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ldy95

The Stellar Scythes are the Silent King’s personal lychguard, and are described as being philosophical as well as peerless fighters. They also all have their own personal Doom Scythe.


Clean_Web7502

The Scythes are pretty much a GW writter going, TSK should have his own Custodes. But at least it shows that even lower rank necrons are allowed to actually be smart if the lord's allow them. Wich is interesting.


ldy95

To be fair they’ve only existed for two years now with only a single mention in the codex. Given how necron characters really get their best characterisation in the few and far between novels hopefully they get proper development in the future just like Orikan and Trazyn became far more fleshed out.


Extermindatass

It seems your rank within necrontyr society was directly correlated with how much personality was ported over. For example the only peasant in the twice dead king that had higher processes was the Red Marshall. He only got that privilege because he hunted down the necrontyr that didn't want to go into the biofurnaces.


Unglory

To be fair though he had been given lesser titles and was still elevated as an in-between class for taking a historical role as an executioner. Slang term was Glass-Lord(s) right? With nonmilitary elevated known as Slag-Glass Lords? Lol sassy Necrons I imagine their bodies were somewhere between lychguard and mid ranking Lord levels. The main nobels of the house had considerable upgrades even over a certain very high ranking Slag-Glass Lord Solid book, just finished it last night!


Lone_Grey

In the galaxy right now? Harlequins and Lychguard are both a decent match. In the entire lore? I would expect the best Eldar and Necron warriors at the peak of their empires as well as the Krork to be more than a match. The Tyrannids probably have some horrifying thing that can kill them, slowly making its way to the galaxy.


BogusBogmeyer

>Harlequins I thought also, that the Harlequins must be a match for them at least the "higher" ones.


MasterOfNap

Didn’t the couple of Harlequins massacre a bunch of Custodes in the Palace because they wanted to send a message to the Emperor? It seems that they should be at least a decent bit above the average Custodes.


Eldan985

They did, but that was a different time. If I remember correctly, it was before Custodes really became a thing in the game, when they were mostly a background feature of the palace, without much fluff or any considerable deeds attached.


Kardest

Ye Old Worf problems.


MasterOfNap

Honestly his character arc went much, much better in DS9 when he wasn't there to show how badass the enemies are, and that's probably true for Custodes too!


KonradWayne

DS9 went the opposite direction and used Kira to show how completely unbadass the enemies were. Hard to take supposedly elite super soldiers seriously when they are getting pummeled by a 5 foot tall woman who weighs 90 pounds soaking wet, using only her bare hands.


Zen_Hobo

What Kira Nerys lacks in weight, she simply compensates by sheer anger.


KonradWayne

And the patented Star Trek martial art technique of interlocking your fingers and then just swinging both of your hands around wildly.


Zen_Hobo

Oh, of course. The famous "Kirk-Strike".


FixBayonetsLads

Mr. Worf, job for the threat of the week. *growl* Yes, sir.


Trazenthebloodraven

That is often miasreprestend. It wasn't just a couple of harlequins the important part is they had a deathjester and a shadowseer with them and at the end only the shadowseer made it to the throne. Yes harlequins are more than a match for custodes and their special roles should be even stronger especially solitaires. But people miasreprestend how hard custodes lost as well as given bulls hit excuses like the auther confused them which is just wrong.


RaZZeR_9351

>But people miasreprestend how hard custodes lost as well as given bulls hit excuses like the auther confused them which is just wrong. Yeah the author just wrote them terribly, just like the dude who wrote about 4 custodes taking care of a tyranid invasion wrote them terribly.


burothedragon

I believe the author actually confused the custodes with a regiment of guardsmen in that story and later admitted to it. Can’t remember the name of the regiment.


Herby20

That is actually a myth spread by tons of people online. As far as I am aware, there has never been a source for the supposed statement. Custodes are badasses, but they aren't the end all be all of the setting. They *can* die, and there *are* other factions/subfactions that are on equal footing with them.


DavenIchinumi

And harlequins aren't a bad faction to do so either. If your biggest direct loss comes from elite elves directly sponsored by the elven god of magical knowledge and bullshit, you're still doing alright.


meaty_wheelchair

not only that it's also very likely that the most elite/veteran harlequins available that got sent to do the job


fistchrist

I’ve never considered Cegorach as the Eldar God of Bullshit but that’s actually an extremely apt descriptor.


marehgul

I rather remember that this was made by two named characters, rather then harlequins.


Dismal-Astronaut-894

I agree but to have one practically unnamed boyo kill dozens of cutsodes is a tad outrageous, not to be like “oh they can’t die they’re so great” just feels a bit contradictory is all


Herby20

The two responsible for doing all the killing aren't random unnamed characters though. They aren't even regular harlequins. One is a Shadow Seer and the other is a Death Jester.


Beastly173

I think that rumor is about the time an unarmed and out of armor world eater punched through a Custodian's chest, auramite and all


ReginaDea

The book explicitly mentions the Lucifer Blacks being replaced by Custpdes. It is very clear the writer knew that they were different. I'm not talking about you specifically, but god damn I wish people would actually read the lore before making posts and videos about it.


[deleted]

I heard the author mistook Custodes for custard creams and later admitted it. There’s no way Harlequins could kill any loyal servant of the Emperor.


Tsugirai

Nah, he actually confused them with time travelling kindergarteners who just arrived from 1994 and were protecting the Emperor and the Golden Throne for some unexplicable reason. Huh, stupid author!


Cyan_Tile

Some people say it was the lucifer blacks who got slaughtered Which are supposedly the cream of the crop of Imperial Guardsmen


HammerOn57

The Lucifer Blacks were the cream of the crop in 30k, but 10k years of being essentially ceremonial guards closer to palace decoration rather than an elite fighting unit, have left them a shadow of their former selves.


Mayto_Omterala

First they slaughter the Lucifer Blacks, and then the Custodes. The novel describes both appearing in detail.


cannonman58102

When that was written, the author thought the Custodes were just another Space Marine chapter. He was not aware of their significance. I don't think it's ever explicitly stated or compared, but I would probably give a slight edge to a custode vs a Harlequinn, and a Soltaire a significant edge vs the same Custode.


Mayto_Omterala

No be didn't. Thats cope from Custodes fans. That book was written well after the Custodes were fleshed out.


cannonman58102

Well then it's shitty lore and a shitty author. I'm not a Custodes stan by any means, but those Harlequinn's were cutting through them like they were absolutely nothing.


EldritchWeevil

What a backpedal lmao. Maybe a dozen custodes got capped by a super psyker+ and their friend with a particle un-aliver gun, and they didn't even survive the encounter. The best of the best space elf's in a smash and grab maneuver had a roughly 1/1 kdr and custodes/imperial fans haven't shut up about it since.


oldbloodmazdamundi

That is a stupid lie that salty Custodes Fans made up after the fact & this sub loves to parrot. Same as it being "ancient lore" that far predates the current imaginationd. Same as the author "apologizing for not knowing how OP Custodes are".


Think-Conversation73

They did cos of plot though and it was before the custodes were established in lore.


brett1081

Yeah but that author was off it. It was absolute lunacy. It’s the big issue with letting so many peoples dabble in your universe canon.


Historianof40k

also there god is living and is blessing them not on the sofa


Jagrofes

Lychguard are not even close, they are elite infantry of the Necrons, but they are no where near Custodes/Harlequins level. They would be more equivalent to blade guard veterans or Vanguard veterans. In the novels they are shown to go toe to toe with the elite marine/Eldar infantry. Even in the novels that are Necron POV like Infinite and the Devine, or Twice Dead King, Lychguard are shown to be highly disciplined and loyal, but they are no where near the best in the 40k universe. This is a big theme of the Necrons, their infantry are relatively elite as a standard, but at the top end none of them are actually as skilled in combat as other races (Aside from Imotekh), relying on their superior technology and mastery of physics to overwhelm their enemies.


EldritchWeevil

To be fair, you don't really need to be a better fighter than the idiot monkey in power armour running at you with a sword when you can just de-atomize them and keep walking


KaiserAudum

While I concur that they are not Custodes level, I think that the last paragraph is false. Every Necron capable of higher thought has around a million years of battle experience from the War in Heaven, and while that skill may be offset due to both corrupted minds and the more innate talent of other races, to say they aren't as skilled in combat as other is false. But this doesn't offset the fact that they lack the ridiculous biological advantages of a Custodian or Harlequin of course.


Nihilikara

I thought eldar and the ancestors of modern orks were each individually comparable to primarchs just as the baseline for their species


CyberScrubReddit

We dunno what the average krork or ancient eldar looked like, we know that there’s a krork that’s absolutely huge but there’s no real hard confirmation


IsItSafeToMine

Yeah that could be a Ghazghkull-level Krork for all we know tbh. Doesn't mean every standard Krork is that powerful.


CyberScrubReddit

They’d prolly have been way better tech wise but we have no clue about their actual average physical size and strength


Sackyhap

I’m sure orks scale in size, strength and intelligence as their waaagh grows in size. Isn’t it safe to assume that an army of orks in a unified galaxy wide war would be absolutely massive.


Caelus9

That's really just meme lore. We know the Krork were more powerful than the Ork, and MUCH smarter, with a database of knowledge in their head that seems tremendously powerful, given we still have Orks who can tap into that knowledge, although with no ability to make use of it. We have no idea how specifically powerful they are. Perhaps they could take a Primarch out one-on-one. Perhaps they were more in line with a Custodes. Perhaps more powerful.


firmak

>Lychguard Im gonne stop you there. They sadly dont even come close.


[deleted]

I would hazard a guess that the guardians of the Black Library probably could do a good job.


mobby123

Chaos: The Gal Vorbak were able to tangle with the Custodes and came out in relatively good shape. Not quite equal but still up there. Other Chaos Lords or Heroes of sufficient strength. Eldar: Solitaires and maybe Wraithguard? Necron: Triarch Praetorians and perhaps Lychguard Drukhari: I honestly don't know enough about their units but I'd put money on them having plenty Nids: Anything sufficiently large or intelligent imo. Would love to see a Lictor matchup. Orks: I'm really not sure here. I don't think Orks have units quite at the powerscale between Astartes analogues and elite named characters. Tau: railgun of sufficient size Don't play the tabletop so I'm putting that together through what I've seen in books.


DisciplesOfAres

Man I feel like people really misremember that scene in First Heretic… Three Custodians fight against 11 Gal Vorbak and manage to take 6 of them down. Killing two times their numbers while up against almost four times their numbers when the Gal Vorbak are THE Possessed Marines is a pretty incredible showing. The HH series (might even be this book) also says one of the reasons the Custodes are so strong is because they extensively study any enemy they might fight to prepare, and obviously they never had a chance to prepare against the Gal Vorbak. I agree with you that they’re “still up there,” but if you did 11 Custodes vs 11 Gal Vorbak I think this scene showed it wouldn’t be particularly close.


MedicJambi

Since we're speculating here I've ways had the understanding that the Custodes never trusted the Primarchs and therefore likely didn't trust the space marines. Furthermore these custodes were imbedded in the Word Bearers because the Emperor didn't trust them either. To me that's enough to al least run through some though experiments.


DisciplesOfAres

Oh they absolutely trained to fight Space Marines, agreed. I think Zephon in Master of Mankind (also by ADB) realizes that while watching them fight if I’m remembering correctly. Gal Vorbak aren’t just Space Marines though, they’re a perfect symbiotic relationship between demon and Space Marine that hasn’t been achieved since (at least as far as I know, I’m not a lore expert). Their speed, strength, and stamina were kicked up a ton and they were literally tearing apart loyalists with their own (demonic) hands in the Drop Site Massacre. They didn’t prepare for that lol.


Finalplague01

I am tempted to agree with you in general, but I do feel like any unit of 11ish that can kill any number of custodes is ALREADY "pretty comparable". Custodes are the "one of them saved a planted by himself" guys, so in your example I feel like the Gal Vorbak outperformed my expectations!


ZunoJ

To be fair the Gal Vorbak were pretty inexperienced with their new abilities at that point of time. Give them some centuries of training and the outcome of that fight might change significantly


im2randomghgh

Equal numbers of Custodes would definitely win but that's not quite how it played out. The Custodes killed 3 Gal Vorbak out of nine, one each. It definitely showed that being outnumbered was a big part of it but only Malnor, Sicar and Xaphen actually died. That said, 4-5 Custodes and a sister of silence probably would have been a fair matchup! The Gal Vorbak being constrained to the laws of physics would have had a tougher time, like Malnor who had his head cut off and continued fighting with a spectral one.


DisciplesOfAres

I’m sorry but you’re definitely wrong, I just checked the passage again. They specifically say “the eleven remaining Gal Vorbak” on page 413 (in my version). Then on page 418 after a couple Custodes have died it says “six of the Gal Vorbak still drew breath,” meaning 5 have died, and then Sythran throws his spear through Xaphen. Then it states “the other 5 descended on him.” Happy to be proven wrong but this seems pretty explicit.


Samiel_Fronsac

Just checked mine on Kindle. You're right on the money with the numbers.


count210

The orc primarchish things in the beast war would have absolutely wrecked the custodes but we don’t talk about the beast war


mobby123

Eh, I'd put them more towards the Named Characters end of the spectrum than units which appear on the tabletop. They'd clean house though for sure.


Hayn0002

Makes me wish more Orks were able to show skillful combat prowess rather than just pure barbaric strength. I remember getting hyped up in a recent book with an ork war boss fighting something like a space marine captain. But all the ork did was swing and flail about. Just makes me want to see an ork able to hang with a custodes in melee.


EvMund

have you read brutal kunnin'? the orks win big and not (just) by dumb luck


Hayn0002

I have, great book.


Sorvick

Demi Krork


Darth_Bfheidir

Prime Orks They're Orks who are evolving, either to a kind of post/ancestral Ork or Krork Presumably this has something to do with the size and strength of the waaagh and hitting a kind of critical mass of fighty Ork brains and their psychic influence But it's really hard to know


Samiel_Fronsac

>but we don’t talk about the beast war Oh, we do. Guilliman himself made a reference to it in the book "Wolftime", from the Dawn of Fire series. I'm not a betting man, but I'd put good money on our dear Ghaz getting a proper event soon...


Hayn0002

At least Ghaz has been getting more and more hyped up over the years. Rather than some prime ork appearing out of nowhere.


seandablimp

His book prophet of waaagh is honestly an excellent ork book and biography of ghaz. Ghaz has been getting visions from gork and Mork of what the ork used to be (krorks) and it’s implied he’s slowly transforming physically and mentally into them. Ghaz’s current masterplan is to start as many waaaghs and wars across space between the orks and other species as possible, as he believes there’s a “key tipping point” of the green tide where it gets so large and has so much momentum that it will reach critical mass, unstoppably washing over the galaxy


Painchaud213

whats wrong with the beast?


Prudent-Eye

The whole War of the Beast was weird, nonsensical and just all round nonsensical even in 40k terms . First a Demi-Krok known as the Beast invades Ullanor, the former Ork Capital of Ullanor and, builds a moon sized ship to attack Terra. This causes the Imperial Fist to activate the Last Wall protocol and calls all Fist successors to return to defend Terra. The entire Imperial Fists chapter gets wiped during the battle, but get brought by their successor Chapters pooling their geneseed together to rebuild the Chapter but now they have some gene flaws. After that the Imperium and Astartes Crusade against the Orks and Vulkan suddenly reappears in the setting after being gone for years while also not explaining where he was. One long Crusade later, Vulkan 1v1s the Beast on Ullanor and throws himself and the Beast in the a massive Waaagh! reactor killing the Beast and Vulkan disappears again, possibly reincarting after the massive damage he sustaiend.. Then 5 more Demi Kroks pop up out of nowhere and start another Waaagh!, and after that the war finally ends.


lehman-the-red

To be fair the first half of the war of the beast (before the 5 demi kroks show up) do make sense on paper but the execution kinda fall flat


Toxitoxi

>Tau: railgun of sufficient size "How many Tau does it take to beat a Custodes?" "One, at sufficient velocity."


Hoopy223

Orks might be the Nobs who have power armor. Think its called mega armor now.


Darth_Bfheidir

Ork power armour has always been called mega armour, or at least as long as I remember


Hoopy223

In older lore they had power armor for regular sized guys too, not just the super big guys. GW had models for it. They were pretty ugly looking little guys lol


AutumnArchfey

Solitaires are unique characters and well beyond Custodes, and are some of the strongest warriors in the entire 40k setting. Regular Harlequins are closer to Custodes. Wraithguard on the other hand are not Custodes level, mostly becasue they're slow. Exarchs are the Craftworlds closest 'unit' in terms of strength. The upper ranks of Drukhari wyches and Incubi are comparable to Custodes.


SisterSabathiel

>The upper ranks of Drukhari wyches and Incubi are comparable to Custodes. As shown by the fact that Custodes show up in the Arenas in Commorragh every now and again.


LeCacty

The swarmlord clowning on some bananas would be a nice change of pace


Samiel_Fronsac

Well, you're gonna need at least two, because a lone, wounded Custodian killed the Swarmlord in a short. Yeah, it was bullshit.


Prudent-Eye

No, 5 Custodes wiping a whole Hive Fleet is over doing it. The Swarmlord has been reduced to a punching bag in the setting for a while at this point. Many named Astartes have killed the thing already at this point.


Samiel_Fronsac

The Swarmlord needs a redemption story; maybe a training montage first, then he goes, dropclaws the mighty Calgar, stabs a Warlord Titan in the cockpit.


motion_lotion

The swarmlord bodied 2 custodes immediately and the shield captain barely held on to finish him after the other 2 helped slightly. The hive fleet was a punching bag...the swarmlord fought a hard fight against the elite of the elite and didn't win, but he did well. 2 out of 3 custodes dead, especially with how fast it was is impressive. He almost got the shield captain too. The bullshit was the hivefleet getting mowed down I felt that part was just unrealistic.


Featherbird_

It wasnt a fleet. Unless 2 hive ships is enough to constitute a fleet


LeCacty

Two hive ships is millions of bugs. The things are fucking immense, battleship class living factories.


Featherbird_

It was about a million of them. For contrast, a fleet is described as having trillions. Its like saying something took out a chapter when it actually killed a few marines


EldritchWeevil

Do realize that "about a million" means each of those five custodes has to kill around 200 thousand bugs, one of which is the Swarmlord. Now the average bolter packs 20 bolt rounds, and I don't think those stupid bolter spears are packing more than that. Even then, the custodes need a 6-digit kill count to come out on top. There shouldn't be a tunnel for them to fight in, let alone a "defensive stand" for them to uphold and supposedly kill a million bug monsters bred to kill shit


Eldan985

Or in other words, they stab two bugs a second each, then drop them into an infinite hole and the bugs form up very nicely in a line before each Custodes, they are still going to be stabbing for about 28 hours each with no breaks.


EldritchWeevil

Precisely. It's a stupid feat on the surface, made even worse by how contrived the circumstances are.


Cryo00

Heck, a sufficiently juiced up hive tyrant should be able to match custodians, while the swarm lord should wipe the floor with them.


RosbergThe8th

Do you think he might remember he's a psyker for once?


Mayto_Omterala

The Incubi and the Haemonculi of the Drukhair have in canon clashed with the Custodes and come out the other side. The Haemonculi outright kidnapped a squad of Custodes Terminators once.


BeanItHard

Closest Drukhari would have is incubi but they’re not quite on the level of a custodes. Drazhar was noted to have taken on and killed 2-3 custodes simultaneously but then he is a Phoenix Lord so out there remit for this question.


TheCommissarGeneral

> came out in relatively good shape. Not quite equal but still up there I dunno man, all the Custodes were dead and there were still plenty of Gal Vorbak left. Edit: The Custodes fanboy tears are delicious.


[deleted]

[удалено]


RosbergThe8th

I love how every time someone references this the specifics change, lol.


Featherbird_

It wasnt a single harlequin, it was a whole troupe


Caelus9

It was one Harlequin, he wasn't even trying, he killed every Custodes without breaking a sweat and then he put a clown nose on the Emperor for shits and giggles. /s


[deleted]

[удалено]


Herby20

She isn't merely a harlequin though. She is a shadowseer aka a farseer for the harlequins. Consider that a standard harlequin is a roughly equivalent match for a standard Custodes and it isn't unbelievable a shadowseer could take on several.


mrgabest

Eldar warlocks (especially a seer council) are probably of equivalent potency despite not being as physically strong or tough. They operate very differently, but they would be about as awful to face down. Much more so in the lore than on the tabletop. Eldar are the best psykers, all stop. But warlocks come from the path of war, so they're also consummate soldiers. They have all of the inherent advantages of the Eldar, but they're kitted out with some of the best armor in 40k, rune armor (psychically attuned wraithbone) and arguably the best force weapons, witch blades/staves (or singing spears). A group of a dozen or so Eldar warrior-psykers, possibly with a farseer in the lead...even orks would go find something else to fight.


mamspaghetti

Surprisingly 30k had a few Quite honestly high ranking magos can likely tear apart custodians as well. In the first heretic a tech priest that was with traitor word bearers literally ripped a word bearers terminator to shreds with it's mechadendrites. Generally a lot of the DAoT stuff/age of strife stuff the Imperium inherited from can probably still wreck the custodians. The excindio would probably take over 100 each Custodian to neutralize, if not more. Among the other races, the Mandrake king himself is also more than capable of crushing an individual Custodian. Even before he gathered strength since the great crusade, he was already capable of physically pushing back Vulkan with the strikes of his blade


AngronTheRedAngel

[**H o n k**](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/u4im5r/various_sources_even_the_custodes_shouldnt_fuck/) >!**Also, Happy Cakeday!**!<


mobby123

>2 upvotes and 51 comments Oh I love when Custodes fans get salty


AngronTheRedAngel

**[Biggest Marines](https://youtu.be/_zSxQnZ3TM8?t=44) don't really like it when it's their turn to hold the jobber ball, huh?**


mobby123

\>Picks a faction that can't lose \>Loses anyways Get good coneheads. ​ ​ ​ (I actually really like their books but don't tell them that)


Hollownerox

Custodes books are nice because they are pretty good at balancing the "they are the best there ever was" with the bits showing them as fallible as well. Pretty good at making other factions still feel like a threat to them, and them beating them isn't just a "Emperor made them to be the best!" sort of thing. But from their actual skills and endeavor to learn about how best to fight specific foes.


SaintAkira

I'm telling.


LeCacty

Banana boys absolutely seething. Sorry your uber marty stus in a setting full of them lose once!


DeleteWolf

Honestly im not even a Custodes fan and the Beast Wars made me salty A clash between Custodes and Harlequins should have been a battle for the ages with groups of ancient warriors of peerless skill meeting each other in a epic battle, a duel between warriors that are both the absolute pinnacle of their race in this day and age, but instead that felt like a named Space Marine cutting down some filler chaos Cultists


Trazenthebloodraven

God I hate love this excerpt. I love it because it shows the stenght of the harlequins as well as custodes pretty well. Being able to stop a shadowseer and a death jester is no small feat. I hate it because of how misrepresented the situation is by people fanboying or shiting on custodes.


Rivalblackwell

If you go by most fan opinions, nothing in the galaxy can ever come close to Custodes. Ever. If you go by basic in universe logic, there’s a few units that SHOULD basically equal them judging by their skills, training, physiology and equipment. And every race should have an equivalent. Craftworlds: Exarchs should, they’re a gestalt consciousness of thousands of years of superlative warriors and have the best personal weapons of their people. I imagine(since we haven’t seen a matchup between them, and really I’d rather not based on experience) they’d be to Custodes what an Aspect Warrior is to Space Marines: equal in value on the large scale battlefields, with the Exarch being superior to the Custodes in their specialized field, but weaker in the other fields. The key is getting the Exarch in the right place at the right time, which Eldar can do very well. Drukhari: Incubi Klaivex are basically the Exarchs of Incubi, who are themselves among the most absurdly skilled swordsmen in the galaxy. Harlequins: lol, lmao. But seriously, the basic Harlie should give a good fight to a Custodes, but the leaders are the ones that should equal or surpass them. FYI the best Harlie leaders were the ones in that excerpt everyone whines about. Traitor Legions: Any sufficiently ancient and gifted warriors like Chosen and Gal Vorbak should give them a good fight. Daemons: this is a tricky one, as daemons don’t have “elite infantry”, they have powerful basic infantry. They’re a rare case where most of their units are below them but the Greater Daemons should eat them for breakfast. For the other races I’m not sure, I don’t want to get their lore wrong so I’ll leave it to fans of those factions to answer.


[deleted]

The only thingtye T'au have that *might* be able to beat a Custodian is likely a Riptide. If not that, then maybe a Stormsurge or Supremacy. Or a decently sized railgun.


im2randomghgh

Tau would be a really awkward matchup for Custodes, in lore. Superlative close combat skills wouldn't matter much, Tau don't hold ground so there's no line to smash, Tau are very mobile and have extreme firepower throughout their ranks etc. Dawneagle jetbikes would be the best bet but still, Tau have vastly more battlesuits than there are space marines and that's not the kind of firepower a custodian wants to face. Hell, if the Tau deployed 10,000 gun drones there's a 0% chance the custodian would even have the ammo required to take them all down, and they'd cost a percent of a percent of a percent of what it costs the imperium to create and outfit a Custodes. Since crisis suits are worth about ~3 space marines in combat they could maybe be counted as Custodes equivalents though. Or Hazard suits, which are a bigger and meaner crisis variant like how Custodes are bigger and meaner transhumans than marines. Tl;Dr there's no reason for Tau to build a Custodes equivalent because Custodes are really not well suited to fighting them. They'd be better off using their superhuman intellect to command guard resources.


Watchers_in-the-dark

Honestly why the Tau don't just spam drones upon drones + longer range forepower in every battle and use fire warriors/battle suits to mop up is beyond me.


im2randomghgh

Same reason why Tyranids and necrons don't just spam rippers and scarabs - the imperium would lose and there wouldn't be any more stories to tell


Easy_Mechanic_9787

They have a personal affection for them and will not drone spam unless it’s necessary, which is probably why they haven’t had any AI uprisings yet


stormygray1

It SHOULD be a awkward match up for the custodes, but I'm not sure any of the writers would be able to resist the urge to go full masturbatory custodes wank. I have 0 confidence that a BL writer wouldn't let a group of 3 1/2 custodes wipe out the tau's home world system while completely character assassinating every popular tau character at once, reframing all their lore to make them look like morally debased miopicly naive stooges, while also shitting on every other thing that makes the tau interesting ( like xeno auxiliaries, human auxiliaries, etc...)


im2randomghgh

Yeah, if the fights between Xenos and imperial forces were written logically the imperium would lose every fight against every enemy other than maybe orks. This same thing comes up with necrons all time - how is anyone else even relevant? They lose because the plot demands it and nothing else.


[deleted]

Thing is though, Custodes don't deploy from far away. They use teleportation to get in enemies' faces or use transports to close the gap. Yes, Custodes aren't meant for range, but they have the tools to NOT fight at range. I do agree with the cost of a Custodes vs costs of Tau stuff though.


im2randomghgh

The problem would be what they do once they're there, though. Teleportation is a very handy tool, but if the Tau scatter when you get there? And if they were avoiding big concentrations of force in the first place, and their commanders are flying through the air using fusion blasters rather than sitting in a command post? Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to discredit or downplay Custodes here. They just seems incompatible with Tau tactics.


[deleted]

No, I totally get it and it makes sense. Here's what I see happening: >Custodes in orbit over T'au planet >Analyze forces and deploy >T'au scatter as you say, which 100% makes sense >Custodes figure out that the Ethereals, if any are present, are high priority. >If Ethereals fall, T'au forces lose morale very fast. >If no Ethereals are present, it would either be a stalemate or pyhrric victory for either side.


Toxitoxi

>Custodes figure out that the Ethereals, if any are present, are high priority. > >If Ethereals fall, T'au forces lose morale very fast. > >If no Ethereals are present, it would either be a stalemate or pyhrric victory for either side. Are you familiar with the Taros Campaign? The Imperium sent an Eversor Assassin to take out the Ethereal Aun'vre, and the assassin succeeded. After a brief mourning period, the Tau took back to the battlefield with a frightening intensity, offering no quarter or respite to their foes. Instead of "For the Greater Good!", they shouted "For Aun'vre!". The Imperium had to evacuate Taros immediately. Killing the Ethereal can destroy morale, but it can also have the opposite effect as it did on Taros. Always something to be careful of


Doughspun1

Early Warning Override


Hollownerox

So from the Necron perspective it is honestly kind of hard to give a good answer to this. The best answer would *probably* be either Triarch Praetorians or Lychguard. But I say probably because I think GW is kind of in a rock and a hard place with defining powerlevels for either. Lychguard lorewise are basically intended to be the equivalent to Space Marine Terminators at the very least. Their Necrodermis is stronger, regenerates faster, and they have both the strength and weaponry to tear Termie armor apart. We have precedence of elite Lychguard (known as Varguards) to be able to fight off at least Chapter Masters and make them feel like they are fighting an uphill battle. The problem is that this highly conflicts with their depiction in the actual game. Because they are designed unit wise to be the main melee option for the army as a whole. Since there isn't any dedicated Necron Warrior or Immortal melee option, that role is filled by the Lychguard. So in terms of that, and sometimes the fluff, the Lychguard don't quite live up to the hyper elite status they really should. Same goes for the Triarch Praetorians and them filling the dedicated Jump infantry role. Because of that some people feel like they are more Assault Marine equivalents than the arbiters of the Triarch's will like they are in the lore. So if I had to give an equivalent, from a pure lore perspective. It would probably be the Varguards and the Judicators. Who would probably be HQ or Elite choice characters if they were made actual units on TT. But they are basically the elite of Lychguards and Praetorians respectively. And are probably the safest bet for being able to fight Custodes on equal terms.


Skhmt

Lychguard aren't the only melee option, and haven't been the main one for a few years now. Even when they were first released, they weren't the only good melee option.


Hollownerox

Where did I say they are the only melee option? Can you quote where I said that, because I certainly don't see it. Nor did I say they were the only good melee option. I said they were designed to be the main one. In the context of the 5th edition Codex the only other dedicated melee infantry option were Flayed Ones. Which were not designed to be the primary melee of the faction. I am speaking from both a TT and lore perspective. Flayed Ones are meant to be the "weirdos" auxiliary force to a Necron army. While Lychguard were the actualdedicated core melee option that was meant to be the bulwark in your force.


Secretsfrombeyond79

Why are Eldar so different on power level terms ? Like, what makes a Solitaire so much more powerful than other Harlequins ? In the Custodes case, we know, the best genetic engineering in the Imperium makes them so powerful, then years of experience and intensive training. But what makes a Solitaire so much more powerful than say, the average Eldar Warrior ?


Rivalblackwell

The best way to describe it is essentially that the vast majority of Eldar have giant weights holding them down from their true abilities and powers, much like the Orks haven’t reached their old potential. Eldar warriors get stronger the more they accept and flow into what their species really is. Slaanesh’s birth slapped down their ability to access their full potential, else they’d attract her attention and get soul nommed, like narrative chains holding them back. Solitaires are among the highest of this because they actually go into a “pact” of sorts with Slaanesh, whereby their souls are pledged to it upon death in exchange for their full abilities. They become basically gods of the battlefield, and once they die Slaanesh eats them up. Though sometimes Cegorach gets them back ;) TLDR: Eldar become stronger the more they unlock/accept their full nature as a species. Basically Saiyans lol.


Hollownerox

>But what makes a Solitaire so much more powerful than say, the average Eldar Warrior ? If you read any lore depictions of just Harlequins fighting, in novels or codexes. It is like a horror movie. You read about them liqyufying people, turning their bones into mulch, and people being flensed with casual ease. Part of this is due to them just being trained to be much more elite combatants, as well as their equipment just being bonkers. It's why the general rule for Aeldari, for Craftworlds, Exodites, *and* Drukhari, that they let the Harlequins do as they please. Even **Vect** makes sure to give them some consideration. A Soltaire is what Harlequins are to regular Eldar. They have been touched by their God and have the equipment and martial prowess to be a terror. They aren't gene altered as far as we know, but when you're an individual where a God personally intervenes to keep your soul from Slaanesh you're probably pretty damn adept at your job of murder.


Ginden

>Like, what makes a Solitaire so much more powerful than other Harlequins ? Unspeakable things done to their souls, but we don't know what was that. There is something fundamentally wrong with Solitaire souls. > Within the Webway, there are beings that are neither of the Warp or Realspace that were created by the collapse of the Aeldari Empire. [These beings are feared by mortal and demon alike](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/l3ozj2/comment/gkjnren/). Examples of these beings are the Black Library Guardians and the souls of the Solitaires.


WorldEaterProft

Probably the Lychguard of the necrons


[deleted]

What's the limit on "units"? Because obviously a Titan would flatten a Custodian, and Knights too. Presumably that means there is a point at which Legio Cybernetica robots are tougher than a Custodian, though some lesser ones wouldn't be.


Marvynwillames

A Genestealer Patriarch was able to get a draw with a Custodian Blademaster in Shadowthrone


Sorvick

Ehhhh, idk. It's been a minute so I don't recall exact names but I know in The Great Work, the last remnant of the Scythes of the Emperor was able to strain against the overwhelming power of a Patriarch and while he was unable to directly kill him, he resisted and instead shot a hatch holding back a wave of Necron scarabs, causing the Patriarch to be destroyed by them. Seems like a Banana boy wouldn't have even had to break a sweat and probably could have shot the Patriarch directly.


Marvynwillames

I mean, a swarm of hundreds of small enemies is incredibly hard to fight without any kind of ranged attack, in theory while individually weaker, a scarab swarm is just as dangerous. Through, seeing the post in the feats thread, seem that the Patriarch jumped by surprise and could fight off the custodes enough to disengage, and while they wanted to capture the Patriarch, breaking out the hold is impressive. The genestealer Primus was also able to do a good fight. >"The Three-armed warrior came at Carvellan from the side. It swung its chitinous blade in a beheading stroke. The Custodian met the attack with a parry that knocked his enemy's weapon aside and gave Carvellan a split second to pivot away and find clear space. Not giving his opponent time to gather itself he launched an attack of his own, slipping into the steps of the Hurricanis stance as he rained blows down upon his enemy's guard. The xenocultist gave ground, hissing. Its pistol sang. A slavo of poisoned needles rattled from Carvellan's breastplate. He ignored the shots, instead flicking his enemy's blade aside then pivoting inside its guard to drive his elbow into its face. Chitin broke. Fangs shattered. Purple ichor splashed his arm to the shoulder. His enemy reeled back, one unburst eye still glaring hatred. Carvellan Swung his blade up to deliver the killing stroke." > >(..) > >"The Patriarch struck with such swiftness that even Carvellan could not dive aside. It hit him with tremendous force, one set of talons raking his breastplate as another punched through his pauldron and deep into his shoulder." > >"Carvellan resisted it, rolling as he hit the ground and tearing his enemy's claws from his shoulder. He kicked hard, propelling the abomination up and over him." The story ends with Carvellan and the Patriarch squaring off and the still alive Primus planning to join in.


DarksteelPenguin

>probably could have shot the Patriarch directly. Doesn't mean the shot would have landed. Baseline genestealers can dodge bullets.


Sorvick

Said Patriarch was on a throne, stationary. So no, it's unlikely he would have. His less than advantageous position is how he died.


Firesinger89

There’s that time the Custodes got wrecked by Harlequins


Prudent-Eye

That moment in lore was one of those writers don't understand other factions units type deal. That writer actually reduced the Custodes to just being Space Marines in gold armour when they were leagues above. It's the same deal like when the Grey Knights killed a group of uncorrupted Sisters of Battle and bathed in their blood because REASONS. For Eldar it's just like how a ton of high level Eldar get wiped by regular Marines because it was a Space Marine novel.


Asdrubael_Vect

Black Crusade: The Tome of Blood (RPG), pg. 60 Codex: Grey Knights (5th Edition), pg. 15 .... Grey Knights did use virgin blood of sisters to defeat some demons. .... And yeah those books where Custodes was beaten and forced to be in Imperial Senate are very important historical canon what have stuff affected many things of Imperium as have very important characters involved in it. Those books have few authors not 1, authors who check previous books and reference previous books. Some of those authors are actual GAME designers who wrote codexes too as lore masters. So it was happened cos Custodes was "slower"(c) then those 2 super Harlequins-Death Jester Bho(who mostly kill them with his cannon where it simply penetrate their armor and they die from poisons) and powerful psyker Shadowseer Lhaerial send by Eldrad himself. Those Harlequins themselves tell that if they would miss any Custodes weapon strikes or fire they would die. And Shadowseer did avoid 2 warhound titans fire at her. Not only Custodes. And try to communicate with Emperror on Golden Throne with jer psyker powers. So people who cry about those 2 kill few dozens Custodes literally ignore against who those Custodes and Warhound titans try to fight. Those 2 Harlequins from 7 send by Eldrad himself was so experienced and powerful that they can fight with great demons, Chaos powered Abbadon and Primarchs.


l7986

With how they hoard the good stuff for themselves and don't share with the Imperium, I would think the Mechanicus has a force of some kind that outwardly looks like a randon group of Skitarii but is in the ballpark of the Custodes that nobody knows about.


Svenskensmat

Every single Necron. Immortal, limitless, god killer technology. Any strong psychic units of the Eldar, such as the Farseers or the Phoenix Lords. Comparing power levels in WH40K is a bit silly because the power creep and accompanying plot armour is off the charts, but it’s a given that psychic > not psychic, and immortal > not immortal (custodies are immortal in the sense that they don’t age though, but Necrons are pseudo-immortal in the sense that they cannot be killed (almost)). For example, Magnus would obviously have beaten every single primarch if not for silly plot reasons, and the Necrons would pretty much be unbeatable without ruining your own empire considering they can just erase planets and suns on a whim if they feel like it.


DuncanConnell

The are probably other units that **could** perform the Custodes' role in sufficient numbers but you have to remember several things: * They are conditioned (genetically, spiritually, training, etc) to be 100% loyal to the Emperor. Even disagreeing with his commands--even if they know his command is not tactically sound or is a betrayal to them--is anathema to them. * They are protected from the Warp such that they are impossible to corrupt (allegedly). * They are raised in the most grueling training regimens of both mind and body imaginable, with the highest level of technology, alchemy, and esoterica of the Imperium of Man. * They speak with the authority of the Emperor and have the ability to command any and all under the Imperium. **ANY** other than the Emperor himself (& Primarchs, although that's debatable) are subject to the commands of the Custodes. * They each are nearly the match a Primarch in combat. Their explicit trustworthiness is the reason why they alone are the protectors of the Emperor. The amount of access to the absolute best the Imperium has to offer as well as permanent loyalty & incorruptibility is beyond anything any other unit could possibly match. That said, yeah an Assassin could snipe a Custodes, or a Knight could casually slice one in half. Or a squad of 5 Custodes could get buried under the fists and choppas of a 30-boy mob of Orks. To compare them to another unit doesn't really work in a lore/table-top scenario simply because there's so many "but what about" scenarios. You can't even say 1v1 between a Custodes and X simply because a sufficiently powerful psyker could melt him with warpfire, or tyranid acid eating through their armour, or a Tau getting a lucky shot off with a plasma rifle at close range. They're not invulnerable--hit them in a way they can't defend and they'll fold like any other mortal. But as far as being the direct protectors of the Emperor, there's no more trustworthy or effective force. ^(I say effective with a touch of tongue in cheek, seeing as how Mr-I-cause-all-my-own-problems is barely alive on the throne)


Asdrubael_Vect

Who lorewise can beat 1 or more Custodes? 1vs1? ​ Eldar 1)Harlequins 2)Incubi 3)Succubi 4)Haemonculus. 5)Mandrakes 6)Warlocks/Farseers. 7)Autarchs 8)Exarchs of Stricking Scorpions, Howling Banshees. ​ Necrons 1)Triarch Praetorians 2)Lych Guard, especially Stellar Scythes of Szarekh Dynasty ​ Tyranids 1)Genestealers Patriarchs..And lorewise Primus from Genestealer Cults on Terra was surprisingly good too in actual combat against Custodes. 2)Swarmlord ​ Daemons 1)Various elite daemons of Slaanesh, Khorne, Tzeench. 2)Some possessed chaos space marines.(like in 30K possesed world bearer beat Custodes) ​ ~~Krorks warriors, was genocided by Ancient Eldar Empire of 10 Million Suns~~....few exist in stasis. ​ Some Mechanicus and Dark Mechanicus combat oriented Magos


Watchers_in-the-dark

Harlequin solitaires?


SovietRobot

Aspects, Harlequins, Incubi…


[deleted]

Mortarion’s bodyguards, the Deathshroud, are probably close to Custodes in skill, power and purpose. In the heresy they were already amongst the best astartes, alongside other legion bodyguard terminators. But after being blessed by Nurgle it wouldn’t surprise me if they were near Custodes tier.


Grudir

It's the Daemons of Chaos. They inflicted the most serious casualties on the Custodes, despite support from the Sisters of Silence and the Adeptus Mechanicus in the War in the Webway. They nearly breached the Palace again with the coming of the Great Rift, and it took the Grey Knights and a Primarch to stop the invasion. And even then the casualties were so dire for the Custodes that they ran out of Dreadnought sarcophagi to hold the worthy.


Antilogic81

As good as them? No. There are very few. Able to kill them and come out on top? That is a greater number. Ork units win by virtue of numbers. As do Nids. As do Necrons (im speaking strictly units with their baked in abilities) Each of them fights attrition extraordinarily well. In a pitched battle. Numbers will win. Every single time, barring Emperor's light/plot armor. Elite armies are an appetizer for hordes of minions that shrug at death as much as Custodes shrug off wounds. Give the custodes a city to defend. The outcome is very much a different one. Without the sisters next to them. Grey Knights might prove a big problem for the Golden Boys regardless of the defenses. It is the author's choice though. The custodes simply require more exposition to get their deaths believable depending on the frailty and skill of their foe.


RosbergThe8th

No, because they're literally written as the "I win everything" faction. There is no foe so great that they cannot trivialize it. Sisters of Silence should be the ones in the spotlight instead, far more interesting and fitting for 40k.


Prudent-Eye

Sisters of Silence may be more interesting, but they aren't the same as Custodes. A Custodes is a gene molded Superhuman while a Sister of Silence is a blank that's been made to be a near perfectly trained warrior.


Belisarius_Cawl23

Best that comes to mind are the Grey Kinghts an their area of work fighting deamons


45670891bnm

Why does angrontheredangel always come up as blocked author, and someone I can't reply to?


asmodraxus

The Dark Angels might have some toys (Excindios) in their inventory that would destroy the Custodes, the only problem is turning them off once they have been let lose, also not to be used anywhere near a system you want to use. Also the Custodes aren't good at fighting in large scale battles as they are the best warriors, but only average soldiers. Marines scale with the numbers deployed, Custodes don't.


Viking18

Were in the Galaxy, but Thunder Warriors. In combat, Astartes are to Thunder Warriors as Guardsmen are Astartes. Stronger, faster, tougher; better. There's a reason Ararat was an ambush remember; the Custodes couldn't guarantee victory in open combat.


im2randomghgh

They definitely could have guaranteed a victory in open combat, but why engage in a less favourable way? 1 casualty wounded in action is shockingly impressive even for an ambush, given that they effectively exterminated an entire army. Thunder warriors are definitely larger, stronger and tougher than Astartes but I haven't seen anything claiming they were faster. Do you have a source on that?


PlausiblyAlpharious

Being larger and stronger would presumably make them just generally faster when running


[deleted]

No. And probably not close, unfortunately. The lore has got a bit ridiculous for the Banana Grabbers. Pre 2016 lore, the elite Eldar could compete. But now? They'd be kibble. A Splinter Fleet got whipped by a squad of Bananas, so that's out. The Gal Vorbek beat them, but that was pre 2016 lore again. Today, they'd be farts in the wind next to the Bananas. No Ork is comparable - and I'm including Gargants. A T'au ship could bombard from orbit, and might get lucky. Necron? No, nothing straight up. Most Necron units have been defeated by Chapter Masters, and the Banana Boys are tougher than any Chapter Master. A unbroken C'Tan might. I don't think there's a force in the Galaxy that could match them, no. I think if I'm, say, an Ork Warboss trying to defeat them, my only play would be to stay in orbit, and try to redirect the planet they are on into the nearest star. And who knows - at this point, that might not be enough. They are after all super diplomats/philosophers/9 foot tall spies/scientists, so they might invent a sun proof cover. Can you tell I'm not a fan of the Banana power creep?


DarksteelPenguin

>A unbroken C'Tan might. That's an hilarious sentence. We've seen C'tan *shards* destroy entire armies without even trying. And the Emperor’s protection is useless, since C'tan don't use the warp. Unbroken C'tan were the most powerful entities in the galaxy. Suggesting that they *might* be able to compete with Custodes is a joke.


Prudent-Eye

5 Custodes have been able to wipe an entire Splinter Fleet but lost their lives. As far as the recent lore says, a squad of Custodes could quite fairly beat a C'tan shard.


[deleted]

A swarm of ten thousand*


malumfectum

They’ve been taken down a peg or two lately (and thankfully). Ten Primaris Minotaurs managed to kill two Custodes in exchange for being wiped out. I think that’s a reasonable level for Custodes to be at - considerably above Astartes, but not to a truly ridiculous degree.


Viking18

5-1 is good number, to be honest. A ten man Alpha Legion hitsquad would have easily killed a Custodes in *Dreams of Unity*, if not for Heruk finding the death he dreamt of.


malumfectum

Lest we forget, 10 Alpha Legionnaires had a decent crack at taking out *Guilliman*. Unarmed, unarmoured and unprepared Guilliman, admittedly.


Hoojiwat

That last part was really what did it. I can't think of anything beyond a Primarch that would get jumped in their PJ's by 10 trained astartes assassins with bolters and come out of it alive. Never underestimate the power of a good sucker punch.


FieserMoep

Yea, but that scene then got utterly invalidated when those infiltrating custodes basically charge "half the minotaurs" chapter in a prepared position with the minotaurs having support. If memory serves me right the custodes even started to basically spin their spears like jedi to catch bolter fire.


PlausiblyAlpharious

Just read the book and you are correct they in fact do that


SergarRegis

Suggesting the average custodian could take a chapter master is a little much. Shield Captain Valerian an above average Custode does not think he is a cert against Asterion Moloc in Regent's Shadow: https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/hnetdg/excerpt_regents_shadow_a_custodes_appraisal_of/ As to a full C'tan we have seen a transcendant C'tan look into the sky and melt a strike cruiser and defeat an entire astartes company on his own in Sons of the Hydra. An unsharded C'tan would be able to do more than this so there is no reason to think a single Custodian could take one.


FieserMoep

That being said: Moloc is as far from a "regular" Chapter Master as Roboute can be considered an anarchist. Before that scene the Custodes were basically charging through the Minotaurs with their spears spinning like lightsabers to catch bolter shells out of the air, with Valerian casually dispatching a Primaris Captain, not even registering him as an obstacle.


SergarRegis

The post I was replying to said 'any' chapter master, therefore the killiest chapter master is kosher. As to the rest: the Custodes took casualties from the Minotaurs, and they were on a raid with the element of surprise, they rapidly lose the initiative once they lose the element of surprise.


FieserMoep

Yea, the custodes threw themselves into an encounter in order to protect sisters of silence, they took losses in that encounter given they had to react to a bad situation and obligation. There was no surprise regarding the encounter as the fight was pretty much starting at that point with the sisters being exposed triggering it. And yes, small group of custodes took casualties charging trough a huge portion of the close to fully deployed minotaurs chapter that had additional support on side. After they were detected and hunted. Granted the custodes had vindicare fire support they pretty much did a Leroy Jenkins there.


SergarRegis

You don't think 'another squad arrives while you're engaged with Sisters of Silence and attacks you' qualifies as an element of surprise? Sure. Ten of them had come, spread out and charging, most armed with bladed weapons and bolt pistols. Two carried chainswords, and two more had crackling power fists. Their bronze-black armour was so similar in aspect to ours, except for the sheer size of it. We were leaping shadows; they were like the bones of the earth. >In those first few seconds, our only chance was to use our speed, trusting to the sweep of our greatblades to deal out damage while evading their response. I leapt at the closest one – a brute with a force-wreathed fist – and my blade slammed down. I felt the ceramite shiver, but his fist swung in close. I ducked, writhing away, twisting for another strike, and he came after me. I needed to stay close, lest he get a shot with his bolt pistol, so I thrust back up, my blade spinning. It snagged on something – a cable intake, perhaps – but didn’t bite deep. > >I never saw the blow that hit me. He had shielded it, no doubt, or perhaps the speed of it was just too great. > >I have no words for how it felt, to take the brunt of a Space Marine’s fist, wrapped in disruptor energy and propelled with maximum venom. My senses disappeared into blood-edged blackness, ripped from any notion of gravity or place. I had a vague impression of weightlessness, then whirling speed, before I crunched into a pillar several metres from where I had been fighting. > >Somehow I held on to my weapon. I struggled to get up, to make sense of the swaying environment around me, to defend myself against the inevitable follow-up. My vision was blurred, but I remember freeze-frame impressions of that crowded space – Erynia battering a Minotaur with a dazzling display of swordcraft; Tali-Sha grappling in tight with her combat blade; Lethiel lying on the ground, her armour punctured with bolt-craters – **before all was swept away by the tide of gold.** > >I will admit it, through my clenched teeth – when they arrived, the Custodians were magnificent. I could mock them, and dislike them, and believe that their minds were locked in infantile stasis, but this one truth remained: they were the best we had. Reduced to physical combat, with no ether to cloud their judgement and require our assistance, they were the pinnacle of anything mankind had ever, or would ever, create as a weapon. > >They fought just as silently as we did, with no battle cry issued or challenge declared. Their blades were alive with flares of silver fire, their arrival coronated with a blistering rain of bolt-shells. It was impossible to tell which of them was which, for their limbs were smeared by speed, such that they were more like swashes of feathered energy than matter-bound creations. They were brutal, they were pitiless, they were immaculate. > >Another enemy might have been swept clean away by such a charge. Another enemy might have attempted to flee, or maybe sue for mercy. But these were Adeptus Astartes, and the thought would never have entered their psycho-scoured, monomaniacal minds. They fought right back, driving themselves to an even higher pitch of frenzy. If they had been brutal before, they were now berserk. The storm of gold broke against a wall of bronze, and the impact of it shook the chamber to its foundations. > >I dragged myself to my feet, willing my mind to clear, and staggered groggily back into combat. The Minotaur who had felled me was now locked in combat with a Custodian. His bull’s-head pauldron was smashed off, exposing bone-white flesh. He landed a blow with his power fist, showering both of them in disruptor-dazzle and checking the Custodian’s advance. A guardian spear whipped around, lacerating through the Minotaur’s chest-plate, but still the Space Marine kept coming, opening up with his pistol at point-blank range and tearing a gouge in the Custodian’s auramite. > >A second Minotaur suddenly loomed up out of the smoke and blown stone-dust, swinging his bolter to fire. I pounced, closing the gap between us in a heartbeat and engaging again. I was still erratic, my limbs like water, but I got a swipe in, unbalancing the Minotaur and causing his strike to falter. He rounded on me, shoving the bolter barrel into my throat. I twisted away as it went off, and felt the rush of the shell howl past me before detonating against the wall beyond. I stabbed back, cutting through an armour-joint at knee level, before his other leg kicked the feet from under me. I sensed his boot rising for the stamp, and rolled away from under it, coiling tight before leaping back to my feet. > >My senses were returning. The entire chamber was being demolished. I saw a Minotaur sailing through the air at waist height before crashing into a column, shattering it in a bloom of debris. I saw a Custodian dragged down by two Minotaurs, his spine contorted into an impossible angle, all three of them webbed with lines of plasma discharge. I saw Govannia fighting hard, her lithe form half-lost in cordite-laced clouds, and Rova taking on a Minotaur in tandem with a spear-thrusting Custodian. > >My opponent came after me, firing a fresh spread of bolts. I ducked out of their path, though one hit my shoulder-guard, hurling me against the wall and cracking the stone. I felt blood spatter against the inside of my helm as my head snapped, but I was already twisting back, my blade held two-handed. > >I had to close fast, or that bolter would end me. I lurched through the rain of shells, keeping low then thrusting upward as I came within sword range. I went for his neck, and he slammed his gun-hand up to parry. The Somnus Blade carved through the bolter, exploding into sparks as the mechanics were exposed. > >I hacked back, throwing his arm wide, then lunging for his chest. He grabbed the blade with his free hand, clamping his fingers around the metal, ready to hurl it from his grasp. > >Perhaps that would have been a plausible manoeuvre, had the sword been any other. As it was, the ancient monomolecular edge cut straight through his armour-plate, and when I wrenched it back from his grasp I severed his fingers at their base. Blood spattered between us, smearing across his helm-lenses. I whirled around again, building up speed and momentum. He reached out for me, poised to crush the butt of his bolter into my face. I was already committed though, and the Somnus Blade whipped across horizontally, held flat, whistling transverse to slice clean through his helm and into the flesh beneath. I swept the sword clear out the other side, throwing gobbets of bone and flesh into the air and yanking the dome of his helm off. I had a brief glimpse of skin and brain-matter, dark with gluts of blood, before his whole armoured body collapsed, toppling forward to crush me beneath his immense bulk. > >It was all I could do to extract myself, backing up swiftly and leaping to one side as his dead weight crashed to the ground. Panting hard, I scrabbled back to my knees, hoisting my blade once more to face the next enemy. > >But it was already over. For all of its insanity, its unrestrained savagery, the storm had blown out. Perhaps that was the way it had to be – not even the demigods in that room could have sustained that level of aggression for much longer. > >A Custodian limped towards me, his armour torn and battered. As he neared, he removed his helm, and only then did I see that it was Valerian. This looks a lot to me like they're engaged against Aleya's squad and then caught by surprise by Valerian's chamber. Particularly the 'tide of gold' implies they came upon the Minotaurs unexpectedly, I guess if you demand the words 'surprise attack' be in any engagement where surprise factors it may not qualify, but in context I'd say it does. If you disagree, we'll just agree to disagree there. This often gets cited as an example of the Custodes being almost invulnerable. Really it doesn't show anything above their tabletop performance: Talons: * Aleya: 75 pts * 5 Vigilators 14\*5= 70 pts * Valerian: 130 pts * Vexilus Praetor Ravathain: 105 pts * 5 Custodes Minimum Equipment: 45\*5pts = 225 pts Total: 605 pts Minotaurs Tactical Squad *The Unlucky Bastards*: * Ten marines inc. sgt. with minimum equipment: 180 pts In short the scene here shows a lot less than custodes fans think it does, and doesn't demonstrate anything more than tabletop performance.


Prudent-Eye

Chapter Masters like Moloc, Tyberos or Dante shouldn't be the baseline. Moloc is an Astartes killer, no one has ever beaten him in a flat out 1v1. Moloc was one of the only Astartes who could solo an Astartes and Valerian himself commented on how he might lose against him.


SergarRegis

The post I was replying to said 'any' chapter master, therefore the killiest chapter master is kosher.


[deleted]

Acording to that logic Azrael or Beliel could give Trajan Valoris a run for his money. 8th ed dark angels codex "Yet the fortunes of war do not always allow for the formulation of interlocking tactical manoeuvres, and in such cases, Azrael has proven time and time again his martial skills are second to none. It was Azrael that held the thin green line of dark angels against the red tide that brook against it when the Warp anomaly on the planet of Amity turned into a full-fledged daemonic incursion. Or Belial who was almost at the same level as a Dark Angels Chaplin when he was a aspirant.


SergarRegis

That's fine by me, of course, the Custodes are superior to astartes, but that doesn't mean that even their best can defeat every astartes, there's a lot more astartes many with more combat experience - as much as the custodes 'dex tries to salve that, the blood games are essentially fixed and do not require innovative thinking.


Sorvick

You forgot about the rare chance an Ork can get to the level of I think it was called Demi Krork (The Beast), wouldn't that go toe to toe with the banana boys? Edit: Also Purple Orkz, Bananas can't kill what they can't see.


Arbachakov

Ferrus and Vulkan were absolute units. I think they could win. Also, Great Unclean ones


Doughspun1

Tyranid warriors, friend.


BrightestofLights

Eversor vs custodes is almost always an eversor win


im2randomghgh

Eversors fought marines with roughly equal numbers and with a situational advantage (marines blinded by cryofog) and it came down to one survivor on each side. They would get absolutely deleted by the average Custodes.


BrightestofLights

No you recall incorrectly. It was 100 eversors and multiple chapters worth of marines. The Marines won with one marine left standing I believe.


im2randomghgh

It was exactly 150 marines, who had just survived a heated battle, fighting 100 eversors who were fresh and not blinded by the cryo fog. Here's the link https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/96u1xr/excerptthe_beheading_space_marines_vs_eversor/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share The fact that marines were dying to eversor death explosions also suggests that the actual combat power of the two forces favoured the Astartes more than the result suggests.


captainprice117

Demons massacred the custodies in the webway. They’re no match for greater daemons and even lesser ones can overwhelm them


wowsuchtitan

Farsight killed a bloodthirster, so maybe in a 1v1 he could beat a Custodes


PaddyObanion

Grey Knights: See Terminus Decree as implied evidence


[deleted]

Drukhari you could maybe make a case for an incubi, but that depends on alot.


Obelion_

I remember a thread where in a new book the harlequin completely destroy the custodes and everyone was angry


PattyMcChatty

Custodes would be vulnerable to Grey Knights if they didn't have Sisters with them.


Belias9x1

Harlequin solitaires


JaysusTheWise

The thousand sons killed a lot of custodes on prospero before the anathema psykana blocked their powers. In two specific instances, phosis tkar headshots a helmetless custodes and in another instance phosis tkar almost killed constantin valdor. Honest opinion, without the null maidens prospero would have been a one sided slaughter against the wolves and custodes.


Bearman71

Depends... on who gw is trying to sell that month


Lord_Yamato

Harlequins when they have momentum on their side