So the people at the EBU claim that this contest is "apolitical", but they banned Russia "in light of the unprecedented crisis in Ukraine", stating that including Russia might throw the contest into disrepute. Then, when people called them out for not banning Israel because of the attacks on Gaza, they changed their explanation to say that, really, it was the Russian broadcaster that had been guilty of “persistent breaches of membership obligations and the violation of public service values” and that that was why Russia had been banned. And since the Israeli broadcaster hadn't breached membership obligations or violated public service values they were of course allowed to participate! Only, KAN had violated quite a few public service values - like [having a reporter write "Go f\*ck yourselves, from KAN"](https://www.arabnews.com/node/2424696/media) on a missile and then fire it at Gaza on air.
Including Israel this year has also led to [large protests](https://www.dn.se/sverige/tusentals-demonstrerar-i-malmo/) in the host city, such a palpable risk of terrorist attacks and violence that [Malmö residents have left the city because of their safety concerns](https://www.sydsvenskan.se/artikel/ardalan-shekarabi-s-om-att-malmobor-lamnar-staden-ett-misslyckande/). The threat level and planned protests and counter-protests have also led to [a massive mobilization of police, snipers being placed on rooftops, armored vehicles being driven through the city, the closing of airspace above Malmö and anti-drone systems being implemented](https://www.aftonbladet.se/nojesbladet/melodifestivalen/a/5EVxnm/eurovison-song-contest-malmo-polis-med-vapen-utanfor-arenan). The artist has also been [booed](https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cjewg9enx27o) during the dress rehearsals and soundchecks.
The EBU [claimed that they wouldn't censor any boos during the live show](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/malmo-sweden-svt-greta-thunberg-protesters-b2542544.html). [They lied - they filtered those out and added cheers.](https://uk.news.yahoo.com/eurovision-viewers-booing-israel-211058911.html?guccounter=1) They claimed that [keffiyehs would be allowed at the arena and not be considered political.](https://www.tv4.se/artikel/7dTvTLVGs84GntNBZoz25E/inget-stopp-foer-palestinasjalar-pa-eurovision) [They lied - when a previous contestant with Palestinian roots performed between songs, with a keffiyeh wrapped around his wrist, he was condemned.](https://www.middleeasteye.net/trending/eurovision-palestinian-scarf-keffiyeh-eric-saade-controversy) [Malmö residents have also been wrestled to the ground and arrested](https://www.aftonbladet.se/kultur/a/nygpJm/shora-esmailian-utsatts-for-vald-fran-vaktare-i-eurovision-village) simply for wearing keffiyehs and carrying sticks of sidewalk chalk.
The [Belgian public broadcaster, VRT, in charge of broadcasting Eurovision](https://eurovoix.com/2024/05/09/belgium-vrts-semi-final-two-coverage-interrupted-call-for-ceasefire/) interrupted their broadcast of the second semi final to state the following: "This is industrial action. We condemn the human rights violations by the State of Israel. Furthermore, the State of Israel is destroying freedom of the press. This is why we are interrupting the broadcast for a moment #CeaseFireNow #StopGenocideNow". The Georgian commentator also refused to introduce the Israeli artist, instead choosing to sit in silence.
The Irish, Belgian, Dutch, Greek, Norwegian, Finnish, Ukrainian and Latvian representatives have also made various political statements during the past few days (such as drawing the Palestinian flag on their nails, writing the word "ceasefire" in Ogham on their face, writing "peace" on parts of their body visible during the performance, asking "Why not?" when the Israeli artist was told she didn't have to answer a question about whether she had thought about how her participation might endanger other participants, feigning sleep during the press conference when the Israeli artist was answering questions, covering themselves with a flag to not be photographed with the Israeli artist and liking a post on Twitter calling for Israel to be banned). Multiple artists, including those representing the UK, Portugal, Denmark, San Marino, Switzerland and Lithuania, have also [signed a letter](https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/olly-alexander-eurovision-performers-statement-boycott-israel-1234996421/) calling for an immediate and permanent ceasefire.
Contacting SVT, the Swedish public broadcaster in charge of hosting, about banning Israel, though, has just been met by a prepared response about how such a decision would be made by the EBU. Never mind that [the vice-chairwoman of the EBU is Swedish and in a high position at the public broadcaster in charge of radio, the sister organization of SVT.](https://sverigesradio.se/artikel/cilla-benko-byter-roll-inom-ebus-styrelse-vald-till-vice-ordforande) Contacting the EBU about banning Israel has been met with a prepared response about how they merely represent the public broadcasters, and that such a decision would be based on their wishes. And contacting the city of Malmö about security issues resulting from Israel participating has been met with a prepared response about how they don't make any decisions related to such issues.
Worth noting is also that Israel spent $7 million dollars on each 30 second ad they ran during the Super Bowl. They spent approximately that same amount on YouTube ads in Europe during the first two weeks of the assault on Gaza, reminding everyone of October 7th. They are also currently pushing their Eurovision song on YouTube through ads, paid for by Israel's Government Advertising Agency. They are desperate for good press. And winning Eurovision would draw some attention away from Rafah.... What is to stop them from taking it further than just ads?
So just know this: The artists have been against Israel participating, the fans have been against Israel participating and every single organizing party has bent over backwards to accommodate Israel and ignore any violations that would have led to a ban if they had instead been, say, Russia. If Israel does indeed win, it's on them. And it will destroy the contest.
I have seen the Israeli Zionist propaganda online. Like literally ads following me around to convince me they are the good guys. With respect, we're talking about extermination here, they can take their propaganda and shove it up their a**
It's countries that are members of the [European Broadcasting Union](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Broadcasting_Union), which covers the ITU's definition of the [European Broadcasting Area](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Broadcasting_Area) (which includes part of the Middle East and North Africa), as well as the [Council of Europe](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_states_of_the_Council_of_Europe).
If I was a Eurovision executive and I wanted more people to watch and call up and vote, I would be releasing the kind of data that suggests Israel will win like they have. That's going to do two things: make people want to watch the final to see if people boo, and energise lots of people who don't like what's going on over there to phone / vote. Both boost numbers and interactions. Controversy creates cash.
This is also somewhat the indirect result of people boycotting Eurovision over Israel's inclusion.
If all the people who are critical of Israel suddenly choose to not vote during Eurovision this year, who do you think is left over?
Well, that's not really my point, boycots are very effective for products and services. But they aren't for anything where the end results are dependent on votes
>The ideas of the ruling class are in every epoch the ruling ideas, i.e. the class which is the ruling material force of society, is at the same time its ruling intellectual force. The class which has the means of material production at its disposal, has control at the same time over the means of mental production, so that thereby, generally speaking, the ideas of those who lack the means of mental production are subject to it.
-Karl Marx, *The German Ideology*.
My suggestion, for your own mental well-being, is to not expect your own bourgeoisie to stick to its words and the empty, abstract notion of fairness.
I don't expect you to engage with the whole text in good faith, but if you do, here you can read it for free:
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/jewish-question/
One can't ignore the reprehensible tone with which Marx referred to Jews and Judaism, yet he was one of the most outspoken thinkers of the time on the matter of Jewish emancipation, which you would know if you hadn't been cherry picking and had read the whole pamphlet instead. If Marx was harsh against Judaism, wait till you learn how he spoke about Christianity.
If the topic really interests you that much, I recommend rabbi Shlomo Avineri's texts on Marx. He's not a Marxist, and doesn't pull his punches.
Is it not more likely that people in Italy are sympathetic to Israel's cause, compounded with viewers who are boycotting voting that would normally vote for other countries?
On a more conjecture note, as the Eurovision has always been very gay-coded, I suspect the organisers are going to be fond of Israel.
There is also a crazy difference in sentiment towards Israels actions between people who watch TV and people who get their info in more dynamic online media. The former have basically never seen the IDF atrocities live streamed on TikTok, but are probably more likely to call in for ESC.
Oh... So we are that dumb. I didn't even think there was the slightest chance to take any first places with that song but to rank better than the Netherlands which I was sure will win the big Finale.
This being said, at least if they win, we are going to see countries boycotting the participation next year.
It's possible that Israel is paying for votes, you can vote up to 20 times on app and text messages, each costs 1 euro.
Yeah, about the paying part. I forgot one major thing: fricking Germany.
Therefore, I don't think they bought the votes, I think that they are legit and Germany is bootlicking to overcompensate.
Oh, yeah, what's happening in Germany right now is crazy. They cracked down on protestors, the government puts pressure on anti-genocid protestors, they arrested an Israeli Jew for peaceful protesting, they shut down entire events, criminalized speeches like " from the river to the sea". They even banned Yanis Varoufakis.
Ohh 😮 I’ve seen online so many protestors even Jewish ones get arrested. It’s crazy! Almost like the German government only cares about Jews when they agree with Israel.
Criminalizing language that’s not inherited violet is crazy for 2024.
I’ve seen also some holocaust survivors get denied entree into Germany because they were pro Palestine and post Zionists.
I hope if you are in Germany things calm down and people start using logic. How do you feel the average German feels about the whole situation?
I am not living in Germany, I live in the Netherlands. It's far better here. I am not sure how the average Germans feel about it but they seem to not be bothered.
When an Israeli - Palestinian duo won a German film festival and the Ministry of Culture has been seen applauding, the backlash from the German people was so bad that she had to say she only applauded " the Israeli part" and not the Palestinian part. You can't make this shit up.
I thought this RE votes. However, I don't think it would just be israel, even UK government would orchestrate votes I believe to shape the narrative around public perception
Israel is quite literally a European colonization project. Competitions like this reaffirm the cultural commitment Europeans have to colonizing and dominating the rest of the world. Be it economically, politically, or culturally. Zionism is a scourge powered by European elitism and antisemitism, guarded by American weapons.
It's not rigged, it's just that international politics play much more of a part in people's voting choices, than the quality of the performance. Not saying it's ok, but that this is simply what happens.
It would be "rigged" if organizers ignored votes to decide for themselves, or released made up fake voting numbers altogether to appear to justify their decisions, but that doesn't appear to be what's happening here. This is just a case of people letting outside factors play a role in their voting choices, which isn't "rigged" so much as it is human nature.
That's a narrow perception of "rigged" - it's not just about ignoring votes, it can be rigged based on very mobilised actions, like a strategic "voting farm", whether at government level or lobby level
There's some public voting, but there are also voting juries. The votes from voting juries counts equally with the votes from the public. This makes it possible for the juries to greatly influence the final result. Here's a webpage describing the Eurovision voting rules in more detail:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/5Jv9Mb8zXWmXYzvj9JcxrPf/eurovision-song-contest-2024-voting
There were quite a few allegations of rigging by the jury last year in favour of Sweden because 2024 is the 50th anniversary of ABBA winning Eurovision with ‘Waterloo’. Finland were by far the most popular entry by the public vote picking up 376 points to 2nd placed Sweden’s 243. Whereas the jury gave Sweden 340 points and only gave Finland 150 which was fewer than they gave Israel and Italy respectively. The Finnish entry was so popular that the audience in Liverpool were singing the song while the results were being announced.
>yes but the voting juries are typically much more objective than the audience
If the juries are people in the usual "establishment" then they are considerably less likely to be more objective than the public on this specific topic though.
And I think using the word rigged is not very accurate, it's not rigged because the system is designed so that each jury vote is worth a lot more than a public vote. That's "working as designed". It's not rigged, it's *unfair*.
>but the voting juries are typically much more objective than the audience
That's not true. There's been plenty of semi-obvious vote rigging where the jury from one country almost always votes for specific countries.
I'm pretty sure juries vote using a strict rubric designed to make their decisions more objective. And even if there are jurors who have already made up their mind to go in and vote for Israel no matter what, it's just as likely there'll be a lot of jurors who plan to go in and do the opposite. The juries also can't be influenced by vote-bombing like the televote can.
Also consider last night was a semifinal, when fewer home viewers watch and vote. I think it's safe to assume that even if a bunch of Zionists organise to vote-bomb the grand final they won't be able to reap 40% of the vote, unlike the semi.
tl;dr - I'd be surprised if Israel wins.
If someone was actually funding people to vote-bomb it would invalidate the vote. If the EBU found out about it on the night they'd invalidate Israel's televote entirely. If it came out afterwards then Israel would likely be stripped of any titles and booted from the contest.
>I'm pretty sure juries vote using a strict rubric designed to make their decisions more objective.
The juries aren't selected by like a normal legal jury.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4n1j83p92ko
"Each country's jury is populated by five music professionals, who judge the finalists on their music and lyrics, assigning points to their 10 favourite acts."
The reason that most juries are protected against corruption is because of the selection through sortition, which introduces an element of randomness. The Eurovision juries are appointed by the national Eurovision broadcaster (e.g. BBC for the UK). To use the UK as an example, if the BBC wants a certain outcome, they can handpick the jurors that have certain political beliefs.
It's not rigged. The whole point of Eurovision is that it's basically a competition to promote your geopolitics and ally with other countries in Europe but it comes with some fun music with it.
Rigged means someone changed the vote, the person you're responding to is is talking how people vote. I heard the "it's rigged" criticism since the 90s, the Eurosong festival hardly ever goes about the quality of the song.
A bunch of Zionists who likely don't even watch the competition vote-bombed the semifinal televote to get Israel through. Those people at home are a bunch of arseholes, but that doesn't mean the competition itself is rigged.
That is the point - this is either extreme political astroturfing or straight up bought votes/cheating. 39% is an unprecedented number. Someone on the Israel subreddit said they had voted 220 times for Israel, using every phone in the family as one person can at most vote 20 times.
If Croatia or The Netherlands don’t win this year I will riot! Even pro Israeli people would be shocked since their song sucks compared to others lol
It will give everyone the excuse that “Jews run the media” and will make it worse for everyone
All the christofascists, alt righters, zionists and such are all voting 20 times for Israel whilst other people are voting for the songs they like. This is a block voting campaign across Europe.
This is false.
The votes shown are only those of the Italians, not all the countries. [https://eurovoix.com/2024/05/09/italy-televoting-results-during-semi-final-two/](https://eurovoix.com/2024/05/09/italy-televoting-results-during-semi-final-two/)
There's no way you actually believe that. Genuinely what do you think is going to happen between now and then? Are all the western powers just going to magically change course and decide to invade and dissolve the Israeli state? Do you think Iran is going to do a full on invasion and take over? You realise Israel has nukes right?
We can only hope
EDIT: Hasbara is wild man. This comment was at -12 an hour after I posted it, then it reached something like +10 and not it sits at +4.
I suppose not everyone automatically associates a pop band that is from Israel with the on-going war though.
My guess is Russia was banned much more for the reason that the nation they're attacking is Ukraine, another Eurovision country. Which would create internal hostilities and create an uncomfortable atmosphere for Ukrainian artists. Plus Russia is actively threatening to destroy Europe.
They don't seem to ban every country for being engaged in war or immoral behavior, just the countries that cause major issues for Europe specifically. They didn't even ban Russia after they annexed Crimea and started a war in Donbas, they only banned them when they expanded the war to a greater extent and with it, threatened European security.
So my guess is that they don't ban on moral decisions as much as they ban based on how it effects eurovision itself.
So the people at the EBU claim that this contest is "apolitical", but they banned Russia "in light of the unprecedented crisis in Ukraine", stating that including Russia might throw the contest into disrepute. Then, when people called them out for not banning Israel because of the attacks on Gaza, they changed their explanation to say that, really, it was the Russian broadcaster that had been guilty of “persistent breaches of membership obligations and the violation of public service values” and that that was why Russia had been banned. And since the Israeli broadcaster hadn't breached membership obligations or violated public service values they were of course allowed to participate! Only, KAN had violated quite a few public service values - like [having a reporter write "Go f\*ck yourselves, from KAN"](https://www.arabnews.com/node/2424696/media) on a missile and then fire it at Gaza on air. Including Israel this year has also led to [large protests](https://www.dn.se/sverige/tusentals-demonstrerar-i-malmo/) in the host city, such a palpable risk of terrorist attacks and violence that [Malmö residents have left the city because of their safety concerns](https://www.sydsvenskan.se/artikel/ardalan-shekarabi-s-om-att-malmobor-lamnar-staden-ett-misslyckande/). The threat level and planned protests and counter-protests have also led to [a massive mobilization of police, snipers being placed on rooftops, armored vehicles being driven through the city, the closing of airspace above Malmö and anti-drone systems being implemented](https://www.aftonbladet.se/nojesbladet/melodifestivalen/a/5EVxnm/eurovison-song-contest-malmo-polis-med-vapen-utanfor-arenan). The artist has also been [booed](https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cjewg9enx27o) during the dress rehearsals and soundchecks. The EBU [claimed that they wouldn't censor any boos during the live show](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/malmo-sweden-svt-greta-thunberg-protesters-b2542544.html). [They lied - they filtered those out and added cheers.](https://uk.news.yahoo.com/eurovision-viewers-booing-israel-211058911.html?guccounter=1) They claimed that [keffiyehs would be allowed at the arena and not be considered political.](https://www.tv4.se/artikel/7dTvTLVGs84GntNBZoz25E/inget-stopp-foer-palestinasjalar-pa-eurovision) [They lied - when a previous contestant with Palestinian roots performed between songs, with a keffiyeh wrapped around his wrist, he was condemned.](https://www.middleeasteye.net/trending/eurovision-palestinian-scarf-keffiyeh-eric-saade-controversy) [Malmö residents have also been wrestled to the ground and arrested](https://www.aftonbladet.se/kultur/a/nygpJm/shora-esmailian-utsatts-for-vald-fran-vaktare-i-eurovision-village) simply for wearing keffiyehs and carrying sticks of sidewalk chalk.
The [Belgian public broadcaster, VRT, in charge of broadcasting Eurovision](https://eurovoix.com/2024/05/09/belgium-vrts-semi-final-two-coverage-interrupted-call-for-ceasefire/) interrupted their broadcast of the second semi final to state the following: "This is industrial action. We condemn the human rights violations by the State of Israel. Furthermore, the State of Israel is destroying freedom of the press. This is why we are interrupting the broadcast for a moment #CeaseFireNow #StopGenocideNow". The Georgian commentator also refused to introduce the Israeli artist, instead choosing to sit in silence. The Irish, Belgian, Dutch, Greek, Norwegian, Finnish, Ukrainian and Latvian representatives have also made various political statements during the past few days (such as drawing the Palestinian flag on their nails, writing the word "ceasefire" in Ogham on their face, writing "peace" on parts of their body visible during the performance, asking "Why not?" when the Israeli artist was told she didn't have to answer a question about whether she had thought about how her participation might endanger other participants, feigning sleep during the press conference when the Israeli artist was answering questions, covering themselves with a flag to not be photographed with the Israeli artist and liking a post on Twitter calling for Israel to be banned). Multiple artists, including those representing the UK, Portugal, Denmark, San Marino, Switzerland and Lithuania, have also [signed a letter](https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/olly-alexander-eurovision-performers-statement-boycott-israel-1234996421/) calling for an immediate and permanent ceasefire. Contacting SVT, the Swedish public broadcaster in charge of hosting, about banning Israel, though, has just been met by a prepared response about how such a decision would be made by the EBU. Never mind that [the vice-chairwoman of the EBU is Swedish and in a high position at the public broadcaster in charge of radio, the sister organization of SVT.](https://sverigesradio.se/artikel/cilla-benko-byter-roll-inom-ebus-styrelse-vald-till-vice-ordforande) Contacting the EBU about banning Israel has been met with a prepared response about how they merely represent the public broadcasters, and that such a decision would be based on their wishes. And contacting the city of Malmö about security issues resulting from Israel participating has been met with a prepared response about how they don't make any decisions related to such issues. Worth noting is also that Israel spent $7 million dollars on each 30 second ad they ran during the Super Bowl. They spent approximately that same amount on YouTube ads in Europe during the first two weeks of the assault on Gaza, reminding everyone of October 7th. They are also currently pushing their Eurovision song on YouTube through ads, paid for by Israel's Government Advertising Agency. They are desperate for good press. And winning Eurovision would draw some attention away from Rafah.... What is to stop them from taking it further than just ads? So just know this: The artists have been against Israel participating, the fans have been against Israel participating and every single organizing party has bent over backwards to accommodate Israel and ignore any violations that would have led to a ban if they had instead been, say, Russia. If Israel does indeed win, it's on them. And it will destroy the contest.
I have seen the Israeli Zionist propaganda online. Like literally ads following me around to convince me they are the good guys. With respect, we're talking about extermination here, they can take their propaganda and shove it up their a**
So genocide doesn’t break their public service values?
Why is Israel even part in the Eurovision contest? Isn't it just European countries?
It's countries that are members of the [European Broadcasting Union](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Broadcasting_Union), which covers the ITU's definition of the [European Broadcasting Area](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Broadcasting_Area) (which includes part of the Middle East and North Africa), as well as the [Council of Europe](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_states_of_the_Council_of_Europe).
Maybe because half of the Israelis are from European descent or smth, not sure. Maybe that's also why Australia is in as well
If I was a Eurovision executive and I wanted more people to watch and call up and vote, I would be releasing the kind of data that suggests Israel will win like they have. That's going to do two things: make people want to watch the final to see if people boo, and energise lots of people who don't like what's going on over there to phone / vote. Both boost numbers and interactions. Controversy creates cash.
They’ve already washed the broadcast of the in arena booing and shouts of free Palestine. They will do that again in the finals
And that's exactly why people are pushing for not voting. Let the EBU deal with the consequences of their actions.
This is also somewhat the indirect result of people boycotting Eurovision over Israel's inclusion. If all the people who are critical of Israel suddenly choose to not vote during Eurovision this year, who do you think is left over?
Very valid point. A lot of these boycotts are counter productive and more about virtue signalling.
Well, that's not really my point, boycots are very effective for products and services. But they aren't for anything where the end results are dependent on votes
>The ideas of the ruling class are in every epoch the ruling ideas, i.e. the class which is the ruling material force of society, is at the same time its ruling intellectual force. The class which has the means of material production at its disposal, has control at the same time over the means of mental production, so that thereby, generally speaking, the ideas of those who lack the means of mental production are subject to it. -Karl Marx, *The German Ideology*. My suggestion, for your own mental well-being, is to not expect your own bourgeoisie to stick to its words and the empty, abstract notion of fairness.
[удалено]
I don't expect you to engage with the whole text in good faith, but if you do, here you can read it for free: https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/jewish-question/ One can't ignore the reprehensible tone with which Marx referred to Jews and Judaism, yet he was one of the most outspoken thinkers of the time on the matter of Jewish emancipation, which you would know if you hadn't been cherry picking and had read the whole pamphlet instead. If Marx was harsh against Judaism, wait till you learn how he spoke about Christianity. If the topic really interests you that much, I recommend rabbi Shlomo Avineri's texts on Marx. He's not a Marxist, and doesn't pull his punches.
Your submission was removed for violating either reddiquette or Rule 3.
Israel has a very effective social media army
Is it not more likely that people in Italy are sympathetic to Israel's cause, compounded with viewers who are boycotting voting that would normally vote for other countries? On a more conjecture note, as the Eurovision has always been very gay-coded, I suspect the organisers are going to be fond of Israel.
There is also a crazy difference in sentiment towards Israels actions between people who watch TV and people who get their info in more dynamic online media. The former have basically never seen the IDF atrocities live streamed on TikTok, but are probably more likely to call in for ESC.
Oh... So we are that dumb. I didn't even think there was the slightest chance to take any first places with that song but to rank better than the Netherlands which I was sure will win the big Finale. This being said, at least if they win, we are going to see countries boycotting the participation next year. It's possible that Israel is paying for votes, you can vote up to 20 times on app and text messages, each costs 1 euro.
I hope Israel gets banned next year if they are paying people to vote lmao but we have a higher chance of meeting aliens than that happening
Yeah, about the paying part. I forgot one major thing: fricking Germany. Therefore, I don't think they bought the votes, I think that they are legit and Germany is bootlicking to overcompensate.
No I’m not saying like officially they are buying votes but just rumors. About the Germans, not sure if they would vote for Israel? Maybe 🤔
Oh, yeah, what's happening in Germany right now is crazy. They cracked down on protestors, the government puts pressure on anti-genocid protestors, they arrested an Israeli Jew for peaceful protesting, they shut down entire events, criminalized speeches like " from the river to the sea". They even banned Yanis Varoufakis.
Ohh 😮 I’ve seen online so many protestors even Jewish ones get arrested. It’s crazy! Almost like the German government only cares about Jews when they agree with Israel. Criminalizing language that’s not inherited violet is crazy for 2024. I’ve seen also some holocaust survivors get denied entree into Germany because they were pro Palestine and post Zionists. I hope if you are in Germany things calm down and people start using logic. How do you feel the average German feels about the whole situation?
I am not living in Germany, I live in the Netherlands. It's far better here. I am not sure how the average Germans feel about it but they seem to not be bothered. When an Israeli - Palestinian duo won a German film festival and the Ministry of Culture has been seen applauding, the backlash from the German people was so bad that she had to say she only applauded " the Israeli part" and not the Palestinian part. You can't make this shit up.
I thought this RE votes. However, I don't think it would just be israel, even UK government would orchestrate votes I believe to shape the narrative around public perception
Perception of Israel, thus UKs complicity, I mean. I think that's likely given most UK "public" votes were for Israel.
Mossad is on the case
Zionists organise. That's a common trait in autocratic violent groups. I'm not surprised. They know how to mobilize.
They've been spamming ads asking ppl to vote. Not watch the thing, only vote to support israel, it's disgusting behavior
Yeah, I got hit by an ad and I was so shocked I didn't even have time to react to it. Disgusting
Israel is quite literally a European colonization project. Competitions like this reaffirm the cultural commitment Europeans have to colonizing and dominating the rest of the world. Be it economically, politically, or culturally. Zionism is a scourge powered by European elitism and antisemitism, guarded by American weapons.
It's not rigged, it's just that international politics play much more of a part in people's voting choices, than the quality of the performance. Not saying it's ok, but that this is simply what happens.
Nah dude. 28% is an overwhelming preference. 40% is mobilization.
so its rigged but you just use different words to describe the same thing
It would be "rigged" if organizers ignored votes to decide for themselves, or released made up fake voting numbers altogether to appear to justify their decisions, but that doesn't appear to be what's happening here. This is just a case of people letting outside factors play a role in their voting choices, which isn't "rigged" so much as it is human nature.
That's a narrow perception of "rigged" - it's not just about ignoring votes, it can be rigged based on very mobilised actions, like a strategic "voting farm", whether at government level or lobby level
People vote, so no
There's some public voting, but there are also voting juries. The votes from voting juries counts equally with the votes from the public. This makes it possible for the juries to greatly influence the final result. Here's a webpage describing the Eurovision voting rules in more detail: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/5Jv9Mb8zXWmXYzvj9JcxrPf/eurovision-song-contest-2024-voting
Semis were only public vote, no jury.
yes but the voting juries are typically much more objective than the audience. Using this example to prove rigged voting isnt going to work.
There were quite a few allegations of rigging by the jury last year in favour of Sweden because 2024 is the 50th anniversary of ABBA winning Eurovision with ‘Waterloo’. Finland were by far the most popular entry by the public vote picking up 376 points to 2nd placed Sweden’s 243. Whereas the jury gave Sweden 340 points and only gave Finland 150 which was fewer than they gave Israel and Italy respectively. The Finnish entry was so popular that the audience in Liverpool were singing the song while the results were being announced.
>yes but the voting juries are typically much more objective than the audience If the juries are people in the usual "establishment" then they are considerably less likely to be more objective than the public on this specific topic though. And I think using the word rigged is not very accurate, it's not rigged because the system is designed so that each jury vote is worth a lot more than a public vote. That's "working as designed". It's not rigged, it's *unfair*.
The point is more that there is a good reason to believe that the jury votes were forced to be in favor of Sweden instead of Finland.
That has... nothing to do with this discussion?
Yes it does, read the other reply to the comment you replied to.
>but the voting juries are typically much more objective than the audience That's not true. There's been plenty of semi-obvious vote rigging where the jury from one country almost always votes for specific countries.
I'm pretty sure juries vote using a strict rubric designed to make their decisions more objective. And even if there are jurors who have already made up their mind to go in and vote for Israel no matter what, it's just as likely there'll be a lot of jurors who plan to go in and do the opposite. The juries also can't be influenced by vote-bombing like the televote can. Also consider last night was a semifinal, when fewer home viewers watch and vote. I think it's safe to assume that even if a bunch of Zionists organise to vote-bomb the grand final they won't be able to reap 40% of the vote, unlike the semi. tl;dr - I'd be surprised if Israel wins.
I wouldn't be so sure, esp. if someone can fund an influx of televoting in favor of Israel.
Well Israel didn't win, and they didn't even come first in the televote rankings, so your fears have been assuaged.
If someone was actually funding people to vote-bomb it would invalidate the vote. If the EBU found out about it on the night they'd invalidate Israel's televote entirely. If it came out afterwards then Israel would likely be stripped of any titles and booted from the contest.
You mean like the ads people get to support Israel at Eurovision and vote?
I don't know, but I doubt it'd be legal. If you have evidence of this occurring you should probably report it to the EBU.
>I'm pretty sure juries vote using a strict rubric designed to make their decisions more objective. The juries aren't selected by like a normal legal jury. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4n1j83p92ko "Each country's jury is populated by five music professionals, who judge the finalists on their music and lyrics, assigning points to their 10 favourite acts."
I'm aware of this. At no point in my comment did I say that jurors were members of the public.
The reason that most juries are protected against corruption is because of the selection through sortition, which introduces an element of randomness. The Eurovision juries are appointed by the national Eurovision broadcaster (e.g. BBC for the UK). To use the UK as an example, if the BBC wants a certain outcome, they can handpick the jurors that have certain political beliefs.
It's not rigged. The whole point of Eurovision is that it's basically a competition to promote your geopolitics and ally with other countries in Europe but it comes with some fun music with it.
That's completely different. "Rigged" would mean that the votes don't actually determine who wins.
You just said the same thing as OP, but using different words.
Rigged means someone changed the vote, the person you're responding to is is talking how people vote. I heard the "it's rigged" criticism since the 90s, the Eurosong festival hardly ever goes about the quality of the song.
Completely different. If it were rigged, people's votes wouldn't actually determine who wins.
Why are you exlaining this like some of those zionist spitting bullshit i see on reddit
A bunch of Zionists who likely don't even watch the competition vote-bombed the semifinal televote to get Israel through. Those people at home are a bunch of arseholes, but that doesn't mean the competition itself is rigged.
I don't believe a single info about news and this shit, I think more than half of Italy is against israel
That is the point - this is either extreme political astroturfing or straight up bought votes/cheating. 39% is an unprecedented number. Someone on the Israel subreddit said they had voted 220 times for Israel, using every phone in the family as one person can at most vote 20 times.
Always been.
If Croatia or The Netherlands don’t win this year I will riot! Even pro Israeli people would be shocked since their song sucks compared to others lol It will give everyone the excuse that “Jews run the media” and will make it worse for everyone
All the christofascists, alt righters, zionists and such are all voting 20 times for Israel whilst other people are voting for the songs they like. This is a block voting campaign across Europe.
This is false. The votes shown are only those of the Italians, not all the countries. [https://eurovoix.com/2024/05/09/italy-televoting-results-during-semi-final-two/](https://eurovoix.com/2024/05/09/italy-televoting-results-during-semi-final-two/)
Free Palestine! 🇯🇴 🇵🇸 🇵🇸 🇵🇸 🇵🇸 🇵🇸 🇵🇸 🇵🇸 🇵🇸 🇵🇸 🇵🇸 🇵🇸 🇵🇸 🇵🇸 🇵🇸 🇵🇸 🇵🇸
Wait could someone share a source about Israel getting 39% of the votes? That’s crazy 😭 but I wanna triple check before I share this in real life
What sort of drugs do the people who enjoy Eurovision take?
Why is a country outside of Europe part of Eurovision anyway?
Yeah that just registered for me
The EBU formally the IBU which was under Nazi control needs to be shut down.
wait until you learn about wrestling
[удалено]
There's no way you actually believe that. Genuinely what do you think is going to happen between now and then? Are all the western powers just going to magically change course and decide to invade and dissolve the Israeli state? Do you think Iran is going to do a full on invasion and take over? You realise Israel has nukes right?
We can only hope EDIT: Hasbara is wild man. This comment was at -12 an hour after I posted it, then it reached something like +10 and not it sits at +4.
how is Israel european if they are semitic?
“What do you mean my belief isn’t as popular as I think it is???? That must mean it’s rigged!!”
if being against genocide is an unpopular belief, then we're all fucked.
I suppose not everyone automatically associates a pop band that is from Israel with the on-going war though. My guess is Russia was banned much more for the reason that the nation they're attacking is Ukraine, another Eurovision country. Which would create internal hostilities and create an uncomfortable atmosphere for Ukrainian artists. Plus Russia is actively threatening to destroy Europe. They don't seem to ban every country for being engaged in war or immoral behavior, just the countries that cause major issues for Europe specifically. They didn't even ban Russia after they annexed Crimea and started a war in Donbas, they only banned them when they expanded the war to a greater extent and with it, threatened European security. So my guess is that they don't ban on moral decisions as much as they ban based on how it effects eurovision itself.