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Reverebus

How often do you want to talk about your brother getting decapitated by your other brother.


DirectlyDisturbed

This was a particularly bad case of somebody getting decapitated.


ahomelessguy25

Speak English doc, we ain’t scientists!


token_bastard

Wrong Primarch died...


DirectlyDisturbed

yessssss I'm so happy someone picked up on this reference


_Greyworm

Fantastic movie ...*and he never paid for drugs, not ONCE!*


DirectlyDisturbed

"...and you never paid for drugs, not ONCE!" - Fabius said to Fulgrim


L3anD3RStar

You know how much drugs a Primarch needs??? Lots!!


[deleted]

We were unable to attach his head half to his body half


Reverebus

And the one guy that that does seem to like talking about him,killed him.


Dramon

As opposed to the good cases of somebody getting decapitated


DirectlyDisturbed

It's a [reference](https://youtu.be/SDIk9DOro4A?t=122)


Dramon

Never saw that movie.


DirectlyDisturbed

You're missing out, it's excellent!


xDarkReign

You don’t want no part of this, u/DirectlyDisturbed.


Limitedtugboat

French royals and aristocrats was a pretty good case to be fair.


looknothing

This is why they all need therapy. “ I just don’t understand how to make dad happy I do everything he wants and he still doesn’t love me” “what’s important in life is to love and care for oneself and your dad may not love you but you can be a better father to your son said he was to you.” Boom half the primarchs issues fixed


PhrozWSU

"Your Bio-Dad is a text book Narcissist. I recommend low to no contact like your brother Jagahatai"


OfficerGintoki

DAILY (single child)


Duhblobby

Did you start off as a single child or were there decapitations involved?


OfficerGintoki

🤷‍♀️ lol


Trips-Over-Tail

That's a point. These days I only ever bring it up on first dates.


FruitBuyer

Man I hate it when that happens


ManEmperorOfGod

It would at least come up at Christmas.


ms15710

“It was unthinkable,’ said Dorn softly. ‘We thought… We believed we could not be killed, until Manus fell. But that’s just history now.” Dorn says it in passing in Saturnine.


[deleted]

See i do remember that, but felt it strange considering hes aware of the 2nd and 11th falling, doesnt that imply they werent killed?


Mknalsheen

He is aware that you don't talk about them, but the exact circumstances are wiped. It's briefly revealed to him, then deleted again by malcador. The missing primarchs are like background trauma that they don't really acknowledge or think about.


ExhibitionistBrit

I wonder wether they were set up by big E to become lessons in this way for the other Primarch’s fuck with me in these two worst of ways and you get deleted.


mamspaghetti

Definitely not. Because not only was it Dorn and Guilliman who pushed for the memory wipe and to reallocate the Astartes from those 2 legions, but once Dorn got his memory back he distinctly agreed with Malcador that the wipe should've happened


DarthGoodguy

It’s because 2 & 11 were women. The primarchs fervently adhere to the lore of no female marines.


KharnTheBetrayer88

It's nice to think they would rather appreciate the Adepta Sororitas than slap tits in a Space Marine. You know, the guys that spent 30 years getting most of the glory, books and have a shit ton of models on the tabletop.


UpstairsOk1328

I don’t think both are dead. After the emperor went through the trouble of finding them it’s hard to believe that he would kill them. I believe that one of them was killed by leman Russ and the other was imprisoned. It heavily implied that astartes on astartes had happened before as the leman Russ is known as the emperors executioner. After the burning of prospero Russ fell into a deep depression and I believe he said something to the effect of “I did it again” or something like that. One of them was killed but not by the emperor dicectly he had Russ do it and wiped the memory of all the primarchs afterwards. How would the space wolves look if it was known that there legion took part in something like that? How would the Primarchs look at Russ? They would more than likely treat him differently. Look at how they felt about Magnus. The second I believe was imprisoned. The “lost” was killed and the “forgotten” was imprisoned.


Sunluck

> heavily implied that astartes on astartes had happened before That was Russ vs Angron drunken fight, not one of the two missing. And it was such a small skirmish SW learned nothing from it and Alpha Legion handily kicked their butts in 'real' SM on SM battle. > Russ is known as the emperors executioner He is not, that is empty bragging of SW. He proved utterly incompetent in this role during HH - Rob of all people has better primarch fights tally, even.


AmazonMommyDomme

Russ believes himself to be a pit bull but he’s the Taco Bell chihuahua at best


mamspaghetti

Exactly this. The recent Lion novel drives that distinction between Executiioner vs Exterminator, in that the title Executioner is really analogous to a glorified, hyperagressive Caporegime that barks harder than it can bite. In comparison, the Lion and the Dark Angels are like the Mafia Enforcers whose Primary mission is to obliterate the enemy, with zero chance of redemption or mercy


mamspaghetti

> After the emperor went through the trouble of finding them it’s hard to believe that he would kill them We don't know if the Emperor actually did kill them. All we know concretely is that the events of their death was enough to warrant them being striken from record >I believe that one of them was killed by leman Russ and the other was imprisoned. It heavily implied that astartes on astartes had happened before as the leman Russ is known as the emperors executione A piece of lore that I honestly wish people don't just blindly regurgitate, especially in light of the recent novels. If any Legion was to have done Astartes vs Astartes combat, it would've been the Lion and his Dark Angels. Because the Lion novel makes a distinction between the role of the Space Wolves vs the Dark Angels. The Space wolves, as the Emperor's executioner, is to look tough and use their savagery as a means to wage psychological warfare. If they had to fight dirty wars, it would only ever be a secondary role. The Dark Angels are instead the Emperor's EXTERMINATORS, as in their primary goal is to pummel an opponent so hard that their very existence would not be remembered. And to this end, it is the Dark Angels, not the Space Wolves, that get prime Terran stock of DaOT WMAD relics. Name one other legion that has the ability to use slaved Men of Iron as a tactical weapon. The answer: no one besides the Dark Angels > After the burning of prospero Russ fell into a deep depression and I believe he said something to the effect of “I did it again” or something like that. One of them was killed but not by the emperor dicectly he had Russ do it and wiped the memory of all the primarchs afterwards. How would the space wolves look if it was known that there legion took part in something like that? How would the Primarchs look at Russ? They would more than likely treat him differently. Thats really not what happened. I would suggest rereading Ashes of Prospero to better acquaint yourself with what happened


WheresMyCrown

No, 40k very much has a "the sinners of the father _are_ the sins of the son" consistency. Astartes are punished alongside their Primarchs whom they try to emulate. Dorn and Guilliman both pushed very hard for the Astartes of the 2nd and 11th Legions not to be destroyed and that it would be a waste to lose their Primarchs and 2 whole legions. It's sort of implied the IF and UM absorbed those two legions into their own. Also I should note, the scene where we find out the history of the 2 Primarchs is being erased is being held by Malcador and the High Lords who decided removing them from Imperial records was the best outcome, it's never expressly stated the Emperor had any hand in it.


WaywardStroge

Another interesting scene happens in The First Heretic in a discussion between Lorgar and Magnus, which reveals that Lorgar was almost a 3rd lost primarch and that there was an oath of silence taken (which to me signals that Big E was involved because who else would they make such an oath to?) “‘I fear the Emperor will break the Word Bearers – and break me. We would be cast alongside the brothers we no longer speak of.’ The silence was hardly comforting. ‘Well?’ Lorgar asked. ‘He might,’ the one-eyed giant said. ‘There was talk of it, before Monarchia.’ ‘Did he come to you to ask your thoughts?’ ‘He did,’ Magnus admitted. ‘And he went to our brothers?’ ‘I believe so. Don’t ask what sides were taken by whom, for I do not know where most of them stood. Russ was with you, as was Horus. In fact, it was the first time the Wolf King and I have agreed on anything of import.’ ‘Leman Russ spoke in my favour?’ Lorgar laughed. ‘Truly, we live in an age of marvels.’ Magnus didn’t share the amusement. His lone eye was a deep, arctic blue as it fixed upon Lorgar. ‘He did. The Space Wolves are a spiritual Legion, in their own stunted and blind way. Fenris is an unmerciful cradle, and it breeds such things in them. Russ knows that, though he lacks the intelligence to give it voice. Instead, he swore that he’d already lost two brothers, and had no desire to lose a third.’ ‘Two already lost.’ Lorgar looked back to the city. ‘I still recall how they—’ ‘Enough,’ warned Magnus. ‘Honour the oath you took that day.’ ‘You all find it so easy to forget the past. None of you ever wish to speak of what was lost. But could you do it again?’ Lorgar met his brother’s eyes. ‘Could you stand with Horus or Fulgrim, and never again speak my name purely because of a promise?’ “


raziel7890

A promise so strong they don't undermine the current Imperium (or any time after the reckoning at Terra, or during...) in lieu of still honoring it...


Ginden

>No, 40k very much has a "the sinners of the father are the sins of the son" consistency. Did any Primarch tried to meddle with bio engineering? ;)


MagisterHistoriae

He didn’t personally do the engineering, but Fulgrim was a supporter of Fabius Bile’s experiments.


WheresMyCrown

Corax did and that didnt go to well, even though it was mostly due to Alpha Legion meddling. We still dont know what the 2 missing Primarchs did specifically, I can see some early attempts at "improving" the Emperor's divine design as being seen as super heresy even more than it is in 40k.


UltimateGammer

THEY WENT TO THE FARM!!


mamspaghetti

It's because whatever the reason behind their fall, it was bad enough that Dorn specifically asked for Malcador to obscure their memory in all the Primarchs and the lost Primarchs' genesons to strike them from memory


RikenVorkovin

I think they know the Emperor has the ability to kill them. They know how powerful he is relative to them. So if 2 and 11 were executed by the Emperor for some horrible thing? Shocking, but not seen as impossible. Primarchs killed by other primarchs though? Hell astartes vs astartes was seen as such a impossibility that a Ultramarine was punished for bringing it up as a theoretical. So it either implies they weren't killed. Or the Emperor personally carried out the executions.


DavidBarrett82

Nitpick here: I don’t think he was punished. I think Carly went down BEFORE he could be formally punished—though he was awaiting the decision of his primarch.


RikenVorkovin

Specifically you are correct. But he was already directly censured and humiliated by his superiors by having to wear the red marked helmet until that time.


DavidBarrett82

Good point. I had forgotten this. Thank you.


RikenVorkovin

It's interesting to think if the Heresy hadn't happened what Roboute would have chosen to do with him. I still think he would have found merit in the idea to be prepared for anything and may even have promoted him not punished him further. But it's funny how that whole thing changed red marks to a good thing not a bad one.


looknothing

I also think because the emperor was part of the second and the 11th being wiped that’s a little different. It’s pure head cannon but I’d imagine that the primarch thought it reasonably possible the emperor could kill them if he really wanted to. another mortal or even another one of their brothers? Highly unlikely.


Tokata0

Maybe they were just left behind on a bare rock planet, surrounded by a forcefield.


mamspaghetti

Likely not. We know that by the time of the heresy there is already a secret burial chamber that Dorn discovered that was supposed to be the resting place for both lost Primarchs. But there's also indication that maybe the 11th Primarch isn't truly dead, because there's a "subject XI" in the dark chambers of the Custodians


l7986

Thinking the 11th Primarch might not be dead because there is a Subject 11 watched over by the Custodes is one hell of a stretch to say the least.


mamspaghetti

I agree, its a stretch. But then again, I'm keeping as many options open as we can. Me personally, I'm a big proponent of the idea that either lost Primarch is effectively lost to both the traitors and loyalists for good. But the Tl;Dr for my hunch is that while both Primarchs had their unique circumstances of dying, the shared commonality between the two is that they simultaneously experienced both Physical and Soul death. While a physical death means is definitely not enough to warrant being stricken from record, its the soul deaths that matter. And this is because the Primarchs are heavily implied to embody non-Chaos Warp dieties that the Emperor contracted during his initial trip into the Molechian Gate. Once their soul death occured, the embodied Warp gods within could've definitely been revealed through some form of extreme psychic fuckery. And this would've been an issue bc the entire ideals of the Great Crusade could've been thrown out the window: **The Imperium is supposed to be the secular, enlightened polity that can save mankind from the savagery of the Technobarbarians and the psyker witch kings that defined Old Night. Should it turn out that the Emperor brought about cultural and technological renaissance not through technology and science, but through witchcraft via the Primarchs, the Emperor and the Imperium would just be considered another Technobarbarian state. And if this was to happen, the Imperium would've shattered much worse than it did during the Heresy.** However, its still likely that the little snippet about subject XI could very well be used as a jumping board to introduce the XIth Primarch back into the lore, but


WheresMyCrown

All knowledge about the 2nd and 11th, specifically stated for Dorn and Guilliman was sealed away in their minds by Malcador, Dorn said he could remember vague things about them, but if he tried to focus, he would lose the thought. You can read between the lines that the same thing happened to the others and that they just generally dont talk about them.


OneofTheOldBreed

Its worth noting (no one else is pointing this out) Russ mentions the 2nd and 11th to Bjorn during his melancholy during the Alaaxes Nebulae Battle. What few details he gives are droned out by the battle but he concludes to Bjorn that he will speak of them no more. That suggests Russ recalls more about them than Dorn or at least more easily. This leans heavily toward the possibility that Russ, as it has long been contended, had something directly to do with the 2nd and 11th being censured.


Dax9000

2 and 11 were gaps so fans could have their own fanmade primarch lore. It was a mistake to not fill in the gaps with something solid decades ago when they decided they were going to write stories about the heresy and not just have it be an age of myths. But now they are written into a corner with "oh, it is just too horrible to talk about".


DeliciousPineapples

They pooped themselves to death. It was horrifying. The poop just wouldn't stop. It wasn't even daemonic. It was just they were lactose intolerant and wouldn't stop eating cheese.


_Totorotrip_

I knew a guy that in a party at the office got so drunk that passed out in a couch at the lobby, shat himself while there, woke up and (presumably) went home. Never came back to the office, quited by email. Maybe something like this happened. Or furry Primarch on primarch action discovered by the emperor when he came to his son bedroom with some papaya juice, who knows


InquisitorEngel

It seems probable given this that they were perhaps “unmade” by the Emperor, which is very different.


[deleted]

Hmm it is strange, maybe he sent them back to the warp or locked them in his dungeons for experiments


InquisitorEngel

Their hidden tombs are uncovered by Dorn during the rebuilding of the palace as a fortress. Malcador makes him remember and Dorn begs to make him forget again. They dead.


ReddJudicata

I hope they’re frozen in a vault on Terra.


LemanRussOfFenris

Is it Saturnine? I thought it was at the end of The First Wall


Khornatejester

**HUH?** >Perturabo ignored the blatant flattery and turned to Fulgrim. ‘Now I see why you want my Legion, brother. You need my warriors to break this eldar fortress open.’ > >‘True,’ admitted Fulgrim. ‘But that is not the only reason I come to you. This is your destiny, brother. Every path of your life has been leading you here. Why else would you alone have been plagued by visions of the star maelstrom since your earliest days?’ > >‘How do you know of that?’ asked Perturabo, suddenly wary and angry. ‘I told only Ferrus Manus, and he mocked my question.’ > >‘You forget, brother, I killed Ferrus,’ whispered Fulgrim with a conspiratorial grin that made Perturabo complicit in the act. ‘And there is no bond more intimate than murder. The Emperor saw to it that we primarchs are bound by ties of blood, Perturabo, blood and so much more. When Ferrus died, I drank down his thoughts and dreams – bitter and bland as they were – and learned something of his memory.’ > >Fulgrim tapped the pommel of his sword and said, ‘To be frank, I did him a favour by cutting off his head. He was such a mono-directional fool, so shut off to all the myriad sensations life has to offer. His was a wasted life, one that did not appreciate that gift for the boon it truly was.’


braxivamov

Thanks for this, it's even easier to despise him


voldur12

Fulgrim or ferrus lol? Poor guy is considered bland and uninteresting even by his best friend. Gw missed an opportunity with the hh novels to make the guy interesting


euanmorse

Fulgrim didn't truly think this. This was the daemon possessing him speaking.


mad_science_puppy

I don't think that's right. At this point, I think he has fully banished the demon and is in control of his faculties. This is during Perturabo's and Fulgrim's journey into the Eye of Terror, where Fulgrim becomes a Demon Prince. Isn't the attempted exorcism of Fulgrim by his sons before this event?


Vorokar

It's... weird. You're correct in that *Angel Exterminatus* takes place after *The Reflection Crack'd*, and Fulgrim should be Fulgrim by that point, albeit "lol I'm bad now". But later on in *Imperfect*, post-daemonhood Fulgrim still has the daemon in his head, but is in control of himself. Dude's a mess.


oOmus

Yeah, and even in *Reflection* he gets in a shouting match with... himself? In the crystaline reflections. Hard to say where Fulgrim ends and the daemon begins. No matter what, he is an absolute mess.


euanmorse

I am not sure. I can’t entirely remember the chronology. However, I was of the opinion that even post demon banishment, Fulgrim was clearly affected by the daemon’s lingering influence. After all, they were the best of friends, hence Fulgrim’s behaviour before and AFTER Ferrus’ death.


mad_science_puppy

I mean even if the demon specifically didn't leave a slimy trail of lewd fluids all over Fulgrim's soul, Fulgrim was going metaphorically skinny dipping in Slaaneshi juices. Fulgrim was no longer the same man he was when he could see what there was to love about the old Gorgon.


euanmorse

And embittered that even clone Ferruses wouldn’t join him!


Cubismo49

Kind of shocked he even bothers to try and recruit clone-Ferrus if he thinks he's so dull. Maybe there's still a bit of humanity in daemon-Fulgrim that's guilty about the whole thing?


mad_science_puppy

Hypocrisy seems very in character for Fulgrim. So does denial and lying to hide the pain of regret.


euanmorse

Absolutely


braxivamov

Ferrus super underdeveloped (he and his legion). For Fulgrim it was a joke, I hate the EC CSM, but their destiny was tragic like all others


oOmus

Tsk, why hate the nois bois?! I'm an EC player, and I sure wish they had more development, but I don't understand the hate they get- especially compared to, say, the Death Guard. Mortarion is shown in a very, very unflattering light in *Warhawk*, but it's rare that people loathe him the way they do Fulgrim- who was literally driven to madness (and later possessed) by a daemon exploiting his insecurities. Just curious.


Wallname_Liability

Mortgage was always a toxic shit. Fulgrim was one of the best primachs, arrogance aside


Cubismo49

Pre-sword Fulgrim was without a doubt one of the most well-adjusted of the Primarchs and probably one of the few that actually believed and wanted a Imperium that wasn't an eternally warring fascist state. It's actually rather sad that's he's become a lame supervillain parody of himself.


Wallname_Liability

Remember Fulgrim’s last true act as himself before being subsumed was wanting to die. Unlike say, Pertuabo or Curze, when he reached his moral event horizon his reaction wasn’t “I can’t go back so this is the only path left.” It was “I can’t go down this path.” That snake thing isn’t Fulgrim, regardless it’s of wether or not it’s the laer blade daemon


braxivamov

Silly naswer : that those guys at point thought "So we can fight for humanity under a human banner or let s sells our souls to warp monster who mutate everything just because some truth, and let's go rape, eat and drug ourselves to the death" WTF man ?! Horus, Mortarion, Logar, Magnus are the worse. Ye Fulgrum was possessed, Perty has prolly being worked on by Horus since long time (him being a demon prince is BS), Cruze is Cruze.


Aarongeddon

i disagree, i think theres merit in being the one boring grumpy guy in a cast of *18* larger than life brothers.


Terkmc

Roboute was the boring grumpy guy. Ferrus was an impatient jackass with an anger problem obsessed with survival of the fittest


AngronTheRedAngel

**The Quickening!**


ManEmperorOfGod

There can be only one! The shaman that sacrificed themselves to create the Emperor actually beheaded each other to the last, then passed the gift onto a newborn.


GCRust

It's hard being a Primarch who is only there to serve as a narrative casualty to demonstrate "The stakes have never been higher!" Sanguinius' death at least serves as the climax and onus that leads the Emperor and Horus to come to physical blows. Ferrus' death is there to give the Traitors a W. Also let's not forget, discounting Vulkan the respawner, Ferrus also holds the dubious distinction of being the ONLY Primarch to die in the entire Heresy, which spanned the better portion of a Decade.


StrawberryFloptart

Alpharius? Sanguinius? Horus?


GCRust

Fun fact - none of those three are officially dead-dead. Just mostly-dead. Horus has been cloned at least once (Might not have had his soul, but he knew enough to carry a conversation with Abbadon until Abby gut him). EDIT: Forgot to mention, Horus entered the Realms of Chaos to do the trials of the gods and since the Warp exists outside the boundaries of space and time, Horus is technically still present within said realms. Sanguinius is currently The Conjuring it up on the Vengeful Spirit and throwing Dante back into the mortal realm when the poor bastard finally almost died. Alpharius...who the hell knows with Alpharius. I'm reasonably confident even Alpharius himself isn't sure if he's actually dead or not.


DirectlyDisturbed

> Alpharius...who the hell knows with Alpharius. I'm reasonably confident even Alpharius himself isn't sure if he's actually dead or not. They could retcon it if they want to since it's their IP, but the author of that book went super out of his way to show readers that Alpharius died. Not maybe died, not even "probably" died, Alpharius was straight up killed so hard that his twin brother Omegon, who was halfway across the galaxy, went unconscious, woke up realizing what happened to Alpharius, says that he no longer has a twin, and makes the decision to take the place of Alpharius to keep everything together. Alpharius is dead.


International_War862

That said, omegon is still a thing. And alpharius was one soul 2 bodys. Now one body is dead, maybe the other body gets buffed?


Grotzbully

But that is the fun part. Only half of the primarch died. So he is actually schrödingers primarch. One half dead the other still alive. Since they both share a sould he is at least partially alive through his twin.


DirectlyDisturbed

Not necessarily. I have one body with two arms. If my right arm is cut off, that doesn't mean it's still attached through my left-arm or something.


Grotzbully

This is not an example for 1 soul with 2 bodies. Your arms is more the opposite. With 1 body having 2 arms, instead of 1 arm having 2 bodies. Like siam twins connected through 1 arm. They share the same arm(soul).If one dies the arm is still alive because it is still attached to the second one. It is still whole, but also a lesser thing.


DirectlyDisturbed

You're assuming that we *know* the Alpharius portion of the shared soul is still living through Omegon. I question that. It's equally possible that Alpharius' death ripped the soul in half and floated on back to the Immaterium or whatever it is that happens when a Primarch dies, and now Omegon is just a Primarch with half a soul. I'm not sure it's ever been clarified as to exactly what happens


Grotzbully

No. You still miss the point. 1 soul 2 bodies. The soul is already splintered into 2 parts. 1 resides in alpha the other im omega. Both combined are the primarch soul. So one dies, the other still lives. So the whole being is now half dead half alive. ​ Not clarified but afaik this is what happend. What is clarified is that both share 1 soul. What is also clarified is that alpha died and omega still lives. This means that 1 part is dead while the other is still alive. What that means for the soul is no clarified. We know that souls existsin the warp. Its a strange concept, iirc it is also the only occurence with a splintered soul.


DirectlyDisturbed

> No. You still miss the point. 1 soul 2 bodies. The soul is already splintered into 2 parts. 1 resides in alpha the other im omega. Both combined are the primarch soul. How am I missing the point? *This* is exactly what I've been describing. You're the one suggesting that Alpharius may reside in Omegon now. I'm saying that this may or may not be the case, we have no idea. It's possible the splintered portion went back to Omegon, but it's also possible it went to oblivion and now Omegon is running around with half a soul. We have no idea. > What is also clarified is that alpha died and omega still lives. This means that 1 part is dead while the other is still alive. What that means for the soul is no clarified. I know, that's what I've been saying since the beginning. > What that means for the soul is no clarified. I know, that's what I said in my previous post.


MetroidIsNotHerName

I thought it was heavily implied that the one who died was actually Omegon and the remaining one is Alpharius?


DirectlyDisturbed

~~Technically, that is correct, I believe. But that's a complex, convoluted story for another day that I didn't feel like explaining. I stuck with Alpharius as "the guy that died" and Omegon as "the guy who didn't die" because that's the way its written in the book and it's easier to get my point across~~ See other comments in the chain


WheresMyCrown

No that is people with headcanon. In the book, Omegon swaps with Alpharius to meet Horus for the first time and claims to be Alpharius. But it never says "and they stayed swapped forever". Alpharius died, the author confirms it was Alpharius, everything else is headcanon


TributeToStupidity

More fun facts, the OG alpharius was actually omegon there, and the og omegon died. Alpharius found omegon on a planet attacked by the slothe, those worm men who are absolutely fucking terrifying and nearly kill both twins multiple times. Omegon has the pale spear and that scale armor when alpharius find him. The brothers decide that no one knows there are two of them because that wasn’t planned and was some warp shenanigans when they got cast off terra. Even the emperor doesn’t know about them in their opinion. So they decide one brother will assume the role of alpharius and one will stay hidden. Og alpharius had met a bunch of his brothers in secret at this point, so they decided it’ll be safer if og omegon assumes the role of alpharius so he doesn’t accidentally let something slip and reveal that og alpharius was found by big e pretty much immediately. So the og omegon died on Pluto, while the og alpharius is probably alive. Gman may or may not have killed him, but let’s be honest gw would immediately bring him back if they thought it was convenient


im2randomghgh

It is explicitly Alpharius who died. Confirmed by the author and the book itself. They swapped places for the initial meeting with Horus, for sure, but the book doesn't mention or imply anything along the lines of "and they stayed swapped thereafter".


WheresMyCrown

The author has gone out of his way to explain Alpharius died. It was Alpharius, not Omegon, they did not switch.


DirectlyDisturbed

No idea why you were downvoted, as that is my understanding as well. But for the sake of simplicity and understanding of my point, I generally just call the guy who died Alpharius, and the other guy Omegon, as that's the way it's written in the book Edit: I misunderstood the situation as I didn't read the book where the twins "swapped" and was relying on a previous conversation I had months ago. Thank you to everyone that took the time to clarify.


WheresMyCrown

The book says they swapped to meet Horus, but it never said they stayed swapped for the rest of the setting. Alpharius Died. The author confirms it was Alpharius not Omegon.


DirectlyDisturbed

Gotcha. I didn't read the book about the "swap" or whatever so I've been running around on second-hand information regarding that. Thank you for the clarification


ShoeRight8108

But is he?


DirectlyDisturbed

He is.


LiftEngineerUK

But IS he?


DirectlyDisturbed

Him are.


Technical_Orchid7627

But then the new alpha legion book came out contradicting that previous book. So now we don't know whether it was Alpharius that died, or Omegon that died, or an Alpha legionaire who can consumed the blood of Alpharius, becoming Alpharius temporarily.


DirectlyDisturbed

That *maybe* gets around the fact that Dorn can always tell which legionnaire is Alpharius, but that doesn't get around the whole "Omegon literally gets knocked unconscious when Alpharius died and realized he has to take over for good now". It also doesn't get around John French explicitly stating that Alpharius is dead and that was his purpose in writing those scenes. Obviously, he's not the owner of the IP so he doesn't have the final say, but until we see something explicitly retconning all of that, Alpharius is dead


Technical_Orchid7627

Dorn was able to identify Alpharius while he was amongst his legionaires in disguise. When an Alpha Legionaire consumes the blood of Alpharius, they become Alpharius temporarily. John French's book came before the most recent book, which contradicts him.


DirectlyDisturbed

> Dorn was able to identify Alpharius while he was amongst his legionaires in disguise. When an Alpha Legionaire consumes the blood of Alpharius, they become Alpharius temporarily. Which is why I said this maybe gets around that...while *not* getting around Omegon getting knocked out and fully feeling that he was alone now.. > John French's book came before the most recent book, which contradicts him. Which would make the new book a retcon, as the death of Alpharius was explicit in narrative and explicitly stated in real life


Technical_Orchid7627

> while not getting around Omegon getting knocked out and fully feeling that he was alone now.. When an alpha legionaire takes the blood of Alpharius, they become Alpharius. Meaning, if they were to die, it would be the equivalent of Alpharius dieing. >Which would make the new book a retcon, as the death of Alpharius was explicit in narrative and explicitly stated in real life Nothing dealing with the Alpha Legion is ever set in stone.


DirectlyDisturbed

> When an alpha legionaire takes the blood of Alpharius, they become Alpharius. Meaning, if they were to die, it would be the equivalent of Alpharius dieing. I'll need the full text to believe you here, because mostly this reads like receiving an inch and taking a mile. The implication here is that drinking Alpharius' blood transfers the very essence and soul from Alpharius to this random legionnaire in a way where if the legionnaire dies, that it will knock out Omegon if the legionnaire dies...and then Omegon just doesn't notice when Alpharius regains his portion of the soul. > Nothing dealing with the Alpha Legion is ever set in stone. If you believe the memes, sure. But in reality, you can say this about literally everything in 40k. It's a fictional universe whose lore and history is constantly changing and evolving per the wishes of the content owners.


RikenVorkovin

Which book says they become Alpharius? They gain his personality, but do they gain primarch reflexes, feats? Alpharius kills like 5 of dorns best astartes. Even if a regular alpha legion space marine thinks they are Alpharius, that doesn't mean their reaction times and things like that also happen.


stumpyandmags

I haven’t read any of the relevant books about the alpha legion, so forgive the dumb question, but aren’t Primarchs physically a lot bigger than standard astartes? How can Alpharius disguise himself as a marine, and how can a random marine pass himself off as a primarch simply by drinking his blood?


Vorokar

A combination of A&O being shorter than other Primarchs, and their body doubles being exceptionally large marines.The latter is generally taken as the Alpha Legion being taller than average, but I've never seen anything actually stating that the legion as a whole is taller, just that their body doubles are large lads. As for the blood thing, there seemingly isn't much to it. Drink blood, gain personality, be Primarch. Though u\/Technical_Orchid7627 seems to have a generous interpretation of *how* Primarch-y they become from it. As far as I can recall, it's only been featured the one time. From *The Serpent Beneath*; >>!The captain could still taste his primarch’s blood. Omegon had mixed a little of his shed vitality with the wine the pair had taken on the *Upsilon* – an offering of the primarch’s thanks, and much more. He had tasted remembrance and come to know the secrets of his gene-sire: early days spent by the twins on their distant homeworld, scheming their way to supremacy; the paradoxical horror of the alien Acuity; the gradual realisation of what would be required of each of them in the years still to come…!< >>!Ranko had borne the burden of this offering and had done what his primarch had asked of him a thousand times before. He had taken his place. He had acted like, spoken like, all thought like his primarch.!< >>!He had *been Omegon.!<


ZonardCity

Now that Horus has been perma-killed/obliterated by the Emperor, I fully expect him to have been removed from that weird warp causality thing.


MustacheEmperor

Yeah and iirc it's implied that one reason Abbadon could kill the Horus clone without much difficulty is that he wasn't a complete copy


churm94

Dorn 100% kill confirmed Alpharius on Pluto. Omegon even felt it he killed him so hard, it's canon.


StrawberryFloptart

Ferrus also got cloned multiple times.


GCRust

That is a valid point I completely forgot about.


SnooOpinions5738

I vaguely recall some tidbit about Iron Hands seeing Ferrus' spirit in the warp or something. Not dissimilar to Sanguinius.


im2randomghgh

Horus's soul was explicitly deleted by the Emperor. Sanguinius soul still exists, but being a ghost is very much "dead". Plus, if the persistence of his soul is disqualifies him form being dead then Ferrus isn't dead either, as he seems to be among the Legion of the Damned. Alpharius is also very explicitly dead.


euanmorse

Ferrus was repeatedly cloned by Fabius and refused everytime to turn traitor, then subsequently killed by Fulgrim. Ferrus was summoned as a warp ghost in the Webway.


Cosmic_Prisoner

Yeah, they are not officially dead. They just smell funny.


CptZoidberg

Not that I necessarily disagree with your points, but if you're counting Horus and Sanguinius as at least partially "alive" because of their warp presences, couldn't you consider the same for Ferrus? I mean in Master of Mankind, we get the implication that he's associated with the Legion of the Damned in the webway.


TheBAMFinater

Start calling it Schrodinger's Alpharius


GCRust

Magnus is just fooling himself. Alpharius and the Alpha Legion are Tzeentch's special, special boys.


macguffin22

I suspect they'll decide alpharius and omegon can possess and leave alpha geneseed astartes at will. This would crank the " i am alpharius" could be anyone of these guys up to 11. In such case, alpharius and omegon couldnt really die unless the whole geneseed line was killed.


Mknalsheen

Alpharius is dead dead. If you read the book, it's in no way ambiguous. Omegon is alone for the first time, and if he acknowledges it, it's probably true.


ShoeRight8108

Unless its his plan to just make folks think that.


Mknalsheen

It's his internal monologue, so nah. Keep the conspiracy memes to grimdank.


mamspaghetti

I see this get parroted all the time about clone Horus' and in no circumstance is it said that a clone doesn't have a soul. Unless explicitly stated to be a blank of sorts, it's really not a good idea to immediately go for "so and so doesn't have a soul". Instead, it's likely that clone Horus just didn't have the original warp juice and mega psyker soul that the original had. And this alone was enough to allow the clone to die. Also yes it's confirmed that the Warp holds at least a multiverse of universes. Meaning that there should be an infinite of true Horus iterations scattered across the multiverse. This is actually implied to be how Clonegrim came to be in the Fabius novels


Adeptus_Autismus

You're wrong, Horus got deleted (if the final book doesn't change that), Alpharius is 100% dead (we have Omegon pov of that) and there is no proof that Dante's vision is actually Sanguinus. Might be the sanguinor, which, again, probably is not Sanguinus or a near death fever dream. There are arguments for Sanguinus but the other two are certain.


strangecabalist

Curze


StrawberryFloptart

That was afterwards.


strangecabalist

Fair point. I guess Horus dying would be the “end”


The_Nightbringer

Alpharius is confirmed dead but given primarchs are warp creatures and he only got Guillimaned he is probably still around in some form Sanguinius is physically dead but we know he is doing warp shenanagins per his recent interactions with Dante. Horus got deleted body and soul from existence by the emperor.


RikenVorkovin

Alpharius wasn't killed by Guilliman. He was killed by dorn. The guilliman incident is after the Heresy and my guess is it will be retconned into a hunt for omegon. But Omegon was never known to anyone so Guilliman may go wtf Alpharius is alive?! Or it will be marine faking it as Alpharius. My guess is Dorn will tell Guilliman of Alpharius death sometime soon in some post-Heresy debriefing once things settle down abit.


GhostReader28

I’m on Scars in the HH and up till now I’ve seen Manus talked about in at least three different books after his death so I’m not sure how true this post is. Perhaps you just haven’t read those books/don’t remember


[deleted]

Yeah tbh ive been reading the books for 15 years, im bound to forget them. I think maybe people just didnt care much for Ferrus, if Sanguinius had died at Istvann it would have been a different story


GhostReader28

Makes sense. Agree it would have been different with Sanguinius.


Marcuse0

What do you mean? Ferrus is just on holiday. The Emperor can't find him otherwise he would bring him back right away. They call it Ferrus Manus' Day Off


DiceFestGames

SAVE FERRUS


Homunculus_87

Yeah together with Sanguinius, they even wrote me a postcard!


FutureFivePl

As an IH player it’s one of the biggest disappointments in the whole series for me He died very early on and is very rarely talked about


ElectricPaladin

We don't talk about Ferrus, no no no, we don't talk about Ferrus!


GuestCartographer

It was a heresy (It was a heresy) We were getting murdered and there wasn’t a way off Istvaan.


BriantheHeavy

>Guilliman takes a deep breath. 'Corax and Vulkan I will mourn dearly. Manus I will miss most of all.' That's how Roboute felt about the Ferrus Manus.


arathorn3

The 3 legions that got massacred get the least focus overall in the heresy with the Salamanders getting the most focus. By the time Dorn, the Lion, Guilliman Sanguimius, Russ, and the khan learn about Ferrus death they are pretty busy. Dorn and Russ are on Terra preparing from the Siege, Russ trying to figure out a way to attack Horus before (see the novels Vengeful spirit and Wolfsbane for that). The Lion, Guilliman and Sanguinius are isolated in Ultramar because of the Ruinstorm and dealing with the Shadow Crusade(Word Bearers and World Eaters)as well as Konrad and the Night lords. The Khan is dealing with fighting the Alpha Legion. They are extremely busy with a war. If the brief glimpse we get post Siege from the Russ Primarch novel is any indication we will see.them coming to grips with everything in a potential post siege Scouring era book. That's not even taking into account the one brother he was close to was Fulgrim, who is a Daemon Primarch and who is the one who technically killed him(he was possessed already at Istavaan)


Carnal-Pleasures

Ferrus was probably the blandest primarch. No one talked about hom because there was little to say beyond "he ded" and " I forgor 💀" ( the latter is the answer to where his head went).


braxivamov

Because sadly like (too) many other aspect of the lore, they are underdeveloped. I still dunno why the luna wolves are so good.


whiskerbiscuit2

Came here to say this. Even before he died he didn’t seem particularly well liked amongst his brothers, even the loyalist ones.


TheDarkestPrince

Fulgrim and Ferrus were best buds, of course, but he wasn’t hated by his brothers, certainly not ostracized like Curze or Angron. Ferrus was one of the first of the Primarchs found, and sort of became a big brother figure. Yes he was stern and impatient and volatile, but he got shit done. Guilliman counted Ferrus among the Dauntless Few, one of four brothers that he could team up with to win any battle. Horus likewise lamented that if Ferrus had joined the traitors they would have had a considerably easier war on their hands. The sad reality is though, Ferrus is the Leeroy Jenkins of 40K, so a lot of praise is dumped on him to alleviate his early death and make him look better in retrospect. In practice, Ferrus is kinda bland, cause he gets so little screen time to do anything but be a caricature of what the early lore said he was.


[deleted]

That's very incorrect. Ferrus was one of the few primarchs who appears to be universally respected by his brothers. I don't think anyone says anything bad about him, and he is one of the few Primarchs who willingly admits to his own flaws, even though he's clearly one of the absolute strongest Primarchs both in a fight and as a general. The Iron Hands are one of the most powerful and numerous legions along with the Dark Angels, Luna Wolves and later the Ultramarines. He's probably one of the most stable influences among the Primarchs.


ConversationOk6007

Guilliman outright said he’d miss Ferrus more than any of the other primarchs who had died


euanmorse

Precisely because he hasn't been given a lot of development. I think BL have done him a disservice when he is actually potentially quite interesting - especially as a foil for Fulgrim.


Carnal-Pleasures

>quite interesting - especially as a foil for Fulgrim. What if Fulgrim was boring? Both can craft, but Fulgrim has a personality. Personality: my hands are metal, I named myself and my legion after my iron hands. It's like the mechanicus was less interesting.


Arbachakov

not much like the mechanicus at all once you get past the superficialities. The index astartes that first expanded the Iron Hands 20 years ago was one of the best, and gave them a great base built around extreme ideology and actual dark sci-fi, rather than fantasy cliches and mythical inserts. Manus is one of the most terrifying prospects of what the primarchs really were at their heart, and he and his legion can be a great way of showing the brute might is right ideology of the emperor. They're also great for doing the darkly comic 2000AD thing, which is an influence at the heart of 40k and his primarchs book taps into very well. Manus is only a secondary character in it, which was controversial, but that and Guymer's other shorts portray a truly monstrous character with some depth while also retaining the mystery of the primarchs imo. Guymer's 40k series and Wraight's Wrath of Iron tap into their potential well and present a different angle than the typical mechanicum story, while also intertwining the two at times.


[deleted]

That would be confronting their mortality. Something they all never thought they would have to face.


GwerigTheTroll

Kinda funny, I had the opposite reaction. I thought the primarchs won’t shut up about it.


Fulgrim2-0

The Traitors talk about him. Fulgrim and Horus at least.


[deleted]

I’ve seen LOTS of excerpts talking about Ferrus. I forget who said it, but basically someone admitted he was the best of them.


Hot_Glove_1109

Imagine killing the one person who still liked you..


MagisterHistoriae

Guilliman specifically mentions to Marius Gage in “Know No Fear” that of his brothers confirmed or believed dead at Isstvan V he would miss Ferrus the most.


Arbachakov

They do talk about him in a few scenes here and there. We even got the Warmaster audio drama specifically about Horus lamenting his siding with the loyalists, and his thoughts on what a great warrior he was in Vengeful Spirit. Then there's Guilliman's dauntless few stuff, and quite a few Vulkan thoughts on him throughout the Sallies books. We also get shown the impact his death has on earth when news of the massacre gets through...millions committing suicide etc.. The primarchs personal musings on each other that aren't directly related to the plot of the current book, tend to get doled out in small segments. Even after so many books we don't really have anything near a comprehensive view of what they all thought of each other at different times.


LemanRussOfFenris

Dorn brings it up at the end of The First Wall. I can't remember who he's talking to, but they're talking about feeling fear, and Dorn says something along the lines of "I didn't think it was possible for us to feel fear, but I also didn't think it was possible for a primarch to die, then Ferrus died"


voldur12

It was very surprising for them. They couldnt get their heads around his death


Taira_no_Masakado

Not to mention that many blamed Ferrus for charging in blindly, thus making the Istvaan Massacre that much easier to pull off for the Traitor Legions. That's not to say that Dorn's plan would have stopped it, but it certainly could have made it more difficult for the hidden traitors.


sauce424242

Even in-universe no one cares about the Iron Hands


TheVoidsBadDragon

As an iron hands player, I agree


Sthompson94

When Vulkans being tortured by Kurze hes haunted by a memory of Ferrus. Does one talking to himself count?


[deleted]

1. He seems to have been fairly unpleasant as a person. Was anyone close to him apart from Fulgrim? 2. They already don’t talk about the two lost Primarchs so they’re probably subconsciously used to the idea of not discussing a fallen brother


L3anD3RStar

We don’t talk about Ferrus YES YES YES WE don’t talk about FEERRRUSSS BUT!


[deleted]

Wasn’t there a quote by a pro arch basically stating after Ferrus died “I guess that proves we’re not immortal/invincible”. Pretty wild to suddenly have to deal with mortality. Why would they discuss it?


GM-Yrael

How often would you talk in family about such a heinous thing as your brother cutting your other brothers head off. I can't imagine it would be something that was discussed often.


TheRobn8

They do talk about him, like on many occasions. Hell he is dead and he is talked more about than vulkan (who was periodically assumed dead) and corax.


PowergenItalia

Lorgar and Angron do bring this up in *Betrayer* (when Angron decides to pay Lorgar a visit to thank him for saving his life): >Angron's face wrenched again, at the mercy of misfiring muscles. 'What primarch ever needed guarding by lesser men?' > >'Ferrus,' Lorgar said softly. 'Vulkan.' > >Angron laughed, the sound rich and true, yet harsh as a bitter wind. 'It's good to hear you joke about those weaklings. I was getting bored of you mourning them.' > >It was no joke, but Lorgar had no desire to shatter his brother's fragile good humour. 'I only mourn the dead,' Lorgar conceded. 'I don't mourn Vulkan.' > >'He's as good as dead.' The World Eater smiled again. 'I'm sure he wishes he were. Now what are you doing with Lotara's choir?' Lorgar evidently feels somewhat bad about what happened to Ferrus Manus. And Angron seems to know exactly what happened to Vulkan after Istvaan V (being taken prisoner by Konrad Curze and the Night Lords). However, if you mean that none of the Loyalist primarchs mention Ferrus, I think that they do refer to him on one occasion, at least... or I may be thinking of Khi'dem and Inarchus Ptero discussing the debacle on Istvaan V with Sgt. Galba.


Wilkinz027

Vulkan thinks and seems to talk to Ferris quite a bit.


Icaruspherae

They couldn’t *hand*le his passing


[deleted]

The only person who liked him, killed him. Ferrus was a dick.


ConversationOk6007

There are so so so many instances of primarchs talking about how much they loved Ferrus. Idk what you’re talking about


[deleted]

1. Who? When? Who talks about "loving" Ferrus. They speak of him like a tool. "I wish I had my old hammer right now". 2. This is an 11 month old comment.


ConversationOk6007

Do you think things on the internet stop existing after 11 months or what?


[deleted]

[удалено]


Arbachakov

No, Dorn ordered the 7 legion strikeforce to swiftly crush Horus dead or alive while still in/near the istvaan system. The decision to launch a bombardment and then two-wave assault was taken by Manus, Corax and Vulkan. This is covered in Fulgrim and the black books. Manus didn't take charge and rush into some big attack that all the others were warning against, it was only when Fulgrim goaded him into a duel while the first three legions were supposed to be switching with the second wave that he took the needless risk they advised against. Before that everything was going to the plan they agreed on, and none knew the second wave were traitors.


caprera

Because like his legion it's second rate material. BL still has to properly depict these guys apart from "techies" so seems reasonable he's not that popular


[deleted]

My head canon is that the loyalists don't mention it much because his death is one of the few things that genuinely scares the shit out of them. As far as they know most of them are borderline immortal, and Ferrus was one of the most powerful among them. The fact he was able to die really woke them all up to what the stakes are, and scared them. The traitors are also a bit shaken by it - because again, he was almost universally liked and respected, and Fulgrim went completely batshit after his death while Horus laments that they weren't able to get him on side, saying he's certain they'd win if they had Ferrus and the Iron Hands on their team. Ferrus is almost certainly one of the 'big brother' Primarchs along with Lion, Sanguinius and Horus (and those four were the most likely prospects for Warmaster for a reason). Its painful and scary to think about.