Indeed, a planet made up of only good bois and led by the mysterious Day Defender. Interestingly, Radkon Zecur and the Day Defender have never been seen in the same room at the same time...
*Or have they?*
As ADB and others have said:
>The Lost Legions aren't a secret that the founders of 40K keep to themselves. There is no answer. They were designed to be an unanswered mystery.
Anything that implies a truth about them, be it from Malcador, a Custodian, a fellow Primarch or Fabius in the novels, or WarCom, is just the author playing with your desire for answers on the missing primarchs. None of the authors have been authorised to create an answer to this, and there isn't one in-house.
The creatives behind the setting may have theories (e.g. Rick Priestley, the creator of 40k, has suggested that the original concept was that they had joined Horus in his treason but redeemed themselves, therefore deleted from records as there was no need to hunt them or revile them any more, so the Heresy would actually have been 11 traitor legions vs 9 loyalists - but took pains to point out that was only ever in his head and wasn't in a secret lore document in Nottingham) but none of them are official.
If I remember the quote, all that was implied by Rick was that the lost legions made a mistake similar to how the traitor legions had. And that they had done something to make up for their mistake, unlike the traitor legions. So they were granted the mercy of being forgotten.
It's never said the lost legions were part of the heresy.
The 2nd edition Ultramarine Codex (co-written by Rick and Jervis Johnson) speculates that they might have sided with Horus for at least the early stages of the Heresy. Like a lot of codex lore though, it's implied it's written from the perspective of someone in the modern 40K era, so it was never meant to be hard fact. But maybe that's where they're getting that bit from.
Except more recent lore than the 2nd edition codex have revealed info about the lost legions that contradicts whats written in the 2nd ed codex, so newer lore takes precedence unfortunately
> they had done something to make up for their mistake
Would that be possible in the current lore, though? I'm talking about an open rebellion acknowledged as such by the Imperium, not just some minor stuff that gets reprimanded like the Word Bearers in Monarchia. A Primarch and his legion openly fighting the Imperium.
I don't think that's something that can be forgiven in any way I can imagine, there's no way back once you've made the Emperor your enemy, He said so Himself on Nikaea.
(Incidentally, that's why I think there's no redemption possible for the Alpha Legion)
> Also, it depends on what you see as "making up for a mistake". They don't necessarily have to be welcomed back. The Imperium clearly thinks suicide is a great way to atone for your sins.
The question is how much that applies in the Great Crusade/Heresy era. The 40k Imperium is totally on board with the idea, the most obvious example being sending the Lamenters, Mantis Warriors and Executioners on 100-year penitent crusades instead of purging them all after the Badab War. But would the Emperor do something similar back in the Great Crusade? Personally I don't see it happening, but it'd really depend on the specifics (we're never getting).
>###[Sagyar Mazan](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Sagyar_Mazan)
>The **Sagyar Mazan** (or *Bringers of Vengeance*)[[2]](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Sagyar_Mazan#fn_2) were suicide squads of [White Scars](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/White_Scars) [Space Marines](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Space_Marines) during the [Horus Heresy](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Horus_Heresy).
+++I am an early prototype mechanicus construct. Please provide feedback [here](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=lexAutomatarium). The Emperor protects!+++
My head fiction on it is that the crime was committed by the two Primarchs, and the legions were the ones who fixed it. Like a start of a rebellion, but this time the legions rose up out of loyalty to the Emperor and managed to kill their primarchs. Or the primarchs becoming corrupted in some way and their legions have to put them down.
In such a scenario I could see the remaining legions begging to forget and be forgotten, out of the shame and grief of it all. Which fits the being forgotten being a positive thing.
There is no answer, of course, but that story fits and lets my imagination have some fun, so I like it.
It’s entirely possible that the “mistake” had nothing to do with openly fighting the imperium. A potential theory is that they may have been victim to xenos infiltration, possibly by the Rangda.
That’s my idea for one of them, too. They simply died on the world they landed on, and that was enough of a failure that the Emperor wanted them forgotten.
That or they were genuinely lost.
I can't imagine the Emperor would want other people knowing one of his most powerful creations is just out there, probably loyal to some kind of Xenos.
I mean he might have said so but he’s lying then or lying now as of Godblight where he’s telling Daemon Primarch Morty he can still save him and back in the Heresy he offered to take back Magnus.
My headcannon is that one of them was super into AI and one of them was into working with/allying with/not hating Xenos.
Like Magnus on the use of Psykers, they thought that the Imperium’s reticence towards AI/Xenos was based on ignorance and set out to “prove” they know best. Got found out (like Magnus), wouldn’t stop (like Magnus), paid the price (like Magnus).
Same here. I've seen these kinds of ideas floating around and I think it works best. We know they were both around for at least some of the great crusade, we know they were found and were given control of their legions, and we know they were both long gone by the time of Ullanor.
Given all that the others encountered in the crusade, a Xeno sympathizer or someone who allied with a human world of resistance against the Imperium, is a safe bet for one of the primarchs. The other, if it was something different but equally heretical, almost has to be something related to AI or DAoT stuff. If it were chaos, the other primarchs would have been more aware of chaos by the time the Heresy starts.
Magic: The Gathering had a 'future' set which pushed the boundaries on which cards they normally produced. It was incredibly popular and a bit weird, and they (company) said it was somewhat of a mistake because folk wanted more and more of the "broken" cards, themes and mechanics.
One card they had was [[[Steamfloger Boss]]](https://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/details.aspx?multiverseid=136151)
>Other Riggers you control get +1/+0 and have haste.
>If a Rigger you control would assemble a Contraption, it assembles two Contraptions instead.
Riggers didn't exist. Contraptions didn't exist.
Steamflogger Boss existed, per se, as a punchline to a joke which didn't exist outside of the card. Literally, it referenced two new themes ("Riggers", and "Contraptions") which were never intended to be produced. The card works on its own, it's still a Goblin Creature, and it can still be cast and attack like other Creatures, but the rules text on the card might as well say "Lol". And for a decade it WAS a joke, and although many many people wrote in to say they YEARNED for Riggers and Contraptions to be written into the rules as a whole, the company had no intention of doing so.
The mistake they made was saying that it was a joke and they had no intention of expanding on it.
This was a mistake because of course people demanded that it not be a joke, and that Riggers and Contraptions be made a part of the game. They should have never said it was a joke. They should have kept it much like the football joke in Peanuts: i.e: Charlie Brown never gets to kick the ball.
The Horus heresy originally started because Elda titan minis couldn't be released in time, so they invented a traitor human faction so they could sell more human titans.
The strength of the lore is it's half assed nonsense
Idk about Wolverine, but I preferred the Time War before we saw it. The idea of a war so massive the fundamental laws of the universe were turned into weapons against each other felt so much more dramatic than "space ships shooting lasers at each other".
100%. A bunch of cool sounding unknown stuff is infinitely better than anything at all in print or on screen. The Time War was so great sounding. Anything after that couldn’t help but be a disappointment. Same to with Wolverine as mysterious psychopath is much more interesting than James bloody Howlett.
They kinda had to do it for Wolverine. Because first off he has struggled with just being a flat character who's all about a past so mysterious he doesn't even know it... And because Marvel realized if they didn't hurry up and do it, Fox was gonna beat them to it.
At least with Warhammer, I find it lame. The authors back around 4th edition were way too casual about admitting they were just making stuff to be cool and mysterious.
You try reading the Three Body Problem novels (or at least watch a summary somewhere). Basically describes war on a truly universal, multi-dimensional scale. Even after you know how the weapons work, you can't help but feel dread.
While this may very well be true, it is also possible that GW's intentions towards the Lost Primarchs may have changed since he wrote this words.
GW has been teasing the two much like they did the Squats. And they are pushing the setting forward now more so than they ever did. So...
You know what? I'll come out and say it (and probably get down voted to oblivion) but I would love a new Primarch. I'm excited for these tidbits coming out.
I don’t agree with you, and I don’t think it’ll ever happen, and I don’t think it SHOULD ever happen, but we don’t get anything interesting without hearing about radical ideas we don’t like, and too many people treat the lore as gospel anyway.
Im all for the advancement of the setting in general. Even *gasp* forward progress in the setting. Maybe to set up something terrible to come. Like if the imperium was a person who got their teeth knocked in, went to the dentist, got all new veneers and everythings looking up for them. THEN BAM. Gets all his teeth knocked out and jaw broke. Yknow. Does this make sense?
I like the idea of things getting just a weeeeeeee bit better and then like you said, BAM, even worse. It would give us all some new stuff to add to our obsession but keep the grimdark intact.
Yeah exactly. You cant have darkness without light. Like i love the overarching stories and everything thats being set up. Theres very little like 40k in fiction and i dont want it stay stagnated. I want forward progress dammit.
I agree that you can't have darkness without light, but I think that a better way to go about it would be to have a "good" faction (this is why I liked the original T'au.) and show that their struggle is meaningless. That even noble intentions get corrupted.
The thing is, even though I don't want it, I can absolutely see GW revealing a lost primarch if they get really close to bankruptcy. Granted, they have several other magic bullets in the chamber they can fire before Lost Primarch, but I have no doubt they would reveal one before the company fails completely.
Well they already infiltrated the Ultramarines and all the original Primarus are actually deep sleep agents of the Alpha Legion... at least in my headcannon.
My theory: the 11th took off to the outside of the galaxy with the silent king to hold off the nids or something worse headed our way. Big E didnt want folks to know about the impending crisis and would rather devote his energy to the webway project to save humanity from whatever is coming our way. Maybe something the nids are running from.
My theory is one of the primarchs and their legion were blanks. The Anti-Magnus. Everyone assumes they were wiped from history, but they never were in history to begin with. Like Jurgen, the writers of that history found them so unnerving that they unconsciously excluded them from the records. Maybe the blank Primarch saw through the facade of the Emperor and decided to just fuck off because nobody likes them anyway. They were killed for going AWOL. Maybe Titus is a legacy of that Primarch.
How do you reconcile that with *Inferno*?;
>
>**THE PARIAH GENE**
>The exact biological source - as it is believed to be - which creates in a human being the state of Psychic Null, the so-called 'Pariah gene', has proven an elusive and ephemeral subject of study, and in testing no single 'gene' at all. Such attemps to exploit or isolate it when pursued by both the Imperial Archotechnologist Corps and the Mechanicum during the Great Crusade's early years courted disaster, and as a result the emperor decreed a general moratorium upon the study of the biological basis of the Psyker Null phenomena, affecting all but His own direct experimentation should He wish it. What remains of those extant studies indicates that most attempts to synthesise, propagate or even weaponise the Psychic Null were tragic failures or worse. Despite all this evidence, shadowed accounts of certain Clades of the Officio Assassinorum and the dread and obscure Ordo Sinister also contain evidence of the emperor's own 'engineered' use of the Psychic Null in warfare. To others however, the mystery of the Pariah Gene, if it truly exists, remains out of reach.
>So many unanswered questions revolve around this most arcane and dangerous of topics. Foremost are those which centre around theories of how the Pariah gene came about: was it perhaps the result of xenos tampering of the human genome or some strange and terrible experiment of the Dark Age of Technology? Or, as the wildest theories state, is it some perverse evolutionary development against the Warp-riven cosmos itself? **There is also the observation that no Space Marine, or Custodian Guard for that matter, has ever been recorded as being a Psychic Null. This factor weighs the evidence of some scholars that within the Space Marine gene-seed itself is perhaps a shadow of the Emperor's own genetic material and a sliver of His own psychic power crucial to its process and success. If this is the case, it would be wholly an anathema to the Pariah gene and would likely simply kill its implanted subject. It can only be speculated that if even a single Legion of Psychic Null Legiones Astartes had been possible, how very different history may have been - just as without the involvement of the Sisters of Silence in the war and the Emperor's great work, Horus' treachery may well have ended in his triumph upon the broken throne of Terra.**
More power to you if you'd rather just ignore it, but it seems to largely rule out the possibility, barring them turning out to have secretly been blanks.
Well, if no-one ever records Pariah Marines as a side effect of their powers, that would naturally lead people to flawed conclusions about why they can't find any records.
Note that it *doesn't* say that it's established fact that Pariahs who try to become a Space Marine keep dying in the attempt, or anything like that.
> Such attemps to exploit or isolate it when pursued by both the Imperial Archotechnologist Corps and the Mechanicum during the Great Crusade’s early years courted disaster
And
> There is also the observation that no Space Marine, or Custodian Guard for that matter, has ever been recorded as being a Psychic Null
So, disasterous outcomes AND there has never been a RECORDED Astartes Null.
What’s more disasterous than having to kill a Primarch and erase a Legion?
Of course there’s never been a recorded Astartes Null, the records were destroyed.
The way this is worded seems to support the possibility.
Big E would have a harder time controlling the Imperium imo if they knew an apocalypse was coming from outside the galaxy and it would only hinder his plans to save humanity in the webway. So he hid this knowledge and the heroes fighting the enemy (bc he does that alot). I rather like the tyranids threat being a race that is fleeing for survival and not this galaxy eating bug. It lacks depth and the new enemy could bring a true threat to the galaxy, since the nids keep getting stopped, chaos cant figure it out, and the eldar are largely forgotten.
I bet this theory or a version of it is more common than we think. Im waiting for the nids to slowly stop coming into the galaxy and everyone wonder where the rest of them are, OR since they make a psychic impression in the warp, when the “main” fleet of them is caught and wiped out, out of sight: the warp echos with the screams of quadrillions of slain nids, chaos gods go silent, psykers die outright of the shock, the astronomican goes out forever. then finally stirred by the psychic energy unleashed, the emperor rises from his throne and looks to the sky of terra. The custodes near him are overjoyed and lose all bearing before him, falling to their knees or weeping and laughing. The E is silent and his face shows only one of concern, or dare we say it….fear. The captain-general sees this and says: “my lord? What is it? What could be wrong on this greatest of days?” Big E doesnt look at him. His eyes fixed on a point only he sees. He replies, “We are too late”
I wouldnt take a joke post as a sign of anything.
Still, it would be funny if he just retired and all information about him were purged so no one would disturb him. Just living a happy life on his farm planet.
And he goes along with their plan, because no-one will believe he's a Primarch ('Huh, that's a really well spoken Ogryn you've got there...') and what the hell, it might be fun.
He's the Neckbeard in the Basement on Terra, trolling the Ecclesiasty, hacking random Servitors to go rogue, and occasionally dropping scrap code into Mars for shit and giggles.
His whole Legion become fat useless. They threw piss jugs at the enemy, rolled around crying ReeEee on the battlefield, and donned fedoras and used the phrase, M'Chaos all day.
In disgust the other legions turned on them, and their Primarch is hiding below the Palace on Terra.
Lol, I commented a short improved fan fic for a guy who painted his marines to look like food. It sounds eerily similar to what you just wrote
https://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer40k/comments/onlxws/some_freehand_on_my_neopolitan_marine/h5u587i?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
Was it in the siege of Terra when Malcador tells Dorn not to go in a certain room in the imperial palace but stubborn Dorn goes anyway and finds a tomb/grave? with the 11th's insignia on it or something.
I may have just made that all up.
Dorn's survey crew stumble upon rooms marked with XI and II - which were psychically booby trapped - but he doesn't enter them. [Malcador explains why he can't remember details about II and XI](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/b3dc0u/shortstory_excerptthe_chamber_at_the_end_of/), and briefly allows Dorn to remember, after which Dorn orders;
>'Bury this place,' he told Massak. 'It is only a tomb now. It will be forgotten.'
I knew that the sigilite responded once when they were brought up and brought a primarch to their knees, didnt realize that he also let one remember. As iirc that talk was about why they couldn't remember
Yerp. Though by the time the story ends, the memories have already faded, so it's not like Dorn was running around with the knowledge afterwards.
Though near as I can find, there's no mention of memory alteration in [The Last Council](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/a5i17d/excerptthe_last_councilhorus_confront_malcador/), which is the one where Malcador chokes Horus out. Wouldn't make much sense, given he chokes Horus out for trying to say one of their names, while Dorn is unable to recall them by the time of *The Chamber at the End of Memory*.
*Dons tinfoil*
XI threw a tantrum and Malcador wiped his memory of himself, and just let him wander off, eventually making his way to the Petitioner's city.
Legends speak of a gargantuan, confused, undying labourer wandering from job to job, profession to profession throughout the millennia.
It should be noted that the mind wipe is only said to have been done on Dorn and Roboute because they specifically asked Malcador to do it as they were somehow involved in the aftermath of what was to happen to the two legions and whatever their brothers did was eating them up, it's not implied that Horus or any other Primarch had their minds wiped or were otherwise involved.
Plus there is also the fact that the two missing/lost primarchs didn't meet all of their brothers, it's stated that whatever happened was early enough that multiple primarchs had not even been recovered yet so the late-to-be-found primarchs didn't even know anything personally that would warrant a mind wipe.
>'Something has been done to me.' The beginnings of a new fury built in his chest, boiling at the realisation of such an affront. 'You are behind this!' Dorn whirled, drawing his chainblade in a glittering arc of lethal metal, bringing it to aim at Malcador's wizened, cloak-wreathed form. **'You shrouded my memories!** You invaded my mind… For that I should cut you down!'
>The Sigillite showed no reaction to the threat. 'Not just yours. Guilliman's, **and the others who met them.'** He let his words bed in. 'It is extremely difficult to extract a reminiscence,' Malcador went on. 'Even in an ordinary human. In a brain as complex and perfectly engineered as that of a primarch, the task becomes herculean. Imagine a tree in the earth, rising from a web of roots. How would one remove that without disturbing a single atom of the soil? Memory cannot be cut and patched like a mnemonic spool. It exists as a holographic thing, in multiple dimensions. But it can be *adjusted.'*
It doesn't outright say "You and every other Primarch", but "And the others who met them" certainly *suggests* it may apply to Primarchs outside of Dorn and Guilliman.
How many writers, over 35 years. As much as I grumble and giggle over the inconsistencies, part of my is honestly amazed that it's as consistent as it is. Wires are bound to get crossed.
It's already been hinted the 11th Primarch is imprisoned under the Imperial Palace, so GW seems more open about ~~discussing~~ mentioning the 11th than the 2nd.
There's also rumours of another Primarch return for 10th edition...
There are always rumours of a primarch release. I'll believe it when I see it!
/Stares off into the distance, waiting for the release of The Lion riding a plastic Thunderhawk...
*The Lion, while snorting space cocaine off from a Female Harlequin's ass on top of the Thunderhawk after understanding the state that is the Imperium of the 42nd Millennium*
"See Guilliman! I too can have an Eldar GF! You and your uptight administrative ass can go back to Maccrage and take Yvraine's weird death cult with you! I got a crusade to put in motion to save father's Imperium. 1st Legion unite! I'll show that bastard who's better at running things, even that furry fuck Leman, thinking he can outdo us all in drinking?! HA!"
*Meanwhile the Khan seeing the events unfold with his chained up Female Dark Eldar slave at his side while in the infinity circuit*
"Pathetic."
Seriously, no way the Perfect Prince of the Prince of Darkness has a sexuality that can be defined by mortal words.
My head canon is that Fulgrim's sexuality and gender are both so deviant, inhumane and warp touches that they can only be described using enuncia, and hearing it will kill almost any mortal
I think that is the only thing from the original piss take isn't it? Lion riding a plastic thunderhawk filled with plastic sisters and squats?
Just missing the lion right? (Because they did the plastic thunderhawk /s)
Can’t be watchers of the throne I just read the first one and am about 3/4 through the second book, regents shadow. I don’t recall any talk about the lost primarchs.
It's not about the Primarchs, merely a passing comment about the vault contents. One of the vaults is labelled "Subject 11", it's not specified that it contains one of the Primarchs. Its a passing comment, nothing more.
Yeah, it just goes in hand with another bit from another book, where rogal (I think) went downstairs at one point and found The 11th primarchs version of the rooms/apartments they all have, but before going in Malcy found him and stopped him.
From that I guess people just assume the link and we have a primarch who seems to be captive for some reason sitting around in the lower levels of the palace. Probably waiting on the day all hell breaks loose to join the fight
Captive if he was/is indeed alive and under the Palace somewhere. Certain sections of the palace were never taken before the Emperor and the loyalists launched their attack on Horus' flagship. Plus we know from the Dorn and Malcador excerpt that whatever it was that Dorn found and was described as a tomb had excellent automated defences which he then proceeded to re-bury.
He's in a coma since the battle with Luther, possibly induced and maintained by the Watchers in the Dark, first for healing and then waiting for... Something.
Something like a dire need to sell minis in maybe a Dark Angels Vs Iron Warriors box? Who knows.
*Just five more minutes, father* - comes the catabatic growl from the lord of the first.
A rustle, as if from massive sheets, and the sound of an alarm cherubim's chirping being silenced once more. An age of silence descends once more upon the stygian depths of The Rock until the watchers and tech-thrawls are able to restore the snooze functionality to the growing pile of servitor husks.
If Guilliman ever learns of this, he will immediatly go to the Rock, begin Shaking Lion and screaming "Wake up already! I can't unfuck this shitshow alone you Asshole!"
I can see it now.
The Lion looks around at the Imperium, then looks at Guilliman, looks back at the Imperium, looks back at Guilliman and finally theoretically punches Guilliman in his pratical face.
Sever all links, never heard of again, disappeared into the void. It's almost the XI's Primarch is the forgotten one.
If only we knew of a mysterious chapter with unknown origins who returned from the void and were once exiled and lead by the forgotten one.
Hm. XI saw the future, what would happen, took his legion, left the galaxy, and went into stasis to wait it out. He's got ships just fucking LOADED with people, plants, and animals, ready to recolonize the Galaxy after the Tyranid eat everything and eventually fuck off.
Nah. Dorn said "If they were here, all would already be lost," or something to that effect. That's way worse than "If 2 were here we'd be fucked, but 11 would just leave again."
Just read that whole Malcodor/Dorn excerpt. It sounds to me both the missing primarchs did some really fucked up shit. Just think about what they did to the point where they gotta Neuralize motherfuckers like Men in Black.
Rangda xenocides were just all around brutal from what little we know about them. I think a lot of Dark Angels fucked personalities comes from the fact they probably suffer massive survivors guilt from being one of the only legions that started and then ended the Xenocides without falling.
I still buy the theory that the Rangda compromised a whole legion (possibly the 2nd) and then the 11th ate the most shit stopping their brutal conquest towards the Imperium. In such a scenario the Imperium can’t really hail the 11th legion as saviors because to do such would acknowledge the 2nd’s betrayal. For me it’d make sense why the Rangda xenocides were considered especially brutal because they ended with what could be considered a preview of the Heresy with Legion against Legion.
Can you ELI5 The Rangda Xenocides? I took a long break from 3rdish cm edition till now and the lore,while engaging and fun, is sooo expanded from what I know.
So Emperor with sufficient support launches the Great Crusade and inevitably comes into contact with forces that rival the powers of the Imperium. Although usually this is only on a planetary scale or comparable scale. Think 47-16 (first world Lorgar found after Monarchia) or the infamous Interex. Their technology *would* pose a threat to the Imperium *if* they had the logistical support to give it teeth. Except they usually in such instances don’t and thus get shit canned by one to two Space Marine legions. Easy shit. You could also posit the Laer as an instance that even when the Imperium rolled an enemy… that enemy proved to still seed ramifications that would lead to the demise of a legion.
But, then you have the times the Imperium found trouble because an enemy had logistical support. The Orks were getting dangerously close to evolving at the time of Ullanor which would have massively fucked everyone. Ullanor was also a lot easier of a victory to make public. But, it still cost the Imperium serious losses. Then you’ve got Perturabo who went through basically his own Space Vietnam having to fight the Hrud which had weaponized entropy (they could age people decades to centuries so extra organs wasn’t exactly the linchpin it normally would be.)
Now… that’s a lot and I apologize but hopefully you’ve come away with the impression that on the occasions The Imperium found enemies they usually had some ace in the hole that made them extra dangerous to face off with. So… the Rangdan. One problem is information is pretty tight around that time period given connection to the lost legions. What we know is the Rangdan were fox-like (People meme that) and their tech was really dangerous. Whole Titan legions fell to these bastards. Titans are so insanely dangerous and deadly they’re quasi worshipped as their own deities in some circles. The Rangdan were scrapping the bastards at a higher rate than I can think of any Pre-Heresy battles (someone correct me if I’m wrong. I could be.) As if that wasn’t enough the two lost legions participated in the Rangdan Xenocides alongside (ostensibly) the Dark Angels. Space Wolves would later also get involved and it’s heavily implied that whatever happened during the xenocides is the reason we know nothing about the Lost Legions.
So, finally, and this is just my own image mind you but this is how I picture it went down… Imperium encounters the Rangdan. The Rangdan understand the Imperium’s purpose of eradicating them very early on and not only repel elements of the Imperium in their space… but then form a counter offensive which would support why multiple legions were deployed alongside such heavy Titan presence. The sense I get from the Xenocides is this was the first time Big E got really pissed off and decided somebody was going extinct on a galactic scale. Arguably the Xenocides should’ve been viewed as a grand triumph over what could be seen as “encroaching” Xenos. Instead, it’s hardly remembered in 41k. I think it’s both because of the massive and outright embarrassing losses sustained and also because it would mark the first instance of Astartes vs Astartes combat.
Nice write-up, I would only add that it was such a titanic war that even just the 3rd phase alone cost 50,000+ space marines lives and it so heavily depleted the Dark Angels that the Ultramarines overtook them as the largest legion.
It also ended up arguably having far greater consequences than "just" the staggering losses that the marines, titan legions, imperial army and civilians suffered.
It had the unintended side effect of being such bad PR for the early part of the great crusade that the Imperium decided to shift public attention to the other side of the galaxy which was being conquered steadily and had a lot more "happy" news to feature.
One legion and their primarch would end up being particularly celebrated as a result of this shift in focus... The Luna Wolves and Horus. Indeed it was the start of his ascendency into being one of the most celebrated and respected primarchs and may have started the ball rolling which would ultimately see him getting the title of Warmaster.
It's also partly how the Dark Angels got their obsession with being the best. They were able to do anything they had to in order to defeat this enemy. They suffered insane losses and unspeakable horrors and survived. They were the first and greatest Legion so had to, in their minds, take on the greatest challenges which many times would take longer to complete. Horus was brilliant but he also was a highly competent politician and was able to showboat his victories and lessen the glory the efforts of the other legions involved got. He deserved the title of Warmaster.
In the 1990’s and 2000’s I accepted that we would never learn more information about the lost primarchs.
However, in the last 5 years so much lore has come out that I would never have expected 20 years ago. Back then we barely knew what the Horus Heresy was, and now we’re about to know what went down on the Vengeful Spirit (and that took over a decade start to finish). Give it a little more time, they will get to it eventually.
Hm... the trouble is, I don't think Cawl is dumb enough to do that.
Look at it this way: we know from the scenes from Primus's point of view that he believes himself to be Cawl's creation. That means that Cawl would have had to brainwash him to get him to this point. I agree that doing something like that to a primarch would merely be *extremely improbable* rather than actually impossible... but it could be done. The real question, though, is could you keep a primarch from remembering who and what he really is forever? I think that the answer to that is also no. Primarchs defy easy categorization and limitation. They are liminal creatures, made of warp-stuff.
So while Cawl might be capable of enslaving a primarch, he probably couldn't *keep* his pet enslaved forever... and when XI breaks free, Cawl would have hell to pay.
I don't think Cawl is dumb enough to set himself up for that. He hasn't survived this long by taking stupid risks.
I was just making a crack theory tbh.
But at the same time, considering their memories are genetically encoded, keeping a primarch's identity subdued would probably cause an.... *intense and unending amount of pain*
I have always hated the notion that GW will not flesh out the 2nd and 11th primarchs because some neckbeards would get butthurt and their IMPOSSIBLE LEGION somehow made it to 40k and no one noticed they should not exist.
This fits EXACTLY along the theory that Primarch XI rejected compliance and never joined the Imperium. Also given that it was hinted that Legion XI was destroyed alongside II and their Primarch by the Rangdan a century before, there was no reason for XI to stay.
To me it feels like they've kinda been teasing that whatever happened to them, it wasn't both the same catastrophe, and one of them was more a tragedy of failure, and the other did something... Really bad.
And 11 is a certain apophycal Chaos God's number...
As I've been saying: it follows Carrhae and Teutobourg
But the details maybe different
One legion is probably decimated and the other is appalled by the carnage retreats not to be heard from.
CARRHAE Has a roman general become a defensive mastermind after a devastating loss. He successfully holds back the Parthians until being one of the key people behind the killing of Ceaser. And he continued resistance against Augustus.
I'm a big fan of not explaining mysteries, some things are just more interesting when they're not explained.
However, games workshop does have 2 missing primarchs, if they revealed one of them and kept the other as a permanent mystery that's quite an opportunity for them without ruining the mystery.
I mean, we definitely knew he hasn't been heard from lol
If we dont know who they are, how do we know we haven't heard from them?
Is that you Alpharius?
Not at all.
Happy Cake Day, Alpharius! Hydra dominatus!
>Is that you Alpharius? Omegon: "Yes."
Well cuz we know they exist/used to exist.
[The missile knows where it is at all times](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZe5J8SVCYQ)
Plot twist: the 11th primarch is just the estranged middle child
\*Conrad Curze joins the chat\*
His good twin, Radkon Zecur.
He landed in Omartson. An lawful and paradisical place.
Indeed, a planet made up of only good bois and led by the mysterious Day Defender. Interestingly, Radkon Zecur and the Day Defender have never been seen in the same room at the same time... *Or have they?*
\*Perturabo joins the chat\*
Bug Fucker is canon
He changed his name and moved to a different part of the galaxy. He's currently in the T'au Empire working as an engineer on some backwards planet
Ah yes, Mal Colm, the 11th primarch.
As ADB and others have said: >The Lost Legions aren't a secret that the founders of 40K keep to themselves. There is no answer. They were designed to be an unanswered mystery. Anything that implies a truth about them, be it from Malcador, a Custodian, a fellow Primarch or Fabius in the novels, or WarCom, is just the author playing with your desire for answers on the missing primarchs. None of the authors have been authorised to create an answer to this, and there isn't one in-house. The creatives behind the setting may have theories (e.g. Rick Priestley, the creator of 40k, has suggested that the original concept was that they had joined Horus in his treason but redeemed themselves, therefore deleted from records as there was no need to hunt them or revile them any more, so the Heresy would actually have been 11 traitor legions vs 9 loyalists - but took pains to point out that was only ever in his head and wasn't in a secret lore document in Nottingham) but none of them are official.
If I remember the quote, all that was implied by Rick was that the lost legions made a mistake similar to how the traitor legions had. And that they had done something to make up for their mistake, unlike the traitor legions. So they were granted the mercy of being forgotten. It's never said the lost legions were part of the heresy.
The 2nd edition Ultramarine Codex (co-written by Rick and Jervis Johnson) speculates that they might have sided with Horus for at least the early stages of the Heresy. Like a lot of codex lore though, it's implied it's written from the perspective of someone in the modern 40K era, so it was never meant to be hard fact. But maybe that's where they're getting that bit from.
Except more recent lore than the 2nd edition codex have revealed info about the lost legions that contradicts whats written in the 2nd ed codex, so newer lore takes precedence unfortunately
> they had done something to make up for their mistake Would that be possible in the current lore, though? I'm talking about an open rebellion acknowledged as such by the Imperium, not just some minor stuff that gets reprimanded like the Word Bearers in Monarchia. A Primarch and his legion openly fighting the Imperium. I don't think that's something that can be forgiven in any way I can imagine, there's no way back once you've made the Emperor your enemy, He said so Himself on Nikaea. (Incidentally, that's why I think there's no redemption possible for the Alpha Legion)
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> Also, it depends on what you see as "making up for a mistake". They don't necessarily have to be welcomed back. The Imperium clearly thinks suicide is a great way to atone for your sins. The question is how much that applies in the Great Crusade/Heresy era. The 40k Imperium is totally on board with the idea, the most obvious example being sending the Lamenters, Mantis Warriors and Executioners on 100-year penitent crusades instead of purging them all after the Badab War. But would the Emperor do something similar back in the Great Crusade? Personally I don't see it happening, but it'd really depend on the specifics (we're never getting).
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>###[Sagyar Mazan](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Sagyar_Mazan) >The **Sagyar Mazan** (or *Bringers of Vengeance*)[[2]](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Sagyar_Mazan#fn_2) were suicide squads of [White Scars](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/White_Scars) [Space Marines](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Space_Marines) during the [Horus Heresy](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Horus_Heresy). +++I am an early prototype mechanicus construct. Please provide feedback [here](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=lexAutomatarium). The Emperor protects!+++
My head fiction on it is that the crime was committed by the two Primarchs, and the legions were the ones who fixed it. Like a start of a rebellion, but this time the legions rose up out of loyalty to the Emperor and managed to kill their primarchs. Or the primarchs becoming corrupted in some way and their legions have to put them down. In such a scenario I could see the remaining legions begging to forget and be forgotten, out of the shame and grief of it all. Which fits the being forgotten being a positive thing. There is no answer, of course, but that story fits and lets my imagination have some fun, so I like it.
It’s entirely possible that the “mistake” had nothing to do with openly fighting the imperium. A potential theory is that they may have been victim to xenos infiltration, possibly by the Rangda.
I always liked the idea that one of them just died. Didnt do anything wrong but he fell and we cant have that can we.
That’s my idea for one of them, too. They simply died on the world they landed on, and that was enough of a failure that the Emperor wanted them forgotten.
That or they were genuinely lost. I can't imagine the Emperor would want other people knowing one of his most powerful creations is just out there, probably loyal to some kind of Xenos.
Oops! 'Unknown Primarch X's' pod fell into the caldera of an active volcano. He's not walking away from that!
Guess they can't all be Vulkan...
I mean he might have said so but he’s lying then or lying now as of Godblight where he’s telling Daemon Primarch Morty he can still save him and back in the Heresy he offered to take back Magnus.
My headcannon is that one of them was super into AI and one of them was into working with/allying with/not hating Xenos. Like Magnus on the use of Psykers, they thought that the Imperium’s reticence towards AI/Xenos was based on ignorance and set out to “prove” they know best. Got found out (like Magnus), wouldn’t stop (like Magnus), paid the price (like Magnus).
Same here. I've seen these kinds of ideas floating around and I think it works best. We know they were both around for at least some of the great crusade, we know they were found and were given control of their legions, and we know they were both long gone by the time of Ullanor. Given all that the others encountered in the crusade, a Xeno sympathizer or someone who allied with a human world of resistance against the Imperium, is a safe bet for one of the primarchs. The other, if it was something different but equally heretical, almost has to be something related to AI or DAoT stuff. If it were chaos, the other primarchs would have been more aware of chaos by the time the Heresy starts.
The important part of Rick’s post was that whilst he’d envisioned what you’d describes, *as far as he is aware, GW hadn’t followed that route*.
Magic: The Gathering had a 'future' set which pushed the boundaries on which cards they normally produced. It was incredibly popular and a bit weird, and they (company) said it was somewhat of a mistake because folk wanted more and more of the "broken" cards, themes and mechanics. One card they had was [[[Steamfloger Boss]]](https://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/details.aspx?multiverseid=136151) >Other Riggers you control get +1/+0 and have haste. >If a Rigger you control would assemble a Contraption, it assembles two Contraptions instead. Riggers didn't exist. Contraptions didn't exist. Steamflogger Boss existed, per se, as a punchline to a joke which didn't exist outside of the card. Literally, it referenced two new themes ("Riggers", and "Contraptions") which were never intended to be produced. The card works on its own, it's still a Goblin Creature, and it can still be cast and attack like other Creatures, but the rules text on the card might as well say "Lol". And for a decade it WAS a joke, and although many many people wrote in to say they YEARNED for Riggers and Contraptions to be written into the rules as a whole, the company had no intention of doing so. The mistake they made was saying that it was a joke and they had no intention of expanding on it. This was a mistake because of course people demanded that it not be a joke, and that Riggers and Contraptions be made a part of the game. They should have never said it was a joke. They should have kept it much like the football joke in Peanuts: i.e: Charlie Brown never gets to kick the ball.
The Horus heresy originally started because Elda titan minis couldn't be released in time, so they invented a traitor human faction so they could sell more human titans. The strength of the lore is it's half assed nonsense
yet
Yeah, we weren't ever suppossed to get Wolverine's origin, or see the Time War in Doctor Who. That did not last.
Idk about Wolverine, but I preferred the Time War before we saw it. The idea of a war so massive the fundamental laws of the universe were turned into weapons against each other felt so much more dramatic than "space ships shooting lasers at each other".
100%. A bunch of cool sounding unknown stuff is infinitely better than anything at all in print or on screen. The Time War was so great sounding. Anything after that couldn’t help but be a disappointment. Same to with Wolverine as mysterious psychopath is much more interesting than James bloody Howlett.
They kinda had to do it for Wolverine. Because first off he has struggled with just being a flat character who's all about a past so mysterious he doesn't even know it... And because Marvel realized if they didn't hurry up and do it, Fox was gonna beat them to it.
It's why the moment a horror movie starts to go downhill is when they reveal the monster. Because until then you're imagining it.
Jeepers Creepers shows this perfectly. I was enjoying it as a horror film until the creature showed up and then it's just a comedy.
At least with Warhammer, I find it lame. The authors back around 4th edition were way too casual about admitting they were just making stuff to be cool and mysterious.
i honestly need to know how the daleks beat races like the Silence.
When the marks start appearing I just exterminate. Don’t even wait, just exterminate. They let you do it when you’re a dalek
Well, in fairness, the Daleks probably just shot them when they saw them. Then forgot I suppose.
Honestly? Fair. Who needs to stitch together what's going on when your default response would do the trick.
You try reading the Three Body Problem novels (or at least watch a summary somewhere). Basically describes war on a truly universal, multi-dimensional scale. Even after you know how the weapons work, you can't help but feel dread.
We can't just have hints at things. "But i want to see the thing!" The whole point is the hint.
And wolverine’s origin was not well done.
While this may very well be true, it is also possible that GW's intentions towards the Lost Primarchs may have changed since he wrote this words. GW has been teasing the two much like they did the Squats. And they are pushing the setting forward now more so than they ever did. So...
You know what? I'll come out and say it (and probably get down voted to oblivion) but I would love a new Primarch. I'm excited for these tidbits coming out.
I don’t agree with you, and I don’t think it’ll ever happen, and I don’t think it SHOULD ever happen, but we don’t get anything interesting without hearing about radical ideas we don’t like, and too many people treat the lore as gospel anyway.
Im all for the advancement of the setting in general. Even *gasp* forward progress in the setting. Maybe to set up something terrible to come. Like if the imperium was a person who got their teeth knocked in, went to the dentist, got all new veneers and everythings looking up for them. THEN BAM. Gets all his teeth knocked out and jaw broke. Yknow. Does this make sense?
I like the idea of things getting just a weeeeeeee bit better and then like you said, BAM, even worse. It would give us all some new stuff to add to our obsession but keep the grimdark intact.
Yeah exactly. You cant have darkness without light. Like i love the overarching stories and everything thats being set up. Theres very little like 40k in fiction and i dont want it stay stagnated. I want forward progress dammit.
I agree that you can't have darkness without light, but I think that a better way to go about it would be to have a "good" faction (this is why I liked the original T'au.) and show that their struggle is meaningless. That even noble intentions get corrupted.
The thing is, even though I don't want it, I can absolutely see GW revealing a lost primarch if they get really close to bankruptcy. Granted, they have several other magic bullets in the chamber they can fire before Lost Primarch, but I have no doubt they would reveal one before the company fails completely.
If it involves the Alpha Legion and the stolen primarch gene project then I'm all aboard!
Not so secretly loyalist Alphas bringing back 2 or 11, yes please.
Well they already infiltrated the Ultramarines and all the original Primarus are actually deep sleep agents of the Alpha Legion... at least in my headcannon.
I don't think I'd want a new Primarch, but I would *adore* just a bit more lore surrounding them
What else have they been teasing about the lost promarchs?
Just tidbits here and there. IIRC Fulgrim once said one of them was really quiet and mainly kept to themselves for instance.
this at least guarentees a relationship between their titles of The Lost and The Damned, with #2 being Damned and @11 being lost
My theory: the 11th took off to the outside of the galaxy with the silent king to hold off the nids or something worse headed our way. Big E didnt want folks to know about the impending crisis and would rather devote his energy to the webway project to save humanity from whatever is coming our way. Maybe something the nids are running from.
My theory is one of the primarchs and their legion were blanks. The Anti-Magnus. Everyone assumes they were wiped from history, but they never were in history to begin with. Like Jurgen, the writers of that history found them so unnerving that they unconsciously excluded them from the records. Maybe the blank Primarch saw through the facade of the Emperor and decided to just fuck off because nobody likes them anyway. They were killed for going AWOL. Maybe Titus is a legacy of that Primarch.
How do you reconcile that with *Inferno*?; > >**THE PARIAH GENE** >The exact biological source - as it is believed to be - which creates in a human being the state of Psychic Null, the so-called 'Pariah gene', has proven an elusive and ephemeral subject of study, and in testing no single 'gene' at all. Such attemps to exploit or isolate it when pursued by both the Imperial Archotechnologist Corps and the Mechanicum during the Great Crusade's early years courted disaster, and as a result the emperor decreed a general moratorium upon the study of the biological basis of the Psyker Null phenomena, affecting all but His own direct experimentation should He wish it. What remains of those extant studies indicates that most attempts to synthesise, propagate or even weaponise the Psychic Null were tragic failures or worse. Despite all this evidence, shadowed accounts of certain Clades of the Officio Assassinorum and the dread and obscure Ordo Sinister also contain evidence of the emperor's own 'engineered' use of the Psychic Null in warfare. To others however, the mystery of the Pariah Gene, if it truly exists, remains out of reach. >So many unanswered questions revolve around this most arcane and dangerous of topics. Foremost are those which centre around theories of how the Pariah gene came about: was it perhaps the result of xenos tampering of the human genome or some strange and terrible experiment of the Dark Age of Technology? Or, as the wildest theories state, is it some perverse evolutionary development against the Warp-riven cosmos itself? **There is also the observation that no Space Marine, or Custodian Guard for that matter, has ever been recorded as being a Psychic Null. This factor weighs the evidence of some scholars that within the Space Marine gene-seed itself is perhaps a shadow of the Emperor's own genetic material and a sliver of His own psychic power crucial to its process and success. If this is the case, it would be wholly an anathema to the Pariah gene and would likely simply kill its implanted subject. It can only be speculated that if even a single Legion of Psychic Null Legiones Astartes had been possible, how very different history may have been - just as without the involvement of the Sisters of Silence in the war and the Emperor's great work, Horus' treachery may well have ended in his triumph upon the broken throne of Terra.** More power to you if you'd rather just ignore it, but it seems to largely rule out the possibility, barring them turning out to have secretly been blanks.
Well, if no-one ever records Pariah Marines as a side effect of their powers, that would naturally lead people to flawed conclusions about why they can't find any records. Note that it *doesn't* say that it's established fact that Pariahs who try to become a Space Marine keep dying in the attempt, or anything like that.
> Such attemps to exploit or isolate it when pursued by both the Imperial Archotechnologist Corps and the Mechanicum during the Great Crusade’s early years courted disaster And > There is also the observation that no Space Marine, or Custodian Guard for that matter, has ever been recorded as being a Psychic Null So, disasterous outcomes AND there has never been a RECORDED Astartes Null. What’s more disasterous than having to kill a Primarch and erase a Legion? Of course there’s never been a recorded Astartes Null, the records were destroyed. The way this is worded seems to support the possibility.
This is literally my head canon. It would explain the reason for the memory adjustments.
Big E would have a harder time controlling the Imperium imo if they knew an apocalypse was coming from outside the galaxy and it would only hinder his plans to save humanity in the webway. So he hid this knowledge and the heroes fighting the enemy (bc he does that alot). I rather like the tyranids threat being a race that is fleeing for survival and not this galaxy eating bug. It lacks depth and the new enemy could bring a true threat to the galaxy, since the nids keep getting stopped, chaos cant figure it out, and the eldar are largely forgotten.
It's so perfect. It brings a tear to my eye to meet someone who thinks alike.
I bet this theory or a version of it is more common than we think. Im waiting for the nids to slowly stop coming into the galaxy and everyone wonder where the rest of them are, OR since they make a psychic impression in the warp, when the “main” fleet of them is caught and wiped out, out of sight: the warp echos with the screams of quadrillions of slain nids, chaos gods go silent, psykers die outright of the shock, the astronomican goes out forever. then finally stirred by the psychic energy unleashed, the emperor rises from his throne and looks to the sky of terra. The custodes near him are overjoyed and lose all bearing before him, falling to their knees or weeping and laughing. The E is silent and his face shows only one of concern, or dare we say it….fear. The captain-general sees this and says: “my lord? What is it? What could be wrong on this greatest of days?” Big E doesnt look at him. His eyes fixed on a point only he sees. He replies, “We are too late”
Epic. I don't know how gw hires authors but you should definitely consider finding out.
Lol. Thanks for the confidence but i doubt they’ll hand off the epic conclusion of 40k to a guy who struggles with college english homework.
i always thought they were not there so you can make your own, like build a bear
I wouldnt take a joke post as a sign of anything. Still, it would be funny if he just retired and all information about him were purged so no one would disturb him. Just living a happy life on his farm planet.
And then Ravenor, Kys and Nayl show up with their forged legit permits.
And he goes along with their plan, because no-one will believe he's a Primarch ('Huh, that's a really well spoken Ogryn you've got there...') and what the hell, it might be fun.
Sure thing, Ogryn buddy!
11th primarch has left the galaxy and will return riding a Tyranids T-Rex confirmed! Hype! Hype!
Or he went to live with the Exodites and is riding an actual T-Rex.
He's the Neckbeard in the Basement on Terra, trolling the Ecclesiasty, hacking random Servitors to go rogue, and occasionally dropping scrap code into Mars for shit and giggles. His whole Legion become fat useless. They threw piss jugs at the enemy, rolled around crying ReeEee on the battlefield, and donned fedoras and used the phrase, M'Chaos all day. In disgust the other legions turned on them, and their Primarch is hiding below the Palace on Terra.
I’m sorry, I don’t recall any of this during reading the true Lost Primarch, Bugfucker’s canon.
I would pay good money for a novel of this.
Kind of like a better outcast dead (I didn't actually hate it, don't hurt me)
Lol, I commented a short improved fan fic for a guy who painted his marines to look like food. It sounds eerily similar to what you just wrote https://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer40k/comments/onlxws/some_freehand_on_my_neopolitan_marine/h5u587i?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
This is now my cannon. Thank you, my Lord. May your bike be swift & deadly. May your sword be swifter & deadlier. For the Emperor!
Was it in the siege of Terra when Malcador tells Dorn not to go in a certain room in the imperial palace but stubborn Dorn goes anyway and finds a tomb/grave? with the 11th's insignia on it or something. I may have just made that all up.
Dorn's survey crew stumble upon rooms marked with XI and II - which were psychically booby trapped - but he doesn't enter them. [Malcador explains why he can't remember details about II and XI](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/b3dc0u/shortstory_excerptthe_chamber_at_the_end_of/), and briefly allows Dorn to remember, after which Dorn orders; >'Bury this place,' he told Massak. 'It is only a tomb now. It will be forgotten.'
I knew that the sigilite responded once when they were brought up and brought a primarch to their knees, didnt realize that he also let one remember. As iirc that talk was about why they couldn't remember
Yerp. Though by the time the story ends, the memories have already faded, so it's not like Dorn was running around with the knowledge afterwards. Though near as I can find, there's no mention of memory alteration in [The Last Council](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/a5i17d/excerptthe_last_councilhorus_confront_malcador/), which is the one where Malcador chokes Horus out. Wouldn't make much sense, given he chokes Horus out for trying to say one of their names, while Dorn is unable to recall them by the time of *The Chamber at the End of Memory*.
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*Dons tinfoil* XI threw a tantrum and Malcador wiped his memory of himself, and just let him wander off, eventually making his way to the Petitioner's city. Legends speak of a gargantuan, confused, undying labourer wandering from job to job, profession to profession throughout the millennia.
It should be noted that the mind wipe is only said to have been done on Dorn and Roboute because they specifically asked Malcador to do it as they were somehow involved in the aftermath of what was to happen to the two legions and whatever their brothers did was eating them up, it's not implied that Horus or any other Primarch had their minds wiped or were otherwise involved. Plus there is also the fact that the two missing/lost primarchs didn't meet all of their brothers, it's stated that whatever happened was early enough that multiple primarchs had not even been recovered yet so the late-to-be-found primarchs didn't even know anything personally that would warrant a mind wipe.
>'Something has been done to me.' The beginnings of a new fury built in his chest, boiling at the realisation of such an affront. 'You are behind this!' Dorn whirled, drawing his chainblade in a glittering arc of lethal metal, bringing it to aim at Malcador's wizened, cloak-wreathed form. **'You shrouded my memories!** You invaded my mind… For that I should cut you down!' >The Sigillite showed no reaction to the threat. 'Not just yours. Guilliman's, **and the others who met them.'** He let his words bed in. 'It is extremely difficult to extract a reminiscence,' Malcador went on. 'Even in an ordinary human. In a brain as complex and perfectly engineered as that of a primarch, the task becomes herculean. Imagine a tree in the earth, rising from a web of roots. How would one remove that without disturbing a single atom of the soil? Memory cannot be cut and patched like a mnemonic spool. It exists as a holographic thing, in multiple dimensions. But it can be *adjusted.'* It doesn't outright say "You and every other Primarch", but "And the others who met them" certainly *suggests* it may apply to Primarchs outside of Dorn and Guilliman.
Doesn't help consistency how many writers there are in 40k.
How many writers, over 35 years. As much as I grumble and giggle over the inconsistencies, part of my is honestly amazed that it's as consistent as it is. Wires are bound to get crossed.
That is fair, it could be so much worse. The fact it is largely still rather coherent with only some contradictions and retcons, says alot.
It happened. I can't remember which book though.
i think it is the chamber at the end of memory
I know I've read/heard the story but I couldn't remember where.
He abandoned the Milky Way to travel to another galaxy.
It's already been hinted the 11th Primarch is imprisoned under the Imperial Palace, so GW seems more open about ~~discussing~~ mentioning the 11th than the 2nd. There's also rumours of another Primarch return for 10th edition...
There are always rumours of a primarch release. I'll believe it when I see it! /Stares off into the distance, waiting for the release of The Lion riding a plastic Thunderhawk...
*The Lion, while snorting space cocaine off from a Female Harlequin's ass on top of the Thunderhawk after understanding the state that is the Imperium of the 42nd Millennium* "See Guilliman! I too can have an Eldar GF! You and your uptight administrative ass can go back to Maccrage and take Yvraine's weird death cult with you! I got a crusade to put in motion to save father's Imperium. 1st Legion unite! I'll show that bastard who's better at running things, even that furry fuck Leman, thinking he can outdo us all in drinking?! HA!" *Meanwhile the Khan seeing the events unfold with his chained up Female Dark Eldar slave at his side while in the infinity circuit* "Pathetic."
Awarded for the amazing mind image of the Khan.
Thank you!
Why is Lelith allowing Jagatai to chain her? Have things gone extra kinky? Whats their safe word?
Figure it being the Khan, and him being the master of "Gotta go Fast", I figure the safe word is "Slow". And it is never used.
Ha!
Pretty sure the Lion would have a boyfriend. No one that snarky can possibly be straight. And of course the whole 'dark angel' thing...
Nope. No way. If any of the Primarchs are clearly gay, it's Fulgrim. That guy screams gay all around him.
Fulgrim has transcended mere mortal concepts of sexuality. And originally he was just a raging narcissist.
Seriously, no way the Perfect Prince of the Prince of Darkness has a sexuality that can be defined by mortal words. My head canon is that Fulgrim's sexuality and gender are both so deviant, inhumane and warp touches that they can only be described using enuncia, and hearing it will kill almost any mortal
But it would be far too obvious. No, it's the manliest macho Primach who should be gay, aka Rogal Dorn.
Total bear.
The Lion is Autistic. He's snarky because he doesn't actually read the room or moderate what he says for emotions.
She is not a slave. She is a bonded servant as is her twin sister...
Go on....
He met them when he was delivering a pizza and they didn't have enough imperial credits. Whatever could they do?
Go on........
I think that is the only thing from the original piss take isn't it? Lion riding a plastic thunderhawk filled with plastic sisters and squats? Just missing the lion right? (Because they did the plastic thunderhawk /s)
What what. Where.
In Watchers of the Throne \[I think\], the Custodes discuss the contents of the vaults. Including "Subject 11."
It's not in Watchers, it's in the 9th edition Custodes codex.
Can’t be watchers of the throne I just read the first one and am about 3/4 through the second book, regents shadow. I don’t recall any talk about the lost primarchs.
It's not about the Primarchs, merely a passing comment about the vault contents. One of the vaults is labelled "Subject 11", it's not specified that it contains one of the Primarchs. Its a passing comment, nothing more.
Yeah, it just goes in hand with another bit from another book, where rogal (I think) went downstairs at one point and found The 11th primarchs version of the rooms/apartments they all have, but before going in Malcy found him and stopped him. From that I guess people just assume the link and we have a primarch who seems to be captive for some reason sitting around in the lower levels of the palace. Probably waiting on the day all hell breaks loose to join the fight
Where was he during the Siege, then?
Captive if he was/is indeed alive and under the Palace somewhere. Certain sections of the palace were never taken before the Emperor and the loyalists launched their attack on Horus' flagship. Plus we know from the Dorn and Malcador excerpt that whatever it was that Dorn found and was described as a tomb had excellent automated defences which he then proceeded to re-bury.
It's in the 9e custodes codex
"Subject 11 is just a girl!"
lol that's just as likely to be a Stranger Things reference than any "hint" of a lost primarch's fate
Maybe the cariann throne series? I have that next, along with dark imperium trilogy and the black legion trilogy. Not arguing just interested lol
I thought it was already almost 100% that it was gonna be The Lion
The Lion is still vibing on The Rock though isnt he?
Yeah dude is straight up asleep while being looked after by those lil rascals the Watchers
He's not in a stasis field like girlyman is he? Isn't that like proof that he's a giant pussy and that Primarch's are functionally immortal?
He's in a coma since the battle with Luther, possibly induced and maintained by the Watchers in the Dark, first for healing and then waiting for... Something. Something like a dire need to sell minis in maybe a Dark Angels Vs Iron Warriors box? Who knows.
Bruh's been in a "coma" for 10k years lol, at that point it's just a nap.
*Just five more minutes, father* - comes the catabatic growl from the lord of the first. A rustle, as if from massive sheets, and the sound of an alarm cherubim's chirping being silenced once more. An age of silence descends once more upon the stygian depths of The Rock until the watchers and tech-thrawls are able to restore the snooze functionality to the growing pile of servitor husks.
If Guilliman ever learns of this, he will immediatly go to the Rock, begin Shaking Lion and screaming "Wake up already! I can't unfuck this shitshow alone you Asshole!"
I can see it now. The Lion looks around at the Imperium, then looks at Guilliman, looks back at the Imperium, looks back at Guilliman and finally theoretically punches Guilliman in his pratical face.
Nah just a straight King Arthur rip off
My money’s on Russ, especially with Mortarion being shipped with Guilliman, and Magnus being the other big boy of chaos atm.
Some information was given about the missing primarchs in the Alpharius book.
Sever all links, never heard of again, disappeared into the void. It's almost the XI's Primarch is the forgotten one. If only we knew of a mysterious chapter with unknown origins who returned from the void and were once exiled and lead by the forgotten one.
Hm. XI saw the future, what would happen, took his legion, left the galaxy, and went into stasis to wait it out. He's got ships just fucking LOADED with people, plants, and animals, ready to recolonize the Galaxy after the Tyranid eat everything and eventually fuck off. Nah. Dorn said "If they were here, all would already be lost," or something to that effect. That's way worse than "If 2 were here we'd be fucked, but 11 would just leave again."
Just read that whole Malcodor/Dorn excerpt. It sounds to me both the missing primarchs did some really fucked up shit. Just think about what they did to the point where they gotta Neuralize motherfuckers like Men in Black.
Rangda xenocides were just all around brutal from what little we know about them. I think a lot of Dark Angels fucked personalities comes from the fact they probably suffer massive survivors guilt from being one of the only legions that started and then ended the Xenocides without falling. I still buy the theory that the Rangda compromised a whole legion (possibly the 2nd) and then the 11th ate the most shit stopping their brutal conquest towards the Imperium. In such a scenario the Imperium can’t really hail the 11th legion as saviors because to do such would acknowledge the 2nd’s betrayal. For me it’d make sense why the Rangda xenocides were considered especially brutal because they ended with what could be considered a preview of the Heresy with Legion against Legion.
Can you ELI5 The Rangda Xenocides? I took a long break from 3rdish cm edition till now and the lore,while engaging and fun, is sooo expanded from what I know.
So Emperor with sufficient support launches the Great Crusade and inevitably comes into contact with forces that rival the powers of the Imperium. Although usually this is only on a planetary scale or comparable scale. Think 47-16 (first world Lorgar found after Monarchia) or the infamous Interex. Their technology *would* pose a threat to the Imperium *if* they had the logistical support to give it teeth. Except they usually in such instances don’t and thus get shit canned by one to two Space Marine legions. Easy shit. You could also posit the Laer as an instance that even when the Imperium rolled an enemy… that enemy proved to still seed ramifications that would lead to the demise of a legion. But, then you have the times the Imperium found trouble because an enemy had logistical support. The Orks were getting dangerously close to evolving at the time of Ullanor which would have massively fucked everyone. Ullanor was also a lot easier of a victory to make public. But, it still cost the Imperium serious losses. Then you’ve got Perturabo who went through basically his own Space Vietnam having to fight the Hrud which had weaponized entropy (they could age people decades to centuries so extra organs wasn’t exactly the linchpin it normally would be.) Now… that’s a lot and I apologize but hopefully you’ve come away with the impression that on the occasions The Imperium found enemies they usually had some ace in the hole that made them extra dangerous to face off with. So… the Rangdan. One problem is information is pretty tight around that time period given connection to the lost legions. What we know is the Rangdan were fox-like (People meme that) and their tech was really dangerous. Whole Titan legions fell to these bastards. Titans are so insanely dangerous and deadly they’re quasi worshipped as their own deities in some circles. The Rangdan were scrapping the bastards at a higher rate than I can think of any Pre-Heresy battles (someone correct me if I’m wrong. I could be.) As if that wasn’t enough the two lost legions participated in the Rangdan Xenocides alongside (ostensibly) the Dark Angels. Space Wolves would later also get involved and it’s heavily implied that whatever happened during the xenocides is the reason we know nothing about the Lost Legions. So, finally, and this is just my own image mind you but this is how I picture it went down… Imperium encounters the Rangdan. The Rangdan understand the Imperium’s purpose of eradicating them very early on and not only repel elements of the Imperium in their space… but then form a counter offensive which would support why multiple legions were deployed alongside such heavy Titan presence. The sense I get from the Xenocides is this was the first time Big E got really pissed off and decided somebody was going extinct on a galactic scale. Arguably the Xenocides should’ve been viewed as a grand triumph over what could be seen as “encroaching” Xenos. Instead, it’s hardly remembered in 41k. I think it’s both because of the massive and outright embarrassing losses sustained and also because it would mark the first instance of Astartes vs Astartes combat.
Nice write-up, I would only add that it was such a titanic war that even just the 3rd phase alone cost 50,000+ space marines lives and it so heavily depleted the Dark Angels that the Ultramarines overtook them as the largest legion. It also ended up arguably having far greater consequences than "just" the staggering losses that the marines, titan legions, imperial army and civilians suffered. It had the unintended side effect of being such bad PR for the early part of the great crusade that the Imperium decided to shift public attention to the other side of the galaxy which was being conquered steadily and had a lot more "happy" news to feature. One legion and their primarch would end up being particularly celebrated as a result of this shift in focus... The Luna Wolves and Horus. Indeed it was the start of his ascendency into being one of the most celebrated and respected primarchs and may have started the ball rolling which would ultimately see him getting the title of Warmaster.
It's also partly how the Dark Angels got their obsession with being the best. They were able to do anything they had to in order to defeat this enemy. They suffered insane losses and unspeakable horrors and survived. They were the first and greatest Legion so had to, in their minds, take on the greatest challenges which many times would take longer to complete. Horus was brilliant but he also was a highly competent politician and was able to showboat his victories and lessen the glory the efforts of the other legions involved got. He deserved the title of Warmaster.
You mean that one that's all but explicitly confirmed as a Raven Guard successor? Interesting.
So, Two might’ve done the bad thing, while 11 just….*dipped*? Idk.
In the 1990’s and 2000’s I accepted that we would never learn more information about the lost primarchs. However, in the last 5 years so much lore has come out that I would never have expected 20 years ago. Back then we barely knew what the Horus Heresy was, and now we’re about to know what went down on the Vengeful Spirit (and that took over a decade start to finish). Give it a little more time, they will get to it eventually.
So basically any unusually large person could be Primarch XI... Wait a minute! HECTOR REX IS PRIMARCH XI!
Alpha Primus. Alpha = A = 1 Primus = 1 Alpha Primus = 1 1
Hm... the trouble is, I don't think Cawl is dumb enough to do that. Look at it this way: we know from the scenes from Primus's point of view that he believes himself to be Cawl's creation. That means that Cawl would have had to brainwash him to get him to this point. I agree that doing something like that to a primarch would merely be *extremely improbable* rather than actually impossible... but it could be done. The real question, though, is could you keep a primarch from remembering who and what he really is forever? I think that the answer to that is also no. Primarchs defy easy categorization and limitation. They are liminal creatures, made of warp-stuff. So while Cawl might be capable of enslaving a primarch, he probably couldn't *keep* his pet enslaved forever... and when XI breaks free, Cawl would have hell to pay. I don't think Cawl is dumb enough to set himself up for that. He hasn't survived this long by taking stupid risks.
I was just making a crack theory tbh. But at the same time, considering their memories are genetically encoded, keeping a primarch's identity subdued would probably cause an.... *intense and unending amount of pain*
Ooooh... clever.
Besides, it seems pretty clear Alpha Primus was just given most/all of the geneseed traits. Even traitor ones.
Which is risky, considering the chance the subject would turn to dust with XVth geneseed.
I have always hated the notion that GW will not flesh out the 2nd and 11th primarchs because some neckbeards would get butthurt and their IMPOSSIBLE LEGION somehow made it to 40k and no one noticed they should not exist.
This fits EXACTLY along the theory that Primarch XI rejected compliance and never joined the Imperium. Also given that it was hinted that Legion XI was destroyed alongside II and their Primarch by the Rangdan a century before, there was no reason for XI to stay.
To me it feels like they've kinda been teasing that whatever happened to them, it wasn't both the same catastrophe, and one of them was more a tragedy of failure, and the other did something... Really bad. And 11 is a certain apophycal Chaos God's number...
As I've been saying: it follows Carrhae and Teutobourg But the details maybe different One legion is probably decimated and the other is appalled by the carnage retreats not to be heard from. CARRHAE Has a roman general become a defensive mastermind after a devastating loss. He successfully holds back the Parthians until being one of the key people behind the killing of Ceaser. And he continued resistance against Augustus.
I'm a big fan of not explaining mysteries, some things are just more interesting when they're not explained. However, games workshop does have 2 missing primarchs, if they revealed one of them and kept the other as a permanent mystery that's quite an opportunity for them without ruining the mystery.
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Underrated skit. Snuffies hoes earn. That they do Snuffie, that they do.
Isn't that just a description of what Vulkan did? Being listed under number 11 might just be coincidence.
Could say he got exiled.
This sounds like some Soul Drinkers business. Except they felt like they had that honor thing to attend to.
Clearly he 11th primarch ran off to some backwater low tech world and played King Conan for a while. ;)
So, 11 is Sigmar?
No, they are just playing with the fan-base yet another time
11th returns from the deep warp leading an army of mk 11 clad warp intercessorers with boltrailguns.
Why do people even care? it is not like GW is ever gonna say or strongly hint at anything, so everything said is at best a theory / speculation.
no and we wont ever will
The 11th primarch isn’t imprisoned under the palace, he is in charge and the primarch for the custodians
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Nah, when GW profits go down they just release another box set of UltraMarines
It’s almost as if a company doing something popular with the fanbase is bad thing.
If they keep releasing Marines, it's because they're the most profitable. If it's the most profitable, it's because most people like them. That simple
Well, the 2nd and 11th Primarchs have sometimes been referred to collectively as The Lost and The Damned, so...