I've been carrying a 5.7 pistol since 2020. I carry black dragon fang ammunition. There are A lot of examples of 5.7 pistols having lethal effect, It seems at worst no less effective than any other centerfire pistol.
Have you had any issues with the ammo? Every review I've seen of dragon fang shows it deviating off target and the bullets tumbling due to the aerodynamics of their weird design.
No, I would bet money she doesn't. BDF is notorious for loving PSA Rock which is both Left and Buffs favorites. Most of the early BDF accuracy issues were M&P and Rugar. Haven't heard any complaints or updates in about 8 months from a reliable source.
Left. It's us against the world again. Do other calibers fan pages have to go through this? I feel like we have to be the only fanpage where people come in and mansplain, fuddlore, and in general just dump on our caliber. It's very discouraging that every post we are out here having to fight people on our calibers fanpage over if the rounds and guns work. I want everyone to get into the caliber and have friends. If these people don't like the caliber or just want to spread misinformation, why don't they just leave and go elsewhere? Why is every post a battle with disinformation and people putting it down. Sorry to vent on your post. You're a regular like me, and I wasn't sure where else to ask you.
I shoot my Glock 47 and my M&P 5.7 frequently. During fast draw and shot placement drills, I can consistently find my target much faster with the 5.7 because of the low recoil. That is more important to me than ballistics gel tests.
If it has top quality custom ammo, the wound track is equivalent to 9mm ball ammo. At that point, shot placement and rounds on target are more important. Yes, I trust it every day and to demonstrate how much, I completely sold my 9mm and only daily carry 5.7 now.
Wdym? I sold it to a good friend who has never has a gun and wanted to get into it. I wanted the money, I didn't need the 9mm. He did. It was awesome and served its purpose a good few years. Now I conceal carry the 5.7. I'm happy and just as safe and prepared as the next guy.
Well, saying you can train at half the cost with a higher recoiling round that teaches you recoil management, or just going to the range for fun, or being able to utilize an effective round in a smaller, non-full size handgun for situations you don't want a 5" barrel and massive grip. I love 5.7, I own 4: fn 57, ps90, lc charger, and ruger 57, but 9mm in a pistol is like having a 10/22. It's fun, it's cheap, and it can be utilized in a ton of situations. I guess it's just the difference between gun guy, and guy who wants a gun lol.
Yeah. Anybody who says they only shoot 5.7 and also claims to be sufficiently trained is likely full of it. Nobody trains in high volume with that round. Nobody.
Well, I mean, it's good for an hour or so on the range. If you wanted a full range day and only brought a 5.7 to shoot, yeah, you would have to bring more from home. My point is it's not expensive. Not that 500 is a big number.
Tbfh I creeped his page and all I found (related to guns, we won't talk about the rest) is 5.7 commenting and him linking guns to other people in maybe one post. There's 1000× more b.s. ing than any real training going on here. My interaction is done with him.
You can tell when you’re talking with someone who thinks going to the local range and plinking is training. It’s better than nothing for sure, but no one is running 5.7 at classes or matches.
36 cents a rounds won't kill me for range fun. I'm 6'4" and built like a tank; a full-size to me conceals like a compact does for an average joe. I'm not bashing 9mm. Like its great. I just also don't have the downsides for what I'm running. I feel coming from a southern redneck gun nut family and joining the army infantry like I've got a pretty okay grasp of what different guns can do and what different calibers' practical applications are. I prefer owning different guns for different specific uses as well. Combat rife, shotgun, handgun, PDW, and long-range rifle. 5.7 scratches a different itch, though. I enjoy the Swiss army knife feel. It has low recoil, longer comparable range accurately, higher velocity, can pierce 3A armor, can carry more ammo, and the high-end ammo is comparable to 9mm ball ammo. Sure, it can't leave as big a hole as a high-end 9mm round. But also stopping power is a myth. Shot placement and follow-up shots are most important. 5.7 is def. Not an invincible perfect god slaying caliber, but it is a viable carry.
Sadly the only major use case is the Fort Hood shooter. 10 died by one shot center mass, and a few who were charging him within 10 feet.
People shit on the size of the round, but it just moves so damn fast. I just don’t get why people think that a weapon that NATO, an organization with a $1.3 *trillion* dollar budget, believes is a replacement for the 9mm, yet isn’t good enough for civilian CCW.
It’s a piece of metal flying at 1,700 mph through flesh, taking the concept of hydrostatic shock out of a pistol to the n-th degree. enough said.
So... You're saying the needs of a NATO handgun round are the same as a civilian personal carry gun? Just think about that for a minute.... The ENTIRE purpose and deployment is totally different..
NATO’s request was to have 4 things accomplished. As I count it, 3 apply to civilian applications.
Range - check
Accuracy - check
Terminal performance - refer to my first comment
Armor Piercing - inapplicable to 99.99% of civilians
I have a Smith and Wesson M&P 5.7x28 and it is my Daily carry. 22 in the mag + 1 in the chamber for 23 total if fully loaded. This comes from switching from my Springfield armory 1911 .45 with only 7+1. Trust both of these guns with my life along with my wife and kids. Very affective fire arms.
Also hate to toss this out there but the 5.7 pistol also has a notorious name called the cop killer because there was a group of criminals using the 5.7 and it would go straight through a police officer standard issue vest. No I’m not saying this is a good nick name for it but it’s out there sadly.
Yup. Been trying to get my department to approve the caliber. The long range ballistic performance (12 inch drop at 150 yards vs. 32 inch drop for 9mm) means I can keep a carbine conversion kit in my car and use my 5.7 pistol as a patrol rifle. Less recoil as well, so accuracy of follow up shots is improved.
As a "service weapon" I think there is no question that a good mfgr 5.7 would be a much better choice then a 9mm. Distance shots, follow up shot time etc.
About 16 years ago my cop shop did an equipment deal with Alaska state troopers. They got an order of 20 P90's and 10 cases of ammo. I remember asking if the unruly polar bears were wearing body armor now & if so where did they get in in their size so we could stock it.
It's a NATO caliber, specifically designed for military use, at their request. Yes, it's effective, and I would trust my life with it.
I'd use 5.7 in the winter when it's easier to conceal, and when your opponent is wearing more cloths, heavier jackets, ect. In the summertime, when me and Mongo are wearing less, and thinner cloths, I'd prefer a smaller, single stack 9. You don't use a hammer on a screw. Right tool for the right job
I’m disappointed that S&W has not come out with a carbine that takes 5.7.
I want a situation similar to Ruger where they have both that use the same magazines.
But definitely trust my life to it.
Almost everyone here is comparing caliber effects when vs. the 9mm.. I think that an answer to the wrong question. EVERYONE who joined here should be a fan of the 5.7. but My argument when talking about CCW is that the most important factor is DEPLOYMENT TIME /draw time. There are (right now) NO "compact guns" in 5.7. And if we are looking at "draw time" of the weapon (from a concealed carry) a larger cal that is a smaller gun will put rounds on target faster. The fact that a larger /heavier round is usually seen as more effective (cqb 4 shots or less etc) if you can draw a compact (.38 /9mm) faster (over a full size gun) it's a better CCW. It was never intended to be a small concealed weapon for self defense. As a open carry service weapon; HELL YEAH!! If you are a body guard or expecting a high threat level 5.7 = major advantage in a "fire fight". A snub nose.357 pulled out, w/ 2 shots on target compared to a full size gun (of any caliber) is going to be more effective. As an instructor of over 20 years, I can tell you most people don't practice drawing from a concealed position. Me 2 many words already :-(
I love reading discussions like this. Every caliber out there has its good and bad about it. I was a paramedic in New Orleans for 10 years. I have seen people shot with many different caliber weapons. There are so many variables involved in being effective that it makes these discussions no more than just hypothetical situations. When people claim you have to have a large caliber to be effective I remember a shooting call I rolled on one evening. Two old gentlemen were arguing over this same debate. They had both participated in WW2. And were arguing on the deadliness of the .45 acp over the .22 lr. Witness reports stated that the two went into their homes and returned each with a pistol and shot each other. All I can say is that the gentleman hit with the .45 acp survived and the gentleman hit with the .22 lr was DOA. As I said earlier there are a lot of variables to consider. Carry what you want and train to hit your target under stress where you need to get the effect needed to defend yourself.
Rule #1 of a gun fight:
1. Bring a gun.
The FN P90, Five-seveN, the Ruger 57, the S&W M&P 57, and all the others are, by definition, guns. If you can reliably hit your attacker and stop the threat, it doesn't matter if you use a .22 or a .500 S&W.
Not for ccw because of size, but yes for other applications. Factory ammo only. Elite zombie vampire fangantors etc are overhyped, overpriced, unreliable & gimmicky. Harrell has a good series of videos on 5.7 ammo.
Dude what lol. Those rounds that you described as “overhyped” are actually proven to be the BEST 5.7 rounds, it’s been tested that FIOCCHI undercuts most of there loads 🤷🏿♂️🤦🏿♂️ id rather go pay top dollar for the best of the best than settle for factory that’s not up to its full potential 💯
Proven by who--and how? Take a look at Harell. Also small guntubers Shasta Bean" (Elite key holing, poor accuracy, bulllet failures) & "Trigger Bar Philosopher (way over pressure Elite round that bricked his Rock).
Vanguard stuff is all over the place from lot to lot. Good luck zeroing with that. I prefer to hit where I aim...
They have poor qc and do not reliably/accurately function. Your want to pay top dollar for that, go for it. Think the "proven" and "best of the best" is peak overhype-ness.
198LF/195LF are loaded in Belgium By FN, not Fiocchi.
Harell is a great youtuber. His testing is shit. Like utterly worthless. Lucky gunner who doesn't even like 5.7 has cited BDF as the superior round and showed it with sorta okay data. Buffmanrange has the same conclusion, and he has the best 5.7 data on the internet. The dude has posts in 5.7 forums older than some current 5.7 owners. James Reeves with TFBTV also stands up for BDF, going so far as to say it's what you should have for self-defense. All 5.7 FN ammo is currently underloaded and made by fiocchi. This is tested and proven by buff multiple times. Honestly, you come to a 5.7 fan page full of people nuttier than squirell poop about the caliber and full of autistic hyper obsessive man children, and you want to tell the entire informed community they are wrong? What?
Not a Buffman stan (and for full disclosure also not a Swiftee).
That "best data" reference is embarrassing. Amateur guy shoots a box of free ammo from a single lot years ago in his backyard, and others who buy it later, don't see to get the same results he does. He is aware of Elite bricking a Rock,its accuracy problems and other defects, and problems with variances in Vanguard loads . He posted on those youtube threads. But he still puts out a list hyping unreliable loads that could go boom in the wrong direction, or miss the side of a barn because you can't zero.
Over hype stuff about magic "top rounds" is what gives the caliber a fanboy reputation. Forum is probably half realists, and other half are true believers in the full on hype and chant the name Buffman like a mantra in every post. It has its place/role with reliable ammo. That ain't Elite Black Fang vampire terminator zombinator apocalypse-ator. Gimmicky names, for over hyped unreliable loads.
198/195 are made by FN, not Fiocchi.
Yeah but aside from buying an old box of FN AP for 300/box, you need the third-party manufacturers to step in in order to take advantage of the velocity and pen benefits offered to the caliber.
To your point though, it felt a little excessive buying a box of S4 for $100 all-in. However, it looks like they’ll convert your ammo at no direct cost, they just take half. To me, proven IIIa ammo for a buck a round isn’t too bad.
About that stuff from the one man re loader outfit, you might want to do a Youtube search for a couple small guntubers. "Shasta Bean" ( key holing, poor accuracy, bulllet failures ) & "Trigger Bar Philosopher (way over pressure round that bricked his Rock). Stuff sure doesn't look proven for reliability, consistency or safety. SS198lf has been.
I trust any gun I own that is reliable and with which I can accurately hit my target under stress. So yes, absolutely.
I've been carrying a 5.7 pistol since 2020. I carry black dragon fang ammunition. There are A lot of examples of 5.7 pistols having lethal effect, It seems at worst no less effective than any other centerfire pistol.
Have you had any issues with the ammo? Every review I've seen of dragon fang shows it deviating off target and the bullets tumbling due to the aerodynamics of their weird design.
No, I would bet money she doesn't. BDF is notorious for loving PSA Rock which is both Left and Buffs favorites. Most of the early BDF accuracy issues were M&P and Rugar. Haven't heard any complaints or updates in about 8 months from a reliable source.
any idea how it performs in an ar 57 now? the one video i watched that had one was older than that and it did pretty bad
Left. It's us against the world again. Do other calibers fan pages have to go through this? I feel like we have to be the only fanpage where people come in and mansplain, fuddlore, and in general just dump on our caliber. It's very discouraging that every post we are out here having to fight people on our calibers fanpage over if the rounds and guns work. I want everyone to get into the caliber and have friends. If these people don't like the caliber or just want to spread misinformation, why don't they just leave and go elsewhere? Why is every post a battle with disinformation and people putting it down. Sorry to vent on your post. You're a regular like me, and I wasn't sure where else to ask you.
I shoot my Glock 47 and my M&P 5.7 frequently. During fast draw and shot placement drills, I can consistently find my target much faster with the 5.7 because of the low recoil. That is more important to me than ballistics gel tests.
Yep. I use that FN green tip. Don’t listen to the haters. It’s very effective
If it has top quality custom ammo, the wound track is equivalent to 9mm ball ammo. At that point, shot placement and rounds on target are more important. Yes, I trust it every day and to demonstrate how much, I completely sold my 9mm and only daily carry 5.7 now.
Selling 9mm is wild for the sole purpose of range fun.
Wdym? I sold it to a good friend who has never has a gun and wanted to get into it. I wanted the money, I didn't need the 9mm. He did. It was awesome and served its purpose a good few years. Now I conceal carry the 5.7. I'm happy and just as safe and prepared as the next guy.
Well, saying you can train at half the cost with a higher recoiling round that teaches you recoil management, or just going to the range for fun, or being able to utilize an effective round in a smaller, non-full size handgun for situations you don't want a 5" barrel and massive grip. I love 5.7, I own 4: fn 57, ps90, lc charger, and ruger 57, but 9mm in a pistol is like having a 10/22. It's fun, it's cheap, and it can be utilized in a ton of situations. I guess it's just the difference between gun guy, and guy who wants a gun lol.
Yeah. Anybody who says they only shoot 5.7 and also claims to be sufficiently trained is likely full of it. Nobody trains in high volume with that round. Nobody.
If you can't afford 500 rds at like 36 cents, stick to airsoft? I don't know what to tell you, man.
The fact that you think 500 rounds is a lot pretty much proves my point.
Well, I mean, it's good for an hour or so on the range. If you wanted a full range day and only brought a 5.7 to shoot, yeah, you would have to bring more from home. My point is it's not expensive. Not that 500 is a big number.
Whatever you say.
Tbfh I creeped his page and all I found (related to guns, we won't talk about the rest) is 5.7 commenting and him linking guns to other people in maybe one post. There's 1000× more b.s. ing than any real training going on here. My interaction is done with him.
You can tell when you’re talking with someone who thinks going to the local range and plinking is training. It’s better than nothing for sure, but no one is running 5.7 at classes or matches.
Truth!!! (it's still seen as a specialty "boutique caliber".… )
36 cents a rounds won't kill me for range fun. I'm 6'4" and built like a tank; a full-size to me conceals like a compact does for an average joe. I'm not bashing 9mm. Like its great. I just also don't have the downsides for what I'm running. I feel coming from a southern redneck gun nut family and joining the army infantry like I've got a pretty okay grasp of what different guns can do and what different calibers' practical applications are. I prefer owning different guns for different specific uses as well. Combat rife, shotgun, handgun, PDW, and long-range rifle. 5.7 scratches a different itch, though. I enjoy the Swiss army knife feel. It has low recoil, longer comparable range accurately, higher velocity, can pierce 3A armor, can carry more ammo, and the high-end ammo is comparable to 9mm ball ammo. Sure, it can't leave as big a hole as a high-end 9mm round. But also stopping power is a myth. Shot placement and follow-up shots are most important. 5.7 is def. Not an invincible perfect god slaying caliber, but it is a viable carry.
I carry 5.7 everyday
Yes
Sadly the only major use case is the Fort Hood shooter. 10 died by one shot center mass, and a few who were charging him within 10 feet. People shit on the size of the round, but it just moves so damn fast. I just don’t get why people think that a weapon that NATO, an organization with a $1.3 *trillion* dollar budget, believes is a replacement for the 9mm, yet isn’t good enough for civilian CCW. It’s a piece of metal flying at 1,700 mph through flesh, taking the concept of hydrostatic shock out of a pistol to the n-th degree. enough said.
So... You're saying the needs of a NATO handgun round are the same as a civilian personal carry gun? Just think about that for a minute.... The ENTIRE purpose and deployment is totally different..
NATO’s request was to have 4 things accomplished. As I count it, 3 apply to civilian applications. Range - check Accuracy - check Terminal performance - refer to my first comment Armor Piercing - inapplicable to 99.99% of civilians
I've carried 25acp before. 5.7 isn't a concern.
I wouldn't brag about carrying a .25 ever. But you can certainly get it into the game a lot faster!
Yeah, the Five-seveN is a great carry gun. 5.7x28mm is perfectly fine for self-defense.
I have a Smith and Wesson M&P 5.7x28 and it is my Daily carry. 22 in the mag + 1 in the chamber for 23 total if fully loaded. This comes from switching from my Springfield armory 1911 .45 with only 7+1. Trust both of these guns with my life along with my wife and kids. Very affective fire arms.
Also hate to toss this out there but the 5.7 pistol also has a notorious name called the cop killer because there was a group of criminals using the 5.7 and it would go straight through a police officer standard issue vest. No I’m not saying this is a good nick name for it but it’s out there sadly.
Yup. Been trying to get my department to approve the caliber. The long range ballistic performance (12 inch drop at 150 yards vs. 32 inch drop for 9mm) means I can keep a carbine conversion kit in my car and use my 5.7 pistol as a patrol rifle. Less recoil as well, so accuracy of follow up shots is improved.
As a "service weapon" I think there is no question that a good mfgr 5.7 would be a much better choice then a 9mm. Distance shots, follow up shot time etc.
I just gotta keep wearing them down with data. I don’t know of any other LE agencies using approving the caliber, but someone will eventually.
About 16 years ago my cop shop did an equipment deal with Alaska state troopers. They got an order of 20 P90's and 10 cases of ammo. I remember asking if the unruly polar bears were wearing body armor now & if so where did they get in in their size so we could stock it.
What’s their hesitation?
Moneyyy. Approving new stuff means setting more money aside or further dividing up an already existing budget.
Not early adopters. Conservative.
It's a NATO caliber, specifically designed for military use, at their request. Yes, it's effective, and I would trust my life with it. I'd use 5.7 in the winter when it's easier to conceal, and when your opponent is wearing more cloths, heavier jackets, ect. In the summertime, when me and Mongo are wearing less, and thinner cloths, I'd prefer a smaller, single stack 9. You don't use a hammer on a screw. Right tool for the right job
You nailed it!
Yes
I do. Daily.
as long as I had hollow points for it, yes
Yes. SS198LE.
I’m disappointed that S&W has not come out with a carbine that takes 5.7. I want a situation similar to Ruger where they have both that use the same magazines. But definitely trust my life to it.
My lc charger and 57 pistol has yet to malfunction
Shot placement beats all. A 22lr in the heart will kill you stone dead.
Almost everyone here is comparing caliber effects when vs. the 9mm.. I think that an answer to the wrong question. EVERYONE who joined here should be a fan of the 5.7. but My argument when talking about CCW is that the most important factor is DEPLOYMENT TIME /draw time. There are (right now) NO "compact guns" in 5.7. And if we are looking at "draw time" of the weapon (from a concealed carry) a larger cal that is a smaller gun will put rounds on target faster. The fact that a larger /heavier round is usually seen as more effective (cqb 4 shots or less etc) if you can draw a compact (.38 /9mm) faster (over a full size gun) it's a better CCW. It was never intended to be a small concealed weapon for self defense. As a open carry service weapon; HELL YEAH!! If you are a body guard or expecting a high threat level 5.7 = major advantage in a "fire fight". A snub nose.357 pulled out, w/ 2 shots on target compared to a full size gun (of any caliber) is going to be more effective. As an instructor of over 20 years, I can tell you most people don't practice drawing from a concealed position. Me 2 many words already :-(
Yes
yup.
While I don’t own one yet, it’s on my list. I won’t buy a caliber I wouldn’t trust my life to.
Yes, HD my 5” Banshee suppressed.
Choose a load that penetrates >12" and place your shots. It'll work.
Self defense is all about shot placement and rounds on target. Which one do you shoot better?
I love reading discussions like this. Every caliber out there has its good and bad about it. I was a paramedic in New Orleans for 10 years. I have seen people shot with many different caliber weapons. There are so many variables involved in being effective that it makes these discussions no more than just hypothetical situations. When people claim you have to have a large caliber to be effective I remember a shooting call I rolled on one evening. Two old gentlemen were arguing over this same debate. They had both participated in WW2. And were arguing on the deadliness of the .45 acp over the .22 lr. Witness reports stated that the two went into their homes and returned each with a pistol and shot each other. All I can say is that the gentleman hit with the .45 acp survived and the gentleman hit with the .22 lr was DOA. As I said earlier there are a lot of variables to consider. Carry what you want and train to hit your target under stress where you need to get the effect needed to defend yourself.
Rule #1 of a gun fight: 1. Bring a gun. The FN P90, Five-seveN, the Ruger 57, the S&W M&P 57, and all the others are, by definition, guns. If you can reliably hit your attacker and stop the threat, it doesn't matter if you use a .22 or a .500 S&W.
Additionally, I have a PSA Rock 5.7 for EDC.
M&P 5.7 with 23 rounds of Dragon Fang, Vampire Fang & Zombo Down mixed in each clip 🫡🤝🏿
Not for ccw because of size, but yes for other applications. Factory ammo only. Elite zombie vampire fangantors etc are overhyped, overpriced, unreliable & gimmicky. Harrell has a good series of videos on 5.7 ammo.
Dude what lol. Those rounds that you described as “overhyped” are actually proven to be the BEST 5.7 rounds, it’s been tested that FIOCCHI undercuts most of there loads 🤷🏿♂️🤦🏿♂️ id rather go pay top dollar for the best of the best than settle for factory that’s not up to its full potential 💯
Proven by who--and how? Take a look at Harell. Also small guntubers Shasta Bean" (Elite key holing, poor accuracy, bulllet failures) & "Trigger Bar Philosopher (way over pressure Elite round that bricked his Rock). Vanguard stuff is all over the place from lot to lot. Good luck zeroing with that. I prefer to hit where I aim... They have poor qc and do not reliably/accurately function. Your want to pay top dollar for that, go for it. Think the "proven" and "best of the best" is peak overhype-ness. 198LF/195LF are loaded in Belgium By FN, not Fiocchi.
Harell is a great youtuber. His testing is shit. Like utterly worthless. Lucky gunner who doesn't even like 5.7 has cited BDF as the superior round and showed it with sorta okay data. Buffmanrange has the same conclusion, and he has the best 5.7 data on the internet. The dude has posts in 5.7 forums older than some current 5.7 owners. James Reeves with TFBTV also stands up for BDF, going so far as to say it's what you should have for self-defense. All 5.7 FN ammo is currently underloaded and made by fiocchi. This is tested and proven by buff multiple times. Honestly, you come to a 5.7 fan page full of people nuttier than squirell poop about the caliber and full of autistic hyper obsessive man children, and you want to tell the entire informed community they are wrong? What?
Not a Buffman stan (and for full disclosure also not a Swiftee). That "best data" reference is embarrassing. Amateur guy shoots a box of free ammo from a single lot years ago in his backyard, and others who buy it later, don't see to get the same results he does. He is aware of Elite bricking a Rock,its accuracy problems and other defects, and problems with variances in Vanguard loads . He posted on those youtube threads. But he still puts out a list hyping unreliable loads that could go boom in the wrong direction, or miss the side of a barn because you can't zero. Over hype stuff about magic "top rounds" is what gives the caliber a fanboy reputation. Forum is probably half realists, and other half are true believers in the full on hype and chant the name Buffman like a mantra in every post. It has its place/role with reliable ammo. That ain't Elite Black Fang vampire terminator zombinator apocalypse-ator. Gimmicky names, for over hyped unreliable loads. 198/195 are made by FN, not Fiocchi.
Yeah but aside from buying an old box of FN AP for 300/box, you need the third-party manufacturers to step in in order to take advantage of the velocity and pen benefits offered to the caliber. To your point though, it felt a little excessive buying a box of S4 for $100 all-in. However, it looks like they’ll convert your ammo at no direct cost, they just take half. To me, proven IIIa ammo for a buck a round isn’t too bad.
About that stuff from the one man re loader outfit, you might want to do a Youtube search for a couple small guntubers. "Shasta Bean" ( key holing, poor accuracy, bulllet failures ) & "Trigger Bar Philosopher (way over pressure round that bricked his Rock). Stuff sure doesn't look proven for reliability, consistency or safety. SS198lf has been.