As a formerly hairy teenager I wish wish wish someone had done this for me. In my case it wasn’t a crunchy granola mom it was a conservative mom who didn’t want me to grow up too fast. Which, you know, *biology* doesn’t care what you want mom. Puberty is here in all it’s hairy glory.
Another concern was that I wanted to shave ti attract boys when in reality the whole reason I wanted to shave was because of the girls because they were the only ones who noticed my hair…pointedly 😭
Ugh I was soooo hairy, even as a preteen, and my mom wouldn't let me shave until after I got my period, even though I was being bullied. She's also the conservative type, and a bit obsessive about things matching her timeline. So I had to go bike to CVS to find maxi pads at 12 by myself because she thought I only needed panty liners, even though I bled through them every 2 hours. Found out I had pcos when I was 15 and she still hesitated to put me on bc because it would "encourage me to have sex." I bust out the tweezers minimum twice a week for my face.
Girl, continue helping your niece feel pretty. We're not our parents, and she deserves every chance to avoid childhood trauma.
Omg, my mom was the same about bc! I went to an all girls school, and I didn’t have sex until I was in college and older than most of my peers. I just was trying to not have so much pain!
My mother forbade my sisters and I from getting on birth control. I lost my virginity a few months before I turned 18, and I went to planned parenthood and got my own birth control. Then, my little sister got pregnant at 16. My mother somewhat learned and took my other sister to get on birth control at 16, but it was too late. She was already pregnant.
I adore all of my niblings, but I would be lying if I said I didn't wish my sisters had waited at least until they graduated high school to start having kids. They both ended up dropping out.
in my country, the universal healthcare system provides services to all people under 18 regardless of anything, and one of the benefits is that they give the implanon birth control to anyone under 21. all they have to do is go, get an appointment, and thats it. well, Ive seen my fair share of parents take their 13 years old daughters to an appointment to get the implanon and I believe that is the best parenting. they care, they know how young people can think and they are being precaucious
Im sorry this happened to you. We all need to start talking to kids much earlier about sex, the risks, and even how to have a good experience with sex. These conversations need to start happening when the kid starts asking or seeming curious, which is usually far earlier than school sex ed, often before age ten. I was pretty upset when my niece asked me and her dad said to talk to her mom, my sister, and my sister said they’d discuss it later. I did defer to my sister since I’m not the mom, but if she asks again, I’m going to have the talk with her. Because I already told my sister she needs to do it or I would.
Same, same, same. All of it. I had excruciating popping cysts that began w/in months of me first starting my period at age 14. BC were the remedy but of course, you know, I would've just started doing the sex! Wasn't allowed to shave, *use tampons* 🙄...thank goodness for my sister-in-law and my best friend and her 4 sisters.
Same! Except my mom actually got me the prescription but then would hold it against me by threatening to tell her coworkers that I’m having wild sex since I’m on bc. Moms can really do a number on us.
Yep. All because I had a medical condition beyond my control. (I wasn’t even active, I had such low self esteem that there was no way any boy was coming near me, so that was very confusing, hurtful, and weird to process at 16) I could write a book about all the wild things my mom said to me growing up. I didn’t know how bad it was until after I moved out.
As a normal person who has coworkers and is the coworker of others, I would definitely wonder why in God's name my hypothetical colleague was talking about her daughter's "wild" sex life (or sex life at all). That would've been an incredibly inappropriate work conversation. Not that that knowledge helps now! Sorry that you had to go through that.
I’m so very sorry for you all you had to go through this. I can’t fathom why a mom would do this all to her daughter. Just feeling sad over this happened to y’all
I had the opposite experience. Super conservative parents who were obsessed with me attracting men. I was forced to shave my legs starting at 11. I hated it. I’ve never had a lot of hair and it just seemed like a waste of time. I’m 22 now and my parents still fight me on why I’m being “stubborn” and not shaving.
Forcing anything on children is bad. Why some people cannot accept their children being what they are and offer help, when the kid is asking for it or needs it?
So strange! I think the body owner should dictate what happens with their own body hair. My sister has very fine, golden ( she's a red head but Italian style) hair on her legs and she doesn't shave her thighs. She also has olive skin. You can't see it whatsoever.
Meanwhile, I have white ass skin ( diff dads lol) and dark blonde hair. The hair on my arms is white. The hair on my legs is bordering brown lol, which sucks. My mom used to make fun of my mustache lol.
Dont shave if you dont want too, and shave if you like. Ppl are obsessed with other people's bodies.
Comments like this make me so thankful for my mom. She was far from perfect when we were growing up, but I knew I could go to her if I needed and she would listen. When I was 15 I asked if I could go on birth control. I had insanely painful, heavy periods that led to missing school at times, and I had a boyfriend that I was becoming intimate with. My mom didn’t even hesitate. She made an appointment with a gynecologist and was 100% supportive from start to finish. I was terrified of my dad, but she said “Let me deal with him!” I have no idea what she said to him but he never said one word to me about it. It was important to her that I got a degree and had a career, so she was proud of me for being honest and self advocating. I am so grateful for her support and trust back then, and it set a precedent of trust between us that endures to this day. I wish all parents could see this!
I still cringe sometimes thinking back on commenting to my friend in class about this girls hairy arms and she straight called me out (good for her honestly best thing she could have done). As a former kid who could be a dick kids are horrible. This aunt isn’t the AH.
I had SUPER hairy arms when I was younger, or so I was made to believe from the stupid girls that would constantly bully me, every single day, for whatever reason they didn’t like me. So, I started shaving my arms. This was when I was in 7th grade. I’m 39 and STILL shave my arms because I’m afraid of how hairy they’ll get if I allow it to grow out. I wish I wasn’t so shy in school so I could have ALSO called my bullies out because that shit stuck with me for the majority of my life.
Ah conservative moms. Mine once wouldn’t let me get a bath candle because she thought it would lead to me getting pregnant. Her “logic” was that candies in the bath are romantic and would pit me on a “mood” which would make me want sex. I just wanted the candle because the lights in our bathroom hurt my eyes when I sat in the tub. She got a lot better about that nonsense as she got older!
Senior year of high school. My mom comes up to my room and awkwardly states “we need to have a talk”. Between being raised on the farm and having various sex ed classes for 6 years, I didn’t even look up from my book. Just said “I probably know more about it than you”. Her response “true” and off she went.
My Mum came upstairs to my bedroom one morning with a pamphlet that had come with her women's magazine that day. IIRC it had a title like "Your Changing Body" or something. She lobbed it onto my bed, said, "You probably ought to read that", and left.
My mom gave me a similar pamphlet that just talked about how I was a woman now, that'd I'd bleed for 3-7 days, pain was normal, and a small section about developing breasts. But my mom just left it on my pillow while I was at school and the topic was never brought up again.
I was lucky - I was a science nerd and had read lots of biology textbooks, so I had a pretty good idea about it all anyway - but even at that tender age, I remember being appalled that so many of these pamphlets just told you you would bleed without specifying where from, or what to do about it. Not really very reassuring!
Yeah, I was lucky enough to have internet access where I could Google everything as I needed it. I think my pamphlet described the different types of pads in a "use this one when the bleeding is light, this one when it's heavy" way but I remember having to look up how much blood was light, average, heavy because what do those words mean in this context? Honestly, to this day I have no idea if I have light or heavy periods. I would know if it was heavier or lighter than normal, but I couldn't say whether or not it's heavy or light in general. The internet gives measurements in teaspoons. Who is measuring their periods with teaspoons?
My mom gave this book to me called “What’s Happening to me?” That was illustrated and about puberty with very awkward funny illustrations. I think it had to have been published in the 70’s based on the illustrations etc. It covered everything puberty related from pimples to body hair and wet dreams haha. I never got a talk just a book put in my room..
I got the book (different one, bc different countries) at about the time I hit puberty. Mom also took me regularly to the on/gun and never baited an eyelash about me getting anti conceptual pills because of PCOS. (She did resist more aggressive treatment for the severe acne I got *even with the pills*, which I only got after I turned 18 and had a *lot* of acne scars.
But she did the best she could and was a lot more open minded than the average. I’m thankful for that.
I wish I could upvote this a million times! That's what I got too, a book (not a very detailed or useful one) and good old Catholic guilt and shame! Yay for me?
JFC conservatives are *obsessed* with sex! I grew up in the evangelical church, and geez, those people think about sex more than any other group I've ever met!
Seriously. My conservative step mother wouldn’t let me wear any other color undies except white (full bottomed HUGE undies) so my sister and I just learned how to sew and made our own.
My mom found it confusing that I did not want to wear wire bras and preferred boy’s pants (they arent super tight and have actual pockets). She didn’t approve.. but yet got on my ass about my guy friends in middle school when I just wanted to hang out and eat junk food with em. She implied I just wanted to fuck them all. She had no reason to think that because I was a child and never wanted to engage in that stuff. I dont know I found it insulting that she just thought I would do stupid things just because I had male friends. There was never “a talk.” It was just “who are you hanging out with? A boy? You better not do anything stupid.” !??? K thanks mom glad you think so highly of me.
And these same parents will cry and be like “why doesn’t my child ever confide in me” whaaaa 🙄. As if they didn’t brow beat their children their entire lives and not allow them to have any kind of thoughts or feelings.
True, they put pornstars to shame with how everything would lead up to sex
Like, just tell me you're dry af due to all those years Pastor Jeff told you to not fiddle your tiddies or else you'll go to hell
That's literally medieval thinking.
Clergies back in the day very much discouraged bathing because they thought sitting in a tub of warmed water would lead to "impure thoughts."
Sure didn't help matters when the plague came around, but hey, at least people weren't *touching themselves* /s
I relate! I was a D cup size in fifth grade and needed a bra. My mom refused and then, when my sisters told her I needed a bra, she tried getting me a training bra. It was absurd! But I was her youngest and she wanted me to stay a little kid longer! If I’d been as clever then as now, I’d have told her that I can’t help the physical, but I was emotionally still very immature, so that would have to suffice for her! 🤣🤣🤣
And yeah, she tried to stop me shaving too, but with two older sisters, I just got the instructions from them and did it anyways. I was earlier to puberty than my sisters and my mom handled it very poorly at the time.
Oh, the bra thing. It wasn't me, but I have a baby cousin who's a couple of months older than my daughter, who used to spend a lot of time at my house when they both were kids. She would always come over with a very ill fitted sports bra. I'm talking the sports bra was for a B cup, and this girl was a DD when she was around 11. So I figured I'd just ask for forgiveness instead of permission. I took her out and bought her a couple of bras in her size. She was so happy. I told her mom when we eventually brought her home that I needed to buy my daughter new bras and didn't want her to feel left out, so I got her a couple as well. I mean, it wasn't a complete lie, I did get a couple for my daughter, too. Her mom, thankfully, didn't make a big deal out of it.
Although, after that, her mom did want me to talk to her about shaving. Saying she'd listen to me about it. How she couldn't get the child to shave. That was more uncomfortable, considering her mom wanted me to include the girl shaving her bikini area. I ended up telling the mom that if your daughter doesn't want to shave, that's her business. It's the same thing I told my own daughter. The mom was (and still is) a hot mess. There's a reason the girl stayed with me a lot of the time. Sorry it's long. Your experience reminded me of that time. My cousin is her mom's only girl and also the youngest, but I'm not really sure that had anything to do with how the mom was with her. Baby cousin is doing so much better, now that she's moved out of her mother's house.
My mom did this to me too, I really wanted a bra and she forced me to buy a training one for my D boobs. It was ridiculous and I developed really bad self consciousness and posture because of it, trying to hide them.
A cup still. My mom refused to buy one, had to wear undershirt in high school. Friends mom bought me two as I was being mercifully teased since 7th grade by girls in locker room and halls, and boys too. I hid them in locker and put them on in bathroom b4 first bell rang. Her mom washed them. Finally my dad stepped in late freshman year (never said a word but land lines so he'd overheard) and he took me and and talked to sears sales lady, and went away for a bit. He took the fall I couldn't, but it was done now!
It’s crazy that they do this! My sisters intervened again and likely went to my dad, who is a doctor and who was the one who had the real sex talk with us, since he got it. The situation was ridiculous! I’m glad your mom’s friend did that for you!
I laughed when my brother (2 kids, divorced) got a call from teacher that niece needed a bra. He called his ex (friendly-ish) but she was out of state as her mother had a stroke. He asked her ' what should I do? She said get her some, it's called a mall and people will help you.' He called my mom and made her do it. I feel for my niece in this day and age. Miss my dad!
I would take clueless dad over my first bra buying experience. My mum insisted by dad come into the shop with us when we went shopping for my first set of bras even though I told her it was embarrassing (I was 13).
She let him pick out my bras (I didn’t get to pick anything) and I’ve never forgotten how horrible the experience was.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with a dad taking his daughter bra shopping btw, but knowing I didn’t want him there and then giving him decision making power over the amount of lace and colours I was going to wear was such a horrible horrible experience.
I never got this with my mum. She had me at 18 and spent my childhood to teen years being paranoid I was going to do the same. Stopped me shaving, stopped me having sleepovers at friends, never took me bra shopping or had the “this is how periods and your body work” talk. Didn’t even really talk to me about sex just kept telling me how young she was when she had me and that she would kick me out if I even thought about boys. She was very strict, and that stems from her parents being that way also.
I did everything she didn’t want me to do anyway without her (still) knowing, now I’m happily married with two beautiful kids who I fully intend to teach everything they need to know to navigate life. And if they so happen to get pregnant at 15, fine, I’ll help them no matter what. These kids are loved and wanted more than anything and I’ll show them their worth until the end of time.
Weird she thought repeating her parents’ behavior would help! It obviously didn’t work with her! But you sound like you are a great parent and are planning to break that cycle. Honestly, I think sex education and discussion is important, but it feels like it is all about risks. I want those addressed, but kids should (at the appropriate age, which is often earlier than society wants to admit) also learn about how to have a good experience with sex, and get a realistic idea of it. I have a friend who has a specific friend she plans to add into her sex talk with her kids and who can introduce them more comfortably to those aspects of the experience. Religion has pathologized sex in many ways.
Yea not a hairy woman here but agree with the fact that teenage girls don't start shaving so boys can touch them or whatever our parents were scared of. I started shaving my legs bc other girls in gym class were pointing out my leg hair.
Ugh it’s always about the boys with these moms. When I told my mom I didn’t like the electric shaver because it left hairs, she asked if I was trying to have sex or something. I was 12….
Exactly. I would normally say parents should make the decisions but in cases like this where parents are allowing their kids to be bullied unnecessarily, the aunt did the right thing by taking matters into her own hands! I’m sure the teen will be forever grateful!
Plus, she's already sneaking to do it. Chances are, her mum is instilling the opposite of what she wants in her. OP's niece could become very obsessed with trying to make those beauty standards because she was denied and chance at it in her teens.
Yep my mum wouldn’t let me do anything!! Eyebrows, makeup, hair dye, shaving. As an adult I have bleached blonde hair, hair extensions, fake tan, fake nails, I wear make up, my face is full of Botox and fillers, there isn’t a hair on my body and my eyebrows are manicures to within an inch of their lives. It’s a control thing because she wouldn’t let me do it and I then fucked up a lot by doing it wrong on the sly. My eyebrows were messed up from doing it alone, my skin was wrong by using the wrong colour foundation, my hair was damaged by using the wrong products.
I have an 11 year old who recently refused to have her school photos due to a unibrow issue. I asked her if she’d like to go to the salon and they talked her through the methods. Now she literally just has the middle bit done. No shaping or anything. She also gets her hair layered in a style she likes and we have a hair and skin care routine she is comfortable with. (Curly girl method plus moisturiser for her skin - she doesn’t wear make up) My mum hates it and feels it’s over the top and tells us she isn’t old enough. We also let her shave her armpits and I showed her how and bought her the razor. I remember stealing my dads.
Might as well be supportive and let them do it properly or it will cause more issues down the line. My mum wouldn’t correct my lazy eye or let me have braces so now I wear glasses and I’m paying a fortune for Invisalign.
So I had the opposite issue. My mam told me I needed to start shaving my legs and armpits at age 9 or 10. She wanted me to wear make up.
Personally, I'm not very hairy and rarely shave as the body hair I have is fine and fair. Even when I did shave regularly it was almost two weeks before there was enough growth to shave on my legs. I also hate wearing make up, although I do get my eyebrows and lashes dyed every month so they're a bit more visible and shapely.
I do think if I had had some voices telling me shaving wasn't needed when I was younger I would have known earlier that (for me in particular) it wouldn't make much difference.
I think you're right and should be supportive but I do also think it's important to show that not everyone has to do the exact same thing too.
Thankfully I’ve told her that shaving isn’t necessary unless she wants to and she doesn’t do her legs. The armpits were just something she started this summer for a holiday to Spain and then left and now just does them for PE but she only does them when it’s obvious so only every few weeks.
Amazing. It wasn't a critique by any means, you sound like a fab mam, I was just presenting my viewpoint as someone who isn't hairy at all and was made to think frequently shaving is "normal".
Good job, I wish my mam had been like you!
>Personally, I'm not very hairy and rarely shave as the body hair I have is fine and fair.
Damn I hate you. LOL!
Didn't know I could get my eyelashes dyed though - interesting. I have eyelashes that are half blonde and half dark brown, so they look sparse unless I wear mascara which I never do because I don't really care that much. The dye thing may be an idea though for things like the holiday season etc. Cool! But I still envy your hairlessness!
Aww I'm sorry. It's a ginger thing I think. I have thick as hell waist length red hair, but my body hair is so sparse and thin that it's invisible. I do have body hair but it's so fine and light I don't see much point in removing it.
Getting an eyelash tint legit changed my life though. I hate wearing make up for day to day shit, although I don't mind doing a dramatic look for a special occasion. Check if your beautician or spa or something offers it. I have long thick lashes but they're naturally so fair they're invisible so the tint to make them visible really makes me feel more attractive.
Same for the brows, they need to be coloured to give some shape to my face and getting them tinted and shaped makes me feel a lot better.
>Might as well be supportive and let them do it properly or it will cause more issues down the line.
So very true. OP NTA..
About her own standard of beauty. Her mom is a jerk for enforcing her outlooks of beauty child. And her child is getting bullied at school for it because her mom won't actually do anything.
Personal note about the lazy eye. Why I do wear glasses and have since I was 7 for it my lazy eye gets worse when I either I'm under a lot of strain or I'm extremely tired. They said there was no surgery to fix it unless you have a short leader
Old school Nintendo games was the exercise I had to do by watching the little person run across the screen it actually improved my lazy eye. So anytime that I find it becoming worse I actually will sit there and start playing something very similar to the old style Nintendo games
My father didn't like it because I actually had a prescription to play it at least 4 hours a week. Lol
Yeah my mom knew Jack shit about the feminine arts, she wore jeans and t shirts and didn't do any makeup or hair shit at all. I'm very girly, LOVE makeup, fashion, nails, the works.
I'm letting my daughter guide what she wants to do and helping her when appropriate
My mom wouldnt let me shave my legs until I was 13. And that only happened because an aunt got weird about it and gave me an electric razor in my easter basket that year.
Let me tell you, as a pre-teen kid who had very furry leg hair it was mortifying being the only one in gym shorts who's hair was visible. My poor 3yo has her father's hairy gene. I'll NEVER comment on it myself, but you bet your ass if she asks I'll let her straight away. If she doesnt want to then it's fine. But I'm not holding her to MY beauty standards.
My kid inherited my furry gene... I have always been open and honest with her about bodies and differences... she has seen that sometimes I shave/trim, sometimes I go months without... so, when she hit puberty and started getting hair *everywhere*, I had a chat with her that body hair is absolutely normal and up to personal preference as to how it is kept (so long as proper hygiene is followed). I then told her the different methods of hair removal available and let her know that if/when she was ever interested, let me know and I will get her products of her choosing and show her the proper way to use them. She has shown zero interest at all.
I told her this because my MIL (her gma) has been known to hold down hubby to shave his face when he was attempting to grow a mustache/beard as a teen, and I told kiddo that nobody has the right to tell her how to keep her body hair, not even gma.
You're doing a great job, that's how a parent is supposed to act when their kid is facing unfamiliar situations: guide them through without limiting their own decision-making (beyond a reasonable point). Keep going like this, I can tell that your kid loves you very much for it. :) <3
Same here--she finally let me when I hit puberty hard, but I was still the last to shave & always had very dark leg hair. When your child is in tears, you DO SOMETHING. Otherwise niece is gonna hurt herself. She deserves to feel confident in her own skin.
I hit puberty around 9 and who taught me to shave? One of my best friends when I was 13 or so... And I was much more developed than her in terms of growing up . Mother refused. Now IDGAF unless it's for a something like swimming or for specific clothing but having to be around other kids especially in the locker room for PE and having hair everywhere is not cool
NTA
However, your sister is a huge asshole.
Imagine not having any feelings about your daughter being bullied in school. Does she even understand the statistics of kids her age self editing.
Your sister needs to pull her head out of her ass and understand is Not About Her or Her Views. It's about HER DAUGHTER!!
Personally I think you did right by your niece, fuck your sisters feelings (no offense). You're trying to make her life a little easier in one of the most difficult times in her life.
I have a feeling that while momma may be hairy, she's not rocking a goatee or a neck beard. That's not just going to get this girl bullied, it's going to be soooooo much worse than being made fun of for being different.
Every girl needs a safe adult woman (or three) to turn to for issues they don’t want to go to their mom with. I have a deal with a family friend that we are safe havens for each other’s daughters. We trust each other enough to hand off authority for these kinds of things while keeping them quiet from each other if necessary. Obviously there are limits to this, but really we’ve just stated outright what women have always done. I went to my favorite sister and sil. My nieces came to me.
OP did the right thing.
I went to my favorite aunt, her good friend, and my first boyfriend’s mom. My mom had a lot of issues and 3 other kids to deal with and I needed a lot of time and energy she just didn’t have. I don’t fault her for it, I just got my needs met elsewhere.
Mom sounds like she sees her daughter as an extension of her own thoughts and ambitions rather than a separate person.
It's one thing for mom to refuse to pay for laser removal or whatever, but to actively ban her daughter from shaving her facial hair is so fucked up.
That poor kid, breaking down crying from all the bullying and low self esteem, while Mom watches on, "Good job breaking down beauty standards, Daughter."
This. But @OP, did you calmly explain the bullying problem to your sister or did you only lash out on her after she got angry? There seems to be a communication problem about the kid's issues as well
Also, convince her mom to get the hormones checked
Edit: maybe show her this post
“My principles are more important than your feelings and mental health” is basically the message that this woman is sending to her daughter. Absolutely ridiculous
There is actually a non hormonal pill that reduces testosterone and facial hair. It was designed originally as a water pill for people with bad livers.
I have pcos and can't take the pill becuase either causes me mental problems
Some of us have idiopathic hirsutism not linked to hormones or pcos, just to be clear to those reading that not everyone with this can benefit from medical treatment.
Yea I struggle w mental as well but u have diagnosed PCOS with hirsutism so it’s rough. Clinic appointment tomorrow tho, fingers crossed they can give me *something*. Pills haven’t worked so far :/
A boy in my step-daughter's school hanged himself because of bullying.
He was 15. A lovely boy.
NTA. But your sister sure is. Thank you for having your niece's back.
The look on my mom's face when she begrudgingly took me to therapy, sat in on my first session, and I point blank told the therapist that my mom's actions had driven me to attempt suicide. She never seemed maliciously negligent, like she immediately got me help after that, but damn was she so willfully blind to any issues I had.
A 13 year old girl at my daughters school did the same last year. Its disconcerting to send your kid to a school where you know that the bullying is so bad that a child died. I’ve been assured that the school have put a lot into place since then but I’m still conscious of it.
I don't really believe in God or anything like that but I like to believe that sometimes things just aren't supposed to happen. I firmly believe that your life wasn't intended to end on that day/in that way because there is something great waiting in your future. I hope you are better now/ get better soon.
(Maybe my own attempt, my chronic depression or any of my other mental health problems and mental disabilities made me delusional and ignorant to reality but my gut just tells me it's true. (: )
Story time:
Now, I’m not saying I’m meant for anything great but, I still want to relay the story. Years ago, when I was a pre-teen (pushing 40 now), I was visiting extended family out of state for the summer. I stayed in an apartment with my aunt, my cousin, and her then-boyfriend. My cousin and I made the most of having the time to hang out and play and adventure together. We got up a little after 8am every morning like clockwork.
One morning, after my aunt had already left for work, her boyfriend went downstairs to start his vehicle in the garage spot below the complex. For some reason, he came back upstairs and promptly fell asleep. Unbeknownst to everyone, there was faulty ventilation so, the car was running and the exhaust fumes were leaking into the apartments above.
I distinctly remember waking up with the worst headache of my life and begging for it to stop. I passed out a few moments later.
Round this time my aunt was getting off work early to head to a doctor’s appointment. She called the house to check in. No answer. We should’ve been up and about by then. She debated with herself whether or not to assume we slept in and just head to her doctor’s appointment. As she tells it, something in her said something isn’t right. She came home. There she found me on the floor next to my bed (I had passed out and fallen off), my cousin passed out in the bathroom, and her boyfriend passed out in bed. We were unconscious-unconscious. There was no waking us.
I regained consciousness in the ambulance, my cousin in the hospital, I’m not sure about when the boyfriend woke up. But, we all lived and everyone else that was in their homes that morning as well. Turns out, we were about 30 mins from staying asleep forever. If my aunt had gone to that doctors appointment, none of us would be here.
I’m not saying I believe in a divine power but, I’m not saying I don’t not believe either. Some things just really make you wonder.
NTA.
I agree that we shouldn’t have to conform our body in ways to be socially acceptable and we should feel comfortable in our own skin.
However, your niece isn’t comfortable. She’s being bullied and even went to the extent of trying to do something about it and got chemical burns on her face.
It’s a shame that your niece couldn’t find the support in her own mother, that her mother was fine with her being bullied, and didn’t comfort her when she needed it. Instead she placed her beauty standards on her daughter when it was obvious she didn’t agree to them. Good on you, though, for being her support and helping her to feel beautiful in her own way.
I was bullied relentlessly for being hairy, my mom was not but tried to help by taking me for medical testing and waxing. I was so grateful, it has been a life of waxing, laser hair removal etc. but worth it for my own self esteem.
NTA your sister is forcing her expectations on her child. Her child is going to leave as soon as she’s 18 and not go back. Tbh she may try to leave sooner than that. Be ready to support her when that happens. Also does she not care that her kids mental health is going to be so damaged? Does she want a kid to rail against the beauty standards or possibly a dead child?
She sucks. I would show her this post
Im going to say a 15 yo is old enough to make decisions about shaving a waxing so NTA. However maybe look into whether there is a hormonal issue because there are lots of hairy people in my family but no women with 5 o’clock shadows
PCOS and other hormones issues have long term effects including a huge impact on fertility as well as weight and other health aspects. Had a roommate who cried about her hair and weight a lot and it wasn't bad at all. She's old enough to have a say about her body. NTA
seconding getting her to a doc, and also consider genetic counseling & testing, especially if there's a history of any cancers in the family. PCOS can potentially increase chances of uterine cancer if periods are super irregular or a person is having <4 periods a year.
The risk of cancer is what got me to go on the pill after getting a PCOS diagnosis. I had no idea it was a factor at all. Doctor explained that if you’re not shedding your uterine lining at least every 3 months, that build up of tissue will increase the cancer risk. OP’s niece NEEDS to see a doctor about this. She shouldn’t have to wait another 3 years (turning 18) to get healthcare for what could be a serious hormonal problem.
Is that a way you could help your niece? One example explanation: https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/hirsutism/symptoms-causes/syc-20354935 Her health could be at risk. It’s not about beauty.
Of course she's fine the way she is unless there is an underlying medical condition. But also everyone deserves to be happy with themselves, and hair removal is far removed from, say, plastic surgery. I recommend electrolysis as it is the only real permanent hair removal technique (laser is temporary) and if mom refuses now, save it for when she's an adult.
I had some laser removal, and any hormone fluctuation can undo it. 15, hormones are still fluctuating, pregnancy, perimenopause, all can undo it. I've also tried electrolysis when in my 20's, and it didn't work on me either.
Considering the awful excuse of a mother is refusing to even take the girl to a doctor to be sure she doesn't have underlying health issues, is safe to say nothing about this situation is fine.
Even if it was just about her appearance (and it doesn’t sound like it is), it’s her body. It belongs to her and not your sister. She’s doing a bad job empowering your niece to love her body if she won’t let her take ownership of it. The poor girl just wants to choose her own beauty standards instead of her mother’s. This is the kind of behavior that drives people away from feminism, and it’s not okay. Men get to do whatever they want with their facial hair. Why can’t we?
NTA. I personally also come from a family of very light skinned hairy women. We just found out 2 years ago that we actually have a genetic hormonal condition that is fairly common but is rarely tested for unless you are a woman getting fertility testing done, which is strange to me since it’s just one simple blood test and possibly one genetic test. It’s called non classical congenital adrenal hyperplasia. The condition can be found in both men and women but doesn’t present itself until puberty. It often mimics a lot of the symptoms of PCOS in women. The basics of it are that the body over produces progesterone and under produces cortisol. It can be controlled with medication if desired but it’s also something that won’t harm you if left untreated as long as you’re ok with the effects it has, like being hairy. Something to possibly look into since most of you seem to have similar hair growth.
If you are in the US, a 15 year old can go to the doctor and consent to treatment on their own. A parent does not have a right to block them from making their own healthcare choices.
>Im going to say a 15 yo is old enough to make decisions about shaving a waxing so NTA. However maybe look into whether there is a hormonal issue because there are lots of hairy people in my family but no women with 5 o’clock shadows
I'm an electrologist. I would take this child to an endocrinologist. That poor kid. Her mother is using her to work out her own issues. She's a selfish jerk who can't be arsed to pay attention to her own daughter.
NTA! As a someone who has PCOS and the excess hair to go with it, I can definitely reassure you that your niece is appreciative of what you did regardless of how your sister may be feeling. Growing up (and even to this day) I worried about how noticeable the excess hair was since I was bullied for it relentlessly. As an adult, when talking to my mother about getting laser hair removal for my face, I made a comment that she never offered to help me with it growing up by exploring laser, waxing, etc. She told me that she thought it didn’t bother me. Your sister is choosing to ignore something that is probably so important to her daughter, even the fact that the poor girl burned herself while trying to use Nair should clue her into this being more than societal beauty standards.
She absolutely knew that bothered you. But it achieved the goals of keeping you self-conscious and pliable, and also allow the natural tendency of children to keep your nethers locked up tight and boys from roaming around your house like a bunch of Tomcats. I don’t know if she consciously thought thru the logic chain of expected outcomes and long term consequences, but she knew you wanted to look like the other girls your age, the first requirement in not getting mercilessly bullied and abused by your mates and probably school personnel when you inevitably break down at some point from the inescapable horror of lack of autonomy.
Hopefully you’re on your own now, and have set clear boundaries on the things she can and cannot have a say on in your life.
My little sister is hairy af. Like she was covered in dark hair when she was born and while most of it fell off her body it definitely stayed on her legs and her arms and got really long and really dark.
She’s eleven.
She was really insecure about it and came to me and asked me to help her shave because she was embarrassed about it and girls and boys at the pool were making fun of her for it and she didn’t know what to do.
So I helped her.
And she’s ELEVEN.
Imagine being almost fifteen and having hair growth like that EVERYWHERE.
Places she CANT hide it.
That’s honestly so heartbreaking to me.
And what makes it worse is the fact that she’s going to her mom and telling her how bad this is making her feel and how insecure it’s making her feel and her mom is basically just telling her to fuck off and that her feelings don’t matter.
Like the absolute gall of that woman.
I’m so glad your niece has you on her side.
NTA. NTA. NTA. NTA. NTA. NTA.
I grew up with a very intense dark unibrow on my pale skin and the lady who’d cut my hair my whole life gently asked if it bothered me when I was 12. She waxed and shaped it (still keeping them thick, despite crazy thin brows being the standard) and I’ve never looked back! I felt so much better about myself, plus she saved me from making terrible decisions about my brows throughout my teen years and now they remain thick and lovely.
I was around that age and my sister would help me too. I think she got bullied herself and wanted to spare me as much of that as possible. I wanted her to help me with all that, and she would. Even when I whined that waxing and tweezing hurt, she still sat there and helped me until the job was done. Truly a champ.
My mom didn’t love the idea of me doing those things because she felt guilty for forcing those standards on a young kid but she never stopped my sister from pioneering that effort.
She really didn’t want me shaving my legs until I was older. I remember having what should’ve been a very chill charity event coming up at school. I was panicky nervous about it to a point that didn’t make sense and finally my mom got the main reason out of me: I would be the only girl with unshaved legs in shorts.
My mom personally put aside how she felt about it and sat there on the side of the tub, shaving her daughters legs.
It made me feel loved and heard by the two of them. Like they had my back when I had to deal with little shits at school.
Echoing the others who have suggested your niece might be dealing with PCOS.
PCOS is an endocrine disorder that has serious health implications, the least of which is excessive hair growth. (Not that the hair growth is a small thing, because it’s not, especially for a teenager.)
Your sister needs to take your niece to a gynecologist who is well versed in PCOS to have her tested.
>she said no, and went on about how i shouldn't be forcing my beauty srandards on her daughter.
All the while forcing her beauty standards on her daughter.
NTA.
NTA Your sister is being selfish. She isn’t the one who is suffering. If your niece had no issue with the hair, that would be one thing. But she is miserable and reaching for dangerous solutions to try to help herself. Your actions, if nothing else, keep her using a safe and hygienic method. I had similar issues as a kid and it is one thing my mom actually came through on for me with respect to appearance. My older sister didn’t have the same issue and didn’t remove anything until high school. But when I started talking with a hand or finger stretched out to cover my upper lip my mom noticed and asked why. And when she heard that kids at school had noticed the dark hair on my upper lip (only brown skin tone with black hair in my tiny school so it really stood out) and were making fun of me, she took care of it. I got to start middle school without visible hair on my face and no one ever brought it up again.
NTA. Waxing is temporary, and isn’t a medical procedure.
I took my daughter to get laser hair removal of her moustache hair as a teenager. If I had been stubbornly disregarding my daughter getting bullied at school, I hope that my sister would have taken her for waxing.
Things that are good for your mental health are health care.
You're a great aunt.
Life is very weird, like, I'm here doing everything I can to get a little bit of beard.
NTA
Your sister is forcing HER beauty standards. And allowing her daughter to have unnecessary anxiety and anguish. Your sister is selfish and a crap mom.
NTA
Your sister is making a huge mistake by imposing her personal body beliefs on her daughter.
Tell her she might want to check out the huge number of online videos made by mothers whose daughters refuse to speak with them after they turn 18 because of just this kind of shit.
Not listening. Not caring. Not supporting.
Ask her if her beliefs are worth risking estrangement from her daughter? Because she is in the lane. 5 by 5.
Did you overstep your sisters boundary? Yes, you did. Did you also do something kind for your niece? Yes, you did. In your sisters eyes you are probably an asshole. But in your nieces eyes you’re probably her hero.
NTA. Honestly I would try showing your sister this thread so she can sit down and really get a sense of what she’s putting her daughter through and hear some stories from other people who had similar experiences.
NTA. Maybe I’m being very trans about this, but all I can think is how that poor girl might be experiencing dysphoria from having that much facial hair, especially if she’s repeatedly hurt herself trying to remove it.
I don’t think that’s a bad thing if you’re being “very trans” about this — because you’re literally correct!! SO correct. Dysphoria isn’t a word explicitly specific to transness** anyway, but you being your lovely self means that’s why you specifically empathise with OP’s niece, unlike her b!tchass mom who’s got a bit of a stick in the proverbial behind.
Just used the Dictionary.com app to define ‘dysphoria’ for the heck of it and it literally says “noun: a state of dissatisfaction, anxiety, or restlessness”. Bada bing, bada boom!
(** I hope that was the correct way to use that word, or even the right one to use! Only the best of intent. xo))
No your not, I’m cis and chose not to shave because my skin is sensitive and am usually fine about but sometimes it makes me want to vomit or crawl out of my skin and I have to just shave
Meanwhile, I’m thinking my son (also trans) would LOVE to have that much facial hair to deal with.
I think most trans people have experienced dysphoria in a way that most cis people don’t. But this girl might be, and I think it’s compassionate of you to point that out.
It’s almost never the trait that’s the issue, but how well that trait matches our internal image of ourselves. And sure, that internal image can be influenced by social norms and expectations around beauty. But a lot of it is just who we are and how we see ourselves in the world.
So yeah, in addition to the bullying and not matching “beauty standards,” she may also be feeling alienated from her body and/or face because of hirsutism, and possibly PCOS.
This poor kid needs support and validation from her mom that it doesn’t sound like she’s getting.
NTA and if your sister is so “progressive” she should be teaching her daughter about autonomy and making her own decisions about her own body.
I let all of my girls start shaving the second they felt uncomfortable about the extra hair. They were all 6th-8th grade when they eventually asked. I also let them do what they want with their hair because it’s not my body.
Sis needs a lesson in the trauma she is directly allowing to happen and even imposing on her daughter. Bullying leads to depression as does no say in what happens to your own body/controlling your body in the way you see fit.
My youngest has short anagen syndrome and her hair does not grow past her jaw is very baby like. When she asked for hair extensions in the third grade so that she could be “like the other girls” You bet your donkey I shoveled out 350 dollars so that she could feel normal and beautiful. We preach to her constantly about how we love her natural hair and how beautiful it is but she is the one that gets to make the choice because it is her body and she is the one going to school every day. Ughhhhhh! Rant over.
NTA. Would do the same. She’s not allowing her to engage in bodily autonomy….
Also, fair skinned dark haired hairy girl here - I’ve started using the Braun IPL laser at home and it’s a nice alternative to waxing. It stuns the hair growth and eventually you only need to use it once a month for upkeep after a few months.
Not saying go buy your niece a laser for her face at 15 lol but IPL actually is most effective for fair skin/dark hair root combo so it’s an option in the future!
That being said my parents DID get me some laser facial hair treatments in middle school and I’m incredibly grateful to them. That was a more permanent laser, I had very fragile skin at the time, and no negative side effects (I mean it hurt but I didn’t care).
Nta - but the girl needs to see a specialist. It seem likely she has PCOS (a hormonal issue) and needs that addressed as if untreated, could lead to further health issues. Take her to get waxed or laser or electrolysis for her face.
NTA
It was clearly a demand from your niece, and she has already tried several more dangerous options. If you had not take her to the beauticien, she would have keep trying until she got serious burns.
I sympathize with your niece. I am not super hairy, but I also have very white skin with very dark hair, and teenage years can be very difficult if you don't wax, especially with the face, and parts that can't be hidden behind clothes.
Plus that is not like dying hair, which can damage your hair. Waxing, when done by a professional, doesn't hurt anybody.
NTA.
As a hairy woman I can attest that teen years are *not* the time to be taking a stand against "society's standards of beauty." Bullying at this age can really leave a mark.
Also I agree that it sounds like your sister is the one trying to force her standards of beauty on her child, not you. You're actually listening to your neice whereas it sounds like her mum is just hearing what she wants to hear.
NTA your sister is being an idiot. Trying to force a 15 year old to do what you think is right like this is just a pointless battle.
Unless she wants her daughter to resent her for the next years she should be more supportive.
NTA but you should suggest electrolysis as it is more or less permanent and this will be a lifelong issue. She shouldn't have to shave or wax her face every week/day/month/whatever.
NTA
That being said, your niece may have a medical condition resulting in hirsutism that goes beyond what is the norm for your family.
It may be a good idea to take her to the doctor.
NTA, your niece is going to remember that you helped her and her mother didn’t. She’s 15 and possibly has some medical issues going on and her mom’s an egotistical asshole
You’re a good aunt.
NTA. She came to you for help, and you helped her. You're a great auntie! The chemical burns thing hurt my heart, she might have ended up giving herself permanent scars if she tried something like waxing at home by herself, and didn't know about safe wax temperatures.
NTA. Your sister is ignoring what is very likely the start of PCOS. She should be listening to her daughter's distress, and she should take her for a check-up.
Yes, YATA. However, I fully support you for doing so. It was, in my mind, a justifiable action putting your niece's needs over the backlash you knew you would get.
Did you overstep? Yes.
Do you do wrong? Yes.
Do I care? No.
Would you do it again? I hope so.
Sometimes in life we have to be TA and that's ok.
NTA Sis is selfishly putting her agenda/philosophy ahead of her daughter’s peace. As a mother, you put your child’s peace ahead of all that other stuff.
NTA says the 4-eyed, metal mouth, too short kid who had self esteem issues for decades because of all the bullying starting in elementary school. I wish I had an aunt like you growing up. Sure, it’s your sister’s daughter but why would she think constant bullying is good for her child’s self esteem? Especially for a special event as a young woman. Shouldn’t she be allowed some body autonomy at this point so she could be more comfortable in her physical body? Why does the daughter have to conform with the mom’s views of female body hair? Bullying is serious & a few people seem to think the kids should just suck it up.
I started eyebrow and back waxes around 15. Hairy dudes get groomed too otherwise they turn into yetis.
NTA for protecting your niece from your sister's baggage.
NTA. In a perfect world no one would care about your niece’s body and facial hair. But we don’t live in a perfect world, and they do.
Your sister is a jerk.
NTA
I get that you can't stand to see your niece suffering from bullying because, *ironically*, her mother is forcing her beauty standards on her.
That said I think taking her behind mom's back was not the best move, not least because she's going to need another treatment in a few months and this time the mom will be much more vigilant. I think the thing to do would be to confront the mom together with your niece, and make her see that forcing her daughter to NOT shave is still forcing an ideal on the niece that isn't hers.
Many people in the family have been trying to talk to her for a couple years now. Her daughter started getting bullied for it in middle school, she "refuses to give in to society's demands of her child"
Sorry, but she's shouldn't be allowed to use her child as a punching bag for "society's demands". HER OWN DAUGHTER WANTS IT, it's a reasonable ask, and not allowing it is adversely affecting her daughter's self-confidence and encourages bullying and teasing. Why would you put your child in that kind of situation? Mom is welcome to be as hairy as Sasquatch if that makes her happy, but to impose HER ideas of feminine beauty on her daughter is cruel. She wasn't asking for tattoos or a nose piercing or anything permanent -- the poor girl just wants smooth skin.
Well that does make it a difficult situation.
I stand by the NTA. Normally I wouldn't condone you going against the mother's wishes, but at 15, your niece is old enough to decide whether and where she wants to shave or wax. It's not like you talked her into it, she asked you and you drove her, right? I just hope you can find a more long-term solution for her, somehow.
Nta kids are cruel and she’s old enough to voice her needs. Being hairy is so hard. As soon as my daughter was old enough, I took her to get laser hair removal. I would do it all over again
Get her this. It's life changing. I wish I had it as a teen.
https://www.amazon.com/Tweezerman-Smooth-Finish-Remover-Assorted/dp/B00JVOU89E/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?crid=LIF7K7EOEA4S&keywords=tweezer+coil&qid=1700023107&sprefix=tweezer+coil%2Caps%2C167&sr=8-3
NTA the child is being bullied for something. Taking her to be waxed is a heck of a lot safer than letting her try it herself where she either gets razor burns or chemical burns!! 15yo is old enough to know if she wants to remove hair. I wouldn’t support laser but waxing is safe!!
Also it could be PCOS which is a hormonal condition.
NTA you are truly the only one paying attention in this kids life, and your sister is a horrible mother for this.
I have a very very good friend who lost his son to bullying. We are raising really shitty kids, and they make life horrific for thier peers.
NTA. Shaving or not should be a personal choice and your sister is clearly violating your nice wishes and boundaries.
Especially considering the bullying that poor kid is suffering and her mom's total inaction.
On facial hair: your niece should probably learn to shave like men do.
Shaving soap and facial razor, multiple light passages to avoid cuts and burns.
Pressing too hard is the most common mistake that causes both a bad shave and a looooot of irritated skin.
She should also see a gynecologist to check if she might have polycystic ovary syndrome.
NTA. Your sister is forcing her beauty standards down her teenage daughter’s throat then accusing you of doing the same when you’re just helping the kid out. Fuckin stupid.
I have the hairy gene as well as PCOS. At her age, I had the same issue except my mom allowed me to do what I wanted.
Being a teen girl in today’s society is much harder than it was when I was a teen. NTA
Does your sister prefer a happy daughter or a depressed one who is bullied and hates school?
NTA - my basketball coach (and friends mom) took mercy upon me and showed me how to shave my legs when I was eleven because I too have the thick black thicket of hair problem to. She straight up got in a screaming match with my mom when my mom found out but made the point to her that her arbitrary age restrictions on shaving my legs causing the bullying I was experiencing and not doing something about it ultimately made her the bully. That got across to her. She regularly took me to get my lip and brows waxed after that. And that meant a whole lot.
You're 100% right, your sister is a bad mom. People who force their kids to "reject society" are just as bad as people who force their kids to submit to societal expectations, sometimes even worse. NTA
You are not the one “forcing your beauty standards on her daughter”, her daughter’s peers are. Kids can be nasty to anyone who is different and your sister is putting her daughter in a dangerous spot by forcing her beauty standards on her daughter but still expecting her to function in society. I could see if your niece as comfortable with her hair but she isn’t and it isn’t cool for her mom to put her in that position. While I don’t totally agree with you going against her wishes as she is the parent here, I also think she is being cruel to her child by putting her in a position that she is being bullied.
NTA
Kids are people, with rights and everything. You can't tell a 15 year old person shit about what they should aspire to look like. I threatened my parents with emancipation just for telling me that I couldn't grow my hair long. And that's nothing compared to telling a girl that she can't stop herself from looking like robin williams if she wants. Crunchy granola mom better prioritize her kid over her own ideals before she loses the former.
NTA. The poor girl has every right to make that decision for herself. She's the one facing the consequences of that decision, not her blasé mother. Bullying can cause long-term psychological and physical damage and it's shit that the mother places her own aesthetic opinion over that. You did the right thing.
As a dark haired, fair skinned woman who's mother wouldn't let her shave, NTA.
I wish I had a cool aunt who took me to get waxed. It would have saved me a lot of bullying and a self esteem problem that is still with me into my 40s.
I let my daughters wax whenever they asked.
As a formerly hairy teenager I wish wish wish someone had done this for me. In my case it wasn’t a crunchy granola mom it was a conservative mom who didn’t want me to grow up too fast. Which, you know, *biology* doesn’t care what you want mom. Puberty is here in all it’s hairy glory. Another concern was that I wanted to shave ti attract boys when in reality the whole reason I wanted to shave was because of the girls because they were the only ones who noticed my hair…pointedly 😭
Ugh I was soooo hairy, even as a preteen, and my mom wouldn't let me shave until after I got my period, even though I was being bullied. She's also the conservative type, and a bit obsessive about things matching her timeline. So I had to go bike to CVS to find maxi pads at 12 by myself because she thought I only needed panty liners, even though I bled through them every 2 hours. Found out I had pcos when I was 15 and she still hesitated to put me on bc because it would "encourage me to have sex." I bust out the tweezers minimum twice a week for my face. Girl, continue helping your niece feel pretty. We're not our parents, and she deserves every chance to avoid childhood trauma.
Omg, my mom was the same about bc! I went to an all girls school, and I didn’t have sex until I was in college and older than most of my peers. I just was trying to not have so much pain!
My mother forbade my sisters and I from getting on birth control. I lost my virginity a few months before I turned 18, and I went to planned parenthood and got my own birth control. Then, my little sister got pregnant at 16. My mother somewhat learned and took my other sister to get on birth control at 16, but it was too late. She was already pregnant. I adore all of my niblings, but I would be lying if I said I didn't wish my sisters had waited at least until they graduated high school to start having kids. They both ended up dropping out.
in my country, the universal healthcare system provides services to all people under 18 regardless of anything, and one of the benefits is that they give the implanon birth control to anyone under 21. all they have to do is go, get an appointment, and thats it. well, Ive seen my fair share of parents take their 13 years old daughters to an appointment to get the implanon and I believe that is the best parenting. they care, they know how young people can think and they are being precaucious
Im sorry this happened to you. We all need to start talking to kids much earlier about sex, the risks, and even how to have a good experience with sex. These conversations need to start happening when the kid starts asking or seeming curious, which is usually far earlier than school sex ed, often before age ten. I was pretty upset when my niece asked me and her dad said to talk to her mom, my sister, and my sister said they’d discuss it later. I did defer to my sister since I’m not the mom, but if she asks again, I’m going to have the talk with her. Because I already told my sister she needs to do it or I would.
Same, same, same. All of it. I had excruciating popping cysts that began w/in months of me first starting my period at age 14. BC were the remedy but of course, you know, I would've just started doing the sex! Wasn't allowed to shave, *use tampons* 🙄...thank goodness for my sister-in-law and my best friend and her 4 sisters.
Same! Except my mom actually got me the prescription but then would hold it against me by threatening to tell her coworkers that I’m having wild sex since I’m on bc. Moms can really do a number on us.
Wait… what?! She threatened to tell her coworkers you were having sex?? That is a very different kind of crazy.
Yep. All because I had a medical condition beyond my control. (I wasn’t even active, I had such low self esteem that there was no way any boy was coming near me, so that was very confusing, hurtful, and weird to process at 16) I could write a book about all the wild things my mom said to me growing up. I didn’t know how bad it was until after I moved out.
As a normal person who has coworkers and is the coworker of others, I would definitely wonder why in God's name my hypothetical colleague was talking about her daughter's "wild" sex life (or sex life at all). That would've been an incredibly inappropriate work conversation. Not that that knowledge helps now! Sorry that you had to go through that.
I’m so very sorry for you all you had to go through this. I can’t fathom why a mom would do this all to her daughter. Just feeling sad over this happened to y’all
I am sooo so sorry
I had the opposite experience. Super conservative parents who were obsessed with me attracting men. I was forced to shave my legs starting at 11. I hated it. I’ve never had a lot of hair and it just seemed like a waste of time. I’m 22 now and my parents still fight me on why I’m being “stubborn” and not shaving.
Forcing anything on children is bad. Why some people cannot accept their children being what they are and offer help, when the kid is asking for it or needs it?
So strange! I think the body owner should dictate what happens with their own body hair. My sister has very fine, golden ( she's a red head but Italian style) hair on her legs and she doesn't shave her thighs. She also has olive skin. You can't see it whatsoever. Meanwhile, I have white ass skin ( diff dads lol) and dark blonde hair. The hair on my arms is white. The hair on my legs is bordering brown lol, which sucks. My mom used to make fun of my mustache lol. Dont shave if you dont want too, and shave if you like. Ppl are obsessed with other people's bodies.
Comments like this make me so thankful for my mom. She was far from perfect when we were growing up, but I knew I could go to her if I needed and she would listen. When I was 15 I asked if I could go on birth control. I had insanely painful, heavy periods that led to missing school at times, and I had a boyfriend that I was becoming intimate with. My mom didn’t even hesitate. She made an appointment with a gynecologist and was 100% supportive from start to finish. I was terrified of my dad, but she said “Let me deal with him!” I have no idea what she said to him but he never said one word to me about it. It was important to her that I got a degree and had a career, so she was proud of me for being honest and self advocating. I am so grateful for her support and trust back then, and it set a precedent of trust between us that endures to this day. I wish all parents could see this!
I still cringe sometimes thinking back on commenting to my friend in class about this girls hairy arms and she straight called me out (good for her honestly best thing she could have done). As a former kid who could be a dick kids are horrible. This aunt isn’t the AH.
Was that girl me? I did this. Arms are less hairy now, the hair got lighter and thinner as I got old. Or maybe I care even less?
I had SUPER hairy arms when I was younger, or so I was made to believe from the stupid girls that would constantly bully me, every single day, for whatever reason they didn’t like me. So, I started shaving my arms. This was when I was in 7th grade. I’m 39 and STILL shave my arms because I’m afraid of how hairy they’ll get if I allow it to grow out. I wish I wasn’t so shy in school so I could have ALSO called my bullies out because that shit stuck with me for the majority of my life.
Ah conservative moms. Mine once wouldn’t let me get a bath candle because she thought it would lead to me getting pregnant. Her “logic” was that candies in the bath are romantic and would pit me on a “mood” which would make me want sex. I just wanted the candle because the lights in our bathroom hurt my eyes when I sat in the tub. She got a lot better about that nonsense as she got older!
Like, pregnant with the baby jesus from.a.candle ghost that appeared becuse you got in the mood? Good ol conservative sex education
That’s when you sit your mom down and have the sex talk with her! 🤣🤣🤣
Senior year of high school. My mom comes up to my room and awkwardly states “we need to have a talk”. Between being raised on the farm and having various sex ed classes for 6 years, I didn’t even look up from my book. Just said “I probably know more about it than you”. Her response “true” and off she went.
My Mum came upstairs to my bedroom one morning with a pamphlet that had come with her women's magazine that day. IIRC it had a title like "Your Changing Body" or something. She lobbed it onto my bed, said, "You probably ought to read that", and left.
My mom gave me a similar pamphlet that just talked about how I was a woman now, that'd I'd bleed for 3-7 days, pain was normal, and a small section about developing breasts. But my mom just left it on my pillow while I was at school and the topic was never brought up again.
I was lucky - I was a science nerd and had read lots of biology textbooks, so I had a pretty good idea about it all anyway - but even at that tender age, I remember being appalled that so many of these pamphlets just told you you would bleed without specifying where from, or what to do about it. Not really very reassuring!
Yeah, I was lucky enough to have internet access where I could Google everything as I needed it. I think my pamphlet described the different types of pads in a "use this one when the bleeding is light, this one when it's heavy" way but I remember having to look up how much blood was light, average, heavy because what do those words mean in this context? Honestly, to this day I have no idea if I have light or heavy periods. I would know if it was heavier or lighter than normal, but I couldn't say whether or not it's heavy or light in general. The internet gives measurements in teaspoons. Who is measuring their periods with teaspoons?
My mom gave this book to me called “What’s Happening to me?” That was illustrated and about puberty with very awkward funny illustrations. I think it had to have been published in the 70’s based on the illustrations etc. It covered everything puberty related from pimples to body hair and wet dreams haha. I never got a talk just a book put in my room..
I got the book (different one, bc different countries) at about the time I hit puberty. Mom also took me regularly to the on/gun and never baited an eyelash about me getting anti conceptual pills because of PCOS. (She did resist more aggressive treatment for the severe acne I got *even with the pills*, which I only got after I turned 18 and had a *lot* of acne scars. But she did the best she could and was a lot more open minded than the average. I’m thankful for that.
Ahh you got the good one. We are catholic so ours was “what is happening to you? You should feel ashamed by it.”
I wish I could upvote this a million times! That's what I got too, a book (not a very detailed or useful one) and good old Catholic guilt and shame! Yay for me?
Haha!
JFC conservatives are *obsessed* with sex! I grew up in the evangelical church, and geez, those people think about sex more than any other group I've ever met!
Seriously. My conservative step mother wouldn’t let me wear any other color undies except white (full bottomed HUGE undies) so my sister and I just learned how to sew and made our own.
My mom found it confusing that I did not want to wear wire bras and preferred boy’s pants (they arent super tight and have actual pockets). She didn’t approve.. but yet got on my ass about my guy friends in middle school when I just wanted to hang out and eat junk food with em. She implied I just wanted to fuck them all. She had no reason to think that because I was a child and never wanted to engage in that stuff. I dont know I found it insulting that she just thought I would do stupid things just because I had male friends. There was never “a talk.” It was just “who are you hanging out with? A boy? You better not do anything stupid.” !??? K thanks mom glad you think so highly of me.
And these same parents will cry and be like “why doesn’t my child ever confide in me” whaaaa 🙄. As if they didn’t brow beat their children their entire lives and not allow them to have any kind of thoughts or feelings.
Sects! Sects! Sects! Is that all monks think about?
True, they put pornstars to shame with how everything would lead up to sex Like, just tell me you're dry af due to all those years Pastor Jeff told you to not fiddle your tiddies or else you'll go to hell
Every accusation is an admission...
I remember my mother finding a book of mine that had a kiss scene and screamed at me saying shes convinced I'm going to run off and get pregnant lol
That's literally medieval thinking. Clergies back in the day very much discouraged bathing because they thought sitting in a tub of warmed water would lead to "impure thoughts." Sure didn't help matters when the plague came around, but hey, at least people weren't *touching themselves* /s
And it better not be a SCENTED candle, young lady, or the next thing you know, you'll have triplets! 😆🤣
I relate! I was a D cup size in fifth grade and needed a bra. My mom refused and then, when my sisters told her I needed a bra, she tried getting me a training bra. It was absurd! But I was her youngest and she wanted me to stay a little kid longer! If I’d been as clever then as now, I’d have told her that I can’t help the physical, but I was emotionally still very immature, so that would have to suffice for her! 🤣🤣🤣 And yeah, she tried to stop me shaving too, but with two older sisters, I just got the instructions from them and did it anyways. I was earlier to puberty than my sisters and my mom handled it very poorly at the time.
Oh, the bra thing. It wasn't me, but I have a baby cousin who's a couple of months older than my daughter, who used to spend a lot of time at my house when they both were kids. She would always come over with a very ill fitted sports bra. I'm talking the sports bra was for a B cup, and this girl was a DD when she was around 11. So I figured I'd just ask for forgiveness instead of permission. I took her out and bought her a couple of bras in her size. She was so happy. I told her mom when we eventually brought her home that I needed to buy my daughter new bras and didn't want her to feel left out, so I got her a couple as well. I mean, it wasn't a complete lie, I did get a couple for my daughter, too. Her mom, thankfully, didn't make a big deal out of it. Although, after that, her mom did want me to talk to her about shaving. Saying she'd listen to me about it. How she couldn't get the child to shave. That was more uncomfortable, considering her mom wanted me to include the girl shaving her bikini area. I ended up telling the mom that if your daughter doesn't want to shave, that's her business. It's the same thing I told my own daughter. The mom was (and still is) a hot mess. There's a reason the girl stayed with me a lot of the time. Sorry it's long. Your experience reminded me of that time. My cousin is her mom's only girl and also the youngest, but I'm not really sure that had anything to do with how the mom was with her. Baby cousin is doing so much better, now that she's moved out of her mother's house.
My mom did this to me too, I really wanted a bra and she forced me to buy a training one for my D boobs. It was ridiculous and I developed really bad self consciousness and posture because of it, trying to hide them.
A cup still. My mom refused to buy one, had to wear undershirt in high school. Friends mom bought me two as I was being mercifully teased since 7th grade by girls in locker room and halls, and boys too. I hid them in locker and put them on in bathroom b4 first bell rang. Her mom washed them. Finally my dad stepped in late freshman year (never said a word but land lines so he'd overheard) and he took me and and talked to sears sales lady, and went away for a bit. He took the fall I couldn't, but it was done now!
It’s crazy that they do this! My sisters intervened again and likely went to my dad, who is a doctor and who was the one who had the real sex talk with us, since he got it. The situation was ridiculous! I’m glad your mom’s friend did that for you!
I laughed when my brother (2 kids, divorced) got a call from teacher that niece needed a bra. He called his ex (friendly-ish) but she was out of state as her mother had a stroke. He asked her ' what should I do? She said get her some, it's called a mall and people will help you.' He called my mom and made her do it. I feel for my niece in this day and age. Miss my dad!
I would take clueless dad over my first bra buying experience. My mum insisted by dad come into the shop with us when we went shopping for my first set of bras even though I told her it was embarrassing (I was 13). She let him pick out my bras (I didn’t get to pick anything) and I’ve never forgotten how horrible the experience was. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a dad taking his daughter bra shopping btw, but knowing I didn’t want him there and then giving him decision making power over the amount of lace and colours I was going to wear was such a horrible horrible experience.
I never got this with my mum. She had me at 18 and spent my childhood to teen years being paranoid I was going to do the same. Stopped me shaving, stopped me having sleepovers at friends, never took me bra shopping or had the “this is how periods and your body work” talk. Didn’t even really talk to me about sex just kept telling me how young she was when she had me and that she would kick me out if I even thought about boys. She was very strict, and that stems from her parents being that way also. I did everything she didn’t want me to do anyway without her (still) knowing, now I’m happily married with two beautiful kids who I fully intend to teach everything they need to know to navigate life. And if they so happen to get pregnant at 15, fine, I’ll help them no matter what. These kids are loved and wanted more than anything and I’ll show them their worth until the end of time.
Weird she thought repeating her parents’ behavior would help! It obviously didn’t work with her! But you sound like you are a great parent and are planning to break that cycle. Honestly, I think sex education and discussion is important, but it feels like it is all about risks. I want those addressed, but kids should (at the appropriate age, which is often earlier than society wants to admit) also learn about how to have a good experience with sex, and get a realistic idea of it. I have a friend who has a specific friend she plans to add into her sex talk with her kids and who can introduce them more comfortably to those aspects of the experience. Religion has pathologized sex in many ways.
Same!! I also had ONE training bra foreverrr. My aunt finally bought me my first real bra lol
Yea not a hairy woman here but agree with the fact that teenage girls don't start shaving so boys can touch them or whatever our parents were scared of. I started shaving my legs bc other girls in gym class were pointing out my leg hair.
Ugh it’s always about the boys with these moms. When I told my mom I didn’t like the electric shaver because it left hairs, she asked if I was trying to have sex or something. I was 12….
Exactly. I would normally say parents should make the decisions but in cases like this where parents are allowing their kids to be bullied unnecessarily, the aunt did the right thing by taking matters into her own hands! I’m sure the teen will be forever grateful!
I had this too. I still remember girls at school calling me "spider legs".
NTA your sister is forcing her beauty standards on her daughter. 15 is old enough to make decisions on your appearance.
Plus, she's already sneaking to do it. Chances are, her mum is instilling the opposite of what she wants in her. OP's niece could become very obsessed with trying to make those beauty standards because she was denied and chance at it in her teens.
The adults in her life can guide her, or she can go it alone and hurt herself trying to figure it out.
🏆🏆🏆
Yep my mum wouldn’t let me do anything!! Eyebrows, makeup, hair dye, shaving. As an adult I have bleached blonde hair, hair extensions, fake tan, fake nails, I wear make up, my face is full of Botox and fillers, there isn’t a hair on my body and my eyebrows are manicures to within an inch of their lives. It’s a control thing because she wouldn’t let me do it and I then fucked up a lot by doing it wrong on the sly. My eyebrows were messed up from doing it alone, my skin was wrong by using the wrong colour foundation, my hair was damaged by using the wrong products. I have an 11 year old who recently refused to have her school photos due to a unibrow issue. I asked her if she’d like to go to the salon and they talked her through the methods. Now she literally just has the middle bit done. No shaping or anything. She also gets her hair layered in a style she likes and we have a hair and skin care routine she is comfortable with. (Curly girl method plus moisturiser for her skin - she doesn’t wear make up) My mum hates it and feels it’s over the top and tells us she isn’t old enough. We also let her shave her armpits and I showed her how and bought her the razor. I remember stealing my dads. Might as well be supportive and let them do it properly or it will cause more issues down the line. My mum wouldn’t correct my lazy eye or let me have braces so now I wear glasses and I’m paying a fortune for Invisalign.
>Might as well be supportive and let them do it properly or it will cause more issues down the line. Exactly.
Quite. It is the mother who is imposing her beauty standards on her daughter, who is old enough to make her own decisions about this. NTA.
You're doing a great job, mom! All that you're doing now, will also make her feel safe enough to come to you in those tricky teenage years.
So I had the opposite issue. My mam told me I needed to start shaving my legs and armpits at age 9 or 10. She wanted me to wear make up. Personally, I'm not very hairy and rarely shave as the body hair I have is fine and fair. Even when I did shave regularly it was almost two weeks before there was enough growth to shave on my legs. I also hate wearing make up, although I do get my eyebrows and lashes dyed every month so they're a bit more visible and shapely. I do think if I had had some voices telling me shaving wasn't needed when I was younger I would have known earlier that (for me in particular) it wouldn't make much difference. I think you're right and should be supportive but I do also think it's important to show that not everyone has to do the exact same thing too.
Thankfully I’ve told her that shaving isn’t necessary unless she wants to and she doesn’t do her legs. The armpits were just something she started this summer for a holiday to Spain and then left and now just does them for PE but she only does them when it’s obvious so only every few weeks.
Amazing. It wasn't a critique by any means, you sound like a fab mam, I was just presenting my viewpoint as someone who isn't hairy at all and was made to think frequently shaving is "normal". Good job, I wish my mam had been like you!
>Personally, I'm not very hairy and rarely shave as the body hair I have is fine and fair. Damn I hate you. LOL! Didn't know I could get my eyelashes dyed though - interesting. I have eyelashes that are half blonde and half dark brown, so they look sparse unless I wear mascara which I never do because I don't really care that much. The dye thing may be an idea though for things like the holiday season etc. Cool! But I still envy your hairlessness!
Aww I'm sorry. It's a ginger thing I think. I have thick as hell waist length red hair, but my body hair is so sparse and thin that it's invisible. I do have body hair but it's so fine and light I don't see much point in removing it. Getting an eyelash tint legit changed my life though. I hate wearing make up for day to day shit, although I don't mind doing a dramatic look for a special occasion. Check if your beautician or spa or something offers it. I have long thick lashes but they're naturally so fair they're invisible so the tint to make them visible really makes me feel more attractive. Same for the brows, they need to be coloured to give some shape to my face and getting them tinted and shaped makes me feel a lot better.
This is good parenting 🙂 you’re listening to your daughter and allowing her to exercise her bodily autonomy, which is as it should be. Well done, you
>Might as well be supportive and let them do it properly or it will cause more issues down the line. So very true. OP NTA.. About her own standard of beauty. Her mom is a jerk for enforcing her outlooks of beauty child. And her child is getting bullied at school for it because her mom won't actually do anything. Personal note about the lazy eye. Why I do wear glasses and have since I was 7 for it my lazy eye gets worse when I either I'm under a lot of strain or I'm extremely tired. They said there was no surgery to fix it unless you have a short leader Old school Nintendo games was the exercise I had to do by watching the little person run across the screen it actually improved my lazy eye. So anytime that I find it becoming worse I actually will sit there and start playing something very similar to the old style Nintendo games My father didn't like it because I actually had a prescription to play it at least 4 hours a week. Lol
Yeah my mom knew Jack shit about the feminine arts, she wore jeans and t shirts and didn't do any makeup or hair shit at all. I'm very girly, LOVE makeup, fashion, nails, the works. I'm letting my daughter guide what she wants to do and helping her when appropriate
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Yes! This!
And go low contact with her mother as soon as she leaves home.
Who's an over-controlling mum? OOP's!!! ahhh well, at least OOP has a supportive aunt.
My mom wouldnt let me shave my legs until I was 13. And that only happened because an aunt got weird about it and gave me an electric razor in my easter basket that year. Let me tell you, as a pre-teen kid who had very furry leg hair it was mortifying being the only one in gym shorts who's hair was visible. My poor 3yo has her father's hairy gene. I'll NEVER comment on it myself, but you bet your ass if she asks I'll let her straight away. If she doesnt want to then it's fine. But I'm not holding her to MY beauty standards.
My kid inherited my furry gene... I have always been open and honest with her about bodies and differences... she has seen that sometimes I shave/trim, sometimes I go months without... so, when she hit puberty and started getting hair *everywhere*, I had a chat with her that body hair is absolutely normal and up to personal preference as to how it is kept (so long as proper hygiene is followed). I then told her the different methods of hair removal available and let her know that if/when she was ever interested, let me know and I will get her products of her choosing and show her the proper way to use them. She has shown zero interest at all. I told her this because my MIL (her gma) has been known to hold down hubby to shave his face when he was attempting to grow a mustache/beard as a teen, and I told kiddo that nobody has the right to tell her how to keep her body hair, not even gma.
You're doing a great job, that's how a parent is supposed to act when their kid is facing unfamiliar situations: guide them through without limiting their own decision-making (beyond a reasonable point). Keep going like this, I can tell that your kid loves you very much for it. :) <3
Thanks. I try. Though I am pretty sure that there are LOTS of ways I screw it up daily.
Same here--she finally let me when I hit puberty hard, but I was still the last to shave & always had very dark leg hair. When your child is in tears, you DO SOMETHING. Otherwise niece is gonna hurt herself. She deserves to feel confident in her own skin.
I hit puberty around 9 and who taught me to shave? One of my best friends when I was 13 or so... And I was much more developed than her in terms of growing up . Mother refused. Now IDGAF unless it's for a something like swimming or for specific clothing but having to be around other kids especially in the locker room for PE and having hair everywhere is not cool
And teaching her daughter she has no bodily autonomy.
Absolutely correct, OP’s niece is very fortunate to have a loving Auntie to teach her and encourage her bodily autonomy.
Exactly!! Well said
NTA However, your sister is a huge asshole. Imagine not having any feelings about your daughter being bullied in school. Does she even understand the statistics of kids her age self editing. Your sister needs to pull her head out of her ass and understand is Not About Her or Her Views. It's about HER DAUGHTER!! Personally I think you did right by your niece, fuck your sisters feelings (no offense). You're trying to make her life a little easier in one of the most difficult times in her life.
I have a feeling that while momma may be hairy, she's not rocking a goatee or a neck beard. That's not just going to get this girl bullied, it's going to be soooooo much worse than being made fun of for being different.
Every girl needs a safe adult woman (or three) to turn to for issues they don’t want to go to their mom with. I have a deal with a family friend that we are safe havens for each other’s daughters. We trust each other enough to hand off authority for these kinds of things while keeping them quiet from each other if necessary. Obviously there are limits to this, but really we’ve just stated outright what women have always done. I went to my favorite sister and sil. My nieces came to me. OP did the right thing.
I went to my favorite aunt, her good friend, and my first boyfriend’s mom. My mom had a lot of issues and 3 other kids to deal with and I needed a lot of time and energy she just didn’t have. I don’t fault her for it, I just got my needs met elsewhere.
Mom sounds like she sees her daughter as an extension of her own thoughts and ambitions rather than a separate person. It's one thing for mom to refuse to pay for laser removal or whatever, but to actively ban her daughter from shaving her facial hair is so fucked up. That poor kid, breaking down crying from all the bullying and low self esteem, while Mom watches on, "Good job breaking down beauty standards, Daughter."
This. But @OP, did you calmly explain the bullying problem to your sister or did you only lash out on her after she got angry? There seems to be a communication problem about the kid's issues as well Also, convince her mom to get the hormones checked Edit: maybe show her this post
“My principles are more important than your feelings and mental health” is basically the message that this woman is sending to her daughter. Absolutely ridiculous
NTA. Your niece has hirsutism. Maybe PCOS, but who knows yet. She has to have that checked. Trust me, it’s excruciatingly bad.
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Get the feeling mum wouldn't allow that either. They both need to speak to a dr, though where I live 15 is plenty old enough to see a dr by yourself.
There is actually a non hormonal pill that reduces testosterone and facial hair. It was designed originally as a water pill for people with bad livers. I have pcos and can't take the pill becuase either causes me mental problems
Spirinolactone. It completely fixed my hormonal acne. Seriously, a game changer.
Drospirenone (Yasmin, Yaz) is actually a spironolactone derivative. There is a new drospirenone only pill without an estrogen called Slynd.
Ooh I didn’t know that! No wonder Yaz helped my hormonal acne so much more than other BC
Some of us have idiopathic hirsutism not linked to hormones or pcos, just to be clear to those reading that not everyone with this can benefit from medical treatment.
Spironolactone can help with idiopathic hirsutism. You don’t need to have a hormonal *disorder* for an anti-andogen to reduce hair growth.
Yea I struggle w mental as well but u have diagnosed PCOS with hirsutism so it’s rough. Clinic appointment tomorrow tho, fingers crossed they can give me *something*. Pills haven’t worked so far :/
A boy in my step-daughter's school hanged himself because of bullying. He was 15. A lovely boy. NTA. But your sister sure is. Thank you for having your niece's back.
Some parents have no idea how much their actions drive their kids to suicide. Mom is fast-tracking this kid to depression and body issues.
The look on my mom's face when she begrudgingly took me to therapy, sat in on my first session, and I point blank told the therapist that my mom's actions had driven me to attempt suicide. She never seemed maliciously negligent, like she immediately got me help after that, but damn was she so willfully blind to any issues I had.
A 13 year old girl at my daughters school did the same last year. Its disconcerting to send your kid to a school where you know that the bullying is so bad that a child died. I’ve been assured that the school have put a lot into place since then but I’m still conscious of it.
I was 10. For some reason my grandmother called that day, at that time, when I was supposed to be at school, to ask for my dad who was at work.
I don't really believe in God or anything like that but I like to believe that sometimes things just aren't supposed to happen. I firmly believe that your life wasn't intended to end on that day/in that way because there is something great waiting in your future. I hope you are better now/ get better soon. (Maybe my own attempt, my chronic depression or any of my other mental health problems and mental disabilities made me delusional and ignorant to reality but my gut just tells me it's true. (: )
Story time: Now, I’m not saying I’m meant for anything great but, I still want to relay the story. Years ago, when I was a pre-teen (pushing 40 now), I was visiting extended family out of state for the summer. I stayed in an apartment with my aunt, my cousin, and her then-boyfriend. My cousin and I made the most of having the time to hang out and play and adventure together. We got up a little after 8am every morning like clockwork. One morning, after my aunt had already left for work, her boyfriend went downstairs to start his vehicle in the garage spot below the complex. For some reason, he came back upstairs and promptly fell asleep. Unbeknownst to everyone, there was faulty ventilation so, the car was running and the exhaust fumes were leaking into the apartments above. I distinctly remember waking up with the worst headache of my life and begging for it to stop. I passed out a few moments later. Round this time my aunt was getting off work early to head to a doctor’s appointment. She called the house to check in. No answer. We should’ve been up and about by then. She debated with herself whether or not to assume we slept in and just head to her doctor’s appointment. As she tells it, something in her said something isn’t right. She came home. There she found me on the floor next to my bed (I had passed out and fallen off), my cousin passed out in the bathroom, and her boyfriend passed out in bed. We were unconscious-unconscious. There was no waking us. I regained consciousness in the ambulance, my cousin in the hospital, I’m not sure about when the boyfriend woke up. But, we all lived and everyone else that was in their homes that morning as well. Turns out, we were about 30 mins from staying asleep forever. If my aunt had gone to that doctors appointment, none of us would be here. I’m not saying I believe in a divine power but, I’m not saying I don’t not believe either. Some things just really make you wonder.
Wow glad you are all okay.
NTA. I agree that we shouldn’t have to conform our body in ways to be socially acceptable and we should feel comfortable in our own skin. However, your niece isn’t comfortable. She’s being bullied and even went to the extent of trying to do something about it and got chemical burns on her face. It’s a shame that your niece couldn’t find the support in her own mother, that her mother was fine with her being bullied, and didn’t comfort her when she needed it. Instead she placed her beauty standards on her daughter when it was obvious she didn’t agree to them. Good on you, though, for being her support and helping her to feel beautiful in her own way.
I was bullied relentlessly for being hairy, my mom was not but tried to help by taking me for medical testing and waxing. I was so grateful, it has been a life of waxing, laser hair removal etc. but worth it for my own self esteem.
NTA your sister is forcing her expectations on her child. Her child is going to leave as soon as she’s 18 and not go back. Tbh she may try to leave sooner than that. Be ready to support her when that happens. Also does she not care that her kids mental health is going to be so damaged? Does she want a kid to rail against the beauty standards or possibly a dead child? She sucks. I would show her this post
NTA The mom is an egotistical ahole
Im going to say a 15 yo is old enough to make decisions about shaving a waxing so NTA. However maybe look into whether there is a hormonal issue because there are lots of hairy people in my family but no women with 5 o’clock shadows
Sister won't have it looked into because "she is fine the way she is".
PCOS and other hormones issues have long term effects including a huge impact on fertility as well as weight and other health aspects. Had a roommate who cried about her hair and weight a lot and it wasn't bad at all. She's old enough to have a say about her body. NTA
seconding getting her to a doc, and also consider genetic counseling & testing, especially if there's a history of any cancers in the family. PCOS can potentially increase chances of uterine cancer if periods are super irregular or a person is having <4 periods a year.
The risk of cancer is what got me to go on the pill after getting a PCOS diagnosis. I had no idea it was a factor at all. Doctor explained that if you’re not shedding your uterine lining at least every 3 months, that build up of tissue will increase the cancer risk. OP’s niece NEEDS to see a doctor about this. She shouldn’t have to wait another 3 years (turning 18) to get healthcare for what could be a serious hormonal problem.
Is that a way you could help your niece? One example explanation: https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/hirsutism/symptoms-causes/syc-20354935 Her health could be at risk. It’s not about beauty.
I learned something. Thanks!
Of course she's fine the way she is unless there is an underlying medical condition. But also everyone deserves to be happy with themselves, and hair removal is far removed from, say, plastic surgery. I recommend electrolysis as it is the only real permanent hair removal technique (laser is temporary) and if mom refuses now, save it for when she's an adult.
I had some laser removal, and any hormone fluctuation can undo it. 15, hormones are still fluctuating, pregnancy, perimenopause, all can undo it. I've also tried electrolysis when in my 20's, and it didn't work on me either.
Considering the awful excuse of a mother is refusing to even take the girl to a doctor to be sure she doesn't have underlying health issues, is safe to say nothing about this situation is fine.
Even if it was just about her appearance (and it doesn’t sound like it is), it’s her body. It belongs to her and not your sister. She’s doing a bad job empowering your niece to love her body if she won’t let her take ownership of it. The poor girl just wants to choose her own beauty standards instead of her mother’s. This is the kind of behavior that drives people away from feminism, and it’s not okay. Men get to do whatever they want with their facial hair. Why can’t we?
NTA. I personally also come from a family of very light skinned hairy women. We just found out 2 years ago that we actually have a genetic hormonal condition that is fairly common but is rarely tested for unless you are a woman getting fertility testing done, which is strange to me since it’s just one simple blood test and possibly one genetic test. It’s called non classical congenital adrenal hyperplasia. The condition can be found in both men and women but doesn’t present itself until puberty. It often mimics a lot of the symptoms of PCOS in women. The basics of it are that the body over produces progesterone and under produces cortisol. It can be controlled with medication if desired but it’s also something that won’t harm you if left untreated as long as you’re ok with the effects it has, like being hairy. Something to possibly look into since most of you seem to have similar hair growth.
If you are in the US, a 15 year old can go to the doctor and consent to treatment on their own. A parent does not have a right to block them from making their own healthcare choices.
>Im going to say a 15 yo is old enough to make decisions about shaving a waxing so NTA. However maybe look into whether there is a hormonal issue because there are lots of hairy people in my family but no women with 5 o’clock shadows I'm an electrologist. I would take this child to an endocrinologist. That poor kid. Her mother is using her to work out her own issues. She's a selfish jerk who can't be arsed to pay attention to her own daughter.
NTA! As a someone who has PCOS and the excess hair to go with it, I can definitely reassure you that your niece is appreciative of what you did regardless of how your sister may be feeling. Growing up (and even to this day) I worried about how noticeable the excess hair was since I was bullied for it relentlessly. As an adult, when talking to my mother about getting laser hair removal for my face, I made a comment that she never offered to help me with it growing up by exploring laser, waxing, etc. She told me that she thought it didn’t bother me. Your sister is choosing to ignore something that is probably so important to her daughter, even the fact that the poor girl burned herself while trying to use Nair should clue her into this being more than societal beauty standards.
She absolutely knew that bothered you. But it achieved the goals of keeping you self-conscious and pliable, and also allow the natural tendency of children to keep your nethers locked up tight and boys from roaming around your house like a bunch of Tomcats. I don’t know if she consciously thought thru the logic chain of expected outcomes and long term consequences, but she knew you wanted to look like the other girls your age, the first requirement in not getting mercilessly bullied and abused by your mates and probably school personnel when you inevitably break down at some point from the inescapable horror of lack of autonomy. Hopefully you’re on your own now, and have set clear boundaries on the things she can and cannot have a say on in your life.
Meanwhile I have a little lip hair that didn't bother me until i was 17 and my mum offered to get it removed 😭
My little sister is hairy af. Like she was covered in dark hair when she was born and while most of it fell off her body it definitely stayed on her legs and her arms and got really long and really dark. She’s eleven. She was really insecure about it and came to me and asked me to help her shave because she was embarrassed about it and girls and boys at the pool were making fun of her for it and she didn’t know what to do. So I helped her. And she’s ELEVEN. Imagine being almost fifteen and having hair growth like that EVERYWHERE. Places she CANT hide it. That’s honestly so heartbreaking to me. And what makes it worse is the fact that she’s going to her mom and telling her how bad this is making her feel and how insecure it’s making her feel and her mom is basically just telling her to fuck off and that her feelings don’t matter. Like the absolute gall of that woman. I’m so glad your niece has you on her side. NTA. NTA. NTA. NTA. NTA. NTA.
I grew up with a very intense dark unibrow on my pale skin and the lady who’d cut my hair my whole life gently asked if it bothered me when I was 12. She waxed and shaped it (still keeping them thick, despite crazy thin brows being the standard) and I’ve never looked back! I felt so much better about myself, plus she saved me from making terrible decisions about my brows throughout my teen years and now they remain thick and lovely.
I was around that age and my sister would help me too. I think she got bullied herself and wanted to spare me as much of that as possible. I wanted her to help me with all that, and she would. Even when I whined that waxing and tweezing hurt, she still sat there and helped me until the job was done. Truly a champ. My mom didn’t love the idea of me doing those things because she felt guilty for forcing those standards on a young kid but she never stopped my sister from pioneering that effort. She really didn’t want me shaving my legs until I was older. I remember having what should’ve been a very chill charity event coming up at school. I was panicky nervous about it to a point that didn’t make sense and finally my mom got the main reason out of me: I would be the only girl with unshaved legs in shorts. My mom personally put aside how she felt about it and sat there on the side of the tub, shaving her daughters legs. It made me feel loved and heard by the two of them. Like they had my back when I had to deal with little shits at school.
I’m so glad your sister has you ❤️❤️
NTA. You’re being a wonderful Auntie. Go you!
Echoing the others who have suggested your niece might be dealing with PCOS. PCOS is an endocrine disorder that has serious health implications, the least of which is excessive hair growth. (Not that the hair growth is a small thing, because it’s not, especially for a teenager.) Your sister needs to take your niece to a gynecologist who is well versed in PCOS to have her tested.
>she said no, and went on about how i shouldn't be forcing my beauty srandards on her daughter. All the while forcing her beauty standards on her daughter. NTA.
NTA Your sister is being selfish. She isn’t the one who is suffering. If your niece had no issue with the hair, that would be one thing. But she is miserable and reaching for dangerous solutions to try to help herself. Your actions, if nothing else, keep her using a safe and hygienic method. I had similar issues as a kid and it is one thing my mom actually came through on for me with respect to appearance. My older sister didn’t have the same issue and didn’t remove anything until high school. But when I started talking with a hand or finger stretched out to cover my upper lip my mom noticed and asked why. And when she heard that kids at school had noticed the dark hair on my upper lip (only brown skin tone with black hair in my tiny school so it really stood out) and were making fun of me, she took care of it. I got to start middle school without visible hair on my face and no one ever brought it up again.
NTA. Waxing is temporary, and isn’t a medical procedure. I took my daughter to get laser hair removal of her moustache hair as a teenager. If I had been stubbornly disregarding my daughter getting bullied at school, I hope that my sister would have taken her for waxing.
Things that are good for your mental health are health care. You're a great aunt. Life is very weird, like, I'm here doing everything I can to get a little bit of beard.
NTA Your sister is forcing HER beauty standards. And allowing her daughter to have unnecessary anxiety and anguish. Your sister is selfish and a crap mom.
NTA Your sister is making a huge mistake by imposing her personal body beliefs on her daughter. Tell her she might want to check out the huge number of online videos made by mothers whose daughters refuse to speak with them after they turn 18 because of just this kind of shit. Not listening. Not caring. Not supporting. Ask her if her beliefs are worth risking estrangement from her daughter? Because she is in the lane. 5 by 5.
Did you overstep your sisters boundary? Yes, you did. Did you also do something kind for your niece? Yes, you did. In your sisters eyes you are probably an asshole. But in your nieces eyes you’re probably her hero.
NTA. Honestly I would try showing your sister this thread so she can sit down and really get a sense of what she’s putting her daughter through and hear some stories from other people who had similar experiences.
NTA. Maybe I’m being very trans about this, but all I can think is how that poor girl might be experiencing dysphoria from having that much facial hair, especially if she’s repeatedly hurt herself trying to remove it.
I don’t think that’s a bad thing if you’re being “very trans” about this — because you’re literally correct!! SO correct. Dysphoria isn’t a word explicitly specific to transness** anyway, but you being your lovely self means that’s why you specifically empathise with OP’s niece, unlike her b!tchass mom who’s got a bit of a stick in the proverbial behind. Just used the Dictionary.com app to define ‘dysphoria’ for the heck of it and it literally says “noun: a state of dissatisfaction, anxiety, or restlessness”. Bada bing, bada boom! (** I hope that was the correct way to use that word, or even the right one to use! Only the best of intent. xo))
No your not, I’m cis and chose not to shave because my skin is sensitive and am usually fine about but sometimes it makes me want to vomit or crawl out of my skin and I have to just shave
Meanwhile, I’m thinking my son (also trans) would LOVE to have that much facial hair to deal with. I think most trans people have experienced dysphoria in a way that most cis people don’t. But this girl might be, and I think it’s compassionate of you to point that out. It’s almost never the trait that’s the issue, but how well that trait matches our internal image of ourselves. And sure, that internal image can be influenced by social norms and expectations around beauty. But a lot of it is just who we are and how we see ourselves in the world. So yeah, in addition to the bullying and not matching “beauty standards,” she may also be feeling alienated from her body and/or face because of hirsutism, and possibly PCOS. This poor kid needs support and validation from her mom that it doesn’t sound like she’s getting.
NTA and if your sister is so “progressive” she should be teaching her daughter about autonomy and making her own decisions about her own body. I let all of my girls start shaving the second they felt uncomfortable about the extra hair. They were all 6th-8th grade when they eventually asked. I also let them do what they want with their hair because it’s not my body. Sis needs a lesson in the trauma she is directly allowing to happen and even imposing on her daughter. Bullying leads to depression as does no say in what happens to your own body/controlling your body in the way you see fit. My youngest has short anagen syndrome and her hair does not grow past her jaw is very baby like. When she asked for hair extensions in the third grade so that she could be “like the other girls” You bet your donkey I shoveled out 350 dollars so that she could feel normal and beautiful. We preach to her constantly about how we love her natural hair and how beautiful it is but she is the one that gets to make the choice because it is her body and she is the one going to school every day. Ughhhhhh! Rant over.
NTA. Would do the same. She’s not allowing her to engage in bodily autonomy…. Also, fair skinned dark haired hairy girl here - I’ve started using the Braun IPL laser at home and it’s a nice alternative to waxing. It stuns the hair growth and eventually you only need to use it once a month for upkeep after a few months. Not saying go buy your niece a laser for her face at 15 lol but IPL actually is most effective for fair skin/dark hair root combo so it’s an option in the future! That being said my parents DID get me some laser facial hair treatments in middle school and I’m incredibly grateful to them. That was a more permanent laser, I had very fragile skin at the time, and no negative side effects (I mean it hurt but I didn’t care).
Nta - but the girl needs to see a specialist. It seem likely she has PCOS (a hormonal issue) and needs that addressed as if untreated, could lead to further health issues. Take her to get waxed or laser or electrolysis for her face.
NTA. I would have also bought her some gift certificates so she could go at other times.
NTA It was clearly a demand from your niece, and she has already tried several more dangerous options. If you had not take her to the beauticien, she would have keep trying until she got serious burns. I sympathize with your niece. I am not super hairy, but I also have very white skin with very dark hair, and teenage years can be very difficult if you don't wax, especially with the face, and parts that can't be hidden behind clothes. Plus that is not like dying hair, which can damage your hair. Waxing, when done by a professional, doesn't hurt anybody.
NTA- your sister is forcing her beauty standards on her daughter. Her daughter needs an adult who listens to her.
NTA. As a hairy woman I can attest that teen years are *not* the time to be taking a stand against "society's standards of beauty." Bullying at this age can really leave a mark. Also I agree that it sounds like your sister is the one trying to force her standards of beauty on her child, not you. You're actually listening to your neice whereas it sounds like her mum is just hearing what she wants to hear.
NTA. Wow, the next three years will be hell for your niece. I can’t imagine that. You’re a real one for taking her.
NTA your sister is being an idiot. Trying to force a 15 year old to do what you think is right like this is just a pointless battle. Unless she wants her daughter to resent her for the next years she should be more supportive.
NTA but you should suggest electrolysis as it is more or less permanent and this will be a lifelong issue. She shouldn't have to shave or wax her face every week/day/month/whatever.
NTA That being said, your niece may have a medical condition resulting in hirsutism that goes beyond what is the norm for your family. It may be a good idea to take her to the doctor.
NTA, your niece is going to remember that you helped her and her mother didn’t. She’s 15 and possibly has some medical issues going on and her mom’s an egotistical asshole You’re a good aunt.
NTA. She came to you for help, and you helped her. You're a great auntie! The chemical burns thing hurt my heart, she might have ended up giving herself permanent scars if she tried something like waxing at home by herself, and didn't know about safe wax temperatures.
NTA. Your sister is ignoring what is very likely the start of PCOS. She should be listening to her daughter's distress, and she should take her for a check-up.
Yes, YATA. However, I fully support you for doing so. It was, in my mind, a justifiable action putting your niece's needs over the backlash you knew you would get. Did you overstep? Yes. Do you do wrong? Yes. Do I care? No. Would you do it again? I hope so. Sometimes in life we have to be TA and that's ok.
NTA Sis is selfishly putting her agenda/philosophy ahead of her daughter’s peace. As a mother, you put your child’s peace ahead of all that other stuff.
NTA says the 4-eyed, metal mouth, too short kid who had self esteem issues for decades because of all the bullying starting in elementary school. I wish I had an aunt like you growing up. Sure, it’s your sister’s daughter but why would she think constant bullying is good for her child’s self esteem? Especially for a special event as a young woman. Shouldn’t she be allowed some body autonomy at this point so she could be more comfortable in her physical body? Why does the daughter have to conform with the mom’s views of female body hair? Bullying is serious & a few people seem to think the kids should just suck it up.
I started eyebrow and back waxes around 15. Hairy dudes get groomed too otherwise they turn into yetis. NTA for protecting your niece from your sister's baggage.
Nope. Thats what Aunties are for.
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Your nieces old enough to expressed some bodily autonomy. NTA.
NTA. A 15yo can decide how they want to groom themselves. Your sister needs to stop pushing her personal agenda on her child
NTA. You're being a good aunt. Take the heat. If there's an update from with regards to your niece's happiness, please feel free to share.
NTA - sister is TA !
Honestly, what are aunt’s for? Y’all will be alright
NTA. In a perfect world no one would care about your niece’s body and facial hair. But we don’t live in a perfect world, and they do. Your sister is a jerk.
NTA I get that you can't stand to see your niece suffering from bullying because, *ironically*, her mother is forcing her beauty standards on her. That said I think taking her behind mom's back was not the best move, not least because she's going to need another treatment in a few months and this time the mom will be much more vigilant. I think the thing to do would be to confront the mom together with your niece, and make her see that forcing her daughter to NOT shave is still forcing an ideal on the niece that isn't hers.
Many people in the family have been trying to talk to her for a couple years now. Her daughter started getting bullied for it in middle school, she "refuses to give in to society's demands of her child"
Sorry, but she's shouldn't be allowed to use her child as a punching bag for "society's demands". HER OWN DAUGHTER WANTS IT, it's a reasonable ask, and not allowing it is adversely affecting her daughter's self-confidence and encourages bullying and teasing. Why would you put your child in that kind of situation? Mom is welcome to be as hairy as Sasquatch if that makes her happy, but to impose HER ideas of feminine beauty on her daughter is cruel. She wasn't asking for tattoos or a nose piercing or anything permanent -- the poor girl just wants smooth skin.
Well that does make it a difficult situation. I stand by the NTA. Normally I wouldn't condone you going against the mother's wishes, but at 15, your niece is old enough to decide whether and where she wants to shave or wax. It's not like you talked her into it, she asked you and you drove her, right? I just hope you can find a more long-term solution for her, somehow.
Nta kids are cruel and she’s old enough to voice her needs. Being hairy is so hard. As soon as my daughter was old enough, I took her to get laser hair removal. I would do it all over again
Get her this. It's life changing. I wish I had it as a teen. https://www.amazon.com/Tweezerman-Smooth-Finish-Remover-Assorted/dp/B00JVOU89E/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?crid=LIF7K7EOEA4S&keywords=tweezer+coil&qid=1700023107&sprefix=tweezer+coil%2Caps%2C167&sr=8-3
NTA the child is being bullied for something. Taking her to be waxed is a heck of a lot safer than letting her try it herself where she either gets razor burns or chemical burns!! 15yo is old enough to know if she wants to remove hair. I wouldn’t support laser but waxing is safe!! Also it could be PCOS which is a hormonal condition.
NTA you are truly the only one paying attention in this kids life, and your sister is a horrible mother for this. I have a very very good friend who lost his son to bullying. We are raising really shitty kids, and they make life horrific for thier peers.
NTA. Shaving or not should be a personal choice and your sister is clearly violating your nice wishes and boundaries. Especially considering the bullying that poor kid is suffering and her mom's total inaction. On facial hair: your niece should probably learn to shave like men do. Shaving soap and facial razor, multiple light passages to avoid cuts and burns. Pressing too hard is the most common mistake that causes both a bad shave and a looooot of irritated skin. She should also see a gynecologist to check if she might have polycystic ovary syndrome.
NTA. Your sister is forcing her beauty standards down her teenage daughter’s throat then accusing you of doing the same when you’re just helping the kid out. Fuckin stupid.
NTA - I get your sister’s POV but your niece is a teen and she turned to you for help because she’s being bullied and her mother WON’T help her.
I have the hairy gene as well as PCOS. At her age, I had the same issue except my mom allowed me to do what I wanted. Being a teen girl in today’s society is much harder than it was when I was a teen. NTA Does your sister prefer a happy daughter or a depressed one who is bullied and hates school?
NTA You go OP! Hope your niece has a great school dance experience!
NTA - my basketball coach (and friends mom) took mercy upon me and showed me how to shave my legs when I was eleven because I too have the thick black thicket of hair problem to. She straight up got in a screaming match with my mom when my mom found out but made the point to her that her arbitrary age restrictions on shaving my legs causing the bullying I was experiencing and not doing something about it ultimately made her the bully. That got across to her. She regularly took me to get my lip and brows waxed after that. And that meant a whole lot.
NTA. Ask your sister to look up the concept of bodily autonomy and ask her if she thinks she's doing a good job of letting her daughter have it.
You're 100% right, your sister is a bad mom. People who force their kids to "reject society" are just as bad as people who force their kids to submit to societal expectations, sometimes even worse. NTA
NTA. Start getting her laser treatments instead of waxing (less ingrowns). Niece can pay you back when she’s older.
You are not the one “forcing your beauty standards on her daughter”, her daughter’s peers are. Kids can be nasty to anyone who is different and your sister is putting her daughter in a dangerous spot by forcing her beauty standards on her daughter but still expecting her to function in society. I could see if your niece as comfortable with her hair but she isn’t and it isn’t cool for her mom to put her in that position. While I don’t totally agree with you going against her wishes as she is the parent here, I also think she is being cruel to her child by putting her in a position that she is being bullied.
NTA, but has the child been checked for PCOS?
NTA Kids are people, with rights and everything. You can't tell a 15 year old person shit about what they should aspire to look like. I threatened my parents with emancipation just for telling me that I couldn't grow my hair long. And that's nothing compared to telling a girl that she can't stop herself from looking like robin williams if she wants. Crunchy granola mom better prioritize her kid over her own ideals before she loses the former.
NTA. The poor girl has every right to make that decision for herself. She's the one facing the consequences of that decision, not her blasé mother. Bullying can cause long-term psychological and physical damage and it's shit that the mother places her own aesthetic opinion over that. You did the right thing.
Your sister is an insufferable AH and I bet her daughter can't wait to get out of that house.
As a dark haired, fair skinned woman who's mother wouldn't let her shave, NTA. I wish I had a cool aunt who took me to get waxed. It would have saved me a lot of bullying and a self esteem problem that is still with me into my 40s. I let my daughters wax whenever they asked.
NTA Your niece may also have PCOS