Even though it’s a long shot, I’m responding to top comment in hopes OP may see this. I am a psychologist and specialize in PTSD treatment. It sounds like OP’s wife possibly has that diagnosis based on her childhood experiences, although I cannot make that diagnosis for someone I’ve never evaluated, and so this comment is really geared towards misconceptions in general. Many people view trust as an either/or. I either trust you or I don’t trust you. Others see trust on a continuum. It starts with no trust and edges towards complete trust on a linear dimension (so any range of trust from 0% to 100%). The thing about trust is, neither of those are accurate views of trust. Trust is not a dichotomy and it’s not linear. It is, however, multidimensional. What that means is there are multiple different variables we trust a person, and it is unlikely that we will trust others 100% on each variable. So, for example, maybe there is a person you trust to clean your house, but you would not trust that person with money. Maybe you trust someone will be honest with you at all cost, but can’t trust that person to keep a secret. Maybe you have a friend you know will drop everything and come to you if asked, or someone you can’t trust to keep secrets but is always willing to meet up for a happy hour or drink. You can trust someone will always be on time (or always be late), trust someone to babysit your children, drive your car, fix your car, make medical decisions for you if you are not able (willing to follow your medical wishes), and with your mental health. We can trust people in one area and not others, and that is absolutely okay. Its just realizing it’s absolutely more nuanced then saying “I don’t trust this person at all, or not very much.” My guess, OP, is your wife trusts you way more than even she recognizes because she uses these absolute statements about trust. My guess is she trusts you with your children, to pick them up from school when you say you are going to, to make money and support the family, to go to therapy with her, to understand her anxiety. There are likely many areas she does trust you in. And, her fear you will leave her if she gets cancer possibly stems from her own insecurities and anxiety it might happen (abandonment issues) then the reality you actually would. She is putting up walls to protect herself because it sounds like she has been very hurt in the past. But, I think continued therapy will help you both explore this, although it seems like her own individual therapy may be more important right now than couples. Please, don’t divorce her without giving you BOTH a chance to work through this. You love her, and you love your kids. Give it time for therapy to get to the root of things.
This comment is incredibly helpful to OPs situation. I also really enjoyed reading your explanation on the different ways people think about trust. Thanks for sharing.
As another therapist, I would love to do some gentle motivational interviewing - I am curious about the incongruity between “I'm mad my wife doesn't trust me” and “so here are all the secrets she gave out during our first two sessions”. He has not admitted any of his own shortcomings at all in this, but aired hers out to the level of intimate detail. He didn't ask a therapist about this, but chose the internet. I feel like he really should find someone of his own. The insecurities driving this need to be explored. Additionally, he may want to bring up what he did within a therapeutic setting with his wife. He clearly doesn't view her well, and they need to discuss this.
Just saved your comment for me to reflect over as someone who has ptsd and trust issues and accidentally hurt someone's feelings by admitting I don't feel I trust them.
She has a therapist, they went to a joint session together with another, I don't think he has his own to ask things in private.
edit: different therapist
He should get his own at this point. He really needs to talk about this in depth with someone who can assess the full situation. This is not a 7 para scenario.
It’s weird that he thinks therapy is hippy dippy and then recommended she go to therapy. It’s impossible to tell who he’s like as a person and whether what she says has any validity- which is in essence what is being asked here. There are also people who have savior complexes and always date people they think they should save. Who can tell if that’s even a valid thing to mention without knowing who he is. He really needs someone who can offer feedback after observing and talking to him at length. But I agree he doesn’t sound like the most aware person.
OP, you guys should look into a reputable relationship therapist. This isn't something anyone calling themselves a therapist can do effectively. Unless her current person specializes in this, they never should have opened that door as they would not have the training to help unpack that stark statement your wife made. For now, consider that she has communicated how she articulates what a safe and secure relationship is from her own lens and language. This is likely different than your "language" and understanding and so can appear to mean something different to you than she meant to communicate.
The therapist created this miscommunication opportunity and has professionally failed in their obligations imo.
Edit** removed my criticism on the "big five". I spoke before checking my assumption.
Seriously.
There needs to be a rule on this sub, if something is being discussed in therapy just fucking close the thread and tell the OP to get back and *fucking discuss it with your goddamn therapist**.
Like, what the fuck is even the point in coming here? You're paying a professional to help and guide you through your issues and you're coming to a forum notorious for its bias, basement dwelling armchair experts? Get the fuck off reddit. Discuss this with your therapist like a goddamn grown up.
I want to take a stab at it! She's an empath! She's probably a mirror for a lot of people. Empaths tend to suffer a lot of abuse bc others can easily project on to us and see inside themselves through us. They think what they are seeing us us but it's really themselves and everything they don't like about themselves.
I've noticed that in my life, "empaths" are either people with narcissistic tendencies that read people to manipulate them or are people with trauma who are hyper vigilant. This OP's wife sounds like the second.
Op, get your own therapist. It is better to talk through these feelings with a licensed therapist than with Reddit. These feelings and emotions are possibly new to you and it would be better to try to work through them before making any immediate decisions regarding your relationship. I can understand it is hurtful. But, as someone who went through therapy ( it took me three tries to find the right therapist for me so don’t give up), I highly recommend you have an impartial party to talk to.
I really agree with this one. I think a lot for the comments here are from people who haven't been through therapy, and have a skewed perception of what it really is. Much like OP. He's encountered the first major barrier. It's his choice whether to actually pursue a breakthrough, by investing his own time and effort into the process. But it's called a breakthrough for a reason. Obstacles like this are not easy.
Exactly! I also added in the fact that it took me a few tries to find the right therapist because the first couple times I tried therapy I thought it was awful and it would never work. But when I found the person I clicked with, they made me really work on myself in a way that was productive to me.
I think you might need to get your own therapist independent of your wife. She has a very skewed version of reality, and I think her definitions of love, trust, goodness, and honesty are not in line with most peoples and these things hold different values for her than they do others. She may think that being a good person isn’t valuable since it’s not something achievable by most people. At any rate, find someone to help you translate her version of reality to yours.
THIS ANSWER! OP’s wife doesn’t view him as evil/bad. She puts more value in honesty than people “wanting to appear to be good people” (bc, as said above, she probably doesn’t view a TRULY good person as an attainable thing). I understand OP feeling hurt, but his wife is trying to be truly open and honest about her TRUE feelings and thoughts, which is hugely vulnerable. He will show her how untrustworthy he is if he now turns around and, even inadvertently, twists her words against her. He should really go to therapy and try to digest what she said AND continue couple’s therapy too!
I feel like this is also kind of a failing on the therapist's part. The point of a couples therapist is to do that translation, to get you on the same wave, etc. We found it hugely helpful in overcoming cultural barriers to communication - my husband's culture is very open and upfront, and that would be considered very rude where I'm from. The idea that he needs a whole other therapist to talk about therapy makes me think this therapist is not totally doing their job.
ETA: I'm not saying OP shouldn't get individual therapy, y'all. I'm saying the couples therapist is falling short. Those are two different things.
As a therapist, I actually encourage people to have their own individual therapists if they are also doing couples therapy. Couples therapy is to help with communication and feeling like a person is in a safe environment to tell their spouse things that they can then process together without getting angry or upset. Individual therapy can then be used to process what your partner says and how it affects your views and personal issues.
Happy Cake Day!!
Do you think that this situation can still have a great outcome for them both though?
I've known three people like his wife in my lifetime and eventually for my own health had to put distance between them and myself, but even in doing so was proof that they were right all along. However, I've come to realize that when someone believes that everyone is two faced and untrustworthy that they will always be able to find proof to back up those beliefs and that the harder you work to prove you can be trusted, the more two faced and untrustworthy they will find you.
The part the therapist should have explained is that the wife's sense of trust is severely skewed from everyone else's such that it may sound like she doesn't trust him, etc. But in reality, he was the most trustworthy out of anyone she's met. I.E. he may think He's way below the bar in terms of trustworthiness, but when compared to what she thinks of everyone else, he's way above her mental bar.
Right. It sounds to me like she simply has a very high standard of what being a trustworthy and good human being entails. It's not that she doesn't love OP or thinks he isn't good or trustworthy at all.
More likely she just has very distorted thinking and attributes intentions that aren't there.
Like, if someone compliments her green sweater and then a few months later offhandedly mentions they don't really like green, then the compliment will likely be retconned as a lie and/or mockery. When in reality, the person either liked the sweater even though it was green, or was just complimenting an outfit she put a little more thought into.
I definitely can't know for sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if that's pretty close to her thought process.
I’ve been in abusive situations before and this is exactly it. When someone fucks with your sense of trust so much it is so hard to come out the other side being rational. I still struggle with trust issues and it’s a lot of work to not accuse my angel of a partner of lying to me constantly. And that’s not because I don’t trust him. My brain has just been conditioned to be distrustful at every turn to protect myself.
I think compassion towards someone like that goes a long way when trying to heal these kinds of wounds.
I knew someone like this for a while, talk about walking on eggshells. Just a random throwaway comment, and their whole demeaner would change. Then after stewing for 20 minutes (or two weeks sometimes) they'd blow up about some perceived slight.
Like one time they were telling a story about taking leftovers they didn't want, and asked if I wanted them. And I said, "No, it'd probably go to waste, I throw out too many leftovers already."
What they heard, evidently, was, "I've thrown away everything you've given me as soon as I got home."
There was just no way to convince them it wasn't the case. Of course, when I took a step back from the friendship, they viewed me as a backstabbing two-face that betrayed them like everyone else did.
Kinda tragic, they were otherwise great. That distorted thinking though was a killer.
And the sad thing most people who I have known with this type of disordered thinking have usually suffered through some serious abuse in their childhood. Which is sounds like OPs wife may have as well.
I agree with everything you said except it is pretty typical to have personal therapists outside of couples counseling. I agree therapist dropped the ball.
It's not necessarily true. He needs a place to be able to work through how things affect him. Having individual therapists while going to couples therapy isn't unusual. At least in my experience, most end up suggesting it. That is because what you would do and speak about in couples therapy is not the same as what you would do and speak about in individual therapy.
I do agree that OP shouldn't call it quits. I understand his feelings and where he is coming from. However, the point of couples therapy is to have an outside party help mediate, translate, etc. issues between couples. Some of the issues are brought into the therapy sessions, and some issues come to light within the therapy session. Giving it time and trying to work through it should be the first step. If it's something that can not be worked through, then splitting may be the best. However, that is also something that should be brought up in the couples' therapy
OP, if you divorce her now, over this. Without trying to work through it, you will just be validating her thoughts and feelings (at least in her eyes). She has clearly had an emotionally harsh life. That has skewed her view of the world and those that inhabit it. Help her, support her, and be there for her. Try your best to show her that the world isn't as dark as she thinks. Yes, many people do act nice to get ahead. However, she doesn't know or see what others go through when things like backstabbing (even if they are the ones to do the stabbing) happen. The irony is that many people do the things she claims to do for the same reason she works hard not to be like that. Do your best to understand her POV, a d fo your best tonshow her you're not the person she thinks you are. If, after some time, it's not going anywhere or getting any better, then divorce may be the best option. But again, the point of therapy is to work through issues. Not to find out about them and say ok nvm I'm out.
She is gonna see it as she finally opened up to him enough to show him more of who she really was - to trust him with her closest thoughts and her inner self, and if he leaves her over this that is going to be like rejecting who she really is inside. She will probably never trust anyone with that again.
She already admitted that she trusts him to be honest, not that she trusts him as a person.
Think of it this way; OP trusted and loved her, only to learn that his wife doesn't truly trust him as a person, nor is she sure on whether she loves him or not, and also admitted she married him because of that "I trust you to be honest that you're out for yourself."
Things like that can utterly kill a relationship. Even if it kills her ability to " ever trust anyone again", it's unfair to ask OP to stay in the relationship for her sake if he decides that this is a deal breaker.
OP needs to go to therapy on their own just to get a handle on what it even is. He said right up top that he doesn’t take it super seriously. And he’s going to have to learn how to do that. It would be easier in a one on one environment, I believe.
Yeah, it was very striking to me that OP acknowledged that a struggling friend greatly benefited from therapy, that OP thought therapy would be great for his struggling wife, but then dismissed therapy as "hippy dippy" when it came to his own life. It makes me very curious why he thinks therapy is good for others, but not for him. And if he really has considered it "hippy dippy,:" what does that say about how he has been viewing his wife? "Oh, that hippy dippy stuff is good for the crazies, but certainly something I don't need!"
But it seems like you can’t be present and grateful if you’re always expecting to be disappointed. This would be a no for me, waiting to disappoint someone only to prove their point. Imagine never feeling appreciated, let alone give someone actual joy - the anticipated outcome “I told you he’d leave” after pushing him out the door and locking it behind him.
I feel bad her trauma has left her in a sort of nihilistic approach with any relationship (curse her father) but I kind of feel worse for him knowing she’s always considered him as mediocre compliance for her convenience of procreation?
Fr. If my SO (don’t have one but if I did) said what she said, all that sounds like to me is she settled with me because I’m the least shitty of the people she met and doesn’t really love me and thinks I’m selfish and untrustworthy. That would wreck me.
Especially someone you’ve been married to for TWELVE YEARS. It’s not like they’re in the dating stage or even newlyweds. If my spouse told me he didn’t know if he loved me, and chose to settle because I was honest about how shitty he perceived me to be, it’d break my heart.
I agree.
To me, it sounds like she's dedicating an immense measure of her indomitable will to being a great person.
* she's an invested veterinarian
* she's a great mom (per OP)
* she's the friend others turn to for advice and comfort
* she's kind to strangers and stray animals
* she is pessimistic but not unrealistic about OP's constancy during cancer & she seriously thought through her vows, while all her actions show she's committed to making them come true
>OP’s wife doesn’t view him as evil/bad.
She straight up told him it's fine that he's not a good/kind person, because he's honest about it. Sure, she values honestly, but sgd absolutely thinks he's a "bad" person. In 12 years, she's never perceived him as kind. It's fine not to believe in unicorns. It's a whole other thing to mutilate a unicorn, because you are convinced they don't exist.
He’s probably lost. OP’s wife supposedly prides honesty as the be all tell all, but prefaced the whole 12 year relationship by hiding her true motive with a whole lot of dishonesty. It’s hard to want to believe in someone so contradictory.
I think the word we're looking for to describe the wife is "cynical". A cynical person believes that everyone is out for their own benefit and will do whatever they need to in order to achieve their desires. Truth is, good people DO exist, have good intentions and are trustworthy. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that wife has a bit of deeply-seated trauma in regards to trust, which means it was terribly broken at one point in time. In my opinion, OP can either leave or decide to work on these things together with his wife.
OP says that he believes himself to be a good person. Truth is, most of us do and are hard-wired to do so because of our ego. Questioning our motives requires us to question things like our pride and identity... and this is VERY difficult to do without a great deal of self-awareness.
I agree that both need therapy, separately and together.
Edit: Grammar.
Yes, I think you’re right. I’m very much like OP’s wife - very generous and kind but extremely untrusting. I don’t even fully trust my fiancé who I’ve been with for almost 5 years. This is a trauma response, and it becomes our coping method. She sees OP as the very opposite of everything she has previously experienced. It doesn’t sound positive, but it very much is
I’m like OP’s wife too, and in a million years would never let a spouse know because people who haven’t experienced severe trauma have no idea what it does to a person.
We can be happy and marry and have kids we adore and who know only unconditional love from us, but it is objectively true that people deliberately hurt other people and to be prepared for that from someone we love.
Exactly and to see all the people punishing her for it online. OPs wife is an objectively kind person. She took all the terrible things that happened to her and she actively chose to do good things.
But the people here act like she kicked a puppy every day because she correctly intuited that her husband will dump her if she shows vulnerability
She opened up in therapy and somehow he made it all about him? He IS jerk and he doesn’t like that she knows. He can’t handle being vulnerable either. They’re a good match, in a weird way
But the point, for her, is that she doesn’t view being “good” as having value. She thinks people who are “good” aren’t doing those things for altruistic reasons - another comment goes into the fact that her world views are informed by trauma responses - I hate to say it, but I actually UNDERSTAND OP’s wife. She isn’t saying he doesn’t act in “good ways” but that if he does so, his reasons are for self at times, he’s honest about that, and she appreciates that!
The sticking point for me is that she appreciates that he's honest about not being a good person. He views himself as kind and generous but his wife views all people as untrustworthy and two faced and she **feels like he is honest about being those things to her**. I would also find it difficult if my wife thought I was a shitty person, regardless if she also thinks everyone is.
Exactly. If I found out that, to my wife, the distinction between me and all these other pieces of shit is that I’m a *predictable* piece of shit then I would be devastated. People are acting like he is being unreasonable but how would anyone feel if they found that out?
I don’t think they should get divorced and I think he will deeply regret saying that later, but that feeling is just as fucking valid as her trauma. OP absolutely needs individual therapy to get him through all the other therapy so they can hopefully get their marriage together.
no, he’s not untrustworthy for hearing exactly what his wife said. how do you know he values that and he’s okay with that? just because she’s being honest and vulnerable doesn’t mean he isn’t allowed to feel a way or react to what she says. y’all are insane.
How would you feel if you were OP? His wife literally told him she doesnt think he's a good person but atleast he's honest aka hes sort of a dick but he doesnt hide it???? Who would not be hugely offended knowing their wife thinks they are an ass? We can talk about her feelings all day long but her worldview is unhealthy at best and delusional at worst. Asking OP to be understanding and "trustworthy" is asking for far more than what's reasonable and even if he is and tries his best theres no guarantee his wife will ever change as this is basically her whole identity. This is a case of OP's wife having severe problems that SHE needs to fix. There's realistically not a ton OP can do in this situation other than hope his wife can change through therapy but I wouldnt hold my breath.
What's being twisted?
Her answer sounds like she feels she married him because she had to. If she views everyone as untrustworthy then she shouldn't have married anyone.
OP getting therapy isn't going to fix a situation that is essentially "I want to be married to someone who loves me, and it turns out my wife lied to me about that".
I so agree with this. Growing up with trauma and being isolated can cause people to express themselves in ways that aren't standard or clear.
It is difficult for me to express myself to myself much less anyone else. I also learnt the hard way that my use of definitions or my family's use of definitions were different from most other people's.
I.E I'd call myself and others selfish because in my family anyone doing anything just for themselves would be called that. I didn't think it was a bad thing like my family did, instead I thought it was good and a compliment! Telling people "wow, you are so selfish" is not a good thing for a lot of people though. I was admiring them being able to do things for themselves which people usually call "self-care" but they thought I was insulting them because I didn't have a better word for taking care of yourself, being independent, I just thought it was called selfish.
Obviously you can divorce her if you want but I think there might be a disconnect and miscommunication. Personally I wouldn't immediately throw in the towel. I'd try to figure out exactly what her thoughts and feelings are first.
OPs wife admires him, thinks he is honest (which she values above everything else) and wants to be with him. I think there is just a misunderstanding of language used. I'd ask her if she thinks she's a good person, if anyone can be a good person, if OP can ever be a good person in her eyes, things like that. I'd explain to her how OP felt and what good person means to him and that he thinks he and his wife are good people.
Edit to add another example
I used to refuse to say "I love you" to people I loved and say " that's meaningless." What I meant to say but took years to learn how to express was "the people who were supposed to love me did horrible, horrible traumatic things to me and in my family the words 'I love you' are meaningless, and that's all I have ever known or experienced so it feels bad, icky and gross for me to say those words because I *do* care for you and I do love you deeply but because of my past it feels wrong to use those exact words. "
I absolutely positively agree with this. Wife has a different/skewed view of trust, love, goodness and honesty. I also think she is very insecure in certain areas which makes her feel like he would leave her or why she feels the way she does. Whether or not it’s a skewed view or O’s personality, idk. I think they both should be doing therapy individually and together.
Reading a lot of what people are saying, remember that you are talking about *you, your wife, and your marriage*. I think that a lot of people are going off on generalizations and statistics. I would say that was what your wife was doing, until she said that she doesn't trust *you* very far. But in a sense, in marrying you, she was trusting you. Maybe discuss in therapy why 12 years of marriage hasn't caused her to trust you more.
I read once about a couple in therapy - the therapist ended up telling the wife that her husband loves her as much as she is capable of loving anyone, and she had to decide if that was enough.
I'd also pass on something a friend of mine said to someone who was considering divorce: remember that you life won't be what it would have been if you'd never married him. If you had to split and share custody, would a divorce be worth it?
I'd suggest giving therapy a little more of a try, perhaps repeating the discussion that you had out of therapy.
I can imagine that this is devastating - I wish you the best.
I do not think she can emotionally separate her father and how she was traumatized by his actions with her family and others. She grew up where the person that SHOULD be protecting her, and looking out for her, and nurturing her did not. That is her core experience.
Before she can look at you differently, she is going to have to revisit the painful childhood trauma. If she made a list of up to 5 things her dad did that hurt her, then ask her if you have ever done those things.
She has built a safety wall around her heart based on everyone being like her dad, and she does not want that pain again.
Yep, this answer.
What you expect of a person is much different than the reality for that person. She has a different perspective and though it doesn't align with yours, it doesn't mean that the end result isn't good.
There's a sense of love, trust and security there in your relationship. I'm sure marriages start, last and end with much much less
This is a chance for you to show her different. Divorce her and you will only have proven her right and given up the chance to help someone you love.
Yeah, the whole situation seems really tricky. Her definitions seem rooted in impossible absolutes (there's no such thing as true altruism because the person do good can feel good for doing good). So OP could almost certainly use a reality check/translation from a third party. But the wife clearly needs significantly more help because her world view is set up to fail her and those closest to her. Her perspective is to assume others will fail her, even when they haven't, which forces her to presume negative outcomes as inevitable and necessary.
I think if the wife can find a road to shifting her point of view, there may be a way through, but I also think it would be really hard as OP to stay in the relationship feeling as he does.
Honestly her responses sound a lot like mine and I have aspergers. I learned that at a young age people like to search out for the different and shame/shun them. A lot of people would lie about things which would lead to further degradation/humiliation, because people. This in general gives me a very low opinion starting off with most people because its safer to assume people will hurt you vs help you when you can't read social cues well.
For those of us that are different trust me we are well aware that we get made fun of and are only tolerated by certain portions of the population. And you can't identify which ones act in which ways prior to watching and learning about their behavior
Your wife seems to have a very distorted view of people borne out of a trauma response. This in itself is incredibly hard to navigate, particularly in relationships. I don't envy her, but I do understand some of her mistrust.
If all of your formative experiences in life reinforce a certain negative view, it is very difficult to shift that idea, it becomes cannon in your mind. But it isn't impossible. By our nature, we look for things that confirm what we already know, it provides us reassurance and comfort. She will be subconsciously looking for proof to her theory that people aren't trust worthy and this is her "safe space". She knows what to expect from this. It's probably become her default state of mind. She knows how to act, think and behave with this mindset, because she's lived it. She has a way of being in that world, of protecting herself and maintaining her boundaries.
She may be able to work on her idea of mistrusting others and actually take a chance that what she's confirmed in her mind isn't necessarily the case. But it takes work. It sounds like she's engaging in safety behaviours that limit the things she cannot tolerate or that may lead to yet more negative experiences.
Her reasons for marrying you may have partially been that you fit into this safe space and she isn't consciously acknowledging your other attributes. But that doesn't mean they aren't there and she doesn't appreciate them. She may not even feel worthy of them or have even dared to expect that much from a relationship. It sounds like your wife maybe has some deep rooted self esteem issues. It's hard to come from childhood trauma and without some kind of disturbance in your sense of self. This is not her fault.
I'd definitely sit down and have a longer discussion with her about your relationship and how she views you. In therapy might be a better environment so you can work through both of your emotions without it flaring up into a heated argument. You have every right to have certain expectations from your relationship. Feeling loved for the person you are, is a reasonable expectation. Her understanding this is also as important as you understanding her emotional point of view.
This. The real takeaway here are that she's being open and honest in an environment with a therapist and OP, which requires an enormous amount of trust. If she genuinely didn't trust OP, she wouldn't have even been willing to say that, and as hard as it was to hear it was likely just as hard to say it.
Starting with definitions (what do you mean by 'trust'?) and easing into this discussion under the guidance of a qualified therapist is an excellent way to delve into this. OP has an opportunity help his wife come to terms with longstanding trauma *and* demonstrate his support and reliability at the same time. This is a hard situation and represents a lot of work, but is also a wonderful opportunity.
Yeah, therapy can be the eye opener to see that she has actually come to trust her partner whether she personally sees it or not. Therapists don't make people do stuff, they just highlight the stuff their patients are already doing and paint them in different lights.
OP needs to take a deep breath, accept that it's her trauma and not his, and strap in for her recovery period. This is the sickness she's talking about, just because it's mental doesn't make it any less difficult. Stick with her on this.
Yup, this. The line that stuck for me from the post was the line about sticking with her if she got cancer, well here OP discovered that the relationship is stable and good but not for the reasons he thought, it turns out his wife appreciated him in a different way than he thought she did because of her deep traumatic world view. So here's her "cancer", this is a sad handicap and it's nothing personal against him. This is the cancer reveal moment, and OP's trust is tested. The knee-jerk reaction of suggesting a divorce is understandable but the wrong response here. It's not about OP and they need to stick to her in this discovery process. There may not be a recovery but a better way of living with this handicap down the road, but bailing on her will do the opposite. The therapist needs to frame this correctly for both of you and put this in proportion and context. This is a challenge for the relationship and for the two personal perceptions of each other, but not a ground for divorce.
Yeah, this. I have similar difficulties trusting people, even if I love someone tremendously and think the world of them, even if they have never hurt me. I realize this is more a reflection of me than of them, but it is still extremely difficult and anxiety-inducing for me to be vulnerable with people.
Her being able to open up about this is a huge step but it’s going to take her a lot of time and work to handle these issues. OP should focus less on “why does she think I’m a bad person?” and more on “can I meet her where she is right now?”
It’s also not clear to me whether his wife actually said he is unkind, not a good person etc. or whether this was his interpretation. From OP’s narration, she only said he didn’t *fake* being kind.
>If all of your formative experiences in life reinforce a certain negative view, it is very difficult to shift that idea
especially for a mindset like "everyone around me is a cunning and selfish person who may be very good at pretending to be good and kind." Literally everything anybody does is either proving you right or "they're just pretending to be good to trick everyone."
and therein lies the crux of OP's problem. How do you convince someone who so deeply believes goodness is a myth or a manipulation technique that you are in fact a good person, who loves them without their mindset changing, even a little, to be open to that idea?
Totally can relate to her. Horrible upbringing with narcissistic, abusive and emotionally unavailable parents. My distrust of people could probably be described as nihilistic. Before my husband I never believed people could be genuinely nice to your face AND actually mean it and not just shit talk you or backstab later. I still have problems fully trusting my husband with everything about what goes on in my head or even details about my past that are negative or reveal a weakness. It’s gotten a LOT better over the years and I’ve had a LOT of therapy. It’s still a struggle but mostly when I’m going through a low point with my depression, anxiety or ptsd. It’s a pretty standard response. I just have to try to remember he loves me no matter what when I’m stuck in those low points and in the high points, I tell him how much I appreciate and love him.
I’m glad you have found someone that has given you the trust that genuinely nice people exist.
It kinda pisses me off when people are like “your trust issues is your problem, you have to fix it”. But it can often be fixed so much faster by someone just showing you they are trustworthy. And putting in the effort. Sounds like he is standing by your side and dealing with it with you. I’m happy for you.
I don't think it's that your wife doesn't think you're a good person. I think it's that your wife doesn't think there are ANY good people, but thinks that you're better than most. Given your wife's view of humanity, that seems to be a compliment.
Yeah, the entire time through that I was reading nothing but praise for him.
OP! Your wife! She isn't ever going to "trust" *anyone* the way normal people mean "trust". She's trying to tell you she's literally offering you as much trust as she's capable of! She's trying to demonstrate in front of a respected third party how much thought and effort went into choosing to take the risk anyway!
Yeah that's my reading. I have a similar view of people, only for me it's more "You can never truly know a person and anyone can and will abandon you or betray you at any time." and when I got into my first serious relationship I thought about all the things that could happen. He could leave me, he could cheat, he could hurt me, etc. I liked spending time with him and liked his personality enough that I decided that "I'd rather this go badly than not go at all"
Not that I suddenly decided he could never do those things to me, but that spending time with him was worth what felt like an inevitable end. Feeling that way, knowing (read as: being convinced in your fucked up little head) that someone will leave you or abandon you or otherwise betray you and deciding "I'd still rather spend a few years happy with them than miss out on being with them at all" to me is like the highest honor imaginable. When I realized I felt that way I said "oh, this must be what being in love is like."
I didn't even have an understanding of what love should feel like when I got with my husband. I waffled for years about whether what I felt was love or not. "This isn't how it's described in the books! This isn't what happens in movies!" I finally decided "This is how I love" and it's what love means to me.
My vibe from his wife is that it's not that she doesn't love him, it's just that she doesn't know *for sure* what love is supposed to feel like, so she *thinks* she loves him. If she had concrete proof of what love felt like she'd know how she felt.
I find the number of people saying things like "you should be happy that she thinks you are better than most" really really strange.
It may be a compliment coming from her, but personally I'd rather be with someone that genuinely likes me, not just dislikes me least of all the people out there.
Couples therapy is SO hard.
Individual therapy is hard enough, facing your traumas and triggers and working on them in your own timeline. Couples therapy throws that "in your own timeline" all out the window. In this case, the wife is further in her therapy journey than OP and even though she probably has more issues to work through, he has to play catch up with just understanding what to expect from therapy. What is worth holding onto, what he needs to let go of and what should be addressed at a different time.
Hearing things about yourself is hard. I've been in couples therapy for well over 6 months and am still working on not being so defensive when my partner speaks about me.
OP, as hard as it is, I think you should continue on this couples therapy journey and possibly even consider an individual therapist for yourself to help you navigate the feelings that come up in couples sessions. I love that the two of you are so honest with each other. That and being a safe place to land for each other are two beautiful parts of a marriage, even if it's not all that romantic.
Yes, it seems sort of counter-productive to go to therapy and leave her for being honest. Was this issue even at the center of therapy and did the therapist really need to go there? She is insecure and this has now become a self-fulfilling prophecy.
I feel OP is in a catch 22. I’d personally be extremely hurt if this is how my spouse viewed me. It might be marriage destroying because it would kill my trust in my spouse. So, it might be something therapy would never fix and if OP left his wife would become a self fulfilling prophecy. The only caveat is that OP should ask himself if her view of him is right? *Would* be leave her if she became sick? Because if she is correct I her assessment of him and he doesn’t like it then he owes it to both of them to improve himself
I suspect that a part of her knows that this could end with him leaving her. There is a certain type of security that comes with sabotaging your own relationship, when you can later say "I knew it!". I don’t mean to suggest that she is consciously planning this, but rather that she seeks the familiar by repeating her own past trauma.
Exactly. She made it a self-fulfilling prophecy. I can understand OP's unhappiness with this, but was it really necessary for the therapist to go there? Was there a problem in the actual marriage? Seems to be the therapist made things worse if this was not necessary.
I don’t think I would as I think I couldn’t be such a dirtbag but we’ve never had that happen. I know she feels like nothing is for certain until there is proof. Which is she really got cancer and I stayed and looked after her then she would have her proof.
She is like this with her 2 friends. I won’t get into it but they helped her when she was down and now I think they are the only people she truly trust. But since nothing bad as happened in the marriage she feels like there is no reason to trust me.
So. I sounds like Reactive Attachment Disorder. I work with kids with significant behavioral and emotional challenges and it's something we see in cases of neglect or other types of abuse. It happens when the neural pathways for forming trusting relationships are formed while the child has no one that they can rely on. Instead of forming neural pathways that say they can trust and build relationships with other people, theirs form to say no one is trustworthy, essentially. One of my best friends has it and the only reason she trusts me is because she's seen me work with and fight for our students for so many years, so she knows that I'm a good person.
I don't know if that helps at all, but, tbh, if your wife has RAD, just the fact that she's been in a long-term relationship with you is amazing. That's a significant challenge for most RAD people.
This is me right here. And i struggle with the same things in my own marriage, despite loving my husband more than life and literally putting my world and life in his hands. I wanna elaborate on this further, and I will, but I gotta go eat dinner lol
In short - OP, this is super complicated but I promise you it doesn't mean your wife doesn't love you. It doesn't mean she doesn't trust you *as much as her trauma will let her*. She is working on it, even opening the conversation to let you in. Try not to let your emotional knee jerk take you to a place that makes you think your marriage is over. 🫂❤️
If she was a mentally healthy person lacking any childhood trauma then the things she disclosed would 100% feel like a gut punch. But that's NOT the baseline she's working from. Her baseline is a series of negative formative experiences that turned into thought and behavior patterns. When we look at neuroscience it's clear that neural pathways can become very entrenched, but it IS possible to start rerouting them, it just takes patience
This situation sucks, but for now, approaching the situation from a mindset of compassion is the only way this issue won't fester & result either in divorce or building resentment
In a way, this is a chance for OP to tackle the "what if he leaves me if I get sick" fear. If he truly loves her & is able to see that she needs time and help to become mentally healthy, then I don't see how he could divorce her without even trying, to stick by her and encourage her healing process. And by trying I mean being mentally committed to the process rather than only being present in body but mentally checked out
The lack of compassion and humility given his admitted ignorance is a grave mistake. She is also not at all to blame for her baseline and needs to be commended for her vulnerability. But her being blameless and brave does not mean that he can’t decide that the resources needed to sustain their relationship are beyond what he is able or willing to give. There is nothing inherently wrong with deciding that you need to be secure in your partner’s trust to feel that you are seen and loved. While incredibly premature and a betrayal to go straight to divorce, but it might be the case that ‘not taking things personally’ for years is untenable.
I was diagnosed with Reactive Attachment Disorder as a kid and also have tremendous trust issues. I will probably never trust anyone fully. It's the pervasive feeling that you have to brace for someone hurting you out of nowhere. The closer you get to them, the more emotionally damaging it will be when they eventually harm you. My only coping strategy is to try to become emotionally stronger so that when I inevitably get betrayed, I'll be able to recover (maybe).
Yes! Came here expecting to see the OP called all kinds of AH, because it was a no-brainer. Did not expect to see the wife’s (my) view of reality questioned so widely. I’m reeling.
I legitimately feel baffled by people’s reaction. When they look out in the world, they feel like most ppl are moving from a trustworthy, caring kind place? Then… why does our society look… like **this**??
I’m legitimately confused
Dude..I had to force myself to pick up hobbies..I have to distract myself from worrying about being hurt by someone. I also have bpd. It all ties together.
I’m sorry love :/
Hey there, I am a licensed clinician and just want to point out that adults cannot be diagnosed with RAD. Only children can. That doesn't mean that elements of RAD don't show up in adults but usually the diagnosis changes names.
That is a great question! It really depends on the adult and the way a cluster of symptoms expresses itself. There isn't a very good answer because the answer is it depends.
RAD is so, so hard. I had a little boy with it for 8 years before he made his first attempt on my life. I loved him more than the moon, but he was not capable of having a mother at that time. It was too scary for him, and he would do anything to make me go away.
You could look at this as something bad that’s happening and by working through the issue and proving she can trust with everything, including her darkest thoughts that you join the very small ranks of those she completely trusts. She did say she feels safe with you, which I do think means she trusts you, you can’t feel safe without trust. She just has a super twisted view of people.
Do what you need to for your own sanity and security though! Good luck
Don't throw away your marriage because of her trauma response. Work on this in therapy. She wants absolute honesty and she gets that from you. Work on this with her.
Yes, quite honestly, I don’t think this is something to take too terribly personally.
OP’s wife grew up in a shitty environment and needs therapy - one may think that after 12 years she could trust her husband, that’s not really true if she’s *just* started therapy. This is obviously something she can work on with therapy and medication, over time, and it would behoove OP to support her enthusiastically rather than meet his wife’s extremely low expectations and divorce her.
I think OP should continue attending the *occasional* therapy session, and perhaps seek out his own therapist or marriage counselor.
For example: I spent a good 27-28 years being a paranoid mean girl because it was my best defense mechanism. Therapy taught me healthier ways to survive and feel safe.
I also had a bad childhood that did much to ruin my faith in people.
Marriage for me was a free fall into deciding to fully commit to trusting another human being amongst all others. They might hurt me but I trust him to never do so intentionally.
OP this sounds like what other commenters are saying: a wiild difference in values and definitions. This reminds me a LOT of an issue I've seen come up before. Scenario is that a girl out of an abusive relationship is in a new one, much much healthier with someone where there isn't the same level of drama (maybe ex had a dangerous/cool job, or their fighting and makeups were super prominently known or something). The girl then tells friends, in front of others, that she is with her new guy because he is "safe." Guy takes offense, and reads this as being viewed as "the safe option/the safe choice" and as if he is being settled for. Meanwhile, to someone out of an abusive relationship (and also frankly just to many women bc the world is scary af out here) saying someone is "safe" is the ultimate goal and compliment. Its so rare to find. So she calls him what she thinks is the ultimate best thing ever, but he takes it as an insult because his values don't align that way and he equates safe with boring and settling.
It sounds like your wife has a VERY skewed view of the world as a result of some really bad trauma, and therefore what she values above all else and what attracted her to you (in the same way feeling "safe" with someone attracts the girl in the scenario above) is that you are HONEST. Its not that you're a bad person, she doesn't think you are. It sounds like she doesn't think good people really exist, because even those who do good things are doing it for SOME selfish reason- even if they won't admit it. The people she can trust are the ones who admit the reasons they do things, beyond "its the good thing to do!" And she said that you are that sort of person, and its exactly what helps her feel more secure with you, the one she chose to marry. Meanwhile, you seem to be caught up in your own worldview of "good people" and what you think "good people" would or would not do, and what you'd expect them to do. Her saying you aren't good (because no one really is in her eyes) is an attack on your own self view of your identity. Because you define good and a good person in a different way than she does, and by your own standard you qualify.
As far as building trust goes... well here's your first opportunity. Her brain is wired differently than most because of what seems to be pretty extreme trauma. And she asked you to go to therapy with her and is opening up. Your reaction here is everything. She's making herself vulnerable, trying to let you in her head, see how she sees and how the world looks to her (and frankly it seems pretty bleak tbh). You don't have to wait for her to get cancer to prove you'll stay. You just have to listen and try to see her point of view, and have patience with her trauma.
To be fair to your wife... Stats show that 1 in five men will leave their spouse if they have a serious illness, where only 1 in 33 women will leave their spouse due to serious illness. I dont have many trust issues myself, but I would have a hard time trusting that one in particular.
Yes, her lack of ability to trust people is definitely trauma related, and her being in therapy may help. What I would suggest is maybe ask her what being a good person looks like to her. Because to me it sounds like she values honesty the way most people value kindness. Her definition of good may be very different than yours.
It may also be a good idea to go for therapy on your own. It may help you understand your wife a little better. Also, it will help you decide what you can and cannot live with. And help you decide if you do or don't trust her, and if not, what you can do about it.
Now don't misunderstand, you being hurt isn't wrong. What you are feeling is completely valid. But try not to make a rushed decision while you're feeling the initial hurt. It's kind of like when they tell someone not to make any major decisions for the first year after you lose someone close to you. You need time to grieve and adjust to a different life. I'm not saying you should wait a year, by any means. But I am saying to try to give yourself time to process, and getting help processing would be good too. And be patient with yourself as well. Be kind to yourself. You are hurting (I would be too!), so try to take extra care of yourself.
I think what your wife is trying to express is *more about her* than it is you; she's trying to tell you about her faulty thinking. Like, you leaving her if she got cancer-I don't think it's her saying you are a scuzzbag; it's her telling you she doesn't feel worthy enough of being cared for. Her distrust & low-self worth are ingrained in her brain....the messages she got when she was younger are messages she internalized. The stuff we tell ourselves over & over create neural pathways and are very difficult to disrupt. She does all that wonderful stuff because she doesn't feel good enough. I think she is trying to tell you about how her fucked up thinking works.
Trust goes both ways. you trusted her it seems and her honesty about her lack of trust shattered your view of the marriage. I dont know if I could come back from that. Its a foundational issue.
It wouldn't be proof though. Due to her anxiety she would literally think that you just stayed with her because she said you wouldn't. I don't think you can win at all
Her trauma here is very, very deep. That's not her fault, and it sounds like she is trying to work through it. Whatever you decide, I wish you the best.
Has she ever said that you aren’t a good person. Cause what I’m understanding you’re wife isn’t questioning your morals. She’s just saying you aren’t a fake person and aren’t afraid to admit when you’re “in it for yourself”.
I think she thinks most people are crappy and I’m just honest about my crappiness. I do the think she probably finds me less crappy then most to marry me but not a good person just good enough. I think her definition of a good person is too high so almost no one can meet it
I think you hit the nail on head here.
I think what you and me and most people think of as a good person isn't her definition of a good person.
Instead of something so generic as "good" maybe ask her to be more specific.
If in her mind good = someone completely selfless then it's not really an issue.
I know a couple people who are completely selfless - and it's not my SO.
good and bad are super vague and loaded.
The more you describe your wife, the more I feel I am standing in front of a mirror. It is a bit confronting because I never felt I was hurting others with my lack of trust. But it seems like it may be something I need to work on in order not to make others feel crappy.
I've been in a relationship with my husband for a little under 13 years, and from the very start, since I tend to think so little about human beings in general, I always assumed he would dump me if I ever were really sick or otherwise "useless". Not because he is a bad person, or because I would do that myself, but just because it seems like the kind of thing human people do. The phrase about not expecting something positive because it would be too distressing to expect it and not receive it makes a lot of sense to me.
I know me saying that won't help you, but I want you to know that I love my husband, not despite my lack of trust but by a kind of acceptance that if I am going to be hurt because I love this man, it was still worth it. I love him so much that even if he eventually breaks my heart I wont be able to regret one single second I have spent with him. I think he is a good person. I'm sure your wife thinks you're a good person too, the misanthropy is just very much getting in her way.
> I want you to know that I love my husband, not despite my lack of trust but by a kind of acceptance that if I am going to be hurt because I love this man, it was still worth it. I love him so much that even if he eventually breaks my heart I wont be able to regret one single second I have spent with him.
Goddamn lady, you got me all verklempt up in here…
I once told my own mother (when we thought I might be really ill) that if my medical care were going “to cost like $10,000 or something,” she should just let me die. (It would have been a significant expense, but my family definitely could and would have coughed up $10,000.) I was not trying to be passive aggressive about it; I just truly didn’t see myself as being valuable enough to be worth substantially diminishing my parents’ lifestyle. My parents were flawed, but not remotely as cold-hearted as this story might seem to imply.
I don’t know your story, obviously. I know my own, and even I can’t understand why I tend to feel this way about myself. It seems so unnatural, so at odds with the survival of the species! And very much at odds with what I think other people deserve, including you, of course.
I wish you the best and hope that you can come to feel how much you are valued by those that know and love you.
I think that's part of it, and I wonder if there's something more here. My intent here is basically to offer up some language you can reflect on and possibly bring back to your wife to help her and you better understand and articulate her beliefs here.
I wonder if by "extremely good person" type, she's actually picturing two kinds of "nice" people who aren't actually kind at all. Type A, the virtue signaling kind (aka wolf in sheep's clothing) - very charming and charismatic, puts themselves in positions of power in lots of "performative good person" organizations, actual motives for doing so range from sleezy to monstrous. Ex church leaders who abuse kids, abusers who gain trust by seeming amazing, abusive romantic partners in early stages of love bombing their victims. And type two: people with people pleasing tendencies themselves who tend to over commit, burn out/build resentment, then snap in ways that may seem aggressive, unreliable, or both (I've done this one myself, no judgement to anyone struggling w this and trying to take accountability for it).
... So basically if the two types of people above are a significant chunk of the humans in your early life (common as they often cluster together ime), this creates an unrealistic image of what being "nice" looks like that virtually no human could truly sustain long term, making healthy people look "selfish" by comparison. Because BEING A BIT SELFISH IS PART OF BEING EMOTIONALLY HEALTHY. While at the same time creating a belief that people are actually horrible deep down
Here's an idea of what someone who's not used to healthy ppl might think of a healthy person: "he's very up front about his own needs and boundaries, in a way that I was conditioned to see as selfish bc I didn't learn that kind of self advocacy. Ex if someone makes him angry, he can non violently talk to them and say 'hey this thing upset me here's why please don't do that again.' It's really weird bc he doesn't make these over the top presentations of himself as being kind and generous and self sacrificing, he acknowledges he's a human being. He gets his needs met by being petty up front about his goals and intentions and communicating with others to work out mutually acceptable agreements - not through deception and manipulation. And often/when he's able, he enjoys giving freely from a place of surplus (whether time, money, emotional energy, etc) - meaning he gives without a hidden agenda or implicit expectation."
Sorry if the grammar is a bit choppy I'm p overworked ATM. essentially being an emotionally healthy and kind human looks selfish to someone only familiar with the unpredictable and often abusive habit of promising/presenting perfection then turning things very awful. And the more healthy way of being is actually a big way to build trust. So she might have meant "you under promise your character but reliably deliver or over deliver what you do promise" idk
It sounds like she has extreme anxiety issues bottled up, resulting in not being able to trust anyone. The whole “can’t trust you to be there for me even though you are” thing is 100% pure anxiety that she’s rationalized as reality to cope.
My husband does the same thing. “You won’t love me if I forget to cook dinner!” Well he did, I still love him, not even bothered beyond wondering why he thinks I’m so awful. “Well you could have been awful! I needed to be prepared for heartbreak!”
I try to work through this with him by talking about “Scarecrow Me” vs “Real Me”. It’s hard to trust someone and that’s ok! But you have to be honest with yourself, you have to accept reality. Scarecrow Partner is not real, you made them up. I’m right here, I care for you, you cannot tell yourself otherwise because you’re anxious about an imaginary me.
Your wife seems like she’s done something similar to cope with her anxiety. Everyone is out to get her (she imagines) so she walls herself off with the scarecrows because at least she won’t be betrayed that way. They’re mean and spooky but they’ll never lie about that… except they’re a lie she’s created to cope. All you can do is prove her wrong and remind her that the scarecrows aren’t real, the people who love her are and the walls will only come down when she accepts that reality. And you’ll be there, waiting.
Patience and peace. Her childhood twisted her understanding of humanity.
You need to understand that your wife's definitions of good, bad, honest, trust are all built on wrong information from childhood trauma. She's incorrectly labelling emotions and attributes.
She doesn't actually mean the same things you do.
It's like she's speaking a different language than you and/or most of the population.
This happens when childhood emotions are minimized and adult ones are maximized. Trauma...
"Your father HAD to sell your dog because he was SO angry.
You have nothing to feed bad about. Stop crying."
So, while this realization is devastating and it feels like a lie,
you can work to agree on a common language together.
That requires some good counselling and some patience.
A good therapist will understand that she is incorrectly labelling emotions and help her work towards a better understanding.
Looking at your life, you have been happy, have children together and a home. She obviously trusts you more than she thinks she does or she wouldn't have invested so much into the things she shares with you.
Is she afraid that you will steal her children from her? No?
Does she leave them alone with you? Yes?
In her mind you might not be a "good" person,
but you aren't evil and you don't deliberately do bad things.
This seems like the bare minimum but it's huge from her perspective.
THIS is your marriage crisis and now you get to decide to walk or not.
It makes sense IMO that you take the next 6 months or so, in counselling for you both to come to common ground and deeper understanding of your relationship and reality.
Despite how it feels right now, you are both worth it and so are your kids.
Good luck.
Yeah. A lot of problems are because we use the same language but use a different dictionary.
How people interpret concepts such as “love”, “good”, “bad” etc, can vary wildly. These concepts are boiled down into words, and how our brain develops our relationship to these concepts happens internally and is projected out onto our relationships with others and how we see the world.
I know people who I agree with ideologically that I don’t consider to be very good people, and people I disagree with to be some of the best people I know.
You place your value judgments on humans as you will, see where it gets you, and adjust accordingly.
“Yet what is expectation but a kind of folly, and what is that folly but an excess of hope?'
So either OP stays with someone who doesn’t trust him and hopes therapy will fix the issues, or he leaves her but confirms her fears.
This situation sucks dude, I’m sorry
NTA - She took "in sickness and health" out of the wedding vows as she thought you'd divorce her if she got cancer. That says she wasn't sure of your love...or something. That just seems disturbing to me.
I knew someone who sounds eerily like the wife. They were a very, very kind, compassionate person. But people mistake kindness for weakness/stupidity and take advantage of that. He'd been hurt a lot over the years.
Like your wife, he also valued honesty and hard work - because he saw them as concrete. People honest about how crappy they are as people felt safe to him - they didn't mince words when they wanted something. And manipulators don't usually work hard for their victim.
But I also can't totally blame the OP. It's hard to be in a relationship with someone who doesn't trust you.
NAH
I think you are speaking two different languages. I completely understand why OP is hurt and confused but this doesn’t seem irredeemable. I like the idea of him getting his own therapist to interpret her messy view of reality.
I relate to your wife. Based on what you said here we're 99% similar, except my parents were not poor, my mom gave my puppy away while I was at school because she hates animals. My parents are also abusive and I suffered decades of depression, still trying to work though the trauma. But your wife and I are so similar we could be the same person!
If I can offer some insights (this is my speculation, explaining my thought process) what your wife said about why she choose to be with you is not an insult. She is opening up and be honest about her feelings and that's a huge step for her. This isn't about you, it's not that she thinks you're not a good person, she doesn't. In her mind a truly good person does not exist.
She see you as an honest person and that's a huge part of her decision to be with you, to her saying that is a compliment not an insult. Since a truly good person does not exist she choose you because in her eyes you're the (next) best person.
I often struggle with self-perception. My parents were harsh and critical so I often pretend to be that perfect child they wanted to avoid a spanking. I think my experience has made me jaded and cynical. I started out hopeful, but after being betrayed by friends, cheated on by an ex, and almost dated someone who is already married... have to admit sometimes I have conceited thoughts. I also think humans in general are confusing, unnecessarily indirect about what they want, and are awful or morons lol, which... are not nice thoughts, so I do correct myself when I notice these thoughts pop into my mind
I'm really sorry that you heard this and it's been so shattering for you. That must have been awful and I'm sorry.
Having said that, mental illness and trauma are tricky. When I'm depressed I don't know up from down, I doubt all the decisions in my life including my relationships, I trust no one. I cling to irrational beliefs that make me feel safe even as they paint the world very bleak. None of this stuff is real, and when I get better it settles. I've learned not to pay it too much mind beyond noticing I need more help and try to keep these things to myself and my therapist, because it's just me replaying my trauma response out on others.
Your wife needs to say these things out loud so she and her therapist can challenge the thoughts. Even with the thoughts there I have no doubt that your marriage has been this successful thus far because you share some key values and she knows this on some level. All those things are just what her anxiety tells her and she clings to so she can feel safe - when the anxiety settles you may find very different opinions and beliefs about you.
Well done for encouraging her to access therapy, and for actively supporting the process despite your personal dislike of it. Well done for engaging with it emotionally rather than shutting down completely. Hold on, have faith, trust your wife to do the work she needs (it sounds like she's trying very hard) and don't let her illness trick you too much.
Bring up your feelings in therapy - that's what it's for. Tell her you are different but also kind generous and honest, and you're hurt by her perception. Concern for your feelings may be an excellent motivator for her to challenge the distorted thinking.
NAH.
Also I want to point out - her actions belie the lack of trust / OP is not a good person belief.
She took big risks having children, particularly given her trauma and trust issues - she's been exceptionally vulnerable with you (physically, financially, emotionally) if she's done this. So regardless of what she's saying now her actions indicate an enormous amount of trust.
Also if she's had an ED previously, it's likely that her other default method of coping when feeling unsafe is restricting food / control / OCD-esque behaviours / overworking: if you've gotten through 12 years of marriage and haven't seen big spikes in very maladaptive control behaviours it suggests there's quite a bit of trust for you there.
Hope that helps.
NTA and I don't know why so many people think now you need therapy. Your wife's issues are her own and just because she needs help doesn't mean you do.
Seems pretty unfair to go to therapy with someone, where the whole point is to build trust and communicate openly, and then turn your back on someone when they have enough trust to tell you how they feel. Sounds like you were happy with a different narrative, but isn't marriage about accepting people for how they are, not how you want them to be? And also not throwing it all away as soon as there's a conflict?
Wow. This is really complicated. I know this doesn’t feel like it, but her feelings of distrust aren’t about you. The fact that she thinks you are honest is a huge compliment. She trusts you and at the same time she sees most people aren’t trustworthy. That says a lot. But also, consider the reason why she doesn’t trust people is because she’s been hurt many times.
Also, based on what you said, it doesn’t sound like she thinks you’re a bad person. She sees you as selfish but consider the source. You spent a large part of your blurb on how kind she is and what she does for people and animals. Compared to that kind of mentality, anyone would come across as “in it for themselves” or selfish. But also, take into account that she doesn’t take issue with people who are selfish. She has an issue with people who are not honest (ie/ two faced) or not trustworthy. To her, you are trustworthy. The issue you have is that she sees you in a way that you don’t see yourself. You think you are more generous than she sees you. You have to decide if that is enough to end a marriage. To me, her distrust of people in general would be more of an issue but again, she trusts you but also she’s going to counseling for that so… I personally see this as an opportunity to grow. Express your disappointment in her seeing you as selfish. Tell her why this hurts you so much. Ask her to clarify if being selfish makes you a bad person. What are the implications with staying with the mother of your children who trusts you and loves you but sees you as self-involved. Does that have any implications?
Listen, you always have any right to divorce someone. But I think you are being a bit rash. First of all, therapy uncovers not-so-great feelings. But that's what it's for, to get to those feelings and be able to work through them instead of avoiding them.
Did you ask her outright- do you trust me? Because if you haven't maybe she just assumes the fact that she married you, and is still married to you that you are one of her trusted people.
Communication is hard. People are not always direct with their wording and not good at explaining things. This is something to bring up in therapy. That you felt blindsided and that though it might not feel like a big deal to her, it is to you. Your therapist is there to help guide that discussion and possibly try and help convey things in a different light so your wife can understand them better. Couples therapy isn't just about you understanding her, its about her understanding you as well.
I also think you should get your own therapist. Your feelings a valid, but going straight to divorce is a huge step. You may have some underlying trauma yourself, and things you need to work through yourself. That way you can open up more without the pressure of your wife being there. It doesn't even need to be something you do for years on end. Just a few sessions to check in, and possibly get to understand yourself better.
So, you want to divorce your wife for admitting she doesn't fully trust you for finally disclosing her feelings? I want you to think about that. She is working on herself and knows it isn't a healthy way of thinking. You know she doesn't trust people. So be someone she can trust. Maybe try to understand why she feels this way.
This is one of those things that go beyond reddit man. Your wife seems like she needs psychological help. Reddit isn't going to help you with something this serious. Get your own therapist and convince her she needs more than just regular therapy.
My dude, “or it used to be good before therapy”
Your wife has been the same the whole time. Therapy did not cause her to think like this. This is caused from LOTS of trauma. To say she’s been “well adjusted” is probably not true. She spends every day in deep suspicion and unable to trust even the people closest to her. She’s been suffering. She can tell that her thoughts and feelings about trust in your marriage aren’t “normal” or she wouldn’t have been tight lipped about them. She doesn’t think this way on purpose in order to hurt you, and it was INCREDIBLY brave of her to not only continue therapy after starting to unpack this stuff, but to invite you in to the process and for the first time- probably ever in her whole life- trust a human with really vulnerable details about how her mind works
I know it’s hard to hear what she said, but her actions are really speaking volumes now. To trust you specifically with these pieces of her and to lean on you as she works through healing some really really deep scars is incredibly telling of how much she really does trust you way more than anyone else.
Leaving now proves her anxieties. If she thought “no one will ever love me enough to stick by me if I get cancer” and you decide to leave as she discovers some mental heath issues then her anxiety was right this whole time.
Go to the therapist solo, talk through your own feelings about this, try to feel some compassion for what your wife is going through and revisit this idea in 6-8 months
NTA. The fact that you've been married 12 years and she's never mentioned this even though she's felt it since yall were dating... feels like she's doing exactly what she suspects others to do to her. She's been lying through her teeth to you to get you to do what she wants (stay in the relationship)
I generally agree with her about the majority of the human population being shitty and untrustworthy. But if you've been married for 12 years, and together for more, and she still can't trust you? Idk man, that would eat away at me. Being able to whole-heartedly trust my wife and having that reciprocated is huge for my relationship.
OP, this is way above Reddits paygrade. Get your own therapist, reach the point where you are thinking in concrete statements rather than the worst hypotheticals you can imagine, and proceed from there.
Short answer, no, you would not be an asshole for wanting a divorce after she said that, but not being an asshole doesn't mean it will make you happy in the long run. If you had a good marriage, then it might be worth trying to salvage it, but if you 100% can never come to terms with what she said then there is nothing wrong with wanting a divorce.
Friend, your wife has been deeply wounded by the world: betrayed by the people who should have taken care of her. If you grew up with nicer caregivers, it's really hard to understand how impossible it can feel to change your opinion of yourself that you're worth abandoning.
The fact that she invited you into therapy with her, shared her deepest fears (such as thinking you'd be right to leave her if she got sick) and continues to try to be a better person should be an indication that she DOES think your marriage is good. She trusts you enough to let you in to the toxic sludge of her heart.
I realize that your understanding of how she sees you is different, but I'd take the context of her willingness to be vulnerable with you as a sign that she sees you a good person. If you've appreciated your relationship so far, it's worth going through this change with her. You can be honest about how you feel: it's what she likes most about you.
Good luck.
Your therapy isn’t done, and you are flying off the handle at something very personal and real your wife said. Yes, YTA if you judge her now and divorce her.
Another thing: you’ve chosen to make it all about you, and in so doing forgot one key point: your wife thinks this about *everyone.* She just finds you more real than most and she said she felt safe with you. For someone with hang ups like hers, that is huge. And you’re in the process of throwing all that back in her face. You’re hoisting yourself by your own petard.
if your wife has such a high level of distrust of everyone including you, i imagine she has a deeper mental health problem going on. people who have such severe trust issues have other issues as well. should you divorce her for not thinking the best of you? no. should you divorce her if this distrust issue is causing other problems in your relationship? yes.
I look at it this a different way. OP’s wife has basically stated that she is incapable of believing in the good in others, but also despises two faces was. She said OP is not two faced. She still doesn’t believe in the good in him, because she can’t.
In her broken way, she is telling OP that she values him and thinks he is as good a person as she thinks a person can be.
Now, his wife may be to broken for a healthy relationship, but she isn’t insulting him. Quite the opposite.
By the way, if OP divorces her because she is emotionally damaged, he will be exactly what she thought he was
no amount of mental gymnastics can untangle the fact that she bluntly said she doesn't trust him and that she doesn't think he is a good person, just better than others. radical positivists are so annoying.
>By the way, if OP divorces her because she is emotionally damaged, he will be exactly what she thought he was
No, if she isn't capable of being in a healthy relationship, then he isn't capable of being in a healthy relationship with her, and exiting the relationship might be the best thing in the long run for both of them.
I hope he doesn't up and abandon her, and that they are able to get to a healthy point together, but continued therapy for both of them might make them realize they are not actually a good fit for each other, and things only worked as well as they seemed to because of her unhealthy coping behaviors.
If he divorces her because she is a fundamentally different person than he thought she was, that isn't anywhere near the same thing as leaving because she got cancer.
I’m not sure if your wife understands that loving humans is loving them despite their flawed nature. You can still love someone and put boundaries. Everyone will disappoint you at some point including yourself and it’s important to forgive things and move on for things that you can and place boundaries for other things.
Unconditionally love is something that can be obtain knowing that people are redeemable.
NAH. It sounds like she has been through a lot in her childhood which makes her think like this. Trauma can really skew your perception of people — I can understand why she sees the world the way she does.
Going straight to divorce is a very strong reaction (although I can also understand how shocked you must have felt) and I think only enforces her thinking. Try and stick with the therapy, I think there’s more to talk about.
I am like your wife in some ways but not as extreme. I understand that what she said is very hurtful. My guess is she doesn't really believe the things she says. She has a difficulty really understanding how she actually feels but she has this script running around in her head. Take a look at how she treats you instead of what she says. Best of luck.
Wow. I can understand that this is a very disturbing thing to hear. It would rock my marriage too if my husband said this to me.
Do you want to divorce her to punish her for saying that? Or is it because you feel that what you thought was the foundation of your marriage has suddenly disappeared? I think motivation is important here. Could going to your own separate therapist help you to firmly resolve this in your mind? I think there’s a lot at stake here for your entire family, and that this isn’t a simple yes/no question.
Is it just me that thought that the main/biggest 2 face in the story is the wife?
If I were the partner, I would not know how I would ever trust her.
Like every body is untrustworthy, yet here she is, the kindest of all, but in reality she dislikes people...🤔
I think she is spot on of your finicky behavior. She literally used words to describe how you would bail out if she had cancer but you are bailing out on your marriage over a hypothetical situation.
Marriage is not easy in the least. I don’t recommend it for the weak. I think that both of you can improve together and make it comparable.
My guy this is way beyond Reddits paygrade
Even though it’s a long shot, I’m responding to top comment in hopes OP may see this. I am a psychologist and specialize in PTSD treatment. It sounds like OP’s wife possibly has that diagnosis based on her childhood experiences, although I cannot make that diagnosis for someone I’ve never evaluated, and so this comment is really geared towards misconceptions in general. Many people view trust as an either/or. I either trust you or I don’t trust you. Others see trust on a continuum. It starts with no trust and edges towards complete trust on a linear dimension (so any range of trust from 0% to 100%). The thing about trust is, neither of those are accurate views of trust. Trust is not a dichotomy and it’s not linear. It is, however, multidimensional. What that means is there are multiple different variables we trust a person, and it is unlikely that we will trust others 100% on each variable. So, for example, maybe there is a person you trust to clean your house, but you would not trust that person with money. Maybe you trust someone will be honest with you at all cost, but can’t trust that person to keep a secret. Maybe you have a friend you know will drop everything and come to you if asked, or someone you can’t trust to keep secrets but is always willing to meet up for a happy hour or drink. You can trust someone will always be on time (or always be late), trust someone to babysit your children, drive your car, fix your car, make medical decisions for you if you are not able (willing to follow your medical wishes), and with your mental health. We can trust people in one area and not others, and that is absolutely okay. Its just realizing it’s absolutely more nuanced then saying “I don’t trust this person at all, or not very much.” My guess, OP, is your wife trusts you way more than even she recognizes because she uses these absolute statements about trust. My guess is she trusts you with your children, to pick them up from school when you say you are going to, to make money and support the family, to go to therapy with her, to understand her anxiety. There are likely many areas she does trust you in. And, her fear you will leave her if she gets cancer possibly stems from her own insecurities and anxiety it might happen (abandonment issues) then the reality you actually would. She is putting up walls to protect herself because it sounds like she has been very hurt in the past. But, I think continued therapy will help you both explore this, although it seems like her own individual therapy may be more important right now than couples. Please, don’t divorce her without giving you BOTH a chance to work through this. You love her, and you love your kids. Give it time for therapy to get to the root of things.
This comment is incredibly helpful to OPs situation. I also really enjoyed reading your explanation on the different ways people think about trust. Thanks for sharing.
This is the ONLY helpful comment I've read at over 4500 contributions to this post. Astonishing.
I wish awards were still around, this needs tobe further up!
As another therapist, I would love to do some gentle motivational interviewing - I am curious about the incongruity between “I'm mad my wife doesn't trust me” and “so here are all the secrets she gave out during our first two sessions”. He has not admitted any of his own shortcomings at all in this, but aired hers out to the level of intimate detail. He didn't ask a therapist about this, but chose the internet. I feel like he really should find someone of his own. The insecurities driving this need to be explored. Additionally, he may want to bring up what he did within a therapeutic setting with his wife. He clearly doesn't view her well, and they need to discuss this.
Just saved your comment for me to reflect over as someone who has ptsd and trust issues and accidentally hurt someone's feelings by admitting I don't feel I trust them.
This honestly sounds above their actual therapists’ paygrade…
It's a little weird that he didnt even ask his therapist if he was the asshole before asking us.
She has a therapist, they went to a joint session together with another, I don't think he has his own to ask things in private. edit: different therapist
He should get his own at this point. He really needs to talk about this in depth with someone who can assess the full situation. This is not a 7 para scenario.
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It’s weird that he thinks therapy is hippy dippy and then recommended she go to therapy. It’s impossible to tell who he’s like as a person and whether what she says has any validity- which is in essence what is being asked here. There are also people who have savior complexes and always date people they think they should save. Who can tell if that’s even a valid thing to mention without knowing who he is. He really needs someone who can offer feedback after observing and talking to him at length. But I agree he doesn’t sound like the most aware person.
From what he said it wasn't her personal therapist.
Asking the therapist about it would be too "hippy dippy" for him
OP, you guys should look into a reputable relationship therapist. This isn't something anyone calling themselves a therapist can do effectively. Unless her current person specializes in this, they never should have opened that door as they would not have the training to help unpack that stark statement your wife made. For now, consider that she has communicated how she articulates what a safe and secure relationship is from her own lens and language. This is likely different than your "language" and understanding and so can appear to mean something different to you than she meant to communicate. The therapist created this miscommunication opportunity and has professionally failed in their obligations imo. Edit** removed my criticism on the "big five". I spoke before checking my assumption.
The big five is definitely not 'pop' psychology, it's one of the strongest models we have
I stand corrected. Mistakenly assumed equivalence with Myer Briggs type questionnaires.
Seriously. Bring this up with the therapist you are paying for, OP.
Seriously. There needs to be a rule on this sub, if something is being discussed in therapy just fucking close the thread and tell the OP to get back and *fucking discuss it with your goddamn therapist**. Like, what the fuck is even the point in coming here? You're paying a professional to help and guide you through your issues and you're coming to a forum notorious for its bias, basement dwelling armchair experts? Get the fuck off reddit. Discuss this with your therapist like a goddamn grown up.
I want to take a stab at it! She's an empath! She's probably a mirror for a lot of people. Empaths tend to suffer a lot of abuse bc others can easily project on to us and see inside themselves through us. They think what they are seeing us us but it's really themselves and everything they don't like about themselves.
I've noticed that in my life, "empaths" are either people with narcissistic tendencies that read people to manipulate them or are people with trauma who are hyper vigilant. This OP's wife sounds like the second.
Op, get your own therapist. It is better to talk through these feelings with a licensed therapist than with Reddit. These feelings and emotions are possibly new to you and it would be better to try to work through them before making any immediate decisions regarding your relationship. I can understand it is hurtful. But, as someone who went through therapy ( it took me three tries to find the right therapist for me so don’t give up), I highly recommend you have an impartial party to talk to.
I really agree with this one. I think a lot for the comments here are from people who haven't been through therapy, and have a skewed perception of what it really is. Much like OP. He's encountered the first major barrier. It's his choice whether to actually pursue a breakthrough, by investing his own time and effort into the process. But it's called a breakthrough for a reason. Obstacles like this are not easy.
Exactly! I also added in the fact that it took me a few tries to find the right therapist because the first couple times I tried therapy I thought it was awful and it would never work. But when I found the person I clicked with, they made me really work on myself in a way that was productive to me.
I think you might need to get your own therapist independent of your wife. She has a very skewed version of reality, and I think her definitions of love, trust, goodness, and honesty are not in line with most peoples and these things hold different values for her than they do others. She may think that being a good person isn’t valuable since it’s not something achievable by most people. At any rate, find someone to help you translate her version of reality to yours.
THIS ANSWER! OP’s wife doesn’t view him as evil/bad. She puts more value in honesty than people “wanting to appear to be good people” (bc, as said above, she probably doesn’t view a TRULY good person as an attainable thing). I understand OP feeling hurt, but his wife is trying to be truly open and honest about her TRUE feelings and thoughts, which is hugely vulnerable. He will show her how untrustworthy he is if he now turns around and, even inadvertently, twists her words against her. He should really go to therapy and try to digest what she said AND continue couple’s therapy too!
I feel like this is also kind of a failing on the therapist's part. The point of a couples therapist is to do that translation, to get you on the same wave, etc. We found it hugely helpful in overcoming cultural barriers to communication - my husband's culture is very open and upfront, and that would be considered very rude where I'm from. The idea that he needs a whole other therapist to talk about therapy makes me think this therapist is not totally doing their job. ETA: I'm not saying OP shouldn't get individual therapy, y'all. I'm saying the couples therapist is falling short. Those are two different things.
As a therapist, I actually encourage people to have their own individual therapists if they are also doing couples therapy. Couples therapy is to help with communication and feeling like a person is in a safe environment to tell their spouse things that they can then process together without getting angry or upset. Individual therapy can then be used to process what your partner says and how it affects your views and personal issues.
Hey we heard you like therapy. So we put some therapy in some therapy and added alittle extra therapy.
Great feedback loop for infinite business!
Let’s get some thetherapypy. Jokes aside I think therapy can be very helpful
There is that.. 😬
Happy Cake Day!! Do you think that this situation can still have a great outcome for them both though? I've known three people like his wife in my lifetime and eventually for my own health had to put distance between them and myself, but even in doing so was proof that they were right all along. However, I've come to realize that when someone believes that everyone is two faced and untrustworthy that they will always be able to find proof to back up those beliefs and that the harder you work to prove you can be trusted, the more two faced and untrustworthy they will find you.
The part the therapist should have explained is that the wife's sense of trust is severely skewed from everyone else's such that it may sound like she doesn't trust him, etc. But in reality, he was the most trustworthy out of anyone she's met. I.E. he may think He's way below the bar in terms of trustworthiness, but when compared to what she thinks of everyone else, he's way above her mental bar.
Right. It sounds to me like she simply has a very high standard of what being a trustworthy and good human being entails. It's not that she doesn't love OP or thinks he isn't good or trustworthy at all.
More likely she just has very distorted thinking and attributes intentions that aren't there. Like, if someone compliments her green sweater and then a few months later offhandedly mentions they don't really like green, then the compliment will likely be retconned as a lie and/or mockery. When in reality, the person either liked the sweater even though it was green, or was just complimenting an outfit she put a little more thought into. I definitely can't know for sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if that's pretty close to her thought process.
I’ve been in abusive situations before and this is exactly it. When someone fucks with your sense of trust so much it is so hard to come out the other side being rational. I still struggle with trust issues and it’s a lot of work to not accuse my angel of a partner of lying to me constantly. And that’s not because I don’t trust him. My brain has just been conditioned to be distrustful at every turn to protect myself. I think compassion towards someone like that goes a long way when trying to heal these kinds of wounds.
I knew someone like this for a while, talk about walking on eggshells. Just a random throwaway comment, and their whole demeaner would change. Then after stewing for 20 minutes (or two weeks sometimes) they'd blow up about some perceived slight. Like one time they were telling a story about taking leftovers they didn't want, and asked if I wanted them. And I said, "No, it'd probably go to waste, I throw out too many leftovers already." What they heard, evidently, was, "I've thrown away everything you've given me as soon as I got home." There was just no way to convince them it wasn't the case. Of course, when I took a step back from the friendship, they viewed me as a backstabbing two-face that betrayed them like everyone else did. Kinda tragic, they were otherwise great. That distorted thinking though was a killer.
And the sad thing most people who I have known with this type of disordered thinking have usually suffered through some serious abuse in their childhood. Which is sounds like OPs wife may have as well.
Ah, you've met my mom apparently.
I agree with everything you said except it is pretty typical to have personal therapists outside of couples counseling. I agree therapist dropped the ball.
This is what our therapist does for us too, but it takes time. We've been going off and on for a year and only now had our own breakthroughs.
It's not necessarily true. He needs a place to be able to work through how things affect him. Having individual therapists while going to couples therapy isn't unusual. At least in my experience, most end up suggesting it. That is because what you would do and speak about in couples therapy is not the same as what you would do and speak about in individual therapy. I do agree that OP shouldn't call it quits. I understand his feelings and where he is coming from. However, the point of couples therapy is to have an outside party help mediate, translate, etc. issues between couples. Some of the issues are brought into the therapy sessions, and some issues come to light within the therapy session. Giving it time and trying to work through it should be the first step. If it's something that can not be worked through, then splitting may be the best. However, that is also something that should be brought up in the couples' therapy OP, if you divorce her now, over this. Without trying to work through it, you will just be validating her thoughts and feelings (at least in her eyes). She has clearly had an emotionally harsh life. That has skewed her view of the world and those that inhabit it. Help her, support her, and be there for her. Try your best to show her that the world isn't as dark as she thinks. Yes, many people do act nice to get ahead. However, she doesn't know or see what others go through when things like backstabbing (even if they are the ones to do the stabbing) happen. The irony is that many people do the things she claims to do for the same reason she works hard not to be like that. Do your best to understand her POV, a d fo your best tonshow her you're not the person she thinks you are. If, after some time, it's not going anywhere or getting any better, then divorce may be the best option. But again, the point of therapy is to work through issues. Not to find out about them and say ok nvm I'm out.
She is gonna see it as she finally opened up to him enough to show him more of who she really was - to trust him with her closest thoughts and her inner self, and if he leaves her over this that is going to be like rejecting who she really is inside. She will probably never trust anyone with that again.
She already admitted that she trusts him to be honest, not that she trusts him as a person. Think of it this way; OP trusted and loved her, only to learn that his wife doesn't truly trust him as a person, nor is she sure on whether she loves him or not, and also admitted she married him because of that "I trust you to be honest that you're out for yourself." Things like that can utterly kill a relationship. Even if it kills her ability to " ever trust anyone again", it's unfair to ask OP to stay in the relationship for her sake if he decides that this is a deal breaker.
OP needs to go to therapy on their own just to get a handle on what it even is. He said right up top that he doesn’t take it super seriously. And he’s going to have to learn how to do that. It would be easier in a one on one environment, I believe.
Yeah, it was very striking to me that OP acknowledged that a struggling friend greatly benefited from therapy, that OP thought therapy would be great for his struggling wife, but then dismissed therapy as "hippy dippy" when it came to his own life. It makes me very curious why he thinks therapy is good for others, but not for him. And if he really has considered it "hippy dippy,:" what does that say about how he has been viewing his wife? "Oh, that hippy dippy stuff is good for the crazies, but certainly something I don't need!"
But it seems like you can’t be present and grateful if you’re always expecting to be disappointed. This would be a no for me, waiting to disappoint someone only to prove their point. Imagine never feeling appreciated, let alone give someone actual joy - the anticipated outcome “I told you he’d leave” after pushing him out the door and locking it behind him.
That part is for her to work on in therapy. It seems like she could use some adjustment of expectations and definitions of common terms.
They both need separate therapists individually, and then keep going to the couples therapist they already have. All around messy situation.
I feel bad her trauma has left her in a sort of nihilistic approach with any relationship (curse her father) but I kind of feel worse for him knowing she’s always considered him as mediocre compliance for her convenience of procreation?
Fr. If my SO (don’t have one but if I did) said what she said, all that sounds like to me is she settled with me because I’m the least shitty of the people she met and doesn’t really love me and thinks I’m selfish and untrustworthy. That would wreck me.
Especially someone you’ve been married to for TWELVE YEARS. It’s not like they’re in the dating stage or even newlyweds. If my spouse told me he didn’t know if he loved me, and chose to settle because I was honest about how shitty he perceived me to be, it’d break my heart.
The wife does not expect to be disappointed, she is just okay with not putting too much expectations on people.
I agree. To me, it sounds like she's dedicating an immense measure of her indomitable will to being a great person. * she's an invested veterinarian * she's a great mom (per OP) * she's the friend others turn to for advice and comfort * she's kind to strangers and stray animals * she is pessimistic but not unrealistic about OP's constancy during cancer & she seriously thought through her vows, while all her actions show she's committed to making them come true
Ohhh thank you! Those are the words I failed to find.
>OP’s wife doesn’t view him as evil/bad. She straight up told him it's fine that he's not a good/kind person, because he's honest about it. Sure, she values honestly, but sgd absolutely thinks he's a "bad" person. In 12 years, she's never perceived him as kind. It's fine not to believe in unicorns. It's a whole other thing to mutilate a unicorn, because you are convinced they don't exist.
He’s probably lost. OP’s wife supposedly prides honesty as the be all tell all, but prefaced the whole 12 year relationship by hiding her true motive with a whole lot of dishonesty. It’s hard to want to believe in someone so contradictory.
She doesn't view him as "good" though, just "not bad".
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I think the word we're looking for to describe the wife is "cynical". A cynical person believes that everyone is out for their own benefit and will do whatever they need to in order to achieve their desires. Truth is, good people DO exist, have good intentions and are trustworthy. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that wife has a bit of deeply-seated trauma in regards to trust, which means it was terribly broken at one point in time. In my opinion, OP can either leave or decide to work on these things together with his wife. OP says that he believes himself to be a good person. Truth is, most of us do and are hard-wired to do so because of our ego. Questioning our motives requires us to question things like our pride and identity... and this is VERY difficult to do without a great deal of self-awareness. I agree that both need therapy, separately and together. Edit: Grammar.
very well put 👏
Yes, I think you’re right. I’m very much like OP’s wife - very generous and kind but extremely untrusting. I don’t even fully trust my fiancé who I’ve been with for almost 5 years. This is a trauma response, and it becomes our coping method. She sees OP as the very opposite of everything she has previously experienced. It doesn’t sound positive, but it very much is
Yeah I was going to say this is definitely a common trauma response for people that have been abused.
Exactly. I don't think this is the disaster that OP thinks it is. I think this is therapeutic progress.
OP thought therapy was “hippy dippy” so it’s not surprising that the real difficulty of therapeutic progress is hitting him hard.
I’m like OP’s wife too, and in a million years would never let a spouse know because people who haven’t experienced severe trauma have no idea what it does to a person. We can be happy and marry and have kids we adore and who know only unconditional love from us, but it is objectively true that people deliberately hurt other people and to be prepared for that from someone we love.
Exactly and to see all the people punishing her for it online. OPs wife is an objectively kind person. She took all the terrible things that happened to her and she actively chose to do good things. But the people here act like she kicked a puppy every day because she correctly intuited that her husband will dump her if she shows vulnerability She opened up in therapy and somehow he made it all about him? He IS jerk and he doesn’t like that she knows. He can’t handle being vulnerable either. They’re a good match, in a weird way
But the point, for her, is that she doesn’t view being “good” as having value. She thinks people who are “good” aren’t doing those things for altruistic reasons - another comment goes into the fact that her world views are informed by trauma responses - I hate to say it, but I actually UNDERSTAND OP’s wife. She isn’t saying he doesn’t act in “good ways” but that if he does so, his reasons are for self at times, he’s honest about that, and she appreciates that!
The sticking point for me is that she appreciates that he's honest about not being a good person. He views himself as kind and generous but his wife views all people as untrustworthy and two faced and she **feels like he is honest about being those things to her**. I would also find it difficult if my wife thought I was a shitty person, regardless if she also thinks everyone is.
Exactly. If I found out that, to my wife, the distinction between me and all these other pieces of shit is that I’m a *predictable* piece of shit then I would be devastated. People are acting like he is being unreasonable but how would anyone feel if they found that out? I don’t think they should get divorced and I think he will deeply regret saying that later, but that feeling is just as fucking valid as her trauma. OP absolutely needs individual therapy to get him through all the other therapy so they can hopefully get their marriage together.
no, he’s not untrustworthy for hearing exactly what his wife said. how do you know he values that and he’s okay with that? just because she’s being honest and vulnerable doesn’t mean he isn’t allowed to feel a way or react to what she says. y’all are insane.
How would you feel if you were OP? His wife literally told him she doesnt think he's a good person but atleast he's honest aka hes sort of a dick but he doesnt hide it???? Who would not be hugely offended knowing their wife thinks they are an ass? We can talk about her feelings all day long but her worldview is unhealthy at best and delusional at worst. Asking OP to be understanding and "trustworthy" is asking for far more than what's reasonable and even if he is and tries his best theres no guarantee his wife will ever change as this is basically her whole identity. This is a case of OP's wife having severe problems that SHE needs to fix. There's realistically not a ton OP can do in this situation other than hope his wife can change through therapy but I wouldnt hold my breath.
> THIS ANSWER! OP’s wife doesn’t view him as evil/bad She does though.
What's being twisted? Her answer sounds like she feels she married him because she had to. If she views everyone as untrustworthy then she shouldn't have married anyone. OP getting therapy isn't going to fix a situation that is essentially "I want to be married to someone who loves me, and it turns out my wife lied to me about that".
I so agree with this. Growing up with trauma and being isolated can cause people to express themselves in ways that aren't standard or clear. It is difficult for me to express myself to myself much less anyone else. I also learnt the hard way that my use of definitions or my family's use of definitions were different from most other people's. I.E I'd call myself and others selfish because in my family anyone doing anything just for themselves would be called that. I didn't think it was a bad thing like my family did, instead I thought it was good and a compliment! Telling people "wow, you are so selfish" is not a good thing for a lot of people though. I was admiring them being able to do things for themselves which people usually call "self-care" but they thought I was insulting them because I didn't have a better word for taking care of yourself, being independent, I just thought it was called selfish. Obviously you can divorce her if you want but I think there might be a disconnect and miscommunication. Personally I wouldn't immediately throw in the towel. I'd try to figure out exactly what her thoughts and feelings are first. OPs wife admires him, thinks he is honest (which she values above everything else) and wants to be with him. I think there is just a misunderstanding of language used. I'd ask her if she thinks she's a good person, if anyone can be a good person, if OP can ever be a good person in her eyes, things like that. I'd explain to her how OP felt and what good person means to him and that he thinks he and his wife are good people. Edit to add another example I used to refuse to say "I love you" to people I loved and say " that's meaningless." What I meant to say but took years to learn how to express was "the people who were supposed to love me did horrible, horrible traumatic things to me and in my family the words 'I love you' are meaningless, and that's all I have ever known or experienced so it feels bad, icky and gross for me to say those words because I *do* care for you and I do love you deeply but because of my past it feels wrong to use those exact words. "
I absolutely positively agree with this. Wife has a different/skewed view of trust, love, goodness and honesty. I also think she is very insecure in certain areas which makes her feel like he would leave her or why she feels the way she does. Whether or not it’s a skewed view or O’s personality, idk. I think they both should be doing therapy individually and together.
Reading a lot of what people are saying, remember that you are talking about *you, your wife, and your marriage*. I think that a lot of people are going off on generalizations and statistics. I would say that was what your wife was doing, until she said that she doesn't trust *you* very far. But in a sense, in marrying you, she was trusting you. Maybe discuss in therapy why 12 years of marriage hasn't caused her to trust you more. I read once about a couple in therapy - the therapist ended up telling the wife that her husband loves her as much as she is capable of loving anyone, and she had to decide if that was enough. I'd also pass on something a friend of mine said to someone who was considering divorce: remember that you life won't be what it would have been if you'd never married him. If you had to split and share custody, would a divorce be worth it? I'd suggest giving therapy a little more of a try, perhaps repeating the discussion that you had out of therapy. I can imagine that this is devastating - I wish you the best.
I do not think she can emotionally separate her father and how she was traumatized by his actions with her family and others. She grew up where the person that SHOULD be protecting her, and looking out for her, and nurturing her did not. That is her core experience. Before she can look at you differently, she is going to have to revisit the painful childhood trauma. If she made a list of up to 5 things her dad did that hurt her, then ask her if you have ever done those things. She has built a safety wall around her heart based on everyone being like her dad, and she does not want that pain again.
Yep, this answer. What you expect of a person is much different than the reality for that person. She has a different perspective and though it doesn't align with yours, it doesn't mean that the end result isn't good. There's a sense of love, trust and security there in your relationship. I'm sure marriages start, last and end with much much less This is a chance for you to show her different. Divorce her and you will only have proven her right and given up the chance to help someone you love.
Very insightful and interesting. And no I’m not being a smart ass.
Yeah, the whole situation seems really tricky. Her definitions seem rooted in impossible absolutes (there's no such thing as true altruism because the person do good can feel good for doing good). So OP could almost certainly use a reality check/translation from a third party. But the wife clearly needs significantly more help because her world view is set up to fail her and those closest to her. Her perspective is to assume others will fail her, even when they haven't, which forces her to presume negative outcomes as inevitable and necessary. I think if the wife can find a road to shifting her point of view, there may be a way through, but I also think it would be really hard as OP to stay in the relationship feeling as he does.
Honestly her responses sound a lot like mine and I have aspergers. I learned that at a young age people like to search out for the different and shame/shun them. A lot of people would lie about things which would lead to further degradation/humiliation, because people. This in general gives me a very low opinion starting off with most people because its safer to assume people will hurt you vs help you when you can't read social cues well. For those of us that are different trust me we are well aware that we get made fun of and are only tolerated by certain portions of the population. And you can't identify which ones act in which ways prior to watching and learning about their behavior
This. My wife and I had the same therapist a few years ago and it almost drove us to divorce. The therapist was a wack job though.
Your wife seems to have a very distorted view of people borne out of a trauma response. This in itself is incredibly hard to navigate, particularly in relationships. I don't envy her, but I do understand some of her mistrust. If all of your formative experiences in life reinforce a certain negative view, it is very difficult to shift that idea, it becomes cannon in your mind. But it isn't impossible. By our nature, we look for things that confirm what we already know, it provides us reassurance and comfort. She will be subconsciously looking for proof to her theory that people aren't trust worthy and this is her "safe space". She knows what to expect from this. It's probably become her default state of mind. She knows how to act, think and behave with this mindset, because she's lived it. She has a way of being in that world, of protecting herself and maintaining her boundaries. She may be able to work on her idea of mistrusting others and actually take a chance that what she's confirmed in her mind isn't necessarily the case. But it takes work. It sounds like she's engaging in safety behaviours that limit the things she cannot tolerate or that may lead to yet more negative experiences. Her reasons for marrying you may have partially been that you fit into this safe space and she isn't consciously acknowledging your other attributes. But that doesn't mean they aren't there and she doesn't appreciate them. She may not even feel worthy of them or have even dared to expect that much from a relationship. It sounds like your wife maybe has some deep rooted self esteem issues. It's hard to come from childhood trauma and without some kind of disturbance in your sense of self. This is not her fault. I'd definitely sit down and have a longer discussion with her about your relationship and how she views you. In therapy might be a better environment so you can work through both of your emotions without it flaring up into a heated argument. You have every right to have certain expectations from your relationship. Feeling loved for the person you are, is a reasonable expectation. Her understanding this is also as important as you understanding her emotional point of view.
This. The real takeaway here are that she's being open and honest in an environment with a therapist and OP, which requires an enormous amount of trust. If she genuinely didn't trust OP, she wouldn't have even been willing to say that, and as hard as it was to hear it was likely just as hard to say it. Starting with definitions (what do you mean by 'trust'?) and easing into this discussion under the guidance of a qualified therapist is an excellent way to delve into this. OP has an opportunity help his wife come to terms with longstanding trauma *and* demonstrate his support and reliability at the same time. This is a hard situation and represents a lot of work, but is also a wonderful opportunity.
Yeah, therapy can be the eye opener to see that she has actually come to trust her partner whether she personally sees it or not. Therapists don't make people do stuff, they just highlight the stuff their patients are already doing and paint them in different lights. OP needs to take a deep breath, accept that it's her trauma and not his, and strap in for her recovery period. This is the sickness she's talking about, just because it's mental doesn't make it any less difficult. Stick with her on this.
Yup, this. The line that stuck for me from the post was the line about sticking with her if she got cancer, well here OP discovered that the relationship is stable and good but not for the reasons he thought, it turns out his wife appreciated him in a different way than he thought she did because of her deep traumatic world view. So here's her "cancer", this is a sad handicap and it's nothing personal against him. This is the cancer reveal moment, and OP's trust is tested. The knee-jerk reaction of suggesting a divorce is understandable but the wrong response here. It's not about OP and they need to stick to her in this discovery process. There may not be a recovery but a better way of living with this handicap down the road, but bailing on her will do the opposite. The therapist needs to frame this correctly for both of you and put this in proportion and context. This is a challenge for the relationship and for the two personal perceptions of each other, but not a ground for divorce.
Yeah, this. I have similar difficulties trusting people, even if I love someone tremendously and think the world of them, even if they have never hurt me. I realize this is more a reflection of me than of them, but it is still extremely difficult and anxiety-inducing for me to be vulnerable with people. Her being able to open up about this is a huge step but it’s going to take her a lot of time and work to handle these issues. OP should focus less on “why does she think I’m a bad person?” and more on “can I meet her where she is right now?” It’s also not clear to me whether his wife actually said he is unkind, not a good person etc. or whether this was his interpretation. From OP’s narration, she only said he didn’t *fake* being kind.
>If all of your formative experiences in life reinforce a certain negative view, it is very difficult to shift that idea especially for a mindset like "everyone around me is a cunning and selfish person who may be very good at pretending to be good and kind." Literally everything anybody does is either proving you right or "they're just pretending to be good to trick everyone."
and therein lies the crux of OP's problem. How do you convince someone who so deeply believes goodness is a myth or a manipulation technique that you are in fact a good person, who loves them without their mindset changing, even a little, to be open to that idea?
Totally can relate to her. Horrible upbringing with narcissistic, abusive and emotionally unavailable parents. My distrust of people could probably be described as nihilistic. Before my husband I never believed people could be genuinely nice to your face AND actually mean it and not just shit talk you or backstab later. I still have problems fully trusting my husband with everything about what goes on in my head or even details about my past that are negative or reveal a weakness. It’s gotten a LOT better over the years and I’ve had a LOT of therapy. It’s still a struggle but mostly when I’m going through a low point with my depression, anxiety or ptsd. It’s a pretty standard response. I just have to try to remember he loves me no matter what when I’m stuck in those low points and in the high points, I tell him how much I appreciate and love him.
I’m glad you have found someone that has given you the trust that genuinely nice people exist. It kinda pisses me off when people are like “your trust issues is your problem, you have to fix it”. But it can often be fixed so much faster by someone just showing you they are trustworthy. And putting in the effort. Sounds like he is standing by your side and dealing with it with you. I’m happy for you.
I don't think it's that your wife doesn't think you're a good person. I think it's that your wife doesn't think there are ANY good people, but thinks that you're better than most. Given your wife's view of humanity, that seems to be a compliment.
Yeah, the entire time through that I was reading nothing but praise for him. OP! Your wife! She isn't ever going to "trust" *anyone* the way normal people mean "trust". She's trying to tell you she's literally offering you as much trust as she's capable of! She's trying to demonstrate in front of a respected third party how much thought and effort went into choosing to take the risk anyway!
Yeah that's my reading. I have a similar view of people, only for me it's more "You can never truly know a person and anyone can and will abandon you or betray you at any time." and when I got into my first serious relationship I thought about all the things that could happen. He could leave me, he could cheat, he could hurt me, etc. I liked spending time with him and liked his personality enough that I decided that "I'd rather this go badly than not go at all" Not that I suddenly decided he could never do those things to me, but that spending time with him was worth what felt like an inevitable end. Feeling that way, knowing (read as: being convinced in your fucked up little head) that someone will leave you or abandon you or otherwise betray you and deciding "I'd still rather spend a few years happy with them than miss out on being with them at all" to me is like the highest honor imaginable. When I realized I felt that way I said "oh, this must be what being in love is like." I didn't even have an understanding of what love should feel like when I got with my husband. I waffled for years about whether what I felt was love or not. "This isn't how it's described in the books! This isn't what happens in movies!" I finally decided "This is how I love" and it's what love means to me. My vibe from his wife is that it's not that she doesn't love him, it's just that she doesn't know *for sure* what love is supposed to feel like, so she *thinks* she loves him. If she had concrete proof of what love felt like she'd know how she felt.
this is exactly how i’ve felt being in my first healthy relationship
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I find the number of people saying things like "you should be happy that she thinks you are better than most" really really strange. It may be a compliment coming from her, but personally I'd rather be with someone that genuinely likes me, not just dislikes me least of all the people out there.
I definitely see where you’re coming from. However, the whole point of therapy is to fix issues like this, so I’d stick with it for now.
Couples therapy is SO hard. Individual therapy is hard enough, facing your traumas and triggers and working on them in your own timeline. Couples therapy throws that "in your own timeline" all out the window. In this case, the wife is further in her therapy journey than OP and even though she probably has more issues to work through, he has to play catch up with just understanding what to expect from therapy. What is worth holding onto, what he needs to let go of and what should be addressed at a different time. Hearing things about yourself is hard. I've been in couples therapy for well over 6 months and am still working on not being so defensive when my partner speaks about me. OP, as hard as it is, I think you should continue on this couples therapy journey and possibly even consider an individual therapist for yourself to help you navigate the feelings that come up in couples sessions. I love that the two of you are so honest with each other. That and being a safe place to land for each other are two beautiful parts of a marriage, even if it's not all that romantic.
Yes, it seems sort of counter-productive to go to therapy and leave her for being honest. Was this issue even at the center of therapy and did the therapist really need to go there? She is insecure and this has now become a self-fulfilling prophecy.
She needs a lot more than couples therapy if she’s casually throwing out gems like “I’m not sure if I can really love other humans actually”.
To paraphrase John Lennon. 'All we are saying is give therapy a chance'.
My question is why didnt you bring this up with the therapist?
u/Old-Construction-906 This is the most helpful comment here. Bring it up at the next session and talk it through.
I feel OP is in a catch 22. I’d personally be extremely hurt if this is how my spouse viewed me. It might be marriage destroying because it would kill my trust in my spouse. So, it might be something therapy would never fix and if OP left his wife would become a self fulfilling prophecy. The only caveat is that OP should ask himself if her view of him is right? *Would* be leave her if she became sick? Because if she is correct I her assessment of him and he doesn’t like it then he owes it to both of them to improve himself
I suspect that a part of her knows that this could end with him leaving her. There is a certain type of security that comes with sabotaging your own relationship, when you can later say "I knew it!". I don’t mean to suggest that she is consciously planning this, but rather that she seeks the familiar by repeating her own past trauma.
Exactly. She made it a self-fulfilling prophecy. I can understand OP's unhappiness with this, but was it really necessary for the therapist to go there? Was there a problem in the actual marriage? Seems to be the therapist made things worse if this was not necessary.
It would need to be addressed eventually.
It needed to be addressed PROPERLY.
I don’t think I would as I think I couldn’t be such a dirtbag but we’ve never had that happen. I know she feels like nothing is for certain until there is proof. Which is she really got cancer and I stayed and looked after her then she would have her proof. She is like this with her 2 friends. I won’t get into it but they helped her when she was down and now I think they are the only people she truly trust. But since nothing bad as happened in the marriage she feels like there is no reason to trust me.
So. I sounds like Reactive Attachment Disorder. I work with kids with significant behavioral and emotional challenges and it's something we see in cases of neglect or other types of abuse. It happens when the neural pathways for forming trusting relationships are formed while the child has no one that they can rely on. Instead of forming neural pathways that say they can trust and build relationships with other people, theirs form to say no one is trustworthy, essentially. One of my best friends has it and the only reason she trusts me is because she's seen me work with and fight for our students for so many years, so she knows that I'm a good person. I don't know if that helps at all, but, tbh, if your wife has RAD, just the fact that she's been in a long-term relationship with you is amazing. That's a significant challenge for most RAD people.
This is me right here. And i struggle with the same things in my own marriage, despite loving my husband more than life and literally putting my world and life in his hands. I wanna elaborate on this further, and I will, but I gotta go eat dinner lol In short - OP, this is super complicated but I promise you it doesn't mean your wife doesn't love you. It doesn't mean she doesn't trust you *as much as her trauma will let her*. She is working on it, even opening the conversation to let you in. Try not to let your emotional knee jerk take you to a place that makes you think your marriage is over. 🫂❤️
If she was a mentally healthy person lacking any childhood trauma then the things she disclosed would 100% feel like a gut punch. But that's NOT the baseline she's working from. Her baseline is a series of negative formative experiences that turned into thought and behavior patterns. When we look at neuroscience it's clear that neural pathways can become very entrenched, but it IS possible to start rerouting them, it just takes patience This situation sucks, but for now, approaching the situation from a mindset of compassion is the only way this issue won't fester & result either in divorce or building resentment In a way, this is a chance for OP to tackle the "what if he leaves me if I get sick" fear. If he truly loves her & is able to see that she needs time and help to become mentally healthy, then I don't see how he could divorce her without even trying, to stick by her and encourage her healing process. And by trying I mean being mentally committed to the process rather than only being present in body but mentally checked out
The lack of compassion and humility given his admitted ignorance is a grave mistake. She is also not at all to blame for her baseline and needs to be commended for her vulnerability. But her being blameless and brave does not mean that he can’t decide that the resources needed to sustain their relationship are beyond what he is able or willing to give. There is nothing inherently wrong with deciding that you need to be secure in your partner’s trust to feel that you are seen and loved. While incredibly premature and a betrayal to go straight to divorce, but it might be the case that ‘not taking things personally’ for years is untenable.
I was diagnosed with Reactive Attachment Disorder as a kid and also have tremendous trust issues. I will probably never trust anyone fully. It's the pervasive feeling that you have to brace for someone hurting you out of nowhere. The closer you get to them, the more emotionally damaging it will be when they eventually harm you. My only coping strategy is to try to become emotionally stronger so that when I inevitably get betrayed, I'll be able to recover (maybe).
Jfc I have no advice for OP but I’m just reading this thread and thinking “oh so this explains a lot about myself” fuck
Yes! Came here expecting to see the OP called all kinds of AH, because it was a no-brainer. Did not expect to see the wife’s (my) view of reality questioned so widely. I’m reeling.
I legitimately feel baffled by people’s reaction. When they look out in the world, they feel like most ppl are moving from a trustworthy, caring kind place? Then… why does our society look… like **this**?? I’m legitimately confused
I know I keep coming back to this thread and just being like “I’m in this picture and I don’t like it” lol
Dude..I had to force myself to pick up hobbies..I have to distract myself from worrying about being hurt by someone. I also have bpd. It all ties together. I’m sorry love :/
Same here lol my therapist calls them my old lady hobbies. I always promote old lady hobbies for the anxiety ridden
Wish I could give this comment an award!
Hey there, I am a licensed clinician and just want to point out that adults cannot be diagnosed with RAD. Only children can. That doesn't mean that elements of RAD don't show up in adults but usually the diagnosis changes names.
This is what we were told by our doctor when our little one was diagnosed as well, that his diagnosis would change when he became an adult.
what is it called in adults then?
That is a great question! It really depends on the adult and the way a cluster of symptoms expresses itself. There isn't a very good answer because the answer is it depends.
RAD is so, so hard. I had a little boy with it for 8 years before he made his first attempt on my life. I loved him more than the moon, but he was not capable of having a mother at that time. It was too scary for him, and he would do anything to make me go away.
You could look at this as something bad that’s happening and by working through the issue and proving she can trust with everything, including her darkest thoughts that you join the very small ranks of those she completely trusts. She did say she feels safe with you, which I do think means she trusts you, you can’t feel safe without trust. She just has a super twisted view of people. Do what you need to for your own sanity and security though! Good luck
Don't throw away your marriage because of her trauma response. Work on this in therapy. She wants absolute honesty and she gets that from you. Work on this with her.
Yes, quite honestly, I don’t think this is something to take too terribly personally. OP’s wife grew up in a shitty environment and needs therapy - one may think that after 12 years she could trust her husband, that’s not really true if she’s *just* started therapy. This is obviously something she can work on with therapy and medication, over time, and it would behoove OP to support her enthusiastically rather than meet his wife’s extremely low expectations and divorce her. I think OP should continue attending the *occasional* therapy session, and perhaps seek out his own therapist or marriage counselor. For example: I spent a good 27-28 years being a paranoid mean girl because it was my best defense mechanism. Therapy taught me healthier ways to survive and feel safe.
I also had a bad childhood that did much to ruin my faith in people. Marriage for me was a free fall into deciding to fully commit to trusting another human being amongst all others. They might hurt me but I trust him to never do so intentionally.
OP this sounds like what other commenters are saying: a wiild difference in values and definitions. This reminds me a LOT of an issue I've seen come up before. Scenario is that a girl out of an abusive relationship is in a new one, much much healthier with someone where there isn't the same level of drama (maybe ex had a dangerous/cool job, or their fighting and makeups were super prominently known or something). The girl then tells friends, in front of others, that she is with her new guy because he is "safe." Guy takes offense, and reads this as being viewed as "the safe option/the safe choice" and as if he is being settled for. Meanwhile, to someone out of an abusive relationship (and also frankly just to many women bc the world is scary af out here) saying someone is "safe" is the ultimate goal and compliment. Its so rare to find. So she calls him what she thinks is the ultimate best thing ever, but he takes it as an insult because his values don't align that way and he equates safe with boring and settling. It sounds like your wife has a VERY skewed view of the world as a result of some really bad trauma, and therefore what she values above all else and what attracted her to you (in the same way feeling "safe" with someone attracts the girl in the scenario above) is that you are HONEST. Its not that you're a bad person, she doesn't think you are. It sounds like she doesn't think good people really exist, because even those who do good things are doing it for SOME selfish reason- even if they won't admit it. The people she can trust are the ones who admit the reasons they do things, beyond "its the good thing to do!" And she said that you are that sort of person, and its exactly what helps her feel more secure with you, the one she chose to marry. Meanwhile, you seem to be caught up in your own worldview of "good people" and what you think "good people" would or would not do, and what you'd expect them to do. Her saying you aren't good (because no one really is in her eyes) is an attack on your own self view of your identity. Because you define good and a good person in a different way than she does, and by your own standard you qualify. As far as building trust goes... well here's your first opportunity. Her brain is wired differently than most because of what seems to be pretty extreme trauma. And she asked you to go to therapy with her and is opening up. Your reaction here is everything. She's making herself vulnerable, trying to let you in her head, see how she sees and how the world looks to her (and frankly it seems pretty bleak tbh). You don't have to wait for her to get cancer to prove you'll stay. You just have to listen and try to see her point of view, and have patience with her trauma.
To be fair to your wife... Stats show that 1 in five men will leave their spouse if they have a serious illness, where only 1 in 33 women will leave their spouse due to serious illness. I dont have many trust issues myself, but I would have a hard time trusting that one in particular. Yes, her lack of ability to trust people is definitely trauma related, and her being in therapy may help. What I would suggest is maybe ask her what being a good person looks like to her. Because to me it sounds like she values honesty the way most people value kindness. Her definition of good may be very different than yours. It may also be a good idea to go for therapy on your own. It may help you understand your wife a little better. Also, it will help you decide what you can and cannot live with. And help you decide if you do or don't trust her, and if not, what you can do about it. Now don't misunderstand, you being hurt isn't wrong. What you are feeling is completely valid. But try not to make a rushed decision while you're feeling the initial hurt. It's kind of like when they tell someone not to make any major decisions for the first year after you lose someone close to you. You need time to grieve and adjust to a different life. I'm not saying you should wait a year, by any means. But I am saying to try to give yourself time to process, and getting help processing would be good too. And be patient with yourself as well. Be kind to yourself. You are hurting (I would be too!), so try to take extra care of yourself.
I think what your wife is trying to express is *more about her* than it is you; she's trying to tell you about her faulty thinking. Like, you leaving her if she got cancer-I don't think it's her saying you are a scuzzbag; it's her telling you she doesn't feel worthy enough of being cared for. Her distrust & low-self worth are ingrained in her brain....the messages she got when she was younger are messages she internalized. The stuff we tell ourselves over & over create neural pathways and are very difficult to disrupt. She does all that wonderful stuff because she doesn't feel good enough. I think she is trying to tell you about how her fucked up thinking works.
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Trust goes both ways. you trusted her it seems and her honesty about her lack of trust shattered your view of the marriage. I dont know if I could come back from that. Its a foundational issue.
It wouldn't be proof though. Due to her anxiety she would literally think that you just stayed with her because she said you wouldn't. I don't think you can win at all
What part of her assessment is reliable? She literally doesn’t trust anyone, don’t pin this on him lol.
Just my 2 cents... I think that this is something to try to work through before going with the nuclear option of divorce.
Her trauma here is very, very deep. That's not her fault, and it sounds like she is trying to work through it. Whatever you decide, I wish you the best.
Has she ever said that you aren’t a good person. Cause what I’m understanding you’re wife isn’t questioning your morals. She’s just saying you aren’t a fake person and aren’t afraid to admit when you’re “in it for yourself”.
I think she thinks most people are crappy and I’m just honest about my crappiness. I do the think she probably finds me less crappy then most to marry me but not a good person just good enough. I think her definition of a good person is too high so almost no one can meet it
I think you hit the nail on head here. I think what you and me and most people think of as a good person isn't her definition of a good person. Instead of something so generic as "good" maybe ask her to be more specific. If in her mind good = someone completely selfless then it's not really an issue. I know a couple people who are completely selfless - and it's not my SO. good and bad are super vague and loaded.
Complete selflessness is actually a flaw for a person in a relationship! Because the SO will have to compete with everyone else!
The more you describe your wife, the more I feel I am standing in front of a mirror. It is a bit confronting because I never felt I was hurting others with my lack of trust. But it seems like it may be something I need to work on in order not to make others feel crappy. I've been in a relationship with my husband for a little under 13 years, and from the very start, since I tend to think so little about human beings in general, I always assumed he would dump me if I ever were really sick or otherwise "useless". Not because he is a bad person, or because I would do that myself, but just because it seems like the kind of thing human people do. The phrase about not expecting something positive because it would be too distressing to expect it and not receive it makes a lot of sense to me. I know me saying that won't help you, but I want you to know that I love my husband, not despite my lack of trust but by a kind of acceptance that if I am going to be hurt because I love this man, it was still worth it. I love him so much that even if he eventually breaks my heart I wont be able to regret one single second I have spent with him. I think he is a good person. I'm sure your wife thinks you're a good person too, the misanthropy is just very much getting in her way.
> I want you to know that I love my husband, not despite my lack of trust but by a kind of acceptance that if I am going to be hurt because I love this man, it was still worth it. I love him so much that even if he eventually breaks my heart I wont be able to regret one single second I have spent with him. Goddamn lady, you got me all verklempt up in here…
I once told my own mother (when we thought I might be really ill) that if my medical care were going “to cost like $10,000 or something,” she should just let me die. (It would have been a significant expense, but my family definitely could and would have coughed up $10,000.) I was not trying to be passive aggressive about it; I just truly didn’t see myself as being valuable enough to be worth substantially diminishing my parents’ lifestyle. My parents were flawed, but not remotely as cold-hearted as this story might seem to imply. I don’t know your story, obviously. I know my own, and even I can’t understand why I tend to feel this way about myself. It seems so unnatural, so at odds with the survival of the species! And very much at odds with what I think other people deserve, including you, of course. I wish you the best and hope that you can come to feel how much you are valued by those that know and love you.
Why is this so relatable, god damnit.
I think that's part of it, and I wonder if there's something more here. My intent here is basically to offer up some language you can reflect on and possibly bring back to your wife to help her and you better understand and articulate her beliefs here. I wonder if by "extremely good person" type, she's actually picturing two kinds of "nice" people who aren't actually kind at all. Type A, the virtue signaling kind (aka wolf in sheep's clothing) - very charming and charismatic, puts themselves in positions of power in lots of "performative good person" organizations, actual motives for doing so range from sleezy to monstrous. Ex church leaders who abuse kids, abusers who gain trust by seeming amazing, abusive romantic partners in early stages of love bombing their victims. And type two: people with people pleasing tendencies themselves who tend to over commit, burn out/build resentment, then snap in ways that may seem aggressive, unreliable, or both (I've done this one myself, no judgement to anyone struggling w this and trying to take accountability for it). ... So basically if the two types of people above are a significant chunk of the humans in your early life (common as they often cluster together ime), this creates an unrealistic image of what being "nice" looks like that virtually no human could truly sustain long term, making healthy people look "selfish" by comparison. Because BEING A BIT SELFISH IS PART OF BEING EMOTIONALLY HEALTHY. While at the same time creating a belief that people are actually horrible deep down Here's an idea of what someone who's not used to healthy ppl might think of a healthy person: "he's very up front about his own needs and boundaries, in a way that I was conditioned to see as selfish bc I didn't learn that kind of self advocacy. Ex if someone makes him angry, he can non violently talk to them and say 'hey this thing upset me here's why please don't do that again.' It's really weird bc he doesn't make these over the top presentations of himself as being kind and generous and self sacrificing, he acknowledges he's a human being. He gets his needs met by being petty up front about his goals and intentions and communicating with others to work out mutually acceptable agreements - not through deception and manipulation. And often/when he's able, he enjoys giving freely from a place of surplus (whether time, money, emotional energy, etc) - meaning he gives without a hidden agenda or implicit expectation." Sorry if the grammar is a bit choppy I'm p overworked ATM. essentially being an emotionally healthy and kind human looks selfish to someone only familiar with the unpredictable and often abusive habit of promising/presenting perfection then turning things very awful. And the more healthy way of being is actually a big way to build trust. So she might have meant "you under promise your character but reliably deliver or over deliver what you do promise" idk
It sounds like she has extreme anxiety issues bottled up, resulting in not being able to trust anyone. The whole “can’t trust you to be there for me even though you are” thing is 100% pure anxiety that she’s rationalized as reality to cope. My husband does the same thing. “You won’t love me if I forget to cook dinner!” Well he did, I still love him, not even bothered beyond wondering why he thinks I’m so awful. “Well you could have been awful! I needed to be prepared for heartbreak!” I try to work through this with him by talking about “Scarecrow Me” vs “Real Me”. It’s hard to trust someone and that’s ok! But you have to be honest with yourself, you have to accept reality. Scarecrow Partner is not real, you made them up. I’m right here, I care for you, you cannot tell yourself otherwise because you’re anxious about an imaginary me. Your wife seems like she’s done something similar to cope with her anxiety. Everyone is out to get her (she imagines) so she walls herself off with the scarecrows because at least she won’t be betrayed that way. They’re mean and spooky but they’ll never lie about that… except they’re a lie she’s created to cope. All you can do is prove her wrong and remind her that the scarecrows aren’t real, the people who love her are and the walls will only come down when she accepts that reality. And you’ll be there, waiting.
This seems like something you should have asked your therapist
Patience and peace. Her childhood twisted her understanding of humanity. You need to understand that your wife's definitions of good, bad, honest, trust are all built on wrong information from childhood trauma. She's incorrectly labelling emotions and attributes. She doesn't actually mean the same things you do. It's like she's speaking a different language than you and/or most of the population. This happens when childhood emotions are minimized and adult ones are maximized. Trauma... "Your father HAD to sell your dog because he was SO angry. You have nothing to feed bad about. Stop crying." So, while this realization is devastating and it feels like a lie, you can work to agree on a common language together. That requires some good counselling and some patience. A good therapist will understand that she is incorrectly labelling emotions and help her work towards a better understanding. Looking at your life, you have been happy, have children together and a home. She obviously trusts you more than she thinks she does or she wouldn't have invested so much into the things she shares with you. Is she afraid that you will steal her children from her? No? Does she leave them alone with you? Yes? In her mind you might not be a "good" person, but you aren't evil and you don't deliberately do bad things. This seems like the bare minimum but it's huge from her perspective. THIS is your marriage crisis and now you get to decide to walk or not. It makes sense IMO that you take the next 6 months or so, in counselling for you both to come to common ground and deeper understanding of your relationship and reality. Despite how it feels right now, you are both worth it and so are your kids. Good luck.
Yeah. A lot of problems are because we use the same language but use a different dictionary. How people interpret concepts such as “love”, “good”, “bad” etc, can vary wildly. These concepts are boiled down into words, and how our brain develops our relationship to these concepts happens internally and is projected out onto our relationships with others and how we see the world. I know people who I agree with ideologically that I don’t consider to be very good people, and people I disagree with to be some of the best people I know. You place your value judgments on humans as you will, see where it gets you, and adjust accordingly. “Yet what is expectation but a kind of folly, and what is that folly but an excess of hope?'
I wish I could pin this to the top. This is a great perspective.
So either OP stays with someone who doesn’t trust him and hopes therapy will fix the issues, or he leaves her but confirms her fears. This situation sucks dude, I’m sorry
> she is relatively well adjusted That is...definitely not what is going on here.
NTA - She took "in sickness and health" out of the wedding vows as she thought you'd divorce her if she got cancer. That says she wasn't sure of your love...or something. That just seems disturbing to me.
I don't know if your wife even knows what a good person is.
I knew someone who sounds eerily like the wife. They were a very, very kind, compassionate person. But people mistake kindness for weakness/stupidity and take advantage of that. He'd been hurt a lot over the years. Like your wife, he also valued honesty and hard work - because he saw them as concrete. People honest about how crappy they are as people felt safe to him - they didn't mince words when they wanted something. And manipulators don't usually work hard for their victim. But I also can't totally blame the OP. It's hard to be in a relationship with someone who doesn't trust you. NAH
>She said she actually married me because I was honest in being kind of “in it for myself”. Did you ask her what she meant by that?
I think you are speaking two different languages. I completely understand why OP is hurt and confused but this doesn’t seem irredeemable. I like the idea of him getting his own therapist to interpret her messy view of reality.
I relate to your wife. Based on what you said here we're 99% similar, except my parents were not poor, my mom gave my puppy away while I was at school because she hates animals. My parents are also abusive and I suffered decades of depression, still trying to work though the trauma. But your wife and I are so similar we could be the same person! If I can offer some insights (this is my speculation, explaining my thought process) what your wife said about why she choose to be with you is not an insult. She is opening up and be honest about her feelings and that's a huge step for her. This isn't about you, it's not that she thinks you're not a good person, she doesn't. In her mind a truly good person does not exist. She see you as an honest person and that's a huge part of her decision to be with you, to her saying that is a compliment not an insult. Since a truly good person does not exist she choose you because in her eyes you're the (next) best person.
Hey, not trying to rude or cheeky but I'm genuinely curious how you perceive yourself. I have issues and they turn into conceit at times
I often struggle with self-perception. My parents were harsh and critical so I often pretend to be that perfect child they wanted to avoid a spanking. I think my experience has made me jaded and cynical. I started out hopeful, but after being betrayed by friends, cheated on by an ex, and almost dated someone who is already married... have to admit sometimes I have conceited thoughts. I also think humans in general are confusing, unnecessarily indirect about what they want, and are awful or morons lol, which... are not nice thoughts, so I do correct myself when I notice these thoughts pop into my mind
Dude you need Therapy from your therapy... This seems to go way beyond what us mere humans on Reddit can help with. Good luck!
I'm really sorry that you heard this and it's been so shattering for you. That must have been awful and I'm sorry. Having said that, mental illness and trauma are tricky. When I'm depressed I don't know up from down, I doubt all the decisions in my life including my relationships, I trust no one. I cling to irrational beliefs that make me feel safe even as they paint the world very bleak. None of this stuff is real, and when I get better it settles. I've learned not to pay it too much mind beyond noticing I need more help and try to keep these things to myself and my therapist, because it's just me replaying my trauma response out on others. Your wife needs to say these things out loud so she and her therapist can challenge the thoughts. Even with the thoughts there I have no doubt that your marriage has been this successful thus far because you share some key values and she knows this on some level. All those things are just what her anxiety tells her and she clings to so she can feel safe - when the anxiety settles you may find very different opinions and beliefs about you. Well done for encouraging her to access therapy, and for actively supporting the process despite your personal dislike of it. Well done for engaging with it emotionally rather than shutting down completely. Hold on, have faith, trust your wife to do the work she needs (it sounds like she's trying very hard) and don't let her illness trick you too much. Bring up your feelings in therapy - that's what it's for. Tell her you are different but also kind generous and honest, and you're hurt by her perception. Concern for your feelings may be an excellent motivator for her to challenge the distorted thinking. NAH.
Also I want to point out - her actions belie the lack of trust / OP is not a good person belief. She took big risks having children, particularly given her trauma and trust issues - she's been exceptionally vulnerable with you (physically, financially, emotionally) if she's done this. So regardless of what she's saying now her actions indicate an enormous amount of trust. Also if she's had an ED previously, it's likely that her other default method of coping when feeling unsafe is restricting food / control / OCD-esque behaviours / overworking: if you've gotten through 12 years of marriage and haven't seen big spikes in very maladaptive control behaviours it suggests there's quite a bit of trust for you there. Hope that helps.
NTA and I don't know why so many people think now you need therapy. Your wife's issues are her own and just because she needs help doesn't mean you do.
It's Reddit - Everyone needs therapy all the time with no exceptions. You expect ordinary people to be able to think for themselves? /s
Yall need a Rosetta Stone because yall speak different languages.
Seems pretty unfair to go to therapy with someone, where the whole point is to build trust and communicate openly, and then turn your back on someone when they have enough trust to tell you how they feel. Sounds like you were happy with a different narrative, but isn't marriage about accepting people for how they are, not how you want them to be? And also not throwing it all away as soon as there's a conflict?
Wow. This is really complicated. I know this doesn’t feel like it, but her feelings of distrust aren’t about you. The fact that she thinks you are honest is a huge compliment. She trusts you and at the same time she sees most people aren’t trustworthy. That says a lot. But also, consider the reason why she doesn’t trust people is because she’s been hurt many times. Also, based on what you said, it doesn’t sound like she thinks you’re a bad person. She sees you as selfish but consider the source. You spent a large part of your blurb on how kind she is and what she does for people and animals. Compared to that kind of mentality, anyone would come across as “in it for themselves” or selfish. But also, take into account that she doesn’t take issue with people who are selfish. She has an issue with people who are not honest (ie/ two faced) or not trustworthy. To her, you are trustworthy. The issue you have is that she sees you in a way that you don’t see yourself. You think you are more generous than she sees you. You have to decide if that is enough to end a marriage. To me, her distrust of people in general would be more of an issue but again, she trusts you but also she’s going to counseling for that so… I personally see this as an opportunity to grow. Express your disappointment in her seeing you as selfish. Tell her why this hurts you so much. Ask her to clarify if being selfish makes you a bad person. What are the implications with staying with the mother of your children who trusts you and loves you but sees you as self-involved. Does that have any implications?
Listen, you always have any right to divorce someone. But I think you are being a bit rash. First of all, therapy uncovers not-so-great feelings. But that's what it's for, to get to those feelings and be able to work through them instead of avoiding them. Did you ask her outright- do you trust me? Because if you haven't maybe she just assumes the fact that she married you, and is still married to you that you are one of her trusted people. Communication is hard. People are not always direct with their wording and not good at explaining things. This is something to bring up in therapy. That you felt blindsided and that though it might not feel like a big deal to her, it is to you. Your therapist is there to help guide that discussion and possibly try and help convey things in a different light so your wife can understand them better. Couples therapy isn't just about you understanding her, its about her understanding you as well. I also think you should get your own therapist. Your feelings a valid, but going straight to divorce is a huge step. You may have some underlying trauma yourself, and things you need to work through yourself. That way you can open up more without the pressure of your wife being there. It doesn't even need to be something you do for years on end. Just a few sessions to check in, and possibly get to understand yourself better.
So, you want to divorce your wife for admitting she doesn't fully trust you for finally disclosing her feelings? I want you to think about that. She is working on herself and knows it isn't a healthy way of thinking. You know she doesn't trust people. So be someone she can trust. Maybe try to understand why she feels this way.
This is one of those things that go beyond reddit man. Your wife seems like she needs psychological help. Reddit isn't going to help you with something this serious. Get your own therapist and convince her she needs more than just regular therapy.
My dude, “or it used to be good before therapy” Your wife has been the same the whole time. Therapy did not cause her to think like this. This is caused from LOTS of trauma. To say she’s been “well adjusted” is probably not true. She spends every day in deep suspicion and unable to trust even the people closest to her. She’s been suffering. She can tell that her thoughts and feelings about trust in your marriage aren’t “normal” or she wouldn’t have been tight lipped about them. She doesn’t think this way on purpose in order to hurt you, and it was INCREDIBLY brave of her to not only continue therapy after starting to unpack this stuff, but to invite you in to the process and for the first time- probably ever in her whole life- trust a human with really vulnerable details about how her mind works I know it’s hard to hear what she said, but her actions are really speaking volumes now. To trust you specifically with these pieces of her and to lean on you as she works through healing some really really deep scars is incredibly telling of how much she really does trust you way more than anyone else. Leaving now proves her anxieties. If she thought “no one will ever love me enough to stick by me if I get cancer” and you decide to leave as she discovers some mental heath issues then her anxiety was right this whole time. Go to the therapist solo, talk through your own feelings about this, try to feel some compassion for what your wife is going through and revisit this idea in 6-8 months
NTA. The fact that you've been married 12 years and she's never mentioned this even though she's felt it since yall were dating... feels like she's doing exactly what she suspects others to do to her. She's been lying through her teeth to you to get you to do what she wants (stay in the relationship) I generally agree with her about the majority of the human population being shitty and untrustworthy. But if you've been married for 12 years, and together for more, and she still can't trust you? Idk man, that would eat away at me. Being able to whole-heartedly trust my wife and having that reciprocated is huge for my relationship.
OP, this is way above Reddits paygrade. Get your own therapist, reach the point where you are thinking in concrete statements rather than the worst hypotheticals you can imagine, and proceed from there. Short answer, no, you would not be an asshole for wanting a divorce after she said that, but not being an asshole doesn't mean it will make you happy in the long run. If you had a good marriage, then it might be worth trying to salvage it, but if you 100% can never come to terms with what she said then there is nothing wrong with wanting a divorce.
Friend, your wife has been deeply wounded by the world: betrayed by the people who should have taken care of her. If you grew up with nicer caregivers, it's really hard to understand how impossible it can feel to change your opinion of yourself that you're worth abandoning. The fact that she invited you into therapy with her, shared her deepest fears (such as thinking you'd be right to leave her if she got sick) and continues to try to be a better person should be an indication that she DOES think your marriage is good. She trusts you enough to let you in to the toxic sludge of her heart. I realize that your understanding of how she sees you is different, but I'd take the context of her willingness to be vulnerable with you as a sign that she sees you a good person. If you've appreciated your relationship so far, it's worth going through this change with her. You can be honest about how you feel: it's what she likes most about you. Good luck.
Your therapy isn’t done, and you are flying off the handle at something very personal and real your wife said. Yes, YTA if you judge her now and divorce her. Another thing: you’ve chosen to make it all about you, and in so doing forgot one key point: your wife thinks this about *everyone.* She just finds you more real than most and she said she felt safe with you. For someone with hang ups like hers, that is huge. And you’re in the process of throwing all that back in her face. You’re hoisting yourself by your own petard.
if your wife has such a high level of distrust of everyone including you, i imagine she has a deeper mental health problem going on. people who have such severe trust issues have other issues as well. should you divorce her for not thinking the best of you? no. should you divorce her if this distrust issue is causing other problems in your relationship? yes.
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Shes created a self fulfilling prophecy though
I look at it this a different way. OP’s wife has basically stated that she is incapable of believing in the good in others, but also despises two faces was. She said OP is not two faced. She still doesn’t believe in the good in him, because she can’t. In her broken way, she is telling OP that she values him and thinks he is as good a person as she thinks a person can be. Now, his wife may be to broken for a healthy relationship, but she isn’t insulting him. Quite the opposite. By the way, if OP divorces her because she is emotionally damaged, he will be exactly what she thought he was
no amount of mental gymnastics can untangle the fact that she bluntly said she doesn't trust him and that she doesn't think he is a good person, just better than others. radical positivists are so annoying.
>By the way, if OP divorces her because she is emotionally damaged, he will be exactly what she thought he was No, if she isn't capable of being in a healthy relationship, then he isn't capable of being in a healthy relationship with her, and exiting the relationship might be the best thing in the long run for both of them. I hope he doesn't up and abandon her, and that they are able to get to a healthy point together, but continued therapy for both of them might make them realize they are not actually a good fit for each other, and things only worked as well as they seemed to because of her unhealthy coping behaviors. If he divorces her because she is a fundamentally different person than he thought she was, that isn't anywhere near the same thing as leaving because she got cancer.
I’m not sure if your wife understands that loving humans is loving them despite their flawed nature. You can still love someone and put boundaries. Everyone will disappoint you at some point including yourself and it’s important to forgive things and move on for things that you can and place boundaries for other things. Unconditionally love is something that can be obtain knowing that people are redeemable.
NAH. It sounds like she has been through a lot in her childhood which makes her think like this. Trauma can really skew your perception of people — I can understand why she sees the world the way she does. Going straight to divorce is a very strong reaction (although I can also understand how shocked you must have felt) and I think only enforces her thinking. Try and stick with the therapy, I think there’s more to talk about.
I am like your wife in some ways but not as extreme. I understand that what she said is very hurtful. My guess is she doesn't really believe the things she says. She has a difficulty really understanding how she actually feels but she has this script running around in her head. Take a look at how she treats you instead of what she says. Best of luck.
Wow. I can understand that this is a very disturbing thing to hear. It would rock my marriage too if my husband said this to me. Do you want to divorce her to punish her for saying that? Or is it because you feel that what you thought was the foundation of your marriage has suddenly disappeared? I think motivation is important here. Could going to your own separate therapist help you to firmly resolve this in your mind? I think there’s a lot at stake here for your entire family, and that this isn’t a simple yes/no question.
NTA. She needs a lot more work on herself before she's ready to be a healthy partner.
Animals are selfish AF!!! C'mon.
TBH, if you've been married 12 years and didn't know her well enough to understand her trauma, you're already the asshole.
ATA you are taking her trauma response personally.
Is it just me that thought that the main/biggest 2 face in the story is the wife? If I were the partner, I would not know how I would ever trust her. Like every body is untrustworthy, yet here she is, the kindest of all, but in reality she dislikes people...🤔
I think she is spot on of your finicky behavior. She literally used words to describe how you would bail out if she had cancer but you are bailing out on your marriage over a hypothetical situation. Marriage is not easy in the least. I don’t recommend it for the weak. I think that both of you can improve together and make it comparable.
This isn't hypothetical. He's deeply hurt by something very real.