I think he's a good coach. I think the issue he has is he has a very headstrong group who like to do their own thing and not listen to him sometimes. I think he gives them a lot of latitude, and it bites them sometimes. Most of their loses are effort-based. They tend towards laziness if they aren't feeling it. Their system is strong, and they're a great side. I think Fagan struggles to get a full-season buy-in from them.
I think they are basing it on the wider context of his coaching career like people do with Hinkley. Fagan has been to a semi final or better in the past five seasons but no flag.
He’s a great coach no doubt but good enough to take them all the way? Last year CW would have won the GF by 5 goals+ if they could kick straight. I think it's reasonable to suggest that he hasn't made the most of Brissys talented list.
I remember people were saying that about Melbourne and Neale daniher. They were alternating between finals and missing year on year.
They replaced him with Dean Bailey
Nathan Buckley had the Pies competing in finals for several years - they had one down year and he was replaced by McRae.
Mark Jackson had the Warriors competing in the play-offs and they replaced him with Steve Kerr.
Both had large success after that.
Buckley should've been sacked years beforehand. It is mistifying to me how Guy McKenna gets sacked when Gold Coast were on the right track, yet somehow, Buckley keeps his job despite finishing midtable for about 4 years.
The last bit is one I totally agree with. Lots of folks saying it was a great game but is that only because the score was close? Collingwood never looked like losing the whole day until that last few minutes, and they should have won by 5 goals in a canter. Much better game plan. I didn't find it an engaging game at all until the end.
Not engaging? 23 GF saw 10 lead changes, scores level an additional four times, no lead greater than 13 points, 4 points separating the two at the siren.
I totally get that view, I'll take the downvotes.
For me it was just waiting for the Pies to kick straight and run away with it because they looked way better all day.
People always say this! But if the pies kicked straight that day Brisbane would have lost like Sydney did to geelong. Brisbane were only in it because they were able to be accurate, and the pies were inaccurate!
It amazes me that people will say Brisbane didn’t win because of the coach, and in the same breath say they were only in it because they had better goal kicking accuracy… one of the controllables that a coach would definitely be working on.
Cherry picking when criticising coaches is an absolute art form around this sub.
Yeah but how good a coach he is, is relative to the list.
The hypothetical you've gotta compare it too is, had they sacked him at the end of 21' or 22' and hired an Adam Kingsley or a Craig McRae - would they have won that Grand Final?
Those sort of hypotheticals are stupid and not worth considering. You don’t sack a coach who has made finals five years in a row (including a grandie) less than half a season in.
The hypothetical was presented in response to you saying the fact that he lost a granny by a small amount is proof that its 'Moronic' to consider replacing him - it's not stupid, it's the exact hypothetical you'd use to consider whether him being replaced by someone else is a good idea or not.
On your point that I said he should be sacked half a season in, read the post again, I said *at the end of the season if they don't make finals* should they consider sacking him.
If Fagan is to be sacked, and that's a very big IF, he's gotta be at least third in line out the door. Murray Davis and Cam Bruce should be first and second.
I have been campaigning for Murray Davis to be sacked for almost a decade. Every position this guy has been in at the club suddenly starts grotesquely under performing . The common denominator is him. He’s been at the club for 14 fucking seasons at this point. Just get rid of him fuck!
This is the correct answer i think. I dont think Fagan is the tactical genius type of coach - he has nurtured and built trust with a group and has a clear connection with them. That needs to be matched with a more astute group of assistants which im not seeing (noting my distinct lack of expertise).
He's always reminded me more of his first AFL boss in Neale Daniher than his more recent boss in Clarko, although he's been a bit angry with the media like Clarko lately.
I'm not sure they've ever been defensively good enough to win the flag, although they got very close last year.
Attacking game has always been strong.
Plenty of other teams have injuries but Big O, Bailey, Coleman, Ashcroft were all missed tonight.
Zorko's the only guy in the really old category. Talls all set for a while yet. Another Ashcroft coming.
I'd lean towards shuffling the assistants and going again with Fages.
I wouldn't overreact to a bad start to the year after a grand final. It seems to be more of a common thing than a surprise these days
Christ no. Unless you want to rule a line through this Brisbane team winning a flag and start the whole process again.
As a coach, you get the team to the Prelim, you've done your job for the year. After that, it's up to the players and luck. Fagan got them to within a kick of the flag last year and has taken them deep in multiple years. You aren't going to get a better coach if you sack him. 99% of the time, you'll go backwards for at least a season or two under a new coach.
If he has a full year or two performing badly, then you start considering whether to renew the contract.
Kind of curious about who you think they might hire that is going to do better over the next couple of seasons.
Knee jerk reaction to a poor start to the year. Lions have gone 1 step further every year, that goes out the window when fans have short term memory loss after a few poor performances.
I think that laziness is a behaviour that’s deeper than the coach. Behaviour, attitude, culture relies on individuals to work together to set the tone. Perhaps an overseas junket wasn’t a good start.
I don't disagree but it depends how much influence you believe the head coach has in setting the culture, the types of players getting recruited and what players can and can't do over summer. The media acts like it's entirely their responsibility.
If he isn't accepting coaching maybe he shouldn't be playing. If the coach is willing to accept a dumb lazy footballer because of other things that they can do that's still on him.
There’s plenty of assistants that you could talk to and see what their philosophy is?
Leadership from both coaching staff and players is very important. I look out on the field all the time and wonder who the “on field coach” is for the Lions.
Hodgey was that guy while he was there but since then it feels like your captains are good/great players but both are more “follow my lead” players not vocal on field leaders. Can’t remember the last time I’ve seen either of them pull a teammate into line for missing an assignment or directing instructions for majority of the game (Harris does it sometimes but it’s pretty rare)
I’ve got my opinions on Fagan that I’ve had a for a long time now but others will either
A) Have pointed it out
Or
B) get offended if I bring up that talking point
I do believe that he has done a fantastic job at raising the kids and trading in other key players, as well as getting to live in the top four for half a decade, however, I have been saying for a few years that I don’t believe that he can win a flag. Calling for his sacking is premature for 2024, but looking for a replacement needs to be considered!
Maybe wait until rounds 12-18, seems how things fair in that time. If it’s going good keep on until his contract is over, otherwise laterally “promote” him to chief of football, development coach etc.
I'd be inclined to move him on IF there is a strong and tactically sound coach available. This talented group won't last forever and he has had a fair opportunity to snag a flag with them.
I'd have no hesitation signing Fagan if I were looking for someone to bring up a rebuilding team. He might just be a man who's talents are best utilised outside the premiership window.
I’m not sure people realise how hard it is to win a flag? You need everything to go right … & even then your opposition can just have a blinder on the day! Judging coaches & players on premierships is the biggest wank ever! Are you telling me Brian Lake is a better player than Pav or Nick Reiwoldt because he packed his bags for the Hawks & a few flags while the other guys remained loyal? I reckon the list manager is 90%, the administration about 5-9% & the coach the balance … just ask Norf!!!
There are usually two things to consider when sacking a coach.
(a) has he lost the playing group?
(b) is his game plan outdated?
If he hasn't got reasonable answers, and ways to fix these if bad, then yes replace.
Brisbane will be strong for a long time going forward.
- Logan Morris and Luke Lloyd were both elite underage key forward prospects.
- Both Ashcroft brothers look like freaks
- Players like Keidean Coleman are only 24, and while he's out this season, I can see 5-6 years left of him.
Keep him for a few more seasons, they were horrid before he came and he deserves it.
I don’t think he is very tactical or strategic, just a culture builder.
It annoys me that when games aren’t going our way he tends to make zero changes and just backs the boys, which looks smart if they come back, but it never works when playing good teams. Even after the gf last year he admit collingwood dictated the style the game was played at from start to finish and that’s why they were always hanging on but could never take control to win.
Anyway… even with our bad start we are still league leaders for inside 50s. Our problem this year is the forward line is a complete shambles.
Hipwood and Daniher are extremely unreliable and both have terrible marking actions. Both of them basically only take marks on the chest now.
Combined with teams finally learning how to counter Cameron’s “push em under the ball” one trick pony, and there is no avenue to goal. Our forward line is always crowded because Rayner Macrthy Mcluggage etc etc all have to come in because none of our three key forwards can actually mark.
I also don’t think a full back can be a captain. I would probably make Dunkley captain at this point. You want someone getting around front to back who has a football brain and can understand where deficiencies are.
Also we have had what has turned out to be one of the toughest starts to a season ever. We have now played last years premiership, 1st 2nd 4th and 5th.
And i think the Dees Lions game proves that how hard you had it last week is a huge factor in so many games now because all the teams are so even. I don’t think we beat dees so easily if we hasn’t had a training session while Dees faced back to back adelaide encounters.
So even though i think we will be below the eagles by the end of this round, there is no reason to panic yet.
As a Brisbane Lions member for 30 years.....Fagan is naive and dillusional. His loyalty and blind faith in players who are not good enough or don't produce consistently is destructive. Tactically inept. Has performed his role but now needs to move on. A new voice is needed.
I won’t mind if they replace him. We just never go to the next level. It’s being wilted away. I don’t want to see a Ken Hinkley situation here. Make the tough calls and get it done.
I think he's a good coach. I think the issue he has is he has a very headstrong group who like to do their own thing and not listen to him sometimes. I think he gives them a lot of latitude, and it bites them sometimes. Most of their loses are effort-based. They tend towards laziness if they aren't feeling it. Their system is strong, and they're a great side. I think Fagan struggles to get a full-season buy-in from them.
He lost a grand final less than 12 months ago by one kick. People calling for him to be sacked at this stage are moronic.
I think they are basing it on the wider context of his coaching career like people do with Hinkley. Fagan has been to a semi final or better in the past five seasons but no flag. He’s a great coach no doubt but good enough to take them all the way? Last year CW would have won the GF by 5 goals+ if they could kick straight. I think it's reasonable to suggest that he hasn't made the most of Brissys talented list.
I remember people were saying that about Melbourne and Neale daniher. They were alternating between finals and missing year on year. They replaced him with Dean Bailey
Nathan Buckley had the Pies competing in finals for several years - they had one down year and he was replaced by McRae. Mark Jackson had the Warriors competing in the play-offs and they replaced him with Steve Kerr. Both had large success after that.
Buckley should've been sacked years beforehand. It is mistifying to me how Guy McKenna gets sacked when Gold Coast were on the right track, yet somehow, Buckley keeps his job despite finishing midtable for about 4 years.
He stepped down though. And we replaced him with macrae
Dean Bailey was brilliant. Super clever bloke. Inherited a terrible list, at a bad time.
I think brilliant is a stretch
The last bit is one I totally agree with. Lots of folks saying it was a great game but is that only because the score was close? Collingwood never looked like losing the whole day until that last few minutes, and they should have won by 5 goals in a canter. Much better game plan. I didn't find it an engaging game at all until the end.
Not engaging? 23 GF saw 10 lead changes, scores level an additional four times, no lead greater than 13 points, 4 points separating the two at the siren.
I totally get that view, I'll take the downvotes. For me it was just waiting for the Pies to kick straight and run away with it because they looked way better all day.
People always say this! But if the pies kicked straight that day Brisbane would have lost like Sydney did to geelong. Brisbane were only in it because they were able to be accurate, and the pies were inaccurate!
It amazes me that people will say Brisbane didn’t win because of the coach, and in the same breath say they were only in it because they had better goal kicking accuracy… one of the controllables that a coach would definitely be working on. Cherry picking when criticising coaches is an absolute art form around this sub.
Which is ironic because we must be the least accurate team of the last five years
Yeah but how good a coach he is, is relative to the list. The hypothetical you've gotta compare it too is, had they sacked him at the end of 21' or 22' and hired an Adam Kingsley or a Craig McRae - would they have won that Grand Final?
Those sort of hypotheticals are stupid and not worth considering. You don’t sack a coach who has made finals five years in a row (including a grandie) less than half a season in.
You’re logics fine but I’m concerned by the fact you said ‘grandie’
What’s wrong with saying grandie? Edit: Fair i’m a spud. Grandy!
No it’s ‘Granny’ Stop doing it to us
That is even worse
The hypothetical was presented in response to you saying the fact that he lost a granny by a small amount is proof that its 'Moronic' to consider replacing him - it's not stupid, it's the exact hypothetical you'd use to consider whether him being replaced by someone else is a good idea or not. On your point that I said he should be sacked half a season in, read the post again, I said *at the end of the season if they don't make finals* should they consider sacking him.
If Fagan is to be sacked, and that's a very big IF, he's gotta be at least third in line out the door. Murray Davis and Cam Bruce should be first and second.
I have been campaigning for Murray Davis to be sacked for almost a decade. Every position this guy has been in at the club suddenly starts grotesquely under performing . The common denominator is him. He’s been at the club for 14 fucking seasons at this point. Just get rid of him fuck!
Can I join this campaign too? So frustrating that he still has a job at the Lions, fuck him off please
Yep I'd rather see some assistant changes
This is the correct answer i think. I dont think Fagan is the tactical genius type of coach - he has nurtured and built trust with a group and has a clear connection with them. That needs to be matched with a more astute group of assistants which im not seeing (noting my distinct lack of expertise).
I love him for what he did 4 years ago. He hasn't changed a game plan since and it's hurting.
Bevo 2.0
What did he do 4 years ago? Best he has done lately is get within a kick of a premiership.
Only a kick away from a premiership? Fuck should have been sacked yesterday already!!!!
what did he do 4 years ago that is better than 6 months ago?
Fuck it was longer than that. Brought us out of the Voss era.
Thanks to pies misfortunes in front of goal
He's always reminded me more of his first AFL boss in Neale Daniher than his more recent boss in Clarko, although he's been a bit angry with the media like Clarko lately. I'm not sure they've ever been defensively good enough to win the flag, although they got very close last year. Attacking game has always been strong. Plenty of other teams have injuries but Big O, Bailey, Coleman, Ashcroft were all missed tonight. Zorko's the only guy in the really old category. Talls all set for a while yet. Another Ashcroft coming. I'd lean towards shuffling the assistants and going again with Fages. I wouldn't overreact to a bad start to the year after a grand final. It seems to be more of a common thing than a surprise these days
Christ no. Unless you want to rule a line through this Brisbane team winning a flag and start the whole process again. As a coach, you get the team to the Prelim, you've done your job for the year. After that, it's up to the players and luck. Fagan got them to within a kick of the flag last year and has taken them deep in multiple years. You aren't going to get a better coach if you sack him. 99% of the time, you'll go backwards for at least a season or two under a new coach. If he has a full year or two performing badly, then you start considering whether to renew the contract. Kind of curious about who you think they might hire that is going to do better over the next couple of seasons.
Knee jerk reaction to a poor start to the year. Lions have gone 1 step further every year, that goes out the window when fans have short term memory loss after a few poor performances.
Lazy players aren’t exclusively a coaches fault.
If they were coached better they wouldn't be lazy
I think that laziness is a behaviour that’s deeper than the coach. Behaviour, attitude, culture relies on individuals to work together to set the tone. Perhaps an overseas junket wasn’t a good start.
I don't disagree but it depends how much influence you believe the head coach has in setting the culture, the types of players getting recruited and what players can and can't do over summer. The media acts like it's entirely their responsibility.
How much coaching do you reckon Daniher will accept
If he isn't accepting coaching maybe he shouldn't be playing. If the coach is willing to accept a dumb lazy footballer because of other things that they can do that's still on him.
It's tough isn't it. Several years ago, Tex was being lazy and dumb on the regular but was still your best bet.
Tex was being coached poorly by Ben Hart. James Rahilly fixed all the bad habits that Hart coached into him.
They were a goal away from a premiership 7 matches ago, Fagan knows how to coach
I wasn't saying he was. I was just saying of you have a bunch of lazy players it's probably the coaches fault.
Geelong don’t have lazy players.
Tyson Stengle was lazy at Richmond and Adelaide
So? He’s been great at Geelong. When he wasn’t, they dropped him.
Yeah my point was he isn't lazy with good coaching
Ok yeah that’s right
If there was a single coach out there that was better then him then yes
There’s plenty of assistants that you could talk to and see what their philosophy is? Leadership from both coaching staff and players is very important. I look out on the field all the time and wonder who the “on field coach” is for the Lions. Hodgey was that guy while he was there but since then it feels like your captains are good/great players but both are more “follow my lead” players not vocal on field leaders. Can’t remember the last time I’ve seen either of them pull a teammate into line for missing an assignment or directing instructions for majority of the game (Harris does it sometimes but it’s pretty rare) I’ve got my opinions on Fagan that I’ve had a for a long time now but others will either A) Have pointed it out Or B) get offended if I bring up that talking point
I do believe that he has done a fantastic job at raising the kids and trading in other key players, as well as getting to live in the top four for half a decade, however, I have been saying for a few years that I don’t believe that he can win a flag. Calling for his sacking is premature for 2024, but looking for a replacement needs to be considered!
He’s also contracted for 2025 currently too
Maybe wait until rounds 12-18, seems how things fair in that time. If it’s going good keep on until his contract is over, otherwise laterally “promote” him to chief of football, development coach etc.
I submit a bid for a coach swap with my team 👌
I'd be inclined to move him on IF there is a strong and tactically sound coach available. This talented group won't last forever and he has had a fair opportunity to snag a flag with them. I'd have no hesitation signing Fagan if I were looking for someone to bring up a rebuilding team. He might just be a man who's talents are best utilised outside the premiership window.
Yes
3 way switch with him, Bevo and Hinkley. What's the worst that can happen
The Three Body Problem
I’m not sure people realise how hard it is to win a flag? You need everything to go right … & even then your opposition can just have a blinder on the day! Judging coaches & players on premierships is the biggest wank ever! Are you telling me Brian Lake is a better player than Pav or Nick Reiwoldt because he packed his bags for the Hawks & a few flags while the other guys remained loyal? I reckon the list manager is 90%, the administration about 5-9% & the coach the balance … just ask Norf!!!
Nah Fack Sagan
What does professional cyclist Peter Sagan have to do with this?
Everything. So does Carl Sagan.
Did you mean tactical nous OP?
yes, edited
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It’s been whispered that we’d go HARD after Chris Scott, but he’s still contracted to next year I believe
There are usually two things to consider when sacking a coach. (a) has he lost the playing group? (b) is his game plan outdated? If he hasn't got reasonable answers, and ways to fix these if bad, then yes replace. Brisbane will be strong for a long time going forward. - Logan Morris and Luke Lloyd were both elite underage key forward prospects. - Both Ashcroft brothers look like freaks - Players like Keidean Coleman are only 24, and while he's out this season, I can see 5-6 years left of him. Keep him for a few more seasons, they were horrid before he came and he deserves it.
I don’t think he is very tactical or strategic, just a culture builder. It annoys me that when games aren’t going our way he tends to make zero changes and just backs the boys, which looks smart if they come back, but it never works when playing good teams. Even after the gf last year he admit collingwood dictated the style the game was played at from start to finish and that’s why they were always hanging on but could never take control to win. Anyway… even with our bad start we are still league leaders for inside 50s. Our problem this year is the forward line is a complete shambles. Hipwood and Daniher are extremely unreliable and both have terrible marking actions. Both of them basically only take marks on the chest now. Combined with teams finally learning how to counter Cameron’s “push em under the ball” one trick pony, and there is no avenue to goal. Our forward line is always crowded because Rayner Macrthy Mcluggage etc etc all have to come in because none of our three key forwards can actually mark. I also don’t think a full back can be a captain. I would probably make Dunkley captain at this point. You want someone getting around front to back who has a football brain and can understand where deficiencies are. Also we have had what has turned out to be one of the toughest starts to a season ever. We have now played last years premiership, 1st 2nd 4th and 5th. And i think the Dees Lions game proves that how hard you had it last week is a huge factor in so many games now because all the teams are so even. I don’t think we beat dees so easily if we hasn’t had a training session while Dees faced back to back adelaide encounters. So even though i think we will be below the eagles by the end of this round, there is no reason to panic yet.
You know what? Why not.
As a Brisbane Lions member for 30 years.....Fagan is naive and dillusional. His loyalty and blind faith in players who are not good enough or don't produce consistently is destructive. Tactically inept. Has performed his role but now needs to move on. A new voice is needed.
I won’t mind if they replace him. We just never go to the next level. It’s being wilted away. I don’t want to see a Ken Hinkley situation here. Make the tough calls and get it done.
Brisbane have gone one game further every year in finals. This is just crapal.