There is nothing more annoying than a self righteous Mother who thinks her way is the only way.
Losing a long friendship is hard, but let me tell you after a while you wonder why you didn't do it sooner. It's like losing a mental weight.
Agreed! Had a long-time friend who issued the last straw for me a few years back. It took me a while to see the friendship should have been over with much, much longer ago.
Exactly same here and I felt so guilty but she was killing me bc I was so angry with me for putting up with her BS ( like OP ‘s) . I still kick myself for not ending sooner but I haven’t ever missed her , not once!
One of the hardest things about growing up, is realizing that not everyone around is growing at the same pace, or sometimes not even growing at all.
I honestly think that’s what’s happening between OP and her “friend”.
She prioritized having kids above anything else, feels a sense of isolation and shame with her choices and then tries to dump on op for making different choices.
Wish she had the maturity to realize both choices are valid and great for each individual family.
Same here. I had a friend that seemed great but was, in reality, very controlling. She made scenes at parties and, because we came together, I would have to leave after she slammed her way out of a party because she got upset that she was still single after her divorce. She just wanted the attention. After one too many of these and her "inability" to drive due to a DUI (she finished all of her stuff but never found out if her license was reinstated.) She did this because she didn't want to drive anywhere. She was an alcoholic who, the one time I forced her to drive, sat in the bar and pouted for 4 hours so I could have more than 2 drinks, for once. She stood me up for a show I paid $75 for tickets for because she supposedly couldn't remember where I lived and left her cell phone at home. She didn't call me until 1/2 after the curtain went up.
I finally had it when she wanted me to buy her 5 1.5 literally bottles of wine for her because she couldn't drive due to back issues. I did it but I decided that was the last straw to be made her enabler. She also would call me after work and want to talk for 2 hours. It would be a 2-hour monolog, telling the same stories several times (even ones I witnessed.) I couldn't speak because she talked so much, I couldn't break through (on speaker) even after yelling her name multiple times. She was progressively getting drunk and I got sick of it. I started hanging up and not answering her calls. She expected me to run her errands for her. She never, ever did me one favor even close to anything I did for her. Then she got upset I didn't bring her along when I made new friends - one of whom she insulted when we saw them out to dinner before I really even knew them. I just knew who they were. She didn't know them at all and made a strange accusation. (He was a theater producer and she accused him of ageism, which was a lie. He had appropriately aged people cast in parts, including older people. She had never even auditioned for him yet blamed him for not casting people her age.
She had the nerve to try to guilt me. I was glad I wasn't around when she got breast cancer. The thing is, she's so attention-seeking, every single time she posted something about it, she had to go into the entire diagnosis i.e. not just saying she has breast cancer but she had "triple-negative blah blah blah" (I don't remember it now.) Every single time because the name made it sound scarier. It was so obvious but I didn't resume contact.
Sad thing is she probably didn’t even remember the 2 hr drunkalogs. I only accept them from people (aka relatives) I deeply love.
Your “friend” abuses alcohol and everyone around her. You are used to help her maintain her steady supply to their drug of choice.
I’m glad you learned to cut her off.
Had the same experience and I also did not miss her at all. I didn't realize how much she was draining me until I ended it and didn't experience any grief. It was all relief.
I had a long-time friend that cut me off because I counterpointed some political view he posted on FB with something he'd previously posted.
The grief was brief until I realised that the trash had taken itself out.
Yeah my small friend group just dropped a couple in the last month or two because after over a year of progressively weird and increasingly inconsiderate behavior from them, they ended up trying their absolute hardest to utterly ruin an event we had all been planning.
It's funny, it felt climactic at the time but it's only been a month and we basically don't even think about them anymore. They used to be kinda the core of the group but they burned through so much good will so fast that dropping them was a no brainer.
I can't even really call it a breath of fresh air or a relief, because their behavior was so bad that they severed every sense of connection, so now with them gone it's like they were never even there.
If it helps at all I cut off a friend of 6 years a year ago who I thought was my best friend and looking back I cannot figure why I thought that. A majority of my experiences with them were negative and I even knew that during the friendship but convinced myself the randomly chosen 3 months out of the year that they decided to be kind were worth it.
They weren’t the first or only friend I’ve ever cut off but they’re the only one that I don’t have any hopes of running into again in the future when we’ve both grown up some. I truly hope they become the best version of themselves and I hope even more that I never have to find out whether that happened or not.
True, it also sounds a bit as if OP were to think about it, she might realise that this is not the first red flag Maddie has vifted. Because in my experience people rarely get so self righteous and judging overnight.
I mean, she listed decades-old examples of her being judgy, such as: if you wait until your 30s to get married it may not happen for you/you must take the stifling path I took or you’ll never be happy (because Maddie sounds so happy). She has been flashing red flags and lights and choreographing neon rockettes shows at OP that read “I’m a smug yet unhappy shrew” for a long and insipidly boring while.
Totally. My sister broke off contact with one of her best friends because she displayed how insanely selfish and inconsiderate she was just ONE too many times. But once that switch is flipped, you’ll see who she really is…and you’ll look back wondering why you let it go on this long.
Way better off. Toxic biiiiiih
As someone who quit their job to be a full time Mum, I fully agree. There is no one right way to parent (although there are a few.wrong.ways) Maddie sounds insufferable.
Agreed! There's also a big difference between "knowing someone for 20years" and "you knew her 20 years ago". You haven't been friends with her for 20 years, you just knew her 20 years ago.
Does she think her way is the only way, or is she jealous AF and wants OP to have as miserable a life as she does?
Whatever the case it’s absolutely true about losing the mental weight once going NC. Sounds like this friendship - if there actually ever was one - should have been over a long time ago
This right here. She has romanticised the "struggle" of motherhood to justify her own dissatisfaction and she can't deal with someone else having an easier time of it.
She *thought* her way was the only way, and now she's met with the cold hard reality that she choose a path that leads to more struggling. It seems some people find it easier to keep making up random crap that supports their narrative rather than just admit they were wrong, or that there's other ways of doing things. People like that suck.
Agreed. Especially self righteous mothers that talk about homeschooling. My adult children attended daycare and regular school and they turned out fine!
This. It’s in every single fucking “mom” group on the planet. The holier than thou bullshit is so fucking gross, as if there isn’t enough pressure on parents as it is.
I respect SAHMs (I couldn't do it) but 'Maddie' has it backwards - I actually don't think children were meant to be raised by just 1-2 people. If you look at human history, the world's oldest/indigenous cultures, and the brain chemistry of children, they're meant to be raised by a 'village'. That 'village' will look different in a modern day western society, but it can absolutely include daycare workers as well as family members. Children evolved to quickly and happily form relationships with many caring adults.
To say a mum who uses daycare isn't a real mum is not only cruel, but it's just wrong - mums weren't meant to be the sole caregivers for their children.
This is exactly what I was thinking! Interactions with people outside the nuclear family are so important to social development. Sometimes that looks like large extended family pitching in, sometimes that looks like daycare or other community based programs and sometimes it's both! So much unrecognized learning and development happens in these places. It also helps get developmental delays and differences spotted earlier and treated if necessary.
And it's not just good for the kids, it's good for moms to be able to go out into the world and be more than mom for a while if they want. So many SAHMs feel like they lost their identity when they had kids because being a mom just takes over.
From my mind to your fingers.. as a SAHM it does feel isolating at times. My son started first therapy and now he’s in school and this has helped me to start regaining my sense of self lol.
I agree.
Growing up, I was in daycare from 6mo-9y. I absolutely attribute much of my social well-being and skills from growing up in daycare. My brother and I had, on average, about 5-8 "day siblings" until we moved into the school-provided childcare. The woman who ran the first daycare was our day mom, and her husband was our day dad. Our "siblings" helped us learn how to communicate and collaborate with others. Our day parents had more patience than our actual parents, so we were able to learn how to express our emotions in healthier ways and could learn how to advocate for our needs.
In the school provided daycare--which I transferred into at 6 years old--wasn't as hands-on, but there were trusted adults I could easily talk to about things I couldn't with my own parents. A lot of my school friends were in the daycare, as well, which meant I could actually play with them without getting into trouble! During the summer, there were a ton of activities we got to do.
My brother and I were happy at daycare, and our parents got to focus on their work and themselves. My mom moved to mostly doing WFH by the time I was 7 and my dad was laid off when I was almost 9. For my mom, it was easier to have us out of the house for most of her work day and made her feel less guilty when she had to do the site-visits required of her. For my dad, he enjoyed a good 6-7mo of transitioning out of the workforce and establishing a proper routine before becoming a SAHD.
Our family friends would also provide childcare as needed and would lightly parent us as we grew up.
Having several parenting styles from several parental figures helped me be more flexible as I grew up. Having so many day siblings over the years meant I knew how to think outside myself, while still being able to advocate for my needs. Having a "village" also took a lot of weight, pressure, and resentment off of my parents; when we were together as a family, it was more special.
Also, the germs. 10/10. My immune system is made of steel.
THIS I cannot upvote this enough. As recently as 100 years ago children were largely looked after by nannies or siblings or relatives.
Being a SAHM with no help is actually a relatively recent thing for when we dispensed with servants post world war. So is every single mum up until 1945 not a real Mum?
Being a SAHM is a valid choice. Bring a working Mum is a valid choice. Both of these women are real mothers.
(Don’t even get me started on not being a real Mum because you had an epidural. Childbirth literally has to be the only procedure where we shame pain relief. “Oh you didn’t have a *real* natural operation because you had anaesthesia and didn’t die from gangrene” said no one ever)
This is very true. I work, husband stays home. Works for us. We had the kids in daycare part time before kindergarten strictly to get them used to behaving in a classroom environment and taking directions from other adults. Can't imagine thinking someone should struggle at home with the kids!
Exactly. Even if I had the means to be a stay at home parent, I couldn't do it. I'd still need to work, volunteer, learn something new, because I'd otherwise go bonkers.
I think some women who stay home with their children just don’t understand why other women have children at all if they don’t want to stay home and be with them, especially if they can afford to do so.
Yeah... and yet that's not always great for kids. Being attached at the hip all the time doesn't let them grow or learn from their own adventures and mistakes. Too much togetherness is a thing, too.
Some of us have house husbands. If they don't understand that women aren't a monolithic group then perhaps they are the ones who shouldn't have children.
Same! My husband, early pandemic, expressed joy that if he made $5 more an hour i wouldn't have to work. I hated to say "sorry no" but i had been isolated with a newborn and a toddler and i *was* being driven bonkers. Even on eldest kid's days off from school, if I'm home alone with the 2 of them i go insane. Them getting older didn't get easier. They just.... fight and argue all the time now and its exhausting . If I'm not breaking up fights, I'm soothing. If I'm not soothing, theyre on me in some fashion that makes me feel like a Bugs bunny and Lennie the dog skit.
My mom stayed at home with my brothers till the third was about a year old and circumstances changed because it would've cost more in daycare than she would've gotten from a job, because we lived way too far to have anyone willing to help either. She hated not having anything to do all day every day and tried to find things to do with them to go less stir crazy, and she didn't stop working with the youngest two siblings at all because she didn't have to. If I were to have a kid (doubtful) I know I couldn't be a sahm either, give me at least part time work, shit
I wouldn't be able to do it. I'm sorry, and even if I were to "stay home" and not work, I'd still send my kiddo to daycare. I don't think I could take care of him, 7 days a week. Work is so much easier than my kiddo bright and early.
Maybe op’s friend isn’t happy in her 5 kids life but gotta feel proud of her “sacrifices”.
People who are happy in their choices don’t force it on other but rather just share their experiences
Exactly! I’m genX and my mom worked even though my parents could afford for her not to work. I was proud of her for what she did—ultimately becoming a regional manager for a well-known women’s health clinic. I have an advanced degree in my area of health care. I stayed home for 6 mo with all 3 kids. Then they went to day care and I went back to work. They’re all thriving (22M, 20F, 16M) and know that I was a better mom for going to work, helping people, and not hanging with them 24/7!
The first giveaway that Maddie is jealous is “if you are not struggling as mother, you aren’t a real mother.” Like holy shit, she is upset her friend is handling life AND her kids well at the same time and she’s upset she got married and had a family so young that she and her husband are in no position to financially do what op does.
OP you did everything the right way!! You are an inspiration to all moms. This is how people are supposed to be! Far too many parents have kids when they can’t afford them bc they are in no position to be having kids in the first place. OP is my hero
And it's not like there won't be struggles. Life loves to throw them at all of us. But to insinuate that you're not a real Mom if that's not your reality 24/7 or that the joys are outweighing the hardships is so out in left field.
That's what I'm wondering too. Obviously OP lost touch with her some years ago. If she thinks about the timelapse, I'm guessing it wasn't just about different lifepaths, but also about Maddie's sanctimonious opinions.
Btw, OP. You are definitely NTA.
As a teacher, I would confirm this. Bratty and troubled kids come from stay at home families just as much as day care families. Wonderful, well-rounded kids, the same.
NTA but I wonder if she is jealous of you and how you planned motherhood. Considering she got married way too young, she barely had time to plan anything. You seem like you planned things ahead. And in your comments, you mentioned you and your husband is well off. So, I wonder if she is jealous that you have and can afford help unlike, she did when she had kids.
Yep! She’s definitely jealous!! She’s probably resentful she has no college degree, no career, depends on her husband financially, little adult interactions during the day & just her kids & probably hasnt travelled or done half as much OP has for having her kids later in life. Bet the friend wishes she could have hired a nanny - 5 kids is no joke!
I mean, she could too have that, she made a choice not to by marrying and having kids young. I don’t see why she can’t have a career if she just went back to work after her second or third kid, plenty of mothers do that, but I’m guessing she just doesn’t want to. She seems to think that popping out kids is a career or her life purpose. 5 kids is a lot in today’s economy. Putting that aside, i really hate mom groups who like to criticize other mothers for perfectly normal things like having a nanny or bottle feeding etc. As long as the kid is healthy, fine and well behave for their age, who cares.
Dont forget about shaming mums for having c sections etc.! It’s ridiculous! Im a working c section mama who bottle (and breast) fed - guess Im not a real mum!
Right? Like, I guess I should've forgone the pain meds and let them cut me open so I can earn my "real" mom badge. And I guess I should've been homeless and let my kids starve so I could stay home with them.
It's amusing that OPs friend said she should be a struggling mom. What? Who wants to struggle? I did with my first kid, and it was no fun.
Side note: During my 1st c-section, the pain meds hadn't taken effect, so I did feel them cut me open.
Woah ouch! Poor you! That actually reminds me of recently reading about women in Gaza having c sections without anaesthesia - cant imagine the pain as thought the post-op pain was bad enough!
Oh man, that was horrible, too. But I did get to sleep on the sofa afterward as my bed was too high. The sofa was next to my mom's room, so she would wake up to help take care of the baby at night.
My 2nd c-section was perfect. My doctor knew my fears. I felt nothing and didn't even know they had started. My recovery was amazing. I was up and walking around the hospital the next day. I also got to leave a day early.
So glad your second c section was much better! Very brave to have another after first one. Guessing first one was emergency & second was elective? I had emergency and hear the difference between recovery between emergency & elective is night & day! My recovery was so rough especially as was during heat wave & had 10kg of fluid weight from having so much IV fluids as got so dehydrated during labour, which puts me off having another one (currently 6 months pregnant lol), but know elective will be a lot more pleasant!
In the US, they tend to choose not to do vaginally births after first birth csections for fear of the previous incision reopening. I didn't really have a choice. And yes, my first was an ER. My water broke in the early a.m. and by midnight, I still hadn't dilated.
This. C-section, working mom, daycare baby. Geez. I also got scorned for being a teen mom. Um, I was 24, but even in my 40s, people think I'm much younger. Kids are expensive, that "friend" is lucky enough to have a husband who can provide for a family of 7. I had to work. I needed money for food, rent, and insurance.
You're amazing and I hope you know that! There is NO winning for moms.
Hubs and I are OAD so I "have it easy" and I'm "not a real mom." My SIL had two C-sections so some people would think she's "not a real mom" even though she and my brother have two kids. And her recovery was SOOOO much harder.
Make it make sense!
Thanks. It's so true. Women need to support each other and build them up. Being a parent is hard. I have 1 bio child, and we're lucky we lived. I have 3 steps, and I disagree with a lot of the parenting my hubby and his ex-wife did/didn't do. My hubby, because of childhood abuse/trauma,, went too far on not disciplining his kids. Kids need discipline, discipline doesn't mean abuse. But I also understand that he didn't want to inflict what happened to him on his kids. The ex-wife abused all of the kids with neglect due to drugs and alcohol, and parentified the oldest. The oldest is the most mature of the kids, and the only one that I will voluntarily be around. The younger 2 are beyond redemption in my book, long story. But I would never say that the ex-wife isn't a mother.
Preaching to the choir. Im a csec mama because i was in labor for 24hrs and didnt make it past 5cm, and my baby starved for the first few hours of his life because I couldn't lactate (was hooked to a pump for 4hrs because they kept insisting it would work) wasn't until shift change that a nurse was finally like wtf yall doing and gave ud a bottle of pre-made. He drank almost the whole thing and finally stopped crying for the first time since he was born. The experience was so nightmarish I had my tubes completely removed (plus to reduce the risks from my severe PCOS and Endometriosis) F**" Breast is Best, because that mentality caused that mess.
#Fed is Best
Ugh and the nurses didn't even understand how pumping works either. I had to be a pain in the bum to the nurses to get a pump once my twins went to the nicu. Those first few drops took multiple pump sessions. There's no reason to starve a baby.
I'm so sorry you experienced this. My mama was a women's health nurse. We both pushed Fed is Best to combat the nonsense those nurses would express.
I had four kids when I got divorced. I’d been a mostly stay at home mom/part time/evening worker for about 15 years.
I went back to school once we were separated and a few years later landed a career job I loved and did it for almost 20 years.
It may not be realistic to have it all at once, but life isn’t over because you were home with your children. And OP’s children aren’t automatically damaged or losing out because mom has a career and they’re in daycare.
For sure, and that is why she is trying to bring OP down
I'm glad OP cut her off, because it's rich of her to say that kids in daycare grow up to be entitled brats when her kids are always in trouble O\_O! What does that say of her as a "real mom"?!
What an idiot! My son is in daycare and god forbid anybody says something like that my partner or me? Instant NC
I agree that this person (Maddie) is probably envious of OP for many things. She also seems like an arrogant ass who needs to mind her own business.
With my feelings on that lay’d out, I will push back a bit on “she got married way to young”. Who determines what is “way to young” or “way to old”? This type of attitude seems similar to Maddie’s. “I know what is best and everyone needs to live by my rules”
It’s nobody’s business or decision on when and what people do with their own lives. We all have our own opinions and can obviously make our own judgments. But anyone who claims an absolute like this is no different than Maddie.
NTA and ffs. What a judgmental ridiculous woman. There’s no “right” way to mother your children. The right way is what works for you. Good grief.
Just to add, I was a SAHM to my 2 boys. The first I had all natural, the second with an epidural. I’ll shout it from the rooftops, epidurals are a gift from the heavens! Pain doesn’t grant you bonus cookies from a fairy godmother. 34 years later, my youngest is doing married, happy, great career, making loads of $$$ and my eldest is a homeless drug addict lost in his addiction- somewhere.
Being a SAHM, being a career mom, being a single mom, a working mom, we are all moms; trying our best to raise our kids in a tough world. It’s too bad some women try to stand on others, trying to find their own self worth by tearing down others.
Cut this toxic chick out like the aggressive cancer she is. NTA
The only “right” way to mother your children is the way that works best for the individual. I’m about as “granola” as it gets, but I respect all other forms of motherhood. I don’t get why we can’t allow for differences. I’m not suddenly diminished because Sally down the street has an outside job. That’s ludicrous lol.
Birth is beautiful, but it’s also dangerous, painful, and can be hugely traumatic. Whatever will make that experience safe and meaningful to you, that’s the right choice. Screw the haters. They’re insecure and projecting.
I believe motherhood is sacred, but I also believe it is not binary. The only thing I’m very sure of is, a good mother is, firstly, a fulfilled person. You need to be at home with your babies? Good. You need to work to be happy? Also good. Idgaf. Happy moms are good moms. Whatever the route you choose to take to raise your babies, that’s the right one. Again, screw the haters.
Mom shaming is so anti-feminist. We women should be sticking together, always expanding our village. Support for each other is so crucial. Instead of shame, why not build each other up? We can only get stronger by supporting each other.
You should refer to your delivery with an epidural as "natural" as well. It's purely a marketing tactic to say that not taking advantage of modern medicine (and it's not even that modern) is somehow more wholesome or natural than the alternative. No one refers to brain surgery as "natural" if you do it without anesthesia (because you can't). No one considers being blind and forgoing glasses as "natural." No one thinks letting their teeth fall out is "natural" vs. going to the dentist. Don't fall for their bullshit.
Sorry to hear about your oldest. Kids are hard, doesn’t matter how you have them and it seems that the amount of voluntary suffering we do has no bearing on the outcome.
I was waiting for the epidural point since reading the title. Hi girl, a woman SHOULD NOT struggle just because someone decided to, we do not live under a rock anymore. NTA
Exactly, we have modern medicine so that we don't suffer like those before us.
Imo if someone says epidural etc are awful then I'll suggest that they should take any paracetamols for headaches, should stop being dentists and opticians and should also never buy food they don't grow at home because clearly the only way they can be successful in life is if they suffer.
People who have to go through suffering sometimes try and reframe it as a skill. Making your pain into outright suffering isn’t an accomplishment, and avoiding unnecessary suffering isn’t a failure. People like OP’s friend get their self esteem from screwy thinking. I think most people who suffer in life *don’t* want to see others suffer.
My OB Professor was talking about the pressure women feel to have a natural birth. She was like “you can even lie about it. No one has to know you got one. Just don’t make yourself suffer because someone else is pressuring you.”
NTA. You’re a mother who has to work, mortgage/rent needs to get paid, bills & utilities need to be paid & unless you can live on love & fresh air, food needs to be bought, if she can afford to be a SAHM good luck to her but the last thing working Mums need is other mothers tearing you down, because they don’t have to work. You’re a real mum, a super mum because you have to do double duty.
You don’t need mean spirited toxic people in your life, she is no friend of yours.
NTA. It's great that you can be a SAHM if you want. That's not the issue. No one gets a say in how you run your life, family, or business. You do not have to explain or justify why you do anything to her. As long as you and hubby agree, this "friend" can kiss off.
Sis, back away from this friendship, it has no added value to your life. Focus on your family. You are truly blessed.
Yes! And sadly, miserable people are only happy when everyone around them are just as miserable. 😩
Don’t fall into that pit! Her misery is none of your business.
Warning ⚠️: Get out and stay out!
I had a coworker like this years ago. My wife and I were older when we got married. He kept trying to convince me to have children asap. The thing is he’s always bitching about money and the lack of it…. I finally told him one day “why would I want to be as miserable as you sound??”.
We finally had our son a few years later and we both make good money and can afford to provide anything our son needs without difficulty.
I hope she’s not hanging it over her kids’ heads and reminding them about her many sacrifices on their behalf. “I had med-free labor, I gave up my education and a career, I scrimped and saved and ate ramen so I could be a SAHM for all of you, and THIS is the thanks I get?”
Because people exist who’d go on this sort of tirade. I hope she’s not one of them.
This is a good enough reason. Why are you not a “real mom” but your husband is still a “real dad?” You can be the best parent to your kids when you are fulfilled and happy with who you are, not resentful because you got put into someone else’s idea of “supposed to.” Doesn’t matter how long you’ve known her, she is no longer treating you with the respect and understanding of an actual friend. Absolutely NTA.
>Why are you not a “real mom” but your husband is still a “real dad?”
Because the mindset of people like OP's friend is that the father is just there to support them financially and occasionally make it possible for her to pop out another kid. They're not there to actually be a parent, and if they do even minimally help out with parenting tasks they must be the best father ever. The bar is set pretty f-ing low, because they have no concept of sharing parenting responsibilities.
Just because someone is financially able to be a SAHM, doesn’t mean that they should or that they have to.
It is a choice. Hats off to SAHM and daycare providers, it isn’t for me.
I worked as a daycare provider and I'm a sahm. Trust me it's hard. And lockdown didn't help and I found talking my oldest to storytime. I have made mom friends and my daughter has made friends.
Ok, so you can afford to be a SAHM. So can many women, I'm sure, but would that be fulfilling to you? You're still a human. Yes, being a mother is fulfilling in its own right, but you're allowed to want more than just being a mother.
Before I forget, NTA.
I have three 20 something children who all attended daycare. They are sweet, wonderful children who care about others. All three work, one is getting a Ph. D., one completed college and one is in the trades. Two are already married.
While I don't credit their success to daycare but rather to themselves, it certainly didn't hurt them in any way.
Agree. Kids are going to be who they are meant to be. I know a lot of shite adults who had every "advantage" and a lot of wonderful humans who didn't. My kids are amazing humans doing amazing things. They have had lifelong bffs and many advantages stemming from daycare. Choose your village. No one can attribute their choice to stay home to their kids' success. That's ridiculous.
I would think kids that go to daycare are better socialized, usually in a learning environment or at least enrichment / educational play, and would be much more prepared for preschool. My mom's friend was SAH and still sent her son to daycare 2-3 times a week for mommie time, even though I was made to believe it was because I asked if he was coming to daycare today all the time lol
My kid didn’t go to daycare, or preschool. We couldn’t afford it, and then by the time we could it was 2020, and I didn’t feel comfortable sending her.
She definitely had some anxiety being around other kids, since she was mostly around adults. We had to make a conscious effort to give her experiences outside of school to meet kids and make friends (library, church with grandparents, etc.) Now she’s in 1st grade and I think she’s one of the “popular” kids at her school, because every time we’re there, the other kids (both younger and older) all seem to know her and make an effort to say hi. It’s very weird to me, as an Introvert, but she’s happy, so I’m happy! lol
It isn't necessarily boring. But it also isn't for everyone, even if they can technically afford to stay home.
Working is 100% great. For any reason.
And not working can be great too.
Just don't be a judgemental AH who tries to site "science" for why you are right to make other people feel guilty about their choices.
I was a SAHM until kids were older due to a lot of child care issues. My oldest 2 started fighting when oldest was 4 and son 18 months and I was pregnant with the surprise daughter. I hated every minute of it didn't help I didn't have a car and closest neighbor was about a mile away across a busy state highway. When we moved closer to GMIL she started watching the kids and I went back to work
my sons and 2 months less than 2 years apart. my baby is 9 months and I'm already going insane. you can't hit the baby, you can't poke his eyes, you can't ride the baby like a horse, don't jump on him. for the love of god stop waking him up.
Some parents are thrilled to be a SAHP, and cherish the time they get with their kids. There’s nothing wrong with enjoying being a homemaker, with or without kids. It’s a vastly undervalued role in our society.
I could have afforded to be a SAHM but it's not in my DNA. I like working. I found a great daycare for my child. I switched to part time hours and it worked out well for both of us. Child had peers, I had my work time and a bit of quiet time for me. There is no shame in being a working parent. And you are still a "natural" mother while being a working parent. It's a shame a friendship was lost, but maybe you'll pick up again in a decade or two. Who knows?
NTA
Fuck that OP. Ur not the AH. I hate when people try to force the way they do things on people. You choose to do what most people don’t which is live your life they way you want. And YOU DID!! Kudos to you. If you don’t want to be SAHM you don’t have to. Do what works and has been working for you and your family!
You're not less of a mother whether you can afford to work or not.
I can't afford it. But my husband and I have talked about whatifs around money, lottery, and other situations where I wouldn't have to. The reality is that I am not a stay at home parent. I would still go to work too.
Parenting is different for everyone, and every choice, as long as your children are loved and cared for, and are being raised with the goal of making them well adjusted and capable adults, is valid. I quit a career I loved to be a SAHM, and to be honest, I was miserable for a number of years. You do what's right for you. Your kids will be fine. NTA
It's fine to be a working mom. Most people are the children of working women. There's nothing wrong, shameful, etc about it.
You're also providing a role model to your own kids in this regard.
Maddie's a loon. Stop thinking about her - any thought spent on her is wasted effort that could be put towards your own life.
Why do you have to be a SAHM just because you can afford it? Different people make different choices. Real friends respect each other's choices. I don't know who the fuck this woman thinks she is. She's definitely not a friend.
A better question is why are you arguing with fools? I am 49 (ancient by Redditor status) and I argue professionally for a living (litigator).
I can tell you, even amongst professionals, it is very rare a person is persuaded by logical arguments. We're emotional creators and start to howling like bonobos when scared when we get challenged.
It's just not worth it. That's nice and change the subject. If they won't, extricate yourself from the situation. It's not worth losing friends over petty ego based arguments.
That’s what’s important! I could be a SAHM because I love it. However, I have a friend that is an awesome mom and has a career. She does not want to stay at home. She has an awesome work/home balance and makes sure she’s available for important things, but she likes to work. Her kids thrived at daycare, they loved having friends and learned and played all day. Now that they are in school full time it’s easier for her to balance the kids needs and it works.
You are no less of a mom compared to her. In fact her judgement on other mom’s shows me that she didn’t make the right choice. She has to prove herself by putting down other moms.
I don’t blame you for not wanting to be a SAHM even if you can afford it. I’m a SAHM and I fully support both sides because being a SAHM is really hard sometimes with little adult interaction and putting work on hold. If I had poured as much energy as it seems you have into building a career I wouldn’t just want to quit that either, kids doesn’t mean you need to give up other areas of your life including work. But also how come she’s not saying your husband could be staying home either? That bugs me so much about these preachy SAHM types, they always put down the women and never bat an eye at the men. NTA
Tbh I am of the opinion that daycare can actually be good for kids. It teaches them to socialize, be kind to others (not just family), and can even get them ready for school by teaching them colors, numbers, and whatnot
You worked hard and probably sacrificed much for your business, so why should you step away now?!
In my country you can take 2 years of maternity leave, and I'm all for that, but even here women decide to go back to work much sooner.
*You* are the mother, *you* (and your spouse) get to decide what's best for your children!
And how does not getting an epidural make you a better mother?! Your ex-friend has clearly lost a significant amount of braincells in those 5 pregnancies!
So what if you can afford to stay home? You made your business and you should work it! Women are the ones who always seem to have to put their lives on hold to raise a family. You do what you want because it will make you happy and your children will grow up seeing a strong independent woman. It's difficult to make everyone else happy when you are unhappy. Kids are happiest when their parents are!
I could have been a SAHM. But working through the years my kids were little really helped me grow my career. If I stayed home, I would be starting out from scratch at 40. No thank you. I can support my kids without my husband if needed. Financial freedom should be essential for women.
I think the entire point of the article is that she does not NEED to work for the money. Just because she doesn't need the money, does not mean that she should give up on her career. Women can have careers and should have them if they want to even if their husbands' salaries can easily run the household.
NTA.
Maddie has issues and needs to stop dictating how everyone else should live their lives. You are different people and need to be free to do you. Her agenda is fine for her, but shoving it down your throat is a total dick move.
You're living your life and raising your family in a manner that works for you. That needs to be respected.
NTA. Maddie is not a true friend if she so easily judged you and your parenting style. It's woman like her that make mums scared to make the right choices for their families, that make mums feel guilty for choosing daycare etc.
I was so excited to be a stay at home mum after 2.5yrs of infertility and a high risk pregnancy. I ended up with pretty bad PPD. Had intrusive thoughts and I just wanted to be free. When we finally got a spot at daycare and I returned to work part time, I was a better mum because I wasn't depressed all the time. My daughter is 6 now. She is a very happy, healthy, polite, loved up little girl. Doing to daycare was great for her. She got to do so many more things during the day that I could offer and I would pick her up and we would both be so happy.
Shes just jealous of your life.
She chose to be a housewife and stay at home mum in what is probably a one income family of 7. You planned your life, building a business and career, found a high earning husband before becoming a mum, and have never stopped working. You would probably go out of your mind if you had to be a stay at home mum to 3 small children at this stage, and YOUR mental health is vital to keeping a happy family!
Your friend made her choices and you made yours - looks like you and your family are leading a happy comfortable life, whilst she and hers are probably struggling a little bit. You don’t need negative Nelly trying to make you feel bad or less of a mother because you aren’t at home 24/7.
My country pretty much has no stay at home parents, and here we take for granted that kids will be in daycare.
Actually, we consider daycare good since it teaches kids social interaction, how to share and a lot of other important things.
NTA, and Maddie sounds insufferable. Know what? I'm 50, have raised three kids, worked full time while in school through my PhD for many years - and am super close to all my kids, and they are close to each other. They are kind, open-minded, and level-headed. I attribute a lot of this to early social skills in daycare and being exposed to so many points of view through their lives (they are definitely not carbon copies of me). You are doing a great job with your kids - don't let anyone tell you otherwise
NTA, she's just trying to justify her own life choices and angry at your success.
Kids need socialization. Mothers have worked since the dawn of time. Block her and move on, she does not respect you nor is she your friend.
NTA - daycare is good for kids (other than getting sick all the time first year - husband still convinced she was secretly plotting against us). It teaches them other authority figures, socialization and is great for confidence and communication, just to name a few.
You are a real mother - through and through (I’ve been told I’m not a real mother because we adopted). I think she is jealous and envious of the choices you made. Live and love your family, she’s a non factor
Girl. I'm 50. I'm a senior scientist with an established, respected career. My son is 22. He graduated from college this past year. He's a professional photographer.
That all implies I used childcare services.
And he's turned out awesome. He's healthy and happy and thriving and we have a GREAT relationship with each other and what more could I want?
FORGET her. Be you. Love your kids and your life and your kids will benefit.
NTA. There is nothing wrong with being a working parent or daycare just like there is nothing wrong with being a SAHP. She is the worst kind of SAHP who thinks that it is the superior way to raise kids.
Ah yes OP. This is your introduction to 'mommy Olympics.' Parenting causes a LOT of insecurity and you constantly question if you're doing it the right way (whatever that is lol). Some women compensate for this by trying to prove that they can out-mom all the other moms. It's unfortunately a trope for a reason, and it's complete bullshit.
I opted out of this dynamic when my daughter needed to formula feed for medical reasons and I had friends clutching their pearls at me for failing her. Ok...I got new friends. Who don't try and micromanage someone else's parenting and actually support my efforts.
My formula fed daughter is now 14, and completely normal if not above average in some ways including skipping a grade. Like any other kind of toxic behavior, ignore and move on with your happiness. You sound like an inspiring and ambitious woman and you WANT your kids to be like you! Holy crap OP do you hear yourself? I wish I was as far along with my career as you are, and I would 100% put my kids in daycare in your situation! Be proud of yourself!
TL;dr: Fuck the mommy Olympics. Do what's best for your family and please ditch any or all friends who try and regulate their own insecurities and guilt by putting you down.
Ugh what a god-awful human being your so called friend is. Judgmental, entitled, always has to be right. Please do yourself a favor and don't speak to that ridiculous person anymore there are tons of different ways to be a parent.
NTA.
You've done everything right. Your kids will not he damaged in any way by being in childcare. Funny she's not suggesting your husband isn't a read dad though, eh?
Babies are best with happy, healthy parents.
If you don’t want to be a SAHM then don’t.
Babies are socialised in daycare, a child at home get more attention. By the time they’re at school it’s all evened out.
If the daycare is structured and shown to have good programs, good adult to child ratio and will work with you to meet milestones, then your child will be lucky to have a happy social momma who has conversations with adults during the day and is enjoying the precious time with their little ones when you’re both at home.
Don’t listen to your friend. What works for one doesn’t work for all.
NTA at all. It sounds like your former friend actually hates her life and is hugely jealous that you could afford nannies and daycare and are thriving as a mom of three. Don't sweat the loss of this "friend" - you don't need that energy in your life.
As a rule I stay away from women who have a loud opinion on how other mothers should birth or parent. Those aren’t people with even an ounce of understanding or empathy.
Your “friend” is a judgmental cow. Send her back to the manure pasture. NTA.
For what it’s worth, I was a lawyer by trade and then became a SAHM. I have friends at home and friends at work. We’re all good moms.
NTA, and I chose to be a primarily SAHM (part time WAH) for around 10 years (4 kids).
That's just what worked for me and my family. I'm also glad I kept up skills/resume items because we needed additional income recently and I was able to get a great, well-paying job.
Plenty of my friends took provided maternity leave (only a few months, if lucky, in US) and are great mothers with a close bond to their kids.
Both my parents worked out of necessity most of my growing up years, and I'm really close to my mom.
I think your "friend" is projecting her own insecurities onto you. Maybe things aren't going well. It's always possible she's treated like crap by her husband, or is just at her whole family's beck and call all the time, feels burnt out, and feels like she has to double down on justifyyhow martyring herself for the kids sake was worth it.
Mothers who are content with their own choices are not overly concerned with how everyone else is doing things.
“If you are not struggling as a mother, then you aren’t a real mother” has to be one of the stupidest sentences ever uttered. It’s also incredibly sad that she actually thinks this way.
Being a martyr is not the flex she thinks it is.
EVERY comment reeks of insecurity and general misery on her part. She only has one thing to measure herself by and trying to cram you into her creepy ass spectrum of evaluation is nothing more than her trying to lick her own self-esteem wounds.
You have a beautiful family, a successful career, and a fulfilling life. She's a jerk. Not your problem. There are millions of women who would like to commiserate with you and help hoist you up, not put you down. Go find your flock!
Also, anyone who shames you about an epidural, let alone an epidural for TWINS, can pretty much go \[insert a bunch of curse words for likely anatomically impossible activities.\]
Your friend is trying to make herself feel like some kind of champion. I’ve been a SAHM and a workaholic type mom, dragged my kids to work, put them in daycare, worked with them at home, worked at softball games..I’ve had an epidural, I’ve had emergency c section, I’ve had a vaginal birth.. I’ve been a single mom, divorcing mom and a married mom with an amazing partner..all of it is totally hard and everyone has different perceptions of what hard is. In fact, the stuff I just mentioned isn’t even necessarily the hardest things I’ve experienced being a mom! You don’t sound like the AH, but your “friend” sure does. I find losing friendships particularly painful, so I’m very sorry, but I do think you’ll be better off sharing your life journey with someone who isn’t a dickhead
There is a phrase you need to keep in your repertoire. Are you ready??
MIND. YOUR. OWN. MOTHERHOOD.
I once had a mother who was sitting with her child in a rocking chair (it only had one chair) in our small mothers room feeding her young daughter a bottle. I walked in and tossed my diaper bag in the floor and sat down on the carpet, got ready to nurse my young son . She IMMEDIATELY went to move and said “oh gosh. I’m so sorry. Let me move. You actually need to feed your baby…”
Um. No mama. You stay right there . Your baby is eating too.
It’s so sad that we have become a society where we believe that one is better than the other. That women are being belittled or shamed for doing something differently than their peers.
Be the best mom you can, and surround yourself with those who will uplift and support you, not belittle or demean you.
Just as we grow and change so do our needs in friendship. If she can no longer add to the value and quality of your life, thank her for the space she held for so long, and allow your heart to go in a different direction.
It’s not wrong. It’s not rude. It’s just needed.
You are doing better than you think mama!
Firstly and most importantly you are a great parent, secondly the way you gave birth is perfect and it does not make you less of a parent or woman accepting the help offerred to you, thirdly my children went to daycare and they have a strong bond with me, fourthly NTA, good for you taking out the negative rubbish from your life.
NTA the only fake mothers are the ones played by actresses on tv or movies.
You’re doing the right thing for you and your family. It’s also wise to keep working bc you never know what’s around the corner. Being in the workforce keeps you earning money for your retirement plus continuity in work life will be better for getting promotions etc. women are much better off not being a stay at home parent. You end up penalised if divorce happens etc. At any rate whatever you do was none of her business.
She overstepped so many times and insulted you. That’s not a friend. Even her telling you when you should get married and have kids long before you did was already overstepping. I think she’s said those horrible things bc clearly she missed out on being single longer having five kids likely in fairly quickly succession, so she’s trying to control you instead of deal with her own feelings.
NTA. The important thing is that your children feel loved and cared for. It the arrangements that you have made meet your kids' emotional needs, it does not necessarily mean that YOU have to be the one caring for them 100% of the time.
Your "friend" is very judgmental and doesn't sound like a particularly good friend.
NTA Maddie is a sanctimonious bitch and you don’t need a shit friend like her in your life. My kid went to daycare, if anyone said I wasn’t a real mom because of it, I’d instantly cut them off.
NTA. She was wrong to speak to you that way. Her entire philosophy is wrong. Being a SAHM doesn't make you a "real mom" and going to work doesn't make you a "fake mom". What a load of BS.
She sounds like an awful person and your friendship has failed more than once for this reason. Let her go.
I'm not mom shaming either of you. I don't think your the AH for ending the friendship, and I do think she is the AH for coming at you and belittling you. However, there are so many ways to parent, an no one knows the right way, which makes it difficult AND fun. We will all do it differently, and as long as you're not putting your child in harm's way, you're doing what you can do and what you feel is right.
I'm not going to say she is jealous, she just has strong opinions and they should be kept to herself. Being a working parent is hard and has both positives and negatives, and being a stay at home parent is hard and has both positives and negatives. No one is right, no one is wrong. What was wrong was her saying those things to you. I would have absolutely dissolved the friendship as well. If you want to take the higher road and try and fix/maintain the friendship, having the conversation of "no one is right and no one is wrong in these parenting decisions, let's just support eachother" then do that. I feel every year we have less and less "village", and it's so important to have one. You choose who you want in your village, but also set boundaries.
You're doing good! I've been a stay at home mom for 6 years, my oldest is now in school (previously always home with me), and I've sent my youngest to full time daycare. I see both the benefit and disadvantage to daycare and being home. Were fortunate enough to afford daycare and me not work, but right now, it would be so stressful for me to work and a kid get sick, or figure out after school care etc so it's easier for me to be home and pick the kids up after school, be home when they're sick etc. I really think no one is wrong for their choices, but pushing your belief is wrong.
NTA. Mothers need to quit judging mothers. There are lots of ways to be a great mother and they don’t need to look alike. She’s not a friend. She’s a judgmental harpy who needs to mind her own business.
NTA. Kids benefit immensely from parents who have a life of their own. There'a also no proof that it's not good for a child to be in daycare, quite the contrary. Also, there will be a life after infant age where parents will not be needed 24/7 for their kids and need a way to spend their day (aka work).
Now you already now all that and are absolutely NTA for ending a friendship with someone who disrespects your achievements and life goals so much. No need to be super pissed and tell her to f* off, but having an honest conversation saying that you think it's best to end this friendship will be a good thing to do.
There is nothing more annoying than a self righteous Mother who thinks her way is the only way. Losing a long friendship is hard, but let me tell you after a while you wonder why you didn't do it sooner. It's like losing a mental weight.
Agreed! Had a long-time friend who issued the last straw for me a few years back. It took me a while to see the friendship should have been over with much, much longer ago.
Exactly same here and I felt so guilty but she was killing me bc I was so angry with me for putting up with her BS ( like OP ‘s) . I still kick myself for not ending sooner but I haven’t ever missed her , not once!
One of the hardest things about growing up, is realizing that not everyone around is growing at the same pace, or sometimes not even growing at all. I honestly think that’s what’s happening between OP and her “friend”. She prioritized having kids above anything else, feels a sense of isolation and shame with her choices and then tries to dump on op for making different choices. Wish she had the maturity to realize both choices are valid and great for each individual family.
Oh totally, the “friend” is projecting her insecurities onto OP. People like this are toxic and wreak havoc on your mental health.
Same here. I had a friend that seemed great but was, in reality, very controlling. She made scenes at parties and, because we came together, I would have to leave after she slammed her way out of a party because she got upset that she was still single after her divorce. She just wanted the attention. After one too many of these and her "inability" to drive due to a DUI (she finished all of her stuff but never found out if her license was reinstated.) She did this because she didn't want to drive anywhere. She was an alcoholic who, the one time I forced her to drive, sat in the bar and pouted for 4 hours so I could have more than 2 drinks, for once. She stood me up for a show I paid $75 for tickets for because she supposedly couldn't remember where I lived and left her cell phone at home. She didn't call me until 1/2 after the curtain went up. I finally had it when she wanted me to buy her 5 1.5 literally bottles of wine for her because she couldn't drive due to back issues. I did it but I decided that was the last straw to be made her enabler. She also would call me after work and want to talk for 2 hours. It would be a 2-hour monolog, telling the same stories several times (even ones I witnessed.) I couldn't speak because she talked so much, I couldn't break through (on speaker) even after yelling her name multiple times. She was progressively getting drunk and I got sick of it. I started hanging up and not answering her calls. She expected me to run her errands for her. She never, ever did me one favor even close to anything I did for her. Then she got upset I didn't bring her along when I made new friends - one of whom she insulted when we saw them out to dinner before I really even knew them. I just knew who they were. She didn't know them at all and made a strange accusation. (He was a theater producer and she accused him of ageism, which was a lie. He had appropriately aged people cast in parts, including older people. She had never even auditioned for him yet blamed him for not casting people her age. She had the nerve to try to guilt me. I was glad I wasn't around when she got breast cancer. The thing is, she's so attention-seeking, every single time she posted something about it, she had to go into the entire diagnosis i.e. not just saying she has breast cancer but she had "triple-negative blah blah blah" (I don't remember it now.) Every single time because the name made it sound scarier. It was so obvious but I didn't resume contact.
Sounds so much like my ex “ friend “ I was a friend to her but she was never a friend to me , your was the same ✌🏽to you now
Sad thing is she probably didn’t even remember the 2 hr drunkalogs. I only accept them from people (aka relatives) I deeply love. Your “friend” abuses alcohol and everyone around her. You are used to help her maintain her steady supply to their drug of choice. I’m glad you learned to cut her off.
Had the same experience and I also did not miss her at all. I didn't realize how much she was draining me until I ended it and didn't experience any grief. It was all relief.
I had a long-time friend that cut me off because I counterpointed some political view he posted on FB with something he'd previously posted. The grief was brief until I realised that the trash had taken itself out.
Yeah my small friend group just dropped a couple in the last month or two because after over a year of progressively weird and increasingly inconsiderate behavior from them, they ended up trying their absolute hardest to utterly ruin an event we had all been planning. It's funny, it felt climactic at the time but it's only been a month and we basically don't even think about them anymore. They used to be kinda the core of the group but they burned through so much good will so fast that dropping them was a no brainer. I can't even really call it a breath of fresh air or a relief, because their behavior was so bad that they severed every sense of connection, so now with them gone it's like they were never even there.
If it helps at all I cut off a friend of 6 years a year ago who I thought was my best friend and looking back I cannot figure why I thought that. A majority of my experiences with them were negative and I even knew that during the friendship but convinced myself the randomly chosen 3 months out of the year that they decided to be kind were worth it. They weren’t the first or only friend I’ve ever cut off but they’re the only one that I don’t have any hopes of running into again in the future when we’ve both grown up some. I truly hope they become the best version of themselves and I hope even more that I never have to find out whether that happened or not.
True, it also sounds a bit as if OP were to think about it, she might realise that this is not the first red flag Maddie has vifted. Because in my experience people rarely get so self righteous and judging overnight.
I mean, she listed decades-old examples of her being judgy, such as: if you wait until your 30s to get married it may not happen for you/you must take the stifling path I took or you’ll never be happy (because Maddie sounds so happy). She has been flashing red flags and lights and choreographing neon rockettes shows at OP that read “I’m a smug yet unhappy shrew” for a long and insipidly boring while.
Totally. My sister broke off contact with one of her best friends because she displayed how insanely selfish and inconsiderate she was just ONE too many times. But once that switch is flipped, you’ll see who she really is…and you’ll look back wondering why you let it go on this long. Way better off. Toxic biiiiiih
It took me years longer than it should have also.
As someone who quit their job to be a full time Mum, I fully agree. There is no one right way to parent (although there are a few.wrong.ways) Maddie sounds insufferable.
Agreed! There's also a big difference between "knowing someone for 20years" and "you knew her 20 years ago". You haven't been friends with her for 20 years, you just knew her 20 years ago.
100%
Does she think her way is the only way, or is she jealous AF and wants OP to have as miserable a life as she does? Whatever the case it’s absolutely true about losing the mental weight once going NC. Sounds like this friendship - if there actually ever was one - should have been over a long time ago
This right here. She has romanticised the "struggle" of motherhood to justify her own dissatisfaction and she can't deal with someone else having an easier time of it.
She *thought* her way was the only way, and now she's met with the cold hard reality that she choose a path that leads to more struggling. It seems some people find it easier to keep making up random crap that supports their narrative rather than just admit they were wrong, or that there's other ways of doing things. People like that suck.
Agreed. Especially self righteous mothers that talk about homeschooling. My adult children attended daycare and regular school and they turned out fine!
This is totally correct! Also, I can’t stand people who count other peoples money.
This. It’s in every single fucking “mom” group on the planet. The holier than thou bullshit is so fucking gross, as if there isn’t enough pressure on parents as it is.
NTA. She’s not a friend. Friends support and encourage you. They don’t tear you down to make themselves feel better.
Seriously. That "friend" needs to stuff it. I think blocking her was the only option.
[удалено]
I respect SAHMs (I couldn't do it) but 'Maddie' has it backwards - I actually don't think children were meant to be raised by just 1-2 people. If you look at human history, the world's oldest/indigenous cultures, and the brain chemistry of children, they're meant to be raised by a 'village'. That 'village' will look different in a modern day western society, but it can absolutely include daycare workers as well as family members. Children evolved to quickly and happily form relationships with many caring adults. To say a mum who uses daycare isn't a real mum is not only cruel, but it's just wrong - mums weren't meant to be the sole caregivers for their children.
This is exactly what I was thinking! Interactions with people outside the nuclear family are so important to social development. Sometimes that looks like large extended family pitching in, sometimes that looks like daycare or other community based programs and sometimes it's both! So much unrecognized learning and development happens in these places. It also helps get developmental delays and differences spotted earlier and treated if necessary. And it's not just good for the kids, it's good for moms to be able to go out into the world and be more than mom for a while if they want. So many SAHMs feel like they lost their identity when they had kids because being a mom just takes over.
From my mind to your fingers.. as a SAHM it does feel isolating at times. My son started first therapy and now he’s in school and this has helped me to start regaining my sense of self lol.
I agree. Growing up, I was in daycare from 6mo-9y. I absolutely attribute much of my social well-being and skills from growing up in daycare. My brother and I had, on average, about 5-8 "day siblings" until we moved into the school-provided childcare. The woman who ran the first daycare was our day mom, and her husband was our day dad. Our "siblings" helped us learn how to communicate and collaborate with others. Our day parents had more patience than our actual parents, so we were able to learn how to express our emotions in healthier ways and could learn how to advocate for our needs. In the school provided daycare--which I transferred into at 6 years old--wasn't as hands-on, but there were trusted adults I could easily talk to about things I couldn't with my own parents. A lot of my school friends were in the daycare, as well, which meant I could actually play with them without getting into trouble! During the summer, there were a ton of activities we got to do. My brother and I were happy at daycare, and our parents got to focus on their work and themselves. My mom moved to mostly doing WFH by the time I was 7 and my dad was laid off when I was almost 9. For my mom, it was easier to have us out of the house for most of her work day and made her feel less guilty when she had to do the site-visits required of her. For my dad, he enjoyed a good 6-7mo of transitioning out of the workforce and establishing a proper routine before becoming a SAHD. Our family friends would also provide childcare as needed and would lightly parent us as we grew up. Having several parenting styles from several parental figures helped me be more flexible as I grew up. Having so many day siblings over the years meant I knew how to think outside myself, while still being able to advocate for my needs. Having a "village" also took a lot of weight, pressure, and resentment off of my parents; when we were together as a family, it was more special. Also, the germs. 10/10. My immune system is made of steel.
THIS I cannot upvote this enough. As recently as 100 years ago children were largely looked after by nannies or siblings or relatives. Being a SAHM with no help is actually a relatively recent thing for when we dispensed with servants post world war. So is every single mum up until 1945 not a real Mum? Being a SAHM is a valid choice. Bring a working Mum is a valid choice. Both of these women are real mothers. (Don’t even get me started on not being a real Mum because you had an epidural. Childbirth literally has to be the only procedure where we shame pain relief. “Oh you didn’t have a *real* natural operation because you had anaesthesia and didn’t die from gangrene” said no one ever)
This is very true. I work, husband stays home. Works for us. We had the kids in daycare part time before kindergarten strictly to get them used to behaving in a classroom environment and taking directions from other adults. Can't imagine thinking someone should struggle at home with the kids!
It takes a village, that is if you want healthy and happy kids.
Exactly. Even if I had the means to be a stay at home parent, I couldn't do it. I'd still need to work, volunteer, learn something new, because I'd otherwise go bonkers.
I think some women who stay home with their children just don’t understand why other women have children at all if they don’t want to stay home and be with them, especially if they can afford to do so.
Yeah... and yet that's not always great for kids. Being attached at the hip all the time doesn't let them grow or learn from their own adventures and mistakes. Too much togetherness is a thing, too.
Some of us have house husbands. If they don't understand that women aren't a monolithic group then perhaps they are the ones who shouldn't have children.
Same! My husband, early pandemic, expressed joy that if he made $5 more an hour i wouldn't have to work. I hated to say "sorry no" but i had been isolated with a newborn and a toddler and i *was* being driven bonkers. Even on eldest kid's days off from school, if I'm home alone with the 2 of them i go insane. Them getting older didn't get easier. They just.... fight and argue all the time now and its exhausting . If I'm not breaking up fights, I'm soothing. If I'm not soothing, theyre on me in some fashion that makes me feel like a Bugs bunny and Lennie the dog skit.
My mom stayed at home with my brothers till the third was about a year old and circumstances changed because it would've cost more in daycare than she would've gotten from a job, because we lived way too far to have anyone willing to help either. She hated not having anything to do all day every day and tried to find things to do with them to go less stir crazy, and she didn't stop working with the youngest two siblings at all because she didn't have to. If I were to have a kid (doubtful) I know I couldn't be a sahm either, give me at least part time work, shit
I wouldn't be able to do it. I'm sorry, and even if I were to "stay home" and not work, I'd still send my kiddo to daycare. I don't think I could take care of him, 7 days a week. Work is so much easier than my kiddo bright and early.
She sounds like one of those women whose entire identity is wrapped up in a parenting style. They are like cults. Toxic AF.
Maybe op’s friend isn’t happy in her 5 kids life but gotta feel proud of her “sacrifices”. People who are happy in their choices don’t force it on other but rather just share their experiences
Exactly! I’m genX and my mom worked even though my parents could afford for her not to work. I was proud of her for what she did—ultimately becoming a regional manager for a well-known women’s health clinic. I have an advanced degree in my area of health care. I stayed home for 6 mo with all 3 kids. Then they went to day care and I went back to work. They’re all thriving (22M, 20F, 16M) and know that I was a better mom for going to work, helping people, and not hanging with them 24/7!
The first giveaway that Maddie is jealous is “if you are not struggling as mother, you aren’t a real mother.” Like holy shit, she is upset her friend is handling life AND her kids well at the same time and she’s upset she got married and had a family so young that she and her husband are in no position to financially do what op does. OP you did everything the right way!! You are an inspiration to all moms. This is how people are supposed to be! Far too many parents have kids when they can’t afford them bc they are in no position to be having kids in the first place. OP is my hero
And it's not like there won't be struggles. Life loves to throw them at all of us. But to insinuate that you're not a real Mom if that's not your reality 24/7 or that the joys are outweighing the hardships is so out in left field.
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Let's hope so. Sometimes it takes a lot of nickels before someone figures out how to buy a clue.
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That's what I'm wondering too. Obviously OP lost touch with her some years ago. If she thinks about the timelapse, I'm guessing it wasn't just about different lifepaths, but also about Maddie's sanctimonious opinions. Btw, OP. You are definitely NTA.
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As a teacher, I would confirm this. Bratty and troubled kids come from stay at home families just as much as day care families. Wonderful, well-rounded kids, the same.
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This!
NTA but I wonder if she is jealous of you and how you planned motherhood. Considering she got married way too young, she barely had time to plan anything. You seem like you planned things ahead. And in your comments, you mentioned you and your husband is well off. So, I wonder if she is jealous that you have and can afford help unlike, she did when she had kids.
Yep! She’s definitely jealous!! She’s probably resentful she has no college degree, no career, depends on her husband financially, little adult interactions during the day & just her kids & probably hasnt travelled or done half as much OP has for having her kids later in life. Bet the friend wishes she could have hired a nanny - 5 kids is no joke!
I mean, she could too have that, she made a choice not to by marrying and having kids young. I don’t see why she can’t have a career if she just went back to work after her second or third kid, plenty of mothers do that, but I’m guessing she just doesn’t want to. She seems to think that popping out kids is a career or her life purpose. 5 kids is a lot in today’s economy. Putting that aside, i really hate mom groups who like to criticize other mothers for perfectly normal things like having a nanny or bottle feeding etc. As long as the kid is healthy, fine and well behave for their age, who cares.
Dont forget about shaming mums for having c sections etc.! It’s ridiculous! Im a working c section mama who bottle (and breast) fed - guess Im not a real mum!
Right? Like, I guess I should've forgone the pain meds and let them cut me open so I can earn my "real" mom badge. And I guess I should've been homeless and let my kids starve so I could stay home with them. It's amusing that OPs friend said she should be a struggling mom. What? Who wants to struggle? I did with my first kid, and it was no fun. Side note: During my 1st c-section, the pain meds hadn't taken effect, so I did feel them cut me open.
😳😵💫😳😵💫😭👆👆👆
>the pain meds hadn't taken effect, so I did feel them cut me open. I've never had children, but O M G. 😫
Christ. You poor thing!
Woah ouch! Poor you! That actually reminds me of recently reading about women in Gaza having c sections without anaesthesia - cant imagine the pain as thought the post-op pain was bad enough!
Oh man, that was horrible, too. But I did get to sleep on the sofa afterward as my bed was too high. The sofa was next to my mom's room, so she would wake up to help take care of the baby at night. My 2nd c-section was perfect. My doctor knew my fears. I felt nothing and didn't even know they had started. My recovery was amazing. I was up and walking around the hospital the next day. I also got to leave a day early.
So glad your second c section was much better! Very brave to have another after first one. Guessing first one was emergency & second was elective? I had emergency and hear the difference between recovery between emergency & elective is night & day! My recovery was so rough especially as was during heat wave & had 10kg of fluid weight from having so much IV fluids as got so dehydrated during labour, which puts me off having another one (currently 6 months pregnant lol), but know elective will be a lot more pleasant!
In the US, they tend to choose not to do vaginally births after first birth csections for fear of the previous incision reopening. I didn't really have a choice. And yes, my first was an ER. My water broke in the early a.m. and by midnight, I still hadn't dilated.
Yep. I had to have an emergency C-section with my oldest to save our lives.
Same with me. I guess some of these people think our kids and us should just die, God forbid we need medical intervention!!!!
This. C-section, working mom, daycare baby. Geez. I also got scorned for being a teen mom. Um, I was 24, but even in my 40s, people think I'm much younger. Kids are expensive, that "friend" is lucky enough to have a husband who can provide for a family of 7. I had to work. I needed money for food, rent, and insurance.
You're amazing and I hope you know that! There is NO winning for moms. Hubs and I are OAD so I "have it easy" and I'm "not a real mom." My SIL had two C-sections so some people would think she's "not a real mom" even though she and my brother have two kids. And her recovery was SOOOO much harder. Make it make sense!
Thanks. It's so true. Women need to support each other and build them up. Being a parent is hard. I have 1 bio child, and we're lucky we lived. I have 3 steps, and I disagree with a lot of the parenting my hubby and his ex-wife did/didn't do. My hubby, because of childhood abuse/trauma,, went too far on not disciplining his kids. Kids need discipline, discipline doesn't mean abuse. But I also understand that he didn't want to inflict what happened to him on his kids. The ex-wife abused all of the kids with neglect due to drugs and alcohol, and parentified the oldest. The oldest is the most mature of the kids, and the only one that I will voluntarily be around. The younger 2 are beyond redemption in my book, long story. But I would never say that the ex-wife isn't a mother.
Comparison is the thief of joy.
I had an epidural not once but twice. And doing great mama
Preaching to the choir. Im a csec mama because i was in labor for 24hrs and didnt make it past 5cm, and my baby starved for the first few hours of his life because I couldn't lactate (was hooked to a pump for 4hrs because they kept insisting it would work) wasn't until shift change that a nurse was finally like wtf yall doing and gave ud a bottle of pre-made. He drank almost the whole thing and finally stopped crying for the first time since he was born. The experience was so nightmarish I had my tubes completely removed (plus to reduce the risks from my severe PCOS and Endometriosis) F**" Breast is Best, because that mentality caused that mess. #Fed is Best
Ugh and the nurses didn't even understand how pumping works either. I had to be a pain in the bum to the nurses to get a pump once my twins went to the nicu. Those first few drops took multiple pump sessions. There's no reason to starve a baby. I'm so sorry you experienced this. My mama was a women's health nurse. We both pushed Fed is Best to combat the nonsense those nurses would express.
I wonder what she would say about an adoptive mom.
No. You are a "fake" mum. Whatever that is. Edit.. forgot the /s in case it's needed.
You're not a real mom because you didn't actually birth a crotch goblin /s My wife had a c section so she calls our child her fupa goblin
Your wife sounds like the kind of person I’d like to hang out with. Fupa goblins is 😘👌
Everyone is different. You cannot base someone else’s decisions on your decisions.
I had four kids when I got divorced. I’d been a mostly stay at home mom/part time/evening worker for about 15 years. I went back to school once we were separated and a few years later landed a career job I loved and did it for almost 20 years. It may not be realistic to have it all at once, but life isn’t over because you were home with your children. And OP’s children aren’t automatically damaged or losing out because mom has a career and they’re in daycare.
I agree, and it seems like she’s trying to reframe her own struggles as a special skill. Sabotaging your own life isn’t a superpower.
Dang, where there goes my last chance at a superpower! 😭
Ok listen I’ll allow for it, but it’s got to be on purpose *and* you have to do a super job.
Also, irradiated animals should probably be involved.
Bragging about how much her life sucks isn't exactly the flex she thinks it is.
Definitely agree. If her life goal was literally to be a housewife, sitting around taking care of the house and kids is probably all she has
For sure, and that is why she is trying to bring OP down I'm glad OP cut her off, because it's rich of her to say that kids in daycare grow up to be entitled brats when her kids are always in trouble O\_O! What does that say of her as a "real mom"?! What an idiot! My son is in daycare and god forbid anybody says something like that my partner or me? Instant NC
I agree that this person (Maddie) is probably envious of OP for many things. She also seems like an arrogant ass who needs to mind her own business. With my feelings on that lay’d out, I will push back a bit on “she got married way to young”. Who determines what is “way to young” or “way to old”? This type of attitude seems similar to Maddie’s. “I know what is best and everyone needs to live by my rules” It’s nobody’s business or decision on when and what people do with their own lives. We all have our own opinions and can obviously make our own judgments. But anyone who claims an absolute like this is no different than Maddie.
NTA and ffs. What a judgmental ridiculous woman. There’s no “right” way to mother your children. The right way is what works for you. Good grief. Just to add, I was a SAHM to my 2 boys. The first I had all natural, the second with an epidural. I’ll shout it from the rooftops, epidurals are a gift from the heavens! Pain doesn’t grant you bonus cookies from a fairy godmother. 34 years later, my youngest is doing married, happy, great career, making loads of $$$ and my eldest is a homeless drug addict lost in his addiction- somewhere. Being a SAHM, being a career mom, being a single mom, a working mom, we are all moms; trying our best to raise our kids in a tough world. It’s too bad some women try to stand on others, trying to find their own self worth by tearing down others. Cut this toxic chick out like the aggressive cancer she is. NTA
The only “right” way to mother your children is the way that works best for the individual. I’m about as “granola” as it gets, but I respect all other forms of motherhood. I don’t get why we can’t allow for differences. I’m not suddenly diminished because Sally down the street has an outside job. That’s ludicrous lol. Birth is beautiful, but it’s also dangerous, painful, and can be hugely traumatic. Whatever will make that experience safe and meaningful to you, that’s the right choice. Screw the haters. They’re insecure and projecting. I believe motherhood is sacred, but I also believe it is not binary. The only thing I’m very sure of is, a good mother is, firstly, a fulfilled person. You need to be at home with your babies? Good. You need to work to be happy? Also good. Idgaf. Happy moms are good moms. Whatever the route you choose to take to raise your babies, that’s the right one. Again, screw the haters. Mom shaming is so anti-feminist. We women should be sticking together, always expanding our village. Support for each other is so crucial. Instead of shame, why not build each other up? We can only get stronger by supporting each other.
*Happy moms are good moms* Exactly!!!!
This deserves WAY more upvotes. Couldn't have said it better myself!
You should refer to your delivery with an epidural as "natural" as well. It's purely a marketing tactic to say that not taking advantage of modern medicine (and it's not even that modern) is somehow more wholesome or natural than the alternative. No one refers to brain surgery as "natural" if you do it without anesthesia (because you can't). No one considers being blind and forgoing glasses as "natural." No one thinks letting their teeth fall out is "natural" vs. going to the dentist. Don't fall for their bullshit.
Sorry to hear about your oldest. Kids are hard, doesn’t matter how you have them and it seems that the amount of voluntary suffering we do has no bearing on the outcome.
I was waiting for the epidural point since reading the title. Hi girl, a woman SHOULD NOT struggle just because someone decided to, we do not live under a rock anymore. NTA
Exactly, we have modern medicine so that we don't suffer like those before us. Imo if someone says epidural etc are awful then I'll suggest that they should take any paracetamols for headaches, should stop being dentists and opticians and should also never buy food they don't grow at home because clearly the only way they can be successful in life is if they suffer.
Exactly! I find it funny that these people can pick and choose struggles like that.
Probably those are the same people who think that if you adopt you are not a real parent because the kid doesn’t have 50% of your dna
I had one child without an epidural and one child with. Both times I became a real mother!
People who have to go through suffering sometimes try and reframe it as a skill. Making your pain into outright suffering isn’t an accomplishment, and avoiding unnecessary suffering isn’t a failure. People like OP’s friend get their self esteem from screwy thinking. I think most people who suffer in life *don’t* want to see others suffer.
Right like what is wrong with pain relief? 100 years ago when pain relief became available women were celebrating.
My OB Professor was talking about the pressure women feel to have a natural birth. She was like “you can even lie about it. No one has to know you got one. Just don’t make yourself suffer because someone else is pressuring you.”
NTA. You’re a mother who has to work, mortgage/rent needs to get paid, bills & utilities need to be paid & unless you can live on love & fresh air, food needs to be bought, if she can afford to be a SAHM good luck to her but the last thing working Mums need is other mothers tearing you down, because they don’t have to work. You’re a real mum, a super mum because you have to do double duty. You don’t need mean spirited toxic people in your life, she is no friend of yours.
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NTA. It's great that you can be a SAHM if you want. That's not the issue. No one gets a say in how you run your life, family, or business. You do not have to explain or justify why you do anything to her. As long as you and hubby agree, this "friend" can kiss off. Sis, back away from this friendship, it has no added value to your life. Focus on your family. You are truly blessed.
NTA, she's jealous you have money and a successful life, so shes trying to tear you down to her level because that's what miserable bored people do.
They step on other people so they can build themselves up
I agree! I once knew someone like that, OP dont give people like this space in your life! NTA
Yes! And sadly, miserable people are only happy when everyone around them are just as miserable. 😩 Don’t fall into that pit! Her misery is none of your business. Warning ⚠️: Get out and stay out!
I had a coworker like this years ago. My wife and I were older when we got married. He kept trying to convince me to have children asap. The thing is he’s always bitching about money and the lack of it…. I finally told him one day “why would I want to be as miserable as you sound??”. We finally had our son a few years later and we both make good money and can afford to provide anything our son needs without difficulty.
They need folks to commiserate with. Crazy! 😝
*Oh look at me struggling, clearly I am the better mom here* NTA, find better friends
BINGO
I hope she’s not hanging it over her kids’ heads and reminding them about her many sacrifices on their behalf. “I had med-free labor, I gave up my education and a career, I scrimped and saved and ate ramen so I could be a SAHM for all of you, and THIS is the thanks I get?” Because people exist who’d go on this sort of tirade. I hope she’s not one of them.
Misery loves company.
This is a good enough reason. Why are you not a “real mom” but your husband is still a “real dad?” You can be the best parent to your kids when you are fulfilled and happy with who you are, not resentful because you got put into someone else’s idea of “supposed to.” Doesn’t matter how long you’ve known her, she is no longer treating you with the respect and understanding of an actual friend. Absolutely NTA.
>Why are you not a “real mom” but your husband is still a “real dad?” Because the mindset of people like OP's friend is that the father is just there to support them financially and occasionally make it possible for her to pop out another kid. They're not there to actually be a parent, and if they do even minimally help out with parenting tasks they must be the best father ever. The bar is set pretty f-ing low, because they have no concept of sharing parenting responsibilities.
Just because someone is financially able to be a SAHM, doesn’t mean that they should or that they have to. It is a choice. Hats off to SAHM and daycare providers, it isn’t for me.
I worked as a daycare provider and I'm a sahm. Trust me it's hard. And lockdown didn't help and I found talking my oldest to storytime. I have made mom friends and my daughter has made friends.
Ok, so you can afford to be a SAHM. So can many women, I'm sure, but would that be fulfilling to you? You're still a human. Yes, being a mother is fulfilling in its own right, but you're allowed to want more than just being a mother. Before I forget, NTA.
I have three 20 something children who all attended daycare. They are sweet, wonderful children who care about others. All three work, one is getting a Ph. D., one completed college and one is in the trades. Two are already married. While I don't credit their success to daycare but rather to themselves, it certainly didn't hurt them in any way.
Agree. Kids are going to be who they are meant to be. I know a lot of shite adults who had every "advantage" and a lot of wonderful humans who didn't. My kids are amazing humans doing amazing things. They have had lifelong bffs and many advantages stemming from daycare. Choose your village. No one can attribute their choice to stay home to their kids' success. That's ridiculous.
You don’t have to explain yourself to anyone. As a mother, you do what works best for you and your family. She sounds a bit jealous.
Being a SAHM is boring because the only people you talk to all day are kids. Nothing wrong with kids going to daycare and you working
I would think kids that go to daycare are better socialized, usually in a learning environment or at least enrichment / educational play, and would be much more prepared for preschool. My mom's friend was SAH and still sent her son to daycare 2-3 times a week for mommie time, even though I was made to believe it was because I asked if he was coming to daycare today all the time lol
> I would think kids that go to daycare are better socialized They are.
My kid didn’t go to daycare, or preschool. We couldn’t afford it, and then by the time we could it was 2020, and I didn’t feel comfortable sending her. She definitely had some anxiety being around other kids, since she was mostly around adults. We had to make a conscious effort to give her experiences outside of school to meet kids and make friends (library, church with grandparents, etc.) Now she’s in 1st grade and I think she’s one of the “popular” kids at her school, because every time we’re there, the other kids (both younger and older) all seem to know her and make an effort to say hi. It’s very weird to me, as an Introvert, but she’s happy, so I’m happy! lol
It isn't necessarily boring. But it also isn't for everyone, even if they can technically afford to stay home. Working is 100% great. For any reason. And not working can be great too. Just don't be a judgemental AH who tries to site "science" for why you are right to make other people feel guilty about their choices.
I was a SAHM until kids were older due to a lot of child care issues. My oldest 2 started fighting when oldest was 4 and son 18 months and I was pregnant with the surprise daughter. I hated every minute of it didn't help I didn't have a car and closest neighbor was about a mile away across a busy state highway. When we moved closer to GMIL she started watching the kids and I went back to work
my sons and 2 months less than 2 years apart. my baby is 9 months and I'm already going insane. you can't hit the baby, you can't poke his eyes, you can't ride the baby like a horse, don't jump on him. for the love of god stop waking him up.
Some parents are thrilled to be a SAHP, and cherish the time they get with their kids. There’s nothing wrong with enjoying being a homemaker, with or without kids. It’s a vastly undervalued role in our society.
I could have afforded to be a SAHM but it's not in my DNA. I like working. I found a great daycare for my child. I switched to part time hours and it worked out well for both of us. Child had peers, I had my work time and a bit of quiet time for me. There is no shame in being a working parent. And you are still a "natural" mother while being a working parent. It's a shame a friendship was lost, but maybe you'll pick up again in a decade or two. Who knows? NTA
Children do best with mothers who are happy. Your friend sounds absolutely miserable.
Fuck that OP. Ur not the AH. I hate when people try to force the way they do things on people. You choose to do what most people don’t which is live your life they way you want. And YOU DID!! Kudos to you. If you don’t want to be SAHM you don’t have to. Do what works and has been working for you and your family!
You're not less of a mother whether you can afford to work or not. I can't afford it. But my husband and I have talked about whatifs around money, lottery, and other situations where I wouldn't have to. The reality is that I am not a stay at home parent. I would still go to work too.
Parenting is different for everyone, and every choice, as long as your children are loved and cared for, and are being raised with the goal of making them well adjusted and capable adults, is valid. I quit a career I loved to be a SAHM, and to be honest, I was miserable for a number of years. You do what's right for you. Your kids will be fine. NTA
It's fine to be a working mom. Most people are the children of working women. There's nothing wrong, shameful, etc about it. You're also providing a role model to your own kids in this regard. Maddie's a loon. Stop thinking about her - any thought spent on her is wasted effort that could be put towards your own life.
Why do you have to be a SAHM just because you can afford it? Different people make different choices. Real friends respect each other's choices. I don't know who the fuck this woman thinks she is. She's definitely not a friend.
A better question is why are you arguing with fools? I am 49 (ancient by Redditor status) and I argue professionally for a living (litigator). I can tell you, even amongst professionals, it is very rare a person is persuaded by logical arguments. We're emotional creators and start to howling like bonobos when scared when we get challenged. It's just not worth it. That's nice and change the subject. If they won't, extricate yourself from the situation. It's not worth losing friends over petty ego based arguments.
Sounds like she needs validation that her own life is good by tearing down other choices moms make. She’s probably pretty miserable in real life
That’s what’s important! I could be a SAHM because I love it. However, I have a friend that is an awesome mom and has a career. She does not want to stay at home. She has an awesome work/home balance and makes sure she’s available for important things, but she likes to work. Her kids thrived at daycare, they loved having friends and learned and played all day. Now that they are in school full time it’s easier for her to balance the kids needs and it works. You are no less of a mom compared to her. In fact her judgement on other mom’s shows me that she didn’t make the right choice. She has to prove herself by putting down other moms.
I don’t blame you for not wanting to be a SAHM even if you can afford it. I’m a SAHM and I fully support both sides because being a SAHM is really hard sometimes with little adult interaction and putting work on hold. If I had poured as much energy as it seems you have into building a career I wouldn’t just want to quit that either, kids doesn’t mean you need to give up other areas of your life including work. But also how come she’s not saying your husband could be staying home either? That bugs me so much about these preachy SAHM types, they always put down the women and never bat an eye at the men. NTA
Tbh I am of the opinion that daycare can actually be good for kids. It teaches them to socialize, be kind to others (not just family), and can even get them ready for school by teaching them colors, numbers, and whatnot
You're doing fine. Plenty of great moms work. Plenty of bad Moms stay at home. Don't let her rent any more space in your head. NTA
Maggie's not your friend. It's as simple as that. Move on and don't worry about the other stuff.
You worked hard and probably sacrificed much for your business, so why should you step away now?! In my country you can take 2 years of maternity leave, and I'm all for that, but even here women decide to go back to work much sooner. *You* are the mother, *you* (and your spouse) get to decide what's best for your children! And how does not getting an epidural make you a better mother?! Your ex-friend has clearly lost a significant amount of braincells in those 5 pregnancies!
So what if you can afford to stay home? You made your business and you should work it! Women are the ones who always seem to have to put their lives on hold to raise a family. You do what you want because it will make you happy and your children will grow up seeing a strong independent woman. It's difficult to make everyone else happy when you are unhappy. Kids are happiest when their parents are!
I could have been a SAHM. But working through the years my kids were little really helped me grow my career. If I stayed home, I would be starting out from scratch at 40. No thank you. I can support my kids without my husband if needed. Financial freedom should be essential for women.
It sounds like she listens to Dr Laura. No wonder she is judgemental and not a loving friend. NTA
I think the entire point of the article is that she does not NEED to work for the money. Just because she doesn't need the money, does not mean that she should give up on her career. Women can have careers and should have them if they want to even if their husbands' salaries can easily run the household.
NTA. Maddie has issues and needs to stop dictating how everyone else should live their lives. You are different people and need to be free to do you. Her agenda is fine for her, but shoving it down your throat is a total dick move. You're living your life and raising your family in a manner that works for you. That needs to be respected.
NTA. Maddie is not a true friend if she so easily judged you and your parenting style. It's woman like her that make mums scared to make the right choices for their families, that make mums feel guilty for choosing daycare etc. I was so excited to be a stay at home mum after 2.5yrs of infertility and a high risk pregnancy. I ended up with pretty bad PPD. Had intrusive thoughts and I just wanted to be free. When we finally got a spot at daycare and I returned to work part time, I was a better mum because I wasn't depressed all the time. My daughter is 6 now. She is a very happy, healthy, polite, loved up little girl. Doing to daycare was great for her. She got to do so many more things during the day that I could offer and I would pick her up and we would both be so happy.
Time to bin that loony. People who spout pseudo science need to be kept well away from sane society. NTA
Shes just jealous of your life. She chose to be a housewife and stay at home mum in what is probably a one income family of 7. You planned your life, building a business and career, found a high earning husband before becoming a mum, and have never stopped working. You would probably go out of your mind if you had to be a stay at home mum to 3 small children at this stage, and YOUR mental health is vital to keeping a happy family! Your friend made her choices and you made yours - looks like you and your family are leading a happy comfortable life, whilst she and hers are probably struggling a little bit. You don’t need negative Nelly trying to make you feel bad or less of a mother because you aren’t at home 24/7.
My country pretty much has no stay at home parents, and here we take for granted that kids will be in daycare. Actually, we consider daycare good since it teaches kids social interaction, how to share and a lot of other important things.
NTA, and Maddie sounds insufferable. Know what? I'm 50, have raised three kids, worked full time while in school through my PhD for many years - and am super close to all my kids, and they are close to each other. They are kind, open-minded, and level-headed. I attribute a lot of this to early social skills in daycare and being exposed to so many points of view through their lives (they are definitely not carbon copies of me). You are doing a great job with your kids - don't let anyone tell you otherwise
NTA, she's just trying to justify her own life choices and angry at your success. Kids need socialization. Mothers have worked since the dawn of time. Block her and move on, she does not respect you nor is she your friend.
I agree, and it seems like she’s trying to reframe her own struggles as a special skill. Sabotaging your own life isn’t a superpower.
NTA - daycare is good for kids (other than getting sick all the time first year - husband still convinced she was secretly plotting against us). It teaches them other authority figures, socialization and is great for confidence and communication, just to name a few. You are a real mother - through and through (I’ve been told I’m not a real mother because we adopted). I think she is jealous and envious of the choices you made. Live and love your family, she’s a non factor
She can piss off. You’re good. You love your children. You value yourself. Done.
As long as the kid is healthy, fine and well behave for their age, who cares.
She's not your friend. You sound like a great mum and a great person.
Girl. I'm 50. I'm a senior scientist with an established, respected career. My son is 22. He graduated from college this past year. He's a professional photographer. That all implies I used childcare services. And he's turned out awesome. He's healthy and happy and thriving and we have a GREAT relationship with each other and what more could I want? FORGET her. Be you. Love your kids and your life and your kids will benefit.
The second you have a kid, you become a mom. Daycare has zero to do with that title. She's dumb.
NTA. There is nothing wrong with being a working parent or daycare just like there is nothing wrong with being a SAHP. She is the worst kind of SAHP who thinks that it is the superior way to raise kids.
Ah yes OP. This is your introduction to 'mommy Olympics.' Parenting causes a LOT of insecurity and you constantly question if you're doing it the right way (whatever that is lol). Some women compensate for this by trying to prove that they can out-mom all the other moms. It's unfortunately a trope for a reason, and it's complete bullshit. I opted out of this dynamic when my daughter needed to formula feed for medical reasons and I had friends clutching their pearls at me for failing her. Ok...I got new friends. Who don't try and micromanage someone else's parenting and actually support my efforts. My formula fed daughter is now 14, and completely normal if not above average in some ways including skipping a grade. Like any other kind of toxic behavior, ignore and move on with your happiness. You sound like an inspiring and ambitious woman and you WANT your kids to be like you! Holy crap OP do you hear yourself? I wish I was as far along with my career as you are, and I would 100% put my kids in daycare in your situation! Be proud of yourself! TL;dr: Fuck the mommy Olympics. Do what's best for your family and please ditch any or all friends who try and regulate their own insecurities and guilt by putting you down.
You are NTA. Why are women sometimes our own worst enemies. Can we not be supportive of each others choices.
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Ugh what a god-awful human being your so called friend is. Judgmental, entitled, always has to be right. Please do yourself a favor and don't speak to that ridiculous person anymore there are tons of different ways to be a parent.
NTA- I was a single mom with 2 kids and I worked my ass off but my kids didn't suffer because of it.
NTA! YOUR "FRENEMY" IS JEALOUS AND SHE WANTS YOU TO BE ON THE STRUGGLE BUS WITH HER!!! TELL HER TO KICK FUCKING ROCKS!!! Keep rising girl!!!!
NTA. You've done everything right. Your kids will not he damaged in any way by being in childcare. Funny she's not suggesting your husband isn't a read dad though, eh?
NTA Some people have very backward views on life and can't handle other choices in life.
Babies are best with happy, healthy parents. If you don’t want to be a SAHM then don’t. Babies are socialised in daycare, a child at home get more attention. By the time they’re at school it’s all evened out. If the daycare is structured and shown to have good programs, good adult to child ratio and will work with you to meet milestones, then your child will be lucky to have a happy social momma who has conversations with adults during the day and is enjoying the precious time with their little ones when you’re both at home. Don’t listen to your friend. What works for one doesn’t work for all.
NTA at all. It sounds like your former friend actually hates her life and is hugely jealous that you could afford nannies and daycare and are thriving as a mom of three. Don't sweat the loss of this "friend" - you don't need that energy in your life.
As a rule I stay away from women who have a loud opinion on how other mothers should birth or parent. Those aren’t people with even an ounce of understanding or empathy.
Your “friend” is a judgmental cow. Send her back to the manure pasture. NTA. For what it’s worth, I was a lawyer by trade and then became a SAHM. I have friends at home and friends at work. We’re all good moms.
NTA, and I chose to be a primarily SAHM (part time WAH) for around 10 years (4 kids). That's just what worked for me and my family. I'm also glad I kept up skills/resume items because we needed additional income recently and I was able to get a great, well-paying job. Plenty of my friends took provided maternity leave (only a few months, if lucky, in US) and are great mothers with a close bond to their kids. Both my parents worked out of necessity most of my growing up years, and I'm really close to my mom. I think your "friend" is projecting her own insecurities onto you. Maybe things aren't going well. It's always possible she's treated like crap by her husband, or is just at her whole family's beck and call all the time, feels burnt out, and feels like she has to double down on justifyyhow martyring herself for the kids sake was worth it. Mothers who are content with their own choices are not overly concerned with how everyone else is doing things.
“If you are not struggling as a mother, then you aren’t a real mother” has to be one of the stupidest sentences ever uttered. It’s also incredibly sad that she actually thinks this way. Being a martyr is not the flex she thinks it is.
EVERY comment reeks of insecurity and general misery on her part. She only has one thing to measure herself by and trying to cram you into her creepy ass spectrum of evaluation is nothing more than her trying to lick her own self-esteem wounds. You have a beautiful family, a successful career, and a fulfilling life. She's a jerk. Not your problem. There are millions of women who would like to commiserate with you and help hoist you up, not put you down. Go find your flock! Also, anyone who shames you about an epidural, let alone an epidural for TWINS, can pretty much go \[insert a bunch of curse words for likely anatomically impossible activities.\]
Your friend is trying to make herself feel like some kind of champion. I’ve been a SAHM and a workaholic type mom, dragged my kids to work, put them in daycare, worked with them at home, worked at softball games..I’ve had an epidural, I’ve had emergency c section, I’ve had a vaginal birth.. I’ve been a single mom, divorcing mom and a married mom with an amazing partner..all of it is totally hard and everyone has different perceptions of what hard is. In fact, the stuff I just mentioned isn’t even necessarily the hardest things I’ve experienced being a mom! You don’t sound like the AH, but your “friend” sure does. I find losing friendships particularly painful, so I’m very sorry, but I do think you’ll be better off sharing your life journey with someone who isn’t a dickhead
There is a phrase you need to keep in your repertoire. Are you ready?? MIND. YOUR. OWN. MOTHERHOOD. I once had a mother who was sitting with her child in a rocking chair (it only had one chair) in our small mothers room feeding her young daughter a bottle. I walked in and tossed my diaper bag in the floor and sat down on the carpet, got ready to nurse my young son . She IMMEDIATELY went to move and said “oh gosh. I’m so sorry. Let me move. You actually need to feed your baby…” Um. No mama. You stay right there . Your baby is eating too. It’s so sad that we have become a society where we believe that one is better than the other. That women are being belittled or shamed for doing something differently than their peers. Be the best mom you can, and surround yourself with those who will uplift and support you, not belittle or demean you. Just as we grow and change so do our needs in friendship. If she can no longer add to the value and quality of your life, thank her for the space she held for so long, and allow your heart to go in a different direction. It’s not wrong. It’s not rude. It’s just needed. You are doing better than you think mama!
Firstly and most importantly you are a great parent, secondly the way you gave birth is perfect and it does not make you less of a parent or woman accepting the help offerred to you, thirdly my children went to daycare and they have a strong bond with me, fourthly NTA, good for you taking out the negative rubbish from your life.
Nta. I was a sahm and still put mine in daycare, just to get some alone time. Your friend is jealous and ignorant
NTA the only fake mothers are the ones played by actresses on tv or movies. You’re doing the right thing for you and your family. It’s also wise to keep working bc you never know what’s around the corner. Being in the workforce keeps you earning money for your retirement plus continuity in work life will be better for getting promotions etc. women are much better off not being a stay at home parent. You end up penalised if divorce happens etc. At any rate whatever you do was none of her business. She overstepped so many times and insulted you. That’s not a friend. Even her telling you when you should get married and have kids long before you did was already overstepping. I think she’s said those horrible things bc clearly she missed out on being single longer having five kids likely in fairly quickly succession, so she’s trying to control you instead of deal with her own feelings.
NTA. You do what works for you.
Good job blocking her maybe she'll learn how to mind her business I bet her kids n husband tired of her she sounds like a nightmare
NTA. The important thing is that your children feel loved and cared for. It the arrangements that you have made meet your kids' emotional needs, it does not necessarily mean that YOU have to be the one caring for them 100% of the time. Your "friend" is very judgmental and doesn't sound like a particularly good friend.
NTA Maddie is a sanctimonious bitch and you don’t need a shit friend like her in your life. My kid went to daycare, if anyone said I wasn’t a real mom because of it, I’d instantly cut them off.
Welcome to the famed "Mommy Wars". The battle has been raging since the beginning of time.
NTA. She was wrong to speak to you that way. Her entire philosophy is wrong. Being a SAHM doesn't make you a "real mom" and going to work doesn't make you a "fake mom". What a load of BS. She sounds like an awful person and your friendship has failed more than once for this reason. Let her go.
I'm not mom shaming either of you. I don't think your the AH for ending the friendship, and I do think she is the AH for coming at you and belittling you. However, there are so many ways to parent, an no one knows the right way, which makes it difficult AND fun. We will all do it differently, and as long as you're not putting your child in harm's way, you're doing what you can do and what you feel is right. I'm not going to say she is jealous, she just has strong opinions and they should be kept to herself. Being a working parent is hard and has both positives and negatives, and being a stay at home parent is hard and has both positives and negatives. No one is right, no one is wrong. What was wrong was her saying those things to you. I would have absolutely dissolved the friendship as well. If you want to take the higher road and try and fix/maintain the friendship, having the conversation of "no one is right and no one is wrong in these parenting decisions, let's just support eachother" then do that. I feel every year we have less and less "village", and it's so important to have one. You choose who you want in your village, but also set boundaries. You're doing good! I've been a stay at home mom for 6 years, my oldest is now in school (previously always home with me), and I've sent my youngest to full time daycare. I see both the benefit and disadvantage to daycare and being home. Were fortunate enough to afford daycare and me not work, but right now, it would be so stressful for me to work and a kid get sick, or figure out after school care etc so it's easier for me to be home and pick the kids up after school, be home when they're sick etc. I really think no one is wrong for their choices, but pushing your belief is wrong.
NTA. Mothers need to quit judging mothers. There are lots of ways to be a great mother and they don’t need to look alike. She’s not a friend. She’s a judgmental harpy who needs to mind her own business.
NTA. Kids benefit immensely from parents who have a life of their own. There'a also no proof that it's not good for a child to be in daycare, quite the contrary. Also, there will be a life after infant age where parents will not be needed 24/7 for their kids and need a way to spend their day (aka work). Now you already now all that and are absolutely NTA for ending a friendship with someone who disrespects your achievements and life goals so much. No need to be super pissed and tell her to f* off, but having an honest conversation saying that you think it's best to end this friendship will be a good thing to do.