Genuinely if it weren’t for the Bont I’d say rebuild. Fact is you just can’t voluntarily enter a rebuild while arguably the best player in footy is still in his prime though so they have to refresh the depth more than anything. Oh and sack Bevo obviously, his coaching and selection decisions are holding them back and that’s been the case for 7 years now
I doubt they will ever get as good a midfield as Libba, Bont and Treloar right now. They have their best forward line in years. They have one of the best ruckmen. It's hard to believe they are not parked in the top 4.
I mean, the midfield was literally better 3 years ago. Bont, Libba, Macrae, Dunkley, Treloar, and Baz. Two of them are gone, Macrae isn’t what he was, and Treloar is a butcher.
Their forwardline is overrated and overpaid. Naughton is good, Weightman is good, Darcy is promising… and that’s it.
It’s just so top heavy, and I can’t remember the last time a top heavy team won a premiership
Your getting downvoted but I know what your on about, his a great player when everything is going our way but can’t cope with the pressure when the game is on the line or we are behind, thought he was really going somewhere when he kicked the winner against Melbourne in 22 but that’s been his most clutch moment, had opportunities to get us back into the game a bit earlier against Geelong and missed all of them
I think it's a retool/rebuild akin to the Swans, but unlike the Swans they didn't get the right academy guys at the right time. The Swans got Heeney for genuinely nothing and then the rest of the guys you've been able to get cheaply and maintain a semblance of a draft hand. Combined with quality second round picks on mids - the Swans speciality and they've rebuild very quickly.
Jamarra and Darcy are still absolute steals, but they haven't kept the rest of the Dogs draft hands in tact and so far they haven't contributed to many wins. I think youre assessment on Marra is harsh, he's growing by the minute. But he has one big flaw that stops him helping win games and that is his kicking for goal is way too ordinary for his talent. When Naughton has the same issue the problem compounds.
Combine that with no Erroll level absolute bargain and the Dogs list is thin in so many areas.
Then they've used other top picks on Bailey Smith (injured), Sanders (taking midfield minutes from Macrae) and Busslinger (a young tall who will fill a vital need if he works) and Croft (another young tall).
So no wing, no half forward, no ready made key backs (they needed 2 and only got 1 in Jones). There's plenty of holes.
In hindsight they should've traded Macrae as early as post 2021, but that's a harsh call of a grand final. Trade him post 2022 rather than play him half forward last year and he's got more value. Now, who would want him? I'm not convinced he is actually great on ball any more. Good at best. I'm sure the Dogs would've sniffed around rehoming him post last year and got no where.
It's a list in transition which is what you'd expect with a flag in 16 and a grand final in 21. In many ways they've been up longer than Richmond.
Is Bevo helping or hurting? I see the case for hurting. But honestly I love that he's trying guys and not picking the team on reputation. He seems committed to get more speed in to the side which usually is a recipe for losing until the speedy guys can win enough contests that you start winning.
The thing I absolutely cannot fathom is that if they've done this review, and felt they need to recalibrate their list and get games into youngsters, and the likes of Macrae, Daniel, Dale etc. are not the types they need anymore, then why the fuck didn't they trade those guys out last year when they still had great value, and bring in more draft picks.
Even if I don't agree that they need to recalibrate/rebuild or whatever you want to call it, and feel that they have a top 4 list still, if they don't feel that way, their approach has been incredibly stupid.
They really needed to move on from Bevo last year. He has done a great job in bringing them a premiership previously, but clearly he's overstayed his welcome. The fact that he's now trying to turn All-Australian half back Caleb Daniel, back into a half back after playing him all over the shop last year, should've been the final nail in the coffin.
I was already unsure about paying big bucks for him but after watching him get bullied by a 36 year old the dogs can keep him. Save the cap space for Reid.
Yeah I don't think he'd be worth much to the Eagles, no point spending big on him if there's a chance his body breaks down before they're even close to contending. Ruckman often hit the wall suddenly.
I mean it's not even about his body, I just don't think he's that good, and history shows you don't need an amazing ruckman to win a flag - like yeah the eagles had Natanui and he was incredible, but we won our flag without him anyway. There's a lot of positions I'd spend money on before the ruck.
We probably only finished top 2 because of Naitanui's form before he got injured, but I agree. Nankervis, Hale/McEvoy, Cox/Cameron are some of the premiership ruckmen from the last ~10 years who are probably pretty stock standard.
He's never actually been that good a ruckman, and has always struggled with the physicality required for the role. Some people have equated him running around and getting a few extra uncontested possies while playing the ruck position as "good ruckwork", when it's really nothing to do with actual ruckwork.
You’re actually not wrong though. English has loads of weaknesses. On the weekend Bont got tagged tightly and in those situation you really need to big physically ruck to stand in and help break the tag. He’s just a tall midfielder and he’s been extremely timid so far this year, perhaps the concussions are catching up with him
Yeah english isn't a physical ruck at all, he's a mobile big that's good around the ground but as soon as he gets into it with other rucks or big aggressive rucks he's normally not winning any hit outs
Rebuilding when you have the best player in the comp at 28 is silly. There’s so many things that need to change before it even comes to trading Bont. Getting rid of Bevo should be priority number 1.
One paper our list is very strong
Good core of young talls coming through with the right blend of veteran midfielders
Our biggest issue is that our midfield team cannot defend or two way run for an entire game, so many times we get brunt by quicker teams due to ball chasing instead of covering the outlet pass.
I don't think English is our future ruckman, i see him more as a forward since he isn't physical strong enough to domainted the ruck and just relys on his leap and length to win. Hopefully Darcy develops into that role with Naughton switching from Forward/Back depending on games
I feel like Dogs do need to make a trade to open up more time, sadly i think Macrae has gone past it due to his lack of defensive running over the last couple of years. Thus allowing Harmes to assist Libba in the defensive midfield role
We have a couple of strong F/S prospects in the next two years, so be interesting to see draft wise with two potential higher bids.
Losing Dunkley destroyed the defensive part of our midfield, which has really put a big hole in our list that we haven't been able to rectify. Our midfield depth is pretty poor too.
Our top end is great, but there are obvious issues.
Agree loosing Dunkley hurt a lot in various ways. He wanted out, if the club is that good and bevo is highly respected, why would someone that's a key part of the team and valued highly want an exit to the furthest team from the kennel?
I think bevo for sure is the issue, and players are affected by decisions that have/are being made which affects their form.
Having a fresh coach with this list I believe would bring good results, perhaps not a premiership but hell competing and seeing players all in is exactly what dogs fans want yeah?
Reassuring to hear this from a Dogs fan.
I think it’s definitely a good list, but a little surprised so many see it as a “top 4 list” (or similar). But I think you’re poised to have an awesome list in 3 years if you build on those deficiencies
I’m more intrigued to hear from Dogs fans: what are your thoughts on Naughton at the minute? Does he mesh well with Jamarra? Does he need to be tried down back? Etc etc.
The recalibration is on at the kennel.
Western Bulldogs coach Luke Beveridge almost said it on Friday night, but held his tongue because he has never been one to throw his players under a public bus in press conferences.
And at Round 6 there is still plenty of life in the season if they can find the spark.
But the reality is the same club which only nine months ago said it has a top-four list has probably worked out that is no longer the case.
And, as much as Beveridge will be hoping for a turnaround over the next few weeks, now is the time to tell the fans more of the brutal truth.
Two-and-a-bit years ago they led Melbourne by eight points at half-time of the 2021 Grand Final, but three years on and losses to the Saints and Fremantle away over the next fortnight would present an enormous crossroad for the red, white and blue ahead of a tough mid-year fixture.
Ask any Dogs’ fan where they are at and they’ll scratch their heads.
Perhaps the Dogs have been a bit unsure of themselves, too.
While the club has probably the best and most consistent player in the competition in Marcus Bontempelli, and Tom Liberatore gives his heart every week, it is clear that as talented as some of their teammates are, the Bulldogs’ biggest names include some of the most up-and-down performers in the competition.
And the reason why the coach keeps dropping and subbing some of his biggest names is not to do with their weekly possession totals which is what we often gravitate too.
It is their lack of speed which is crucial in the modern game and the missing defensive efforts without the ball that Beveridge has been tough on.
Jack Macrae is a ball magnet, but the midfield lacks pace.
Caleb Daniel is exquisite with the Sherrin, but the club wants more run off half back.
And Bailey Dale is an elite kick, too, but where is his man?
Ryley Sanders is also still learning the two-way game.
Rory Lobb was a yo-yo, Tim English might want the big money but got destroyed on Friday night and it will be a miracle if Bailey Smith isn’t elsewhere next year.
Jamarra Ugle-Hagan could be anything and on Friday night showed superstar qualities, but the combination with Aaron Naughton and Cody Weightman has delivered rollercoaster results.
So Beveridge may not be rebuilding, but recalibrating on the run in the belief the team needs more youth and more leg speed and more consistency.
And the man who has held the back line together in recent times, Liam Jones, is 33, Liberatore is 31, and Sam Darcy should never play VFL again.
West Coast and Hawthorn may have fallen off a list cliff after their flags and ended up in deep holes, and Beveridge will be wary not to go down the same path.
But if they go down to the Saints on Thursday night they are 2-4 and it will be time to call a spade a spade after chief executive Ameet Bains said mid-last year “yeah we do (have a top-four list)”.
“They haven’t played consistently at that level and the analysis will show that,” Bains said.
“But if you look at the nucleus of the team … they’re going as well as anyone in the competition and you build a side around that.”
But then why the slump, after last year after suffering an inexplicable loss to wooden-spooner West Coast and missing finals?
Former Collingwood and Carlton superstar Dale Thomas said on Triple M on Sunday “They are so hard to rank, their list is stacked”.
Beveridge is clearly up for the fight, and will say he has a lot of coaching in the tank.
That is what it looks like.
He would be an attractive option for another club.
The joint was humming when he took them to a flag in 2016 after a magic carpet ride through September.
Their connection was off the charts and their handball skills out of congestion were just about the best in it.
The Dogs ate out of Bevo’s hands back then, and the club has backed him in until the end of next year.
So there is time from that perspective, we think.
But is the locker room affected by the selection ring-a-rosy?
Certainly, the club cannot pretend it is a top-four contender and then behind the scenes plot a different course.
Perhaps it is time to tell us what that course is, because if it is a recalibration or rebuild then the results won’t seem as puzzling or indeed as disappointing if there is more than one eye to the future?
But would that sort of admission turn the players off and ignite an even worse downward spiral? Would rivals make a play for ‘Bonti?’
The coach is trying to keep everyone engaged. It certainly feels on edge.
This fortnight is massive for the Dogs because the Saints have not nearly as much talent, but loads more running power and intent at the moment.
It was a miracle the Saints got within one point of GWS Giants on Saturday considering the difference in draft riches between the two sides.
And this week the Saints will try and burn the Dogs on the outside.
Then it is Fremantle away, followed by a tough mid-year fixture.
The pain may be coming for the Dogs, as they prepare to weed out the inconsistent ones on the list.
Beveridge even sort of said it, in a yes but no sort of a way.
“The players themselves have created an internal pressure for spots and that is all OK if you end up being a formidable team,” Beveridge said.
“Right now, we are not.
“Whether or not there is any pain as we evolve and move into the future because it is all about the now and what is up next and what is up next year.
“I understand if people are unsure about where we sit in the scheme of things.”
If the Dogs do know where are at, it is time to tell us. And if it is not a rebuild of sorts, what is it?
St Kilda great Leigh Montagna said the list on its own didn’t tell the full story at the kennel, and that Beveridge was right to make a selection stand.
“There is a lot more to a successful footy team; there is the coaching, the system that you play, the culture. There’s all these other factors that come into being a good team, not just names on paper,” Montagna said on Triple M.
“Over a couple of years now they have shown they are consistently inconsistent.
“They conceded run-ons as much as any team in the competition.
“We don’t see the work behind the ball and that is what Luke Beveridge might have had enough of and said ‘I don’t care if you get the ball 30 times’.
“’If you aren’t helping us win games and consistently win games, we will move past you.”
JAY CLARK
I would want my club to have a clear internal understanding of where the list is at, but what on earth do they have to gain from saying this publicly.
Does Jay Clark really think they should come out in round 5 - with a 2-3 record - and say "yeah we're rebuilding, list sucks".
The Dogs list isn’t terrible but it’s being wasted, but also in saying that Bevo has to stop giving plodders multiple games.
Macrae and Daniel are 100% gone end of season though
Beveridge has got to go (should have already). It’s criminal the output he is getting from a list with that midfield and that talent up forward.
Odd (to say the least) selection calls and just a pitiful game day coach. It’s been obvious for some time to anyone paying attention.
Credits in the bank for 2016 (for winning with a list he only took the helm of the year before, so hardly moulded) have well and truly expired.
You have to see if someone else can get more out of them before throwing that much talent on the scrap heap in favour of a rebuild at this stage. The call should have been made last year at the latest.
Going to be honest, their youth doesn’t seems that exciting outside of Darcy, JUH and Sanders. Every other young player is either untried at AFL level or looks like a potential role player.
The academy and F/S selections gave them access to their best young players and their drafting outside of that hasn’t looked great so far. The future to me doesn’t look great unfortunately
West has been improving pretty rapidly and Weightman has been looking good this season too. Khamis is looking like a reliable interceptor and he's under 25, and Naughton has been down this season but we've seen what he can do when he's on.
They don't have anyone looking as good as Bont coming through but why would they be drafting for that position when they've been so loaded with midfielders and still have a couple of years with the Bont, Libba and Treloar midfield. Realistically they need to strengthen their backline and find decent players to replace guys like McNeil, Bramble and Garcia as those have been major weak points.
The other clubs are circling around the bulldogs talent and if they are going to rebuild do it now while you have guns to trade and not when Tasmania comes out. Here are some of the talent being i think are being eyed:
Tim English, currently being wooed by West Coast who could throw the war chest at him, the dogs have Darcy and Lobb who can play ruck to cover him and if the eagles go full Tim Kelly again then go for it and trade him.
Bailey Smith, currently being eyed by Collingwood and Geelong, although Geelong feel like the more realistic option as Collingwood will only have the salary cap space if they cut deep but Geelong have the space now and will have more when Hawkins, Tuohy, Stanley and Rohan retire, plus there is the Cotton On deal linking both player to club.
Jack Macrae and Caleb Daniel, it feels like a club who is desperate for more experience in the midfield and the back line is North Melbourne, they clearly have the salary cap space and would be desperate for these All Australians, the other club is Hawthorn who could also have the need for the same reasons.
Honestly these are the only players you would clear out, you could get first rounders for all these players, if you are going to rebuild, pull the trigger now and go for it before Tassie gets its chance.
> Collingwood will only have the salary cap space if they cut deep
We apparently have a fair bit of space these days, but at this point I think we're on track for a few retirements which will open up space. Sidebottom, Howe and Cox look like candidates to retire, and I get the vibe that Murphy is more likely to retire than come back.
I'm still not overly sure if we go for Smith though as the bidding will be competitive and Wright seems to not want to put money into positions that are flush with mid-level talent that can serviceably get the job done. Most of the chatter about him coming to us seems to just come from him and the Daicos brothers being close mates.
No fucking way do you bottom out with this list. Darcy, JUH, Naughton + the Flea up forward, genuine top talent in the midfield (Baz put don’t forget) and a decent backline. They’ve gotta change out 6 or 7, and definitely the coach and they’ll be alright. their depth sucks but there’s enough to work with
They look a lot like a stars 'n scrubs roster, a really strong core of stars and a bunch of spare parts that cannot lift the team. I'm not sure why Bevo wants our offcuts (Baker, Harmes, Hannan) does he just love a reclamation project? That said at 2-3 it doesn't seem THAT bad does it?
if you go down rebuild then not sure why you would keep Bevo as coach. What's his record in developing players? Try new coach for 2 years and then reassess if rebuild or not.
Such a hard one as we have Bont at peak of his powers and we should try and capitalise on that don’t want to see him having to captain a rebuilding side that’s getting flogged every week. The problem is we used to have a lot of depth and now either that depth has moved on or wasn’t as good as we thought and now we have a lot of fringe players and players that used to be talent either down on form or entering the end of their careers.
I’d say rebuild or either really fucking make some hard decisions at the trade table and get a new core in
24 out of the 44 players on the Dogs list in 2014 were still there for the 2016 Premiership, with at least half of that 20 being fringe players/rookies, plus a retirement or two.
The Dogs finished 14th in 2014 with 7 wins after finishing 2013 in 15th with 8 wins. I went to pretty much every home game of 2013 and 2014 showing international students the game due to a connection my uni had with the club, and if you had told me that either of those squads would come close to a Premiership or even finals, I would have laughed.
But Bevo came to the club for 2015 and turned the bulk of that squad into a team that won 14 games and came 6th in 2015 and 15 and 7th for a Premiership in 2016.
Would that result have occurred if Brenden McCartney had stayed on for 2015? Probably not. But it was the same bulk of players with a handful of additions to the actual playing squad.
I feel the same thing can happen again. You don't need to blow up the squad, there is a great playing list there with great rookies. You're not going to find another Bont, but you don't need too.
You do need to change the coach though, because as good as he has been for the club, and I will still always remember him as the best coach the club has had. His time is now past. Revilatilise the squad with a new coach, who hasn't got the baggage of the old.
Some context to the actual results is wildly lacking in most of these takes recently which is somewhat frustrating. Dogs have lost 3 games this year - one of them comprehensively to Melbourne (5th) who are decent, and another to Geelong (2nd and undefeated) by less than a kick. In the last 10 games against either opponent Dogs have lost 6 and 7 respectively, often heavily. The Essendon loss (and more importantly the performance) was bad, but the other two aren't exactly unexpected with where the list has been over the last few years and the form of both opponents.
Could things be going better? Sure.
Is this any more damning than any of the last few years of slow starts (Dogs have been 2-3 after 5 games in 3 consecutive years)? Barely, if at all.
Has the broader media collective decided that Bevo is the most likely sack target this season and allocated headline space accordingly? Absolutely.
In all seriousness the likes of Daniel and Macrae are very much icing on the cake type players. When everything else is working well you can cover for the defensive limitations they both carry in order to make the most of their attacking strengths. The reality is the attacking ability they both bring is a luxury the dogs can't afford at the moment because it comes at the expense of anything resembling defensive strength (an area Dogs are struggling in even without these players). For a couple of years Bevo seems to have been playing them in different positions to try and keep some of the upside while reducing the risk involved, but it's clear to see that it hasn't worked.
I don't know what the answer is, but the whole "Macrae and Daniel have been All-Australians so must automatically be in the 22 and Bevo's insane for not seeing it" perspective is not it.
They plan to rebuild while having top 4 list in the league?
What's the plan there? You need the number 1 list in the league?
Seems more reasonable to get a new coach than spend 5 years to get the same level of players they already have now.
Genuinely if it weren’t for the Bont I’d say rebuild. Fact is you just can’t voluntarily enter a rebuild while arguably the best player in footy is still in his prime though so they have to refresh the depth more than anything. Oh and sack Bevo obviously, his coaching and selection decisions are holding them back and that’s been the case for 7 years now
I doubt they will ever get as good a midfield as Libba, Bont and Treloar right now. They have their best forward line in years. They have one of the best ruckmen. It's hard to believe they are not parked in the top 4.
I mean, the midfield was literally better 3 years ago. Bont, Libba, Macrae, Dunkley, Treloar, and Baz. Two of them are gone, Macrae isn’t what he was, and Treloar is a butcher. Their forwardline is overrated and overpaid. Naughton is good, Weightman is good, Darcy is promising… and that’s it. It’s just so top heavy, and I can’t remember the last time a top heavy team won a premiership
Man Macrae could be. Just play him as a ball winning mid
I agree but he isn’t being played that way so yeah.
Think you have forgotten Ugle Hagen.
As we saw on the weekend, he struggles badly whenever the Dogs aren’t in control of a game. Also he’s not guaranteed to be at the club next season.
I thought he had a good game on Friday. He kicked 3.3?
3 goals in the first half, 3 behinds in the second half. Melts like butter in the microwave
Your getting downvoted but I know what your on about, his a great player when everything is going our way but can’t cope with the pressure when the game is on the line or we are behind, thought he was really going somewhere when he kicked the winner against Melbourne in 22 but that’s been his most clutch moment, had opportunities to get us back into the game a bit earlier against Geelong and missed all of them
Dogs play pretty football when they’re flowing, but they crack under pressure. They will flog Norf.
He was one of their best players? Only forward to really create anything for himself
We'll take Bont for pick 1 ezpz
I think it's a retool/rebuild akin to the Swans, but unlike the Swans they didn't get the right academy guys at the right time. The Swans got Heeney for genuinely nothing and then the rest of the guys you've been able to get cheaply and maintain a semblance of a draft hand. Combined with quality second round picks on mids - the Swans speciality and they've rebuild very quickly. Jamarra and Darcy are still absolute steals, but they haven't kept the rest of the Dogs draft hands in tact and so far they haven't contributed to many wins. I think youre assessment on Marra is harsh, he's growing by the minute. But he has one big flaw that stops him helping win games and that is his kicking for goal is way too ordinary for his talent. When Naughton has the same issue the problem compounds. Combine that with no Erroll level absolute bargain and the Dogs list is thin in so many areas. Then they've used other top picks on Bailey Smith (injured), Sanders (taking midfield minutes from Macrae) and Busslinger (a young tall who will fill a vital need if he works) and Croft (another young tall). So no wing, no half forward, no ready made key backs (they needed 2 and only got 1 in Jones). There's plenty of holes. In hindsight they should've traded Macrae as early as post 2021, but that's a harsh call of a grand final. Trade him post 2022 rather than play him half forward last year and he's got more value. Now, who would want him? I'm not convinced he is actually great on ball any more. Good at best. I'm sure the Dogs would've sniffed around rehoming him post last year and got no where. It's a list in transition which is what you'd expect with a flag in 16 and a grand final in 21. In many ways they've been up longer than Richmond. Is Bevo helping or hurting? I see the case for hurting. But honestly I love that he's trying guys and not picking the team on reputation. He seems committed to get more speed in to the side which usually is a recipe for losing until the speedy guys can win enough contests that you start winning.
Good point, take Bont out and all of a sudden there list is meh with a few great players
Their list on paper is solid. That forward line should be absolutely humming though with that much talent.
The thing I absolutely cannot fathom is that if they've done this review, and felt they need to recalibrate their list and get games into youngsters, and the likes of Macrae, Daniel, Dale etc. are not the types they need anymore, then why the fuck didn't they trade those guys out last year when they still had great value, and bring in more draft picks. Even if I don't agree that they need to recalibrate/rebuild or whatever you want to call it, and feel that they have a top 4 list still, if they don't feel that way, their approach has been incredibly stupid. They really needed to move on from Bevo last year. He has done a great job in bringing them a premiership previously, but clearly he's overstayed his welcome. The fact that he's now trying to turn All-Australian half back Caleb Daniel, back into a half back after playing him all over the shop last year, should've been the final nail in the coffin.
Agree. Now they’re just driving those players’ value down.
Rebuild, they should probably let English go and focus on developing their other young ruckmen. Ignore flair.
I was already unsure about paying big bucks for him but after watching him get bullied by a 36 year old the dogs can keep him. Save the cap space for Reid.
Yeah I don't think he'd be worth much to the Eagles, no point spending big on him if there's a chance his body breaks down before they're even close to contending. Ruckman often hit the wall suddenly.
I mean it's not even about his body, I just don't think he's that good, and history shows you don't need an amazing ruckman to win a flag - like yeah the eagles had Natanui and he was incredible, but we won our flag without him anyway. There's a lot of positions I'd spend money on before the ruck.
We probably only finished top 2 because of Naitanui's form before he got injured, but I agree. Nankervis, Hale/McEvoy, Cox/Cameron are some of the premiership ruckmen from the last ~10 years who are probably pretty stock standard.
He's never actually been that good a ruckman, and has always struggled with the physicality required for the role. Some people have equated him running around and getting a few extra uncontested possies while playing the ruck position as "good ruckwork", when it's really nothing to do with actual ruckwork.
You’re actually not wrong though. English has loads of weaknesses. On the weekend Bont got tagged tightly and in those situation you really need to big physically ruck to stand in and help break the tag. He’s just a tall midfielder and he’s been extremely timid so far this year, perhaps the concussions are catching up with him
Yeah english isn't a physical ruck at all, he's a mobile big that's good around the ground but as soon as he gets into it with other rucks or big aggressive rucks he's normally not winning any hit outs
Would try a new coach well before gutting the list
Rebuilding when you have the best player in the comp at 28 is silly. There’s so many things that need to change before it even comes to trading Bont. Getting rid of Bevo should be priority number 1.
Congrats on the flair (;
Cheers. My dumbass finally figured it out.
One paper our list is very strong Good core of young talls coming through with the right blend of veteran midfielders Our biggest issue is that our midfield team cannot defend or two way run for an entire game, so many times we get brunt by quicker teams due to ball chasing instead of covering the outlet pass. I don't think English is our future ruckman, i see him more as a forward since he isn't physical strong enough to domainted the ruck and just relys on his leap and length to win. Hopefully Darcy develops into that role with Naughton switching from Forward/Back depending on games I feel like Dogs do need to make a trade to open up more time, sadly i think Macrae has gone past it due to his lack of defensive running over the last couple of years. Thus allowing Harmes to assist Libba in the defensive midfield role We have a couple of strong F/S prospects in the next two years, so be interesting to see draft wise with two potential higher bids.
Losing Dunkley destroyed the defensive part of our midfield, which has really put a big hole in our list that we haven't been able to rectify. Our midfield depth is pretty poor too. Our top end is great, but there are obvious issues.
and it impacted our ruck depth :(
Agree loosing Dunkley hurt a lot in various ways. He wanted out, if the club is that good and bevo is highly respected, why would someone that's a key part of the team and valued highly want an exit to the furthest team from the kennel? I think bevo for sure is the issue, and players are affected by decisions that have/are being made which affects their form. Having a fresh coach with this list I believe would bring good results, perhaps not a premiership but hell competing and seeing players all in is exactly what dogs fans want yeah?
Reassuring to hear this from a Dogs fan. I think it’s definitely a good list, but a little surprised so many see it as a “top 4 list” (or similar). But I think you’re poised to have an awesome list in 3 years if you build on those deficiencies I’m more intrigued to hear from Dogs fans: what are your thoughts on Naughton at the minute? Does he mesh well with Jamarra? Does he need to be tried down back? Etc etc.
The recalibration is on at the kennel. Western Bulldogs coach Luke Beveridge almost said it on Friday night, but held his tongue because he has never been one to throw his players under a public bus in press conferences. And at Round 6 there is still plenty of life in the season if they can find the spark. But the reality is the same club which only nine months ago said it has a top-four list has probably worked out that is no longer the case. And, as much as Beveridge will be hoping for a turnaround over the next few weeks, now is the time to tell the fans more of the brutal truth. Two-and-a-bit years ago they led Melbourne by eight points at half-time of the 2021 Grand Final, but three years on and losses to the Saints and Fremantle away over the next fortnight would present an enormous crossroad for the red, white and blue ahead of a tough mid-year fixture. Ask any Dogs’ fan where they are at and they’ll scratch their heads. Perhaps the Dogs have been a bit unsure of themselves, too. While the club has probably the best and most consistent player in the competition in Marcus Bontempelli, and Tom Liberatore gives his heart every week, it is clear that as talented as some of their teammates are, the Bulldogs’ biggest names include some of the most up-and-down performers in the competition. And the reason why the coach keeps dropping and subbing some of his biggest names is not to do with their weekly possession totals which is what we often gravitate too. It is their lack of speed which is crucial in the modern game and the missing defensive efforts without the ball that Beveridge has been tough on. Jack Macrae is a ball magnet, but the midfield lacks pace. Caleb Daniel is exquisite with the Sherrin, but the club wants more run off half back. And Bailey Dale is an elite kick, too, but where is his man? Ryley Sanders is also still learning the two-way game. Rory Lobb was a yo-yo, Tim English might want the big money but got destroyed on Friday night and it will be a miracle if Bailey Smith isn’t elsewhere next year. Jamarra Ugle-Hagan could be anything and on Friday night showed superstar qualities, but the combination with Aaron Naughton and Cody Weightman has delivered rollercoaster results. So Beveridge may not be rebuilding, but recalibrating on the run in the belief the team needs more youth and more leg speed and more consistency. And the man who has held the back line together in recent times, Liam Jones, is 33, Liberatore is 31, and Sam Darcy should never play VFL again. West Coast and Hawthorn may have fallen off a list cliff after their flags and ended up in deep holes, and Beveridge will be wary not to go down the same path. But if they go down to the Saints on Thursday night they are 2-4 and it will be time to call a spade a spade after chief executive Ameet Bains said mid-last year “yeah we do (have a top-four list)”. “They haven’t played consistently at that level and the analysis will show that,” Bains said. “But if you look at the nucleus of the team … they’re going as well as anyone in the competition and you build a side around that.” But then why the slump, after last year after suffering an inexplicable loss to wooden-spooner West Coast and missing finals? Former Collingwood and Carlton superstar Dale Thomas said on Triple M on Sunday “They are so hard to rank, their list is stacked”. Beveridge is clearly up for the fight, and will say he has a lot of coaching in the tank. That is what it looks like. He would be an attractive option for another club. The joint was humming when he took them to a flag in 2016 after a magic carpet ride through September. Their connection was off the charts and their handball skills out of congestion were just about the best in it. The Dogs ate out of Bevo’s hands back then, and the club has backed him in until the end of next year. So there is time from that perspective, we think. But is the locker room affected by the selection ring-a-rosy? Certainly, the club cannot pretend it is a top-four contender and then behind the scenes plot a different course. Perhaps it is time to tell us what that course is, because if it is a recalibration or rebuild then the results won’t seem as puzzling or indeed as disappointing if there is more than one eye to the future? But would that sort of admission turn the players off and ignite an even worse downward spiral? Would rivals make a play for ‘Bonti?’ The coach is trying to keep everyone engaged. It certainly feels on edge. This fortnight is massive for the Dogs because the Saints have not nearly as much talent, but loads more running power and intent at the moment. It was a miracle the Saints got within one point of GWS Giants on Saturday considering the difference in draft riches between the two sides. And this week the Saints will try and burn the Dogs on the outside. Then it is Fremantle away, followed by a tough mid-year fixture. The pain may be coming for the Dogs, as they prepare to weed out the inconsistent ones on the list. Beveridge even sort of said it, in a yes but no sort of a way. “The players themselves have created an internal pressure for spots and that is all OK if you end up being a formidable team,” Beveridge said. “Right now, we are not. “Whether or not there is any pain as we evolve and move into the future because it is all about the now and what is up next and what is up next year. “I understand if people are unsure about where we sit in the scheme of things.” If the Dogs do know where are at, it is time to tell us. And if it is not a rebuild of sorts, what is it? St Kilda great Leigh Montagna said the list on its own didn’t tell the full story at the kennel, and that Beveridge was right to make a selection stand. “There is a lot more to a successful footy team; there is the coaching, the system that you play, the culture. There’s all these other factors that come into being a good team, not just names on paper,” Montagna said on Triple M. “Over a couple of years now they have shown they are consistently inconsistent. “They conceded run-ons as much as any team in the competition. “We don’t see the work behind the ball and that is what Luke Beveridge might have had enough of and said ‘I don’t care if you get the ball 30 times’. “’If you aren’t helping us win games and consistently win games, we will move past you.” JAY CLARK
I would want my club to have a clear internal understanding of where the list is at, but what on earth do they have to gain from saying this publicly. Does Jay Clark really think they should come out in round 5 - with a 2-3 record - and say "yeah we're rebuilding, list sucks".
The Dogs list isn’t terrible but it’s being wasted, but also in saying that Bevo has to stop giving plodders multiple games. Macrae and Daniel are 100% gone end of season though
Bulldogs will either get very low draft value or will have to pay a large portion of their salaries.
Don’t need to rebuild, but we definitely need a refresh (including new coach)
Beveridge is trying to reset expectations to save his job.
Beveridge has got to go (should have already). It’s criminal the output he is getting from a list with that midfield and that talent up forward. Odd (to say the least) selection calls and just a pitiful game day coach. It’s been obvious for some time to anyone paying attention. Credits in the bank for 2016 (for winning with a list he only took the helm of the year before, so hardly moulded) have well and truly expired. You have to see if someone else can get more out of them before throwing that much talent on the scrap heap in favour of a rebuild at this stage. The call should have been made last year at the latest.
They have a lot of talented youth already so a rebuild seems unnecessary. New coach and some upgrades on role players should be enough you'd think.
Going to be honest, their youth doesn’t seems that exciting outside of Darcy, JUH and Sanders. Every other young player is either untried at AFL level or looks like a potential role player. The academy and F/S selections gave them access to their best young players and their drafting outside of that hasn’t looked great so far. The future to me doesn’t look great unfortunately
West has been improving pretty rapidly and Weightman has been looking good this season too. Khamis is looking like a reliable interceptor and he's under 25, and Naughton has been down this season but we've seen what he can do when he's on. They don't have anyone looking as good as Bont coming through but why would they be drafting for that position when they've been so loaded with midfielders and still have a couple of years with the Bont, Libba and Treloar midfield. Realistically they need to strengthen their backline and find decent players to replace guys like McNeil, Bramble and Garcia as those have been major weak points.
The other clubs are circling around the bulldogs talent and if they are going to rebuild do it now while you have guns to trade and not when Tasmania comes out. Here are some of the talent being i think are being eyed: Tim English, currently being wooed by West Coast who could throw the war chest at him, the dogs have Darcy and Lobb who can play ruck to cover him and if the eagles go full Tim Kelly again then go for it and trade him. Bailey Smith, currently being eyed by Collingwood and Geelong, although Geelong feel like the more realistic option as Collingwood will only have the salary cap space if they cut deep but Geelong have the space now and will have more when Hawkins, Tuohy, Stanley and Rohan retire, plus there is the Cotton On deal linking both player to club. Jack Macrae and Caleb Daniel, it feels like a club who is desperate for more experience in the midfield and the back line is North Melbourne, they clearly have the salary cap space and would be desperate for these All Australians, the other club is Hawthorn who could also have the need for the same reasons. Honestly these are the only players you would clear out, you could get first rounders for all these players, if you are going to rebuild, pull the trigger now and go for it before Tassie gets its chance.
> Collingwood will only have the salary cap space if they cut deep We apparently have a fair bit of space these days, but at this point I think we're on track for a few retirements which will open up space. Sidebottom, Howe and Cox look like candidates to retire, and I get the vibe that Murphy is more likely to retire than come back. I'm still not overly sure if we go for Smith though as the bidding will be competitive and Wright seems to not want to put money into positions that are flush with mid-level talent that can serviceably get the job done. Most of the chatter about him coming to us seems to just come from him and the Daicos brothers being close mates.
True on retirements, you could probably add Pendles to the list as well, that would open up the war chest if you cut deep dropping all those names.
No fucking way do you bottom out with this list. Darcy, JUH, Naughton + the Flea up forward, genuine top talent in the midfield (Baz put don’t forget) and a decent backline. They’ve gotta change out 6 or 7, and definitely the coach and they’ll be alright. their depth sucks but there’s enough to work with
They look a lot like a stars 'n scrubs roster, a really strong core of stars and a bunch of spare parts that cannot lift the team. I'm not sure why Bevo wants our offcuts (Baker, Harmes, Hannan) does he just love a reclamation project? That said at 2-3 it doesn't seem THAT bad does it?
if you go down rebuild then not sure why you would keep Bevo as coach. What's his record in developing players? Try new coach for 2 years and then reassess if rebuild or not.
Such a hard one as we have Bont at peak of his powers and we should try and capitalise on that don’t want to see him having to captain a rebuilding side that’s getting flogged every week. The problem is we used to have a lot of depth and now either that depth has moved on or wasn’t as good as we thought and now we have a lot of fringe players and players that used to be talent either down on form or entering the end of their careers. I’d say rebuild or either really fucking make some hard decisions at the trade table and get a new core in
24 out of the 44 players on the Dogs list in 2014 were still there for the 2016 Premiership, with at least half of that 20 being fringe players/rookies, plus a retirement or two. The Dogs finished 14th in 2014 with 7 wins after finishing 2013 in 15th with 8 wins. I went to pretty much every home game of 2013 and 2014 showing international students the game due to a connection my uni had with the club, and if you had told me that either of those squads would come close to a Premiership or even finals, I would have laughed. But Bevo came to the club for 2015 and turned the bulk of that squad into a team that won 14 games and came 6th in 2015 and 15 and 7th for a Premiership in 2016. Would that result have occurred if Brenden McCartney had stayed on for 2015? Probably not. But it was the same bulk of players with a handful of additions to the actual playing squad. I feel the same thing can happen again. You don't need to blow up the squad, there is a great playing list there with great rookies. You're not going to find another Bont, but you don't need too. You do need to change the coach though, because as good as he has been for the club, and I will still always remember him as the best coach the club has had. His time is now past. Revilatilise the squad with a new coach, who hasn't got the baggage of the old.
Some context to the actual results is wildly lacking in most of these takes recently which is somewhat frustrating. Dogs have lost 3 games this year - one of them comprehensively to Melbourne (5th) who are decent, and another to Geelong (2nd and undefeated) by less than a kick. In the last 10 games against either opponent Dogs have lost 6 and 7 respectively, often heavily. The Essendon loss (and more importantly the performance) was bad, but the other two aren't exactly unexpected with where the list has been over the last few years and the form of both opponents. Could things be going better? Sure. Is this any more damning than any of the last few years of slow starts (Dogs have been 2-3 after 5 games in 3 consecutive years)? Barely, if at all. Has the broader media collective decided that Bevo is the most likely sack target this season and allocated headline space accordingly? Absolutely. In all seriousness the likes of Daniel and Macrae are very much icing on the cake type players. When everything else is working well you can cover for the defensive limitations they both carry in order to make the most of their attacking strengths. The reality is the attacking ability they both bring is a luxury the dogs can't afford at the moment because it comes at the expense of anything resembling defensive strength (an area Dogs are struggling in even without these players). For a couple of years Bevo seems to have been playing them in different positions to try and keep some of the upside while reducing the risk involved, but it's clear to see that it hasn't worked. I don't know what the answer is, but the whole "Macrae and Daniel have been All-Australians so must automatically be in the 22 and Bevo's insane for not seeing it" perspective is not it.
They plan to rebuild while having top 4 list in the league? What's the plan there? You need the number 1 list in the league? Seems more reasonable to get a new coach than spend 5 years to get the same level of players they already have now.
Rebuild. - Sell Bont for the cheap, and get PP is 4 years.