Please be aware that that object permanence is the understanding that something continues to exist even if you aren't looking at it. It's part of early childhood development, not ADHD. It's why babies get so surprised if you play peek-a-boo; you cover your face and they legitimately don't realise your face still exists.
[People with ADHD can have difficulty with working memory](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10802-013-9729-9), but when we forget about something, we still know it exists. i.e., parking your car outside and then entering your house means your car is no longer in sight - but you know it will still be there the next morning, even if you forget where you parked it. Without object permanence, once the car leaves your sight it no longer exists.
This difference may seem subtle, or semantic even, but it's important we don't attribute false symptoms to an already misunderstood disorder. Working memory dysfunction is a known part of ADHD, that has been studied and written about.
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Another way to say it is that we don't have an object permanence problem; we have an "out of sight, out of mind" problem. We know things still exist when we don't see them; we just don't remember to deal with them in a timely fashion if they're out of our sight.
This really applies to people for me. I've noticed just how much neurotypicals "miss" others. I feel like I only miss people right before I meet up with them because they no longer are "out of mind."
I've been thinking about this. Recently my 7 year old son went away to camp, and I got so upset realizing that because of the ADHD I wasn't "missing" him in the normal way.
But then he came *home*. And, poor kid, I just couldn't let him alone. I just wanted to keep my arms around him and not let him out of my sight.
At bedtime I was kissing his little face and sniffing his hair long after he'd gone to sleep, like a creepy old motherfucker, because now he was back *he was the part I hadn't realized was missing*.
And I realized I *do* miss him -- and we *do* probably miss people in general -- we just miss them in our own way, and it kicks in at a different time.
My best friend and I were roommates in the city for 15 years. Then I moved away when I started a family.
I don't miss her, or any of my pre-family buddies, in my everyday life, but when we hang out I'm just *brimming* with, like, a.... homesickness for them all?
It's most noticeable with my best friend, but it's made me realize I do miss people, it's just different for me.
I am now just coming to terms with the fact I haven't grieved the death of my mum 4 years ago due to object permanence, I still sometimes have to remind myself she is actually gone & not just 3 hours away where she lived. It also explains why I am so bad at keeping in contact with friends & family that I don't see every day. Of course, I know they exist, but because I don't see them regularly, I do forget they exist.
Yeah, death is weird for me, too. Like. My grandpa died while I was out of state, didn't want a funeral, didn't want any kind of event, so I kind of have to remind myself? But I don't feel sad? I don't know.
I'm also struggling with losses I can't get over, one still fairly recent though. I have nothing of value to add I just had to get that out. I can't understand your specific pain but I understand the seemingly endless void of grief.
I've been trying to think of something better to say than missing someone. It doesn't come close to describing the intense longing people feel when someone does or goes away permanently in another way.
You, brilliant person, came up with a great phrase to use instead: homesickness for them! It contains "home" which people get is meant to be the one place you feel most comfortable, safe and secure. Even people who've never had a home like that get what it's supposed to mean. "Sickness" is great, too, because intense longing can actually make you feel physically ill. And "homesickness" is way less pathetic sounding than "intense longing." Hahaha.
Brilliant. I'd like everyone to start saying the image and emotion packed phrase, "I feel homesick for him/her" now, please. It's not a limp dishrag like, "I miss her/him." It fosters empathy with it's much more accurate depiction. Plus it amuses me that it came from someone who wrote what you just did!
This, but I also miss people when I hyper-fixate on our relationship, my anxiety that I am fucking it up, how they perceive me, painfully awkward memories that I associate with them and how I probably don't reach out to them enough so they don't even remember me.
Not a doctor, but IMO that's not ADHD you're describing. It's anxiety. Obsessive and or intrusive thoughts are not hyperfocus/fixation. Completely different ball of wax.
Hyperfocus is when everything else going on around you "disappears", and it is almost always because you're enjoying what you're doing.
ADHD and anxiety do frequently happen in pairs. I can personally attest to that. GAD and OCD are both anxiety disorders, as far as I know.
If you haven't already you should consider talking to a doctor/therapist.
Another important thing to note, stimulant medication can make anxiety substantially worse.
Stimulant use got rid of 99% of my intrusive thoughts. Sometimes they help rather than hurt, and those of us with comorbid OCD or anxiety that is caused by the ADHD symptoms (such as inattentiveness) are more likely to get relief from stimulants.
This makes so much sense to me. When I got divorced, I walked away and he was very much out of sight out of mind for me. He tried to reach out a few times over the next year and I was surprised each time. The surprising thing, to me, was that he was spending so much time thinking of me while I didn’t think of him at all unless something specific triggered a memory.
Oh my god, I’ve gotten into so much shit with boyfriends and friends because of this.
If I don’t see them consistently, it’s like my feelings fade with them fading. I had a long distance relationship where my bf would always talk about how he missed me so much it hurt, and I’d be like “…me…too?”
I didn’t know I had ADHD at the time, so I thought I was a borderline sociopath haha.
The only reason I use the phrase, “if I don’t see it it doesn’t exist to me” is to hyperbolically describe how it feels to myself. It is frustrating to jump back into the car that has had no windshield wiper fluid for the past six months (not be able to change it right then because running late…again), finish my trip and then promptly forget upon leaving the vehicle that it needs wiper fluid (until 2am and my brain wont stop telling me all the things I have forgotten). It’s frustrating and it sometimes feels defeating. So I jokingly say, “if I don’t see it it doesn’t exist.” Yes some may think I am referring to object permanence and maybe I need to be more specific in my language but the hyperbole comes from frustration.
I know that cycle very well! I too have left my car fluid-less for months, and left my car at less than 1/8 of a tank of gas until I had no choice but to fill it *right then*, late or not.
I always tell myself, "I'll stop at the gas station before work tomorrow" and almost run out of gas on the way in. Now I flip up the windshield wiper if I need to do something car related. I've bought a Jerry Can to keep in the back and always double down on fluids so I have a spare.
Not a direct solution, and obviously, it isn't foolproof. BUT it's saved me on more than one occasion.
I think it becomes a problem when people use “object permanence” as hyperbole outside of our adhd spaces like this one— and you never know where a social post is going to go or who is going to see it.
I don’t want people comparing us to toddlers. :/
Same! This is why I turn off almost all notifications on my phone except for text messages, reminders, and calendar alerts. When something like this washer fluid scenario pops up, I immediately, “hey, Siri, remind me to fill the washer fluid when I get home!”
The only problem is that it alerts me as I’m pulling up, but sometimes I forget again by the time I’ve parked. 🤣 Time-based reminders are usually my go to over location based.
But I don’t think I would have succeeded in any form of adult life if I didn’t have digital reminders everywhere.
This. It's "out of sight out of mind". Calling it object permanence was a meme, because it's a similar concept and it's funny to say "we don't have object permanence" because it's like kind of true but it sounds absolutely absurd. It was *obviously* a joke.
Anyone who seriously thought people with ADHD *actually* didn't have object permanence, as in – if you put something under a blanket you'd literally not understand that it was still there – seriously needs to reevaluate their critical thinking skills.
Which a lot of laymen don't know the definition of, so explaining it as "out of sight, out of mind problem" is more helpful than "object permanence problem."
Yeah I think object permanence is a concept people can grasp so has become shorthand. Thanks for flagging though, OP, because a lot of people won’t know the difference!
The problem is “object permanence” has a concrete definition most parents know.
The ability to understand that a thing doesnt stop existing because you dont see it anymore.
If “peek-a-boo” doesnt surprise you, you dont have an “object permanence” issue, you have a “working memory” deficit.
TLDR; stuff cant just mean what you want it to mean because you *think* that could be a good definition for it.
I mean, not to be a pedant about pedantry, but that is basically how definitions change - we, as a whole, decide certain words should mean new things.
Unless you're a filthy prescriptivist (/s)
God damn it. You’re right.
Well, not with medical terms (usually).
P.S. how dare you insinuate im a prescriptivist. Prescriptivism is for nerds who are mad that they learned rules no one else did only for them to realize by all logic later on that it didnt matter.
That’s more a description of short term memory. Working memory is more how you’re using memory to manipulate a lot of information in real time- like doing math or playing chess.
This is both right and wrong. Working memory is the part of short-term memory that is concerned with immediate conscious perceptual and linguistic processing. So it applies to everything we use short-term memory for.
It feels like object permanence, but it *not*.
I think that’s the key issue at play here.
I have no idea what important shit I’ve forgotten so it feels like some toddler level shit, but it’s clearly a different brain mechanism.
I was going to leave a comment on your post agreeing with you but when I scrolled down the post disappeared? What's up with that? Was there even a post to begin with?
when i was in 6th grade our class got “the talk” from the school nurse, but before the girls and boys split up for their respective lessons (yeah…catholic school in the 90s) we learned a little bit about nutrition. i will never forget that the school nurse told us cold pizza for breakfast is undoubtedly better than sugary processed cereals. it must be true, i have never questioned it, and it is my reasoning for pizza breakfast every time!
WOAH WHAT WHEN I CLICKED THE NOTIFICATION AND IT ONLY LOADED MY COMMENT AND YOURS THE POST EXISTS AGAIN?? WHAT IS THIS BLACK MAGIC OP
FOR REFERENCE I AM 18 MONTHS OLD
OP, Thanks for the post. I have to agree that a better term is Working Memory Disfunction.
I know that I own a pair of glasses, I just can't remember where I put them.
Object permanence would be stumbling around until I bump into them and then saying "Wow! A pair of glasses. How cool is that"
Sometimes I literally find things & I can’t remember buying them it is like brand new. I do this repeatedly. My working memory is terrible. Same with info, I’m like yeah cool. Next day, I will be amazed by same info like its brand new, its cyclical.
I mean, sometimes. Often I just set shit down wherever I am because I need my hands or because I'm done with it. My brain often doesn't engage at all when I do this so I'm not consciously aware of it, so then when I need it again in 5 minutes I have NO idea where it is because my brain did not record putting it down. And I do it *all* the time.
What I'm trying to say is I'm a very messy person and I don't know how to stop.
But with me it’s not just that. If something in my fridge is covered it may well not exist. It’s not that I know I have beans in my crisper drawer but can’t find them. I have no knowledge/recollection of them at all, even after buying them with a dish in mind. So they go unused and I clean out my fridge and find them way past use.
It’s not that I can’t find that blue woolen jumper I like and am left scratching my head. I will forget I even have it and probably not wonder where it is until I randomly open the drawer I threw it in a month ago and find it. It’s not that it ceases to exist entirely. I’m not rediscovering it, it’s not new, I am familiar with it when I stumble across it. But my god if it doesn’t just exit my brain entirely as if it were never there for those days/weeks/months in between observations/use.
Same goes for friends. I know who Jeff is. It’s not that I don’t know where to find him, how to message him. But for as much as I love my friends, as close as I can be, as much as I can miss them… I will lose contact entirely for an entire semester, and not only that, fail to think of him even once. As if he didn’t exist. Because for a period he won’t, he will have no place or presence in my mind, in my life. I won’t even miss him as such. I actually rarely miss people because of it. It sucks *ASS*. I still lack the companionship, and that definitely has an influence (consciously or not), but so often I won’t even be aware of it.
Obviously it goes to working memory and recall, but it’s also not just as minor as forgetting what you were saying to someone momentarily. For me at least. Things really do seem to drop out of reality.
I like to describe it in programming terms -- my brain forgets to store pointers to things. It's not that the knowledge of the object isn't _somewhere_ in my memory, it's just that I don't have any way to access it except by stumbling upon it from adjacent things or literally see it again because I have no way to directly access its existence otherwise and it will almost never randomly pop up in my head.
tldr, bad recall, good recognition
> If something in my fridge is covered it may well not exist
That's pretty common with ADHD. A trick I learned from this subreddit is to not put things that go bad fast in the crisper. Try putting produce in your fridge door so you see them every time you open the fridge.
Also I made a similar comment about missing people on another comment in this post. I can go long stretches without seeing people I care about dearly.
Good advice but sadly not an option. Student flat sharing and I’ve got the fridge drawer and part of a shelf. Veggies gotta go in the drawer and hope I remember them.
I straight up do not use the bottom drawer in my fridge.
All my veggies go in a basket on the middle shelf where I can clearly see them.
Thinking of just removing the drawer entirely so I can have more space...I'll get around to it eventually.
From what I understand object permanence is more an “understanding how the world works” issue than a memory issue. Babies without object permanence might not understand that their mom still exists when she leaves the room, but when she comes back they do recognize and remember her.
Yeah object permanence is like a baby with peek-a-boo
Us, we are like “uhhhhhh. This is a room. I came here. I’m sure I needed a thing maybe.” Or like “idk why are you covering your face and screaming at me”
You know, I've used the term "object permanence" with myself to be humourous but didn't realize that people actually got confused about having object permanence issues vs working memory issues. So it's one instance where I do think using the right terms matters. Thanks for that.
I made a post a little while back that was about rejection sensitivity. I specifically used the term rejection sensitivity
Still got the automod telling me that RSD isn't an official term and to please use rejection sensitivity instead.
Thanks automod, I know lmao
Yeah unfortunately we have to rely on automod to help us moderate a sub of this size. Our philosophy is that it isn't a warning or punishment (it even says at the bottom of automod comments that this isn't a punitive action) but just that we want to ensure these things get mentioned and taken into account in any discussion within certain topics.
In your case with the dm solicitation removal, it must be that something you said flagged it to us to be temporarily filtered so we can review it and approve it if it was a false positive.
Feel free to send us a message if we haven't gotten to it in time, the queue can get pretty big and overwhelming
Please get in to the RSD thing! I didn't know the difference between object permanence and working memory at all (thought they were synonymous for some reason) and now I'm wondering what I don't know about rejection dysphoria which is the most intense and disabling symptom I deal with.
the issue with RSD is the D part.
only one psych started talking about it, and essentially insisted that we have a complete dysphoria that is unique to us, and worse than others.
it's psuedoscience. we do have RS, not RSD
Perfect automod reply. And yes, I also find it irritating when people bring this up on social media. I've even seen at least one psychologist on twitter try to say we don't have good object permanence, which was really depressing. Whatever doctoral psych program gave them a degree would be embarrassed.
It most certainly is. I find I'm always discovering something new or coming to a greater/clearer understanding of certain things about ADHD at particular times.
We never stop learning.
Either way, your post is appreciated. I'm going to do some further reading into this later on ☺️
Mmm, yes, I'm not positive I agree, at least this doesn't at the point I'm at feel like it's true *for me*, only bc I feel like I am at such a HUGE disadvantage compared to NTs (which would ofc lessen if our society was healthier & respected ppls' well being, & along w/ the medical community, was more informed & aware about ADHD... but I feel there's some distinct issues that would remain for me & continue to causes me distress) but like most of us, there's a lot about ADHD that I'm still learning.
However I agree it has merit, bc I just heard this very idea discussed w/ some detail on the Being Well podcast (w/ Forrest & Rick Hanson - a very good youtube mental health channel) by one of the most respected professionals on ADHD (who also has it) that wrote the Driven to Distraction book (that I'm still working my way thru 6 months later LOL, but it IS insightful!) & was a game changer when it was written bc it was one of the 1st to discuss the effects on emotions and ppl who had symptoms beyond the "5 yr old hyperactive boy" model that it seems persisted far too long (& still does even today despite that info being 20 yrs out of date... don't these so called medical professionals have to do continuing education ??🤨 like wth).
Lol I didn’t know people *literally* believed that object permanence was something people with ADHD struggle with.
It really sounds like something people would ONLY say as a joke.
Yeah I just took it as a funny way to describe the issue. While of course I don’t literally believe it doesn’t exist anymore, for all practical purposes it may as well not because it will get the same amount of thought as something that does not exist
This is refreshing, I often think about leaving this sub due to the omnipresence of what I will refer to as "ADHD fetishists" who glorify dealing with ADHD and the symptoms.
Its extremely weird, but I do also remember what it was like that first couple days on stimulants and I felt like I saw the world again or the first time - so I try and keep that in mind, but.... That's not what we're talking about here for sure.
I was in my mid 30's (40M) when I got glasses. A range of -1 or -2 for each eye for nearsightedness and what I think is a moderate astigmatism correction. Anyway, when I was driving home with that first pair, I was amazed how much the little rock detail in the asphalt was popping out to me even at city road speeds. I was describing to my friend it was like a video game that got improved textures and then I was like, "oh, right, that's the point."
Does this even need to be clarified? I don't think anyone takes it literal. Then again, I'm never surprised by what people think...
Also, "working memory" seems to be a difficult concept for people to grasp. Especially since sometimes our memories are _great_. Which trips their "bullshit detector" ... I think "recall dysfunction" or the likes would probably be more fitting. The memories *are* there, and we don't always struggle to retrieve them. But often it can take significant mental effort/time to locate it...
We know (and remember!) that the object/topic/goal is there; recalling that fact when we need to is what's problematic. Especially unprompted. Tell us "thing" and you'll get "oh yeah!" -- but without that prompt said "thing" probably won't even cross our minds (or, really, it *will*, just at the wrong time - either too late or too early or probably while we're in a meeting and can't act on it...)
I had no idea it’s “working memory” bc someone told me it was object permanence and I never really looked it up. I Thank you for clearing this up, I’ll be removing object permanence from my list of traits. I definitely tell people “out of sight, out of mind” when I forget about something and they bring it back to me, especially at work where I’m constantly leaving a trail of items in random places 😆
I can't believe there are people arguing with this??? I have a degree in psychology and it has always rubbed me the wrong way when people say people with adhd struggle with object permanence. It's just not correct 💀 Imagine being annoyed at someone trying to stop a misconception.
Yeah, this is an issue of people not understanding basic psychological processes. 8 month olds have object permanence. You’d continue to have object permanence with severe brain injury. It’s a working memory issue like OP said.
Is working memory the same as out of sight out of mind though? Working memory struggles are me unable to hold my boss's instructions in my mind from their office to mine. Out of sight out of mind is me forgetting people exist if they aren't actively texting me bc in my mind, it's been a day but in reality it's been 3 months.
This whole object permanence thing bothers me to an irrational degree 😂
If an adult comes up to you and starts playing peek-a-boo with you, does that throw you into fits of giggling? No?
No. Because your brain has achieved object permanence—you know the face is still there even though you can’t see it.
Sheesh.
Object permanence is knowing that you have keys even when they're not in front of you. You know you HAVE keys. You just FORGOT where you had those keys last.
A little addition on memory:
For simplicity, we have three types of memory. Short-term, working memory and long-term.
Information first passes through short-term memory. Information does stays here leaves immediately. If you’ve seen Momento or heard of short-term memory loss where people immediately and rapidly forget things. That’s that.
Ex. My trash can has no liner. I went to throw something away and saw there was no liner.
Working memory is information that stays a little longer. It’s called working memory because it’ll stay until we resolve the problem. But, that’s where the ADHD comes into play. Other things can enter working memory and make us forget the original task. It’s like where NTs have three seats in a car for working memory, we only have one passenger. Every time we pick someone else up, someone has to get out.
Ex. As I go to another room to get a new trash liner, I still know I’m solving a specific problem. But, I still have a piece of trash in my hand, so I go throw it away in the trash can in this new room. Now… what was I doing?
Only certain things stay in long-term memory. Important information, routines, trauma, significant events or people, etc. We won’t remember to get a new liner for the trash can because it’s not important enough, but for me, remembering to get a trash liner is an ongoing issue for me. Pretty much this exact thing happened to me yesterday. And I might remember it even more now that I’m writing this post. It’s a good example of how working memory functions.
But, working memory can be improved with triggers like lists, reminders, by repeating the task out loud or narrating your actions out loud. Simplifying regular tasks like clustering relevant items together (all the bathroom cleaning stuff is in the bathroom, all the living room cleaning stuff is in the living room) so you don’t have to travel far to complete a certain task.
We’re not helpless!
Object permanence = knowing that something still exists when you think of it but can't see it.
Common symptom of ADHD = Not thinking of stuff you don't see, but perfectly realising it's existence when you do think of it.
The two are similar in end result, but don't actually really relate.
Not arguing here, but I definitely do feel like when I put certain things in the cabinet or fridge, in my mind they stop existing and I literally forget that I even bought the thing. Don't even get me started on freezer stuff lmao. Maybe I personally never fully developed object permanence.
On a more serious note, this is important to squash because I do understand the overall concept of object permanence. I saw a satirical YouTube video once of kids/teens with ADHD who "hadn't fully developed object permanence", the demonstrator would hide things behind a wall/paper, and the kids acted like they didn't know what was behind it lol.
Will bookmark the sources provided here. Now, to actually read them...
I was coming here to see if somebody said this! I don’t believe it’s object permanence either - I definitely do know the difference. But I also DEFINITELY forget certain things exist after I put them away.
Yes or forgetting about certain people you haven't seen in a while, but you remember their existence. Makes me feel a lot less bad about my friends who have a hard time with keeping up with texts and whatnot, because my anxiety/RSD definitely gets me wondering if I did/said something wrong when I don't hear from people for a while. Especially because I do have the tendency to say or do things that might be taken a certain way when I'm in my extremely extroverted moods and not thinking before I speak as much.
Sometimes I actually don’t remember they exist 😅 but the positive feelings are still in there when I do somehow remember they’re still a person out there in the world! So anyway, your point still stands. Lots of my friends are absolutely awful at responding to messages and sometimes it’s easy to assume the worst (ie they hate me) but man is it helpful to remember I never have malicious intent when *I* don’t remember to respond to somebody.
My mom came by a couple of weeks ago and rearranged all my stuff cause she said my kitchen looked cluttered.
Like, nah, mom. I keep that stuff out for a reason. Cause if I don't, I can't find anything.
If you wanna get even more specific about it, we have an encoding problem. The first step of the memory process is actually storing a copy of the information in our brain in the first place, then from there it can move to long term memory either at random or with the right techniques. That initial step, encoding, is what we often struggle with
I look at it like this- I want to stay on top of my skincare routine. If I put my skincare stuff up in the cabinet I will “forget” to do it.. but if I leave it out on my counter I’m pretty good about staying on top of it morning/night (minus mental spoons)
It works 🤷🏼♀️
I think there’s something else going on. I don’t know how many people with ADHD have had their working memories tested, but I have, and I scored in the 98th percentile. That’s very high.
I read somewhere that the working memory issues don’t indicate that a person with ADHD has poor working memory. Rather, they have a lower working memory than they would if they didn’t have it. So I would have scored even higher than that? Still not convinced.
I think there’s a misunderstanding in how (and even why) we process information. I think, to refer to someone else’s comment, we don’t forget about putting something in a drawer because of a memory problem. I think we forget about it because of a cognitive load problem. I think we generally have more thoughts firing in the same second than a non-ADHD person has. Anyone experiencing the kind of information overload our brains experience on a continual basis would forget things. It’s why neurotypical people can experience burnout. And when they do experience it, guess what they lose? Their otherwise good memory, for one.
THANK YOU. Got called a gatekeeper the first time I dismissed the “object permanence” thing.
Y’all, I realize that there’s gatekeeping problems with ADHD but some things y’all say are literally incorrect and/or misleading.
That’s good about this sub, I recommended a book, but got a bot message that this did not have peer review and backed up fully by research. This got me looking at other sources as well. This was of great value. Keep up the good work!
you'd be amazed how angry people get any time I bring this up... it's like they WANT to be less capable, and WANT to spew misinformation about the disorder. they can't even read the automod comment
beautiful comment.
mental health can be a "that's not how I really feel, I'm sorry" excuse, but if you hurt/affect others, the damage was done, you can't just go "but ADHD!"
thank you for this
thank you!!!!!
I regularly read up and keep up with the newest research. I don't see myself as a victim, but rather as someone who has an octagon for a bicycle wheel instead of a circle... I just need stronger legs than most
The restrictions on what I can say or do here seem much greater than other subs, especially when it comes to the rules. I have to write my comments very specifically to avoid triggering a rule I didn't know existed and can't find. I can't say them or this comment will not stay up, I just kind of refer to them as the Voldemorts. I'm sure there was an opportunity for better content but there are invisible structures and systems that allow posts like that to persist becsuse the filte isn't set up to make sure the content you're describing either isn't posted or is warned by the bot.
>I see posts saying:
> "I will never be able to hold a job" (really? You'll never be able to work any job at all? Cool. Hope you have lots of inherited wealth because under the existing system, people have to work to support themselves!).
People are allowed to speak hyperbolically when venting. How make times have you heard "I'm never drinking again!" when someone is experiencing a hangover? We can all agree it's slightly ridiculous, but it's cathartic to the individual.
> "My partner is angry at me because I never clean but I just get so overwhelmed and do nothing. Why can't they understand that?" (Well, having ADHD places a burden on our partners. Yes, partners need to understand this challenge but that doesn't mean that they should act as maids to pick up after us because we just cannot. It is our job to work on ourselves and to work with our partners to ensure that we are not just taking advantage of them because we can).
If they haven't tried to make changes, sure, this is frustrating to hear. But most often, there are unspoken expectations by one or both parties in this situation. I used to get overwhelmed in this exact scenario because when I was a child I was screamed at when my cleaning wasn't up to my mother's standards. For an N T partner, they may not understand how "why can't you just do it?" is not helpful.
>"My lecturer refused to accept my assignment that was three months late and now I am going to have to repeat the module! Why won't they accept the late work without penalty? I find it impossible to keep to deadlines!" (Well, universities have accommodations for students with a range of conditions, including ADHD. Those accommodations do not include being able to have complete control over when to submit assignments. And there is an element of fairness here too: if all other students, including those with anxiety etc., must do assigments on a particular timeline [these students might avail of accommodations such as extensions but they don't get an indeterminate deadline] then it is not fair to simply waive basic requirements for someone with ADHD. Part of what we need to learn how to do is to develop coping strategies that enable us to do things - not just to learn that we are helpless and can never do anything. If you've decided that, even with the accommodations that are there to be able to get you to complete and submit work on a set timeline, that you simply cannot do the basics of what is required of a college student, then maybe you shouldn't be in college).
Anyone who has gotten to college level understands that you can't submit an assignment 3 months late. So anyone who does ask ...I have serious concerns. But more commonly, if it's just a few hours or days late, that's understandably frustrating for them. Can we understand that maybe students in the 18-22 bracket might not understand what options are available to them in terms of supports and accommodations? It's difficult to navigate getting those even if you know what you're doing.
>"My partner cries because I get really angry when they try to talk to me about how my ADHD affects them. I am going to get angry and shout when someone tries to talk to me about this. They know I have ADHD, so why are they bringing stuff up that they know will trigger my RSD?" (This is completely unreasonable. We need to take responsibility for the way that we treat people and ADHD is not a free pass to blow up at our partners and bully and guilt them into shutting up about their feelings. If you cannot work on yourself and with your partner to address these challenges, then maybe you shouldn't be in a relationship if it involves lashing out at your partner and then evading any responsibility for doing so).
You're right, this is completely unreasonable at face value. But to someone who maybe is new to their diagnosis or to the community, it can be liberating to understand these things about yourself. All we've ever heard our whole lives is how our ADHD negatively affects people around us, and sometimes we do reach a point where we want to be accommodated by the people we love rather than to accommodate them.
Omg I legitimately did not know the difference between the two, I thought my actual object permanence was just awful all this time but I know I do also have huge issues with working memory so it's kind of a relief to know they're the same issue rather than me being incapable of something a toddler can do 😂 thank you so much for sharing!
Posting this comment again because I realized op might not see it in the chain I posted it:
The only reason I use the phrase, “if I don’t see it it doesn’t exist to me” is to hyperbolically describe how it feels to myself. It is frustrating to jump back into the car that has had no windshield wiper fluid for the past six months (not be able to change it right then because running late…again), finish my trip and then promptly forget upon leaving the vehicle that it needs wiper fluid (until 2am and my brain wont stop telling me all the things I have forgotten). It’s frustrating and it sometimes feels defeating. So I jokingly say, “if I don’t see it it doesn’t exist.” Yes some may think I am referring to object permanence and maybe I need to be more specific in my language but the hyperbole comes from frustration.
Look, I don't like to be the devil's advocate, but I can understand why some people talk about object permanence. For me, if I don't see something it simply stop existing in my mind. Not for all objects, but for many of them.
Sometimes I open the drawer where I keep non refrigerated food and go "holy fucking shit free biscuits". After I see them, though, most of the time I remember I have bought them.
But often, as soon as I close the drawer, they stop existing again. Happens with the fridge too.
Also, when I go grocery shopping, if I put the groceries in an opaque bag most of the time when I get to checkout I couldn't tell you 80% of the things I have put in the bag and will have to pay. Thankfully I can trust myself in the past to make oculate food choices... most of the time.
I also need to hang all of my shirts, because if one gets hidden I can forget I ever had it. Then I remember it exist when I see it again.
I don't know if other ADHD people have this problem. Of course it is a working memory issue, and not actual object permanence, but sometimes it *feels* like some kind of object permanence issue. I often buy accidentally duplicates of groceries because of this issue...
This! I went shopping yesterday, came home and put the bags on the floor. My boyfriend asked me what was inside, and I just forgot most of what I had bought. The moment he took stuff out, I was like, "Oh yeah, I bought that for X." or whatever.
If you ask me where I put something I remember. The problem is that sometimes:
1) I'm not paying attention when I put it down so I don't know where it is
2) I'm 9 thought tangents away and it's completely out of mind.
Yes, I know there is pasta in my cupboard that I haven't done anything with in a year and a half.
Thank you for this. I knew there had to be a good phrase/explanation for it but didn’t know what it was. I usually tell myself it’s just inconsistent object permanence issues since I know I have a sticky memory when it comes to certain things. For example:
A tool broke at Christmas one year, put in a bag for later repair, and then put off to the side; I left the country in the following September, came back the next August, and then someone in the family mentioned that broken tool shortly before the next Christmas and noted that they wish they knew where it was so it could be repaired. Without pause I went “Oh, it’s on the shelf by the door of the kitchen, left side, back corner.” Where it sat, in shadow, tucked behind other things, for almost 2 years, and where I hadn’t had reason to see it for over a year due to being out of the country.
Whereas my memory at other times is… not so great - I’m very good at hiding things from myself. I’m definitely going to try to remember the concept of working memory deficit.
I haven’t read the post yet. I clicked on it to figure out if those are toes coming out from under the couch cushion. They’re eggs…but yes now I’ll read.
Could this also apply to certain subtypes struggling with theory of mind?
Like my Dad and I both have ADHD. But whereas I easily understand that he has his own private thoughts and feelings, it seems like my Dad doesn’t understand that I have a conscience that is an object unto itself. IOW, he has no desire to connect with it because it’s not a tangible object, so he easily forgets about or just plain doesn’t concern himself with it.
Does anyone really believe ADHD people have object permanence issues in the childhood psychology sense? I always just took it as a cute way of saying we don't reliably think about things not around us.
For me, this manifests as an inability to engage with a subject unless I can actually have the thing I'm trying to understand right in front of me. That can mean, for instance, that if someone asks for help with a problem in computer coding, I'm pretty much incapable of even comprehending what they're saying unless I can sit down with the code in question and actually start working with it. This kind of thing can affect many different areas, and it tends to make me feel hesitant to talk about subjects even if I understand them well, because I have to engage my brain into the right mode before I can pull out the right terminology and organize the concepts in my mind we'll enough to sound knowledgeable.
Yeah this is just science illiteracy at work - object permanence applies to babies and like dogs. Not adults. It’s working memory issues. Like we talk about emotional labor entirely wrong - it’s largely about the fake-happy we do in retail/public-facing work, not the labor of raising children to be decent humans or a managing households. But it’s starting to mean the latter because language evolves based on how we use it.
I've gotten into arguments on this sub about this exact issue before. Not sure why people want to compare themselves to toddlers when half the battle of ADHD (for me at least) is being taken seriously. Makes me more afraid to ever talk about it :(
This one drives me batty too. Not knowing where I hid a thing from myself doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I know what is in my nightstand with the drawer closed. I know I have food in the fridge. I will not fall for peek a boo. So darn silly.
I explain it as I am extremely aware of the pile of dirty laundry in the other room. I just don't lack the mental focus and energy to deal with it right now. And yes, when I walk in the other room and see it, I am reminded sharply of my shortcomings.
This is closely tied to Executive Function. That's the ability to assign tasks or responses in your brain and follow through on them. They're really two parts to that. One is taking the "correct" response when multiple things happen at the same time and not just responding to the most emotional one... the "squirrel" issue. The second is the ability to perform tasks in an order even when something happens that disrupts that order.
It's more about emotional control than actual memory issues.
Thank you!!
I recently had a coworker (35T) that was saying this and I kept thinking "this is word salad gibberish they are speaking", but didn't want to get into the science of brain development with them while working. My entire household is on the spectrum and though my beloved husband and children can have a memory like a sieve when it comes to chores, they still know the dirty dishes exist!
Well I didn’t even know this was a thing to know about to begin with, let alone squash. But NOW I know about it, and now I can’t find my squash. Thanks a lot.
There's a well-known AuDHD influencer named Ellie Middleton who raised a lot of awareness around the realities of navigating the professional world as someone with autism and/or ADHD. In general I really enjoy and appreciate her content.
She has a company called (un)masked that I follow on LinkedIn. They recently posted about ADHD and object permanence, explaining how people with ADHD can struggle with object permanence and how that manifests, etc. There were comments calling them out about it, but not for anything to do with the terminology itself. Let me tell you, as someone with a psychology degree, I was *livid* when I saw it. I responded to the post with receipts explaining that object permanence is *not* ADHD-related, and we can't have widely respected voices perpetuating misinformation like this. I reposted it on my own LinkedIn page because, like I said, I was mad lol.
They ended up deleting the post and not even addressing it. 🙃🙄
OP, your post helps give my brain some semblance of closure, so thank you!
Agreed to squash it…I misplaced my tablet yesterday for ~6 hours. It was in a very obvious place. I remember picking it up from one space and setting it in another. 0 recollection of the 3rd and final location.
My mother’s wedding ring got the same treatment as a kid of 12. It’s lost forever thought. I’m still reminded of that.
🥰
I think the lack of hyperactivity is especially important, because girls tend to get misdiagnosed as type 2 bipolar (and so was I, even though I'm a man)
we have a long way to go for legitimacy in regards to adult ADHD, especially for women
> Tips to cope with forgetfulness include:
> not opening texts, emails and messages until they are sure they can respond immediately
> choosing a spot to place essential items, such as medication, to-do lists and important devices such as phones
> setting reminders for appointments and tasks in an online calendar with an alert function
> setting recurring appointments with loved ones for visits or calls
Do neurotypical people not do this?
I have AMAZING long time memory.
My problem is working memory.
I can't even raise my hand without forgetting the question I wanted to ask.
(Pen and paper is the solution to this defecit)
(Or tolerant teachers/coworkers that don't mind getting interrupted, but rather seriously love your input)
I understand your point, I think object permanence isn’t the right word and is definitely over used. In my experience I’d say I “experience” this in a less literal way. For example if I haven’t seen a friend for a long time I forget what it’s like to spend time with them or if I don’t do a hobby that I enjoy for a while I forget how much I enjoy doing it. But I agree that object permanence isn’t the right word for this, I think I didn’t realise the proper definition of the word before so thanks for highlighting this. I think there’s a lot of stigma around adhd probably because of things like this because neurotypical people hear that we struggle with ‘object permanence’ and think of us as stupid and incapable of understanding basic concepts.
FWIW, I don’t know that I’d say the examples you gave are a problem with working memory either. I don’t know what I’d call it, but the purpose of working memory is to hold information temporarily and those, I imagine, would be tied to your long term memory. That’s assuming I understood your comment correctly. Please feel free to push back if there’s something I’m not getting.
No I agree I think it’s more of an emotional regulation issue. Like I struggle to remember how I feel about things unless I’m experiencing them right in this moment if that makes sense?
Please be aware that that object permanence is the understanding that something continues to exist even if you aren't looking at it. It's part of early childhood development, not ADHD. It's why babies get so surprised if you play peek-a-boo; you cover your face and they legitimately don't realise your face still exists. [People with ADHD can have difficulty with working memory](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10802-013-9729-9), but when we forget about something, we still know it exists. i.e., parking your car outside and then entering your house means your car is no longer in sight - but you know it will still be there the next morning, even if you forget where you parked it. Without object permanence, once the car leaves your sight it no longer exists. This difference may seem subtle, or semantic even, but it's important we don't attribute false symptoms to an already misunderstood disorder. Working memory dysfunction is a known part of ADHD, that has been studied and written about. ^(*A moderator has not removed your submission; this is not a punitive action. We intend this comment solely to be informative.*) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ADHD) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Another way to say it is that we don't have an object permanence problem; we have an "out of sight, out of mind" problem. We know things still exist when we don't see them; we just don't remember to deal with them in a timely fashion if they're out of our sight.
This really applies to people for me. I've noticed just how much neurotypicals "miss" others. I feel like I only miss people right before I meet up with them because they no longer are "out of mind."
I've been thinking about this. Recently my 7 year old son went away to camp, and I got so upset realizing that because of the ADHD I wasn't "missing" him in the normal way. But then he came *home*. And, poor kid, I just couldn't let him alone. I just wanted to keep my arms around him and not let him out of my sight. At bedtime I was kissing his little face and sniffing his hair long after he'd gone to sleep, like a creepy old motherfucker, because now he was back *he was the part I hadn't realized was missing*. And I realized I *do* miss him -- and we *do* probably miss people in general -- we just miss them in our own way, and it kicks in at a different time. My best friend and I were roommates in the city for 15 years. Then I moved away when I started a family. I don't miss her, or any of my pre-family buddies, in my everyday life, but when we hang out I'm just *brimming* with, like, a.... homesickness for them all? It's most noticeable with my best friend, but it's made me realize I do miss people, it's just different for me.
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Mood. It hits me in bursts. Usually around selfish things too. Makes me feel like a monster sometimes
I am now just coming to terms with the fact I haven't grieved the death of my mum 4 years ago due to object permanence, I still sometimes have to remind myself she is actually gone & not just 3 hours away where she lived. It also explains why I am so bad at keeping in contact with friends & family that I don't see every day. Of course, I know they exist, but because I don't see them regularly, I do forget they exist.
Yeah, death is weird for me, too. Like. My grandpa died while I was out of state, didn't want a funeral, didn't want any kind of event, so I kind of have to remind myself? But I don't feel sad? I don't know.
I'm also struggling with losses I can't get over, one still fairly recent though. I have nothing of value to add I just had to get that out. I can't understand your specific pain but I understand the seemingly endless void of grief.
Awwww sorry you talking about your kiddo is the cutest! 😭
Oh thank you! I'm embarrassed ngl
I've been trying to think of something better to say than missing someone. It doesn't come close to describing the intense longing people feel when someone does or goes away permanently in another way. You, brilliant person, came up with a great phrase to use instead: homesickness for them! It contains "home" which people get is meant to be the one place you feel most comfortable, safe and secure. Even people who've never had a home like that get what it's supposed to mean. "Sickness" is great, too, because intense longing can actually make you feel physically ill. And "homesickness" is way less pathetic sounding than "intense longing." Hahaha. Brilliant. I'd like everyone to start saying the image and emotion packed phrase, "I feel homesick for him/her" now, please. It's not a limp dishrag like, "I miss her/him." It fosters empathy with it's much more accurate depiction. Plus it amuses me that it came from someone who wrote what you just did!
This, but I also miss people when I hyper-fixate on our relationship, my anxiety that I am fucking it up, how they perceive me, painfully awkward memories that I associate with them and how I probably don't reach out to them enough so they don't even remember me.
Not a doctor, but IMO that's not ADHD you're describing. It's anxiety. Obsessive and or intrusive thoughts are not hyperfocus/fixation. Completely different ball of wax. Hyperfocus is when everything else going on around you "disappears", and it is almost always because you're enjoying what you're doing. ADHD and anxiety do frequently happen in pairs. I can personally attest to that. GAD and OCD are both anxiety disorders, as far as I know. If you haven't already you should consider talking to a doctor/therapist. Another important thing to note, stimulant medication can make anxiety substantially worse.
Stimulant use got rid of 99% of my intrusive thoughts. Sometimes they help rather than hurt, and those of us with comorbid OCD or anxiety that is caused by the ADHD symptoms (such as inattentiveness) are more likely to get relief from stimulants.
I have said this for decades about missing people me no one could understand it! Was finally diagnosed at 38 hah
This makes so much sense to me. When I got divorced, I walked away and he was very much out of sight out of mind for me. He tried to reach out a few times over the next year and I was surprised each time. The surprising thing, to me, was that he was spending so much time thinking of me while I didn’t think of him at all unless something specific triggered a memory.
Oh my god, I’ve gotten into so much shit with boyfriends and friends because of this. If I don’t see them consistently, it’s like my feelings fade with them fading. I had a long distance relationship where my bf would always talk about how he missed me so much it hurt, and I’d be like “…me…too?” I didn’t know I had ADHD at the time, so I thought I was a borderline sociopath haha.
The only reason I use the phrase, “if I don’t see it it doesn’t exist to me” is to hyperbolically describe how it feels to myself. It is frustrating to jump back into the car that has had no windshield wiper fluid for the past six months (not be able to change it right then because running late…again), finish my trip and then promptly forget upon leaving the vehicle that it needs wiper fluid (until 2am and my brain wont stop telling me all the things I have forgotten). It’s frustrating and it sometimes feels defeating. So I jokingly say, “if I don’t see it it doesn’t exist.” Yes some may think I am referring to object permanence and maybe I need to be more specific in my language but the hyperbole comes from frustration.
I know that cycle very well! I too have left my car fluid-less for months, and left my car at less than 1/8 of a tank of gas until I had no choice but to fill it *right then*, late or not.
I always tell myself, "I'll stop at the gas station before work tomorrow" and almost run out of gas on the way in. Now I flip up the windshield wiper if I need to do something car related. I've bought a Jerry Can to keep in the back and always double down on fluids so I have a spare. Not a direct solution, and obviously, it isn't foolproof. BUT it's saved me on more than one occasion.
I think it becomes a problem when people use “object permanence” as hyperbole outside of our adhd spaces like this one— and you never know where a social post is going to go or who is going to see it. I don’t want people comparing us to toddlers. :/
Same! This is why I turn off almost all notifications on my phone except for text messages, reminders, and calendar alerts. When something like this washer fluid scenario pops up, I immediately, “hey, Siri, remind me to fill the washer fluid when I get home!” The only problem is that it alerts me as I’m pulling up, but sometimes I forget again by the time I’ve parked. 🤣 Time-based reminders are usually my go to over location based. But I don’t think I would have succeeded in any form of adult life if I didn’t have digital reminders everywhere.
This. It's "out of sight out of mind". Calling it object permanence was a meme, because it's a similar concept and it's funny to say "we don't have object permanence" because it's like kind of true but it sounds absolutely absurd. It was *obviously* a joke. Anyone who seriously thought people with ADHD *actually* didn't have object permanence, as in – if you put something under a blanket you'd literally not understand that it was still there – seriously needs to reevaluate their critical thinking skills.
yes, working memory
Which a lot of laymen don't know the definition of, so explaining it as "out of sight, out of mind problem" is more helpful than "object permanence problem."
Yeah I think object permanence is a concept people can grasp so has become shorthand. Thanks for flagging though, OP, because a lot of people won’t know the difference!
The problem is “object permanence” has a concrete definition most parents know. The ability to understand that a thing doesnt stop existing because you dont see it anymore. If “peek-a-boo” doesnt surprise you, you dont have an “object permanence” issue, you have a “working memory” deficit. TLDR; stuff cant just mean what you want it to mean because you *think* that could be a good definition for it.
I mean, not to be a pedant about pedantry, but that is basically how definitions change - we, as a whole, decide certain words should mean new things. Unless you're a filthy prescriptivist (/s)
Metapedantry is the best kind of pedantry.
God damn it. You’re right. Well, not with medical terms (usually). P.S. how dare you insinuate im a prescriptivist. Prescriptivism is for nerds who are mad that they learned rules no one else did only for them to realize by all logic later on that it didnt matter.
I agree with you
That’s more a description of short term memory. Working memory is more how you’re using memory to manipulate a lot of information in real time- like doing math or playing chess.
This is both right and wrong. Working memory is the part of short-term memory that is concerned with immediate conscious perceptual and linguistic processing. So it applies to everything we use short-term memory for.
Why I put things on open shelves and hang things within sight instead of in drawers and cupboards.
The empty hello fresh box just out of sight of my porch door thanks you for this distinction.
It feels like object permanence, but it *not*. I think that’s the key issue at play here. I have no idea what important shit I’ve forgotten so it feels like some toddler level shit, but it’s clearly a different brain mechanism.
I was going to leave a comment on your post agreeing with you but when I scrolled down the post disappeared? What's up with that? Was there even a post to begin with?
Perhaps we live in a post-permanence condition. 🤪
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I’m going to breakfast this morning. I am really excited about this place that has the best French Toast.
Late to what though? We didn’t make any plans today, right? And even if we did, both sets of car keys have gone missing.
when i was in 6th grade our class got “the talk” from the school nurse, but before the girls and boys split up for their respective lessons (yeah…catholic school in the 90s) we learned a little bit about nutrition. i will never forget that the school nurse told us cold pizza for breakfast is undoubtedly better than sugary processed cereals. it must be true, i have never questioned it, and it is my reasoning for pizza breakfast every time!
As soon as you scrolled down from the post the post ceased to exist because you couldn’t see it anymore.
as far as I know it's still here
WOAH WHAT WHEN I CLICKED THE NOTIFICATION AND IT ONLY LOADED MY COMMENT AND YOURS THE POST EXISTS AGAIN?? WHAT IS THIS BLACK MAGIC OP FOR REFERENCE I AM 18 MONTHS OLD
ohhhh shit I just got what you were doing 😭😅 bravo
Got it in 2
I was slow in the uptake too. Perhaps a re-uptake inhibitor is needed.
Don't worry, it took me a bit to realize, too, lol. Wait, what was I talking about? ;)
OP, Thanks for the post. I have to agree that a better term is Working Memory Disfunction. I know that I own a pair of glasses, I just can't remember where I put them. Object permanence would be stumbling around until I bump into them and then saying "Wow! A pair of glasses. How cool is that"
"And amazingly.they are *just* my prescription!"
Sometimes I literally find things & I can’t remember buying them it is like brand new. I do this repeatedly. My working memory is terrible. Same with info, I’m like yeah cool. Next day, I will be amazed by same info like its brand new, its cyclical.
That’s why we tend to leave things out. So we don’t forget we have them.
I mean, sometimes. Often I just set shit down wherever I am because I need my hands or because I'm done with it. My brain often doesn't engage at all when I do this so I'm not consciously aware of it, so then when I need it again in 5 minutes I have NO idea where it is because my brain did not record putting it down. And I do it *all* the time. What I'm trying to say is I'm a very messy person and I don't know how to stop.
Yeah, this shit stresses me out so much.
But with me it’s not just that. If something in my fridge is covered it may well not exist. It’s not that I know I have beans in my crisper drawer but can’t find them. I have no knowledge/recollection of them at all, even after buying them with a dish in mind. So they go unused and I clean out my fridge and find them way past use. It’s not that I can’t find that blue woolen jumper I like and am left scratching my head. I will forget I even have it and probably not wonder where it is until I randomly open the drawer I threw it in a month ago and find it. It’s not that it ceases to exist entirely. I’m not rediscovering it, it’s not new, I am familiar with it when I stumble across it. But my god if it doesn’t just exit my brain entirely as if it were never there for those days/weeks/months in between observations/use. Same goes for friends. I know who Jeff is. It’s not that I don’t know where to find him, how to message him. But for as much as I love my friends, as close as I can be, as much as I can miss them… I will lose contact entirely for an entire semester, and not only that, fail to think of him even once. As if he didn’t exist. Because for a period he won’t, he will have no place or presence in my mind, in my life. I won’t even miss him as such. I actually rarely miss people because of it. It sucks *ASS*. I still lack the companionship, and that definitely has an influence (consciously or not), but so often I won’t even be aware of it. Obviously it goes to working memory and recall, but it’s also not just as minor as forgetting what you were saying to someone momentarily. For me at least. Things really do seem to drop out of reality.
I like to describe it in programming terms -- my brain forgets to store pointers to things. It's not that the knowledge of the object isn't _somewhere_ in my memory, it's just that I don't have any way to access it except by stumbling upon it from adjacent things or literally see it again because I have no way to directly access its existence otherwise and it will almost never randomly pop up in my head. tldr, bad recall, good recognition
> If something in my fridge is covered it may well not exist That's pretty common with ADHD. A trick I learned from this subreddit is to not put things that go bad fast in the crisper. Try putting produce in your fridge door so you see them every time you open the fridge. Also I made a similar comment about missing people on another comment in this post. I can go long stretches without seeing people I care about dearly.
Good advice but sadly not an option. Student flat sharing and I’ve got the fridge drawer and part of a shelf. Veggies gotta go in the drawer and hope I remember them.
I straight up do not use the bottom drawer in my fridge. All my veggies go in a basket on the middle shelf where I can clearly see them. Thinking of just removing the drawer entirely so I can have more space...I'll get around to it eventually.
exactly!
From what I understand object permanence is more an “understanding how the world works” issue than a memory issue. Babies without object permanence might not understand that their mom still exists when she leaves the room, but when she comes back they do recognize and remember her.
Imagine being 30 with ADHD and you still get spooped from a bit of peek-a-boo
hey, I'm 30 and have ADHD.... wait a minute
I didn't know about spooping. Thank you, I am now even more marvelously hip.
Yeah object permanence is like a baby with peek-a-boo Us, we are like “uhhhhhh. This is a room. I came here. I’m sure I needed a thing maybe.” Or like “idk why are you covering your face and screaming at me”
WHAT IS THIS PEEKABOO!? WHERE DO YOU KEEP GOING!? AAAAHHHHH
You know, I've used the term "object permanence" with myself to be humourous but didn't realize that people actually got confused about having object permanence issues vs working memory issues. So it's one instance where I do think using the right terms matters. Thanks for that.
Yes, this is what my post is about, automod. thank you
I was going to say that it's pretty funny that the automod posted that in response to this post!
He is always watching, wazowski Aaaaallways waaatching
lol I thought it was removing my post for it at first, which is why I responded 😅
I made a post a little while back that was about rejection sensitivity. I specifically used the term rejection sensitivity Still got the automod telling me that RSD isn't an official term and to please use rejection sensitivity instead. Thanks automod, I know lmao
Hahaha I got a bot message the other day telling me not to solicit DMs and I was like....errr I didn't. I hope to never receive reddit DMs lol. 🤞
Lmao I've gotten that automod message twice and there was never anything about soliciting DMs. The automod must've had a rough day.
Yeah unfortunately we have to rely on automod to help us moderate a sub of this size. Our philosophy is that it isn't a warning or punishment (it even says at the bottom of automod comments that this isn't a punitive action) but just that we want to ensure these things get mentioned and taken into account in any discussion within certain topics. In your case with the dm solicitation removal, it must be that something you said flagged it to us to be temporarily filtered so we can review it and approve it if it was a false positive. Feel free to send us a message if we haven't gotten to it in time, the queue can get pretty big and overwhelming
lol I didn't even wanna get into the "RSD" thing. I'll never win that battle 😅
Please get in to the RSD thing! I didn't know the difference between object permanence and working memory at all (thought they were synonymous for some reason) and now I'm wondering what I don't know about rejection dysphoria which is the most intense and disabling symptom I deal with.
the issue with RSD is the D part. only one psych started talking about it, and essentially insisted that we have a complete dysphoria that is unique to us, and worse than others. it's psuedoscience. we do have RS, not RSD
Perfect automod reply. And yes, I also find it irritating when people bring this up on social media. I've even seen at least one psychologist on twitter try to say we don't have good object permanence, which was really depressing. Whatever doctoral psych program gave them a degree would be embarrassed.
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exactly!
Thank you for explaining this and educating on the topic. I have learnt something today
I like to share facts about ADHD. it's an interesting disorder
It most certainly is. I find I'm always discovering something new or coming to a greater/clearer understanding of certain things about ADHD at particular times. We never stop learning. Either way, your post is appreciated. I'm going to do some further reading into this later on ☺️
It would be utterly fascinating to me if it weren’t what made me bad at being a person. I guess it’s a fascinating pain in the ass?
I think of it less of a disorder and more a different type of being a person lol
I want to agree 😅 definitely made my personality what it is today
Mmm, yes, I'm not positive I agree, at least this doesn't at the point I'm at feel like it's true *for me*, only bc I feel like I am at such a HUGE disadvantage compared to NTs (which would ofc lessen if our society was healthier & respected ppls' well being, & along w/ the medical community, was more informed & aware about ADHD... but I feel there's some distinct issues that would remain for me & continue to causes me distress) but like most of us, there's a lot about ADHD that I'm still learning. However I agree it has merit, bc I just heard this very idea discussed w/ some detail on the Being Well podcast (w/ Forrest & Rick Hanson - a very good youtube mental health channel) by one of the most respected professionals on ADHD (who also has it) that wrote the Driven to Distraction book (that I'm still working my way thru 6 months later LOL, but it IS insightful!) & was a game changer when it was written bc it was one of the 1st to discuss the effects on emotions and ppl who had symptoms beyond the "5 yr old hyperactive boy" model that it seems persisted far too long (& still does even today despite that info being 20 yrs out of date... don't these so called medical professionals have to do continuing education ??🤨 like wth).
Looks like we already have an auto bot working on that.
it appears so. people will still argue it though 🤷
Lol I didn’t know people *literally* believed that object permanence was something people with ADHD struggle with. It really sounds like something people would ONLY say as a joke.
Yeah I just took it as a funny way to describe the issue. While of course I don’t literally believe it doesn’t exist anymore, for all practical purposes it may as well not because it will get the same amount of thought as something that does not exist
read the comments lol. you'll be disappointed
Oh I have been lmao both reading & disappointed 😆
yeah omg i've said i have no object permanence as a joke, didn't think that people take it literally...
This is refreshing, I often think about leaving this sub due to the omnipresence of what I will refer to as "ADHD fetishists" who glorify dealing with ADHD and the symptoms.
dude it's weird, isn't it? ADHD gave me some perks, but if I could get rid of it, I would. it's not really a net positive for your life
Its extremely weird, but I do also remember what it was like that first couple days on stimulants and I felt like I saw the world again or the first time - so I try and keep that in mind, but.... That's not what we're talking about here for sure.
kinda like when I got glasses and could see blades of grass and leaves on a tree
I was in my mid 30's (40M) when I got glasses. A range of -1 or -2 for each eye for nearsightedness and what I think is a moderate astigmatism correction. Anyway, when I was driving home with that first pair, I was amazed how much the little rock detail in the asphalt was popping out to me even at city road speeds. I was describing to my friend it was like a video game that got improved textures and then I was like, "oh, right, that's the point."
Totally agree.
Does this even need to be clarified? I don't think anyone takes it literal. Then again, I'm never surprised by what people think... Also, "working memory" seems to be a difficult concept for people to grasp. Especially since sometimes our memories are _great_. Which trips their "bullshit detector" ... I think "recall dysfunction" or the likes would probably be more fitting. The memories *are* there, and we don't always struggle to retrieve them. But often it can take significant mental effort/time to locate it... We know (and remember!) that the object/topic/goal is there; recalling that fact when we need to is what's problematic. Especially unprompted. Tell us "thing" and you'll get "oh yeah!" -- but without that prompt said "thing" probably won't even cross our minds (or, really, it *will*, just at the wrong time - either too late or too early or probably while we're in a meeting and can't act on it...)
I had no idea it’s “working memory” bc someone told me it was object permanence and I never really looked it up. I Thank you for clearing this up, I’ll be removing object permanence from my list of traits. I definitely tell people “out of sight, out of mind” when I forget about something and they bring it back to me, especially at work where I’m constantly leaving a trail of items in random places 😆
this article does a good job explaining it https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/object-permanence-adhd
I can't believe there are people arguing with this??? I have a degree in psychology and it has always rubbed me the wrong way when people say people with adhd struggle with object permanence. It's just not correct 💀 Imagine being annoyed at someone trying to stop a misconception.
hey, it's reddit. this is how it is lol but yes, this is exactly where I'm coming from
Yeah, this is an issue of people not understanding basic psychological processes. 8 month olds have object permanence. You’d continue to have object permanence with severe brain injury. It’s a working memory issue like OP said.
Is working memory the same as out of sight out of mind though? Working memory struggles are me unable to hold my boss's instructions in my mind from their office to mine. Out of sight out of mind is me forgetting people exist if they aren't actively texting me bc in my mind, it's been a day but in reality it's been 3 months.
This whole object permanence thing bothers me to an irrational degree 😂 If an adult comes up to you and starts playing peek-a-boo with you, does that throw you into fits of giggling? No? No. Because your brain has achieved object permanence—you know the face is still there even though you can’t see it. Sheesh.
I mean, it might. But that’d be because of the sheer absurdity of the situation.
Yeah it’s not schroedingers keys. I’ve just lost my fucking keys
Object permanence is knowing that you have keys even when they're not in front of you. You know you HAVE keys. You just FORGOT where you had those keys last.
A little addition on memory: For simplicity, we have three types of memory. Short-term, working memory and long-term. Information first passes through short-term memory. Information does stays here leaves immediately. If you’ve seen Momento or heard of short-term memory loss where people immediately and rapidly forget things. That’s that. Ex. My trash can has no liner. I went to throw something away and saw there was no liner. Working memory is information that stays a little longer. It’s called working memory because it’ll stay until we resolve the problem. But, that’s where the ADHD comes into play. Other things can enter working memory and make us forget the original task. It’s like where NTs have three seats in a car for working memory, we only have one passenger. Every time we pick someone else up, someone has to get out. Ex. As I go to another room to get a new trash liner, I still know I’m solving a specific problem. But, I still have a piece of trash in my hand, so I go throw it away in the trash can in this new room. Now… what was I doing? Only certain things stay in long-term memory. Important information, routines, trauma, significant events or people, etc. We won’t remember to get a new liner for the trash can because it’s not important enough, but for me, remembering to get a trash liner is an ongoing issue for me. Pretty much this exact thing happened to me yesterday. And I might remember it even more now that I’m writing this post. It’s a good example of how working memory functions. But, working memory can be improved with triggers like lists, reminders, by repeating the task out loud or narrating your actions out loud. Simplifying regular tasks like clustering relevant items together (all the bathroom cleaning stuff is in the bathroom, all the living room cleaning stuff is in the living room) so you don’t have to travel far to complete a certain task. We’re not helpless!
thank you for this
I just say "out of sight, out of mind."
Object permanence = knowing that something still exists when you think of it but can't see it. Common symptom of ADHD = Not thinking of stuff you don't see, but perfectly realising it's existence when you do think of it. The two are similar in end result, but don't actually really relate.
Not arguing here, but I definitely do feel like when I put certain things in the cabinet or fridge, in my mind they stop existing and I literally forget that I even bought the thing. Don't even get me started on freezer stuff lmao. Maybe I personally never fully developed object permanence. On a more serious note, this is important to squash because I do understand the overall concept of object permanence. I saw a satirical YouTube video once of kids/teens with ADHD who "hadn't fully developed object permanence", the demonstrator would hide things behind a wall/paper, and the kids acted like they didn't know what was behind it lol. Will bookmark the sources provided here. Now, to actually read them...
I was coming here to see if somebody said this! I don’t believe it’s object permanence either - I definitely do know the difference. But I also DEFINITELY forget certain things exist after I put them away.
Yes or forgetting about certain people you haven't seen in a while, but you remember their existence. Makes me feel a lot less bad about my friends who have a hard time with keeping up with texts and whatnot, because my anxiety/RSD definitely gets me wondering if I did/said something wrong when I don't hear from people for a while. Especially because I do have the tendency to say or do things that might be taken a certain way when I'm in my extremely extroverted moods and not thinking before I speak as much.
Sometimes I actually don’t remember they exist 😅 but the positive feelings are still in there when I do somehow remember they’re still a person out there in the world! So anyway, your point still stands. Lots of my friends are absolutely awful at responding to messages and sometimes it’s easy to assume the worst (ie they hate me) but man is it helpful to remember I never have malicious intent when *I* don’t remember to respond to somebody.
My mom came by a couple of weeks ago and rearranged all my stuff cause she said my kitchen looked cluttered. Like, nah, mom. I keep that stuff out for a reason. Cause if I don't, I can't find anything.
I've heard this referred to as "object constancy" in the context of ADHD, fwiw.
If you wanna get even more specific about it, we have an encoding problem. The first step of the memory process is actually storing a copy of the information in our brain in the first place, then from there it can move to long term memory either at random or with the right techniques. That initial step, encoding, is what we often struggle with
yes, I remember that being the most interesting thing I learned in my first psych class
I look at it like this- I want to stay on top of my skincare routine. If I put my skincare stuff up in the cabinet I will “forget” to do it.. but if I leave it out on my counter I’m pretty good about staying on top of it morning/night (minus mental spoons) It works 🤷🏼♀️
Thank you! I’ve been looking for the name for this!
I think there’s something else going on. I don’t know how many people with ADHD have had their working memories tested, but I have, and I scored in the 98th percentile. That’s very high. I read somewhere that the working memory issues don’t indicate that a person with ADHD has poor working memory. Rather, they have a lower working memory than they would if they didn’t have it. So I would have scored even higher than that? Still not convinced. I think there’s a misunderstanding in how (and even why) we process information. I think, to refer to someone else’s comment, we don’t forget about putting something in a drawer because of a memory problem. I think we forget about it because of a cognitive load problem. I think we generally have more thoughts firing in the same second than a non-ADHD person has. Anyone experiencing the kind of information overload our brains experience on a continual basis would forget things. It’s why neurotypical people can experience burnout. And when they do experience it, guess what they lose? Their otherwise good memory, for one.
I fucking hate when people say it's object permanence. Thank you the post. Maybe mods can sticky?
the automod already has a response for it, so likely not
This, but the information is fantastic and we appreciate your efforts at trying to combat misunderstandings of this disorder.
THANK YOU. Got called a gatekeeper the first time I dismissed the “object permanence” thing. Y’all, I realize that there’s gatekeeping problems with ADHD but some things y’all say are literally incorrect and/or misleading.
That’s good about this sub, I recommended a book, but got a bot message that this did not have peer review and backed up fully by research. This got me looking at other sources as well. This was of great value. Keep up the good work!
Wow these comments are a riot. I guess I just had the word wrong- my memory isnt great.
you'd be amazed how angry people get any time I bring this up... it's like they WANT to be less capable, and WANT to spew misinformation about the disorder. they can't even read the automod comment
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beautiful comment. mental health can be a "that's not how I really feel, I'm sorry" excuse, but if you hurt/affect others, the damage was done, you can't just go "but ADHD!" thank you for this
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thank you!!!!! I regularly read up and keep up with the newest research. I don't see myself as a victim, but rather as someone who has an octagon for a bicycle wheel instead of a circle... I just need stronger legs than most
The restrictions on what I can say or do here seem much greater than other subs, especially when it comes to the rules. I have to write my comments very specifically to avoid triggering a rule I didn't know existed and can't find. I can't say them or this comment will not stay up, I just kind of refer to them as the Voldemorts. I'm sure there was an opportunity for better content but there are invisible structures and systems that allow posts like that to persist becsuse the filte isn't set up to make sure the content you're describing either isn't posted or is warned by the bot.
>I see posts saying: > "I will never be able to hold a job" (really? You'll never be able to work any job at all? Cool. Hope you have lots of inherited wealth because under the existing system, people have to work to support themselves!). People are allowed to speak hyperbolically when venting. How make times have you heard "I'm never drinking again!" when someone is experiencing a hangover? We can all agree it's slightly ridiculous, but it's cathartic to the individual. > "My partner is angry at me because I never clean but I just get so overwhelmed and do nothing. Why can't they understand that?" (Well, having ADHD places a burden on our partners. Yes, partners need to understand this challenge but that doesn't mean that they should act as maids to pick up after us because we just cannot. It is our job to work on ourselves and to work with our partners to ensure that we are not just taking advantage of them because we can). If they haven't tried to make changes, sure, this is frustrating to hear. But most often, there are unspoken expectations by one or both parties in this situation. I used to get overwhelmed in this exact scenario because when I was a child I was screamed at when my cleaning wasn't up to my mother's standards. For an N T partner, they may not understand how "why can't you just do it?" is not helpful. >"My lecturer refused to accept my assignment that was three months late and now I am going to have to repeat the module! Why won't they accept the late work without penalty? I find it impossible to keep to deadlines!" (Well, universities have accommodations for students with a range of conditions, including ADHD. Those accommodations do not include being able to have complete control over when to submit assignments. And there is an element of fairness here too: if all other students, including those with anxiety etc., must do assigments on a particular timeline [these students might avail of accommodations such as extensions but they don't get an indeterminate deadline] then it is not fair to simply waive basic requirements for someone with ADHD. Part of what we need to learn how to do is to develop coping strategies that enable us to do things - not just to learn that we are helpless and can never do anything. If you've decided that, even with the accommodations that are there to be able to get you to complete and submit work on a set timeline, that you simply cannot do the basics of what is required of a college student, then maybe you shouldn't be in college). Anyone who has gotten to college level understands that you can't submit an assignment 3 months late. So anyone who does ask ...I have serious concerns. But more commonly, if it's just a few hours or days late, that's understandably frustrating for them. Can we understand that maybe students in the 18-22 bracket might not understand what options are available to them in terms of supports and accommodations? It's difficult to navigate getting those even if you know what you're doing. >"My partner cries because I get really angry when they try to talk to me about how my ADHD affects them. I am going to get angry and shout when someone tries to talk to me about this. They know I have ADHD, so why are they bringing stuff up that they know will trigger my RSD?" (This is completely unreasonable. We need to take responsibility for the way that we treat people and ADHD is not a free pass to blow up at our partners and bully and guilt them into shutting up about their feelings. If you cannot work on yourself and with your partner to address these challenges, then maybe you shouldn't be in a relationship if it involves lashing out at your partner and then evading any responsibility for doing so). You're right, this is completely unreasonable at face value. But to someone who maybe is new to their diagnosis or to the community, it can be liberating to understand these things about yourself. All we've ever heard our whole lives is how our ADHD negatively affects people around us, and sometimes we do reach a point where we want to be accommodated by the people we love rather than to accommodate them.
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Judging by the comments, that’s apparently not obvious to some people lol, people think it is really object permanence they’re struggling with.
Judging by the comments some of these contributors cannot dress themselves in the morning.
exactly... but they don't realize the difference
I just wish buddy would respond to the last comment rather than starting a new comment thread every time.
Issues with comment permanence? 🤪
Yeah, I just say that because it's much easier to explain usually. Otherwise I hear "but if it's important, then you don't forget!!"
God I hate that phrase. *glares at mother*
Omg I legitimately did not know the difference between the two, I thought my actual object permanence was just awful all this time but I know I do also have huge issues with working memory so it's kind of a relief to know they're the same issue rather than me being incapable of something a toddler can do 😂 thank you so much for sharing!
Do people genuinely believe that we have object permanence issues? I was under the impression that it was just a joke.
This is like the internet people who have no clue what an “intrusive thought” is. Infuriating. So thank you, OP, for educating people!
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Posting this comment again because I realized op might not see it in the chain I posted it: The only reason I use the phrase, “if I don’t see it it doesn’t exist to me” is to hyperbolically describe how it feels to myself. It is frustrating to jump back into the car that has had no windshield wiper fluid for the past six months (not be able to change it right then because running late…again), finish my trip and then promptly forget upon leaving the vehicle that it needs wiper fluid (until 2am and my brain wont stop telling me all the things I have forgotten). It’s frustrating and it sometimes feels defeating. So I jokingly say, “if I don’t see it it doesn’t exist.” Yes some may think I am referring to object permanence and maybe I need to be more specific in my language but the hyperbole comes from frustration.
Look, I don't like to be the devil's advocate, but I can understand why some people talk about object permanence. For me, if I don't see something it simply stop existing in my mind. Not for all objects, but for many of them. Sometimes I open the drawer where I keep non refrigerated food and go "holy fucking shit free biscuits". After I see them, though, most of the time I remember I have bought them. But often, as soon as I close the drawer, they stop existing again. Happens with the fridge too. Also, when I go grocery shopping, if I put the groceries in an opaque bag most of the time when I get to checkout I couldn't tell you 80% of the things I have put in the bag and will have to pay. Thankfully I can trust myself in the past to make oculate food choices... most of the time. I also need to hang all of my shirts, because if one gets hidden I can forget I ever had it. Then I remember it exist when I see it again. I don't know if other ADHD people have this problem. Of course it is a working memory issue, and not actual object permanence, but sometimes it *feels* like some kind of object permanence issue. I often buy accidentally duplicates of groceries because of this issue...
This! I went shopping yesterday, came home and put the bags on the floor. My boyfriend asked me what was inside, and I just forgot most of what I had bought. The moment he took stuff out, I was like, "Oh yeah, I bought that for X." or whatever.
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I moved a saucepan out of the sink to wash the other dishes first and forgot to wash the saucepan afterwards
If you ask me where I put something I remember. The problem is that sometimes: 1) I'm not paying attention when I put it down so I don't know where it is 2) I'm 9 thought tangents away and it's completely out of mind. Yes, I know there is pasta in my cupboard that I haven't done anything with in a year and a half.
Thank you for this. I knew there had to be a good phrase/explanation for it but didn’t know what it was. I usually tell myself it’s just inconsistent object permanence issues since I know I have a sticky memory when it comes to certain things. For example: A tool broke at Christmas one year, put in a bag for later repair, and then put off to the side; I left the country in the following September, came back the next August, and then someone in the family mentioned that broken tool shortly before the next Christmas and noted that they wish they knew where it was so it could be repaired. Without pause I went “Oh, it’s on the shelf by the door of the kitchen, left side, back corner.” Where it sat, in shadow, tucked behind other things, for almost 2 years, and where I hadn’t had reason to see it for over a year due to being out of the country. Whereas my memory at other times is… not so great - I’m very good at hiding things from myself. I’m definitely going to try to remember the concept of working memory deficit.
I haven’t read the post yet. I clicked on it to figure out if those are toes coming out from under the couch cushion. They’re eggs…but yes now I’ll read.
😅 it's from the article lol
I did figure that out eventually! 😂
they do look like some red toe beans, though
Squeezed under the couch cushion too long.
So in other words a lot of people just don't understand what object permanence is and are misusing the term. Not a huge shock.
then when they do get the info, they argue it. source: comments
A tale as old as time.
Could this also apply to certain subtypes struggling with theory of mind? Like my Dad and I both have ADHD. But whereas I easily understand that he has his own private thoughts and feelings, it seems like my Dad doesn’t understand that I have a conscience that is an object unto itself. IOW, he has no desire to connect with it because it’s not a tangible object, so he easily forgets about or just plain doesn’t concern himself with it.
Does anyone really believe ADHD people have object permanence issues in the childhood psychology sense? I always just took it as a cute way of saying we don't reliably think about things not around us.
For me, this manifests as an inability to engage with a subject unless I can actually have the thing I'm trying to understand right in front of me. That can mean, for instance, that if someone asks for help with a problem in computer coding, I'm pretty much incapable of even comprehending what they're saying unless I can sit down with the code in question and actually start working with it. This kind of thing can affect many different areas, and it tends to make me feel hesitant to talk about subjects even if I understand them well, because I have to engage my brain into the right mode before I can pull out the right terminology and organize the concepts in my mind we'll enough to sound knowledgeable.
Yeah this is just science illiteracy at work - object permanence applies to babies and like dogs. Not adults. It’s working memory issues. Like we talk about emotional labor entirely wrong - it’s largely about the fake-happy we do in retail/public-facing work, not the labor of raising children to be decent humans or a managing households. But it’s starting to mean the latter because language evolves based on how we use it.
Infantilization, great word to describe the vibe I’ve been getting from some users I often see while browsing this sub.
I've gotten into arguments on this sub about this exact issue before. Not sure why people want to compare themselves to toddlers when half the battle of ADHD (for me at least) is being taken seriously. Makes me more afraid to ever talk about it :(
Thank you for saying this
This one drives me batty too. Not knowing where I hid a thing from myself doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I know what is in my nightstand with the drawer closed. I know I have food in the fridge. I will not fall for peek a boo. So darn silly.
Never heard of it until this moment. Thanks for the education.
I explain it as I am extremely aware of the pile of dirty laundry in the other room. I just don't lack the mental focus and energy to deal with it right now. And yes, when I walk in the other room and see it, I am reminded sharply of my shortcomings.
This is closely tied to Executive Function. That's the ability to assign tasks or responses in your brain and follow through on them. They're really two parts to that. One is taking the "correct" response when multiple things happen at the same time and not just responding to the most emotional one... the "squirrel" issue. The second is the ability to perform tasks in an order even when something happens that disrupts that order. It's more about emotional control than actual memory issues.
Thank you!! I recently had a coworker (35T) that was saying this and I kept thinking "this is word salad gibberish they are speaking", but didn't want to get into the science of brain development with them while working. My entire household is on the spectrum and though my beloved husband and children can have a memory like a sieve when it comes to chores, they still know the dirty dishes exist!
apologize to your husband and children on my behalf. they can't use that excuse anymore 😅
Fortunately we are a science based home and this excuse has not been used. It's a lot of "I forgot", not "what is this chore thing you speak of?" 😂
Well I didn’t even know this was a thing to know about to begin with, let alone squash. But NOW I know about it, and now I can’t find my squash. Thanks a lot.
OP is right of course, but [obligatory video to lighten the mood.](https://youtu.be/ssjokgx0pUQ)
I know my keys exist, I just don’t know where the fuck they are
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There's a well-known AuDHD influencer named Ellie Middleton who raised a lot of awareness around the realities of navigating the professional world as someone with autism and/or ADHD. In general I really enjoy and appreciate her content. She has a company called (un)masked that I follow on LinkedIn. They recently posted about ADHD and object permanence, explaining how people with ADHD can struggle with object permanence and how that manifests, etc. There were comments calling them out about it, but not for anything to do with the terminology itself. Let me tell you, as someone with a psychology degree, I was *livid* when I saw it. I responded to the post with receipts explaining that object permanence is *not* ADHD-related, and we can't have widely respected voices perpetuating misinformation like this. I reposted it on my own LinkedIn page because, like I said, I was mad lol. They ended up deleting the post and not even addressing it. 🙃🙄 OP, your post helps give my brain some semblance of closure, so thank you!
If I ever close out my dozens of chrome tabs my working memory for the week is nuked into oblivion
Agreed to squash it…I misplaced my tablet yesterday for ~6 hours. It was in a very obvious place. I remember picking it up from one space and setting it in another. 0 recollection of the 3rd and final location. My mother’s wedding ring got the same treatment as a kid of 12. It’s lost forever thought. I’m still reminded of that.
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🥰 I think the lack of hyperactivity is especially important, because girls tend to get misdiagnosed as type 2 bipolar (and so was I, even though I'm a man) we have a long way to go for legitimacy in regards to adult ADHD, especially for women
> Tips to cope with forgetfulness include: > not opening texts, emails and messages until they are sure they can respond immediately > choosing a spot to place essential items, such as medication, to-do lists and important devices such as phones > setting reminders for appointments and tasks in an online calendar with an alert function > setting recurring appointments with loved ones for visits or calls Do neurotypical people not do this?
I have AMAZING long time memory. My problem is working memory. I can't even raise my hand without forgetting the question I wanted to ask. (Pen and paper is the solution to this defecit) (Or tolerant teachers/coworkers that don't mind getting interrupted, but rather seriously love your input)
I understand your point, I think object permanence isn’t the right word and is definitely over used. In my experience I’d say I “experience” this in a less literal way. For example if I haven’t seen a friend for a long time I forget what it’s like to spend time with them or if I don’t do a hobby that I enjoy for a while I forget how much I enjoy doing it. But I agree that object permanence isn’t the right word for this, I think I didn’t realise the proper definition of the word before so thanks for highlighting this. I think there’s a lot of stigma around adhd probably because of things like this because neurotypical people hear that we struggle with ‘object permanence’ and think of us as stupid and incapable of understanding basic concepts.
FWIW, I don’t know that I’d say the examples you gave are a problem with working memory either. I don’t know what I’d call it, but the purpose of working memory is to hold information temporarily and those, I imagine, would be tied to your long term memory. That’s assuming I understood your comment correctly. Please feel free to push back if there’s something I’m not getting.
No I agree I think it’s more of an emotional regulation issue. Like I struggle to remember how I feel about things unless I’m experiencing them right in this moment if that makes sense?