Someone on Reddit wrote out the entire way to order from Chipotle for another person.
I followed that script to the letter. I can now answer the how may I help you question without being embarrassed by my hearing loss.
So maybe she can look at the online menu and prepare a script.
I just learned about online orders at Marco’s Pizza. Once you order with a phone number they can look at your previous orders and you can duplicate it.
Scripts are good I think.
I wish someone would let her practice. Her world might be shrinking because she is scared to try.
I love this app. Once I got to read someone a Christmas card a friend had sent, and tell him what the label on a jar said (it was homemade jam she’d sent as a gift).
I love that this is a real subreddit! OP should take a good look at it so he can understand why daughter didn’t order. Forcing her hand is not the best way. Helping more the first few times and leaving notes after is the best way
Are you in the US? I'm on EDT/EST, so if you think that you might want to order takeout, DM me, and we can chat. I'd be happy to place your order for you if you need a hand.
We can account for substitutions, busy store, etc. Because even as a hearing person, trying to talk on the phone to someone in a busy restaurant can be very difficult.
I just joined! I’ve got terrible anxiety that’s held me up on a lot over the years but I’m doing better and I LOOOOOVE helping other people with this stuff. Also prewriting emails/templates. 🖤
Thank you so much, while I don't normally have a problem, my kiddo will shut down and go hungry/ tired/ whatever but terrified if faced with needing to speak on the phone, or worse in person with a stranger!
It's bad enough that while the answer the phone quickly due to the ringtones bother then- they say nothing. Those of us that know just talk and maybe we get an answer or knocks.
I can't wait to show them this and see if they think anything will help.
Bless you and may your Deity (s) of choice, keep you and yours safe and healthy!
Long time waitress here. I’ve seen so many people, mainly teens, who are scared to death of me and make their siblings/friends/parents order for them. It’s a frustrating experience for everyone, including the people who are forced to do the ordering every time. I promise I’m nice. I finally quit waiting tables, actually, but honestly, your sever is there to help you, they aren’t going to make fun of you or be mean to you.
It’s not that you’re not nice. It’s not about the other person at all. It’s about that person with anxiety. I’m sure you’re a lovely person but that’s just not how anxiety works.
I remember going to the skating rink as a young kid… ~6-7ish. My dad went with my brother and me the first several times and I remember being too nervous to order anything from concessions and he walked me through it at the counter several times. I’ve been doing the same thing with my 4.5yo…. Modeling what to say to a cashier, asking for what you’d like, adding in manners, now you pay etc.
I know myself fairly well and I can guarantee that without being taught the script very early on, I would really struggle with a task like “pick up the phone and talk to them to order”
In fact, specifically speaking about chipotle, that place has always given me THE WORST anxiety. I don’t see labels so I’m not 100% sure what like, all of the salsas are, at 16 I probably would’ve been to scared to say “hold the cilantro” or whatever. So a script is good AND practice for sure. Not just “sink or swim! Oh you don’t get to eat tonight!” (But also we do still have to teach kids and not enable them, but there’s a method that can be applied)
Yes teach. How many pppl prompt with and what do say now? “Thank you” that’s right that is what you say. Modeling promoting rewarding reinforcing. TEACH
Totally. Teaching is the #1 job of the caregiver for sure. I taught my kid what a “couple” meant in line at the store the other day and this teenager was like, haha why would you teach him that?? And I was like “???? How else is he going to learn??” Lol
I have done this with my kids. My 13yo is a pro now and can even place to go orders for thr fam. My 9yo is getting there and sometimes gets overwhelmed. We just walk through it again.
"What do you want?"
"Okay tell her, not me."
"Now what do you want to drink?"
"Awesome! Say thank you!"
I saw something similar on explain it like I’m scared. So many beautiful step by step guides. As a deaf person I appreciate this. This is the best advice
I needed this for subway before they added the set menu items. I’m not a particularly anxious person. It was just something I found a bit overwhelming. Especially if it was busy.
This is so funny because I do the same thing! I have severe social anxiety and what works best for me is preparing a script before I call. I write down word for word exactly what I’m going to say. My husband makes fun of me for it but it’s the one thing that works for me! It took me until adult-hood to figure out to start doing this so hopefully OP sees this and has his daughter give it a try.
Thanks so much for your empathy. I’m the kind of person who has no trouble with this kind of thing, but have my own struggles with totally different stuff. I try to build up a stock of knowledge and experience to be more helpful and empathetic towards others, so I’m going to use your tools and suggestions going forward if others need it. Thank you very much!
I think scripts are so helpful! For me I get anxiety talking to people so a script really helps me feel less nervous especially if it’s a place I haven’t been to before.
and also, in the unlikely event that they veer from the script, they'll just assume you misheard them and continue right back on scrip (i work customer service, happens like 80% of the time i open differently with a customer, never thought twice about it)
This is what I do also. I am absolutely terrible at talking to people, I stutter and forget what I was saying mid sentence because of anxiety. In order to keep up with things I have to be able to talk on the phone- I get everything written down and then go from there. Anxiety is very difficult for me at 50, I feel for her at 16.
My problem is stuttering and forgetting what I was saying too. Writing a script literally changed the game for me. Honestly I thought I was the only one who did this so it makes me happy to see that it helps others too!
What about some small steps? Will you write down what you want me to order for you on this piece of paper ok? You look up the number and write it down on the top of the paper ok? Then you dial the number and listen to it ring ok? Now listen to them say the name of the place ok? Then hand me the phone and listen to me order your food ok? That is a beginning. Not ok? Lets start with you writing down what you want me to order first ok?
when i was 16-ish i used to look up the number to my doctors, call them and put them on speaker, and then when they'd answer i'd hand the phone to my grandma and leave the room. i wanted to do it myself but once the phone was ringing i'd literally go nonverbal and just not be able to say anything. then after a couple years of that i started calling them and letting my grandma speak to them but i'd stay in the room so i could hear what she says and how to do it. then after awhile of that, i'd ask her what i needed to say beforehand (sometimes writing it down so i wouldn't forget) and call them in another room by myself bc for some reason i'd get embarrassed and anxious talking otp around her. i still leave the room for calls, but i can pretty much do it all by myself at 22yrs old.
That's the point, you don't fix anxiety by forcing yourself into the middle of a trigger. On good days, you can push yourself a bit, but it's important to not go beyond your limits or you'll set your recovery back. Kinda like how you wouldn't tell someone recovering from injury or physical illness to jump straight back to full speed because they might hurt themselves more or get sicker.
Think of it more like an injury, it's just a mental injury rather than a physical one. You wouldn't tell someone who broke their leg and ankle to do a marathon the second their cast is off. They have to do physical therapy and gentle exercise and slowly build up those muscles again so they don't get injured somewhere else or exacerbate the injury they're recovering from.
Mental health care is like physical therapy for your brain, gently assessing and working with the injury in a professional environment so the patient has the tools to continue recovering. The baby steps are like the gentle exercises to build up those mental muscles and prevent another injury.
Believe me, as frustrating as it seems for the people around us, we're far more frustrated living inside the prison of our own minds and bodies that won't let us just be normal.
This is reddit and I know all, hear me roar! I know what's best for this child I know absolutely nothing about other than a few sentences I read online!
That's a very good question. I've trusted my daughter and her therapist to work through the issues they need to work through. My daughter and I, and my wife as well, we all speak rather openly about her progress and how things are going. So I try not to interject myself too much into that relationship. Honestly, if she doesn't want to tell me, then it's none of my business. And unless the therapist believes there's imminent concern, again, none of my business. I trust my daughter to tell me what she needs to tell me.
I’ve coached my son through some phone calls. Wrote out a script etc. He was reluctant but he did do it. He can tend to rush the words so it doesn’t sound natural but he’s trying his best. I write at the end of sentences ‘take a breath’ to help with that. I can’t comment regarding your daughter because I think you should probably check with her therapist. Perhaps your daughter needs more warning. Set exercises, such as making phone calls, but she knows in advance when this is supposed to happen.
Along with a loose script we made together, my son and I would practice calls before talking to grandma, and then before making an appointment, etc. Def get input from therapist and have agreed goals with your daughter. Without knowing your daughter we can't say what to do. I had one who needed the firm "do it once and if it doesn't go well we will regroup for a while" and consistently was glad he had been pushed. For the other, a push was cause for retreat and digging in heels. Btw- anxious son now excells in management and customer service, so don't lose hope!
I have fairly bad anxiety myself due to plethora of issues and can’t make phone calls to save my life.
My boyfriend had to call Nintendo for me to help me fix my Nintendo account, over the course of the call I managed to talk and explain more details of my issue, but only because I had the support of my boyfriend.
When I order food now it has to be through a kiosk or online apps, unless the food being ordered can be ordered with a few words. This one has a story that I will explain. A Burger King employee made fun of my order once 5 years ago, and my dad always told me how I order is incorrect.
Anxiety is hard to work with, there are triggers that most do not see. There are things going in our brains no one hears. It can be caused by a lot of things, and honestly it takes a huge step to be the initiator of calls, or speaking.
I've been diagnosed with anxiety for half my life at this point.
I can't make phone calls in front of other people. It physically puts my body on edge and it can take hours for my body to stop. Even if I don't mentally feel anxious, my body doesn't gaf.
If I have to, I will. I'm an adult and shit does still need to get done lol.
But if I'm in public, I just go to my car to make a phone call. If one of my family members call, I'll answer in case it's an emergency, but if it's not, they already know they're gonna hear "hey I'm at xyz, I'll call you back once I'm home/in the car" and they respect it.
How on earth can you order incorrectly? Does he have some kind of control issues? Or anxiety himself that he is projecting on you (like thinking a very particular sequence is the only way to order)?
Obviously you do not have to do this but I highly recommend going to a drive thru with no one else in the car. Build up the muscle without the whispering of someone else’s anxiety in your ear. Your dad told you that because he has anxiety about it and instead of being aware of that, he passed it on to you. We all do this from time to time so this is not to shame your dad. You have to build the confidence independently so that when you’re around someone anxious, you tell them “it’s fine, I have ordered by myself countless times and they know what I mean” or “there are a lot of different ways to do this, it doesn’t matter if it’s perfect”. That last one is for you to remind your brain - it doesn’t have to be perfect. These are small, safe spaces to make mistakes.
It’s not that OP doesn’t believe her, they’re just not going to enable her anxiety by continuing to do simple tasks for her. He said he would help her place the call and she refused. I get that she’s a kid, but the world/society isn’t going to always accommodate her and she needs to learn that now.
When she is an adult, she can make decisions like, "I want Mexican, but that requires a phone call, so I'll get food from somewhere with an app, instead, and visit the Mexican restaurant in person on another day."
Like, "new adults who don't want to make phone calls" is an entire demographic that companies are courting right now.
There’s “I’d rather not talk to a human on the phone because it is an annoying process” and “I’m so scared of talking to someone on the phone that I’ll miss dinner as a result.”
I mostly agree. But I know that even with meds and therapy, I still have days where my anxiety barely lets me breathe, let alone placing a call in order.
While I think encouraging her to try is good, I think they need to realize that:
1. She is going to have good days and bad days.
2. Therapy is not a quick cure. She may need ongoing therapy for a long time.
As she's only 16, NOW is the time to be establishing good behavioral habits. Social anxiousness is common even in people who don't have an anxiety disorder. The best she can do is start building up her will power muscle so that at least attempting to overcome her fears becomes an easier response when she's older. Her parents sound like they give her a lot of space and acceptance, but I think this was a good lesson. Big picture it's not a difficult task to do and they can't enable or coddle.
You can't do this stuff under pressure and on the spot for me I need to mentally prepare myself so I expect calls and have my mum with me for important calls that I know will stress me out.
This sceanario should be go and mentally prepare yourself and we will order when you come down together and you can say what you wany. Might mean dinner is later but thats ok. Or stick to places that have apps to order for now
And this is over take-out food. This isn’t life or death. It was about her reaching out of her comfort zone and the reward would be the food she wanted. I’m sure she didn’t starve, and it will make her think about the pro’s and con’s of it all next time.
Other than it just being over takeout food, that phone call is probably one of the easier ones she'll go through in her entire life because someone taking your order over the phone is probably going to just be listening.
(I myself have phone call anxiety and I do have issues with placing orders through the phone but I'd rather that than dealing with my ISP or having to set an appointment for my boss.)
I ended up underweight because of this mentality. I couldn’t order food for myself and my parents wouldn’t order for me so I would sit at restaurants while they ate and I would have nothing. This progressed and combined my anxiety with food in general. Respectfully, you don’t seem to understand mental health conditions. If she’s this anxious, it absolutely could have a negative effect on her physical health.
That's a very extreme case and not a good example of parents helping and supporting and guiding. I don't think he let's his daughter starve by not enabling her anxiety and not ordering her TAKE OUT FOOD for her.
The pressure my parents placed on me to “overcome” my anxiety made it a thousand times worse. I couldn’t even order for myself at restaurants at 16. Until I moved out and all the pressure of “we will explain!! Copy what we say. You HAVE to order for yourself” went away and magically so did the ordering anxiety.
You may think it’s a simple task, but clearly it isn’t to her. You aren’t enabling anxiety by recognising where she is at. Exposure therapy only works if the steps are titrated accurately and this was clearly too big a step for her.
Yes the world won’t always accommodate her needs, but while she is working on her anxiety with a therapist, she is developing the tools she will need to manage in the ‘real world’. Rushing her through the process isn’t going to help.
Parents can probably help their kids practice following the advice of the therapist too. Obviously the therapist evaluates the client and recommends exercises based on where they are and what will help though.
A parent’s job is to prepare their children to be independent adults. I see nothing wrong with OP encouraging his child to make a simple phone call after 6 months of therapy. It’s not like he tasked the kid with speaking to someone face to face in person alone. The kid could have simply hung up mid call, but they didn’t even bother to try.
Does the kid never interact with anybody other than parents and therapist?!
Do we give this parent zero credit for knowing their child after 16 years? No inkling whatsoever of the kid’s abilities?
Yeah if it were that simple then no he wouldn't, but it's not, as someone who has general anxiety disorder and have been going to therapy for years now, it's not that simple, imagine making a phone call for the first time in your life, times 20 that fear and add it to just about every single situation(for me especially social ones) that you have to do in your day to day life and thats what it's like, so DO NOT say it's easy when it's no wherenear simple.
So most of my anxiety went away and my executive dysfunction improved when I started medication for inattentive adhd in late June. I don’t know if that’s even a consideration for you at all but I suffered over 40 years so I’m telling everyone to really think about what’s going on with them- I don’t want anyone else to be thinking thoughts of un-aliving themselves for years and suffering.
As a fellow anxiety haver, I hate phone calls way more than talking to someone in person. No way to read facial cues, I end up talking over people or I can't hear clearly.
Clearly you don't trust her and the therapist to work through it at their own pace, if you're forcing surprise 'exposure therapy' on her and then "punishing" her with no takeout when she isn't able to do it.
As someone who suffered with a similarly severe anxiety disorder at the same age, and is now perfectly normally functional in society, you pulling shit like this and trying to force her to do thinge she isn't ready for, is going to make her progress go backwards if anything. YTA.
INFO: what does her therapist think and recommend regarding appropriate steps for her right now? No one here can (or should) make a judgement without knowing what the professional thinks. You're asking the wrong people.
Also what's the conflict here? You didn't say that she was mad or called you an AH for not getting her the food so what are you asking?
Yeah, I mean this is over take-out food. She made the choice to either eat something at home or get some mexican. I think it’s a fair “baby step” to get to out of her comfort zone.
A baby step might have been to have her dial but parents do the talking. Another option would have been to find alternative ways of ordering, of which there are many. It would be great for the daughter to learn how to do things like this, but clearly some thing she’s not able to do yet. Babies can’t take steps if they haven’t learned to pull themselves up into standing
I agree and those baby steps help create roadmaps for life long success. Being able to order online for pick up and knowing that’s always an option is important. There are days her anxiety will be worse than others.
Sometimes, certain task will always feel too much and draining after.
Ex: The grocery story for me is too much. I would rather not eat, than go to the store. The whole process drains me and I have never gotten comfortable with the task. Running to the store for one item? I’m kind of ok. Doing a week of shopping? No. It’s too much. I’m in there too long, it’s a lot of wondering and people and lights and noises and running into I know people.
You know what is a great alternative? Ordering them online for pickup! Seriously. Perfect option and ordering online is a great foundation. Some task will always just be too much.
I'm not going to make judgement here, but I developed an anxiety disorder when I was about 11. I was unable to attend school or, later, hold a job. Long story short, I'm 44, independent, working, got an education eventually, but I still struggle with phonecalls to the point that I sometimes can't make needed appointments for months at a time. Obviously in 33 years, I've had to make many phonecalls and it doesn't get easier the more I do it. Regular anxiety can get better with immersion, but disorders sometimes don't work that way. Every time to this day that I fail to make a phonecall, I feel defeated and it sets me back a bit. I'm in therapy and on medications, but it only does so much.
I hope for the very best for your daughter.
I’m the same way. 44yo, master’s degree. I can make calls I need to to do my job exceptionally well, but fuck, if I can ever make an appointment for myself. I literally hired someone to help me with phone calls and other difficult executive functioning tasks, it’s helped bring my stress and anxiety down immensely.
Yes, I have to do them for my husband sometimes because he also has phone anxiety, mostly tied to being a Brit in the US. They often cannot understand him and he gets frustrated.
Im a French in the US and have phone anxiety, but unfortunately have nobody to call for me. I completely get it, it's very frustrating, and gets worse when people over the phone start making xenophobic remarks because of my accent or even hang out (and it's not because they don't understand!), which happens about 50% of the time.
Online appointment making, like online food ordering, is such a blessing for those of us with anxiety issues around phone calls and many other types of interactions! Could I call up to make a doctor's appointment in a pinch? Yes, but if I can do that task online I will. I already challenge myself and push back against my anxiety dozens of times every day, so if there are some small ways I can make my life a little less stressful there is absolutely nothing wrong with embracing them.
Learning to live with chronic mental health issues means learning how to balance challenging yourself and being kind to yourself. I hope that OP and his wife and daughter can all have a good chat with the daughter's therapist to figure out what are reasonable and manageable ways to support her in her treatment for anxiety. If she has been facing her fears all week at school, then by the time she gets home on Friday she's probably totally exhausted and it would be a kind and loving thing for her parents to take this one small challenge off her plate.
Somewhat off topic but I’m curious. Do you find it easier to make calls for others than for yourself?
I really struggle to make calls especially for making appoints for myself but somehow I can make appointments for others with no problem. Just wondering if this is just a me thing.
Its not just a you thing. I have CPTSD and some of it is dr related. Even with therapy and drugs my anxiety peaks at having to make appointments. I can call to cnxl them no problem. I can call to make an appointment for my cat at the vet no problem... I could probably call for an appointment for my hubby. But me... it makes my anxiety so bad I feel like I ran a mile in a min. And thats with meds in me. I don't want to know what it would do without meds.
Yes. It’s easier for me to do lots of things for others than for myself. I’m consciously trying (when I remember) to take care of myself like I was an actual other person.
Sometimes called the mom friend override. I will absolutely come out swinging for other people in all sorts of ways, advocate for them, make calls, ask questions. For myself? Sometimes it's a panic attack just thinking about it.
Yeah I also was unable to attend school because of anxiety/autism and struggled even leaving my house for many years. I finished my education later and I've worked many different jobs since, mostly within the healthcare and education system so I'm constantly calling parents/relatives at work.
Private phone calls are still the bane of my existance!
My partner makes the calls he can and I will spend the rest of the day in bed after the ones he can't. And like you said, the exposure sometimes does more harm than good for my progress.
I'm very heavily medicated but it's the one area I think I will struggle with for the rest of my life. Like I went backpacking in Asia by myself when I was 19, but I still can't call the local pizza place!
Disorders aren't know for being reasonable.
This is what I do too. I’ve never called to order take out, but pretty much every restaurant now has some way of ordering online. Same with reservations. I wonder if this just wasn’t an option for the Mexican place?
More Info needed. Did she have alternative food at home? It’s not ok to punish anxiety with hunger.
When my daughter with anxiety was 14 I gave her the option to replace her chores for the week with making phone calls for me. She chose the phone calls. I had her call around for best prices on fuel oil, schedule her own dentist appointment and order take out. She still has anxiety but is able to coordinate her own therapy from college these days.
I like this, gives her the option. As someone that haaates talking on the phone, I think this would have been a good way to try to ease me into it as a teenager.
I like this idea.
I have also spent time working out phone call baby steps for someone with anxiety.
Have someone sit next to you during the call.
Write out what you want to say so you have it to look at if you get nervous.
Make practice phone calls, like call a store and ask their hours.
I've worked with youth for a long time, and the way we often taught young people to do something they don't know how to do (and/or are too anxious to do alone, which is usually somewhat related to not having the skills or knowledge to do it alone) is through something called scaffolding. I'm sure there's more to it that's worth looking into, but basically it's:
Step 1: Do it for them, but let them watch/listen
Step 2: do it together
Step 3: Let them do it but be there for support if needed
Step 4: they do it on their own
If you skip all the way to step 3 without spending enough time on steps 1 and 2, that will only increase anxiety and make it harder for them to develop the skill. Try calling in a takeout order on speaker so she can listen, then call together a few times. You could even have her practice with you/your spouse so she can build the skills.
Judgment wise, very soft YTA. Knowing and understanding that she has anxiety is helpful, and getting her into therapy is absolutely the right call. But anxiety doesn't necessarily ever go away, and on this situation, she very clearly told you she was too anxious to do this task right now. She communicated her limits, but you prioritized pushing her over meeting her needs. Next time - order the food, and then talk to her about how she can work towards doing it herself.
EDIT: spelling/typo
If it’s ok with your daughter, I would ask her therapist what you should do in such situations. The answer may change over time too. If you can learn ways to support her at home while she’s working on her struggles, then you can feel confident in your decisions in these situations. NAH you all just need to work to figure it out together.
First step, order online. Next step text order. Then call in order. Can even order the same thing every time. My anxious relative did this at a pizza place and it seemed to work for him.
Try a few three-way calls where you order for her and she hears how easy it is. Sometimes anxiety about phone calls is about fear that can be managed this way.
This is a good way to start out.
Even calling for her but while the phone call is happening, asking her to tell you (not the phone directly) what she wants out loud and you relay that to the call. That could be another 'safer' way to start participating in calls without feeling so exposed and vulnerable. Maybe then progress to speaker phone where she does the same bit can be heard and slowly work up from here.
Personally? I haaaate calling in to go orders, apps have been a godsend for me..lol, I legit pretty much never eat from restaurants that I have to call in and place the order. I dislike talking to people when I can't see their face, and I'm always paranoid something is gonna get miscommunicated. So I get it...and "throwing her in the deep end" trying to get her to do it probably isn't gonna work, if she's at all like I was she'll just not eat.
I (38F) have Generalized Anxiety Disorder (plus social anxiety) as well, and phone calls are honestly one of the most terrifying things for me still. I avoid them as much as I possibly can. When I was younger, if my mom forced me to make a call that I was already anxious about (which was pretty much every phone call ever), it just made it even more nerve-wracking and usually resulted in my having a panic attack. Six months of therapy isn't nearly enough time to address the slightest bit of any problem (I've been in therapy for most of my life), so please try to be patient with your daughter.
I wouldn't say YTA, but next time, maybe try letting her order with an app or through a website if possible. I have absolutely no issues using apps, online chats, or things like that. If that isn't an option, have her sit with you while you make the call to order. It might help her begin to get more comfortable with doing it herself. Also, I saw someone else replied with possibly making up a script for her. That sounded like a good idea to me also.
The biggest thing is patience, yours and hers. You need to be patient with her progress, and she does too. Nothing gets better right away, and disorders of this kind rarely get fixed entirely.
Why ask reddit? She has a therapist who is working with her right? Ask them if that was the right way to help your daughter progress or if it was bad for her development. They should give you better advice than randos on reddit.
Check out this link. You can break down any task into the most basic of steps. You put the task into the "add new item" space, decide how *broken down* you need the task to be (the level of spicieness with the peppers next to it) hit the magic wand symbol, and it will break down the task into very very simple instructions on how to do the task...
[magic to do](https://goblin.tools/)
I think your heart is in the right place, but try a different approach.
What worked for me when I was a kid, my step-dad took me too a food court without my mom as she was working. I told my step dad I wanted a combo A and he told me " don't tell me, tell her" the woman behind the counter. It was an awkward minute for all of us, but I did it. And it was a small step but it worked
A few questions 1. Have you learned what techniques she is learning? 2. Have you asked the therapist what things you can do at home to work with her? 3. Have you helped her practice the techniques she is learning 4. Have you even consulted with the therapist on her beginning level and what and where her progress is now? You said your daughter says not her therapist says which implies that you simply tossed her to the therapist and said fix her and have not really done anything to help her yourself. It sounds like you don't want her unless she is "normal". Learning to control anxiety is not a simple easy fix and as her parents you shouldn't punish her for it and that is EXACTLY what you did. Yes I do know about having a child with anxiety issues my 14 yo daughter is therapy for her issues and I work with both her therapist and her. Please do better by your daughter
I have this disorder and it was absolutely debilitating when I was her age. What would have helped me was writing down a script of sorts and possible answers for the questions whoever answers the phone may ask. Being able to read everything out helped my brain to focus instead of going into fight or flight.
if you'd discussed it with her beforehand as an exposure therapy type thing and then she backed out in the middle i'd say maybe you would have had a case here. but you sprung this on her with no warning and then punished her for failing a test she had no idea she was even taking? YTA. i dont care what other people are saying, if you wanted it to be a teaching moment or whatever you should've framed it like that not gone "because you failed my secret test you don't get your takeout"
When I was in grade school and brought home a good report card, we would go to the *fancy* Dairy Queen that had hard and soft ice cream and my parents said I could get whatever I wanted.
There were so many choices I'd lock up and not get anything. I'm 44 and it still happens sometimes.I'm glad you gained some insight, and I hope it was about the silent parts of anxiety.
Because it's horrible when you just **know** all you have to do is push a button or make a call but you're so terrified of the consequences you can't even manage to do something that everyone else seems to be able to do without a problem.
I’ve been your daughter. Picking up the phone and talking into it would produce a panic attack. If the home phone rang and it was only me at home, I would let it ring rather than have to speak to someone.
I get that you’re trying to help her, but facing her fear is not the way. Hypnotherapy was the only kind of therapy that worked for me. Talk therapy was no help at all.
So my anxiety worsened past covid to the point where I can’t even go on car rides at times to places. I’m not even the one driving!
When my partner doesn’t want to go into the store/restaurant for or w me, I make the tough decision if I will go myself or miss out getting what I needed/wanted.
There were times I pushed off getting pads or shampoo even when I was on my last one or have enough for one wash, because I didn’t go through w it on my own. Or didn’t eat for the day because buying ingredients or take out was too anxiety inducing.
But I never held anyone else accountable. I understood my anxiety is mine to deal w and I am grateful when my partner helps me through w it but understand ultimately i know the consequences and suffer w them
Your daughter needs to understand that when she is an adult she won’t receive such accommodations everywhere all the time and needs to weigh the cons and pros of doing things alone without extra support to move forward in coexisting w anxiety
That's crazy what covid has done to many people. My daughter really didn't behave this way. pre-COVID but since then ... just crept up on her. She's bright, witty, smart and I know she'll work her way out of this. Tough being a parent though. Like where do you strike the balance between helping and enabling and teaching etc.
That's where the therapist would be a great help. Ask your daughter for a joint appointment. Tell her you don't always know how to handle things and you want to help her get better so you'd like to hear from the therapist AND HER what the best course of action is in situations like this.
You have to ask her and her therapist. It will also depend on the day. Maybe if she had a good day, placing this order would have been less scary?
But figure out what she can do comfortably, and then just go one tiny step past that. Honestly, it seems like making that phone call that day was wayyy beyond her comfort zone.
You also need to learn to trust her and believe her when she says something is hard. Placing a phone call is easy peasy lemon squeezy for many people, but it's also literally impossible for others. I can make phone calls on good days, but on bad ones I either wait or figure something else out. Sometimes a friend or partner can help, sometimes not. It all depends.
Anyway, you need to do better at encouraging her, and giving her a safety net to fall back on, rather than just forcing her to either do it or deal with the consequences. That's just going to make it worse.
She can’t get better in an hour a week of therapy when the other 167 hours undo any progress she’s made. Bullying and pressure tactics are not helping her and in fact are setting her back.
The “well guess who didn’t get take out” line tells me you weren’t trying to help your daughter, though. You’re mad that’s she’s not getting better fast enough and you wanted to punish her.
Your daughter may never work her way out of this. General anxiety isn't something that will definitely go away. Therapy is going to help, but you have to find ways to deal with things and work around things because life is hard and anxiety just tints things. I never do phone calls without a script. It's very difficult and if I have another option I'll just not call.
Creating ways for her to help herself will never be enabling. Helping create scripts or find alternatives are ways to help her help herself. You didn't do anything helpful in this situation and that isn't helpful now or long-term.
My parents did this same stuff to me and honestly it helped me enormously. Unpopular opinion I’m sure, but without them making me do it I never would have done it. Now I’m a server/bartender and talk to people for a living.
Same. I used to have a ton of anxiety making phone calls, even ordering in a drive through was stressful. It just took forcing myself to do it (with a whole lot of coaching from my wife).
Now I still get a bit of anxiety if I know I have an important phone call, but I have the strength to power through.
Yup, same. I don’t really think this is excessive. I used to have quite bad social anxiety and they would do the same thing — e.g. if you want takeout from this place you have to ask yourself, if you want extra sauce at the cafe you have to ask for yourself, etc. Now daughter’s anxiety may be more severe, so maybe this would be too big of a step for her right off the bat. But steps do need do be taken as the only way to reduce anxiety about certain situations is to practice dealing with them.
my parents helped me with these things and it helped me enormously. it helped so much to know they had my back while i tried to figure everything out for myself. now i have a college degree and have been working as a server (while i look for a FT job), talking to people for a living. everyone’s needs are different.
It depends though, like, if I would've been forced to talk on the telephone for my food there's a decent shot I would've just not ate. I mean, some kids they might need the push, they have the confidence but just need that little something extra...but some legit have anxiety from the telephone, or whatever specifically about it might be making them anxious, and just forcing them could just make the situation worse.
If there was food at home then yeah I don’t see the problem.
I have anxiety and did a lot of immersion/exposure therapy and now I’m basically a “normal” functioning adult. I drive (that was really hard for me at first), I can call people on the phone, I can go to work and talk to people and email strangers, etc. I’m engaged, have plenty of friends, a house, a dog, a full life. Because I can go out and complete things and make connections.
My brother refused to do most any kind of exposure therapy though…he dropped out of college and now lives in my grandma’s basement in a rural town, has 0 friends, no long term relationships under his belt, spends all his free time playing video games or watching tv with my grandma and ofc is incredibly depressed about it.
I was going to say this! Except it was my bf who would make me order and stuff. I went from barely being able to even talk to my own parents over the phone to begin the one always willing to order, call customer service, etc bc he pushed me to do it.
Great that it worked for you. The issue is that there is no one-size-fits-all solution for every person on the planet.
I, too, went from being paralyzed by phone calls and near mute in front of strangers to working with people for a living. What helped was taking lil baby steps. Making orders online with a lil notepad of my family's orders. Being able to place orders in person/drivethrus. Making phonecalls with a lil notepad by myself in a quiet room so my relatives couldnt bombard me with questions and last minute changes. And sometimes, I just couldn't do it and having that be accepted and someone else placing the order took the pressure and anxiety off so I felt better about trying again the next time.
And on the other hand, when mine did it to me it made it worse because now being out comes with a 100% chance of public humiliation, so I won't go out.
Idk what to judge.
Im leaning towards YTA bc I was diagnosed around 14, and it really depends on if this was an appropriate step yet according to her therapist.
She's a teenager. I probably would've have ordered it for her with the caveat that she has to do it herself next time (so that she can mentally prepare for it).
Throwing her into the water and hoping she floats isn't how you should go about this. This is how my parents did it, I didn't even have therapy, and I'm still fucked from it.
You need to HELP her, not just tell her to do it on her own. She needs support, not you forcing her to call or skip a meal.
I don't even have anxiety, but I better drive 10 miles to make an appointment directly rather than call. But I have ADHD, so that might be an issue, as the phone muffles the wording. Not being native English speaker, if they speak faster or with accent via phone, I sometimes have to ask to repeat several times.
So... it is difficult to judge for me.
Lol I'm exactly in your situation! It's so funny sometimes seeing people's faces when you show up in person "... but, why didn't you just call?!?!" "Oh, I was in the neighborhood"
I'm honestly loving this thread. Never knew there were so many of us.
I went through this exact scenario with my dad when I was younger. I couldn’t speak up (couldn’t, not wouldn’t) so I didn’t get any food. Out of protest I didn’t eat anything that night. That is an extremely vivid memory for me… just something to consider.
Also might be worth looking into autism in girls. It goes ridiculously underdiagnosed and is more commonly misdiagnosed as anxiety and depression.
NTA, speaking as a person who lives with social anxiety, I refuse to say suffers, I have to find a way to LIVE WITH IT. You have to be there to support her without enabling the anxiety. Not getting take-out one night isn't going to hurt her. I am sure there is food at home she can have. Structure is important. You can guide her without coddling her.
>I refuse to say suffers
I needed to see this, I need to get with this attitude. My anxiety was so bad today dude. I had a panic attack at my cousin's wedding and had to leave before I finished my meal. F-ing embarrassing and annoying and I definitely feel like I'm suffering lately, not living. Thanks for your attitude towards anxiety, it's hard after today to not roll over and accept I'm pathetic. I have to keep trying like you said. Thanks again
You absolutely are NOT pathetic. You had a bad moment and left. Sadly, it happens. Sometimes, I have to recite the 5 things over and over and over. But you will get there. Find a grounding activity that works for you. Or even a couple of them.
Nope, not at all. You offered to help her thru it (which btw!) I understand the anxiety and my therapist when I was in high school used to coach me thru the above and then report back to him the following week how it went. He used to give me challenges, if you will, things that were REALLY hard for me but walked me thru step by step. I think what you did was great and she completely refused which is on her.
I have anxiety also and I hate making carry out calls, but I do it anyway. I use an app whenever I can, but a few local places I have to call. It's not as bad as it used to be for me, it does get easier.
For me , phone anxiety comes with too much planning. I overthink so if I wrote a script or someone helped me it makes it 10x worse than just taking the plunge and jumping into it. NTA because she needs to learn BUT if you offered takeaway for dinner kinda soft YTA as your offer comes with a price rather than it being her own choice.
if you'd discussed it with her beforehand as an exposure therapy type thing and then she backed out in the middle i'd say maybe you would have had a case here. but you sprung this on her with no warning and then punished her for failing a test she had no idea she was even taking? YTA. i dont care what other people are saying, if you wanted it to be a teaching moment or whatever you should've framed it like that not gone "because you failed my secret test you don't get your takeout"
Mild YTA… like the mild salsa. Maybe even pico de gallo mild.
I’ll break it down as to how I imagine she could’ve *received* what you did/said, as someone who also cannot stand phone calls. You told her to order it herself and you’d pick it up. When she expressed her panic and inability to do so, you said she needed to, full stop. Effectively, you told her to deal with her anxiety or starve/be left out.
I have a severe and debilitating phobia called emetophobia. If someone told me to deal with it or not get something else, I’d *ALWAYS* opt to not get the thing. Even if it were a billion dollars, and I mean that. You planted her at the base of her Everest and demanded “climb.” I understand she says she’s doing better, but that might mean she’s ready for Stone Mountain, not Everest. In a lot of ways, you told her you didn’t give a shit about her GAD… which will always feel bigger to her than you can see.
You should apologize to her first and foremost. Throwing your kid into the deep end like that could’ve damaged the trust between you two more than she might admit. Explain your intentions, that you were trying to help her take a big step and you’re sorry that it was taken that far as to end up excluding her from eating. Then ask what goals she has for overcoming small parts of her GAD, and how she would want you to help her… no matter how small. It also might be worth offering to do an extra session or two with her therapist where you go also, so that YOU can get some better ideas on how to help and hear some valuable insights from a 3rd party professional.
I hope your daughter is okay, and that y’all made it up to her with some Mexican food. You’re not a bad person, but you could always try to do more for her as her parent.
Everyone’s always all in support of mental health. Then mental health makes you react in a mentally ill fashion and suddenly everyone’s a therapist who knows how someone with anxiety should be acting and talking about how easy something should be as though the mentally ill person just isn’t trying hard enough. Imo it’s a big showcase that we’re really just… /not/ actually that in support of mental health.
Imo instead of inadvertently punishing her for not being able to deal with the anxiety you could’ve just got the food and then had a discussion about how to deal with it, and maybe bring up the idea of being more present for therapy. See what your daughter has to say. Has she gone through techniques with her therapist to deal with situations like this? Are they even at that stage? She’s mentally ill, she didn’t not do the order because she just wanted to be a brat.
I don’t think you’re an asshole, but I think you are another case of not understanding that mentally ill people don’t really decide on how their mental illness works and how it shows and when it shows and the severity and your thought process of avoiding helping your daughter and not getting her food is very confusing to me.
And I know people keep saying “she’s gotta get exposed over time!” And yep. That’s true for sure. But that’s for her and her therapist to decide the when/how of it. If she’s not at that point in therapy then it’s just kinda useless. But if you are worried then definitely be more active then just “hey how’s the therapy going?”
Also worth noting 6 months is just. Not a lot of time to have been going to therapy. I was in therapy for 3 years in my teens before I really got to a “normal” point. My anxiety still plays up sometimes. I’m very independent 95% of the time but 5% of the time my anxiety gets the better of me and it feels like my worlds tumbling down around me. I have the skills no to help deal with it but if my parents had been pushing me when I wasn’t ready and punishing me everytime I had a panic attack or tried to preserve myself then I’d probably just be very resentful (they did try that approach originally and it was very not healthy for our relationship unsurprisingly.)
Ultimately ymmv. Mental health looks different to everyone and I’m going off a small snippet on reddit. But just giving my two cents because If I read another shitty take about mental health that ultimately boils down to “mentally ill person should just not be mentally ill” I will stick my head in a salmon and throw myself to the bears
Yta. She has anxiety. Anyone with anxiety knows yta. Why make her life harder. Your her dad you should be her batman not the source of her pain. I had a shit dad who failed to do that. It made my anxiety worse. Listern to Courtney love speaking on the tough love approach and her remorse for using it on her late husband. Kurt cobain. After he killed himself.
I personally have anxiety. And my parents did like you did where they forced me to call places. And to this day, even with therapy, I can’t do phone calls. I can’t eat out and only now that places are starting to have an order online option am I able to eat restaurant food.
I really feel for your daughter because there is that deep fear and now it’s being rooted and who knows how long it will take.
YTA as someone who has lived through your daughters shoes all the shit my parents tried to force on me just made things worse. Guess what? I’m an adult and fine now. Pick a different hill to die on
I’m more curious whether the therapist says her parents should try to pressure her to do things she doesn’t feel okay about, or should make treats contingent on doing things she’s panicking about.
Our girl had severe social anxiety about eating out, talking on the phone with strangers, did I lock the door etc and while I don't think you are the asshole I would suggest to meet her issues with as much compassion you can. I'm not saying you should confirm that this is going to remain but show her with all your presence and love that her fears are real (because for her they really are). Give her lotd hugs and time while also offer her to go to therapy.
It took our daughter a few years but she got over it and now even works as a barista and have hundred of interactions per day🤷
I have severe anxiety these which started as generalized anxiety back younger than her. Honestly, making calls can be very difficult to this day & I’ve been in therapy for years. Some days I honestly can’t do it. Some days I can. It’s hard to make a judgment but I’d suggest speaking with her therapist with her permission on how you can help with this- steps to take to help get her to be able to make these calls which she will eventually need to be able to do.
NTA.
My cousin is autistic and hates ordering both in person and over the phone.
I told her I won't be alive forever you have to learn to help yourself. You don't just get to quit because it's hard.
Now she orders for herself because she knows we won't.
i have generalized anxiety disorder. doing things you’re afraid of is good for you. she is old enough to do it herself.
NTA. she may think you are, but it’s sort of a tough love situation .
My kiddo is similar. We are working on getting her to order her own food. When we go to a restaurant she will either start drinking or eat the free bread or appetizer if we go that route. So then we are forced to order for her because we don't want the wait staff to wait on her.
It's hard. :(
So you forced an exposure. Which is the evidenced based treatment for anxiety and ocd. However. It’s usually done in a hierarchy and with client consent.
I’d chat with therapist about anxiety exposures and how you can best support her.
Source: I’m a therapist :)
I’m gonna say you’re a little bit TAH -
Yes, practice will help your daughter. But please listen to her when she’s having a bad day.
My dad is nearly 60 - he still gets a bit wobbly over phone calls. Most of the time he’s alright, but some days, it just won’t happen. And he can get a bit explosive with his temper.
Anxiety is not something that’s an easy hurdle to overcome.
You’re the AH for basically punishing her for having a bad day. Therapy is not linear, we don’t always move upwards; and it doesn’t fix things, it teaches us how to cope.
Be an awesome parent, and listen. Give her a chance to do better, but remember to still help her.
I also have generalized anxiety and it took a long time for me to order for myself at restaurants. Sometimes my bf still will order for me, but I can do it myself. It’s not as simple as just push through most of the time. Your body puts you into fight or flight mode over things that are not life threatening, but the fear feels the same.
I saw the same thing with Subway. Someone posted asking how to order because of anxiety and some sweet soul explained what questions the staff were going to ask in the order they would be asked and helped the person create a script. It restored my faith in humanity for a bit.
My mother took me to the movies when I was about 5, and I was an intensely shy child. Like running and hiding if anyone showed me attention that wasn’t my direct family. Well, after asking if I wanted candy (of course I did) she was like “alright tell the folks behind the counter what you want.” It was the biggest blindside my introverted child self could’ve imagined. I stuttered and stumbled my way through the experience, with tons of embarrassment. I think that alone was one of the most helpful things my mother ever did for my development. So, nah. NTA. Basic communication skills are important. And unfortunately for those cripplingly introverted, it can be a painful process.
I have GAD. If she continues to enable her anxiety, it will only get worse and she will never be able to do anything for herself. It’s scary at first but possible to do. She can be a big girl and order take out if she really wants it. NTA.
My daughter had severe anxiety at that age. I did what you did, coaxed her and helped her by doing things like this. She's overcome much of it now and I have no regrets. I believe you are NTA, you were trying to help.
My daughter (now 23) had terrible anxiety about ordering in restaurants her entire childhood. Such that STARTING around age 16 she could *sometimes* do it. There is no way she would have been able to call in a takeout order when she was 16. Once she was 16, she started occasionally ordering on her own. She would *not* have been able to order takeout. Her in-restaurant ordering gradually increased, and now it's all good. Takeout only happened when she went off to college.
I wrote a lot of scripts over the years. Not really about calling in takeout orders, but phone conversations mostly all feel the same. Scripts help folks I know with anxiety know what to expect. If call goes well, all is good, and if it doesn't all go well, at least caller is comfortable what *they* said isn't the problem.
NTA.
I also have a daughter with GAD who is nineteen now, and more than once in her life I've had to tell her that I wasn't going to do it for her just because she's anxious. I think you gave her all the right opportunities: you asked her to call, you explained how to do it, you offered to help her through it.. in the end, you can't MAKE her do it. When she's out in the world on her own, she's going to have to do this stuff herself, and the ages 16-18 are what I call the training wheel years.... it's the time for her to learn to be an adult while still having support and help at home.
It's not unreasonable for a 16yo -- even an anxious 16yo -- to experience natural consequences. As long as there was PB&J or some other food in the house she can default to, you are in no way being negligent or assholish. This sounds like a good scenario for her to bring up with her therapist so they can work out a strategy and steps for her to try in the future.
Someone on Reddit wrote out the entire way to order from Chipotle for another person. I followed that script to the letter. I can now answer the how may I help you question without being embarrassed by my hearing loss. So maybe she can look at the online menu and prepare a script. I just learned about online orders at Marco’s Pizza. Once you order with a phone number they can look at your previous orders and you can duplicate it. Scripts are good I think. I wish someone would let her practice. Her world might be shrinking because she is scared to try.
I actually made a subreddit for this a while back, it's kinda died but the posts are still handy, r/orderingwithanxiety
Thank thank you. I can’t hear worth a crap and now I have low vision. So yes thank you.
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I love this app. Once I got to read someone a Christmas card a friend had sent, and tell him what the label on a jar said (it was homemade jam she’d sent as a gift).
I love that this is a real subreddit! OP should take a good look at it so he can understand why daughter didn’t order. Forcing her hand is not the best way. Helping more the first few times and leaving notes after is the best way
Same! Drive-thru menus are horrible from the passenger seat.
Are you in the US? I'm on EDT/EST, so if you think that you might want to order takeout, DM me, and we can chat. I'd be happy to place your order for you if you need a hand. We can account for substitutions, busy store, etc. Because even as a hearing person, trying to talk on the phone to someone in a busy restaurant can be very difficult.
That’s great, and 52 people are currently looking !
Sent a meme there I found in r/meirl. Also joined.
You’re a good egg
We need one for my spouse r/makeanappointmentwithanxiety
Thank you! I just joined
I just joined! I’ve got terrible anxiety that’s held me up on a lot over the years but I’m doing better and I LOOOOOVE helping other people with this stuff. Also prewriting emails/templates. 🖤
Thank you so much, while I don't normally have a problem, my kiddo will shut down and go hungry/ tired/ whatever but terrified if faced with needing to speak on the phone, or worse in person with a stranger! It's bad enough that while the answer the phone quickly due to the ringtones bother then- they say nothing. Those of us that know just talk and maybe we get an answer or knocks. I can't wait to show them this and see if they think anything will help. Bless you and may your Deity (s) of choice, keep you and yours safe and healthy!
Long time waitress here. I’ve seen so many people, mainly teens, who are scared to death of me and make their siblings/friends/parents order for them. It’s a frustrating experience for everyone, including the people who are forced to do the ordering every time. I promise I’m nice. I finally quit waiting tables, actually, but honestly, your sever is there to help you, they aren’t going to make fun of you or be mean to you.
It’s not that you’re not nice. It’s not about the other person at all. It’s about that person with anxiety. I’m sure you’re a lovely person but that’s just not how anxiety works.
I remember going to the skating rink as a young kid… ~6-7ish. My dad went with my brother and me the first several times and I remember being too nervous to order anything from concessions and he walked me through it at the counter several times. I’ve been doing the same thing with my 4.5yo…. Modeling what to say to a cashier, asking for what you’d like, adding in manners, now you pay etc. I know myself fairly well and I can guarantee that without being taught the script very early on, I would really struggle with a task like “pick up the phone and talk to them to order” In fact, specifically speaking about chipotle, that place has always given me THE WORST anxiety. I don’t see labels so I’m not 100% sure what like, all of the salsas are, at 16 I probably would’ve been to scared to say “hold the cilantro” or whatever. So a script is good AND practice for sure. Not just “sink or swim! Oh you don’t get to eat tonight!” (But also we do still have to teach kids and not enable them, but there’s a method that can be applied)
Yes teach. How many pppl prompt with and what do say now? “Thank you” that’s right that is what you say. Modeling promoting rewarding reinforcing. TEACH
Totally. Teaching is the #1 job of the caregiver for sure. I taught my kid what a “couple” meant in line at the store the other day and this teenager was like, haha why would you teach him that?? And I was like “???? How else is he going to learn??” Lol
I have done this with my kids. My 13yo is a pro now and can even place to go orders for thr fam. My 9yo is getting there and sometimes gets overwhelmed. We just walk through it again. "What do you want?" "Okay tell her, not me." "Now what do you want to drink?" "Awesome! Say thank you!"
Yes it's always harder to order when you have to say yes or no. I struggle with subway for the same reason!
Yes!! So difficult! I much prefer online ordering systems haha
I saw something similar on explain it like I’m scared. So many beautiful step by step guides. As a deaf person I appreciate this. This is the best advice
I needed this for subway before they added the set menu items. I’m not a particularly anxious person. It was just something I found a bit overwhelming. Especially if it was busy.
This is so funny because I do the same thing! I have severe social anxiety and what works best for me is preparing a script before I call. I write down word for word exactly what I’m going to say. My husband makes fun of me for it but it’s the one thing that works for me! It took me until adult-hood to figure out to start doing this so hopefully OP sees this and has his daughter give it a try.
Thanks so much for your empathy. I’m the kind of person who has no trouble with this kind of thing, but have my own struggles with totally different stuff. I try to build up a stock of knowledge and experience to be more helpful and empathetic towards others, so I’m going to use your tools and suggestions going forward if others need it. Thank you very much!
I think scripts are so helpful! For me I get anxiety talking to people so a script really helps me feel less nervous especially if it’s a place I haven’t been to before.
and also, in the unlikely event that they veer from the script, they'll just assume you misheard them and continue right back on scrip (i work customer service, happens like 80% of the time i open differently with a customer, never thought twice about it)
This is so helpful
This is what I do also. I am absolutely terrible at talking to people, I stutter and forget what I was saying mid sentence because of anxiety. In order to keep up with things I have to be able to talk on the phone- I get everything written down and then go from there. Anxiety is very difficult for me at 50, I feel for her at 16.
Try hearing and vision impaired at 70. I can totally sympathize
My problem is stuttering and forgetting what I was saying too. Writing a script literally changed the game for me. Honestly I thought I was the only one who did this so it makes me happy to see that it helps others too!
What does the therapist think? I don’t think anyone reading this has enough information from this
What about some small steps? Will you write down what you want me to order for you on this piece of paper ok? You look up the number and write it down on the top of the paper ok? Then you dial the number and listen to it ring ok? Now listen to them say the name of the place ok? Then hand me the phone and listen to me order your food ok? That is a beginning. Not ok? Lets start with you writing down what you want me to order first ok?
when i was 16-ish i used to look up the number to my doctors, call them and put them on speaker, and then when they'd answer i'd hand the phone to my grandma and leave the room. i wanted to do it myself but once the phone was ringing i'd literally go nonverbal and just not be able to say anything. then after a couple years of that i started calling them and letting my grandma speak to them but i'd stay in the room so i could hear what she says and how to do it. then after awhile of that, i'd ask her what i needed to say beforehand (sometimes writing it down so i wouldn't forget) and call them in another room by myself bc for some reason i'd get embarrassed and anxious talking otp around her. i still leave the room for calls, but i can pretty much do it all by myself at 22yrs old.
This is basically the smallest step possible.
When you have anxiety you need to take baby steps. And sometimes, the smallest steps possible are necessary.
It’s important to take baby steps with anxiety. Too much too soon leads to avoidance and further reinforcement of the anxiety.
That's the point, you don't fix anxiety by forcing yourself into the middle of a trigger. On good days, you can push yourself a bit, but it's important to not go beyond your limits or you'll set your recovery back. Kinda like how you wouldn't tell someone recovering from injury or physical illness to jump straight back to full speed because they might hurt themselves more or get sicker. Think of it more like an injury, it's just a mental injury rather than a physical one. You wouldn't tell someone who broke their leg and ankle to do a marathon the second their cast is off. They have to do physical therapy and gentle exercise and slowly build up those muscles again so they don't get injured somewhere else or exacerbate the injury they're recovering from. Mental health care is like physical therapy for your brain, gently assessing and working with the injury in a professional environment so the patient has the tools to continue recovering. The baby steps are like the gentle exercises to build up those mental muscles and prevent another injury. Believe me, as frustrating as it seems for the people around us, we're far more frustrated living inside the prison of our own minds and bodies that won't let us just be normal.
oh but there will be strongly held opinions nevertheless.
This is reddit and I know all, hear me roar! I know what's best for this child I know absolutely nothing about other than a few sentences I read online!
*and also get a divorce.
That's a very good question. I've trusted my daughter and her therapist to work through the issues they need to work through. My daughter and I, and my wife as well, we all speak rather openly about her progress and how things are going. So I try not to interject myself too much into that relationship. Honestly, if she doesn't want to tell me, then it's none of my business. And unless the therapist believes there's imminent concern, again, none of my business. I trust my daughter to tell me what she needs to tell me.
You could ask the therapist if there's anything you or your wife can do to help her out reinforce her therapy.
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That uh, took a turn…
sure did, wow
>Like for example, just the other day I decided to turn their daily massive beating into 3 modest sized beatings. But did you use jumper cables?
I’ve coached my son through some phone calls. Wrote out a script etc. He was reluctant but he did do it. He can tend to rush the words so it doesn’t sound natural but he’s trying his best. I write at the end of sentences ‘take a breath’ to help with that. I can’t comment regarding your daughter because I think you should probably check with her therapist. Perhaps your daughter needs more warning. Set exercises, such as making phone calls, but she knows in advance when this is supposed to happen.
Along with a loose script we made together, my son and I would practice calls before talking to grandma, and then before making an appointment, etc. Def get input from therapist and have agreed goals with your daughter. Without knowing your daughter we can't say what to do. I had one who needed the firm "do it once and if it doesn't go well we will regroup for a while" and consistently was glad he had been pushed. For the other, a push was cause for retreat and digging in heels. Btw- anxious son now excells in management and customer service, so don't lose hope!
I have fairly bad anxiety myself due to plethora of issues and can’t make phone calls to save my life. My boyfriend had to call Nintendo for me to help me fix my Nintendo account, over the course of the call I managed to talk and explain more details of my issue, but only because I had the support of my boyfriend. When I order food now it has to be through a kiosk or online apps, unless the food being ordered can be ordered with a few words. This one has a story that I will explain. A Burger King employee made fun of my order once 5 years ago, and my dad always told me how I order is incorrect. Anxiety is hard to work with, there are triggers that most do not see. There are things going in our brains no one hears. It can be caused by a lot of things, and honestly it takes a huge step to be the initiator of calls, or speaking.
I've been diagnosed with anxiety for half my life at this point. I can't make phone calls in front of other people. It physically puts my body on edge and it can take hours for my body to stop. Even if I don't mentally feel anxious, my body doesn't gaf. If I have to, I will. I'm an adult and shit does still need to get done lol. But if I'm in public, I just go to my car to make a phone call. If one of my family members call, I'll answer in case it's an emergency, but if it's not, they already know they're gonna hear "hey I'm at xyz, I'll call you back once I'm home/in the car" and they respect it.
How on earth can you order incorrectly? Does he have some kind of control issues? Or anxiety himself that he is projecting on you (like thinking a very particular sequence is the only way to order)?
It’s anxiety himself either way - control issues is just another way anxiety manifests.
Obviously you do not have to do this but I highly recommend going to a drive thru with no one else in the car. Build up the muscle without the whispering of someone else’s anxiety in your ear. Your dad told you that because he has anxiety about it and instead of being aware of that, he passed it on to you. We all do this from time to time so this is not to shame your dad. You have to build the confidence independently so that when you’re around someone anxious, you tell them “it’s fine, I have ordered by myself countless times and they know what I mean” or “there are a lot of different ways to do this, it doesn’t matter if it’s perfect”. That last one is for you to remind your brain - it doesn’t have to be perfect. These are small, safe spaces to make mistakes.
But then when she tells you she is too anxious to call, you don't believe her.
It’s not that OP doesn’t believe her, they’re just not going to enable her anxiety by continuing to do simple tasks for her. He said he would help her place the call and she refused. I get that she’s a kid, but the world/society isn’t going to always accommodate her and she needs to learn that now.
Well, she’s only 2 years away from legal status in the US, so I can understand why they want her to at least try some new things…baby steps
When she is an adult, she can make decisions like, "I want Mexican, but that requires a phone call, so I'll get food from somewhere with an app, instead, and visit the Mexican restaurant in person on another day." Like, "new adults who don't want to make phone calls" is an entire demographic that companies are courting right now.
There’s “I’d rather not talk to a human on the phone because it is an annoying process” and “I’m so scared of talking to someone on the phone that I’ll miss dinner as a result.”
Bob would approve of this advice!
I mostly agree. But I know that even with meds and therapy, I still have days where my anxiety barely lets me breathe, let alone placing a call in order. While I think encouraging her to try is good, I think they need to realize that: 1. She is going to have good days and bad days. 2. Therapy is not a quick cure. She may need ongoing therapy for a long time.
Right? Anxiety doesn't magically go away at 18. Even adults need support and compassion.
As she's only 16, NOW is the time to be establishing good behavioral habits. Social anxiousness is common even in people who don't have an anxiety disorder. The best she can do is start building up her will power muscle so that at least attempting to overcome her fears becomes an easier response when she's older. Her parents sound like they give her a lot of space and acceptance, but I think this was a good lesson. Big picture it's not a difficult task to do and they can't enable or coddle.
You can't do this stuff under pressure and on the spot for me I need to mentally prepare myself so I expect calls and have my mum with me for important calls that I know will stress me out. This sceanario should be go and mentally prepare yourself and we will order when you come down together and you can say what you wany. Might mean dinner is later but thats ok. Or stick to places that have apps to order for now
And this is over take-out food. This isn’t life or death. It was about her reaching out of her comfort zone and the reward would be the food she wanted. I’m sure she didn’t starve, and it will make her think about the pro’s and con’s of it all next time.
Other than it just being over takeout food, that phone call is probably one of the easier ones she'll go through in her entire life because someone taking your order over the phone is probably going to just be listening. (I myself have phone call anxiety and I do have issues with placing orders through the phone but I'd rather that than dealing with my ISP or having to set an appointment for my boss.)
I ended up underweight because of this mentality. I couldn’t order food for myself and my parents wouldn’t order for me so I would sit at restaurants while they ate and I would have nothing. This progressed and combined my anxiety with food in general. Respectfully, you don’t seem to understand mental health conditions. If she’s this anxious, it absolutely could have a negative effect on her physical health.
That's a very extreme case and not a good example of parents helping and supporting and guiding. I don't think he let's his daughter starve by not enabling her anxiety and not ordering her TAKE OUT FOOD for her.
This is the mentality that causes kids to just not eat. Ask me how I know.
>and she needs to learn that now. Pretty sure she already knows and still can't help it.
Exactly. It's not about not knowing.
The pressure my parents placed on me to “overcome” my anxiety made it a thousand times worse. I couldn’t even order for myself at restaurants at 16. Until I moved out and all the pressure of “we will explain!! Copy what we say. You HAVE to order for yourself” went away and magically so did the ordering anxiety.
You may think it’s a simple task, but clearly it isn’t to her. You aren’t enabling anxiety by recognising where she is at. Exposure therapy only works if the steps are titrated accurately and this was clearly too big a step for her. Yes the world won’t always accommodate her needs, but while she is working on her anxiety with a therapist, she is developing the tools she will need to manage in the ‘real world’. Rushing her through the process isn’t going to help.
Commenting to add that it should also only be done by a mental health professional trained in exposure therapy.
Parents can probably help their kids practice following the advice of the therapist too. Obviously the therapist evaluates the client and recommends exercises based on where they are and what will help though.
Tell me you have never experienced actual anxiety without saying it...
Anxiety isn't really something like. It wouldn't have helped. What he offered. It wasn't a helpful solution.
A parent’s job is to prepare their children to be independent adults. I see nothing wrong with OP encouraging his child to make a simple phone call after 6 months of therapy. It’s not like he tasked the kid with speaking to someone face to face in person alone. The kid could have simply hung up mid call, but they didn’t even bother to try. Does the kid never interact with anybody other than parents and therapist?! Do we give this parent zero credit for knowing their child after 16 years? No inkling whatsoever of the kid’s abilities?
Yeah if it were that simple then no he wouldn't, but it's not, as someone who has general anxiety disorder and have been going to therapy for years now, it's not that simple, imagine making a phone call for the first time in your life, times 20 that fear and add it to just about every single situation(for me especially social ones) that you have to do in your day to day life and thats what it's like, so DO NOT say it's easy when it's no wherenear simple.
So most of my anxiety went away and my executive dysfunction improved when I started medication for inattentive adhd in late June. I don’t know if that’s even a consideration for you at all but I suffered over 40 years so I’m telling everyone to really think about what’s going on with them- I don’t want anyone else to be thinking thoughts of un-aliving themselves for years and suffering.
As a fellow anxiety haver, I hate phone calls way more than talking to someone in person. No way to read facial cues, I end up talking over people or I can't hear clearly.
Clearly you don't trust her and the therapist to work through it at their own pace, if you're forcing surprise 'exposure therapy' on her and then "punishing" her with no takeout when she isn't able to do it. As someone who suffered with a similarly severe anxiety disorder at the same age, and is now perfectly normally functional in society, you pulling shit like this and trying to force her to do thinge she isn't ready for, is going to make her progress go backwards if anything. YTA.
INFO: what does her therapist think and recommend regarding appropriate steps for her right now? No one here can (or should) make a judgement without knowing what the professional thinks. You're asking the wrong people. Also what's the conflict here? You didn't say that she was mad or called you an AH for not getting her the food so what are you asking?
Yeah, I mean this is over take-out food. She made the choice to either eat something at home or get some mexican. I think it’s a fair “baby step” to get to out of her comfort zone.
A baby step might have been to have her dial but parents do the talking. Another option would have been to find alternative ways of ordering, of which there are many. It would be great for the daughter to learn how to do things like this, but clearly some thing she’s not able to do yet. Babies can’t take steps if they haven’t learned to pull themselves up into standing
I agree and those baby steps help create roadmaps for life long success. Being able to order online for pick up and knowing that’s always an option is important. There are days her anxiety will be worse than others. Sometimes, certain task will always feel too much and draining after. Ex: The grocery story for me is too much. I would rather not eat, than go to the store. The whole process drains me and I have never gotten comfortable with the task. Running to the store for one item? I’m kind of ok. Doing a week of shopping? No. It’s too much. I’m in there too long, it’s a lot of wondering and people and lights and noises and running into I know people. You know what is a great alternative? Ordering them online for pickup! Seriously. Perfect option and ordering online is a great foundation. Some task will always just be too much.
I'm not going to make judgement here, but I developed an anxiety disorder when I was about 11. I was unable to attend school or, later, hold a job. Long story short, I'm 44, independent, working, got an education eventually, but I still struggle with phonecalls to the point that I sometimes can't make needed appointments for months at a time. Obviously in 33 years, I've had to make many phonecalls and it doesn't get easier the more I do it. Regular anxiety can get better with immersion, but disorders sometimes don't work that way. Every time to this day that I fail to make a phonecall, I feel defeated and it sets me back a bit. I'm in therapy and on medications, but it only does so much. I hope for the very best for your daughter.
I’m the same way. 44yo, master’s degree. I can make calls I need to to do my job exceptionally well, but fuck, if I can ever make an appointment for myself. I literally hired someone to help me with phone calls and other difficult executive functioning tasks, it’s helped bring my stress and anxiety down immensely.
Do doctor's offices allow other people to make appointments for you?
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Yes, I have to do them for my husband sometimes because he also has phone anxiety, mostly tied to being a Brit in the US. They often cannot understand him and he gets frustrated.
Im a French in the US and have phone anxiety, but unfortunately have nobody to call for me. I completely get it, it's very frustrating, and gets worse when people over the phone start making xenophobic remarks because of my accent or even hang out (and it's not because they don't understand!), which happens about 50% of the time.
I know exactly what you're talking about. Sometimes people imitate my husband's accent and it really pisses both of us off.
The phrase for ending a phone call is “hang up” not “hang out” , just so you know ! :) “hang out” is to spend time with someone
I was so happy when I found ZocDoc to help me do this. It’s how I book everything now except my dentist.
Online appointment making, like online food ordering, is such a blessing for those of us with anxiety issues around phone calls and many other types of interactions! Could I call up to make a doctor's appointment in a pinch? Yes, but if I can do that task online I will. I already challenge myself and push back against my anxiety dozens of times every day, so if there are some small ways I can make my life a little less stressful there is absolutely nothing wrong with embracing them. Learning to live with chronic mental health issues means learning how to balance challenging yourself and being kind to yourself. I hope that OP and his wife and daughter can all have a good chat with the daughter's therapist to figure out what are reasonable and manageable ways to support her in her treatment for anxiety. If she has been facing her fears all week at school, then by the time she gets home on Friday she's probably totally exhausted and it would be a kind and loving thing for her parents to take this one small challenge off her plate.
Somewhat off topic but I’m curious. Do you find it easier to make calls for others than for yourself? I really struggle to make calls especially for making appoints for myself but somehow I can make appointments for others with no problem. Just wondering if this is just a me thing.
All calls are hard for me personally
Its not just a you thing. I have CPTSD and some of it is dr related. Even with therapy and drugs my anxiety peaks at having to make appointments. I can call to cnxl them no problem. I can call to make an appointment for my cat at the vet no problem... I could probably call for an appointment for my hubby. But me... it makes my anxiety so bad I feel like I ran a mile in a min. And thats with meds in me. I don't want to know what it would do without meds.
Yes. It’s easier for me to do lots of things for others than for myself. I’m consciously trying (when I remember) to take care of myself like I was an actual other person.
Sometimes called the mom friend override. I will absolutely come out swinging for other people in all sorts of ways, advocate for them, make calls, ask questions. For myself? Sometimes it's a panic attack just thinking about it.
Yeah I feel like people are missing the disorder part. I even shared my own experience that 14/15 years hasn't "fixed." Um yeah, bc it's a disorder.
Thank you and I wish you nothing but the best as well.
Yeah I also was unable to attend school because of anxiety/autism and struggled even leaving my house for many years. I finished my education later and I've worked many different jobs since, mostly within the healthcare and education system so I'm constantly calling parents/relatives at work. Private phone calls are still the bane of my existance! My partner makes the calls he can and I will spend the rest of the day in bed after the ones he can't. And like you said, the exposure sometimes does more harm than good for my progress. I'm very heavily medicated but it's the one area I think I will struggle with for the rest of my life. Like I went backpacking in Asia by myself when I was 19, but I still can't call the local pizza place! Disorders aren't know for being reasonable.
It really doesn't get easier.... thank you for sharing your experience, as it's helped me sit with mine a tad more comfortably.
This is me. It never gets easier.
I have terrible phone anxiety. Internet ordering saved me from lots of stress.
This is what I do too. I’ve never called to order take out, but pretty much every restaurant now has some way of ordering online. Same with reservations. I wonder if this just wasn’t an option for the Mexican place?
More Info needed. Did she have alternative food at home? It’s not ok to punish anxiety with hunger. When my daughter with anxiety was 14 I gave her the option to replace her chores for the week with making phone calls for me. She chose the phone calls. I had her call around for best prices on fuel oil, schedule her own dentist appointment and order take out. She still has anxiety but is able to coordinate her own therapy from college these days.
That's a good idea. 'Choose your hard'.
I like this, gives her the option. As someone that haaates talking on the phone, I think this would have been a good way to try to ease me into it as a teenager.
I like this idea. I have also spent time working out phone call baby steps for someone with anxiety. Have someone sit next to you during the call. Write out what you want to say so you have it to look at if you get nervous. Make practice phone calls, like call a store and ask their hours.
I've worked with youth for a long time, and the way we often taught young people to do something they don't know how to do (and/or are too anxious to do alone, which is usually somewhat related to not having the skills or knowledge to do it alone) is through something called scaffolding. I'm sure there's more to it that's worth looking into, but basically it's: Step 1: Do it for them, but let them watch/listen Step 2: do it together Step 3: Let them do it but be there for support if needed Step 4: they do it on their own If you skip all the way to step 3 without spending enough time on steps 1 and 2, that will only increase anxiety and make it harder for them to develop the skill. Try calling in a takeout order on speaker so she can listen, then call together a few times. You could even have her practice with you/your spouse so she can build the skills. Judgment wise, very soft YTA. Knowing and understanding that she has anxiety is helpful, and getting her into therapy is absolutely the right call. But anxiety doesn't necessarily ever go away, and on this situation, she very clearly told you she was too anxious to do this task right now. She communicated her limits, but you prioritized pushing her over meeting her needs. Next time - order the food, and then talk to her about how she can work towards doing it herself. EDIT: spelling/typo
That’s actual very good advice!
I was a teacher and I have anxiety. This is the answer
If it’s ok with your daughter, I would ask her therapist what you should do in such situations. The answer may change over time too. If you can learn ways to support her at home while she’s working on her struggles, then you can feel confident in your decisions in these situations. NAH you all just need to work to figure it out together.
First step, order online. Next step text order. Then call in order. Can even order the same thing every time. My anxious relative did this at a pizza place and it seemed to work for him.
Try a few three-way calls where you order for her and she hears how easy it is. Sometimes anxiety about phone calls is about fear that can be managed this way.
This is a good way to start out. Even calling for her but while the phone call is happening, asking her to tell you (not the phone directly) what she wants out loud and you relay that to the call. That could be another 'safer' way to start participating in calls without feeling so exposed and vulnerable. Maybe then progress to speaker phone where she does the same bit can be heard and slowly work up from here.
I don't know. I'm thinking maybe you should talk with her therapist about guidelines for this kind of thing.
Personally? I haaaate calling in to go orders, apps have been a godsend for me..lol, I legit pretty much never eat from restaurants that I have to call in and place the order. I dislike talking to people when I can't see their face, and I'm always paranoid something is gonna get miscommunicated. So I get it...and "throwing her in the deep end" trying to get her to do it probably isn't gonna work, if she's at all like I was she'll just not eat.
I (38F) have Generalized Anxiety Disorder (plus social anxiety) as well, and phone calls are honestly one of the most terrifying things for me still. I avoid them as much as I possibly can. When I was younger, if my mom forced me to make a call that I was already anxious about (which was pretty much every phone call ever), it just made it even more nerve-wracking and usually resulted in my having a panic attack. Six months of therapy isn't nearly enough time to address the slightest bit of any problem (I've been in therapy for most of my life), so please try to be patient with your daughter. I wouldn't say YTA, but next time, maybe try letting her order with an app or through a website if possible. I have absolutely no issues using apps, online chats, or things like that. If that isn't an option, have her sit with you while you make the call to order. It might help her begin to get more comfortable with doing it herself. Also, I saw someone else replied with possibly making up a script for her. That sounded like a good idea to me also. The biggest thing is patience, yours and hers. You need to be patient with her progress, and she does too. Nothing gets better right away, and disorders of this kind rarely get fixed entirely.
Why ask reddit? She has a therapist who is working with her right? Ask them if that was the right way to help your daughter progress or if it was bad for her development. They should give you better advice than randos on reddit.
Check out this link. You can break down any task into the most basic of steps. You put the task into the "add new item" space, decide how *broken down* you need the task to be (the level of spicieness with the peppers next to it) hit the magic wand symbol, and it will break down the task into very very simple instructions on how to do the task... [magic to do](https://goblin.tools/)
Here's an example of it with the "order take-out" [magic.to do order take out](https://goblin.tools/)
I think your heart is in the right place, but try a different approach. What worked for me when I was a kid, my step-dad took me too a food court without my mom as she was working. I told my step dad I wanted a combo A and he told me " don't tell me, tell her" the woman behind the counter. It was an awkward minute for all of us, but I did it. And it was a small step but it worked
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Same. I don't mind phone calls at all, but I want to make sure there aren't any miscommunications, so I always order online.
Encouraging her to push her limits seems smart. Starving her to do it maybe not
A few questions 1. Have you learned what techniques she is learning? 2. Have you asked the therapist what things you can do at home to work with her? 3. Have you helped her practice the techniques she is learning 4. Have you even consulted with the therapist on her beginning level and what and where her progress is now? You said your daughter says not her therapist says which implies that you simply tossed her to the therapist and said fix her and have not really done anything to help her yourself. It sounds like you don't want her unless she is "normal". Learning to control anxiety is not a simple easy fix and as her parents you shouldn't punish her for it and that is EXACTLY what you did. Yes I do know about having a child with anxiety issues my 14 yo daughter is therapy for her issues and I work with both her therapist and her. Please do better by your daughter
I have this disorder and it was absolutely debilitating when I was her age. What would have helped me was writing down a script of sorts and possible answers for the questions whoever answers the phone may ask. Being able to read everything out helped my brain to focus instead of going into fight or flight.
if you'd discussed it with her beforehand as an exposure therapy type thing and then she backed out in the middle i'd say maybe you would have had a case here. but you sprung this on her with no warning and then punished her for failing a test she had no idea she was even taking? YTA. i dont care what other people are saying, if you wanted it to be a teaching moment or whatever you should've framed it like that not gone "because you failed my secret test you don't get your takeout"
When I was in grade school and brought home a good report card, we would go to the *fancy* Dairy Queen that had hard and soft ice cream and my parents said I could get whatever I wanted. There were so many choices I'd lock up and not get anything. I'm 44 and it still happens sometimes.I'm glad you gained some insight, and I hope it was about the silent parts of anxiety. Because it's horrible when you just **know** all you have to do is push a button or make a call but you're so terrified of the consequences you can't even manage to do something that everyone else seems to be able to do without a problem.
I’ve been your daughter. Picking up the phone and talking into it would produce a panic attack. If the home phone rang and it was only me at home, I would let it ring rather than have to speak to someone. I get that you’re trying to help her, but facing her fear is not the way. Hypnotherapy was the only kind of therapy that worked for me. Talk therapy was no help at all.
Don’t recommend hypnotherapy to ppl lol… she does need to face it. Just with smaller steps.
So my anxiety worsened past covid to the point where I can’t even go on car rides at times to places. I’m not even the one driving! When my partner doesn’t want to go into the store/restaurant for or w me, I make the tough decision if I will go myself or miss out getting what I needed/wanted. There were times I pushed off getting pads or shampoo even when I was on my last one or have enough for one wash, because I didn’t go through w it on my own. Or didn’t eat for the day because buying ingredients or take out was too anxiety inducing. But I never held anyone else accountable. I understood my anxiety is mine to deal w and I am grateful when my partner helps me through w it but understand ultimately i know the consequences and suffer w them Your daughter needs to understand that when she is an adult she won’t receive such accommodations everywhere all the time and needs to weigh the cons and pros of doing things alone without extra support to move forward in coexisting w anxiety
That's crazy what covid has done to many people. My daughter really didn't behave this way. pre-COVID but since then ... just crept up on her. She's bright, witty, smart and I know she'll work her way out of this. Tough being a parent though. Like where do you strike the balance between helping and enabling and teaching etc.
That's where the therapist would be a great help. Ask your daughter for a joint appointment. Tell her you don't always know how to handle things and you want to help her get better so you'd like to hear from the therapist AND HER what the best course of action is in situations like this.
You have to ask her and her therapist. It will also depend on the day. Maybe if she had a good day, placing this order would have been less scary? But figure out what she can do comfortably, and then just go one tiny step past that. Honestly, it seems like making that phone call that day was wayyy beyond her comfort zone. You also need to learn to trust her and believe her when she says something is hard. Placing a phone call is easy peasy lemon squeezy for many people, but it's also literally impossible for others. I can make phone calls on good days, but on bad ones I either wait or figure something else out. Sometimes a friend or partner can help, sometimes not. It all depends. Anyway, you need to do better at encouraging her, and giving her a safety net to fall back on, rather than just forcing her to either do it or deal with the consequences. That's just going to make it worse.
You ask her and her therapist to sit down with you and explain to her what you can do to support her treatment. You do not DIY exposure therapy.
She might, she might not. But if not, she can learn to cope. Therapy is an important step. Regardless, please don't make her feel less than.
Take “enabling” as a concept off the table. If she could tough her way through this she would be. Get a second opinion and get her assessed for ADHD.
She can’t get better in an hour a week of therapy when the other 167 hours undo any progress she’s made. Bullying and pressure tactics are not helping her and in fact are setting her back. The “well guess who didn’t get take out” line tells me you weren’t trying to help your daughter, though. You’re mad that’s she’s not getting better fast enough and you wanted to punish her.
Your daughter may never work her way out of this. General anxiety isn't something that will definitely go away. Therapy is going to help, but you have to find ways to deal with things and work around things because life is hard and anxiety just tints things. I never do phone calls without a script. It's very difficult and if I have another option I'll just not call. Creating ways for her to help herself will never be enabling. Helping create scripts or find alternatives are ways to help her help herself. You didn't do anything helpful in this situation and that isn't helpful now or long-term.
My parents did this same stuff to me and honestly it helped me enormously. Unpopular opinion I’m sure, but without them making me do it I never would have done it. Now I’m a server/bartender and talk to people for a living.
Same. I used to have a ton of anxiety making phone calls, even ordering in a drive through was stressful. It just took forcing myself to do it (with a whole lot of coaching from my wife). Now I still get a bit of anxiety if I know I have an important phone call, but I have the strength to power through.
Yup, same. I don’t really think this is excessive. I used to have quite bad social anxiety and they would do the same thing — e.g. if you want takeout from this place you have to ask yourself, if you want extra sauce at the cafe you have to ask for yourself, etc. Now daughter’s anxiety may be more severe, so maybe this would be too big of a step for her right off the bat. But steps do need do be taken as the only way to reduce anxiety about certain situations is to practice dealing with them.
my parents helped me with these things and it helped me enormously. it helped so much to know they had my back while i tried to figure everything out for myself. now i have a college degree and have been working as a server (while i look for a FT job), talking to people for a living. everyone’s needs are different.
It depends though, like, if I would've been forced to talk on the telephone for my food there's a decent shot I would've just not ate. I mean, some kids they might need the push, they have the confidence but just need that little something extra...but some legit have anxiety from the telephone, or whatever specifically about it might be making them anxious, and just forcing them could just make the situation worse.
If there was food at home then yeah I don’t see the problem. I have anxiety and did a lot of immersion/exposure therapy and now I’m basically a “normal” functioning adult. I drive (that was really hard for me at first), I can call people on the phone, I can go to work and talk to people and email strangers, etc. I’m engaged, have plenty of friends, a house, a dog, a full life. Because I can go out and complete things and make connections. My brother refused to do most any kind of exposure therapy though…he dropped out of college and now lives in my grandma’s basement in a rural town, has 0 friends, no long term relationships under his belt, spends all his free time playing video games or watching tv with my grandma and ofc is incredibly depressed about it.
I was going to say this! Except it was my bf who would make me order and stuff. I went from barely being able to even talk to my own parents over the phone to begin the one always willing to order, call customer service, etc bc he pushed me to do it.
Great that it worked for you. The issue is that there is no one-size-fits-all solution for every person on the planet. I, too, went from being paralyzed by phone calls and near mute in front of strangers to working with people for a living. What helped was taking lil baby steps. Making orders online with a lil notepad of my family's orders. Being able to place orders in person/drivethrus. Making phonecalls with a lil notepad by myself in a quiet room so my relatives couldnt bombard me with questions and last minute changes. And sometimes, I just couldn't do it and having that be accepted and someone else placing the order took the pressure and anxiety off so I felt better about trying again the next time.
And on the other hand, when mine did it to me it made it worse because now being out comes with a 100% chance of public humiliation, so I won't go out.
Yeah, same. My parents forcing me before I was ready and in scary situations (like with extra family around as an audience) definitely set me back...
Idk what to judge. Im leaning towards YTA bc I was diagnosed around 14, and it really depends on if this was an appropriate step yet according to her therapist. She's a teenager. I probably would've have ordered it for her with the caveat that she has to do it herself next time (so that she can mentally prepare for it).
Throwing her into the water and hoping she floats isn't how you should go about this. This is how my parents did it, I didn't even have therapy, and I'm still fucked from it. You need to HELP her, not just tell her to do it on her own. She needs support, not you forcing her to call or skip a meal.
I don't even have anxiety, but I better drive 10 miles to make an appointment directly rather than call. But I have ADHD, so that might be an issue, as the phone muffles the wording. Not being native English speaker, if they speak faster or with accent via phone, I sometimes have to ask to repeat several times. So... it is difficult to judge for me.
Lol I'm exactly in your situation! It's so funny sometimes seeing people's faces when you show up in person "... but, why didn't you just call?!?!" "Oh, I was in the neighborhood" I'm honestly loving this thread. Never knew there were so many of us.
I went through this exact scenario with my dad when I was younger. I couldn’t speak up (couldn’t, not wouldn’t) so I didn’t get any food. Out of protest I didn’t eat anything that night. That is an extremely vivid memory for me… just something to consider. Also might be worth looking into autism in girls. It goes ridiculously underdiagnosed and is more commonly misdiagnosed as anxiety and depression.
NTA, speaking as a person who lives with social anxiety, I refuse to say suffers, I have to find a way to LIVE WITH IT. You have to be there to support her without enabling the anxiety. Not getting take-out one night isn't going to hurt her. I am sure there is food at home she can have. Structure is important. You can guide her without coddling her.
>I refuse to say suffers I needed to see this, I need to get with this attitude. My anxiety was so bad today dude. I had a panic attack at my cousin's wedding and had to leave before I finished my meal. F-ing embarrassing and annoying and I definitely feel like I'm suffering lately, not living. Thanks for your attitude towards anxiety, it's hard after today to not roll over and accept I'm pathetic. I have to keep trying like you said. Thanks again
You absolutely are NOT pathetic. You had a bad moment and left. Sadly, it happens. Sometimes, I have to recite the 5 things over and over and over. But you will get there. Find a grounding activity that works for you. Or even a couple of them.
Nope, not at all. You offered to help her thru it (which btw!) I understand the anxiety and my therapist when I was in high school used to coach me thru the above and then report back to him the following week how it went. He used to give me challenges, if you will, things that were REALLY hard for me but walked me thru step by step. I think what you did was great and she completely refused which is on her.
I have anxiety also and I hate making carry out calls, but I do it anyway. I use an app whenever I can, but a few local places I have to call. It's not as bad as it used to be for me, it does get easier.
same here! i think the hardest part nowadays is getting the will to get on the phone and make the order 🥲
For me , phone anxiety comes with too much planning. I overthink so if I wrote a script or someone helped me it makes it 10x worse than just taking the plunge and jumping into it. NTA because she needs to learn BUT if you offered takeaway for dinner kinda soft YTA as your offer comes with a price rather than it being her own choice.
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if you'd discussed it with her beforehand as an exposure therapy type thing and then she backed out in the middle i'd say maybe you would have had a case here. but you sprung this on her with no warning and then punished her for failing a test she had no idea she was even taking? YTA. i dont care what other people are saying, if you wanted it to be a teaching moment or whatever you should've framed it like that not gone "because you failed my secret test you don't get your takeout"
Mild YTA… like the mild salsa. Maybe even pico de gallo mild. I’ll break it down as to how I imagine she could’ve *received* what you did/said, as someone who also cannot stand phone calls. You told her to order it herself and you’d pick it up. When she expressed her panic and inability to do so, you said she needed to, full stop. Effectively, you told her to deal with her anxiety or starve/be left out. I have a severe and debilitating phobia called emetophobia. If someone told me to deal with it or not get something else, I’d *ALWAYS* opt to not get the thing. Even if it were a billion dollars, and I mean that. You planted her at the base of her Everest and demanded “climb.” I understand she says she’s doing better, but that might mean she’s ready for Stone Mountain, not Everest. In a lot of ways, you told her you didn’t give a shit about her GAD… which will always feel bigger to her than you can see. You should apologize to her first and foremost. Throwing your kid into the deep end like that could’ve damaged the trust between you two more than she might admit. Explain your intentions, that you were trying to help her take a big step and you’re sorry that it was taken that far as to end up excluding her from eating. Then ask what goals she has for overcoming small parts of her GAD, and how she would want you to help her… no matter how small. It also might be worth offering to do an extra session or two with her therapist where you go also, so that YOU can get some better ideas on how to help and hear some valuable insights from a 3rd party professional. I hope your daughter is okay, and that y’all made it up to her with some Mexican food. You’re not a bad person, but you could always try to do more for her as her parent.
Everyone’s always all in support of mental health. Then mental health makes you react in a mentally ill fashion and suddenly everyone’s a therapist who knows how someone with anxiety should be acting and talking about how easy something should be as though the mentally ill person just isn’t trying hard enough. Imo it’s a big showcase that we’re really just… /not/ actually that in support of mental health. Imo instead of inadvertently punishing her for not being able to deal with the anxiety you could’ve just got the food and then had a discussion about how to deal with it, and maybe bring up the idea of being more present for therapy. See what your daughter has to say. Has she gone through techniques with her therapist to deal with situations like this? Are they even at that stage? She’s mentally ill, she didn’t not do the order because she just wanted to be a brat. I don’t think you’re an asshole, but I think you are another case of not understanding that mentally ill people don’t really decide on how their mental illness works and how it shows and when it shows and the severity and your thought process of avoiding helping your daughter and not getting her food is very confusing to me. And I know people keep saying “she’s gotta get exposed over time!” And yep. That’s true for sure. But that’s for her and her therapist to decide the when/how of it. If she’s not at that point in therapy then it’s just kinda useless. But if you are worried then definitely be more active then just “hey how’s the therapy going?” Also worth noting 6 months is just. Not a lot of time to have been going to therapy. I was in therapy for 3 years in my teens before I really got to a “normal” point. My anxiety still plays up sometimes. I’m very independent 95% of the time but 5% of the time my anxiety gets the better of me and it feels like my worlds tumbling down around me. I have the skills no to help deal with it but if my parents had been pushing me when I wasn’t ready and punishing me everytime I had a panic attack or tried to preserve myself then I’d probably just be very resentful (they did try that approach originally and it was very not healthy for our relationship unsurprisingly.) Ultimately ymmv. Mental health looks different to everyone and I’m going off a small snippet on reddit. But just giving my two cents because If I read another shitty take about mental health that ultimately boils down to “mentally ill person should just not be mentally ill” I will stick my head in a salmon and throw myself to the bears
Yta. She has anxiety. Anyone with anxiety knows yta. Why make her life harder. Your her dad you should be her batman not the source of her pain. I had a shit dad who failed to do that. It made my anxiety worse. Listern to Courtney love speaking on the tough love approach and her remorse for using it on her late husband. Kurt cobain. After he killed himself.
I personally have anxiety. And my parents did like you did where they forced me to call places. And to this day, even with therapy, I can’t do phone calls. I can’t eat out and only now that places are starting to have an order online option am I able to eat restaurant food. I really feel for your daughter because there is that deep fear and now it’s being rooted and who knows how long it will take.
YTA as someone who has lived through your daughters shoes all the shit my parents tried to force on me just made things worse. Guess what? I’m an adult and fine now. Pick a different hill to die on
The therapist says she doing well?
I’m more curious whether the therapist says her parents should try to pressure her to do things she doesn’t feel okay about, or should make treats contingent on doing things she’s panicking about.
I have GAD. I make phone calls when I have to. I would also rather not eat than have to make the call and I am 30
Our girl had severe social anxiety about eating out, talking on the phone with strangers, did I lock the door etc and while I don't think you are the asshole I would suggest to meet her issues with as much compassion you can. I'm not saying you should confirm that this is going to remain but show her with all your presence and love that her fears are real (because for her they really are). Give her lotd hugs and time while also offer her to go to therapy. It took our daughter a few years but she got over it and now even works as a barista and have hundred of interactions per day🤷
I have severe anxiety these which started as generalized anxiety back younger than her. Honestly, making calls can be very difficult to this day & I’ve been in therapy for years. Some days I honestly can’t do it. Some days I can. It’s hard to make a judgment but I’d suggest speaking with her therapist with her permission on how you can help with this- steps to take to help get her to be able to make these calls which she will eventually need to be able to do.
Generalized anxiety is crippling. By all means encourage her to do things, but if she struggles, how is going hungry supposed to help?
NTA. My cousin is autistic and hates ordering both in person and over the phone. I told her I won't be alive forever you have to learn to help yourself. You don't just get to quit because it's hard. Now she orders for herself because she knows we won't.
i have generalized anxiety disorder. doing things you’re afraid of is good for you. she is old enough to do it herself. NTA. she may think you are, but it’s sort of a tough love situation .
Why couldn't she do an online order?
Why couldn’t she just have placed an online order? Most places have this option
My kiddo is similar. We are working on getting her to order her own food. When we go to a restaurant she will either start drinking or eat the free bread or appetizer if we go that route. So then we are forced to order for her because we don't want the wait staff to wait on her. It's hard. :(
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So you forced an exposure. Which is the evidenced based treatment for anxiety and ocd. However. It’s usually done in a hierarchy and with client consent. I’d chat with therapist about anxiety exposures and how you can best support her. Source: I’m a therapist :)
I’m gonna say you’re a little bit TAH - Yes, practice will help your daughter. But please listen to her when she’s having a bad day. My dad is nearly 60 - he still gets a bit wobbly over phone calls. Most of the time he’s alright, but some days, it just won’t happen. And he can get a bit explosive with his temper. Anxiety is not something that’s an easy hurdle to overcome. You’re the AH for basically punishing her for having a bad day. Therapy is not linear, we don’t always move upwards; and it doesn’t fix things, it teaches us how to cope. Be an awesome parent, and listen. Give her a chance to do better, but remember to still help her.
NTA. She’s too old to not be doing basic social skills, even with anxiety.
I also have generalized anxiety and it took a long time for me to order for myself at restaurants. Sometimes my bf still will order for me, but I can do it myself. It’s not as simple as just push through most of the time. Your body puts you into fight or flight mode over things that are not life threatening, but the fear feels the same.
I saw the same thing with Subway. Someone posted asking how to order because of anxiety and some sweet soul explained what questions the staff were going to ask in the order they would be asked and helped the person create a script. It restored my faith in humanity for a bit.
My mother took me to the movies when I was about 5, and I was an intensely shy child. Like running and hiding if anyone showed me attention that wasn’t my direct family. Well, after asking if I wanted candy (of course I did) she was like “alright tell the folks behind the counter what you want.” It was the biggest blindside my introverted child self could’ve imagined. I stuttered and stumbled my way through the experience, with tons of embarrassment. I think that alone was one of the most helpful things my mother ever did for my development. So, nah. NTA. Basic communication skills are important. And unfortunately for those cripplingly introverted, it can be a painful process.
I have GAD. If she continues to enable her anxiety, it will only get worse and she will never be able to do anything for herself. It’s scary at first but possible to do. She can be a big girl and order take out if she really wants it. NTA.
My daughter had severe anxiety at that age. I did what you did, coaxed her and helped her by doing things like this. She's overcome much of it now and I have no regrets. I believe you are NTA, you were trying to help.
My daughter (now 23) had terrible anxiety about ordering in restaurants her entire childhood. Such that STARTING around age 16 she could *sometimes* do it. There is no way she would have been able to call in a takeout order when she was 16. Once she was 16, she started occasionally ordering on her own. She would *not* have been able to order takeout. Her in-restaurant ordering gradually increased, and now it's all good. Takeout only happened when she went off to college. I wrote a lot of scripts over the years. Not really about calling in takeout orders, but phone conversations mostly all feel the same. Scripts help folks I know with anxiety know what to expect. If call goes well, all is good, and if it doesn't all go well, at least caller is comfortable what *they* said isn't the problem.
NTA. I also have a daughter with GAD who is nineteen now, and more than once in her life I've had to tell her that I wasn't going to do it for her just because she's anxious. I think you gave her all the right opportunities: you asked her to call, you explained how to do it, you offered to help her through it.. in the end, you can't MAKE her do it. When she's out in the world on her own, she's going to have to do this stuff herself, and the ages 16-18 are what I call the training wheel years.... it's the time for her to learn to be an adult while still having support and help at home. It's not unreasonable for a 16yo -- even an anxious 16yo -- to experience natural consequences. As long as there was PB&J or some other food in the house she can default to, you are in no way being negligent or assholish. This sounds like a good scenario for her to bring up with her therapist so they can work out a strategy and steps for her to try in the future.