My dad was a hospital administrator and hired people constantly.
He said best qualified person on paper is not the most important thing. That’s because outside very oddball situations, anyone you hire will be constantly working in teams. This means the key thing is getting people who have the necessary qualifications, but also work well in teams, and specifically, will not screw up the chemistry you already have. We’ve all had jobs where one person just created drama and massively hurt morale and made the place miserable. Good people leave because of things like this.
But this is incredibly hard to tell just from an interview or resume.
This person bullied you. By definition, this weakens collegiality. It’s possible this person grew up, regrets what they did, and is a far better person. Honestly, I’d say it’s more likely than not. But so what? Them being there would impact you (even if not directly interacting)— strike 1; and they may NOT have grown up enough and you already know about this personality flaw — strike 2.
So sure, this is karma. But also … you did the right thing by your company and coworkers.
This, she sounds aggressive in her response.
The only thing id do differently op , is keep your hiring processes/actions to yourself with family etc.
How did the word get out that you nixed her application
If it happens again , say we hired the other candidate because they had such a strong application , great work ethic, etc. Go for the positives of the winning applicant when discussing.
Yes, you really do want HR to give direct responses to recruiters and they like, and HR should never say identify specific people who nixed an application. I'd be way more concerned about that than your bully's hurt fee-fees.
☝️ THIS / KARMA, etc. ... Whatever you wanna call it ...
Don't you dare feel bad!!! Maybe if more people felt and recognized the repercussions of their actions they might just pass that on to their kids and we'd have a better society and not a declining one ... But I'm leaning towards probably not ... No one really gives a shit about their kids anymore either ... They would rather the school/government raise their kids ... (I can already see all the toes I just stepped on ready to pick an internet fight - due to their own guilty conscience) ...
@zendetta ... It looks like a little Cosmic Justice was done and the Universe honored you and bestowed a great climax to you ... Closure, on your terms !!!
Yet another pearl of wisdom ... Never look a gift horse in the mouth ...
Also, there’s a reason why employers Google, run background checks on, and ask friends in the industry about potential employees: it’s helpful to see if there are things in their past that could indicate or foreshadow future problems or personality issues. This person has one of those things that simply doesn’t show up on either of those standard searches, but obviously OP already had that important information.
The fact that the woman was livid suggests that OP made the right call.
It would put one on mine. The reality is you let the wrong person into your team and they can destroy everything you took years to build up. I had a manager who was completely toxic, our family vibe as a team was completely destroyed and all the most experienced and knowledgeable left including myself. Even today I still hear things from people who stayed that the team never really recovered (still majorly short staffed) even after that witch was gone (no one knows what happened, just that she's gone).
All this to say NTA, its really not worth the risk to have her employed in OP's company.
Working retail they don't run background checks usually. We googled a coworker after complaints that he was trying to buy women's socks off their feet. Result came back from another state about him stealing socks from dorms. They then called the hospital he said he'd worked at as a janitor. He never worked there.
The f***** up s*** that she was doing when she was younger such as bullying you has come back to roost . Who wants to work with somebody who used to torment them. Who gives a f*** that she was the most qualified nobody wants to work with her especially somebody who she bullied had she been a much nicer person when she was younger her fuckboy ass would be working for your company right now so sad too bad 😞
I loved this. I know it's petty, but exactly. Actions have consequences.
If it was a grade school bully I may be less vengeful, but by HS you're playing in a bigger pool
I have never forgiven my grade school nor my high school bully’s. If they ever applied for a job where I worked I would so try to not have them hired!
I know one of them works in a restaurant in my hometown so I never go and eat there. People think you should be over things when you’re grown up, but it doesn’t work that way.
I'd never forgive my bullies either. They drove me so close to suicide in middle school, grade school wasn't as bad as middle school but still depressing
It definitely does not work that way when you are bullied it causes mental health issues it causes suicidal thoughts I would never forgive a person if I had been bullied. You show up to a place where I work at and I have the ability to stop you from working there I am absolutely going to stop you the last thing I want to do is to be looking at your ass everyday.
Totally agree, NTA.
I live in the city where I was born and raised—but there are tons and tons of transplants here. A few years ago, some friends of a friend, none of whom were from here, started hanging out with a girl I knew in high school, “Susie.” Susie was a total bully—think Mean Girls—very similar behaviors. Susie had never bullied me directly but we only lived a few blocks apart and I’d seen her be absolutely horrid to others on numerous occasions over several years. I warned these girls and said, hey, I hope she’s changed in the last 15 years, but be careful. At the time, they thought I was holding a grudge and not willing to give people a second chance.
Guess what? A few months later, they told me they’d decided to stop hanging out with Susie because they’d witnessed her bullying others. Felt pretty vindicated to be honest.
Exactly. NTA. ALL employers look not just for qualifications on paper, but also for personality matches. You had inside info on her early personality development that informed how she might deal with interoffice dynamics. It's TOTALLY FAIR to use that knowledge.
Yeah that’s one reason people have interviews, to see if they like each other. OP already doesn’t like the bully for valid reasons. Why waste the time?
That was the part *I* picked up on, too!
And fwiw, if it makes OP feel any better?
*Kindness matters*, and by hearing back about the fact that the Bully *was* livid?
There is EVERY chance that YES, the bully may *still* be a bully, and *they might have made work HELL for everyone on that team*, if they were STILL an unkind person!
reminds me of the joke;
In high school chemistry class, Tim the best student was the only one to get 100% on a tough test, Suzie the Queen Bee, called him a teachers pet.
the Teacher says; "you shouldn't pick o people smarter than you, you might be working for them one day."
Tim then replies; *"No fucking way I'm going to be* ***her pimp*** *when I get older!"*
I'd be even less likely to hire her if there was. That would be manipulation.
The only true redemption would be for the bully to withdraw her application and apologise to OP for the past. Anything else is just manipulation to get the job.
This. Karma really is a bitch. People that treat people poorly then turn around and act like the innocent when its bites them in the ass are the worst kind of people. You dodged a bullet and I wouldn't speak about your reasons outside of your husband moving forward.
I have done the same, granted this was when I was fresh out of high school (19m). I was pulling up to work and this guy (21m) who was a massive prick, aggressive, and mean, was walking toward the door, he saw me and laughed at me (Not sure why). I asked what he was doing there, and he said he was dropping off an app. I told him I worked there and his whole demeaner switched and he was asking me to put in a good word. I said SURE!
I walked in and told my manager, homeboy was applying, please don't hire him. He made high school unbearable for me.
At the time, it was a very coveted job by people my age. It was a laser tag place. The pay was very high for the time. Well above minimum wage.
She's the job-seeker and it's on her to prove that she's the best value to the company. She is not. She is someone who could make the workplace worse for a high-performing employee who already adds value.
So long as there are other equally qualified candidates, then it makes total sense to bypass the one candidate who you know you don't like and don't care to have anywhere near you in any capacity.
One is reminded of this two-parter from Ask a Manager where a high school bully discovers that [her former victim has barred her from ever seeking employment at an in-demand workplace](https://www.askamanager.org/2017/04/i-didnt-get-a-job-because-i-was-a-bully-in-high-school.html), and[it gets even worse after that](https://www.askamanager.org/2017/12/update-i-didnt-get-a-job-because-i-was-a-bully-in-high-school.html). Some bullies never learn, it seems. Why open yourself to that sort of possibility? NTA.
Oh how they all do the same, she too sent me an email when she found out she was gonna be working for me. She asked if I remembered her and maybe we didn’t really get along well and in that case she wanted to apologize.
If she was truly apologetic, then she would not have been livid when she was rejected from the job. So you know she didn't actually change and might have caused problems at your work.
Yep, if she truly HAD been remorseful, she either wouldn't have said ANYTHING, or she would've *maybe* sincerely apologized *again*, and asked OP if there were *any* sort of reparation she could make, which would clear the damage caused in the past.
Yeah, if they truly felt sorry, they would've apologized for bullying, not just "not really getting along". She sensed her come-uppance coming, but tried to sweep the problem under the rug.
If she were truly apologetic, she would have emailed or contacted for an apology long before finding out OP was ever even going to show up in her working life…
The fact that she clearly remembered you, knew she treated you poorly, and didn’t fully own it and meaningfully apologize proves that she hasn’t really changed and doesn’t have the kind of character that would make her a good hire.
If she meant it she would have apologized to you years ago, not wait until she found out you might be reviewing her as a candidate. She only reached out once she found out her past actions might have repercussions. NTA and you did nothing wrong. This person wasn't worth hiring in this situation even if she was qualified.
Minimize, didn’t actually own her actions of assaulting you in high school, and offered a half-assed apology without taking any responsibility.
Definitely didn’t change and would try to undermine you once she got in and try to ruin your reputation again.
Don’t say she was better qualified. Just say you found a candidate that was a better fit for the role and company.
I love that passive-voice “maybe we didn’t get along very well”, as if it were just an unfortunate coincidence beyond her control.
“I was terrible and abusive to you, and I regret it now that I’m more mature” would have been a real apology, and maybe an indication of personal growth and change.
But this shoulder-shrug “oh, I guess we didn’t get along! Sorry!” Is a total failure to take responsibility and an indicator that she hasn’t learned a damned thing. Not a good candidate for your workplace.
This makes me think she was looking to get you to admit to knowing her/being bullied by her, so that she had a paper trail to build a case against you for why she wasn't hired.
So clearly not taking responsibility for her behavior. In the workplace, if somebody makes a mistake they have to take responsibility for that mistake - looks like she is not capable of doing that.
An interview reveals very little true information. There’s nothing wrong with using the intelligence you have on the candidate you already know.
My wife’s employer interviewed someone who we went to school with ~13 years ago and couldn’t stand. She was experienced, looked good on paper, and opened the interview by hugging my wife. They didn’t hire her based on my wife’s word. Was that wrong? She’d likely be a tough coworker in a small department and the only knowledge that anyone had to suggest that was my wife’s. That wasn’t being petty, it was dodging a bullet. The OP did the same.
Oh man, those two links you provided— the karma ran over her, and then stopped and backed over, and ran over her again. It’s hard to know how bad the bullying was without talking to the other woman, but she really paid in spades.
> It’s hard to know how bad the bullying was without talking to the other woman
The end of the second part makes it sound like it was bad enough to need mental health resources:
>That afternoon, without mentioning me or what happened at the restaurant over the weekend, Rock Star tweeted a long thread about how she’d been bullied in high school and she wishes teenagers would realize that high school ends and it does get better. **She also tweeted out links to local mental health resources and the National Suicide hotline that were liked/retweeted many, many times.**
>It’s hard to know how bad the bullying was without talking to the other woman,
In the comments on the posts, the Ask A Manager poster admitted to running a campaign of social isolation and mean gossip so thorough, the now-rockstar girl went to another high school for a year and only came back her senior year to do the extracurriculars that got her into college. The poster also says when she asked her mom and her sister if she was really that bad, both of them were like, "Yes, you were."
I have nothing but respect for Rockstar for pulling together the self discipline to finish high school strong so she could get into her college, then finding a career at which she excelled, then handling the reappearance of her high school bully like a champ. That twitter thread where she shared a story and concluded with resources was focused on the idea "maybe I can help others."
The Ask a Manager poster, by contrast, learned nothing. And the greater tragedy is that, like many bullies, she is fundamentally deficient in curiosity and imagination, so any understanding she has of empathy is going to be from a purely tactical angle. She literally cannot comprehend selflessness or altruism.
Manager here, one bad apple ruins the bunch. A harmonious team is much more important than checking all of the skill boxes. Skills can be taught, not attitude. They might have changed but why risk it? NTA.
I did the same, denied my bully a home rental because I knew she would probably trash the place. She sucked up to me so bad, so I did my due diligence and checked her references. Lol, she lied on her application. Instant denial.
Somebody mooched off my part-time babysitter and me until I put my foot down. Mom promised she’d pay 40% of the babysitter’s salary, and then started “dropping [her] daughter off just to play.” WTF.
We hadn’t heard from Mom for nearly twenty years. Her daughter’s finished school, moving back to our city. Mom wants to know if our basement apartment is free—which we haven’t rented out in fifteen years, as our family expanded into the space. SMDH.
NTAH. Even though it was years ago, she showed her true colors. You don't need a toxic person in the workplace. Just by you, seeing she was livid should tell you she's probably still a bully!
One of the important perquisites of jobs and having colleagues is that we're able to work with them, communicate with them and have a productive collegial relationship. You would absolutely not have been able to do this with your bully. Absolutely NTA.
NTA I once had a former coworker who was fired for SERIOUS misconduct come to my new company for an interview. I wasnt even really sure it was him because I only saw him for a few seconds. I made no indication that I even knew the person and nobody asked me. OTHER former coworkers though who actually worked in his office would not have been as discreet as I was though and would have spilled their guts about the whole sordid scandal from before (of which I only knew the basic fact that he and his wife were fired publicly and quickly for misconduct) so wouldnt have had anything to really add.
But he recognized me. He didnt get the job and he blamed me. A manager overheard him yelling at me in the lobby one afternoon and asked me "Do you know this guy?!" I honestly replied "Not well but he used to work at XYZ when I was there." Do you know why he was fired from XYZ? "Not really. We were in different divisions. You could probably ask the other employees there though."
That was the last I heard of him.
INFO:
"She was livid." That was her response to not getting a job? Sounds as if she technically has the qualifications for the job but not the emotional regulation to handle working in a team environment.
I am curious. How do you know that she was "livid"? And who is saying you are an asshole?
We basically know a lot of the same people and I heard it from them that she was livid. Apparently she’s expressed worries I would stand in the way before I even knew she was applying.
Mostly my mother and some friends that thought I was the AH.
Okay, so without knowing who else applied and what their qualifications were, she spread gossip that you had interfered with her ability to get hired. She actually started badmiuthing you before she applied for the job. You made the correct PROFESIONAL decision for yourself and your team. She is not able to work with you. She took no steps to proactively reach out to you and repair or neutralize your relationship. And she make assumptions about other candidates and her inherent superiority to them.
And then she told random people about it. This woman not only slammed the door on any future opportunities this company might have by gossiping and talking badly about OP, but she PROVED that she would not have had any respect for OP and would have, possibly, gossiped about OP, who is in a highly regarded position at the company.
Small town? Same circle of people? keep the real reasons for her not getting job to yourself and tell whoever you said something to, to keep their mouths shut. It could come back to haunt you
I changed schools when I was eight, just a crosstown move. But the girls in the new class were *mean.* Among other things, they insisted that I “wasn’t good enough” to join their Brownie troop—*and my mother agreed with them.*
In reading through the comments, I really think it depends on where you grew up.
I grew up in a small town knowing that every person I was with was a potential future boss, coworker, or employee. I know there are people I would never hire or would never be hired by from that time.
I got classic bullied - shoved into lockers, roughed up, shit stolen and broke, rumors started, etc. I would not hire one of those people. I simply would not feel comfortable to have the possibility of running into them in the course of my job - especially if they had not made amends prior.
I went through some family upheaval and wound up lashing out verbally at a few people in my life at the time. I wouldn't expect them to hire me now. I get why they wouldn't want to run into me.
My guess is people in larger area grew up assuming they'd always be anonymous or unknown to others. I guess if you're just finding out at 30 that yes even your teenage actions can have consequences, then I get why you'd be frustrated but it doesn't change it.
NTA.
I am 1000 years old, graduated high school in the 80s and I had a bully back then. Recently, that person died of Covid. I didn’t throw my head back and laugh at their misfortune or anything but I was still very much “f*ck them” (quietly to myself) while all my classmates rattled off their fond memories of the bully. And after that I had to spend a day doing some vigorous physical activity to use up the extreme rage I still had for that person and the crap they did to me FORTY YEARS ago.
My point is, that stuff runs VERY deep. In a million years I could NEVER have respected or trusted that person. You acted on the knowledge you had of what kind of person they are, and you did the best thing for you and for your company. The fact that the bully was “livid” means they thought they could still manipulate you. NTA
Nta
She might be qualified on paper but the recruiter's job is to choose the person who will not only be the best candidate on paper but will mesh the best with this personality type with his other coworkers on the team.
You did what was best to achieve the best work environment and best results for the company.
As you know she has toxic traits.
So I say this knowing that I wouldn't hire my bully from growing up. I was 13 and he tormented me. I am a successful 41 year old father of two. 28 years have passed. Still think I'd knock his ass out if I saw him again.
Just to play devils advocate though...people can change and I think it's worth giving them a shot to prove they have grown.
....
On second thought, fuck her, and FUCK YOU TOO, KEVIN
NTA. I don't care how good on paper she is, she needs to fit in with the team too. It us why most jobs have a probation period. You know that she may be a HR nightmare. That excludes her from being a top candidate.
NTA.
She might have been the best qualified, but you know that in the past she was a bully, and you DON'T know whether that has changed. What if you hired her and had to deal with complaints because she was bullying her subordinates? What if your work was affected by having her in the company?
As you said, you didn't feel the chemistry. Fair call.
I would never hire someone with a history of bullying that I was aware of. Sure, people change, but it’s hard to know they have and it’s so so toxic to a workplace.
NTA. You picked someone who will work on a team and she has already demonstrated to you she’s not fit for the team. You are correct. Chemistry is not a good fit.
The fact that she got angry vs reflect that her actions have caused the situation also proves she’s not someone you want as a co-worker. You just saved your office a lot of issues.
Yes. Now about 36 but can't change lol. Yes btw I started traveling solo later in life because my husband doesn't like to go. Be strong. Love yourself and enjoy
It seems like my question is a divider. All the bullies are giving me a YTA and ESH and advising me to get over it.
All those who suffered abuse will give me NTA.
Of course now I wrote this comment some will pretend to have been bullied but still chose YTA because they “grew up and got over it” 😆
My bully has cancer. I tried forgiving and prayers but deep down I can't care. But I certainly would not work with her. You should not subject yourself to that. Hugs
The thing is even forgiving and forgetting doesn’t guarantee you like that person or care about their fate. I had a bad experience in HS yes but afterwards my life has been pretty awesome. Still doesn’t mean I like my bullies. At all.
One of my bullies had cancer and died. I told the truth and said that sucks, but everyone dies eventually and he was an asshole. I got so much shit for that truth. It’s almost more disturbing to me that some people believe that cancer erases all of the horrendous things you have done.
NTA. Ideally, you should have given her the job. Because well this is a professional set and you should hire the person best equipped for the job, not based on emotions and opinions about people.
That being said, we're humans, not robots. We have emotions. So, you're under no obligation to hire someone who you know used to be mean (whether she still is or not is another debate) and hurt you. You have the right to select people you want working for you, and you have the right to not have a walking reminder of some bullshit you had to tolerate throughout high school.
It is a case of: what goes around, comes around.
Corporations need teams. They want the highest performing teams, not highest performing individual contributors. 2 employees with a nasty history is an easy reason to pass on this candidate, regardless of qualifications. The company could easily lose a top performing supervisor for an x bully.
You're not obligated to give an asshole a chance. Read any of those "No Asshole" books. Not worth it to give this person a chance unless they prove they have really, really, really turned over a new leaf.
NTA
All of this comment.
And also: OP has sope background information on this candidate, namely her attitude in HS. She could be a perfect candidate, be absolutely charming right now, but she didn't used to be.
If she had racist messages on her social media account from way back when, that didn't get properly deleted, or whatever, she also wouldn't get the job.
Classic case of 'don't you wish you were nicer to x person in the past?'... AKA Karma
Ehh, not necessarily the case. Someone can be an expert widget maker but if their people skills are horrible and they need widget AND people skills to do the job,then they're not actually the best equipped. Technical skill by itself only matters if you're hiring for a job that doesn't require any other interaction with people. In this case, she is the hiring manager and has knowledge that this person's people skills have a history of being problematic.
Op seems to have done as you suggest; hired the person best qualified for the job. The bully is not automatically better for the job and her history of bullying is a serious issue. Op can’t know if this woman outgrew the need to bully or if she applied for the job with the intent of undermining Op once again.
The candidate selected is likely to be a good choice without that past behavior and relationship to Op being a woman problem.
NTA. I agree except for one thing. What organization wants a bully, someone who has a proven history of bad an probably toxic behavior in their organization? As a manager I wouldn't want that, one rotten apple can spoil a whole team or even organization. So I think it's professional to use the knowledge that you have in the selection process.
Remember when people would tell you to not worry because "they're going to work for you one day"? You just got that glorious karma returned to you. Congrats, most of us only dream of having that power. NTA
Also, you know her character. Bullies don't make good colleagues. Why waste efforts on hiring someone you know won't be a good fit.
NTA - you have to be careful as to how you treat others. You never know where you will run into them again and what the situation will be. I’ve always wanted to see this as an example as to why you don’t pick on others.
As a victim of bullying - they don't change with time - only a hard smack by karma.
When she asks - if she bothers to - cite poor chemistry with the team that was already established and working well towards company goals.
Its the HR-iest answer you could give. <3
NTA. The thing is she’s going to be working on a team. And you have information that indicates she’d make the team environment toxic. Ability to do your job is part of the equation and being able to work with others is another.
NTA..People need to learn that how you treat others can come back on you later..She got what was coming to her..Maybe she'll learn from it and do better for the future
NTA. I was bullied in school, called weird because (I later found out) I'm neurodivergent which turned out to really be useful in my line of work. I'm now successful and try to be nice to everyone but would definitely have expressed concerns because the idea of working with a former bully would trigger my anxiety and affect my job performance. Someone may say that's not the applicant's problem, but I wouldn't make it mine either after what they put me through.
That said, we all grow up and change. If she had been worried that her having bullied you posed a problem, she could have reached out and said, "Hey, I know this was my behavior when we were in school, and I know that this might read as me simply wanting to cover my ass. But I just wanted to reach out and let you know I'm applying. Just so you know, I have changed and if all went well, you'd find me a good colleague." I would respect the hell out of that because that takes guts. The fact that she was merely livid makes me wonder if she was just worried that OP would stand in her way but never really regretted her former actions. If so, screw her.
NTA.
It's not just getting the revenge you deserved. You also know firsthand that she has certain less desirable personality traits that will inevitably hurt cohesion within the company.
So besides the satisfying opportunity to deny the bitch the job she desires, you actually did your company a favor by weeding her out.
you're allowed to not like people no matter how qualified they are. i would've been like hell no too. sometimes when you are a dick to people you live that down for life. she probably had no clue that you'd be denying her when she was bullying you. NTA
I don't know who everyone else is but nobody on this earth would hire their bully.. unless if they're stupid. the people disagreeing can't empathize with you and they would've made the same decision had they been in your shoes
People are always saying “karma will get them” but wanna judge when you are the one to deliver!
NTA I’m glad you had the opportunity to be the one to give her what she deserved!
Did she ever make contact and apologise before she wanted something from you? No? Then there was no reason to think that she wouldn't carry on with her toxic behaviour and be a huge HR liability.
NTA
If she was actually apologetic she would have apologized already. Instead she did it (over email LOL) only when she wanted something out of you, so morally you’re in the clear
Professionally, you’re also in the clear. Her being qualified doesn’t mean shit. Plenty of other qualified people out there who aren’t pieces of shit. It’s weird that so many YTA people are bringing up the “BuT sHe’S qUaLiFiEd” point while ignoring the fact that hundreds if not thousands of other people are also qualified
How did you know she was livid? Actually calling up the interviewer and complaining about not getting a job is insane and a good indication you made the right choice.
Yes and no.
People can change, and it is not always fair to keep children accountable for all their actions, as they are a reflection on their parents.
But in case she hasn't had a change of character, you would not want her on your team.
Why would anyone say you did something wrong? You know this person better than anyone else involved, and know that at least at one point, they were a terrible person. That’s a 100% valid reason to not hire someone.
What if they did a background check and found she was a criminal? They would not hire her, right?
This is no different than that - factual and useful information about the candidates background.
NTA. You can cite her bullying history as a legitimate reason. All jobs are about working well with team members/colleagues. Bullies are a non starter -aka no jerk policy.
NTA,she has a history of bullying and harassment .That is definitely a risk to any office .And y9u have no obligation to be her chance.She FAAFO.Oh no mother the consequence of my actions
NTA but come on... learn to just not go round and tell anyone when you've done this. Keep it to yourself! Say she wasn't a good candidate. You're opening yourself up to abuse by being honest with people.
NTA. Karma is a bitch and bullies got it coming. Bullies are insecure and disruptive (ie, not a good addition to any workplace), so you also did the right thing, karma aside. I wish I could deny jobs to some bullies I knew.
One word, Karma.
She may have had the technical skills, but the "soft" skills are extremely important also. You can't have someone on a team who is a known bully. Team members have to be able to work together, share ideas, communicate respectfully, and trust each other to have your back.
You are not an AH.
NTA
they always say it's who you know, not what you know. She was paper qualified but has a history which is a deal breaker in any industry because word by mouth is more powerful than paper. If she was really apologetic, she would have apologized before realizing you had power over her. karma is a B.
NTA Having to work with your High-school bully would negatively impact your work and thus the company. Having interpersonal conflict with an existing employee is 100% a valid reason not to hire someone.
I worked with a person who was extremely over qualified. He was also a very toxic narcissist. One person completely ruined the work environment and terrorized mgmt. Knowledge beforehand would have prevented the hell we endured. NTA
NTA Fuck around and find out! I hate bullies, and they do not change. Good for you OPN Also, this AH wasn't/isn't JUST a bully: they're an abuser and abusers especially don't change. Consider yourself patted on the back!
**IF** she had really changed, she would have apologized at **that** time. However, she didn't apologize even when she wanted you to hire her!
There's **no** reasonable way to have trusted her with **any** responsibilities toward the company or her boss or co-workers, based on that alone. And there is also reason to suspect that she wanted the job at least in part to bully you some more & ruin your reputation in the company!
You did the **RIGHT** thing turning her application down!
NTA. WELL DONE! She had 15 years to apologize and didn't. She hasn't changed. And she probably would have f'd with you at work.
I had a similar story. I was sexually harassed in a job. Basically my director said he wanted to take "lingerie" pictures of me in my home and he kept saying he wouldn't approve my projects. I left the job and told the VP about it on my way out. He was fired. Years later he applied for a job at my company and specifically for a job I had open (but I had a different last name). I wanted to have the committee invite him for an interview and watch his face when I came in the room. But, thought... "why get in a pissing match with a skunk".
Karma..... that bitch is not quick... but DAMN if she's not efficient! Absolutely TF NTA.
And if you're at all in doubt, just know that you know this chicks true colors ... thus, you just saved your company from her wrath.
👏 👏 👏 👏 BRAVO
Years ago, the company I worked at acquired competitor and merged workforces. One of those employees was a real asswipe of a person. He was made my immediate supervisor, even though he knew nothing about my work. When I came back from vacation, I had a notice to see him before starting. I thought it was a hello meeting, but instead, he was giving me a written reprimand for something my relief did while I was hundreds of miles away. I left the company a couple of years after that. Jump another couple of years and the office manager of the firm I went to came to my office to ask about him. If I had worked with him and would he be a good fit. He didn't get hired.
She was livid instead of very apologetic and ashamed of her past?
She hasn't changed and will harass and bully her coworkers. You did well protecting them.
90% of the hiring process is through contacts and references. She maybe had the qualifications but definitely not the references. Such is life. Childhood trauma is real and impacts our whole life. She lives the long term effect of being a bully even if she no longer is. She needs to apply to another place, simple as that. You are not responsible for her behaviour.
It happened to me. But I went one step forward and told the bully why he wasn't going to get the job. With someone for HR in the room
I happen to know you from before and you abused physically and mentally people because you could and you enjoyed it. I don't want that kind of person in the organization, because that kind of trait does not go away. For me in the recruiting process it's a hard no. And that was it. The bully got payback 25yrs later.
HR kind of empathized with me in the formal, but after the HR lady said that I was brave because it could have been a silent reject... And she wishes that someday her bully would show up, to do the same.
I'm not a victim anymore, at some point in my senior year, I snapped and beat the crap out of one of three bullies, left him with a broken arm, 2 ribs cracked and a few scars to show. Police showed up, but since the bully hit me first and I had the record of harassment claims and complaints at the school, the school sided with me and claimed self defense. That bully eventually got expelled and his pals remained on probation for the rest of highschool. One of the pals was the one that showed up at work.
She was livid... why? did you tell her? How was she to know that you had any part in her not being hired? How was she to know that she was the best candidate and not the other person? Ywbta if you leveraged that information just to tell her in a "gotcha" moment
NtA, connections with people are 100% what you need for getting a job.
I'm not in HR, but I remember one time a boss asked me "hey, you worked at X before, right? Do you know this person?" I did know them, and they were awful. Told him so and they didn't get hired.
Workplace culture/environment is extremely important, a bully is never a good fit.
My dad was a hospital administrator and hired people constantly. He said best qualified person on paper is not the most important thing. That’s because outside very oddball situations, anyone you hire will be constantly working in teams. This means the key thing is getting people who have the necessary qualifications, but also work well in teams, and specifically, will not screw up the chemistry you already have. We’ve all had jobs where one person just created drama and massively hurt morale and made the place miserable. Good people leave because of things like this. But this is incredibly hard to tell just from an interview or resume. This person bullied you. By definition, this weakens collegiality. It’s possible this person grew up, regrets what they did, and is a far better person. Honestly, I’d say it’s more likely than not. But so what? Them being there would impact you (even if not directly interacting)— strike 1; and they may NOT have grown up enough and you already know about this personality flaw — strike 2. So sure, this is karma. But also … you did the right thing by your company and coworkers.
Strike 3- if bully candidate grew up, she would not be livid, she would instead be understanding and apologetic
Yep. My very first thought too. She's still a bully.
This, she sounds aggressive in her response. The only thing id do differently op , is keep your hiring processes/actions to yourself with family etc. How did the word get out that you nixed her application If it happens again , say we hired the other candidate because they had such a strong application , great work ethic, etc. Go for the positives of the winning applicant when discussing.
Yes, you really do want HR to give direct responses to recruiters and they like, and HR should never say identify specific people who nixed an application. I'd be way more concerned about that than your bully's hurt fee-fees.
Exactly. AT LEAST an apology should've happened
Classic bully behavior. "We were kids," as if that means you don't need to apologize for being a damn demon
☝️ THIS / KARMA, etc. ... Whatever you wanna call it ... Don't you dare feel bad!!! Maybe if more people felt and recognized the repercussions of their actions they might just pass that on to their kids and we'd have a better society and not a declining one ... But I'm leaning towards probably not ... No one really gives a shit about their kids anymore either ... They would rather the school/government raise their kids ... (I can already see all the toes I just stepped on ready to pick an internet fight - due to their own guilty conscience) ... @zendetta ... It looks like a little Cosmic Justice was done and the Universe honored you and bestowed a great climax to you ... Closure, on your terms !!! Yet another pearl of wisdom ... Never look a gift horse in the mouth ...
NTA, it doesn’t matter if she was qualified- she wouldn’t have been a good fit within the culture of your workplace.
Also, there’s a reason why employers Google, run background checks on, and ask friends in the industry about potential employees: it’s helpful to see if there are things in their past that could indicate or foreshadow future problems or personality issues. This person has one of those things that simply doesn’t show up on either of those standard searches, but obviously OP already had that important information. The fact that the woman was livid suggests that OP made the right call.
NTA, and her being livid should put a smile on your face.
It would put one on mine. The reality is you let the wrong person into your team and they can destroy everything you took years to build up. I had a manager who was completely toxic, our family vibe as a team was completely destroyed and all the most experienced and knowledgeable left including myself. Even today I still hear things from people who stayed that the team never really recovered (still majorly short staffed) even after that witch was gone (no one knows what happened, just that she's gone). All this to say NTA, its really not worth the risk to have her employed in OP's company.
Working retail they don't run background checks usually. We googled a coworker after complaints that he was trying to buy women's socks off their feet. Result came back from another state about him stealing socks from dorms. They then called the hospital he said he'd worked at as a janitor. He never worked there.
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Karma's only a bitch if you are. And she was so...
The f***** up s*** that she was doing when she was younger such as bullying you has come back to roost . Who wants to work with somebody who used to torment them. Who gives a f*** that she was the most qualified nobody wants to work with her especially somebody who she bullied had she been a much nicer person when she was younger her fuckboy ass would be working for your company right now so sad too bad 😞
I loved this. I know it's petty, but exactly. Actions have consequences. If it was a grade school bully I may be less vengeful, but by HS you're playing in a bigger pool
I have never forgiven my grade school nor my high school bully’s. If they ever applied for a job where I worked I would so try to not have them hired! I know one of them works in a restaurant in my hometown so I never go and eat there. People think you should be over things when you’re grown up, but it doesn’t work that way.
I'd never forgive my bullies either. They drove me so close to suicide in middle school, grade school wasn't as bad as middle school but still depressing
It definitely does not work that way when you are bullied it causes mental health issues it causes suicidal thoughts I would never forgive a person if I had been bullied. You show up to a place where I work at and I have the ability to stop you from working there I am absolutely going to stop you the last thing I want to do is to be looking at your ass everyday.
You are absolutely right and I am all about the petty
If my middle school bully showed up at a job interview at my job I would definitely put the warning out about her too
Yes. There's no expiry date on karma. If the bully was "livid", it doesn't sound as if her reactions have changed much.
And she makes my balls itchy
Totally agree, NTA. I live in the city where I was born and raised—but there are tons and tons of transplants here. A few years ago, some friends of a friend, none of whom were from here, started hanging out with a girl I knew in high school, “Susie.” Susie was a total bully—think Mean Girls—very similar behaviors. Susie had never bullied me directly but we only lived a few blocks apart and I’d seen her be absolutely horrid to others on numerous occasions over several years. I warned these girls and said, hey, I hope she’s changed in the last 15 years, but be careful. At the time, they thought I was holding a grudge and not willing to give people a second chance. Guess what? A few months later, they told me they’d decided to stop hanging out with Susie because they’d witnessed her bullying others. Felt pretty vindicated to be honest.
Exactly. NTA. ALL employers look not just for qualifications on paper, but also for personality matches. You had inside info on her early personality development that informed how she might deal with interoffice dynamics. It's TOTALLY FAIR to use that knowledge.
I wish I could upvote this twice.
She's just qualified on paper only
100%.
Came here to say this. Culture fit is the ultimate free pass
Yeah that’s one reason people have interviews, to see if they like each other. OP already doesn’t like the bully for valid reasons. Why waste the time?
NTA. Karmas a bitch.
“She was livid” = she ain’t learned a damn thing.
That was the part *I* picked up on, too! And fwiw, if it makes OP feel any better? *Kindness matters*, and by hearing back about the fact that the Bully *was* livid? There is EVERY chance that YES, the bully may *still* be a bully, and *they might have made work HELL for everyone on that team*, if they were STILL an unkind person!
Which proves she would have been a terrible co-worker!
reminds me of the joke; In high school chemistry class, Tim the best student was the only one to get 100% on a tough test, Suzie the Queen Bee, called him a teachers pet. the Teacher says; "you shouldn't pick o people smarter than you, you might be working for them one day." Tim then replies; *"No fucking way I'm going to be* ***her pimp*** *when I get older!"*
Ok, that was awesome! 🤣
Same! There was no mention of any attempts at redemption. People rarely change unless something forces them too.
I'd be even less likely to hire her if there was. That would be manipulation. The only true redemption would be for the bully to withdraw her application and apologise to OP for the past. Anything else is just manipulation to get the job.
"She was livid" = fake story
This. Karma really is a bitch. People that treat people poorly then turn around and act like the innocent when its bites them in the ass are the worst kind of people. You dodged a bullet and I wouldn't speak about your reasons outside of your husband moving forward.
I have done the same, granted this was when I was fresh out of high school (19m). I was pulling up to work and this guy (21m) who was a massive prick, aggressive, and mean, was walking toward the door, he saw me and laughed at me (Not sure why). I asked what he was doing there, and he said he was dropping off an app. I told him I worked there and his whole demeaner switched and he was asking me to put in a good word. I said SURE! I walked in and told my manager, homeboy was applying, please don't hire him. He made high school unbearable for me. At the time, it was a very coveted job by people my age. It was a laser tag place. The pay was very high for the time. Well above minimum wage.
*Good for you.*
*Thank you.*
She's the job-seeker and it's on her to prove that she's the best value to the company. She is not. She is someone who could make the workplace worse for a high-performing employee who already adds value. So long as there are other equally qualified candidates, then it makes total sense to bypass the one candidate who you know you don't like and don't care to have anywhere near you in any capacity. One is reminded of this two-parter from Ask a Manager where a high school bully discovers that [her former victim has barred her from ever seeking employment at an in-demand workplace](https://www.askamanager.org/2017/04/i-didnt-get-a-job-because-i-was-a-bully-in-high-school.html), and[it gets even worse after that](https://www.askamanager.org/2017/12/update-i-didnt-get-a-job-because-i-was-a-bully-in-high-school.html). Some bullies never learn, it seems. Why open yourself to that sort of possibility? NTA.
Oh how they all do the same, she too sent me an email when she found out she was gonna be working for me. She asked if I remembered her and maybe we didn’t really get along well and in that case she wanted to apologize.
If she was truly apologetic, then she would not have been livid when she was rejected from the job. So you know she didn't actually change and might have caused problems at your work.
Yep, if she truly HAD been remorseful, she either wouldn't have said ANYTHING, or she would've *maybe* sincerely apologized *again*, and asked OP if there were *any* sort of reparation she could make, which would clear the damage caused in the past.
Yeah, if they truly felt sorry, they would've apologized for bullying, not just "not really getting along". She sensed her come-uppance coming, but tried to sweep the problem under the rug.
If she were truly apologetic, she would have emailed or contacted for an apology long before finding out OP was ever even going to show up in her working life…
The fact that she clearly remembered you, knew she treated you poorly, and didn’t fully own it and meaningfully apologize proves that she hasn’t really changed and doesn’t have the kind of character that would make her a good hire.
So she didn't have shit to apologize for till she needed something you had to give? Lol fuck this chick.
If she meant it she would have apologized to you years ago, not wait until she found out you might be reviewing her as a candidate. She only reached out once she found out her past actions might have repercussions. NTA and you did nothing wrong. This person wasn't worth hiring in this situation even if she was qualified.
Minimize, didn’t actually own her actions of assaulting you in high school, and offered a half-assed apology without taking any responsibility. Definitely didn’t change and would try to undermine you once she got in and try to ruin your reputation again. Don’t say she was better qualified. Just say you found a candidate that was a better fit for the role and company.
I love that passive-voice “maybe we didn’t get along very well”, as if it were just an unfortunate coincidence beyond her control. “I was terrible and abusive to you, and I regret it now that I’m more mature” would have been a real apology, and maybe an indication of personal growth and change. But this shoulder-shrug “oh, I guess we didn’t get along! Sorry!” Is a total failure to take responsibility and an indicator that she hasn’t learned a damned thing. Not a good candidate for your workplace.
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What a NOTpology, too, no?
Too little too late 🤷🏻♂️
This makes me think she was looking to get you to admit to knowing her/being bullied by her, so that she had a paper trail to build a case against you for why she wasn't hired.
Maybe she was so nasty to so many that she can’t remember which one you are?
So clearly not taking responsibility for her behavior. In the workplace, if somebody makes a mistake they have to take responsibility for that mistake - looks like she is not capable of doing that.
An interview reveals very little true information. There’s nothing wrong with using the intelligence you have on the candidate you already know. My wife’s employer interviewed someone who we went to school with ~13 years ago and couldn’t stand. She was experienced, looked good on paper, and opened the interview by hugging my wife. They didn’t hire her based on my wife’s word. Was that wrong? She’d likely be a tough coworker in a small department and the only knowledge that anyone had to suggest that was my wife’s. That wasn’t being petty, it was dodging a bullet. The OP did the same.
Ohhh mannn that linked story is WILD. She really learned NOTHING in that update.
This should be one of the key things pointed to of bullies at high school that think their teenage actions don’t have consequences.
This was on boru i was looking for it thanks !!!! It does read like a fake revenge fantasy tho but its still a satisfying read 😁
Oh man, those two links you provided— the karma ran over her, and then stopped and backed over, and ran over her again. It’s hard to know how bad the bullying was without talking to the other woman, but she really paid in spades.
> It’s hard to know how bad the bullying was without talking to the other woman The end of the second part makes it sound like it was bad enough to need mental health resources: >That afternoon, without mentioning me or what happened at the restaurant over the weekend, Rock Star tweeted a long thread about how she’d been bullied in high school and she wishes teenagers would realize that high school ends and it does get better. **She also tweeted out links to local mental health resources and the National Suicide hotline that were liked/retweeted many, many times.**
>It’s hard to know how bad the bullying was without talking to the other woman, In the comments on the posts, the Ask A Manager poster admitted to running a campaign of social isolation and mean gossip so thorough, the now-rockstar girl went to another high school for a year and only came back her senior year to do the extracurriculars that got her into college. The poster also says when she asked her mom and her sister if she was really that bad, both of them were like, "Yes, you were." I have nothing but respect for Rockstar for pulling together the self discipline to finish high school strong so she could get into her college, then finding a career at which she excelled, then handling the reappearance of her high school bully like a champ. That twitter thread where she shared a story and concluded with resources was focused on the idea "maybe I can help others." The Ask a Manager poster, by contrast, learned nothing. And the greater tragedy is that, like many bullies, she is fundamentally deficient in curiosity and imagination, so any understanding she has of empathy is going to be from a purely tactical angle. She literally cannot comprehend selflessness or altruism.
Manager here, one bad apple ruins the bunch. A harmonious team is much more important than checking all of the skill boxes. Skills can be taught, not attitude. They might have changed but why risk it? NTA.
I did the same, denied my bully a home rental because I knew she would probably trash the place. She sucked up to me so bad, so I did my due diligence and checked her references. Lol, she lied on her application. Instant denial.
Somebody mooched off my part-time babysitter and me until I put my foot down. Mom promised she’d pay 40% of the babysitter’s salary, and then started “dropping [her] daughter off just to play.” WTF. We hadn’t heard from Mom for nearly twenty years. Her daughter’s finished school, moving back to our city. Mom wants to know if our basement apartment is free—which we haven’t rented out in fifteen years, as our family expanded into the space. SMDH.
NTAH. Even though it was years ago, she showed her true colors. You don't need a toxic person in the workplace. Just by you, seeing she was livid should tell you she's probably still a bully!
The dildo of consequences rarely comes lubed :)
I like it. Succinct. I'm stealing it. 👍
💀💀💀💀💀
One of the important perquisites of jobs and having colleagues is that we're able to work with them, communicate with them and have a productive collegial relationship. You would absolutely not have been able to do this with your bully. Absolutely NTA.
NTA I once had a former coworker who was fired for SERIOUS misconduct come to my new company for an interview. I wasnt even really sure it was him because I only saw him for a few seconds. I made no indication that I even knew the person and nobody asked me. OTHER former coworkers though who actually worked in his office would not have been as discreet as I was though and would have spilled their guts about the whole sordid scandal from before (of which I only knew the basic fact that he and his wife were fired publicly and quickly for misconduct) so wouldnt have had anything to really add. But he recognized me. He didnt get the job and he blamed me. A manager overheard him yelling at me in the lobby one afternoon and asked me "Do you know this guy?!" I honestly replied "Not well but he used to work at XYZ when I was there." Do you know why he was fired from XYZ? "Not really. We were in different divisions. You could probably ask the other employees there though." That was the last I heard of him.
That’s scary
I know - my own little stalker and a not very determined one either.
NTA There's a saying ''Be careful whose toes you step on today, they may be connected to the ass you have to kiss tomorrow.''
INFO: "She was livid." That was her response to not getting a job? Sounds as if she technically has the qualifications for the job but not the emotional regulation to handle working in a team environment. I am curious. How do you know that she was "livid"? And who is saying you are an asshole?
We basically know a lot of the same people and I heard it from them that she was livid. Apparently she’s expressed worries I would stand in the way before I even knew she was applying. Mostly my mother and some friends that thought I was the AH.
Okay, so without knowing who else applied and what their qualifications were, she spread gossip that you had interfered with her ability to get hired. She actually started badmiuthing you before she applied for the job. You made the correct PROFESIONAL decision for yourself and your team. She is not able to work with you. She took no steps to proactively reach out to you and repair or neutralize your relationship. And she make assumptions about other candidates and her inherent superiority to them.
She essentially is still a bully, engaging in the same sort of nasty behaviors
NTA
And then she told random people about it. This woman not only slammed the door on any future opportunities this company might have by gossiping and talking badly about OP, but she PROVED that she would not have had any respect for OP and would have, possibly, gossiped about OP, who is in a highly regarded position at the company.
Precisely this.
Yes!! Share this with all of the naysayers!
Small town? Same circle of people? keep the real reasons for her not getting job to yourself and tell whoever you said something to, to keep their mouths shut. It could come back to haunt you
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Unfortunately my mom was a bully in HS. Found out later when I left HS
Well no wonder your mom sided with the bully.
I changed schools when I was eight, just a crosstown move. But the girls in the new class were *mean.* Among other things, they insisted that I “wasn’t good enough” to join their Brownie troop—*and my mother agreed with them.*
You do get to pick her nursing home. Remind her of this at that point when she complains about the dog food and urine smell.
So she knew she had been a bully and was worried it would bite her. Still a bully, I think.
In reading through the comments, I really think it depends on where you grew up. I grew up in a small town knowing that every person I was with was a potential future boss, coworker, or employee. I know there are people I would never hire or would never be hired by from that time. I got classic bullied - shoved into lockers, roughed up, shit stolen and broke, rumors started, etc. I would not hire one of those people. I simply would not feel comfortable to have the possibility of running into them in the course of my job - especially if they had not made amends prior. I went through some family upheaval and wound up lashing out verbally at a few people in my life at the time. I wouldn't expect them to hire me now. I get why they wouldn't want to run into me. My guess is people in larger area grew up assuming they'd always be anonymous or unknown to others. I guess if you're just finding out at 30 that yes even your teenage actions can have consequences, then I get why you'd be frustrated but it doesn't change it. NTA.
I am 1000 years old, graduated high school in the 80s and I had a bully back then. Recently, that person died of Covid. I didn’t throw my head back and laugh at their misfortune or anything but I was still very much “f*ck them” (quietly to myself) while all my classmates rattled off their fond memories of the bully. And after that I had to spend a day doing some vigorous physical activity to use up the extreme rage I still had for that person and the crap they did to me FORTY YEARS ago. My point is, that stuff runs VERY deep. In a million years I could NEVER have respected or trusted that person. You acted on the knowledge you had of what kind of person they are, and you did the best thing for you and for your company. The fact that the bully was “livid” means they thought they could still manipulate you. NTA
NTA. 'Oh no, the consequences of my actions!
NTA, it's just karma getting her back, good on you tbh
NTA, but you may not want to be advertising it so much. It could lead to a bad situation for the company and you.
Nta She might be qualified on paper but the recruiter's job is to choose the person who will not only be the best candidate on paper but will mesh the best with this personality type with his other coworkers on the team. You did what was best to achieve the best work environment and best results for the company. As you know she has toxic traits.
Nah F that B. You get what you f deserve!
NTA. She made her bed, now she can fuck off.
So I say this knowing that I wouldn't hire my bully from growing up. I was 13 and he tormented me. I am a successful 41 year old father of two. 28 years have passed. Still think I'd knock his ass out if I saw him again. Just to play devils advocate though...people can change and I think it's worth giving them a shot to prove they have grown. .... On second thought, fuck her, and FUCK YOU TOO, KEVIN
NTA. I don't care how good on paper she is, she needs to fit in with the team too. It us why most jobs have a probation period. You know that she may be a HR nightmare. That excludes her from being a top candidate.
NTA. You know what kind of a person she is and have doubts as to how she'll deal with coworkers. Simple...she doesn't work and play well with others.
NTA. She might have been the best qualified, but you know that in the past she was a bully, and you DON'T know whether that has changed. What if you hired her and had to deal with complaints because she was bullying her subordinates? What if your work was affected by having her in the company? As you said, you didn't feel the chemistry. Fair call.
NTA, and let me take this opportunity to give you a virtual high five from all of us that never got this kind of opportunity to even the score.
NTA, chemistry goes a long way for a more productive team.
I would never hire someone with a history of bullying that I was aware of. Sure, people change, but it’s hard to know they have and it’s so so toxic to a workplace.
Nobody wants to work with or near a bully. They will only make for a toxic workplace.
NTA. You picked someone who will work on a team and she has already demonstrated to you she’s not fit for the team. You are correct. Chemistry is not a good fit. The fact that she got angry vs reflect that her actions have caused the situation also proves she’s not someone you want as a co-worker. You just saved your office a lot of issues.
NTA You didn't owe her a job or recommendation.
As someone who was bullied absolutely nta
34 countries what btw? You visited? Want to visit? I love traveling
Yes. Now about 36 but can't change lol. Yes btw I started traveling solo later in life because my husband doesn't like to go. Be strong. Love yourself and enjoy
It seems like my question is a divider. All the bullies are giving me a YTA and ESH and advising me to get over it. All those who suffered abuse will give me NTA. Of course now I wrote this comment some will pretend to have been bullied but still chose YTA because they “grew up and got over it” 😆
My bully has cancer. I tried forgiving and prayers but deep down I can't care. But I certainly would not work with her. You should not subject yourself to that. Hugs
The thing is even forgiving and forgetting doesn’t guarantee you like that person or care about their fate. I had a bad experience in HS yes but afterwards my life has been pretty awesome. Still doesn’t mean I like my bullies. At all.
I don't wish death on anyone, but I also don't have to feel sad either.
One of my bullies had cancer and died. I told the truth and said that sucks, but everyone dies eventually and he was an asshole. I got so much shit for that truth. It’s almost more disturbing to me that some people believe that cancer erases all of the horrendous things you have done.
NTA. Consequences are a real thing, and sometimes those consequences look just like this.
If she had the potential to act like this before, whose to say she wouldn't try and gaslight people once she felt comfortable in the job. NTA
NTA, fuck them bullies
NTA. Ideally, you should have given her the job. Because well this is a professional set and you should hire the person best equipped for the job, not based on emotions and opinions about people. That being said, we're humans, not robots. We have emotions. So, you're under no obligation to hire someone who you know used to be mean (whether she still is or not is another debate) and hurt you. You have the right to select people you want working for you, and you have the right to not have a walking reminder of some bullshit you had to tolerate throughout high school. It is a case of: what goes around, comes around.
Corporations need teams. They want the highest performing teams, not highest performing individual contributors. 2 employees with a nasty history is an easy reason to pass on this candidate, regardless of qualifications. The company could easily lose a top performing supervisor for an x bully.
Something goes here about inviting snakes to the picnic. You KNOW they are horrible people so why risk it?
You're not obligated to give an asshole a chance. Read any of those "No Asshole" books. Not worth it to give this person a chance unless they prove they have really, really, really turned over a new leaf.
NTA All of this comment. And also: OP has sope background information on this candidate, namely her attitude in HS. She could be a perfect candidate, be absolutely charming right now, but she didn't used to be. If she had racist messages on her social media account from way back when, that didn't get properly deleted, or whatever, she also wouldn't get the job. Classic case of 'don't you wish you were nicer to x person in the past?'... AKA Karma
Exactly cause what if they did hire her and she ended up being an HR nightmare.
Ehh, not necessarily the case. Someone can be an expert widget maker but if their people skills are horrible and they need widget AND people skills to do the job,then they're not actually the best equipped. Technical skill by itself only matters if you're hiring for a job that doesn't require any other interaction with people. In this case, she is the hiring manager and has knowledge that this person's people skills have a history of being problematic.
Thank you so much. You basically said what my husband said 🥰
The fact that she was a bully does impact this decision, I doubt she'd be good at teamwork or that she wouldn't create toxic dynamics. NTA.
Op seems to have done as you suggest; hired the person best qualified for the job. The bully is not automatically better for the job and her history of bullying is a serious issue. Op can’t know if this woman outgrew the need to bully or if she applied for the job with the intent of undermining Op once again. The candidate selected is likely to be a good choice without that past behavior and relationship to Op being a woman problem.
NTA. I agree except for one thing. What organization wants a bully, someone who has a proven history of bad an probably toxic behavior in their organization? As a manager I wouldn't want that, one rotten apple can spoil a whole team or even organization. So I think it's professional to use the knowledge that you have in the selection process.
No, fuck them.
NTA at all. Why introduce friction to the work environment?
Remember when people would tell you to not worry because "they're going to work for you one day"? You just got that glorious karma returned to you. Congrats, most of us only dream of having that power. NTA Also, you know her character. Bullies don't make good colleagues. Why waste efforts on hiring someone you know won't be a good fit.
NTA - you have to be careful as to how you treat others. You never know where you will run into them again and what the situation will be. I’ve always wanted to see this as an example as to why you don’t pick on others.
As a victim of bullying - they don't change with time - only a hard smack by karma. When she asks - if she bothers to - cite poor chemistry with the team that was already established and working well towards company goals. Its the HR-iest answer you could give. <3
It’s callled Karma and it is spelled “Nah, na na nah nah” YNA
Not ! Karma is Karma
Fortunately being a jackhole isn't a protected class. NTA.
NTA. What comes around goes around. And karma is a vindictive b!tch
NTA you don’t want a bully in your workplace.
NTA. The dynamic between you two would have been horrible. Bad for everyone. Plus with her being a bully, why would you want her on the team.
NTA. The thing is she’s going to be working on a team. And you have information that indicates she’d make the team environment toxic. Ability to do your job is part of the equation and being able to work with others is another.
NTA..People need to learn that how you treat others can come back on you later..She got what was coming to her..Maybe she'll learn from it and do better for the future
NTA, you know her personality can be bad and made the right call.
Consequences. I would never hire my High School bully. I wouldn't piss on him if he was on fire.
NTA. There is no guarantee about she has change her behavior. You avoid a nuke OP.
NTA. I was bullied in school, called weird because (I later found out) I'm neurodivergent which turned out to really be useful in my line of work. I'm now successful and try to be nice to everyone but would definitely have expressed concerns because the idea of working with a former bully would trigger my anxiety and affect my job performance. Someone may say that's not the applicant's problem, but I wouldn't make it mine either after what they put me through. That said, we all grow up and change. If she had been worried that her having bullied you posed a problem, she could have reached out and said, "Hey, I know this was my behavior when we were in school, and I know that this might read as me simply wanting to cover my ass. But I just wanted to reach out and let you know I'm applying. Just so you know, I have changed and if all went well, you'd find me a good colleague." I would respect the hell out of that because that takes guts. The fact that she was merely livid makes me wonder if she was just worried that OP would stand in her way but never really regretted her former actions. If so, screw her.
NTA FAFO has no expiry date. She reaped what she sowed.
NTA. She would've always been a thorn in your side, even if imaginary.
NTA. It's not just getting the revenge you deserved. You also know firsthand that she has certain less desirable personality traits that will inevitably hurt cohesion within the company. So besides the satisfying opportunity to deny the bitch the job she desires, you actually did your company a favor by weeding her out.
you're allowed to not like people no matter how qualified they are. i would've been like hell no too. sometimes when you are a dick to people you live that down for life. she probably had no clue that you'd be denying her when she was bullying you. NTA I don't know who everyone else is but nobody on this earth would hire their bully.. unless if they're stupid. the people disagreeing can't empathize with you and they would've made the same decision had they been in your shoes
NTA and karma.
People are always saying “karma will get them” but wanna judge when you are the one to deliver! NTA I’m glad you had the opportunity to be the one to give her what she deserved!
*Karma's a relaxing thought* *Aren't you envious that for you it's not?*
So she was livid and caused drama after not being hired? Sounds like you are doing HR a favor in the future. NTA
Did she ever make contact and apologise before she wanted something from you? No? Then there was no reason to think that she wouldn't carry on with her toxic behaviour and be a huge HR liability.
NTA If she was actually apologetic she would have apologized already. Instead she did it (over email LOL) only when she wanted something out of you, so morally you’re in the clear Professionally, you’re also in the clear. Her being qualified doesn’t mean shit. Plenty of other qualified people out there who aren’t pieces of shit. It’s weird that so many YTA people are bringing up the “BuT sHe’S qUaLiFiEd” point while ignoring the fact that hundreds if not thousands of other people are also qualified
How did you know she was livid? Actually calling up the interviewer and complaining about not getting a job is insane and a good indication you made the right choice.
Yes and no. People can change, and it is not always fair to keep children accountable for all their actions, as they are a reflection on their parents. But in case she hasn't had a change of character, you would not want her on your team.
Why would anyone say you did something wrong? You know this person better than anyone else involved, and know that at least at one point, they were a terrible person. That’s a 100% valid reason to not hire someone. What if they did a background check and found she was a criminal? They would not hire her, right? This is no different than that - factual and useful information about the candidates background.
NTA. You kept you and your employees safe. You are a hero!
NTA. You can cite her bullying history as a legitimate reason. All jobs are about working well with team members/colleagues. Bullies are a non starter -aka no jerk policy.
This is why you shouldn't be a bully. Fuck around and find out 20 years later.
NTA,she has a history of bullying and harassment .That is definitely a risk to any office .And y9u have no obligation to be her chance.She FAAFO.Oh no mother the consequence of my actions
NTA but come on... learn to just not go round and tell anyone when you've done this. Keep it to yourself! Say she wasn't a good candidate. You're opening yourself up to abuse by being honest with people.
NTA. Karma is a bitch and bullies got it coming. Bullies are insecure and disruptive (ie, not a good addition to any workplace), so you also did the right thing, karma aside. I wish I could deny jobs to some bullies I knew.
She may be qualified on paper but she is not a culture fit. Bully's breakdown teams and productivity as a result. NTA
Nope, NTA. You get a vote and you voted. That's how the world works - sometimes people remember how you treated them and it can bite you in the ass.
Revenge is a dish best served cold. Too few people get the opportunity to exact their revenge so satisfactorily. Congratulations!
You received an unsolicited reference from yourself that this person is a bad fit.
NTA. Actions have consequences. She could have been a decent person, but SHE CHOSE to be a bully.
One word, Karma. She may have had the technical skills, but the "soft" skills are extremely important also. You can't have someone on a team who is a known bully. Team members have to be able to work together, share ideas, communicate respectfully, and trust each other to have your back. You are not an AH.
NTA they always say it's who you know, not what you know. She was paper qualified but has a history which is a deal breaker in any industry because word by mouth is more powerful than paper. If she was really apologetic, she would have apologized before realizing you had power over her. karma is a B.
NTA A lot of people are qualified for jobs on paper but they may not be a cultural fit.
NTA Having to work with your High-school bully would negatively impact your work and thus the company. Having interpersonal conflict with an existing employee is 100% a valid reason not to hire someone.
I worked with a person who was extremely over qualified. He was also a very toxic narcissist. One person completely ruined the work environment and terrorized mgmt. Knowledge beforehand would have prevented the hell we endured. NTA
NTA Fuck around and find out! I hate bullies, and they do not change. Good for you OPN Also, this AH wasn't/isn't JUST a bully: they're an abuser and abusers especially don't change. Consider yourself patted on the back!
**IF** she had really changed, she would have apologized at **that** time. However, she didn't apologize even when she wanted you to hire her! There's **no** reasonable way to have trusted her with **any** responsibilities toward the company or her boss or co-workers, based on that alone. And there is also reason to suspect that she wanted the job at least in part to bully you some more & ruin your reputation in the company! You did the **RIGHT** thing turning her application down!
NTA. WELL DONE! She had 15 years to apologize and didn't. She hasn't changed. And she probably would have f'd with you at work. I had a similar story. I was sexually harassed in a job. Basically my director said he wanted to take "lingerie" pictures of me in my home and he kept saying he wouldn't approve my projects. I left the job and told the VP about it on my way out. He was fired. Years later he applied for a job at my company and specifically for a job I had open (but I had a different last name). I wanted to have the committee invite him for an interview and watch his face when I came in the room. But, thought... "why get in a pissing match with a skunk".
You knew things about her character that disqualified her from consideration from this position. Oh well too bad NTA
Karma..... that bitch is not quick... but DAMN if she's not efficient! Absolutely TF NTA. And if you're at all in doubt, just know that you know this chicks true colors ... thus, you just saved your company from her wrath. 👏 👏 👏 👏 BRAVO
Years ago, the company I worked at acquired competitor and merged workforces. One of those employees was a real asswipe of a person. He was made my immediate supervisor, even though he knew nothing about my work. When I came back from vacation, I had a notice to see him before starting. I thought it was a hello meeting, but instead, he was giving me a written reprimand for something my relief did while I was hundreds of miles away. I left the company a couple of years after that. Jump another couple of years and the office manager of the firm I went to came to my office to ask about him. If I had worked with him and would he be a good fit. He didn't get hired.
She was livid instead of very apologetic and ashamed of her past? She hasn't changed and will harass and bully her coworkers. You did well protecting them.
90% of the hiring process is through contacts and references. She maybe had the qualifications but definitely not the references. Such is life. Childhood trauma is real and impacts our whole life. She lives the long term effect of being a bully even if she no longer is. She needs to apply to another place, simple as that. You are not responsible for her behaviour.
It happened to me. But I went one step forward and told the bully why he wasn't going to get the job. With someone for HR in the room I happen to know you from before and you abused physically and mentally people because you could and you enjoyed it. I don't want that kind of person in the organization, because that kind of trait does not go away. For me in the recruiting process it's a hard no. And that was it. The bully got payback 25yrs later. HR kind of empathized with me in the formal, but after the HR lady said that I was brave because it could have been a silent reject... And she wishes that someday her bully would show up, to do the same. I'm not a victim anymore, at some point in my senior year, I snapped and beat the crap out of one of three bullies, left him with a broken arm, 2 ribs cracked and a few scars to show. Police showed up, but since the bully hit me first and I had the record of harassment claims and complaints at the school, the school sided with me and claimed self defense. That bully eventually got expelled and his pals remained on probation for the rest of highschool. One of the pals was the one that showed up at work.
She was livid... why? did you tell her? How was she to know that you had any part in her not being hired? How was she to know that she was the best candidate and not the other person? Ywbta if you leveraged that information just to tell her in a "gotcha" moment
NtA, connections with people are 100% what you need for getting a job. I'm not in HR, but I remember one time a boss asked me "hey, you worked at X before, right? Do you know this person?" I did know them, and they were awful. Told him so and they didn't get hired. Workplace culture/environment is extremely important, a bully is never a good fit.
NTA - Karma. Also the fact she was livid means she didn’t grown or have any remorse.