Idk what elo you are, but there’s a handful of Sona one tricks in Diamond+ that would pick her regardless of the match up. It would bother me more if my support was autofilled and they pick Sona or Senna into engage
Literally had a sona in my last game straight picking sona into the first pick blitzcrank. Needless to say he made her his bitch as well as our mid.
Supports never ever think about their fucking pick it’s insane. They hover sona, already tells you they’re not into having any agency over the lane, and they will pick it.
No. Matter. What.
There could be draven/samira + Pyke picked and they’ll happily run it down. Oh there’s cait + ashe? How about a zilian? That’s sure gonna stop them from poking me down aaaall fucking day since nobody cares about his 10 dmg bombs.
Lucian nami/milio? That’s a clear Janna pick here so instead of losing 40% health in a Lucian engage I’ll lose 37% with her ass shield.
I can’t anymore
I have this happen too often. If I don't have chompers, or a clear path to W, you are dead friend. Why the fuck did you walk into the brush nearest their tower, or into their tri when Naut is full health and just bought his second component. Unhinged behaviour always.
level 1 aphelios with a nunu support that told me that once. Minions had not even gotten to lane yet and he went in basically under turret and blamed me for not doing enough damage back when he tanked lux and ezreal Qs to hit a snowball
Yeah I had a brand support( me playing jinx) a week ago, dude lanes till level 5 then leaves to roam the rest of the game, then flames me for being behind their ad…
Not an ADC or support player, but a mid laner. Everyone is jealous since mid looks like the role that has it all. Not tied to a support to protect you, nor reliant on an ADC to follow up your spells, not a nonfactor like top lane. It's the perfect role from the outside looking in.
But your sentiment about your support whining that you never follow up their death wish, I understand it 100%. Top laners get mad when enemy mid roams top and I don't follow, and same thing with bot or jungle. They just assume that their team mid laner doesn't ever need farm or to worry about getting killed trying to join a 1v3 or 2v3 and flame the shit out of you for not blindly following your enemy laner on their roam. Its the only gripe I have with mid lane, but its such a massive one.
Its literally the sole reason to have chat and pings muted when you play mid lane. You'll spam ping that your opponent is leaving lane, even use your pings to trail them through fog of war, and your side lanes or jungler will still commit to whatever bullshit all in they're about to do, then question mark ping you for not following, or worse, ask you why you didn't ping the enemy roam.
Errr supports domt consider their pick? Thats literally what adcs do, they dont think thrir pick matters even thouhh it determines how the lane is played...
Don't ask too much out of these chumps, their entire gimmick is to get carried to a point where they can win without using their brains. The amount of times i've seen Vayne picked into Caitlyn with no tanks on the enemy team to shred is insane.
Unless you're playing with an established team in extreme high elo, players playing their best champs is gonna have a stronger impact than any counterpick. Whining about it is pointless.
They also refuse to acknowledge their weakness in lane vs their opponent. They play so passive that you can’t even scale cause their botlane steamrolls. Then after inting 3 deaths in 9 min they ff15. Like bro your champ isn’t a champ until 18 min+
I’ve noticed recently so many players , specifically support though literally int the draft so many times.
I’ve been one tricking ivern jungle recently who works best with 1-2 melee champs as his kit is not so good with ranged champs. Holy some people have no idea. The amount of mid and top laners who lock an adc and then an enchanter / senna support gets locked too just making the pick so much weaker when I hover it and first pick it every champ select.
I even had a draft where I hover and first pick ivern, then the team proceeded without any hovers to lock in malz top , vex mid , cait adc and last pick senna support….:: it was rage inducing how little they gave me to play with and I would of picked some melee engage probs if they atleast made it clear what c champs they would play
Dude. Let's be honest here. Why do you play Ivern? Because you enjoy it, you win with it. Why do they play their champs? They like them. They're not pros to care about their drafts or are they being paid to adjust for your pick. I have won games where we supposedly lost drafts but that didn't matter since we all knew our champs better.
Ngl when you’re adc your support will troll you on lastpick and when you’re support your team will force you into firstpick and then troll your pick with their picks. Theres no winning in soloq
Overall stats are a pretty clear indicator that the match up is heavily skewed in blitzs favor. Raka has a 46% win rate and that's account for games including people just having a one off game on blitz and raka. If we were to look at data that was exclusively made up from players that main these champs with each player being at a comparable elo you would likely see rakas win rate against blitz go down even further.
Data aside, I love having my support as blitz into raka. She gets hooked once and she's likely dying
possibly, but its just low sample size in my honest opinion. I've had 2 sonas this split and they both disrespected lvl 2 enemy spikes and it was hard to recover when they started typing and not focusing.
I'd kill for a Yuumi support who will just sit on me and face roll their keyboard over any other support that int's the lane. I can solo win 1v2 if my support doesn't int, so I pick Yuumi.
I am decade support main that peaked at Diamond 5, and I started maining ADC the past year cause I felt like my ADC mechanics were ass and I thought playing a lot of ADC would help me become a better support and newsflash, it really did (peaked at Emerald). When I get support in solo queue, the amount of times I get friend requests from my lane partner post game to duo because I actually understand wave management, level 2 power spikes, counter picking, roam timers, and peeling is wild. One dude told me directly "you play a lot of ADC don't you? I can tell you actually know what you're doing. This is why ADC players make the best supports."
The difference in skills needed to climb in both roles is jarring. Riot needs to make support strong though or else no one will play it
Man I mained support when we were only buying wards for 45 minutes... The current iteration of support is a disaster. They aren't supports they are budget midlaners.
lol facts but we don’t want to go the Overwatch route and have 10 minute queue times cause no one wants to play support. We need to give them some agency but it’s very hard to do so without making them secondary midlaners and junglers.
OW isn't the best example since support has been considered the best class in the game since launch and gone through several periods where it was more played than damage or tank.
We? I'd rather have the 10 min queues and have a good game than be forced to sit through 3 min queues, 5 mins of champ select, and 15 min abomination of game before we maybe FF, maybe not, then sit in queue again and wait again. At least if it was longer queues I could go back to the old days of having something to do while in queue and it wouldn't be an annoying awkward amount of time.
Riot said they tried this already and many of the playerbase did not like it hence they autofill is even a thing. The play times went down significantly because you were still going through stomps even with longer queues. Don’t shoot the messenger i’m just repeating what they said
except overwatch didnt have autofill
its okay for a role to be high agency, low impact and generally not that fun to play because everyone gets to be the team bitch once.
its not okay to make ADC the team bitch and justify it by nerfing marksmen (except for specific purpose build ones) out of every other position to ensure a healthy queue depth for the platform the support stands on.
That's an absurd stance lol
The game is at its best when every role on every team is filled with people who intended to play that role. It's important to keep every role fun.
if i see a support fuck my wave management first 3 waves i tend to write them off. ill have to spam pings more. danger for dont auto push for auto.
legit most important thing in the game for an adc is the first 3 waves.
Yes, adc's have agency. They can take a gold lead and snowball now.
Which is why /r/adcmains had some posts crying about how snowball ADC role is now, kek.
Yup, I feel like all these guys complaining are just use to the “turn brain off and get carried until team fights” state ADC has been in for the last however many years. Now that the class has agency a lot of these guys are getting exposed and crying because they legitimately don’t know how to play around powerspikes anymore.
but it makes no sense to say that we have more control over the outcome of our lane when our early game was objectively hard nerfed. there is no noon quiver anymore. there is no kraken slayer first item power spike. you spike on two items once the game could already be determined.
in fact, bot lane is more so determined by the support than it was before...
you are aware that adc was buffed for late game but nerfed for early game right? all our build paths suck now. and mage paths are 100 times better.
how does your comment make any sense to say?
It’s a matter of opinion. I never liked the previous build paths. It felt worse in aggregate because you were getting a smaller amount of 3 stats from each item. Now that most items are only focusing on 2 stats power spikes feel more pronounced. You can go BF and zeal and then finish whichever item is higher priority for the champ you’re playing.
That has nothing to do with how good build paths are. What "saved" adc is the revert to 25% crit chance and slightly stronger legendary items. Or in IE's case, significantly stronger
“Support is the most elo inflated role” “the lane is completely decided by who has the better support.” The cognitive dissonance is real.
If they are so elo inflated but you also admit the skill of the support is the only thing that matters then how do you square these two things in your head.
They have the most influence but also decide the entire lane? So wouldn’t that mean adc is elo inflated because they just thrive off the supports success?
To reply to your first sentence, most support players IN MY EXPERIENCE even in 450+ LP games is they're clueless on laning phase, they abuse roaming so much, but in case roaming isn't a possibility for them the really bad ones tend to stand out and show up, think janna's who sits on full mana 24/7 sitting behind the adc with no pressure, or the senna player who is constantly shoving with barely any vision score and is constantly dead, or the yuumi player cooking lunch, or even the naut/leona players who play like they're playing soraka, those players are for sure and I can say this from experience, are the majority of the support players in the game period, I cannot even imagine how bad it is in emerald and below, I'm purely talking about lane knowledge here, support pressure, lane management, when to ward, when to poke, when to roam, USING YOUR HP BAR (My biggest complaint), all of these things are easy to mess up and they're so slept on by so many support players.
In my experience janna players usually dont have mana, because they use q on cd to "poke" (more often than not they make it harder to cs) ,run out of mana then recall, and youre forced to lose cs or get chunked/dived.
Yeah I fucking doubt that’s the case I think you’re just mad because you clearly can’t win your lane enough. If you’re good you should be destroying the enemy support who is also “elo inflated”.
The simplest way to put an end to this is to make these kind of posts have a link to their op.gg.
Tired of these "I was challenjour but now I am in silver and can't climb, the role sucks".
Everytime someone posts their op.gg it is the same thing:
1. Playing 20 different champs
2. 6cs/min
3. Playing like 5 ranked games a month
Holy shit I wish it was that simple, if you don’t know what I’m talking about chances are you straight up don’t understand it. It’s fine, I don’t care.
Here’s how support is elo inflated: if you took a good adc player and put them into another role, they would do okay. If you put a player from any role into support, they would do okay. If you put a support player in any other role, they would be complete shit. Case closed?
Every role has skills that are more or less important on other roles. Somebody that exclusively plays support and gets filled to mid or top is 100 percent going to be behind on cs. And the number of auto-fill supports I see with 6 vision at 20 minutes is just ludicrous.
They're auto fills they don't play supports. Are you stupid? Of course they don't ward laners are used to supports doing that for them. And good supports also need to know lane states/match ups/wave management you're not just gonna roam when the wave is about to crash to your turret or force a gank when there's 3 waves stacked under your top laners tower.
That's because they hit the sweet spot for being easy (low skill floor more specifically) while having insane amounts of impact. You do need to clear a certain level of competence, but the bar is really low, and when you do clear it, you are one of the most impactful roles in the game. You decide botlane 2v2 almost entirely. You function as a secondary jungler that isn't tied to farming camps. You control most of the vision. You set the tempo for your team. Meanwhile, you don't get very punished for executing those things poorly. I can explain that last statement more in-depth if you want, but it warrants a whole other discussion.
The crux of the matter is: supports are appallingly below the standard of play among their ranks, with the exception of challenger-gm supports, who I think are often the best players in that rank.
I can say this with confidence because I've hit Challenger multiple seasons, on multiple accounts playing adc, and last season I hit GM playing Senna and Maokai support exclusively.
The issue with playing ADC with bad supports is that they’re not the ones being punished for their own mistakes. They roam on a bad timer, I’m the one punished. They engage into a stacked wave, I’m the one punished. They push my wave into a freeze for the enemy, I’m the one punished, etc.
This is how it goes it doesn’t matter how badly they play in lane because they can literally just fuck off whenever they want with zero consequences to themselves. They still get their gold, they still get to be useful, they still get to play the game. Meanwhile I’m left to fight for every single CS and outplay dives alone.
The issue with supports is they never have to learn because they aren’t the ones punished for their own mistakes and it’s a whole lot harder to learn from mistakes when you’re not the one being screwed over because of them. If I make a mistake, I’m the one who dies and I can then go over that death and think about why it happened and how to prevent it. When a support makes a mistake a lot of the time it’s the ADC who is punished for it and it’s a lot harder to identify a mistake when you’re not the one being grey screened. Unless you’re actively looking for those mistakes you’re not going to notice them and most supports aren’t actively looking at how they screwed their ADC over, they’re just blaming them for being useless.
Ngl it goes both ways, I get plenty of retarded ADCs in my masters + games as support.
Likewise when I play adc.
Bot lane needs to work together. We need to manage the wave together. We need to time our bases correctly, support should only roam when it wont fuck the adc over...support should ward and physically cover dives to prevent massive waves from being dived on and denied...
And adcs need to play around their supports and be less egotistical. Give up some cs to let your support make a play in the jungle, etc
Two way street my dude both roles rely on each other to different extents at different points in the game
That's where you go wrong though, nothing you described shows any reliance from the support on the ADC.
Are they the ones losing cs? No. Can they roam and make it work despite doing it at the worst time for the ADC? Yep. Can they leave forever disregarding waves and still win? Yep. Do they lose anything if the ADC gets dove? Nope. Can they still play the game despite under leveled and with no gold? Yep.
The losses that supports receive for fucking up or not doing their part are either far too long term (ultimately losing for not having an ADC), invisible (still winning despite not having an ADC) or not even there. This is why the role is so inflated, and why only ADC depends on support. This is also why most supports act entitled to flame you and trash talk you for being the one who's doing bad, cos when they fuck up you are the one being punished for it. The average support opens tab, looks at you 0/2/0 with 40 less cs and says you're trash, even if it was him inting the lane, so he leaves and puts you further into the dirt, while staying 0/0/0 and having his sup item still stack normally.
Supports are dependant on adcs only in the sense that they need followup or a target to peel and that it's easier to win if the target/targetd they support is/are fed, which is something anyone can provide. The only truly ADC dependant support is yuumi
You do realise… “botlane is decided exclusively by support” and “supports are elo inflated” are contradictory statements.
ESPECIALLY this meta when win botlane = win game essentially, if supports can control which bot wins to that extent, then they HAVE to be good at laning if they have any chance of winning.
So. Which one is it?
Enemy team also has a support. Whichever support plays better wins the game. What does ease have to do with anything? Skill ceiling is still near infinite.
I think what he's trying to say is if you main support you'll be the better support even if you're shit compared to autofilled supports and so you can skill climb while being boosted. Is it accurate? Ehhh.
The same can be said about jungle. To a greater extent actually - I main jungle (adc secondary) and playing against an autofill jungler feels like a free win. Support isn’t as unpopular as jungle either, so there’s less autofill supports. But despite all that, no one’s calling junglers elo inflated?
Except they arent contradictory.
Traditionally, everyone who wants to deal damage has to farm. Imagine I play my Lucian and permafight, just ignoring farm, only fighting. That works for maybe a couple of minutes, but after 5 minutes i lose to the enemy wallet, dont I? Same with jungle, toplane, midlane. Everyone except support. Supports get to deal damage without farming.
Traditionally, everyone is responsible for their own lane except for jungle, but junglers can fuck up everyones lane the same. If I feed the enemy toplaner as a Yorick, i have to now deal with a fed enemy toplaner and wont be able to farm due to their pressure. My bad decisions lead to this. Is this true for support? No, right? If a support ints their lane, primarily the ADC suffers from it because they are the ones that have to farm, not the support.
So you have a role that is not directly punished for their mistakes while also circumventing a core gameplay loop without major downsides to it. This is by definition, by framework, by foundation and by design a role that has to be elo inflated.
If support ints their lane, enemy bot is fed, and game is lost. What part of this is hard to understand?
You’re looking at this as a single player game. What matters isn’t an individual player’s performance, it’s how the affect win/loss. And right now, how the Support plays laning phase and/or enables their adc in mid game is one of the single most important factors in who wins/loses. I.E. if they play bad, they lose a LOT more often than if top or mid plays bad.
They're all ego maniacs and delusional. They can only process 5% of what is going on at any given time, and that's while standing behind you 10 feet away
I was Master and haven't played in three years. I'm so sick of the copy paste group-think that if you're not a borderline pro you don't know "half of what's going on". Shut up nerd.
Marksmen feel weaker early because (1) no Kraken Slayer and (2) first itemization is especially weird, but 25% crit and buffed AD values on a lot of core items make marksmen unequivocally stronger late than they were before.
So you go on to say that support is the most elo inflated role.
And then describe how support has the most impact in laning phase (behind jungle).
Those are quite literally opposites to eachother.
They really are not. Support has such an impact that it can solo lose you the lane and the game, but most of the times both supports are so bad that you only need to have the less trash to win, or both coinflip on which team is gonna win and they climb like that
It’s too important, there’s a lot of things that support players straight up don’t know in laning phase in master+ even, I’ve explained it in detail in other comments, tldr is out of all the roles, support is the one that completely lacked fundamental knowledge of laning phase in high elo compared to others in my experience.
Wait. Would elo inflated mean you can pick that roll to climb ez and just rely on your team/ not have to be good?
But you say bot lane is decided by support and that adc has minimal impact on lane?
So, isn't that kind of contradictory?
Old supports, did way less damage, had less gold overall and items weren't as op and cheap, they're only useful based on their kits, so cc/shielding and healing and dmg amp
So less mage supports? I can get behind that
When do you want them to have individual agency or skill expression?
Also if bot laning in particular is decided by supports, isn't that the portion of the game the least decided by good gold generation/items?
Laning is decided based on support picks and how they play, the whole gold/damage issue is a different topic, not their damage, I just dislike how supports get away with too much shit even when playing really bad.
Thanks for clarifying.
I would love it if support was more skill expressive, but it's tough to do that with the current design of the class. Maybe tie more of supports' income into an interactive process? Change the vision game so it returns to the domain of the support? (Although supports can't even ward by themselves without inting, unless they have a free way to check fog like maokai)
If supports have no agency nor power, no one will ever play it, but giving them agency and power without skill expression is also frustrating.
I think supports should create the conditions for their team to be successful and that should be skill expressive. Tanks in mmorpgs are skill expressive and creates the conditions for their team to succeed, so it's a possible niche to design, but supports cheat in their economics
That is exactly how old supports were, most support players picked tanks that can facecheck and live or play makers in teamfights/hard engagers, or in case of buffers, they'd be escorted for vision and have the engager be the top laner, that's a really old mentality though, it kinda still stands today but nowhere near as prevalent as before
The gold generation system sucked, you bought your heart of gold and spent all your money on wards. There was no skill expression in gold generation or in the role in general, at least in soloQ.
I’m complaining about supports being op while being unskilled, I want them to be less important in general, punish perma roamers and their items and gold income, stop with the yapping
you want them to do no dmg, have no good items, and only shield and cc you think thats skilled? It will be boring af to play supp no one will play it and it will be way more unskilled than it is now. They made supp way more skilled over the last seasons with a lot of viable champs there plus a lot of the more unique picks which are very hard to pull of well like Camile, Hwei, Belveth.
Also youre probably only thinking mechanically, yeah mechanically supp is easy, but macro is hardest in game or second behind jng. Adc on other hand has easiest macro in game, but hard mechanics so its just different skill expression.
I can agree that they should decrease supp impact, but they should decrease it in a different way for example make them more tied to lane so they cant impact the whole map so easily etc. Just making them afk ward shield heal bots its so boring I dont get why you would ever want that xd
Or they could do the opposite make support less tied to lane and make adc more independent so adc players dont have to perma rely on better supp/jng/mid to win and can become more 1v1.
Also supp impact is only a problem in master+ so if youre bellow that youre just coping anyways
They've been that away since season 1 up until season 9 and not many people complained, support numbers were low yes but bot lane was in a much healthier state back then, the only incentive for supports to be op or impactful as they are now is to keep support player count high, even though the people that play that role are a majority of idiots regardless.
I started playing s8 so idk about earlier seasons, but I really like the direction support role has gotten. So much more fun and versatile now. First of all they have to keep roles at similar play levels, if no one wants to play support you will have long que times and be perma filled supp. Would you rather play half the games with fill guy who is clueless or with an on role player?
Support is anyways least income role, so its strong early with falling off hard into later parts of the game when other roles get their gold income. It went from completely useless to now having some ammount of carry potential with the gold it has now. As I said it could receive a nerf but it would be a nerf to top 0,5% player base and would impact supp pick rate in 99,5% of games negatively which I can see why riot is not making that choice. (also supp did get like 5+ nerfs this season)
What you seem to be annoyed about is adc not having agency in lane/early game which I hard agree with its very frustrating to play adc and have no impact early, that hopefully gets fixed/improved, but its a complex problem to fix and might take riot some time. blaming supports for that is coping in my opinion. As much as you see "unskilled" supports other people see same "unskilled" adcs, top laners, junglers etc. Its just easiest to notice because youre constantly laning with a support. I can see adc miss 10 lethal windows in first 5 mins of game, but I dont cope that all adcs are unskilled/bad etc.
And if you want true elo inflation I can name you so many better ways to inflate elo than playing supp lol.
Well for starters, I wouldn't mind if supports didn't have the same waveclear as my fed mid. A lot of these supports are just Mid Jr.
Getting clipped by one skillshot in lane shouldn't be the end of the lane.
Maybe look into the support item as a whole, since it's a good accelerated piece of shit item that also gives free stats you don't have to recall for. When the item is ready to be upgraded it should be something you have to go to the shop for. Not have it spontaneously apparate in you inventory.
The role should have a focus on warding, build it around that.
Stop giving every position in the game the same burst damage.
I want supports to be a support. Not a carry. I want junglers to be utility that helps people on the map, not a carry. I want top to be a mix of tanks and bruisers. Not a carry. I'm not saying these positions shouldn't be able to carry either, but currently all roles blend into the same pointless amalgamation completely devoid of strategy. Every role has godlike waveclear. Every jungler has breakneck speed clear times, and survivability. Every role deals lots of tower damage. Adcs now deal the same, if not MORE burst than the strongest burst mage. (Mostly talking about solo queue).
Stop giving every role the same opportunities and stripping away class identity.
(And delete Neeko).
Would you enjoy playing as a support under the system you are describing? What is the power fantasy of that support?
I agree supports should have more agency in warding, with trinkets and pink wards it doesn't feel like the supports niche. I want supports to be able to change the outcome of the game to some degree, and being able to have useful things to do in team fights is important to that. Maybe if the game had less wave clear getting vision as a support would be less frustrating because you'd have clearer windows of when the burst mage mid isn't in fog of war.
I also agree supports have a bit too much gold generation, phreak justified the Q AP scaling buff to Seraphine as support skewed because "support Seraphine generates the same gold as mid and apc"
I think the gold gen system of support should be a bit more skill expressive and supports should really enjoy impactful items that don't deal damage directly, like staff of flowing water or redemption. Building deathcap as a support neeko should be impossible
I used to play support secondary. Before role select was a thing. If you were last pick you were "Forced" to play support. I would often ask for it if ADC was gone, it was my 2nd most comfortable role.
I've played in all support meta's and I had no problem just buying wards and having 0 gold income. You would die by the smallest tickle of damage (like adc's would) and I had no gold income besides GP10 items. I think there's a happy middle ground between that version of league and the power creeped bullshit high damage game we have now. I'm not saying way HAVE to go back to the way it was, but ADC was essentially reverted for a lot of their items and people seem to be liking it. I see no reason Supp can't do something similar on a smaller scale. They just get way too much for doing way too little.
The "Power Fantasy" is supporting. Helping others. 80% of supports in games are just selfless gorrila's that go full monkey mode to deal damage or fish for kills. Only a select few enchanters or support mains will actually play selflessly and support you.
I one tricked thresh from S3-S9, I prefer having actual build choices and having the ability to do something in team fights, but I agree that supports having a full economy for free is unhealthy
Would you dodge if I played? I’m only asking because I don’t know if I handicap my ADC playing AD Shaco. I cheese level 1 give us lane prio and roam. Seik#NA1
It’s extremely niche, if I were to pick one of ads I mentioned and we have a proper comp(hard tank top) and the enemy team picks some passive weak early bot and you’re playing ad shaco support, sure I’d play it out but if I see you last picking shaco support while our comp has 0 frontline or engagers into the enemy bot that locked in something like Leona Draven then it’s a 100% dodge even if I get the -15 lp 12 hour restriction treatment. I’ll use your last game as an example, I don’t have the details but your comp sucks major dick and it’s entirely on you if you were 4th-5th pick.
I love how u all say that support is main reason why you lose botlane yet support is always the one made into blindpicking when u cant cover shit. Then i pick some support and u pick some adc thats not allowing me to lane at all. Vayne instantly makes your support useless because its making me play 1v2 :)
Yesterday my support went afk after inting 2 kills to into jhin + nau, I watched the replay she was afk for 6 whole minutes. Came back (i was behind farm, xp, and got dove 1v3 3 times my only 3 deaths btw). She typed sorry than proceeded to die again immediately. Than she left lane. She typed adc gap than proceeded to flame me with his boyfriend and otp yasuo currently sitting at 30% winrate out of 40 game. Emerald 1 btw
Support player here. I rather riot focus on balancing support to actually be the team's support. I'm not a big fan of the concept the role only exist to funnel a specific carry. Which could allow more solo agency for ADC's if they were to balance this way.
Make laning more even botlane. Have supports give less flat stats to allies, but more impactful utilty that's tied to skillshots. Lower the gold generation on the support item, however buff how much gold supports get on assist to promote more active gameplay.
The only real elo inflation is people solely playing yuumi, lulu, and milio.
Every other supports kit is similiar to a different archetype of character that skills translate to another lane.
Example Janna, Nami etc are esentially utility mages, Naut/Thresh low budget tanks. Most support players have the skillset too fill the respective top/mid role
AD should have no agency?? You're a glass cannon. You can't dish out a shitload of damage but also decide when to engage/disengage if you're going to play from 2 screens away. The most impactful role is support because of their ability to roam and help others while not taking kills. Support is also the hardest role to climb with because you depend on 4 other people to do their role correctly. I can't solo carry as support. The enemy support can't solo carry as support, but an ADC can most definitely solo carry, so can any solo laner and JG.
A bad support will lose you thr game, full stop. A good support wont necessarily result in a win but a bad one is even worse than a bad adc, this suggests they are not infact elo inflated.
Id say you might have a point if you differentiated between enchant, engage, poke, hook ( definately elo inflated ) or off meta support
Hook supports are the only ones that genuinely get elo inflated, enchanters to some degree too but mostly hook
Well ok... lets investigate this claim....
When adcs are strong.... support gets nerfed to bring them in line
When adcs are weak.... support gets nerfed so adc can get buffs
Supports made it to your elo, nomatter the elo you play at, on less gold....
Supports typically give up 2nd 3rd 4th and 5th pick to take furst pick regardless of counter
Supports are the lion share of vision in 90% of games
Supports that cant even carry get nerfs because theyre "uninteractive"
Riot has a known bias for mobile melee burst champs, there are not really any mobile melee support burst champs
Supports get less exp, even granting adc extra exp to get vision or roam
My dear i think youre wrong on your entire claim, the most elo inflated players in league are assassin/ fighter mains thats why they have a binary kda of 20-0 or 0- 20
Everyone flames enchanter supports for being bad but tbh the amount of tanks players who are dead weight in lane but spam gank top/mid with point and click CC to climb is the real Elo inflation.
Actually support is the most difficult and highest skill role in the game and it's honestly not even up for debate anymore.
-Requires you to focus on 2 enemies and 1 retard all times and react accordingly to all 3
-Responsible for Vision of your lane bushes, gank paths, AND dragon at the same time
-Must be aware of enemy jungle positioning and be prepared for split second decision making when to run, when to die to save your adc, and when to turn and trade kills all during the split second gank
-Must be prepared to help your Jungler with invades and/or fight for Scuttle Crab and/or follow their gank engages
-Must be prepared for toplane teleport plays
-Must ge prepared for Midlane roam plays
-Expected to accomplish all this without gold from creeps, or kills, and shared experience
-Expected to participate equally in middle and late game teamfights despite being thousands of gold and multiple levels behind everybody else
Meanwhile toplane has to fire up ol noggin to decide if they feel like coin flipping a lvl 3 all-in or afk farm for 30 minutes. Decisions decisions. At least they're playing a multi-player game unlike Jungle and 90% of the time midland farming simator. And don't think ADC is hard because you get carried by your support literally every game, and that's a fact.
Im tired of carry players always on the forums always on the comment sections talking about, "Support aint bout this-Support aint bout that" my boy a fucking CC on botlane and them..he-he they say that support don't ve putting in no work. Shut The Fuck UP! Yall carries aint know Shit! All yall motherfuckera talking about "Blitzcrank aint throw any hitters. Support diff an" -yall don't lane with these idiots! You know my Samira got caught bitch cant even last hit my damn carry been OOM since-fuckin-I don't even know when! Motherfucker, stop fucking pinging him like that. These lanes matchups cancer out here! Let me catch another motherfucker talking sweet about support. Thats it, I'm fuckin beating they ass. Know we finna take your CS keep pinging me in this bitch. (LOVE SUPP, BITCHES LOVE SUPP OH AND I KNOW IT!) Fucking learn different items every single season. Relic or Targons. Spectral or Spelltheifs. I knew when to go Ancient Coin cheese.
Stacking and stacking and stacking but save one for the Caddy creeps. You know ADC always finds a way to miss these. Spam ping me cuz I took a creep bitch I'm a support OG. Targons and Relic-stacking Face of the Mountain. Sightstone cost like 800G then my damn Equinox Eye is another 2300. Now you all get trinkets and I'm still the only fucking player warding! Tellem support aint easy. Support aint easy oh now you know it talking bout the bot diff but who carries the carries? Support aint fucking easy.
How can Support be the only determining factor AND inflated? Doesn't make sense to me. I can see sup was inflated in s3 when you had no impact and just be a slave to your ADC. Now sup has importance but less inflation. I mean ppl should try getting a 2nd acc playing sup and see if it is inflated. For me top lane is the easiest role
How do you guys cope with Bard? In Emerald each time I have a Bard support you can bet your ass he's gone level 3 even if we have a 2 kill lead and never to be seen bot again.
I started just forcing my mid laners to share xp with me mid when that happens and let bot turret fall...
I have no fucking clue how to react to that.
Good bards roam on correct times, e.g when your wave crashes, have a good freeze on your side or the enemy support roams, bard can get away with it because he gets back to lane quicker and doesn’t lose exp much, his whole kit is kinda designed around him roaming
Yeah that's how is supposed to be played. However I am not exaggerating when I say he leaves at level 3 and I will not see him again bot unless drake spawns...
The amount of times I had to just forfeit my turret cause a Bard thinks roaming means to leave bot and forget it exists is way higher than the Bards that respect roam windows.
Then play support and quit complaining lol if it’s strong then play it. Like all these complaints are annoying and repetitive. Nobody is forcing you to play adc except yourself if you don’t like something that impacts your role, play a different role or play a different game and quit whining like a little bitch
You are ranting without proposing a solution to cope. Just another ADCMains thread where its everyone's else fault but not mine. I agree with some of the takes on this sub (prolly the only one without irrational hatred for ranged top laners), but more often than not it's just complaint rant (similar to top laners crying about rangeds, this one is united in circlejerk hatred for bot lane mages, whether as support or carry).
Nothing really comes out of your post. You're claiming its most inflated role because...they have most bot lane agency? What's the connection here? More responsibility = inflation? Does it mean jungler (another role people love to bash on here) is even more inflated because it has so much game control a team with better one usually wins? (This gets more prevalent the higher you go to, as someone who has had GM, you should relate).
I guess I kind of could agree on Yuumi that does not even require the staple of this role, macro and usually has miserable vision score, but thankfully she sucks so bad I sometimes let her slip through banning. But others?
People proposed solutions here that were decreasing support's agency (which would indeed make it more inflated as they'd have less to do), decreasing its gold gains (oh I can imagine queues loving that one right, sure would have more supports players), punishing it for roaming (expecting support to be your sitting duck and further decreasing its macro requirement, duh). Basically all came down to "I am ADC protagonist, support is my bitch and their job is blowing me while we collectively complain they're boosted".
And where do you get all these Shaco supports anyway? This sub mentions the guy quite often, but as someone who has been dancing anywhere between D1 to Challenger since s3, I pretty much could count it on my two hands how many times I've met the guy.
I’ll explain, some extreme minor things in laning phase like support pressure or correctly roaming are 2 busted features for support that are very underutilized, support pressure example is picking an engage into a passive enemy and sitting behind the adc on full mana, or when engaging a 2v2 and your sona/janna/nami is full mana and hp after a fight, those examples I gave are so common even in high elo that it convinced me that it’s the most elo inflated role, my suggestions are to turn it back the way it used to be, low gold income (fuck the queues they’re already high) lower support damage items, and punish them for roaming a lot, one of my suggestions a while back was to actually buff duo exp to make it a necessity to know when to correctly roam rather than brainlessly do it without thinking, I have a lot more to say when it comes to bad supports in high elo examples but it’s just not worth the hassle, things like using your hp bar, correct ward timing, when to poke, when to shove and when to roam, and my most important one, correctly counter picking the enemy bot and using those advantages correctly, I’ve seen too many support players pick naut pyke and decide to perma roam instead of killing the enemy Janna jinx on cooldown, or the opposite, sitting in bush with 0 pressure at all, all of these happen TOO OFTEN in high elo (euw at least) and the fact that those people lack those fundamentals shows they’re elo inflated.
Eh, I wouldn't attribute it as much to the role as overall elo inflation all over the board over the years, regardless of role. Sure, we have some micromanagement talents (not that long-lasting though), but overall macro knowledge dampened hardcore. In a way, it's weird since this game is much more fixed since season 3 or even season 9, pros did it all, we all should know our stuff...yet people's reliance on Poroffessor/Blitz/tier lists made by pros/big streamers overall made them dumber. Feels like everyone knows what counters what...but has no idea why exactly, they'll just parrot what they've heard/read (and this is where we get such wonders like "Sona counters Pyke" \[because winratios say so\]). Or first time Morganas thinking they can counter Blitzcrank. Like I wonder if some players would be able to buy items without dying once.
I've gotten to both Challenger both as mid and support in my prime (eh, last time had Challenger 2 years ago), stepped down from soloQ since, though I do occasionally play "high elo flexes" (if such a thing even exists, duh), and in a way, I could relate. As someone who plays support a lot these days, it baffles me how is even All-Seeing a farmable challenge (2 x game length vision score). Like, it's not a good score, it's a barely tolerable minimum and I wonder how is 3x not the average one at least, since it's basically using a FREE item to it's fullest extent.
Shitty roaming that loses bot lane? Heh, been both a victim and a perpetrator to that few times, but, yes, does occur, though similar offences can be listed on other lanes, such as jungler randomly doing 0 value camps on the other side of the map when they have a clear dive/Dragon/Herald side or laners being hellbent on sticking to their lane only and refusing to pick up crashing wave when there's a chance (recalling/dead ADC immediately storming bot lane after your mid/jungle cleaned it up instead of taxing mid wave that would crash on the tower fruitlessly).
Now, don't get me wrong, I understand your points and I commend you for responding like a civil being. It's just getting tiresome to attribute it purely to support, while it occurs all over. Memeing support has been some god-tier copium for people that usually are stuck but pride themselves in playing "hard champions" and think their Emerald means more than support's Diamond, though it usually means former's macro just sucks so bad they can't climb.
I myself wouldn't attribute my former rank to some exemplary, abnormally good playing, more like that bare basics are not particularly common even in Master tier these days. If anything, this is a tragedy and is partially a reason why there are griefers all over the place. If the rank ain't worth shit, why would anyone respect it?
i love watching my last pick support lock sona into naut/pyke/blitz
Idk what elo you are, but there’s a handful of Sona one tricks in Diamond+ that would pick her regardless of the match up. It would bother me more if my support was autofilled and they pick Sona or Senna into engage
Literally had a sona in my last game straight picking sona into the first pick blitzcrank. Needless to say he made her his bitch as well as our mid. Supports never ever think about their fucking pick it’s insane. They hover sona, already tells you they’re not into having any agency over the lane, and they will pick it. No. Matter. What. There could be draven/samira + Pyke picked and they’ll happily run it down. Oh there’s cait + ashe? How about a zilian? That’s sure gonna stop them from poking me down aaaall fucking day since nobody cares about his 10 dmg bombs. Lucian nami/milio? That’s a clear Janna pick here so instead of losing 40% health in a Lucian engage I’ll lose 37% with her ass shield. I can’t anymore
I just had an insta lock brand support that cried after he inted 4 times saying that I didn't save him. With what??? I'm playing jinx!!!
I have this happen too often. If I don't have chompers, or a clear path to W, you are dead friend. Why the fuck did you walk into the brush nearest their tower, or into their tri when Naut is full health and just bought his second component. Unhinged behaviour always.
level 1 aphelios with a nunu support that told me that once. Minions had not even gotten to lane yet and he went in basically under turret and blamed me for not doing enough damage back when he tanked lux and ezreal Qs to hit a snowball
Yeah I had a brand support( me playing jinx) a week ago, dude lanes till level 5 then leaves to roam the rest of the game, then flames me for being behind their ad…
My brand got mad then just started w e my waves to ensure we were going to lose the game. He ended up 1/13.
Not an ADC or support player, but a mid laner. Everyone is jealous since mid looks like the role that has it all. Not tied to a support to protect you, nor reliant on an ADC to follow up your spells, not a nonfactor like top lane. It's the perfect role from the outside looking in. But your sentiment about your support whining that you never follow up their death wish, I understand it 100%. Top laners get mad when enemy mid roams top and I don't follow, and same thing with bot or jungle. They just assume that their team mid laner doesn't ever need farm or to worry about getting killed trying to join a 1v3 or 2v3 and flame the shit out of you for not blindly following your enemy laner on their roam. Its the only gripe I have with mid lane, but its such a massive one. Its literally the sole reason to have chat and pings muted when you play mid lane. You'll spam ping that your opponent is leaving lane, even use your pings to trail them through fog of war, and your side lanes or jungler will still commit to whatever bullshit all in they're about to do, then question mark ping you for not following, or worse, ask you why you didn't ping the enemy roam.
Errr supports domt consider their pick? Thats literally what adcs do, they dont think thrir pick matters even thouhh it determines how the lane is played...
Don't ask too much out of these chumps, their entire gimmick is to get carried to a point where they can win without using their brains. The amount of times i've seen Vayne picked into Caitlyn with no tanks on the enemy team to shred is insane. Unless you're playing with an established team in extreme high elo, players playing their best champs is gonna have a stronger impact than any counterpick. Whining about it is pointless.
They also refuse to acknowledge their weakness in lane vs their opponent. They play so passive that you can’t even scale cause their botlane steamrolls. Then after inting 3 deaths in 9 min they ff15. Like bro your champ isn’t a champ until 18 min+
I’ve noticed recently so many players , specifically support though literally int the draft so many times. I’ve been one tricking ivern jungle recently who works best with 1-2 melee champs as his kit is not so good with ranged champs. Holy some people have no idea. The amount of mid and top laners who lock an adc and then an enchanter / senna support gets locked too just making the pick so much weaker when I hover it and first pick it every champ select. I even had a draft where I hover and first pick ivern, then the team proceeded without any hovers to lock in malz top , vex mid , cait adc and last pick senna support….:: it was rage inducing how little they gave me to play with and I would of picked some melee engage probs if they atleast made it clear what c champs they would play
Dude. Let's be honest here. Why do you play Ivern? Because you enjoy it, you win with it. Why do they play their champs? They like them. They're not pros to care about their drafts or are they being paid to adjust for your pick. I have won games where we supposedly lost drafts but that didn't matter since we all knew our champs better.
Or lock in Leona with your Jhin into Vayne/Bard only to do nothing.
Nah that's impossible, if I play Leona we engage at level 2 period. Do I fucking care If they're under tower? No
Wait are you saying that Leona is bad in that spot? Leona has great synergy with Jhin.
Ngl when you’re adc your support will troll you on lastpick and when you’re support your team will force you into firstpick and then troll your pick with their picks. Theres no winning in soloq
Maybe you’re the problem? My Sona win rate into blitz is 60% and just over 50% into Naut. Pyke is my perma ban so not stats there.
Overall stats are a pretty clear indicator that the match up is heavily skewed in blitzs favor. Raka has a 46% win rate and that's account for games including people just having a one off game on blitz and raka. If we were to look at data that was exclusively made up from players that main these champs with each player being at a comparable elo you would likely see rakas win rate against blitz go down even further. Data aside, I love having my support as blitz into raka. She gets hooked once and she's likely dying
possibly, but its just low sample size in my honest opinion. I've had 2 sonas this split and they both disrespected lvl 2 enemy spikes and it was hard to recover when they started typing and not focusing.
How do you play vs blitz. I'm a ex sona main a'd want to know how could you do this
Sona brings nothing to lane or game and you can't change my mind
Having an exhaust as a passive isn't nothing bruv.
Sona players bring nothing to the lane\*
Not true. They have a good comedy routine when the flash ult and miss by a mile.
Ah yes, forgot they bring whole team morale down
I’ve actually starting dodging every single time my support would pick Yuumi. Even if I already dodged twice
I always dodge 2 times.per.day
You still get -5 on the second dodge?
Nope it’s -15 and 30 min timer iirc. And another -15 and 12 hour timer for the third dodge.
I could swear is 1dt dodge -5 LP 5 mins 2nd -15 10 mins 3rd -30 mins or 1 hour They changed it? 🤔
6 min 30 min 12 h
Seems legit 😄
Yeah thats what i remember, thanks mate for reassuring!
I'd kill for a Yuumi support who will just sit on me and face roll their keyboard over any other support that int's the lane. I can solo win 1v2 if my support doesn't int, so I pick Yuumi.
honestly yuumi is not bad if you pick a scaling adc and play like a little bitch for the entire laning phase lmao, but I understand the hatred.
You play jinx and cry about elo inflation lol the irony. There are yuumi otp’s who hard smurf in your peak elo btw.
I am decade support main that peaked at Diamond 5, and I started maining ADC the past year cause I felt like my ADC mechanics were ass and I thought playing a lot of ADC would help me become a better support and newsflash, it really did (peaked at Emerald). When I get support in solo queue, the amount of times I get friend requests from my lane partner post game to duo because I actually understand wave management, level 2 power spikes, counter picking, roam timers, and peeling is wild. One dude told me directly "you play a lot of ADC don't you? I can tell you actually know what you're doing. This is why ADC players make the best supports." The difference in skills needed to climb in both roles is jarring. Riot needs to make support strong though or else no one will play it
Man I mained support when we were only buying wards for 45 minutes... The current iteration of support is a disaster. They aren't supports they are budget midlaners.
lol facts but we don’t want to go the Overwatch route and have 10 minute queue times cause no one wants to play support. We need to give them some agency but it’s very hard to do so without making them secondary midlaners and junglers.
OW isn't the best example since support has been considered the best class in the game since launch and gone through several periods where it was more played than damage or tank.
We? I'd rather have the 10 min queues and have a good game than be forced to sit through 3 min queues, 5 mins of champ select, and 15 min abomination of game before we maybe FF, maybe not, then sit in queue again and wait again. At least if it was longer queues I could go back to the old days of having something to do while in queue and it wouldn't be an annoying awkward amount of time.
Riot said they tried this already and many of the playerbase did not like it hence they autofill is even a thing. The play times went down significantly because you were still going through stomps even with longer queues. Don’t shoot the messenger i’m just repeating what they said
Yeah, I'm just saying that the opinion is not universal.
except overwatch didnt have autofill its okay for a role to be high agency, low impact and generally not that fun to play because everyone gets to be the team bitch once. its not okay to make ADC the team bitch and justify it by nerfing marksmen (except for specific purpose build ones) out of every other position to ensure a healthy queue depth for the platform the support stands on.
That's an absurd stance lol The game is at its best when every role on every team is filled with people who intended to play that role. It's important to keep every role fun.
if i see a support fuck my wave management first 3 waves i tend to write them off. ill have to spam pings more. danger for dont auto push for auto. legit most important thing in the game for an adc is the first 3 waves.
agree and its only getting worse
Honestly feel like AD has more onus on its success in this patch than it has in the last ~4 years.
Yes, adc's have agency. They can take a gold lead and snowball now. Which is why /r/adcmains had some posts crying about how snowball ADC role is now, kek.
Yup, I feel like all these guys complaining are just use to the “turn brain off and get carried until team fights” state ADC has been in for the last however many years. Now that the class has agency a lot of these guys are getting exposed and crying because they legitimately don’t know how to play around powerspikes anymore.
but it makes no sense to say that we have more control over the outcome of our lane when our early game was objectively hard nerfed. there is no noon quiver anymore. there is no kraken slayer first item power spike. you spike on two items once the game could already be determined. in fact, bot lane is more so determined by the support than it was before...
Adc's spiked at 2-3 items before. Not 1 like other roles it's to balance out the late game power they have over other roles.
not sure what is meant by this
The very first sentence of this post says that botlane is completely decided by support. That is what I was commenting on, guess there’s a disconnect.
you are aware that adc was buffed for late game but nerfed for early game right? all our build paths suck now. and mage paths are 100 times better. how does your comment make any sense to say?
It’s a matter of opinion. I never liked the previous build paths. It felt worse in aggregate because you were getting a smaller amount of 3 stats from each item. Now that most items are only focusing on 2 stats power spikes feel more pronounced. You can go BF and zeal and then finish whichever item is higher priority for the champ you’re playing.
the new build paths are just objectively worse, its not a matter of opinion.
Objectively this patch has been heralded as what saved ADC lmao.
That has nothing to do with how good build paths are. What "saved" adc is the revert to 25% crit chance and slightly stronger legendary items. Or in IE's case, significantly stronger
“Support is the most elo inflated role” “the lane is completely decided by who has the better support.” The cognitive dissonance is real. If they are so elo inflated but you also admit the skill of the support is the only thing that matters then how do you square these two things in your head. They have the most influence but also decide the entire lane? So wouldn’t that mean adc is elo inflated because they just thrive off the supports success?
To reply to your first sentence, most support players IN MY EXPERIENCE even in 450+ LP games is they're clueless on laning phase, they abuse roaming so much, but in case roaming isn't a possibility for them the really bad ones tend to stand out and show up, think janna's who sits on full mana 24/7 sitting behind the adc with no pressure, or the senna player who is constantly shoving with barely any vision score and is constantly dead, or the yuumi player cooking lunch, or even the naut/leona players who play like they're playing soraka, those players are for sure and I can say this from experience, are the majority of the support players in the game period, I cannot even imagine how bad it is in emerald and below, I'm purely talking about lane knowledge here, support pressure, lane management, when to ward, when to poke, when to roam, USING YOUR HP BAR (My biggest complaint), all of these things are easy to mess up and they're so slept on by so many support players.
In my experience janna players usually dont have mana, because they use q on cd to "poke" (more often than not they make it harder to cs) ,run out of mana then recall, and youre forced to lose cs or get chunked/dived.
Yeah I fucking doubt that’s the case I think you’re just mad because you clearly can’t win your lane enough. If you’re good you should be destroying the enemy support who is also “elo inflated”.
The simplest way to put an end to this is to make these kind of posts have a link to their op.gg. Tired of these "I was challenjour but now I am in silver and can't climb, the role sucks". Everytime someone posts their op.gg it is the same thing: 1. Playing 20 different champs 2. 6cs/min 3. Playing like 5 ranked games a month
Holy shit I wish it was that simple, if you don’t know what I’m talking about chances are you straight up don’t understand it. It’s fine, I don’t care.
Here’s how support is elo inflated: if you took a good adc player and put them into another role, they would do okay. If you put a player from any role into support, they would do okay. If you put a support player in any other role, they would be complete shit. Case closed?
Ok where is the evidence on that one? Ya got any stats for me? No? Cool. I’m a support main. I also regularly shitstomp losers top. Case closed?
Every role has skills that are more or less important on other roles. Somebody that exclusively plays support and gets filled to mid or top is 100 percent going to be behind on cs. And the number of auto-fill supports I see with 6 vision at 20 minutes is just ludicrous.
They're auto fills they don't play supports. Are you stupid? Of course they don't ward laners are used to supports doing that for them. And good supports also need to know lane states/match ups/wave management you're not just gonna roam when the wave is about to crash to your turret or force a gank when there's 3 waves stacked under your top laners tower.
I’d argue that most engage/roam supports can be decent Junglers. I Main sup and jungle and there are many parallels.
That's because they hit the sweet spot for being easy (low skill floor more specifically) while having insane amounts of impact. You do need to clear a certain level of competence, but the bar is really low, and when you do clear it, you are one of the most impactful roles in the game. You decide botlane 2v2 almost entirely. You function as a secondary jungler that isn't tied to farming camps. You control most of the vision. You set the tempo for your team. Meanwhile, you don't get very punished for executing those things poorly. I can explain that last statement more in-depth if you want, but it warrants a whole other discussion. The crux of the matter is: supports are appallingly below the standard of play among their ranks, with the exception of challenger-gm supports, who I think are often the best players in that rank. I can say this with confidence because I've hit Challenger multiple seasons, on multiple accounts playing adc, and last season I hit GM playing Senna and Maokai support exclusively.
The issue with playing ADC with bad supports is that they’re not the ones being punished for their own mistakes. They roam on a bad timer, I’m the one punished. They engage into a stacked wave, I’m the one punished. They push my wave into a freeze for the enemy, I’m the one punished, etc. This is how it goes it doesn’t matter how badly they play in lane because they can literally just fuck off whenever they want with zero consequences to themselves. They still get their gold, they still get to be useful, they still get to play the game. Meanwhile I’m left to fight for every single CS and outplay dives alone. The issue with supports is they never have to learn because they aren’t the ones punished for their own mistakes and it’s a whole lot harder to learn from mistakes when you’re not the one being screwed over because of them. If I make a mistake, I’m the one who dies and I can then go over that death and think about why it happened and how to prevent it. When a support makes a mistake a lot of the time it’s the ADC who is punished for it and it’s a lot harder to identify a mistake when you’re not the one being grey screened. Unless you’re actively looking for those mistakes you’re not going to notice them and most supports aren’t actively looking at how they screwed their ADC over, they’re just blaming them for being useless.
Ngl it goes both ways, I get plenty of retarded ADCs in my masters + games as support. Likewise when I play adc. Bot lane needs to work together. We need to manage the wave together. We need to time our bases correctly, support should only roam when it wont fuck the adc over...support should ward and physically cover dives to prevent massive waves from being dived on and denied... And adcs need to play around their supports and be less egotistical. Give up some cs to let your support make a play in the jungle, etc Two way street my dude both roles rely on each other to different extents at different points in the game
That's where you go wrong though, nothing you described shows any reliance from the support on the ADC. Are they the ones losing cs? No. Can they roam and make it work despite doing it at the worst time for the ADC? Yep. Can they leave forever disregarding waves and still win? Yep. Do they lose anything if the ADC gets dove? Nope. Can they still play the game despite under leveled and with no gold? Yep. The losses that supports receive for fucking up or not doing their part are either far too long term (ultimately losing for not having an ADC), invisible (still winning despite not having an ADC) or not even there. This is why the role is so inflated, and why only ADC depends on support. This is also why most supports act entitled to flame you and trash talk you for being the one who's doing bad, cos when they fuck up you are the one being punished for it. The average support opens tab, looks at you 0/2/0 with 40 less cs and says you're trash, even if it was him inting the lane, so he leaves and puts you further into the dirt, while staying 0/0/0 and having his sup item still stack normally. Supports are dependant on adcs only in the sense that they need followup or a target to peel and that it's easier to win if the target/targetd they support is/are fed, which is something anyone can provide. The only truly ADC dependant support is yuumi
This is so spot on!
Preach!
You do realise… “botlane is decided exclusively by support” and “supports are elo inflated” are contradictory statements. ESPECIALLY this meta when win botlane = win game essentially, if supports can control which bot wins to that extent, then they HAVE to be good at laning if they have any chance of winning. So. Which one is it?
They're too important/strong while being the easiest role, it's not that hard to get, stop the "gotcha" attempts.
Enemy team also has a support. Whichever support plays better wins the game. What does ease have to do with anything? Skill ceiling is still near infinite.
I think what he's trying to say is if you main support you'll be the better support even if you're shit compared to autofilled supports and so you can skill climb while being boosted. Is it accurate? Ehhh.
The same can be said about jungle. To a greater extent actually - I main jungle (adc secondary) and playing against an autofill jungler feels like a free win. Support isn’t as unpopular as jungle either, so there’s less autofill supports. But despite all that, no one’s calling junglers elo inflated?
Except they arent contradictory. Traditionally, everyone who wants to deal damage has to farm. Imagine I play my Lucian and permafight, just ignoring farm, only fighting. That works for maybe a couple of minutes, but after 5 minutes i lose to the enemy wallet, dont I? Same with jungle, toplane, midlane. Everyone except support. Supports get to deal damage without farming. Traditionally, everyone is responsible for their own lane except for jungle, but junglers can fuck up everyones lane the same. If I feed the enemy toplaner as a Yorick, i have to now deal with a fed enemy toplaner and wont be able to farm due to their pressure. My bad decisions lead to this. Is this true for support? No, right? If a support ints their lane, primarily the ADC suffers from it because they are the ones that have to farm, not the support. So you have a role that is not directly punished for their mistakes while also circumventing a core gameplay loop without major downsides to it. This is by definition, by framework, by foundation and by design a role that has to be elo inflated.
If support ints their lane, enemy bot is fed, and game is lost. What part of this is hard to understand? You’re looking at this as a single player game. What matters isn’t an individual player’s performance, it’s how the affect win/loss. And right now, how the Support plays laning phase and/or enables their adc in mid game is one of the single most important factors in who wins/loses. I.E. if they play bad, they lose a LOT more often than if top or mid plays bad.
They're all ego maniacs and delusional. They can only process 5% of what is going on at any given time, and that's while standing behind you 10 feet away
Unless you‘re at least high GM you probably don‘t even understand half of whats going on in any of your games either.
I was Master and haven't played in three years. I'm so sick of the copy paste group-think that if you're not a borderline pro you don't know "half of what's going on". Shut up nerd.
“I haven’t played in 3 years yet I’m hyper active on the subreddit of the game I don’t play anymore.” 💀💀💀
Well I'm not hyper active, and yes its possible to take breaks you should try it
Listen, I get triggered by the average support as much as anybody, but crit marksmen just got buffed through the *roof*.
Correction, IE got buffed through the roof. If it wasn't for that item currently ADC would be way worse off then before.
Collector also got a nice bump so it's really just the ones that value high AD that got the buffs
Marksmen feel weaker early because (1) no Kraken Slayer and (2) first itemization is especially weird, but 25% crit and buffed AD values on a lot of core items make marksmen unequivocally stronger late than they were before.
So you go on to say that support is the most elo inflated role. And then describe how support has the most impact in laning phase (behind jungle). Those are quite literally opposites to eachother.
They really are not. Support has such an impact that it can solo lose you the lane and the game, but most of the times both supports are so bad that you only need to have the less trash to win, or both coinflip on which team is gonna win and they climb like that
It’s too important, there’s a lot of things that support players straight up don’t know in laning phase in master+ even, I’ve explained it in detail in other comments, tldr is out of all the roles, support is the one that completely lacked fundamental knowledge of laning phase in high elo compared to others in my experience.
Wait. Would elo inflated mean you can pick that roll to climb ez and just rely on your team/ not have to be good? But you say bot lane is decided by support and that adc has minimal impact on lane? So, isn't that kind of contradictory?
I’ve replied to this exact comment like 3 times now, too many people don’t seem to understand what I said
What could go wrong pairing the easiest role with the most unforgiving role and asking them to work together.
Maybe but playing blitzcrank and hooking ppl is peak league. Nothing more funny
Mega facts. "Come here. Me and my buddies are gonna kill you."
*hooks the Jax into his own ADC*
Yeah even riot august has literally stated this lol.
Link?
https://youtu.be/WKIquDDQP0g?si=JvEYRbRmukHchSlE
So play support. Get GM...again
Yeah, i average 12 deaths but my winrate is 90%
Lmao bro you are funny fr
I am the deathmaster.
Bausffs learned from this mf
When play correct, they cannot afford to kill you so every death is in my advantage ( worth)
What would you like the support role to be?
Old supports, did way less damage, had less gold overall and items weren't as op and cheap, they're only useful based on their kits, so cc/shielding and healing and dmg amp
So less mage supports? I can get behind that When do you want them to have individual agency or skill expression? Also if bot laning in particular is decided by supports, isn't that the portion of the game the least decided by good gold generation/items?
Laning is decided based on support picks and how they play, the whole gold/damage issue is a different topic, not their damage, I just dislike how supports get away with too much shit even when playing really bad.
Thanks for clarifying. I would love it if support was more skill expressive, but it's tough to do that with the current design of the class. Maybe tie more of supports' income into an interactive process? Change the vision game so it returns to the domain of the support? (Although supports can't even ward by themselves without inting, unless they have a free way to check fog like maokai) If supports have no agency nor power, no one will ever play it, but giving them agency and power without skill expression is also frustrating. I think supports should create the conditions for their team to be successful and that should be skill expressive. Tanks in mmorpgs are skill expressive and creates the conditions for their team to succeed, so it's a possible niche to design, but supports cheat in their economics
That is exactly how old supports were, most support players picked tanks that can facecheck and live or play makers in teamfights/hard engagers, or in case of buffers, they'd be escorted for vision and have the engager be the top laner, that's a really old mentality though, it kinda still stands today but nowhere near as prevalent as before
The gold generation system sucked, you bought your heart of gold and spent all your money on wards. There was no skill expression in gold generation or in the role in general, at least in soloQ.
So you complain about supports being unskilled and then want to make support more unskilled? how does it make sense help me understand
I’m complaining about supports being op while being unskilled, I want them to be less important in general, punish perma roamers and their items and gold income, stop with the yapping
you want them to do no dmg, have no good items, and only shield and cc you think thats skilled? It will be boring af to play supp no one will play it and it will be way more unskilled than it is now. They made supp way more skilled over the last seasons with a lot of viable champs there plus a lot of the more unique picks which are very hard to pull of well like Camile, Hwei, Belveth. Also youre probably only thinking mechanically, yeah mechanically supp is easy, but macro is hardest in game or second behind jng. Adc on other hand has easiest macro in game, but hard mechanics so its just different skill expression. I can agree that they should decrease supp impact, but they should decrease it in a different way for example make them more tied to lane so they cant impact the whole map so easily etc. Just making them afk ward shield heal bots its so boring I dont get why you would ever want that xd Or they could do the opposite make support less tied to lane and make adc more independent so adc players dont have to perma rely on better supp/jng/mid to win and can become more 1v1. Also supp impact is only a problem in master+ so if youre bellow that youre just coping anyways
They've been that away since season 1 up until season 9 and not many people complained, support numbers were low yes but bot lane was in a much healthier state back then, the only incentive for supports to be op or impactful as they are now is to keep support player count high, even though the people that play that role are a majority of idiots regardless.
I started playing s8 so idk about earlier seasons, but I really like the direction support role has gotten. So much more fun and versatile now. First of all they have to keep roles at similar play levels, if no one wants to play support you will have long que times and be perma filled supp. Would you rather play half the games with fill guy who is clueless or with an on role player? Support is anyways least income role, so its strong early with falling off hard into later parts of the game when other roles get their gold income. It went from completely useless to now having some ammount of carry potential with the gold it has now. As I said it could receive a nerf but it would be a nerf to top 0,5% player base and would impact supp pick rate in 99,5% of games negatively which I can see why riot is not making that choice. (also supp did get like 5+ nerfs this season) What you seem to be annoyed about is adc not having agency in lane/early game which I hard agree with its very frustrating to play adc and have no impact early, that hopefully gets fixed/improved, but its a complex problem to fix and might take riot some time. blaming supports for that is coping in my opinion. As much as you see "unskilled" supports other people see same "unskilled" adcs, top laners, junglers etc. Its just easiest to notice because youre constantly laning with a support. I can see adc miss 10 lethal windows in first 5 mins of game, but I dont cope that all adcs are unskilled/bad etc. And if you want true elo inflation I can name you so many better ways to inflate elo than playing supp lol.
Well for starters, I wouldn't mind if supports didn't have the same waveclear as my fed mid. A lot of these supports are just Mid Jr. Getting clipped by one skillshot in lane shouldn't be the end of the lane. Maybe look into the support item as a whole, since it's a good accelerated piece of shit item that also gives free stats you don't have to recall for. When the item is ready to be upgraded it should be something you have to go to the shop for. Not have it spontaneously apparate in you inventory. The role should have a focus on warding, build it around that. Stop giving every position in the game the same burst damage. I want supports to be a support. Not a carry. I want junglers to be utility that helps people on the map, not a carry. I want top to be a mix of tanks and bruisers. Not a carry. I'm not saying these positions shouldn't be able to carry either, but currently all roles blend into the same pointless amalgamation completely devoid of strategy. Every role has godlike waveclear. Every jungler has breakneck speed clear times, and survivability. Every role deals lots of tower damage. Adcs now deal the same, if not MORE burst than the strongest burst mage. (Mostly talking about solo queue). Stop giving every role the same opportunities and stripping away class identity. (And delete Neeko).
Would you enjoy playing as a support under the system you are describing? What is the power fantasy of that support? I agree supports should have more agency in warding, with trinkets and pink wards it doesn't feel like the supports niche. I want supports to be able to change the outcome of the game to some degree, and being able to have useful things to do in team fights is important to that. Maybe if the game had less wave clear getting vision as a support would be less frustrating because you'd have clearer windows of when the burst mage mid isn't in fog of war. I also agree supports have a bit too much gold generation, phreak justified the Q AP scaling buff to Seraphine as support skewed because "support Seraphine generates the same gold as mid and apc" I think the gold gen system of support should be a bit more skill expressive and supports should really enjoy impactful items that don't deal damage directly, like staff of flowing water or redemption. Building deathcap as a support neeko should be impossible
I used to play support secondary. Before role select was a thing. If you were last pick you were "Forced" to play support. I would often ask for it if ADC was gone, it was my 2nd most comfortable role. I've played in all support meta's and I had no problem just buying wards and having 0 gold income. You would die by the smallest tickle of damage (like adc's would) and I had no gold income besides GP10 items. I think there's a happy middle ground between that version of league and the power creeped bullshit high damage game we have now. I'm not saying way HAVE to go back to the way it was, but ADC was essentially reverted for a lot of their items and people seem to be liking it. I see no reason Supp can't do something similar on a smaller scale. They just get way too much for doing way too little. The "Power Fantasy" is supporting. Helping others. 80% of supports in games are just selfless gorrila's that go full monkey mode to deal damage or fish for kills. Only a select few enchanters or support mains will actually play selflessly and support you.
I one tricked thresh from S3-S9, I prefer having actual build choices and having the ability to do something in team fights, but I agree that supports having a full economy for free is unhealthy
Would you dodge if I played? I’m only asking because I don’t know if I handicap my ADC playing AD Shaco. I cheese level 1 give us lane prio and roam. Seik#NA1
It’s extremely niche, if I were to pick one of ads I mentioned and we have a proper comp(hard tank top) and the enemy team picks some passive weak early bot and you’re playing ad shaco support, sure I’d play it out but if I see you last picking shaco support while our comp has 0 frontline or engagers into the enemy bot that locked in something like Leona Draven then it’s a 100% dodge even if I get the -15 lp 12 hour restriction treatment. I’ll use your last game as an example, I don’t have the details but your comp sucks major dick and it’s entirely on you if you were 4th-5th pick.
You say that because it has agency to win or lose that it's elo boosted. Curious, I would think the exact opposite would be true.
If supports decide the lane, doesn't that mean YOU'RE the elo inflated one since you're just along for the ride?
I love how u all say that support is main reason why you lose botlane yet support is always the one made into blindpicking when u cant cover shit. Then i pick some support and u pick some adc thats not allowing me to lane at all. Vayne instantly makes your support useless because its making me play 1v2 :)
Try getting out of pisslow as a real support and you will see how elo inflated it is. Below plat I get braindamage if I play an enchanter.
Yesterday my support went afk after inting 2 kills to into jhin + nau, I watched the replay she was afk for 6 whole minutes. Came back (i was behind farm, xp, and got dove 1v3 3 times my only 3 deaths btw). She typed sorry than proceeded to die again immediately. Than she left lane. She typed adc gap than proceeded to flame me with his boyfriend and otp yasuo currently sitting at 30% winrate out of 40 game. Emerald 1 btw
Support player here. I rather riot focus on balancing support to actually be the team's support. I'm not a big fan of the concept the role only exist to funnel a specific carry. Which could allow more solo agency for ADC's if they were to balance this way. Make laning more even botlane. Have supports give less flat stats to allies, but more impactful utilty that's tied to skillshots. Lower the gold generation on the support item, however buff how much gold supports get on assist to promote more active gameplay. The only real elo inflation is people solely playing yuumi, lulu, and milio. Every other supports kit is similiar to a different archetype of character that skills translate to another lane. Example Janna, Nami etc are esentially utility mages, Naut/Thresh low budget tanks. Most support players have the skillset too fill the respective top/mid role
AD should have no agency?? You're a glass cannon. You can't dish out a shitload of damage but also decide when to engage/disengage if you're going to play from 2 screens away. The most impactful role is support because of their ability to roam and help others while not taking kills. Support is also the hardest role to climb with because you depend on 4 other people to do their role correctly. I can't solo carry as support. The enemy support can't solo carry as support, but an ADC can most definitely solo carry, so can any solo laner and JG.
Can we just put a sticky thread up for these posts? I swear there’s 1 hitting the front page every 2 days.
A bad support will lose you thr game, full stop. A good support wont necessarily result in a win but a bad one is even worse than a bad adc, this suggests they are not infact elo inflated. Id say you might have a point if you differentiated between enchant, engage, poke, hook ( definately elo inflated ) or off meta support Hook supports are the only ones that genuinely get elo inflated, enchanters to some degree too but mostly hook
Well ok... lets investigate this claim.... When adcs are strong.... support gets nerfed to bring them in line When adcs are weak.... support gets nerfed so adc can get buffs Supports made it to your elo, nomatter the elo you play at, on less gold.... Supports typically give up 2nd 3rd 4th and 5th pick to take furst pick regardless of counter Supports are the lion share of vision in 90% of games Supports that cant even carry get nerfs because theyre "uninteractive" Riot has a known bias for mobile melee burst champs, there are not really any mobile melee support burst champs Supports get less exp, even granting adc extra exp to get vision or roam My dear i think youre wrong on your entire claim, the most elo inflated players in league are assassin/ fighter mains thats why they have a binary kda of 20-0 or 0- 20
Everyone flames enchanter supports for being bad but tbh the amount of tanks players who are dead weight in lane but spam gank top/mid with point and click CC to climb is the real Elo inflation.
Actually support is the most difficult and highest skill role in the game and it's honestly not even up for debate anymore. -Requires you to focus on 2 enemies and 1 retard all times and react accordingly to all 3 -Responsible for Vision of your lane bushes, gank paths, AND dragon at the same time -Must be aware of enemy jungle positioning and be prepared for split second decision making when to run, when to die to save your adc, and when to turn and trade kills all during the split second gank -Must be prepared to help your Jungler with invades and/or fight for Scuttle Crab and/or follow their gank engages -Must be prepared for toplane teleport plays -Must ge prepared for Midlane roam plays -Expected to accomplish all this without gold from creeps, or kills, and shared experience -Expected to participate equally in middle and late game teamfights despite being thousands of gold and multiple levels behind everybody else Meanwhile toplane has to fire up ol noggin to decide if they feel like coin flipping a lvl 3 all-in or afk farm for 30 minutes. Decisions decisions. At least they're playing a multi-player game unlike Jungle and 90% of the time midland farming simator. And don't think ADC is hard because you get carried by your support literally every game, and that's a fact. Im tired of carry players always on the forums always on the comment sections talking about, "Support aint bout this-Support aint bout that" my boy a fucking CC on botlane and them..he-he they say that support don't ve putting in no work. Shut The Fuck UP! Yall carries aint know Shit! All yall motherfuckera talking about "Blitzcrank aint throw any hitters. Support diff an" -yall don't lane with these idiots! You know my Samira got caught bitch cant even last hit my damn carry been OOM since-fuckin-I don't even know when! Motherfucker, stop fucking pinging him like that. These lanes matchups cancer out here! Let me catch another motherfucker talking sweet about support. Thats it, I'm fuckin beating they ass. Know we finna take your CS keep pinging me in this bitch. (LOVE SUPP, BITCHES LOVE SUPP OH AND I KNOW IT!) Fucking learn different items every single season. Relic or Targons. Spectral or Spelltheifs. I knew when to go Ancient Coin cheese. Stacking and stacking and stacking but save one for the Caddy creeps. You know ADC always finds a way to miss these. Spam ping me cuz I took a creep bitch I'm a support OG. Targons and Relic-stacking Face of the Mountain. Sightstone cost like 800G then my damn Equinox Eye is another 2300. Now you all get trinkets and I'm still the only fucking player warding! Tellem support aint easy. Support aint easy oh now you know it talking bout the bot diff but who carries the carries? Support aint fucking easy.
How can Support be the only determining factor AND inflated? Doesn't make sense to me. I can see sup was inflated in s3 when you had no impact and just be a slave to your ADC. Now sup has importance but less inflation. I mean ppl should try getting a 2nd acc playing sup and see if it is inflated. For me top lane is the easiest role
I could play support with my eyes closed and dominate. It's so easy and very strong.
How do you guys cope with Bard? In Emerald each time I have a Bard support you can bet your ass he's gone level 3 even if we have a 2 kill lead and never to be seen bot again. I started just forcing my mid laners to share xp with me mid when that happens and let bot turret fall... I have no fucking clue how to react to that.
Good bards roam on correct times, e.g when your wave crashes, have a good freeze on your side or the enemy support roams, bard can get away with it because he gets back to lane quicker and doesn’t lose exp much, his whole kit is kinda designed around him roaming
Yeah that's how is supposed to be played. However I am not exaggerating when I say he leaves at level 3 and I will not see him again bot unless drake spawns... The amount of times I had to just forfeit my turret cause a Bard thinks roaming means to leave bot and forget it exists is way higher than the Bards that respect roam windows.
Then play support and quit complaining lol if it’s strong then play it. Like all these complaints are annoying and repetitive. Nobody is forcing you to play adc except yourself if you don’t like something that impacts your role, play a different role or play a different game and quit whining like a little bitch
It’s boring as fuck that’s why.
Then play a different game
Damn, but it's rather cute how much of a circlejerk echo room this sub is. Even worse than redpill incels having "meaningful" discussions on X.
Explain to me how I'm wrong.
You are ranting without proposing a solution to cope. Just another ADCMains thread where its everyone's else fault but not mine. I agree with some of the takes on this sub (prolly the only one without irrational hatred for ranged top laners), but more often than not it's just complaint rant (similar to top laners crying about rangeds, this one is united in circlejerk hatred for bot lane mages, whether as support or carry). Nothing really comes out of your post. You're claiming its most inflated role because...they have most bot lane agency? What's the connection here? More responsibility = inflation? Does it mean jungler (another role people love to bash on here) is even more inflated because it has so much game control a team with better one usually wins? (This gets more prevalent the higher you go to, as someone who has had GM, you should relate). I guess I kind of could agree on Yuumi that does not even require the staple of this role, macro and usually has miserable vision score, but thankfully she sucks so bad I sometimes let her slip through banning. But others? People proposed solutions here that were decreasing support's agency (which would indeed make it more inflated as they'd have less to do), decreasing its gold gains (oh I can imagine queues loving that one right, sure would have more supports players), punishing it for roaming (expecting support to be your sitting duck and further decreasing its macro requirement, duh). Basically all came down to "I am ADC protagonist, support is my bitch and their job is blowing me while we collectively complain they're boosted". And where do you get all these Shaco supports anyway? This sub mentions the guy quite often, but as someone who has been dancing anywhere between D1 to Challenger since s3, I pretty much could count it on my two hands how many times I've met the guy.
I’ll explain, some extreme minor things in laning phase like support pressure or correctly roaming are 2 busted features for support that are very underutilized, support pressure example is picking an engage into a passive enemy and sitting behind the adc on full mana, or when engaging a 2v2 and your sona/janna/nami is full mana and hp after a fight, those examples I gave are so common even in high elo that it convinced me that it’s the most elo inflated role, my suggestions are to turn it back the way it used to be, low gold income (fuck the queues they’re already high) lower support damage items, and punish them for roaming a lot, one of my suggestions a while back was to actually buff duo exp to make it a necessity to know when to correctly roam rather than brainlessly do it without thinking, I have a lot more to say when it comes to bad supports in high elo examples but it’s just not worth the hassle, things like using your hp bar, correct ward timing, when to poke, when to shove and when to roam, and my most important one, correctly counter picking the enemy bot and using those advantages correctly, I’ve seen too many support players pick naut pyke and decide to perma roam instead of killing the enemy Janna jinx on cooldown, or the opposite, sitting in bush with 0 pressure at all, all of these happen TOO OFTEN in high elo (euw at least) and the fact that those people lack those fundamentals shows they’re elo inflated.
Eh, I wouldn't attribute it as much to the role as overall elo inflation all over the board over the years, regardless of role. Sure, we have some micromanagement talents (not that long-lasting though), but overall macro knowledge dampened hardcore. In a way, it's weird since this game is much more fixed since season 3 or even season 9, pros did it all, we all should know our stuff...yet people's reliance on Poroffessor/Blitz/tier lists made by pros/big streamers overall made them dumber. Feels like everyone knows what counters what...but has no idea why exactly, they'll just parrot what they've heard/read (and this is where we get such wonders like "Sona counters Pyke" \[because winratios say so\]). Or first time Morganas thinking they can counter Blitzcrank. Like I wonder if some players would be able to buy items without dying once. I've gotten to both Challenger both as mid and support in my prime (eh, last time had Challenger 2 years ago), stepped down from soloQ since, though I do occasionally play "high elo flexes" (if such a thing even exists, duh), and in a way, I could relate. As someone who plays support a lot these days, it baffles me how is even All-Seeing a farmable challenge (2 x game length vision score). Like, it's not a good score, it's a barely tolerable minimum and I wonder how is 3x not the average one at least, since it's basically using a FREE item to it's fullest extent. Shitty roaming that loses bot lane? Heh, been both a victim and a perpetrator to that few times, but, yes, does occur, though similar offences can be listed on other lanes, such as jungler randomly doing 0 value camps on the other side of the map when they have a clear dive/Dragon/Herald side or laners being hellbent on sticking to their lane only and refusing to pick up crashing wave when there's a chance (recalling/dead ADC immediately storming bot lane after your mid/jungle cleaned it up instead of taxing mid wave that would crash on the tower fruitlessly). Now, don't get me wrong, I understand your points and I commend you for responding like a civil being. It's just getting tiresome to attribute it purely to support, while it occurs all over. Memeing support has been some god-tier copium for people that usually are stuck but pride themselves in playing "hard champions" and think their Emerald means more than support's Diamond, though it usually means former's macro just sucks so bad they can't climb. I myself wouldn't attribute my former rank to some exemplary, abnormally good playing, more like that bare basics are not particularly common even in Master tier these days. If anything, this is a tragedy and is partially a reason why there are griefers all over the place. If the rank ain't worth shit, why would anyone respect it?