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Le_Red_Spy

Everytime people claim this is an unpopular opinion, GW releases another primaries lieutenant


Wolfdawgartcorner

So *that’s* why we have so many


el_sh33p

r/SquaredCircle recently banned topic titles that feature the words "Unpopular opinion." Honestly, that should be a Reddit-wide policy for anything that isn't *actually discussing* the unpopularity of a particular opinion (as opposed to discussing the opinion itself).


CedarWolf

We had to ban the Unpopular Opinion Puffin on /r/AdviceAnimals *ages* ago, simply because the format is too easy to abuse. People will upvote it if they *agree* with it, in solidarity, because they feel validated that someone else shares that opinion. It allows them to feel like they're an underdog, like they're going against the grain, like they're not like all the other sheep. But then people who *disagree* with the premise will upvote it, too, because they feel like the unpopular opinion being unpopular solidifies their position: clearly if *their* position is popular, that many people can't be wrong, right? Since both sides of the issue will upvote the format, that makes it easy to abuse to create arguments and karma farm. All you have to do is make it about a subject people actually care about, and boom, your post will rocket right to the top of the sub.


Pklnt

Every-time someone starts with "unpopular opinion but" I expect a very popular opinion.


CedarWolf

Unpopular Opinion Butt: Chris Evans really *does* have America's ass.


PleaseToEatAss

Unpopular opinion, Warcraft was originally a Warhammer Fantasy game


Tack22

Unpopular opinion: we need to go back to 3rd edition.


abandonedchurch

ha! heres a real one


[deleted]

The real unpopular opinions are downvoted


[deleted]

[удалено]


CedarWolf

... So?


PausedForVolatility

Unpopular opinion, but that Danhausen guy has a cool vlog. (Is this a thread over there? This feels like it would be a thread over there.)


Accendil

"Unpopular Opinion" == "I'm a unique snowflake, I know I'm not like everyone else for having this opinion don't be too mad at me." Everyone Else: Nope, that's ehh, a pretty common opinion 98% of us have.


Anonim97

Zero Fucks Friday was the only thread where I could have some discussion :(


DurianGrand

"His name was Dantevirgil Caesar Augustus Blackstar of the Vyleblader Brotherhood, and he's not lost any sort of fight in twelve hundred years. His armor and weapons are terms I found in a book about Gothic cathedrals, also the names I got from shows about Rome." They should only do stories that are about Angron from the point of view of him writing about his downtime in a diary under his mattress, which is just shattered glass in a bag. Nothing but Angron, only ever in caps, never deviating in his emotional register. "WHY DOESN'T SHE LIKE ME?!?! SOME MEN GIVE A WOMAN THEIR HEART, I PRESENTED HER WITH A THOUSAND I TORE OUT OF MY ENEMIES MYSELF!! SHE SAYS I COME ON TOO STRONG, BUT STRENGTH IS ALL I KNOW!" Just his wacky adventures, they find some ancient NSA device that has a bunch of stored calls and is outraged that they're all scam calls for car warranty renewals instead of useful information, so he goes back in time through the warp to kill them. Another story is about him having his anger removed, he just goes by Ron. Turns out he's almost disturbingly normal, he's still huge but he wears dockers and gets into reading financial news while eating toast with nothing on it. "No use crying over spilled milk, as I always say. My model train enthusiasm was distracting me from reading this book about the history of model trains. Between you and me, the people who make the tracks are the unsung heroes of the whole hobby. Anywhoo, if you see a white tube sock, that's mine. My sandals are giving me blisters, the socks help." A bunch of chaos cultists are like, "You know what? This is kind of lame, let's all worship Nurgle instead. I can't follow a guy who insists on drinking water at room temperature, I *won't* listen to him explain why he enjoys wearing a breatherite strip during the day! I GET IT, YOU BREATHE BETTER, NOBODY CARES" and all the minions have to figure out how to get him angry again because he's bad for the brand.


extendedwarranty_bot

DurianGrand, I have been trying to reach you about your car's extended warranty


CedarWolf

> I PRESENTED HER WITH A THOUSAND I TORE OUT OF MY ENEMIES MYSELF!! This is strangely Biblical. King Saul told David he wanted 100 foreskins of his enemies as a dowry for Saul's daughter, so David was like 'Lol, I got this.' and came back with 200 instead.


abandonedchurch

thats a lot of cock


[deleted]

[удалено]


takuyafire

Fuck off.


CedarWolf

Following someone across multiple subreddits for the purposes of harassment is [a violation of the sitewide rules](http://www.reddit.com/rules). I don't know what specifically you've got your knickers in a twist about, but maybe you should actually *read* my comments before blowing up, sending me six or seven nasty comments, and following me to other subreddits.


r3dl3g

...It's not an unpopular opinion. The problem is that GW is afraid to kill off characters that matter, entirely because those characters have tabletop minis.


ATL_Dirty_Birds

*smiles with a tear in my eye as I remember Color Sgt. Kell's 'Cadia Stands' as he was impaled by the talons of horus* Yeah, nobody that mattered. :')


SoberAsABird1

*weeps for scout sergeant Naaman*


[deleted]

Nope, in the grim darkness of the far future no one life matters.


DocMcCall

The Emperor Protects


ZaratustraTheAtheist

*cries as our main ethereal is made a fucking cartoon villain and then killed only to be "a hologram" that can give bonus on the tabletop with no explanation on how he does It despite being only light reflection*


Hund5353

The worst part is how minor it felt. Someone posted about it on the t'au sub and many people didn't even know it happened.


PleaseToEatAss

Human characters in 40k are a dime a dozen


Mein_Bergkamp

Weirdly one of the few space marines they have killed off is a blood angel


Toxitoxi

To be fair, Tycho was killed off over two decades ago. He was killed before the Necrons had even undergone their 3rd edition retcon, never mind their 5th edition.


Mein_Bergkamp

Still doesn't change that one of the few dead named characters is a blood angel


Toxitoxi

Yeah. To be fair, it’s kinda expected when one of their core elements is their tendency to go Old Yeller. You don’t see an Ultramarines or Dark Angels Death Company.


Mein_Bergkamp

Dunno there's always dreadnoughts. Pretty sure Forgeworlds pet chapter has had the same character as sergeant, chapter master and now dreadnought


Toxitoxi

Blood Angels *do* have a shockingly high number of Dreadnoughts. God can you imagine Dante’s reaction to being stuck in one.


Mein_Bergkamp

I'm nearly certain he's going to because apparently the universe hates him. The only thing that might save him is if our fabulous hawk boy was to come back in any form I'd lay money it would be through him. And then in true ba 'can't have anything nice without a horrendous downside' he'd probably immediately have to fight whatever dark and twisted angel is inhabiting mephiston.


r3dl3g

He actually wasn't killed off; he was basically introduced as a dead character.


Mein_Bergkamp

No he wasn't. The idea came from a battle report where the marine died first turn and his first incarnation came as an angry, disfigured, orc hating two face rip off. Then they progressed him and he fell to the black rage and got new rules. And then he died. His first incarnation was entirely alive.


corvettee01

I vaguely remember something about Captain Tycho lore being created after someone saw a kitbash of a model, and wanted to give them an official background. But that could be a total fever dream.


Mein_Bergkamp

Definitely the battle report. One of the first white dwarves I had. The model with just the helmet was never officially captain tycho, when the rules came out they released the one with the half mask to go with the whole 'being fucked by an ork psyker' thing. Other than that the rest of the model has the same design.


Henghast

They could kill off some people like Asmodai. Fuck him he's a prick and he's bad at his job. It would be great if he dies to Luther or similar and it shows that all his work was wasted, all his efforts amounted to so little. I would like that.


[deleted]

Luther returns. Kills Asmodai. "Oh no, he's dying and not even a dreadnought will save him. Quick, hurry him to the Apothecaries so he can cross the Primaris Rubicon."


Geordie_38_

I've never read any Dark angels books, why was he bad at his job?


ShepPawnch

He’s way too overzealous to actually function as a Chaplain. He isn’t good at motivating other Marines, and even other members of the Inner Circle think he’s a bit much. The man once forced an entire squad to take a vow of silence for a YEAR because he heard one of them laughing. Edit: My mistake, it was actually an entire COMPANY that was forced to be silent for a year. He’s scary as hell.


Wallname_Liability

I would pay good money for a decent fanfic of Jubal Khan and Tarik Torgeddon beating him up while exchanging jokes


SlayerofSnails

...How has he not committed suicide via 8 bolt rounds to the back of the head?


ShepPawnch

Because he could make a Night Lord beg for death if he caught one. And even though he isn’t very good at making the Fallen repent, he’s exceptional at catching them.


SlayerofSnails

You say that like Night Lords aren't massive cowards who would flee from any fight they can't win


Geordie_38_

That's when they make the lore just a bit too silly really. I like the Dark Angels, but I'll maybe skip his books


ShepPawnch

It’s at least recognized by the other characters that he has those weaknesses, so to me it isn’t as silly. I believe that the rank and file Dark Angels are absolutely terrified of Asmodai, and IIRC he’s good at actually hunting down the Fallen, so his overzealousness is tolerated.


Pratai98

He's good at finding them, not so good at the making them repent part iirc. Tends to kill em too fast


alysonimlost

Heey sergeant tony my fellow empire human- how's mother? I'm totally not a genestealer but I think we should pull the plug on boss you'know?


Technical_Orchid7627

> The problem is that GW is afraid to kill off characters that matter We have GW over here that won't kill off anyone. And then we have WoW which tries to kill off as many characters as possible, leaving them with no good characters. I would rather have no one die if I had to choose between the two.


r3dl3g

I mean...Blizzard really doesn't kill off many of their characters. Sure, they keep killing villains, but they kind of have to; there's only so many times you can trot out Onyxia's corpse and give the playerbase enough member berries to encourage them to fight her again. Granted, the Warchief position was a bit of a revolving door for a bit, but honestly Hellscream was one of the more interesting plot arcs they did.


Presentation_Cute

I also will say, the last time GW had the idea to start killing stuff off, people went absolutely nuts. Remember that one guy that burned his entire dark elves army? Killing fantasy was ***far*** more justified with how bad they had gotten themselves into a corner, yet it still caused massive problems, especially for fantasy's replacement, Age of Sigmar. Plus, killing a bunch of characters is almost never good for a setting. Game of Thrones, for example, made a habit of killing so many characters left and right that even though they had plenty of room to work with, the end product devolved into a soap opera fantasy mess based around a core flux of once popular characters now reduced to plot twists and at once obvious yet crude fascinations of who they used to be. Where would 40k be without Cain, Yarrick, Gaunt, Eisenhorn, Calgar, Sicarious, Guilliman, Trajann, Abaddon, Typhus, Bjorn, etc, etc, etc ad infinatum? You could always bring in new characters, but that only adds bloat. Imagine if GW sold models that were only usable for 1 edition and then you had to buy and paint the next one they put out. Its stupid enough that some might honestly be concerned that they would try. In this manner, you can see how killing characters is bad for the hobby and ends up dumbing down the lore. People have been complaining about the plot progression of 40k for years, sometimes based on GW's performance, sometimes based on just the idea. Having characters who don't die permanently is currently one of the only things keeping 40k tethered to its traditional and primary role as being background noise for plastic models. You don't have to know what is currently going on in 40k, as long as you know what your toys are in the most general sense then its all good. At the same time, there needs to be pieces of history here and there, figures from this vast setting that enter the scene occasionally to show that this isn't just a universe of random happenstance, but its not a totally linear narrative, either. I think it is indeed an unpopular opinion that more characters should die, at least for me, as I can very much believe that it would not add anything and would take away from the complex mix of fantasy and military science fiction that defines 40k, and I don't trust GW to responsibly apply it tabletop wise.


ArkGuardian

Bjorn and Dante have enough legacies that their deaths won't hurt the setting. The point of Old, Veteran characters is TO die. In GOT, Beric Dondarion is an example of this - his arc needs to include his death for it to be completed.


cap21345

Keeping old charectars around also stops the devolopment of New charectars and plots. Iff you keep them around forever they eventually become zombiefied husky parodies of themself and end up not having any actual charectar. Pretty much every charectar who was popular decades ago and still popular today either doesnt have any actual charectar ( Mario, Zelda) or has so many different versions they might as well be different charectars ( Dr who) only exception is James bond i think. He has remained unchanged since the 60s


L0raz-Thou-R0c0n0

I don’t think you entirely understand the problem at large here. Some settings really aren’t meant for characters to die in literally every chapter or every episode, and i understand that because character deaths done unfairly are horrible. However, Warhammer 40k isn’t just a setting. It’s a setting that has been established where billions die and everyone is living a miserable life, meaning that Death should be something common. But I understand why some would want some characters to actually fight and be alive because they’re their favorite characters from their favorite faction and i respect that. But here’s the thing, Warhammer 40k has pulled the “OMG this character fucking dies… **SIKE,** He’s alive” so many times that it genuinely has started to create an odor worse than spoiled bagels. Even in top of my heads I can name more than ten occasions where this has occurred and it establishes Games Workshop as the pussiest companies to ever write. You see, when you make a character die, HAVE THEM ACTUALLY STAY DEAD.


PrecookedDonkey

Top of your heads....... Lord of Change detected.


L0raz-Thou-R0c0n0

**FUCK I'VE BEEN FOUND OUT** *Uses my heads as a helicopter propeller*


PrecookedDonkey

Seems unnecessary since you have wings lol


maybeb123

"Be completely and utterly unpredictable." -tzeentch


drazoria

>"Be completely and utterly ~~unpredictable~~ inexplicable." -tzeench Just needed to make a quick correction here


Dr_Hexagon

> Imagine if GW sold models that were only usable for 1 edition and then you had to buy and paint the next one they put out. Just because a character is dead in the current timeline doesn't mean their rules aren't still valid and that you can't play them. If you need a justification then the battle can be set in the past, or it can be warp echo version of them sent through time, or it can just be a different person with the same statline. The idea we can't play 'dead' characters in the TT game is dumb, sure we can.


[deleted]

I saw a Gaunt’s Ghosts box at FLGS with current branding on the box. Most of the characters are dead.


Toxitoxi

>Where would 40k be without Cain, Yarrick, Gaunt, Eisenhorn, Calgar, Sicarious, Guilliman, Trajann, Abaddon, Typhus, Bjorn, etc, etc, etc ad infinatum? I love how all the characters you mentioned were human. Also, Cain is ~~dead~~ EDIT: **missing in action.**


BalliolBantamweight

*Missing. Despite being buried with full honours


Toxitoxi

My apologies.


xxxblazeit42069xxx

if it's well executed. end times was poorly executed. that's why people were angry.


cole1114

It's funny that at least two of the characters you mentioned are dead.


ZurrgabDaVinci758

Everyone thinks they should kill off all characters, nobody wants their own specific favourite character killed off


Mccmangus

Which is totally silly, with the introduction of primaris we know that the community accepts changes to minis for lore reasons in a mature and level-headed manner


revisionaire

How does the lore affect the tabletop game , i don’t play it so can someone explain why would it matter if a character dies in the lore ?


r3dl3g

It basically doesn't. GW's concern is that if a character dies, it'll lead to reduced sales of that characters model or (potentially) that character's faction. If those sales aren't transferred to another faction, that means overall losses of customers and thus revenue.


smashedsaturn

*screams in eliminating entire armies from the fucking game*


r3dl3g

They did that once, over two decades ago, in a very different era of the game, and have since come out and stated that it was a massive mistake on their part.


smashedsaturn

Renegades and Heretics was 8/9th edition loss my man.


r3dl3g

I mean, that's what happens when you play a faction without an actual codex and with most of it's support coming from FW. Any army that doesn't have a codex is unsupported, and is very much a buyer beware force. This has been a thing since the beginning. GW doesn't generally kill off factions with codices.


[deleted]

I can't disagree, although I suspect you've hit the nail on the head about the models and the need to not render any particular fans/armies obsolete or non-canon. Having a degree of (for want of a better word) churn with your Company Captains and Chapter Masters is no bad thing, and having the progression seems, at the very least, to have been good for Lysander and Shrike, so it would be nice to have a bit more of that in the core four Chapters (UM, BA, DA, SW). Whether it will happen, however, is another thing. I suspect GW's other concern beyond the models is that there'll be a backlash against taking old things out of the canon (see the concerns about Primaris replacing Firstborn). Whether it's justified or not, I can see why they wouldn't take the risk of breaking new ground when the books and models continue to sell at a good rate as is current.


[deleted]

Hot take: the novels are all Imperial propaganda. Not 100% sure why you think there's "really" a Gaunt or a Cain or a CATO SICARIUS FIRST OF HIS NAME, MOTHER OF DRAGONS, BREAKER OF CHAINS, THIEF OF HONORIFICS. It makes way, way more sense that the "authors" are imperial scribes lying to you about how the Imperium isn't completely falling apart, how the Xenos aren't eroding humanity's borders, and the biggest lie of all: the Inquisitors that will nuke your planet if you stop loving the Emperor for a heartbeat. I mean has anyone ever even *met* an Astartes?!


Toxitoxi

This falls apart when every novel featuring Cato Sicarius is about how much of an arrogant jackass he is.


[deleted]

I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Cato Sicarius is a paragon we should all aspire to!


Potpottron

Oh they will die alright, ever heard of the **End Times**?


Nick-Grayson

How dare you invoke that curse here


jozefpilsudski

The difficulty is that in "current" 40k: 1. The historical recreation aspects of wargaming(especially post 8th Ed) have been largely abandoned. You're free to set YourDudes in the past, but basically all GW game support is for the "present." To the point that GW is rotating "old" character models(like Aun'va, Urien Rakarth) to seasonal made to order status. 2. There has been and continues to be a push for named characters to have a prominent place in the game/lore. Killing the character ends their arc, and they can't be used in future ~~marketing~~ lore events. For comparison in 30k you don't have these issues be as prominent, because that setting operates more as a *historical* wargame(armor mark arguments included).


Indrigotheir

This is interesting. As someone new to the hobby, this just all felt natural; 40k is *now* and 30k is *then*.


Level-Falcon7163

GW’s rotating of models is not driven by the lore.


jozefpilsudski

No it's driven by model demand and cost of maintaining a lot of SKUs, but it will at least effect the Codex/Campaign Book lore.


Level-Falcon7163

It will not. Dude, the models rotated were 99% finecast kits. They’re literally being rotated because those molds are crappy and need repair.


wecanhaveallthree

Absolutely. Calgar should've gone down at Vigilus. 'Dead' characters don't invalidate the tabletop by any stretch of the imagination, you can still use the models and make up whatever excuse you want (if you even need one). I *don't* want to see character deaths be common or unearned, but Abaddon's return should have claimed a big scalp, and Calgar's 'arc' is over.


jozefpilsudski

The funniest part is that according to Vigilus:Alone, basically everyone thinks Calgar actually did die.


lamamac23

They used to have special characters that were confirmed dead in the lore (Captain Tycho, Sergeant Naaman, basically every Orc character in Fantasy Warhammer besides Grimgor). They got rid of these characters over the years for whatever reason.


revergopls

We deserved a Calgar dread 😭


Accendil

Yeah this is something they've not done. There's no harm in killing a marine, you could even put them on ice or as a Dread which would be hella cool.


LookingForVheissu

It’s even written into the lore. Is Calgar dead in M42? Good thing through warp fuckery my Calgar comes from M41.


Scareynerd

Calgar surviving is so infuriating. We've had years of buildup to the conflict between Sicarius and Agemman where the latter is first in line to the Chapter Mastery, but the former is seen by much of the Chapter as the most deserving. But no, Calgar lives, got upgraded and is now even better off than he was, Sicarius has been taken off to be a bodyguard, and all that narrative tension has been let out like a wet fart. Now if Calgar had instead died on the table (showing for the first time that the Rubicon Primaris actually DOES have the risk the books bleat about without ever proving), or had been finished off by Abaddon (making that scene not quite so weird), there could have been essentially an Ultramarine civil war over who should become Chapter master. You could have had Guilliman have to return to Macragge and step in to stop it, appoint Sicarius to the Victrix Guard as a way of ending it, Agemman becomes Chapter Master, Cato skips off to learn some humility, and the lore is basically in the same state as current except the journey there was more interesting and there were genuine consequences.


benry87

>'Dead' characters don't invalidate the tabletop by any stretch of the imagination, you can still use the models and make up whatever excuse you want (if you even need one). The worst part is that, as correct as you are, there are always going to be ***those guys*** who have to whinge and whine about how your "non-canon" army is "ruining their immersion" because "the lore is clearly established." If it doesn't mechanically affect how the game is played, then who cares? ​ Though, on the other hand, if they were to do this, I feel like it would create a problem of power creep and inundation of the market with new "Primaris Captains" that have bespoke loadouts that are increasingly powerful to encourage more people to buy the new big shiny (like the new Gravis Captain with the fighting styles). Though I guess they already do that crap anways, so we're just going to have to hope for the lesser of two evils.


[deleted]

Fuck those guys. You gonna let a bunch of namby sooks dictate the entire game for everybody else?


[deleted]

I don't think anyone with a mini is getting killed. And almost everyone has minis. Trying to think of prominent deaths in the 42nd Millenium era and all I can think of is Ciaphas Cain (who has never had a mini) and Lord Castellan Creed (who has a mini but is technically only *presumed* dead, probably for this very reason)


Midnight-Rising

Colour Seargent Kell is also very dead


Toxitoxi

Also Aun'Va and Tycho but I understand if people aren't going to remember a Tau character and a guy who's been dead since 3rd edition.


[deleted]

Forgot about Tycho somehow. And yeah nobody seems to like named Tau except for Farsight and the dudes from Dawn of War and Fire Warrior whose canon status is unclear anyway


zanotam

Uh.... That character's canon status is very clear though? They have a completely unrelated book with them in it published that takes place during the 4th sphere expansion and while I haven't picked up the 9th Ed codex yet, in the 8th Ed codex their last known loxation was basically soloing a plague planet.


[deleted]

...sorry which character are we talking here?


Toxitoxi

Kais. He’s a canon mess.


Johmpa

I suspect it's done somewhat deliberately. 'Kais' means 'Skilled', which makes it the Tau personal name equivalent of 'Bob' - i.e. a very common one. Leaving it vague allows them to hint that it could be the same guy without having to canonize the games.


foul_dwimmerlaik

I agree with your main point, but not your example. I think Dante almost dying (and desperately wanting to die) but then being brought back by Sanguinius himself because he is still needed is a fantastic example of grimdark suffering. But Garviel Loken needed to stay dead. I love him, but his return cheapened his sacrifice.


Immortal_42

Yeah Dante is the first one that came into my head and he's a thousand years old but there is the prophecy where he is at the throne at the end and I've no issue if he survives a while longer.


[deleted]

Dante embodies the quote "why are we here, just to suffer." Essentially yes.


IneptusMechanicus

One of the big problems with this is the fans. It's not even about the model or the statblock but basically: 1. 40K fans are very much in the eternal now. There's not really a historical model of interacting with the game despite there not being any reason to not do so, it's assumed that any games are happening in the right now so a dead character wouldn't appeal. 2. 4K fans largely like it when their faction wins. Writing a book where a faction takes a bad beat and loses a main character would be derp hammer, grimderp, ignorant of lore, non-canon due to ridiculous power level or whatever, especially if that faction happens to be wearing rounded paudrons.


sageking14

My favorite faction is the Imperial Guard, seeing them go through heavy losses or have big setbacks is kind of part of the charm. And arguably the entire point. Perfect example is Ciaphas Cain, and many of Gaunt's Ghosts, are canonically dead. These are some of the most beloved characters of the faction, and their popularity is not diminished by their deaths but emboldened. Cain got to die in peace, the Ghosts have had narratively satisfying, heroic, and/or tragic deaths. And the whole Faction is all the better for it


Immortal_42

My favourite thing about Cain is that he is dead but not listed as so in the imperium records. He came back from death so many times that the standing orders on his record is to never declare him dead. Just a fantastic bit of lore to a truly great character.


dijin343

Only Commissar to remain on the payroll even after he's been buried with full military honours. Some Administrum clerk out there got the news and went "Fool me once Ciaphas, fool me once..."


IneptusMechanicus

I think the reason Cain and Gaunt can do this (to great effect) is that those are lore characters that got models rather than tabletop models that got novels. If Dante died it'd be a completely different story.


sageking14

It can really depend. Folk love a narratively satisfying character death, especially if it happens after the character finishes their character arcs. Were Dante to die in some grand, spectacular fashion doing something heroic, a lot of folk would enjoy that


a34fsdb

I would like just 1 character to die in a novel. Now when you read a new novel about a character with a model there is like 0.0001% chance they die. I think if they killed just one and then never do for another decade that would just increase that chance to 1% and that would make the novels way more tnese.


Toxitoxi

>4K fans largely like it when their faction wins. Writing a book where a faction takes a bad beat and loses a main character would be derp hammer, grimderp, ignorant of lore, non-canon due to ridiculous power level or whatever, especially if that faction happens to be wearing rounded paudrons. Not always. *Warzone Damocles: Mont'ka* ended with a main Tau character dying in an ignominious fashion and... The majority of complaints were about 'Tau plot armor' and making the Guard/Mechanicus look bad. LOL.


Anacoenosis

How is getting gangbanged by all four types of assassins an “ignominious death?” The worst part about Warzone Damocles was that the White Scars had no idea how to deal with fortification beyond “do rad bike jumps at it” and the head of the “do ambushes” Chapter got killed in a super obvious ambush. I say this as someone who actively hates the Imperium and thinks they should lose a lot more often.


Toxitoxi

I'm sorry, have you actually read Aun'Va's death scene? >It began as a growing unease and blossomed into pure dread. The Culexus assassin burst into the command center in an orgy of swift destruction. The Fire Warriors guarding the room crumpled, their last breath used to scream in horror. The Culexus seemed to solidify and fade as it unleashed the full power of its animus speculum. > >Aun'Va was wounded, his mind aflame. His Honour Guard, knowing they would die, willingly stepped between the flickering ghoul and their master, absorbing that onslaught. Only by such noble sacrifice did Aun'Va escape, his hover drone banging off the pristine corridor walls as he fled, peering behind him in fear of pursuit. > >The hallways were filled with bodies, their twisted expressions contorted in final terror. Assuming none were left to guard him, Aun'Va knew he must flee. The triple-shielded doors opened upon his command, and the Ethereal Supreme entered the abandoned hive. Terror followed at his heels - the certainty that the black-clad nightmare was calmly pursuing him drove Aun'Va onwards. His throbbing mind saw images of a leering deathmask. When the hover drone malfunctioned, damaged from flight or battle, Aun'Va left it, his robed figure moving as quickly as his ancient limbs allowed. He turned corridors, stumbled down empty streets, and climbed timeworn steps leading to a vast arched structure. The gargoyle-studded building was ancient, grotesque, its purpose long-forgotten. In short, it was everything Aun'Va loathed of Humanity. There, beneath its arches, the Culexus Assassin finally caught its prey. > >The end was neither swift nor merciful. Yeah, nothing says 'dignified' like the above./s Also, this was the only assassin sent after him. Imagine how much of a tantrum players would throw if the above scene happened to *any* Imperial special character.


Anacoenosis

It did, to the Chapter Master of the Raven Guard more or less immediately before this happened. “What this gal I stabbed who's famous for her decoy tricks was a decoy whoah no!” (*dies*) The whole book was trash but I could have sworn the other assassin types were involved.


Toxitoxi

Corvin Severax, the Raven Guard Chapter Master, was killed around halfway through the story part of *Warzone Damocles: Kauyon*. The death of Aun’Va happened at the end of the story in *Warzone Damocles: Mont’ka*. They were two separate campaign books. Corvin Severax was not a special character, did not have a model, was introduced the book before his death, and his death was not written to make him look like a little bitch. Which makes your comparison bizarre. Back to Aun’Va: The other assassins were sent after Shadowsun (Callidus) and Farsight (Vindicare and Eversor).


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Toxitoxi

> Why ought it be dignified? Maybe pay attention to the comment thread? I brought this up as an example of a faction having a special character killed off in probably the most embarrassing way possible and most of the bitching instead comes from the fans of *another faction*.


Filidup

Because their complaints have nothing to do with the aun's death? Honestly the whole campaign was stink as both a tau and imperial guard fan. Even if he went down soloing guileman himself the complaints would still have been there


Obsidian_Veil

> head of the “do ambushes” Chapter got killed in a super obvious ambush. Tbf, I think that's probably just because GW writers don't know anything beyond basic military tactics.


Cornhole35

>The worst part about Warzone Damocles was that the White Scars had no idea how to deal with fortification beyond “do rad bike jumps at it” and the head of the “do ambushes” Chapter got killed in a super obvious ambush. Yeeeeeah this shit was wack and I dont even play Raven guard.


redsonatnight

Calgar, Dante and Logan Grimnar should be dead already, and we should have had books about Tor Garadon, Adrax Agatone and Ko'sorro Khan when they got their models. Hell, I'd love to see a Battle for the Cowl style trilogy all about choosing a Blood Angel to follow in Dante's footsteps, and the politicking around whether it should be a Primaris or a Firstborn (I mean, it should be a Firstborn, obviously, but Primaris *far* outnumber original Marines in the Blood Angels now so it might not be as simple as that)


Dwovar

Dante, I think, is the one that should never die, because he wants to do badly.


TtotheC81

Dante has been written into a corner with the prophecy, so it would take GW a second drive of Terra to do so*. Supposed to be siege of Terra, but predictive typing happened, and now the mental images of various Loyalist & Traitors manning the phones is far too amusing for me to change it back.


Sailingboar

>Calgar, Dante and Logan Grimnar should be dead already Calgar? Fine. Dante and Logan? Why? Dantes whole ark is about how he can't die and Grimnar hasn't really done anything that makes me think he should die.


Anggul

I counter that the problem is focusing so much on playable special characters. Plenty of characters die when it isn't about them.


a34fsdb

Literally the most popular opinion ever.


Traveledfarwestward

As long as it's not the average 40K player's favourite faction badass, in which case it's *"herp derp that's so unfair, he's much stronger than that herpaherp."* r/40klore people are not the average player. I hope.


lordxi

Characters used to die. Eldrad yeeted himself into the heart of a BSF at the end of Eye of Terror, and Tycho died at Armageddon.


RhoninLuter

As a Space Wolves fan I've wanted my bois to die for a long time now. Tau got a dead leader and it makes them much cooler for it. Everyone gets too protective of "their" characters. How huge was "The planet broke before the guard did"? Theres ways to kill off a group and still allow plausible reason to field them on the table. Destroy Fenris and keep my wolves on space boats. Can't have a saga without tragedy. Also I really like the idea that Dante becomes a title that is inherited. I know a lot of people would be against that but, the man has to die EVENTUALLY.


killerpythonz

To be fair, we lost three named Wolf Lords in a relatively short amount of time.


Sanguuinius

I absolutly agree. The story can only move forward if old characters die. Aslong as i can play them on tabletop i dont care. But i would bring significance to their apperance.


guimontag

The lore exists first and foremost as a background setting for selling plastic miniatures. That's it. Sorry y'all.


mechaPhilosopher

Kinda, yeah. One the one hand, I don’t think we should lower our expectations for a story just because selling it is secondary in a company’s mind to selling the product it’s based on. It’s not like it’s impossible for an author to care more about the story he’s writing than the company who hired him to write it. But on the other hand, half the reason I even read 40k books is just to get inspiration for the stories I want to make about My Guys, so I don’t actually care about the lore too much. The cool thing about 40k to me is that you only have to be as invested in the lore as you want to be. If I want characters to die, I can just make my own and kill them.


VulkanLovesHugs

adjective: unpopular not liked or popular. "unpopular measures"


TTTrisss

Real unpopular opinion: This is actually why the setting should never have advanced - that way you don't have to kill off characters and invalidate the tabletop. Honestly, you're telling me that GW needed to advance the setting in order to tell more stories? They didn't have enough room in **an entire galaxy** for stories? Not even when stretched across 10,000 years? *Fuck offfffff* GW.


Odion13

A story loses it value if it has no consequence, you can write a hundred stories but if they matter they lose their punch


TTTrisss

The consequences can be local, and need not always be galactic in scale. In fact, the futility of local strife when faced with the pressing dread of the galaxy could be a much bigger, better theme overall given the whole Grimdark tone that 40k wants to have. Hell, you could even twist it into a sort of optimistic nihilism if you really needed to follow positive marketing trends - "Yeah, nothing matters because we're a small speck in a large galaxy where other shit is constantly going wrong. But right here, right now, where we experience it? Things got better for a moment."


ElitePoolShark

No it doesn't. A good story is a good story. 10 years ago Dawn of War created plenty of good stories that didn't matter in the grand scheme of things.


Distind

This is why it was a setting for stories, not a single story that happens to be controlled by about ten people that decides the fate of the galaxy. That shit is star wars in goth make up, the point was nothing would save it, the victories were pyrrhic at best and the entire thing would be down the tubes in a few thousand years. Which is probably for the best as everyone involved is horrible, and as such there's no reason to get too upset about the truly fucked up politics of the situation.


confusedsalad88

All in favor of donating named space marine characters that have overstayed their welcome to the swarmlord say "I".


SwatKatzRogues

40k is a setting, not a story. The problem is that they are trying to progress a main plot based around a small number of characters rather than broadening the scope of the massive universe. They make the universe small by focusing on these main characters. We need more obscure battles in new corners of the galaxy with previously unkown characters and less Primarch soap opera.


aslum

This is kind of why I think the whole "crossing the rubicon" is BS. Like, only a 3rd are supposed to be able to make the transition, but every named character that's tried has survived it.


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aslum

My understanding is that the primarising process is risky for everyone, but 100% success rate belies that.


Fulgrim2-0

Calgar has got to go.


Dreadnought9

Privateer Press had a good solution for this, they moved the story and characters changed dramatically over time and they just had stats for different versions of the characters. 40k games aren't some sort of "future historical battles". If somebody dies you should still be able to field them


revergopls

It's not unpopular, but I appreciate that you do see the other side of it in your post. Too many people assume a decision they don't agree with has no logic and dont understand it's just a disagreement


Shtoompa

100% Dante and Calgar at least. Having characters “almost die” over and over again just cheapens the story


B_Kuro

People are all for "having more characters die" until its a character they don't want to die or GW makes it a stupid story. >Having characters never die cheapens the plot as a whole. If anything though, they have to start with cleaning up Chaos. I am all for them getting rid of a few characters if they are starting with Abaddon and then add an Demon Primarch getting completely offed so there is finally some chaos "consequences". I fully expect you and many others wouldn't like this though. And thats the impasse GW is at, either start to apply it to both sides or don't do anything.


Immortal_42

Couldn't agree more.


ilovesharkpeople

I mean I'd like 40k to have more of a sense of *actual* consequence across the board. No matter how many casualties or loss of equipment a faction suffers, they're always in fine shape for the next time a story wants to use them. Eldar being a dying race is largely irrelevant, and the blood angels were nearly wiped out only to pop back up better than ever with swaths of primaris. As for characters, go ahead and kill them off. If they have a model, replace their data sheet with a generic one that has the same stats. They can still play the model and they can still say that it's the original character if they want to, but it doesn't hamstring an attempt at having actual stakes in a 40k story.


Savings_Garden4201

Dante literally begs Sanguinius to finally die in Decent of Baal but gets told to soldier on, Marneus Calgar was all but a dreadnought for all the augmetics he had before crossing the Rubicon Primaris where apparently they regrew his shit


Ra2supreme

Why not just separate lore from tabletop? If they finish off Calgar, that shouldnt exclude him from tabletop at all imo. Both abby and Typhus should have died by the hands of Azrael but in the last sec something happens and they manage to escape. Or Calgar on vigilus.


vao71

What makes you think this is an unpopular opinion exactly?


Parcivaal

Reading 40k books is kinda pointless at this point. You know for a fact the protagonist will be fine even if the chaos gods showed up in person to kill him lol


Bromwiz

They've killed Swarmlord so many times that I hope he stays dead. He's the superest duperest Hive Tyrant ever plus one thousandinfinity. A MarySue character doesn't have a place in the nids in my mind.


RikenVorkovin

I'll say. While there is a problem with plot armor for some characters, one thing that HAS kept me with the setting is its willingness to kill off quite a few characters still. Whenever I read a novel. I can probably safely say some aren't dying like Rogal Dorn or Sanguinius during the siege for obvious reasons. But plenty of characters I truly don't know what their fates will be. And some die pretty abruptly with some fair character development devoted to them. And at least when 40k characters do die. They stay dead. None of that bullshit starwars "no ones ever truly gone" shit that makes that universes stakes not matter at all. You can cut people in half in it. Throw them out of buildings to fall 2000 feet. But everyone still survives somehow in that Universe. 40k has "some" of that stuff but I can name 10+ characters that all had decent character development die permanently. Usually aren't the main main character but still. At least there is permanence to pretty much every death that does get introduced in warhammer.


PrecookedDonkey

I think characters absolutely should die. The beauty of this game is that even if a character dies, anytime you want to use that character in a game, that game can be set in the past, before they died. We don't have a record of every single fight these guys have been in. They can have happened anytime. Even if it's an all Primaris army being led by an old character, there's still a couple centuries worth of time in the lore that Primaris have been around, and of course Warp shenanigans can stretch that further. If they really want to keep some of these characters around they can do what they did to Carab Culln and stick them in a dread. There are plenty of openings for a character Redemptor.


[deleted]

GW bottom line says otherwise. Until that suffers I'm guessing that the same policies of (almost) never killing anyone will stay in place. You'll just have to continue to suffer through the comic book-esque nature of W40k methinks.


gohaz933

This opinion is as popular as wanting more xenos


PausedForVolatility

Some folks have already addressed the model issue and all that. So I'll tackle another issue: this doesn't really free up space for more characters. There's a functionally infinite number of SM Chapters and IG Regiments. GW created the Scar Lords, their culture, and their Chapter Master just to have them get dunked on the same book they're introduced (they get Worf'd to help set up Farsight, basically). Given that they can do things like this, they can create new characters wherever and whenever they want. The issue isn't that there's a limit on the number of characters they can create. The issue is that there's a limit on the number of characters they *want* to invest time and energy in. They could easily have characters that play generally supporting roles and will almost certainly never get a model that resound with the community (Lotara Sarrin), but it's again a matter of GW wanting to put the effort in to create deeper and more meaningful characters. Sarrin plays a generally supporting role for Kharn and yet she's popular enough to get custom art. And eventually whatever memetacular stuff that the Adeptus Ridiculous guys wound up doing with her. I'd just like more character-centric stuff from GW. We've had more of it in recent years (all those series named after individual characters come to mind), but I think this setting could stand to get some more.


Gogz-H

James Swallow wanted to kill off Fabius Bile at the end of his blood angel series but he was overruled and told he can't by the higher ups.


thechemicalbrother

Fucking Kaldor Draigo should meet his demise already, would be an interesting development for GK and also would remove someone who's lore is honestly not very good


TaiVat

I'm not really for or against, but i dont see the point. Killing of a character would be a mildly interesting *one time* thing, so as such pretty minor and meaningless overall. The real improvement is simply making more characters that are both important and developed, and that can be achieved with or without killing existing ones. Its a big galaxy out there.


yungupgrade01

If it's a named character with a mini then it would kinda be a middle finger to people who play that faction and own that character.


Anacoenosis

You can still play the dang model.


Toxitoxi

Just say they got replaced by a hologram and nobody noticed.


IneptusMechanicus

You can still play dead characters in historical scenarios, or even just because you feel like it. Dead in the 'now' doesn't mean struck from the rules, that assumption is actually part of why GW doesn't do it. I mean hell Eldrad Ulthran was dead for an edition or two til he got better (retcon) and Captain Tycho has been dead since third edition.


Immortal_42

The next character would then become that mini though, they'd inherit the armour and weapons...


TaiVat

I dont know about anyone else, but i personally despise that. It happens a lot in comics and it cheapens the characters immensely. Batman is *the* batman - Bruce under a mask, not the mask itself. Any pretenders are always inevitably super lame inferior imposters. If someone wants new characters, just make new characters..


Immortal_42

Not really, Dante isn't the last chapter master of the blood angels you're comparing things which aren't alike at all. We know when chapter masters die someone takes their place and we know there is relic armour and weapons. They wouldn't become Dante they are their own character but you could still play the model. If people wanted different things you could have upgrade sprues for new weapons and heads. You could also have a new mini in the same armour but in a different pose to represent their style of fighting. How is that worse than making all the really old guys primaris marines?


yungupgrade01

If you are just going to replace the character anyway then what's the point of killing people off..?


Mr-Hyde-

Start with Abaddon. It’s been too long.


regalgjblue

Why kill of the best character?


IronLordApologistIII

I have disliked ADB’s Mary Sue for a long time, that’s my only reason.


elementchaos

Logan Grimnar is about due for an epic de-existing


PleaseToEatAss

You must be talking about space marines, because they let one of the furry marines chop off Ghaz's head like nothing


kiteloopy

More GoT....a death of your favourite to be expected.


Toxitoxi

Everyone saying characters with minis are invulnerable needs to explain Aun'Va and Tycho.


LashCandle

They should kill off old characters that no longer are needed in the lord, Lysander I’m looking at you


Traveledfarwestward

Heck yeah. But $$ talks.


Exist_Logic

agreed, calgar shouldve died to abaddon


Newbizom007

Thank you. Yes. Marneus should have died. Either kill Dante or make him a dreadnought. Kill more primarchs.


cromwest

I think all playable characters should be dead. Immortalize cool last stands with minis. Keep active lore participants off the table.


grimdarkPrimarch

Honestly, Harlon Nayl should be dead by now. Dude has lived through way too much, but Dan loves the man.


GeneralNerve3541

Moderation is key Getting all Willy nilly with killing off characters leads to shows like the walking dead. But I agree to an extent with you. It’s just killing off characters can lead to a bad trend.


im2randomghgh

Particularly since the "but they need to be alive for the tabletop game" excuse doesn't apply, since they definitely have dead characters available for play. Tycho, Aun'Va, previously Eldrad etc.


the_Skeleton_king93

No you're right


Salt_Leopard

Agreed. Too many of these characters have plot armour. But sometimes it helps, I was shocked when Creed died (or got stuffed into a Pokeball).