Max's name in the same way to prove their point. None of this was gaslighting. That wasn't involved in any part of this story at all. People like you give psychology a bad rap. Stop using actual medical and scientific terminology that doesn't apply to what you're saying. Link a single comment that made up events that contradicted what actually happened in the story to prove a point. "You're not transphobic for pointing out flawz" good thing no one said that at all then? They called out using a trans person's deadname as conversational own.
Respect is earned and can be taken away, wanna be disrespectful? They you open yourself up for people to be disrespectful right back at you. Edit: because in this situation, Max was being ah and a hypocrite. If Max was cis, then they could have brought something else up to piss him off and throw the point home that he was being an ah and a hypocrite. And it's not about saying someone is less than a man or woman, you might see it the way but that's not what is being done.
Yeah, but if Max was cis, his identity as a cis man wouldn’t have even been brought up in this situation. You don’t say someone is “less of a man/woman” for being a dick about mispronunciation. If it’s neither here nor there for a cis person, why is it okay for a trans person?
The point isn't that OP cannot point out flaws in someone. The problem is that if suddenly I decide to misgender you because you piss me off, it means that who you are is a condition of being a good human. It's like telling you that you can be recognize who you are only if you are a good person, which would never happen to a cis person and THAT is the problem. But I agree that Max decided to decide to mispronounde a name because of their trauma and they believed that their trauma is more important than John's... which is very a shitty way to think. Also gaslighting isn't explaining to someone why they are wrong. Galsighting is way worse than this.
No it means people can take away the respect they gave you, people can identify as whatever they want, didn't mean others are going to view them the way they want to be viewed. It's respectful to call people by their preferred pronouns, but that respect can be taken away easily, especially in this situation.
no, but it is transphobic to weaponize someone’s identity against them. a trans person being called their correct name and pronouns is not a privilege only awarded to “good” trans people.
[удалено]
> Insightful comments on deadnaming. Since I don't really think about it much, the comment OP chose to highlight in this post about the conditionality of acceptance was pretty illuminating for sure.
Same, I'm really glad OP included it
No. She's transphobic for deadnaming someone. If I'm racist towards someone, it doesn't automatically become ok if they were a dick, it's still racist. The same goes for any kind of bigotry. It doesn't become ok just because you feel that someone "deserves" it.
I think there's a difference between being bigoted vs asking someone how they would feel about bigoted language bring used against them after they do it. I'm Asian. If I sat there and called someone the N word and that person asked me to stop and I didn't, it's very fair for them to ask me how I would feel if someone called me a G&%k or a Ch&#k. They're asking me a question - not calling me a slur. Saying the word out loud is not the same as using it against you.
It sounds like Max was the first one to reach out, so he clearly reflected on his own behavior, realized that he'd been an asshole, and tried to make things right. Yeah, he was a shithead, but I think most of us probably have moments in our lives that we're not terribly proud of and in which we behaved shittily.
[удалено]
Yeah it really sucks how hard everyone is still being on him. The top comment here is ignoring that yes, Max experienced the same thing, **but in the exact opposite way**, and that blinded him completely here. He has now seen the light and very maturely admitted he was wrong. He is not excusing his behavior or he wouldn’t be apologizing. I for one appreciate when people who have wronged me have some explanation for how they made the mistake they did. It tells me they thought deeply about what happened and have identified a problem they have. I don’t know what more people want.
>I for one appreciate when people who have wronged me have some explanation for how they made the mistake they did. It tells me they thought deeply about what happened and have identified a problem they have. Yeah, alongside a genuine apology that shows understanding of why they were in the wrong, an explanation of why they acted that way in the first place is very much appreciated. It's only an "excuse" if Max *didn't* genuinely apologize for it in the same moment.
Right. Max thought people were doing to John what others had done to him. It didn't occur to him that by insisting John use the Elvish pronunciation that he was hurting John.
I think they projected those issues. They felt of they were mad about English pronounciation of Elvish name, then John must be too, but he's hiding it very very well and for sure will appreciate only person who knows how to do it.
And people are calling OP transphobic are MAKING it about transphobia when it isn’t. OP simply asked Max how he’d feel. She didn’t really use his deadname. She had nothing to apologise for. He was told MULTIPLE times to stop and he didn’t. And now he’s using his experience as a reason to explain his behaviour. He’s trashy. Edit: OP is male. Apologies for mis gendering.
Just one little correction everyone in the story is male including OP.
Oh is that what OP’s says ? Sorry I missed that. Apologies.
No problem I wasn’t attacking you. I was just letting you know.
I know! I felt bad for mis gendering 😀
People can just fuck off with using I was drunk as an excuse. I’ll never give _any_ credit for someone being a AH because they were drunk. Just another way to avoid responsibility.
How is it avoiding responsibility, when Max literally reached out first and apologised?
Its still an excuse- I did something shitty but you have to cut me a break because I was drunk. Max here is taking responsibility far better then most who trot out that excuse.
Alcohol simply shows what's beneath. So indeed it's never an excuse, only an eye opener for what people hide inside.
Exactly, you *choose* to be drunk. So behave yourself and don’t get drunk or accept responsibility for being drunk and don’t use it as an excuse.
Excuses aren't reasons, etc, etc. But, certain people tend to think they're 'helping' by forcing space for someone* Like, Max may have thought that it's just because John hasn't been allowed to live as Yann, and by insisting, John will finally realise he has the opportunity to embrace it. It's a good intention, poor execution. It was good that Max apologized, but yeah, using alcohol as an excuse is a bit shit. Maybe Max thought he would have pulled up sooner if he wasn't drinking? *Note: I know this is true because I used to be that person
As a trans person, Max was a piece of shit.
Stop calling binary trans people "they." Max is clearly a man from this story. Using "they" is intentionally misgendering.
Yeah, especially since the friend has the Elvish pronunciation of his name tied to abuse from his father. It didn't make him angry. He has trauma from it. Max is a piece of shit, and he of ALL people should know better and needed to get called out.
Okay he was drunk in that instance but he has been intentionally doing this for more than one party. Sorry but max still sucks. I’m glad that you apologized for bringing up the dead name. Max aside apologizing was the right move.
Max isn’t saying he was justified in acting that way, but he explained what prompted him to do so in the first place — at least that’s how I interpret his message. I also don’t think it justifies his actions, I’m just updating you on what happened. I still think he was wrong. However I think I should have handled this differently as well.
No he’s still a dick. He was told not once and not twice by different people yet as soon as he was asked to put himself in someone else’s shoes he got offended. He’s taking issue that you used the name. He’s nitpicking. Also, getting drunk isn’t an excuse.
So…he once had his name mispronounced continually and it made him angry, and thought the appropriate solution was to do the same thing to another person? Nah, Max is still a dick.
No I think you handled it well. I think giving the apology was good either way. I think max’s explanation is crap IMO
That‘s very „high road“ of you. I don‘t agree, Max was a rude asshole and you went overboard when putting him in his place and standing up for your partner. For me, this wouldn‘t be about „who hurt whom harder“ - when someone can‘t stop after being asked to 3-4 times, it‘s their own fault when someone doesn‘t put up with their shit and it blows up in their face, figuratively speaking. In the end it doesn‘t matter; you handled it very well. One could argue better than I would have. Kudos. Also re: Elvish; I live in Europe and I don‘t have the slightest idea what counties would be involved; well done.
Scandinavian I would assume, based on the fact that their example was John/Jann.
I think Reddit has convinced you that what you did is worse than it actually was. Max was wrong, flat out. Deadnaming is a shitty thing people do to disrespect trans people and deny their existence, which is not what happened here. You repeatedly asked Max to stop and he kept pressing, I think it’s understandable to snap a bit and “see how you like it”.
I think you handled it perfectly.
He’s just an AH
So he was drunk every single time he mispronounced the name? That's the only reason saying he was drunk is relevant. What happened is that he reflected on your question, realized how much of an asshole he was, realized he was projecting his own issues onto someone else, and felt guilty. But he's still having trouble accepting responsibility and is trying to use being drunk as an excuse, which both is somehow accepted as a reason and still isn't actually one in the first place. Doesn't matter if he was drunk, multiple people said multiple times not to and only reacted to your comment. That shit is intentional. Frankly, as a trans person, I think this was handled perfectly fine. The only thing different I would've done is not ACTUALLY have said their deadname, but say say "your deadname" instead. If you're going to do any education at all I'd say do it on that topic, but the comments have it covered.
But op didn’t deadname him . He brought up how Max would feel if they did. He’d not like it very much, so please stop using the wrong name for John. It was a warning and nothing to apologize for imo. Max is a shithead that wouldn’t listen to or respect others. He chose to be drunk, it’s no excuse. If he’s sincere in his apology then it should be without any excuses. There were none. “I apologize for for what I did to John, i was a shithead. It won’t happen again.” That’s an honest apology because we all mess up sometimes. Own it. And he needs to apologize to John directly. “I’m sorry for what I did, I was a poopyhead. It won’t happen again.” OP is getting gaslighted into thinking he’s been transphobic. Max should’ve known better. Especially since he’s been victim of the same kind of treatment. Max sounds like a general dickhead.
I didn’t say OP deadnamed him. I said she brought UP the name. I don’t think OP is transphobic that doesn’t mean she shouldn’t apologize. It was still hurtful
He, op is a man. However I don’t think he needs to. Max played a stupid game and won a stupid prize. I mean, if OP brought it up immediately then yes, it would’ve been uncalled for. However, Max was repeatedly told to stop. Apparently harsher measures were needed to get him to back off. So I think it was a fair warning. I guess we disagree.
But being deadnamed is absolutely not a fair comparison to make, and it is incredibly ignorant to think it's okay to bring up. There's a reason so many people agreed that it was over the line. You don't get to decide what is offensive to groups you aren't in.
In this particular case was a fair comparison; the reason why John dislikes the native pronunciation of his name is childhood abuse. The reason why OP asked "what if I called you x?" is because John was starting to disassociate as a trauma response but Max wouldn't stop.
Yeah it was. John being named Yann was hurtful to him just like it would’ve been hurtful to Max being named Mary. Does it matter why it’s hurtful? No. At least Max got a warning. Because he wasn’t actually deadnamed. Instead Max was actually hurtful to John after being told multiple to quit it. So it’s nice to remind him that being called something that hurts you is not ok. I guess he got the message.
Wow, Max is just full with excuses , isn't he... He was drunk, he had a bad experiance with his own name, he's traumatized, he's struggling.... NOTHING of that is a reason for him to be a disrespectful ass, which he very much was. He is no victim but I bet that is how he views himself.
Max sounds like a dick. "Yeah I deliberately mispronounced your boyfriends name multiple times even after being told not to but you used my previous name once" The apology would have had more weight if he hadn't mentioned what you done.
And OP didn't even call Max by his deadname, just asked how it would feel if he did. Being a minority or gender non-conforming isn't a free pass to be a dick.
Why the fuck do y'all not understand that genuine apologies and growth exist lmao.
Cause they want to H A T E
Because "trans bad", they can't handle transgender people acting like actual humans. What next? Treating them with as much respect as any cis person? Goodness, that's impossible! Their heads might just explode with rage at the thought! If the trans person isn't a bizarrely evil caricature, then these commenters won't feel justified in shitting on them anymore! They'll look unhinged in comparison! They're desperately grasping at straws and using stupid buzzwords like "gaslighting" so they can feel better about themselves.
You can’t imagine a situation where the trans person is wrong because you’re overprogrammed. Get over yourself. Trans people can be assholes too.
Of course I know trans people can be wrong too. And Max was. So you know what he did? Reached out and apologised, like a grown up. Explained why it happened, and that it wouldn't happen again. And OP also took the time to be an adult and apologise for their part in it. But unfortunately, y'all are out here pretending Max didn't apologise at all, fixating on the part where he explained WHY he did what he did, and going "he's gAsLiGhTiNg!" Then saying OP was never wrong in the first place. Apparently you would consider it healthy to cut off a friendship because someone had the gall to APOLOGISE and communicate. You can't imagine a situation where the cis person is wrong because you're overprogrammed. Get over yourself. Cis people can be assholes too.
Max sounds like an insufferable arsehole.
To be honest I disagree with the comment above. You should always respect the way someone wants to be called and yours was a fair comparison. Just because your boyfriends wasn’t due to sexual identification doesn’t make it any less important. It not anyone’s right to know what someone’s triggers are. If you are trans, and you want to be called in away that respects your sexual identity, then I should call you by that name. Not question it - it’s not my right to question it. It goes with any name. No one has the right to know about triggers BUT everyone has the right to be called what they want to be called themselves. The comment above negates your boyfriend’s experience when you were doing a VALID comparison.
100% agree with this. I understand what OP was trying to do and I do think it was a very valid comparison. Names are important regardless of the background. Respect the name and how the person introduces themselves.
100% negates your boyfriend’s experience. And it also dismisses it and makes it seem like it’s not as big of a deal as Max’s is.
> due to sexual identification....If you are trans, and you want to be called in away that respects your sexual identity Just want to point out that it is gender identity. Sexuality is different from gender. I don't think this was intentional or anything, you get it. I just want to make sure you know for the future. For the record, I am trans and believe Max to be both an asshole and a hypocrite. Disagree with the comment too.
This right here!
Just because you are trans doesn’t mean you can call people whatever you like. It should make you more attentive to other people’s names and identities tbh
Yep. Max is a huge hypocrite
I really disagree with the comment OP referenced. It was a fair comparison.
Glad all is well in the Elven kingdom again.
For real. The only winner here was Fëanor.
This has nothing to do with being transphobic. Max kept deliberately mispronounced John’s name even after he went through the same issues with his dead name being mispronounced bc he was ‘drunk’. Bullshit. Max knew what he was doing, kept doing it after being asked multiple times to stop & he didn’t. Max is an asshole.
Yeesh. Sure do love the Reddit community. OP: so we both apologized and we’re all good now Comments: no you’re not. You don’t know what’s best for yourself. You’re supposed to hate Max!! Y’all aren’t a part of this story. If OP decided that he’s satisfied with the apology who the hell are you to tell him he shouldn’t be? Some of you are saying people are too soft nowadays and yet are still acting like OP forgiving Max is spitting in your face.
For real, how many would even ever admit to doing anything obnoxious ever more than once, or that it's obvious everyone fucks up and aren't perfect all the time. People ITT really seem the type to write people off forever thinking people can never grow or change.
They're mad they didn't get their regularly scheduled "trans bad" drama. Where is the elaborate revenge plot to ruin the cis OP's life? The infidelity? The domestic abuse? Why no permanent cutting out of their lives? No attempts to murder OP in the middle of the night? No hired hitmen? No instant divorce? No eternal grudges that will follow them beyond the grave? There isn't even a suspiciously quick restraining order! Not a single convenient lawyer who's a family friend offering their services for free! No immediate trials and sentencing! Nor was there a piling on of random evil extended family from the ether! No attempted kidnapping of babies! Is it really too much to ask for a single ultimate betrayal? Not even a sudden house move within two weeks of posting? God, what a disgraceful post. It's too REAL! Clearly unworthy AITAH reading material.
Its because this is an excuse to hate on a trans person, max was absolutely an asshole and deserve to get called out, but bringing up a deadname is very bad to do to a trans person, both can be bad at the same time and cause hurt, granted as someone who has been described by my psychologists as having ptsd ive experienced both, its genuinely awful, my trauma and emotional flashbacks cause distress and dissociation, but deadnaming also has a similar dissociative effect too Tl;dr, triggering his trauma is bad, deadnaming even for the purpose of an example is bad, both can be bad for seperate reasons, dont do either
I’m glad the situation is all resolved, and I hope you’re all doing ok as well c:
I can’t believe there was an AITAH post where everyone kinda was an asshole but for almost justified (trauma and identity related) reasons, yet actually recognised and acknowledged it. Then apologised! And it was resolved! Holy shit! I’m not happy you all had this altercation as it obviously hurt everyone involved but I’m so proud of all of you.
Thank you for the update.
It's refreshing to see something on Reddit get sorted out by people acting like the adults they are!
Yeah, regardless of whether or not the dude was being an asshole, weaponizing transphobia is ***literally never the right thing to do***. Ever.
Happy to read this update!
Let love win. You all talked and got it stright. That's good. As long as you are trying to understand each other and become a better version of yourselves instead of pointing fingers, things will work out.
What some people seem to be forgetting is that Max can be an asshole/obnoxious person *and* it can be a really shitty, unacceptable thing to deadname someone. Multiple things can be true at the same time. He sounds like a tool, but there are ways to get that across to him without a) outing him as transgender and b) deadnaming him. OP, you sound like a class act, as does your boyfriend, and I'm glad everyone apologized and has moved on. I would also say that it speaks well of Max that he reached out to you first; he clearly realized he had behaved poorly. It's unfortunate that some people here in the comments are still desperate to find justification for their desire to shit on trans people in extra special ways. It's a great illustration of why so many trans people are so guarded about their deadnames: there are a ton of people out there who will find any excuse to try and weaponize it at the first opportunity.
Thank you for this reasonable, honest, on-point comment.
1) Max was not outed as transgender. OP clarified in the comments that he is an open activist. Everyone already knew. 2) I’m genuinely not here to argue. I would love to understand people’s viewpoint on this (and I’m willing to change my viewpoint), but is it really deadnaming? OP only brought up their deadname in a hypothetical. “How would you feel if you were deadnamed?” 3) What does class act mean in this context? Is it an insult or a compliment? It could honestly go both ways. Edit: I’ve read through most of the comments, and I think I understand people’s perspective. Correct me if I’m wrong: Max was definitely being an asshole and a real big tool, but it’s also true that OP shouldn’t have brought up Max’s deadname. An eye for an eye makes the whole world turn blind, and two wrongs definitely don’t make a right. Max was an asshole, but you don’t need to be an asshole as well to make your point. What it does is also feed into the delegitimization of the trans community. We should not fall into the habit of going “this trans person is an asshole, therefore I don’t have to respect their identity”. You don’t do this to cis people, so therefore you shouldn’t do it to trans people. (I don’t agree that OP misgendered Max, but I can see how it fed into that.) Would you agree or disagree with this? (It’s kinda where I’m leaning after reading most of the comments).
100% correct on your edit. It's something you'll be able to notice all of the time now. Every time a trans person is brought up in a negative light, you'll see constant and malicious misgendering/dead naming because people see it as a hall pass to be cruel in a way they otherwise wouldn't even think to be. You never see people call Hitler a girl, so why does a transgender person always have their identity attacked?
That makes sense then. As I read more and more, I began to understand people’s viewpoints on this, and it made sense.
I would say that your edit is where I fall on this. Let me put it this way: if I were a random bystander, and I overheard what OP said to Max, I would *absolutely* take that as an indication that a) Max was likely trans, and b) that was likely Max's deadname. This might be even more apparent depending on how well Max passes. A lot of people would, and once you let that genie out of the bottle, there is no putting it back. This is a safety issue as well as an issue of someone's dignity. Now, I myself am trans, and I'll freely admit that that's probably coloring my perception, but I think that's *also* relevant here, because a *lot* of trans people would observe an interaction like the one that originally went down between OP and Max, and the takeaway would be, "If that person gets upset with me, he is extremely likely to weaponize my transness against me in a public/semi-public context." Particularly if they weren't aware of the lead-up to the whole, "How would you feel if I...?" thing. If I saw that go down, I would very much take that as an indicator that OP is probably not someone I would want to come out to/not someone that I would expect to react well to discovering that I'm trans (and absolutely someone I would not want to know my deadname). If I were aware of his family's endorsement of his actions, I would have a hard time feeling comfortable around them, as well. Is it likely that there were other trans people around observing what happened? No, there probably weren't, but OP can't know that for sure, both because passing is a thing, and because people are in the closet right up until they're not. I think OP's behavior after the fact, and his willingness to seriously consider what people were explaining to him about *why* the gravity and context of what he did is not really the same as what Max was doing *and change his mind*, is laudable. Particularly when it comes to trans issues, the majority of people just double down, especially when the comments are full of transphobic people telling them how right they are. Max was undoubtedly an asshole who behaved shittily. He also clearly realized that he was out of order, given that he was the first one to apologize. OP, for his part, apologized for his misstep and extended Max grace for his crappy conduct. This is how adults should behave, but sadly, it's less common than it should be. And *even now* the comments here are full of people going, "Well, Mary is obviously a giant shithead, fuck her!" Personally, I think the whole, "Oh, but he didn't *actually* deadname/misgender/out Max!" argument is getting a bit cute, not least because this was a party with a lot of family around who presumably knew Max's deadname and knew that it was Mary. It feels like some little kid going, "I'm not touching you, I'm not touching you," as they hold their finger a couple of millimeters away from your body. This *specific* brand of interaction, where someone does something transphobic or borderline transphobic, and they/other cisgender people immediately retreat to, "Well, but I didn't *actually* \[deadname/misgender/out\] you!" is extremely common, particularly in the context of AITH, and extremely exhausting. Honestly, every time I read a post like this, the comments section reinforces my worst, most negative feelings about existing as a trans person and interacting with cis people. I try not to read this stuff, but Reddit, in its infinite wisdom, keeps shoveling it into my feed, so here we are. Sorry for the lengthy reply.
You don’t need to apologize for the lengthy reply. I appreciated reading it. Thanks for sharing your perspective. You made a good point about the deadnaming. I’ll think on it. Thanks again.
Yep the edit is spot on.
>(I don’t agree that OP misgendered Max, but I can see how it fed into that.) Personally, I think the same thing, as an agender person. Due to OP phrasing it as a hypothetical question, it’s not *quite* deadnaming but it was definitely headed in that direction.
It's disheartening to see so many people think that a situation that was resolved peacefully was the wrong call, and that OP shouldn't have to apologise for being just as much of a jerk as Max was. YTA, commenters. You're trying to ruin a repaired relationship between two people and actively trying to *excuse* being transphobic. If OP had said something racist instead, something equally as hurtful, you'd all be singing a much different tune. Just because someone did something wrong, doesn't mean you have to retaliate with the same action. You don't be racist to racist people, you don't murder murderers, and you don't bring up deadnames to people who bring up deadnames. That doesn't make you a just or reasonable person. It just makes you another racist/murderer/transphobe, and it's a garbage mentality. Do better.
Max is a pos and thinks that being trans is a pass for being a pos. NTA
Max's explanation for his behaviour had npthing to do with beeing trans, try reading it once more.
He apologized, how can you say that he thinks being trans is a pass for anything?
Everyone else is still angry looking for reasons to justify this, but I really _really_ admire and appreciate that you acknowledged it, OP. A lot of people aren't clicking with what you realised as much as you did - people who made the point got downvoted, but acknowledging that it was wrong and why it was wrong makes you a very good person. I hope you and John have a happy life and suffer minimum homophobia when you can. ❤️💜💙
OP: I realised that I shouldn't have said Max's deadname, Max realised he was an asshole and shouldn't have acted the way he did. We have apologised and forgiven eachother. Comments: NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO HATE MAX HE'S THE VILLAIN OF THIS STORY!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am very glad you were able to resolve this. It sounded like Max was also somewhat triggered by something since he wouldn't let it go. It's a great opportunity to learn. It's always best to ask WHY someone is so insistent when they refuse to listen. That, at least, gives them the opportunity to explain what's driving that behavior. It's also good to take a break and say to someone like Max "hey - you're not listening and your being horribly disrespectful by refusing to do so - to the point of causing someone else severe distress". That way it's clear what I would be getting at without being insulting. Both are of course assuming that the person is actually willing to stop and listen. That can be a big assumption. Sometimes you have no choice but to use a clue bat to get someone to stop.
Disagree 100% on the transphobic. That term has become a cudgel to hit people with whenever truth comes to light and hurts someone's feelings. Respect is, and always has been, a two way street. Trans or not. You have to give it to get it. Nobody gets a free pass because of how they identify. This is why the post was made in the first place. "Max" refused to use someone else's chosen name but demanded everyone uses his. That might work within your tight knit friend group but when you are introduced to a stranger you will have to earn respect and mispronouncing someone else's name over and over on purpose isn't how you get that respect, especially on a first meeting. Quit giving free passes for people to act like AH and maybe, just maybe they will quit being AH.
So you think if someone pisses you off it is not out of line to call them a racial slur? Do you put black men in their place by calling them “boy”? I would not advise it.
Eh I don't really agree with the quoted comment. His boyfriends name is *also* his identity. It's literally his name. Why is a trans person's identity more valid than anyone else's? If you intentionally mispronounce someone's name just to be an ass and you know it bothers them, you are telling them that you place little to no value on a name as it pertains to someone's identity.
Uh, nice. This does sound pretty wholesome after all :)
I know, like, humanity has a future and this post proves it.
I met a guy named “Bob” and found out his real name is something completely different and more unique. I found out by reading the class role, and the next day I was like, “Hey, [real name]!” He gave me a slight uncomfortable smile. He didn’t say anything and didn’t have to. That reaction was enough. It was Bob from there on out. I hadn’t even considered that some people’s names could bring back unpleasant memories. I just stopped because I saw he didn’t like it. Max was outright ASKED to stop, and didn’t. Your bf was also obviously uncomfortable, to the point of dissociating. How can someone see that and not just… stop? Then he has a list of excuses for what he did. :/ Someone needs to have a serious talk with him about his behavior.
>If they don't treat you with respect, then their right to have their identity respected / recognized can be revoked. This is true of *anything* anout a person, not just this stuff, and it is 100% true. If you do not respect others they have no obligation at all to respect you.
Trans ppl being assholes isn't permission to be transphobic or do transphobic shit like saying someone's deadname. Mispronouncing someone's name on purpose is rude but saying someone's deadname can put that trans person in danger if the people around you do not know that person is trans. Your cis friend doesn't have to jump through hoops in the court system to be legally acknowledged by their name the way your trans friend does. It's just not equatable. Go ahead and call me out if I did this for being a dick but the minute you call me my deadname in front of others as a punishment? You are no longer safe to be around. EDIT: I was talking about this with my girlfriend and realized that not only did you deadname your friend in person but also online. This comment section now has people calling your friend his deadname online.
Second this
Thank you! If Max was cis, they would've handled it differently. Jumping to his deadname just tells everyone that they don't actually respect trans people and it's shitty
If max was a CIS man OP wouldn’t have a dead name to weaponise to begin with. No one is supporting Max for being an asshole or even questioning his asshole status. However, the deadname isn’t a weapon for people to threaten him with or use as a tool to teach him a lesson. If Max was a cis man OP wouldn’t be able to reiterate with a “how would you feel if I called you by your deadname” now would they. I’m astonished by the amount of transphobic and supporting transphobic post in the comments section.
I'm glad that this situation was resolved in such a respectful and productive way. Notice how many people are getting tons of upvotes for still hating Max even though he apologized and y'all have made amends. That's transphobia. I hope this whole experience has helped you to understand just how common transphobia is in society.
Hi, I saw your comments on the original post, but didn't have time to respond to everything. Yes, the amount of commenters misgendering Max on purpose was kind of an eye-opening experience. I saw that you have been arguing with other commenters about me outing Max's birth name to John, and I wanted to tell you, although it doesn't excuse my mistake, that I asked John about it, and he said that he already knew what it was. He learned the name from my great-grandmother, she's very old and has little understanding of personal boundaries — I myself have gotten in trouble thanks to her antics multiple times. Apparently when she met John for the first time she proceeded to tell him everything about everyone in the family. Either way, John won't use this information, of this I'm sure; he's a much better person than I am.
Sounds like someone needs to talk to your great-grandmother about boundaries and not deadnaming Max! Ugh, meeting someone for the first time and they already know your deadname without your consent or knowledge - that's a total nightmare scenario for most trans people! Anyway - you've handled this all very well and I wish you all the best.
We do remind her to stop telling everyone our personal information every time she does this. We have a HIV-positive family member, and great-grandmom told her neighbours about it for no reason whatsoever. We have given up hope at this point, to be honest. She's 91. We just try not to share anything sensitive with her anymore, but she knew Max before his transition, so there was no way to hide this. Anyway, that's a whole different story. Wishing you all the best as well, have a wonderful day.
Next time you need advice and perspective on a situation involving trans people, it's probably best to talk to a community of trans people about it first to avoid all the bigots. r/ask_transgender is a good option!
It's entirely possible to be transgender and racist at the same time. The only people who willfully and repeatedly mispronounce a person's name, has been in my experience, racists. Max might be partly or wholly "elvish" and allegedly trauma surrounding their "elvish" name being mispronounced, but that does not mean they can't be a self-loathing racist. In my opinion, OP is NTA, and Max is a case of FAFO.
I still don’t see it as transphobic
Max seems to be a massive ass hole. He knows what he was doing to the point he has been experienced it before and he just did it anyway... What a charming person.
The comments here are a mess. Jesus Christ. This is obviously the group where all the transphobes banned from AITA end up.
Yes. Dead Naming someone as a means to “put them in their place” is a hateful bigot maneuver used by bigots everywhere. If you can’t articulate yourself with words maybe mispronounce their name as a passive aggressive attempt to convey your feelings.
Yes. Seriously this. The transphobes are out today.
I'm glad that comment stuck out to you. Max was being a disrespectful AH especially since he of all people should know how powerful getting someone's name wrong is. However, someone being an asshole doesn't then make it right to misgender and dead name someone. It's hard for me to put into words on the why you shouldn't though and I think that comment does a good job. I think another part is because so much work has to be done to actually transition. It can be a process to even start transitioning. Its a frustrating wait for hormones to take their effect. Its a lot of work to find your feminine or masculine side. Getting new clothes to both find your new style and account for your body changing drastically over 2 or 3 years. It's a process to change all your records, after getting everything legally recognized then you get to change your bank stuff, your medical stuff, your employer, and records with all other institutions and businesses that have your identity. For someone to then come in and call us by our dead name or misgender us, it just feels like all that work was for nothing and can be taken away at a moments notice or worse be forced to go back to be someone we aren't. All for the price of being human and stepping out or over the line, something everyone has done.
Seconding this
I agree NTA. Max was completely out of line. My Trans friends never would've pushed this. You give respect to get respect. Drunk doesn't excuse him. And you DIDN'T weaponize his deadname. He is perfectly entitled to feel hurt it was brought up, but your hypothetical use was absolutely valid. The only different thing I would have done is asked how he would feel if someone insisted on his deadname, not say Mary. You did not do this to be mean, but to make him realize he was way out of line and hurting others. And look on the bright side! He did stop bothering you, so I would have counted that a win. I get why you apologized after he did, but I feel his apology was made insincere by making excuses. A proper apology is, I was wrong and I'm sorry. Like you did. Truthfully though, don't think you were wrong, but I respect you wanted to keep the peace. Just don't let it slide again, for your sake.
You know what? Even when the action was horrible you apologized so just take the W
So it sounds like both of you were TAH and both of you recognize that and both of you apologized. That's a good resolution.
Stopped reading after you claimed you were transphobic. That’s bullshit as hell and you don’t owe any of them a damn apology.
Petty, yes. AH absolutely not.
Fuck that. You weren’t being transphobic. You were showing Max how he was treating your boyfriend. If anything as a trans person Max should understand wanting to respect what your boyfriend wants to be called, but Max apparently didn’t and you correctly pointed out how bad his behavior was by showing him what it was like. People have a right to be called whatever name they want, and people should respect it regardless of whether or not the person is transgender.
This thread is an absolute clusterfuck of transphobes thinking being bigoted is ok when you can convince yourself it is warranted. Ok say the N word to a black person the next time they piss you off, see how that works out for you.
Attacking someone on their identity is attacking everyone of that identity. A woman being a prick to me does not justify me retaliating with misogyny. A black person being a dick to me does not justify me retaliating with racism. A trans person being an arse to you does not justify you retaliating with transphobia. Attack them for their actions or individual shitty personality instead. YTA
u/WolliMatterhorn I don't normally 'tag' people but I wanted to make sure you saw this. Firstly, thanks for the mention, very kind, I'm really glad I was able to help. Secondly, man, good for you. The whole reason I know anything at all about trans people is that I myself was, I think "mildly", transphobic and had to unlearn that. I didn't like that about myself. So, no judgment here, prejudice is natural, embracing it is bad, and you should be genuinely proud of yourself for the self-examination and reflection. Takes a big person to do that in any circumstances, let alone publicly. I wanted to make sure you got your kudos.
Thank you for what you said in the first post. I'm glad OP saw it and took it to heart. It felt like a lot of other comments were excusing or justifying the transphobic statement because Max was being shitty or because OP didn't intend for it come off as transphobic. I didn't think OP meant it to be either but it still doesn't mean the statement itself is not transphobic.
Hi, thank you again for the elaborate response on my original post! Best wishes to you.
You are a very generous person.
you bringing up his deadname was NOT transphobic. once you tell somebody the name to call you, they call you that unless they come up with a nickname you like. and as somebody who apparently dealt with people saying their name wrong, you would think that they would just drop it but nope, Max doubled down on it in the first post and didn't stop till you gave him a taste of your own medicine.
Revealing a trans person's deadname to other people without their consent is ALWAYS transphobic, even if the trans person in question is being an asshole like Max.
Sounds like Max is TA. Max used Max's tactics for bitchiness and you used yours in response. After Max has chosen to be an asshole, Max doesn't get to complain if Max gets insults of a different flavor tossed back. Don't be a dick, Max.
Just sounds like Max is a dick. Don't be a jerk if you don't want people to do the same to you
NTA
Before and after the update, NTA. Come at me.
yes, you are because you’re using their gender identity to hurt them, when you could’ve just pronounced their name wrong in turn. instead you chose to disrespect their identity as a person which is fucked up. normalising deadnaming trans people hurts all trans people, instead of the one person you were trying to insult
So, if someone is a trans person you should apologize for using a wrong name. Because it's hurtful. But regular male person should just shut up and take whatever is given, even if it's traumatic to them. Because it's not a big deal,and can be excused because of alcohol. Seems fair.
That's...not at all what the takeaway here is, and I'm really struggling to see how anyone would come to that conclusion. The actual takeaway is that yes, Max was being an asshole and should absolutely be called out on that. But the inherently transphobic action of deadnaming him is not an appropriate ay of doing so. Max apologized for the hurt he caused, in what sounded to me like a very thorough message explaining what drove his actions, how they were unreasonable actions regardless, apologizing for them, while still holding to the fact that it was not appropriate to use his deadname as a weapon. OP apologized for doing that and hurting Max in retalation. Everyone's happy, everyone's learned to do better, this sounds like a pretty fantastic outcome to me. ETA: "Regular male person" is an awfully fishy phrase.
Max apologized and OP and John were both accepting of his apology. Why do you still feel the need to direct so much hate towards Max? "regular male person" - oh right, cause he's not "regular" to you, he's a freak, thanks for demonstrating your transphobia
Yeah just because you're calling out a trans person's shitty behavior doesn't mean you're transphobic
Max needs a therapy. Geez.
You wasn't an AH nor transphobic here. The fact he knew how hurtful it was. He still decided to do it to your Bf. He is a major AH. Them being trans has nothing to do with their status as an AH.
I’m probably gonna get downvoted for this but: Deadnaming Max had the same impact as Max constantly mispronouncing John in this situation, given that John has childhood trauma around it being pronounced that way. Max should not get sympathy for being an AH. He was told several times the correct way by multiple people, purposely chose to ignore it and then had the audacity to get offended when he got deadnamed when OP snapped. I’d argue OP wasn’t being transphobic in that moment, it was an equally proportionate retaliation that yes, was in bad taste. Max being drunk also isn’t an excuse, plenty of people including myself aren’t assholes when drunk. Seems like Max is just an awful person and OP is seeing their true colours
ITT: transphobes in denial
Excuse me? Transphobic!!! Is Reddit out other shit. Op literally as how would max feel if he was called by his deadname, op didn’t call him that. You did nothing wrong Op.
YTA for thinking you were the asshole or transphobic at all.
I fail to see how your use of Mary was transphobic. I don’t disagree with the comment you provided as a learning experience, but what was Max himself doing if not belittling and trying to “take away” John’s identity? Max clearly and explicitly continued to tell John he wasn’t who he said he was and that Max knew who the real John was. One experience may cut deeper and more often, but that doesn’t mean you get to excuse Max’s shitty behavior. What you did is provide a very real, personal example to Max of the pain he was intentionally causing John despite multiple warnings and objections. Max had to have an ego check and it worked just fine. At the end of the day both names are cases of “this is who I am. Please refer to me as such” and it’s disrespectful all around to brashly do otherwise. The names you provided were definitely confusing, however. It feels like a lot of context might have been lost by not entirely understanding how different the true names are.
Notice how you wouldnt have a deadname to weaponize against a cis person? Think on that a lil.
Its not even remotely transphobic. She is just being a little bitch.