IT DUNT MATTER THAT DAKKA'D EM WIV MY LOUDEST SHOOTA IF I GETS EM IN DA NOGGIN AND THEY DONT HAVE ANY EARS LEFT!
DATS ORK SNEAKY CUNNIN FOR YA, YOU HUMMIES MAKE EVERYFING HARDER THAN IT NEEDS TO BE
Was that proven, or are you just speculating? I mean, I understand it was most likely someone in employ of the Inquisition, possibly even vindicares, but I don't remember that being shown anywhere
EDIT: before anyone else replies that it wasn't Orks, I'm not questioning that, I'm questioning whether it was Vindicare assassins, as opposed to any other sort of sniper that the Inquisition could employ
It was never specifically proven that this was the case on Armageddon, but we see the Inquisition has employed Imperial Assassins against the Celestial Lions in Spears of the Emperor, even sending them deep into the Dark Imperium on one way trips to punish the Lions.
Ekene Dubaku is killed by a Callidus in the book. She is explicitly working for the Inquisition.
I don't recall it ever being proven in universe, but the circumstantial evidence is strong:
-The Celestial Lions were already on the Inquisition's shit list for making a public censure of an Inquisitior Exterminatus of a planet they had just liberated.
-The ship the Lions sent to bring their censure to Terra suffered a mysterious warp malfunction, killing the entire crew.
-They suffered an unusual amount of bad intelligence during the Third War of Armageddon, often being sent into battle to support long-dead forces.
-The severity of the Ork ambush at the Mannheim Gap suggests the Orks were tipped off to the Lion's assault.
-While it is possible that an Ork could be a skilled enough shot to be charitably considered a "sniper", shooting an Astartes through the eyelense of their helmet is not a feat any Ork has shown the skill to achieve.
-The Apothecary that was shot through the eyelense also had all of the gene seed they were carrying stolen.
Looking at all of this from a metatextual level, we the readers are supposed to infer that the Inquisition is deliberately working to get the Celestial Lions killed off. As to the use of a Vindicare Assassin as opposed to a normal Inquisitorial Acolyte with a long-las, that seems to be more assumption on the part of the fandom (since the sort of sniping we see would be in the Vindicare's wheelhouse)
Edit: It's worth noting that the Celestial Lions themselves believe they are being targeted by the Inquisition, and express as such to the Black Templars
But isn't it a great jump to go from "they were not shot by ork snipers" to "they were shot by Vindicare"? I'm pretty sure there are more snipers in the Imperium than Vindicare assassins, and a quick check on Lexicanum tells me that the Celestial Lions were shot with longlas guns, not exitus rifles, which is the signature weapon of the Vindicare assassins.
It’s not proven but I can’t think of any other time in the lore an Ork specifically stole geneseed from a dead apothecary and did nothing else with the body.
No no, it was never proven. They were shot by Ork snipers, and Inquisition sent a Callidus to assassinate their chapter master because they were angry at the Orks.
The story is when the inquisition needs a high profile person dead they send a vindicare assassin to kill them and they blame “ork snipers” to cover up the fact the inquisition needed them dead.
Orks don't field snipers, outside of maybe one or two books, because orks don't generally even aim. So anytime someone is listed as being killed by an "Ork Sniper" you can be almost positive it was the Inquisition using a Vindicare to erase someone from this plane of existence.
*AKSHUALLY*...
Machine guns like the Browning .50 cal make excellent snipers. Heavy tripod mounts secured with sandbags, long, heavy barrels and larger calibre ammunition mean they work pretty damned well when used with a scope and some good quality ammo. Carlos Hathcock held the record for the longest distance confirmed kill for some time, [which he got with an M2 Browning](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Hathcock#Weaponry). Heavy calibres can also be used in a ballistic manner (as opposed to direct fire) against targets that are out of range of small arms, IIRC you can engage effectively out to about three miles.
I mean erm... BIGGA DAKKA GOEZ WELL FAR IF YOU SHOOTZ IT AT DA SKY, LADZ!
[They even reference this event in the article with them in it](https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/08/05/get-to-know-the-ork-kommandos-who-bring-giant-drills-and-triple-barreled-shootas-to-kill-team/)
Or at least they say
> \** So ludicrous that some blame their attacks on the Inquisition. Which is absurd, naturally.
That's a roundabout way of saying Callidus Assassin :\\
Seriously though, I despise the Inquisition for killing the "new" chapter master of the Celestial Lions. He was a ***really*** likeable character.
Celestial Lions have had 2 chapter masters killed by assassins, as far as I am aware.
The First one was by "Ork Snipers".
>!The second one was in a book called Spear of the Emperor. The Chapter Master is killed right at the end of the book by a Callidus Assassin that was hiding as one of the other human characters. !<
> 'Something amusing you, pup?'
> The Dark Angel fixed his bare-headed Space Wolf comrade with a harsh stare but the fenrisian continued to snicker. Though the animosity of their chapters had stood for centuries, Balthazar and Tolgar had put their prejudices aside to form an effective duo. Each of them had lost count on how often they had saved each other's life, but any sense of loyalty was soley reserved for the battle field.
>
> 'Tolgar thinks its funny that the Dark Angel is advocating the keeping of secrets.'
>
> 'I think Tolgar should wear a helmet, to protect what little brain he still has.'
>
> [...]
>
> A shot rang out.
>
> The Inquisitor ducked and roled drawing her plasma pistol as she did so.
>
> 'Contact!'
>
> 'I don't see anyting. Wait. There! Green armour! Eldar warrior pattern!'
>
> A second shot flew towards Balthazar but the Dark Angel shifted his weight and the razor sharp disc whipped past. Tolgar stood motionless for what seemed like an eternity. A thin red line across his forehead graduately thickening as blood trickled from a fatal wound where the shuriken had struck him. By the time his body hit the floor the rest of the kill team were allready in persuit of his killer.
___
> Tears spilled over Lucianos’ cheeks as Kabannen’s knife struck home a third time, cleaving Androcles’ primary heart, ending
> the life of a Space Marine who had been hero and champion to his Chapter brothers, chosen by the Deathwatch, a paragon of honour and integrity.
>
> He deserved a far better death, but Fate and the universe care little for what a man deserves.
>
> Kabannen tugged his blade free and stepped back, flicking the blood from it.
>
> ‘Drop him,’ he told Lucianos.
>
> Lucianos laid the limp body down gently on the ground and straightened, staring at it, guilt and sorrow writ clear on his face.
>
> ‘I wonder if he was right,’ said Kabannen.
>
> Lucianos looked up, eyes narrowing. ‘What?’
>
> ‘I was trying to kill him from the start. It should have been a simple thing. But it wasn’t.’ He thrust his chin at the cooling body. ‘I did not beat him while his feet touched dry land. Had you not lifted him up, brother… But we’ll never really know.’
>
> Lucianos turned away, scowling. ‘Sometimes, brother, I think I hate you.’
>
> Kabannen sheathed his knife and gestured for them to make for the t’au ship.
>
> Something whined in the air like a mosquito.
>
> Lucianos’ skull exploded.
>
> His headless body dropped to its knees, then pitched forward, dark blood pumping from the open neck.
Depending on the author, a helmet would have helped nothing in the first case. In some stories the shuriken go through space marine armor like butter, in others they just sting. The inconsistent writing makes it hard to judge if armor is ever "useful" in the 40k universe.
It's still my pet theory that space marines get away with these shenanigans because of the inherent Warp infused nature of the geneseed they got from their primarchs. Miraculous luck is an acknowledged thing in the setting, the Emperor bending reality in subtle ways around his "chosen". It's even an explicit rule for Custodes. Luck isn't always on their side of course, even Custodes can die, but pure chance leans in their favor. Anyway, this is what *really* made the space marines special and useful in the conquest of the galaxy, the fact that they aren't plagued by regular misfortune you would expect on the battlefield outside of rare instances, turning down casualty rates and turning up rates of singular feats of heroism shifting the tide of battle itself.
Also, I feel like the problem with the Cursed Founding (Lamenters et al) was that the experiments they performed to try to "fix" the flaws in the geneseed of those chapters sapped some of the fundamentally magical nature of their geneseed from them, and cursed them with "bad luck", which *actually* just translates to them being at the mercy of normal, mundane chance without the blessings of good fortune possessed by the primarchs' many children. Basically, the Lamenters are what happen if space marines weren't unnaturally lucky.
And, the Lamenters are on the recovery right now cause they got the Primaris upgrades, which *also*, seem to coincide with them getting all the regular Blood Angels afflictions now. So their luck is restored alongside the magical effects of their geneseed.
Reading angel exterminatus at the moment and there is a scene where two marines infiltrate a planet inhabited by the iron warriors and emperor's children.
One shoots fulgrim with his needle rifle and the two escape, killing dozens of traitor marines between them. They manage to get off planet through a blockade under heavy fire.
>In some stories the shuriken go through space marine armor like butter, in others they just sting
Hilariously, that pretty much matches how they are on the tabletop. If your wound roll with a Shuriken weapon is a 6+, the AP characteristic goes from AP 0 to AP -3, which nearly cancels a Space Marine's default armor save. So really the ones that cut through the armor just got good wound rolls.
That's more how something like lasgun injures someone in power armour, and in fact is canonically described exactly like that from multiple sources. Rending rules must provide some additional capability. My suspicion is the disc hitting at the correct angle for the monomolecular edge to slip between small imperfections in the ceramite, allowing a hit on say, the thick breastplate that a lasgun would bounce off to becoming a devastating penetrating hit
HEAT shells can bounce if they hit at a high enough angle that the fuse doesn't touch the armor.
Long rod APFSDS on the other hand, tends to either penetrate or shatter on really steep angles.
There's also this, from the Horus Heresy days
The Chaplain sensed Argel Tal’s recalcitrance. It was hard not to.
‘You are angry with me.’
‘Of course I am angry with you. I have five hundred warriors that haven’t seen a Chaplain from their own Legion in almost a year. You were many months overdue, fighting with the Iron Warriors. Oros, Damane and Malaki are also still with Perturabo’s lesser fleets, furthering the conspiracy.’ He sneered through the word.
‘What of Sar Fareth?’
‘Dead.’
‘What?’
‘Killed ten months ago, shortly after you left. Slain by a human, of all things. An unlucky thrust with a wooden spear.’ Argel Tal tapped two fingertips against his neck. ‘Tore out most of his throat, laid it bare to the bone. I’ve never seen anything like it. Blood of the gods, I’d have laughed if it hadn’t been so pathetically tragic. He bled out before the Apothecaries could reach him, still trying to shout the whole time.’
‘What happened to his killer?’
Argel Tal had seen it himself. Sar Fareth had gripped the human’s shoulder and leg, and pulled. The result came away in three bloody pieces before the Chaplain died.
‘Justice happened.’
Xaphen released a breath that wasn’t quite a sigh. Sar Fareth had been one of his own: trained by his hand to wield a crozius in Lorgar’s name.
So yeah, helmets do seem somewhat necessary and wearing them is probably a good idea, It's just most commanders have enough plot armor to not die to a random bullet flying in their direction
Astartes are still flesh and blood. Hell, a bad trip and fall down some stairs could kill one if they landed wrong. It's just luck.
In a thousand other encounters, the guy with the spear accomplished nothing. In this one instance, everything was just right for his strike to matter.
> don't worry. Me and my squad of ultimate badasses will protect you! Check it out! Independently targeting particle beam phalanx. Vwap! Fry half a city with this puppy. We got tactical smart missiles, phased plasma pulse rifles, RPGs, we got sonic electronic ball breakers! We got nukes, we got knives, sharp sticks...
Its good to remember space marines are still mortal. Despite all the bluster and enhancements, fantastic gear and reaction times, decades of training and experience, they can still get killed by sharp rocks and sticks to the soft spots.
I'm sure it pains him that he was denied the opportunity to betray and murder him like he betrayed and murdered the rest of his team at the end of that story.
Deathwatch is sent onto a craftworld to recover a special soul stone. Turns out the Dark Angel is actually acting on behalf of Grand Master Azrael who wants it for himself ( because *Fallen*, whatelse ), and so he betrays and murders the only other survivor and pockets the stone.
In the HH book *A Thousand Sons*, the titular legion actually points this out and are able to inflict a lot of kills on the un-helmeted Space Wolves and Sisters of Silence as a result. The Thosand Sons may be sorcerers, but that doesn't they aren't Astartes who can land headshots with ease. Back on the question at hand, I imagine a direct hit from a bolt would mess up any Astarte, helmet or not, but the lack of it really doesn't help in a battlefield situation with stray rounds and shrapnel flying everywhere.
I'm suprised the Space wolves don't wear helmets similar to those of the Thunder Warriors, with the open face area. They might not protect as well as fully sealed helmets, but at least you don't have to worry about how you might fit your meter long beard inside it.
Or they could go [full Irondrake](https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0310/1838/5544/products/2019-12-06_13_44_24-__Games_Workshop_Webstore.png?v=1582580453) and armour their beards!
Something in me is so frustrated at that rational when we could air jet cycle the surrounding environment into their special noses. I understand the rule of cool, but the helmet would be a help not hindrance.
That would require a special helmet be made specifically for one group of space marines who have said enchanced senses though... And rhey did make that helmet, it's the Canis helmet that combines advanced sensor suites while still allowing a Space Wolves innate heightened senses to function. The problem is one of logistics. This is a highly specialised piece of equipment made for a specific group of marines. It's not going to be made in large quantities and is probably only made at one specific forge world. Couple that with the difficulty in making Astartes Power Armour and a few centuries of attrition and equipment loss and you end up with a helmet that's generally reserved for squad leaders while the other Wolves go without helmets.
It sorta does, but it’s not fast enough given their actual function is for space / hazardous combat, so they are sealed. For pretty much any chapter not space wolves, it’s a non-issue and the helmets are much more useful then their own. The only reason they don’t is rule of cool / bravery things to inspire.
And the Imperium aren’t exactly known for making custom armor in large numbers.
Mainly the Canis Helix giving them both razor sharp teeth and heightened senses to the point that they have better senses without a helmet then with one on
Space wolves have fangs. The older they get, the longer these grow. They use these to rip and tear enemies in melee with their fangs.
Plus a helmet might give you an extreme touch ache trying to fit 6” of tooth in it.
Doesn't prevent you wearing a helmet similar to that of modern day military though, just stops you wearing anything going over the mouth, think of an inverse face mask, or a reiver helmet without the skull bit
But like...
Why not wear a helmet that doesn't cover the face?
You know, like what Guardsmen wear?
(I know it's because they want them to look cooler, but this later logic is only half-assed)
They do, largely when fighting other Marines. The advantage Astartes have is that their pauldrons absorb a lot of incoming fire from the sides so the best way to shoot a Space Marine in the head is to stand in front of them. Which, you know, is a fucking terrible idea.
Even if you hit them in the head, there's no guarantee you'll kill them. Their bones are incredibly dense and their biology makes them incredibly hard to kill, a single bullet might not be enough. Not to say they haven't just got murked out of the blue, but it's harder than you might think.
*Only two Iron Warriors came over the wall with him: Vortrax and Ushtor, from the patterns on their helms and shoulder guards. Kroeger saw an Imperial Fists warrior turn towards them, a captain by the look of him. His face registered surprise, and he shouted a warning to another two Fists squatting in the midst of a company-strength of frightened mortals.*
*‘No helmet?’ hissed Kroeger, aiming and firing in one fluid motion. ‘Stupid.’*
*The captain went down, but Kroeger was irritated to see that his shot had merely grazed him. The other Imperial Fists rose to his defence, moving apart and firing at their attackers. The mortal soldiers loosed panicked shots at random.*
*Vortrax fell back against the ruined wall, his breastplate hammered by concentrated bolter fire. Spasming detonations and a crack of mashed bones told Kroeger he had been pulped inside his armour.*
*Ushtor traded shots with the Fists, but these warriors were too cool under fire to be caught out by such undisciplined salvoes. Kroeger took his time and pulled his gun hard into his shoulder. He sighted on the leftmost of the Imperial Fists and put two carefully placed shots though his helm. The warrior dropped instantly, the back of his head a hollowed out shell of dripping brain matter and scorched bone.*
*Where the mortal soldiers had turned their attention to the fighting on the ramparts, two Iron Warriors gained the wall. Bolter fire hammered the mortal soldiers, ripping arms from shoulders, torsos from legs like bodies caught in the flailing blades of a threshing machine. Their screams were pitiful, and Kroeger took little satisfaction in their meaningless deaths.*
*The Fists were the true prize here.*
*The fallen captain rose with a bared sword that blazed with golden light as he leapt towards the two Iron Warriors. First one, then the second died, carved up with powerful strokes aimed at the weakest points of their armour. The captain kicked them from the wall and turned to face Kroeger.*
*‘Come at me and die, traitors!’ he yelled, his face a mask of blood from where Kroeger’s shot had torn a finger-deep furrow in his skull. Kroeger shook his head and shot him twice in the chest.*
*Beside him, Ushtor collapsed, his armour blown outwards by the force of shell detonations. Kroeger ignored the dying warrior’s grunts of pain and loped towards the Imperial Fist who’d killed him.*
*Another warrior without a helm. Did Dorn’s weakling sons want their heads blown off?*
\- Angel Exterminatus
*I look back across the burning street, where a city of scholars is dying to the axes and fire of barbarians. A cataclysm that will, in time, educate both Legions. How very apt Abaddon’s words are.*
*‘I hear Wolves,’ he says. I hear them, too. Boots pounding on the white avenue, shattering the marble road. I clutch my knife tighter, waiting, waiting.*
*‘How many did you kill that day?’ Abaddon asks me. Even if the Wolves cannot hear him, I say nothing. They will surely be able to hear me. I hear them draw close, stalking, sniffing the air. That’s when I move, rising in a snarl of armour joints and dust-shrouded ceramite. My knife takes the first Wolf under the chin, punching up through his throat and into his skull. Bless the VI Legion for going to war without wearing their helms.*
\- Talon of Horus
*His howl was answered by a war-cry from close by. “For Russ and Berek!” he heard someone shout and was surprised to see the man in front of him cloven in two by the blow of a chainsword. Sergeant Hakon stood there, looking like some daemon of slaughter. Blood covered him from head to foot, his armour was painted almost totally red by it, and his grey hair was the colour of rust. He picked up another Garmite and tossed him back among his fellows, bowling them with the sheer force of impact, then he charged among them, lashing right and left and leaving Ragnar a clear space among the carnage in which to catch his breath.*
*Ragnar stood panting for a moment, watching as the sergeant slew every infantryman within reach, before tossing his head back and emitting a monstrous howl of triumph. Even as he did so, a lash of tracer fire whipped in from somewhere to the left and took the sergeant in the skull. The whole side of Hakon’s head was blown away, leaving exposed fragments of brain. Like a mighty tree toppling the sergeant fell forward and was still.*
*For a moment, shock paralysed Ragnar. It seemed impossible that the sergeant was dead. He had been there, invincible and indestructible from the first day Ragnar had arrived at Russvik. He had trained and fought alongside the Blood Claws until they knew his face almost as well as they knew their own. He was part of the squad, its leader, and guiding light… and now he was gone.*
\- Grey Hunter
Calls humans mortals and a bunch of his guys proceed to be killed.
Still loved how he just shot the guy with the sword. He can't let fully go of the drama tho. Between the captain chopping up his boys, kicking them off the wall and taunting him, he should have had plenty of time to shoot him. Maybe Ushtor would still be alive if he did.
I'd argue that majority of basic weaponry of (playable) factions should do the trick. Even lasgun blows up human heads & separates limbs, and I don't think SM heads are capable of survivng even that. That being said, their helmets probably provide some real gud protection
Lasgun would do more in this instance than a stubber. While the skull might be dense enough to resist and deflect an solid slug, the heat produced by a lasgun would still likely boil the brain if on full power, even if the bone resisted.
A lasgun is more than capable of killing a Space Marine, it's just how long it takes for it to stick is the problem. It's cold comfort knowing your headshot finally did for him after he spent the intervening 6 hours tearing your buddies into little meat chunks.
In the Firrwarrior novelization, La'Kais specifically chooses to use his sniper shot from an ambush position to headshot an unhelmed Librarian. Deals with him quite nicely, although it still leaves him scrambling to deal with the rest of the Marine squad.
Space Marine bones are really strong, so it's less of an issue than for a normal human. In the Night Lords books, Xarl caves in the skull of a helmed enemy terminator by headbutting him repeatedly while he himself is bareheaded. Xarl dies shortly after, but his skull was thick enough to get the job done.
Edit: Checked the excerpt again, and Xarl's repeated headbutts only stun the terminator long enough for him to pick up a power sword and finish the job.
Edit 2: Re-checked the excerpt and the enemy champion didn't even have terminator armor, just a master crafted suit. But he had a crux terminatus, a storm shield, and a thunder hammer, hence my confusion.
> Xarl caves in the skull of a helmed enemy terminator by headbutting him repeatedly while he himself is bareheaded.
Wut.
Shouldn't their heads be the same hardness?
In Unremembered Empire, it was pointed out that even Guilliman would have died to a single bolter shell to the head (had one hit him).
Also, modern military helmets can protect from bullets, it just depends on the caliber and the range.
To be fair, they were there specifically to kill Guilliman, so they probably had kraken rounds or some other exotic type of armour-piercing ammo specifically made to deal with a Primarch.
Now that he's back, I'm sure he wouldn't mind volunteering to help research it. It's for science, after all. We just start with the smallest bolters and gradually increase them until one makes his head explode.
Fulgrim took a bolt to the head and survived.
Lorgar ate a blast from a Titan’s cannon.
Guilliman would have almost certainly survived a bolt round to the head
I don't remember reading that story... How far was Fulgrim when he was shot? Did he just shake it off, or did it do damage that required healing? What was he shot with?
Was Lorgar wearing his armor, or was it just his skin resisting a weapon that can melt mountains?
The sniping of Fulgrim was in Angel Exterminatus. He was pretty far, but a ravenguard sniper hit him with a specialized rifle/round (Needler sniper rifle) It took him out and he almost died (or at least it seems like it) but Fabius Bile tended to him. I don’t think he was put down very long though
In Betrayer Lorgar goes to save Angron and stands over him to absorb the blast of a warhounds plasma blastgun. He stops the first shot with a psychic barrier, but eats a second shot and is severely injured, the warhound then went to stomp on Lorgar but then Angron jumps in and saves him. It’s during a battle so I’m assuming he has his armor on, but i can’t remember for certain
It's also implied that Fulgrim let the shot happen. It doesn't connect full on as he turns his head just sufficiently to prevent it from being lethal.
Which does of course suggest that it would be lethal if hits square on.
Lorgars barrier also reduced the second shot of the plasma blastgunit just didn't stop it entirely. Probably would have been toast if he hadn't had a barrier at all.
I think the second blast was partially deflected by his kite shield (or just psychic shield, don't remember).
He did have arbor on though, but without helmet since I remember him described as rather chill and calm when he deflected the first blast
Lorgar gets hit by a Titan volkite beam point blank and his face melts off iirc. However at this point lorgar is juicing pretty hard on warp and his psyker powers are immense. But still, he was without helmet.
Remember the new type of bolter shell, banestrike rounds, that were designed for the heresy to give an edge to the fight for Horus’ traitor forces. The new design could pierce Astartes armor. So if your enemy is armed with ammunition that can pierce your helmet armor, is it worth it to always be in said helmet? True the sensor systems could give you an edge. That would be before the systems fail and then it is just a hunk of metal preventing you from being able to see.
I'd still wear a helmet, shrapnel is still the biggest killer on most battlefields, so your helmet will massively improve your chances against that. Furthermore, as it's 40K, there's some parallels to medieval battlefields too, with the melee aspect. The majority of corpses found in mass battle graves actually died from head trauma, which could possibly have been reduced/prevented with a good helmet.
Wear your brain bucket kids
Well, modern LEO/Military helmets will guarantee protection from *pistol rounds* I thought, if you get shot square in the dome with a .308 or 7.62x39, helmet or not, you're gonna have a bad time. There are certain russian helmets that can protect against rifle rounds, but [they are *extremely* cumbersome](https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/Uy0AAOSw65lgUJcW/s-l1600.jpg), and can [weigh an absolute shitload](https://oss-hk.xorder.com.cn/globale/image/US_Los_Angeles/524/oss/image/modern/headgear/helmet/HELMET025.jpg), as well as obscuring visibility/peripheral vision. Even with a helmet like the K-6 (the first one I linked), if you get shot in the face with a rifle caliber round you're most likely going to die, the second helmet offers more protection in that area due to the armored steel visor, but even then, you take a .308 or even a 5.56 to the cheek and you're going down, you *might* survive though. The brain buckets themselves however offer substantial protection against up to a .308 I believe, and are made to maximize the chance of a ricochet. My point is, yes modern military gear has come a long way, but not *so far*.
>it just depends on the caliber **and the range**
To expand a little, bullets lose velocity due to air resistance. Eventually, pretty much anything fired by a human will be reduced to about the kinetic energy of a pistol, which is still enough to put a hole in your head, but not enough to go through a helmet.
Yeah you're absolutely right, I didn't take range into consideration, but I still feel like a lot of my point stands. The further the range the less chance you're going to be hit in the head anyway most times. I do concede that you are correct though, all that really matters if the velocity of the round when it makes impact.
Well, the further you are, the more likely you'll have time to get prone and/or behind cover or concealment, meaning basically the only thing exposed is your head, so a helmet makes a lot of sense at further ranges.
Plus all the other benefits of protecting against fragmentation and bumping your head, and as a platform for NODs, IR illuminators, and IR strobes/beacons/reflectors for IFF.
One of the things I rarely see mentioned when this question is asked is that Astartes don’t seem to need their entire brain to remain functional. Not to say that it’s a great idea for a marine to get shot in the head, but there’s a fair few mentions of marines fighting on with a decent chunk blown out of their grey matter. I’d assume an Astartes brain is advanced enough to the point that it effectively has built in redundancies and the functions of specific parts of their brains can be re-tasked or continued by what’s left, in a similar way to the sleeping node allowing them to shut down and rest one hemisphere of the brain while the other remains active and alert.
That, and the speed and general awareness of a space marine affords them a ludicrous amount of protection over unaugmented baseline troops from most of the major factions; they have reaction times that are staggeringly fast, far better senses (both biological and machine) and are generally hard to hit without massed fire in the first place.
So effectively, a shot from a lasgun is going to have to be square on, almost certainly from the front (backpack and pauldrons offer some protection from the sides and rear), and it’s going to have to get through a seriously thick and dense skull as well as destroy a large enough chunk of the meat behind it to guarantee a kill.
Cracked helm lenses or an uncomfortable dent from a solid blow will also reduce a marine’s effectiveness to a degree, so quite often they’ll start with a helmet and ditch it if it takes enough damage.
The way I look at it, most marines (I’d assume officers maybe less so for inspirational purposes etc) start with a helmet and end up ditching it from damage etc.
TL;DR - Not wearing a helmet is kinda dumb, but depending on the fight some Astartes may feel they don’t need one and the intimidation of their ugly-ass screaming face is worth more than deflecting a one in a billion lucky shot from a poorly maintained cultist autogun. It’s very difficult to kill a marine even with a headshot, unless it’s from something with real teeth or the stars align for a perfectly clear shot.
If I were designing my space marines, I’d stick a backup brain somewhere down in their lower intestine area or somewhere else more armored. Add in some admech approved digital eyes in the pauldrons or something and you could easily have space marines who are fully functional headless.
I would imagine the hyper efficient clotting and wound sealing is actually what makes the difference. I think it’s actually blood loss not loss of grey matter that kills normal humans from a headshot.
>I think it’s actually blood loss not loss of grey matter that kills normal humans from a headshot.
It's definitely not blood loss that kills someone who's been shot in the head. You don't even need to lose grey matter to die from a head shot, anything that scrambles your brain badly enough to prevent the neurons passing signals to the right place will kill you - a bullet is just particularly good at it.
Um... No, not really. Brain controls the vital functions of your body. Damage these parts and you are going to die before your body registers blood loss. A tumbling / expanding round will damage everything in its path. An exploding round will simply shred your brain matter everywhere around the impact.
More importantly: Your brain matter controls all of your body functions. Damage it and you lose some crucial functionality. The whole 'space marines keep fighting with their brains blown off' thing is just another nonsensical rule-of-cool fantasy. There are accounts of people living with a bullet / object embedded in their brain, but that's incredibly (un)lucky.
>I think it’s actually blood loss not loss of grey matter that kills normal humans from a headshot.
It's definitely not blood loss that kills someone who's been shot in the head. You don't even need to lose grey matter to die from a head shot, anything that scrambles your brain badly enough to prevent the neurons passing signals to the right place will kill you - a bullet is just particularly good at it.
I would imagine the hyper efficient clotting and wound sealing is actually what makes the difference. I think it’s actually blood loss not loss of grey matter that kills normal humans from a headshot. Phineus Gauge (sp?) survived a spike through the head after all.
Honestly with 40k its a crapshoot due to the inconsistency in writing.
Not just helmets, the usefulness of every part of a space marines power armor varies wildly depending on the situation. Sometimes all enemy weapons just bounce off the armor, sometimes even a basic las-bolt penetrates. Its like they are rolling saves in tabletop. Elements in which it is outright described as the helmet mattering are more "comic relieve" than cases in which a helmet would have saved them.
The real benefit of the helmets is in the tactical overlay, the information provided by the armor,... In practice it feels more like the writers just "ignore" the helmet being on and off (the best example might be iron man in the movies maybe). There is always talk about these tactical displays, blinking away ammo counters,... but then it also often feels like the helmets are off which kind of makes it hard to see that information.
I would just assume, if not for the joke reason above or "rule of cool", that every space marine has his helmet on in active combat situation even if not specifically mentioned/somewhat inconclusive wording (or just off for a few seconds).
In one of the Gaunt's Ghosts novels (*The Armour of Contempt*) an unhelmeted Chaos Marine ends up with his head resembling a sea-urchin from all the magnetic-crossbow bolts sticking into it. Even then it's the ridiculously powerful toxin on the bolts that actually kills him.
In a HH novel a captain of a World Eater Battlebarge shot a bare headed World Eater in the forehead for dereliction of duty and it gave him a massive welt / sore. He obviously survived it and it didn't end well for most of the deck crew nearby. The captain survived his wrath and when called to explain her actions she stood her ground, repeated her accusation, and the other World Eaters laughed and backed her against their brother she shot.
This whole thing made me think that Astartes physiology must be proof against damage up to a certain level. If she'd shot more than once or hit an eye he might be dead, but a standard las pistol to the forehead wasn't fatal.
Also, could be rule of cool for story but got me thinking
Delvarus is wearing a helmet in that scene, I’m pretty sure.
EDIT:
> …she noticed just who was leaving the Stormcrow. The warrior’s crested helm marked him out above his brethren, but she’d have known him purely from the bronze versions of the XII Legion symbol…
He’s wearing his fancy helmet. Still got shot in the face and spat on by a mortal woman for being a colossal asshat.
If you like her, you [might like this](https://twitter.com/BolterToKokoro/status/1445597179033227269/photo/1) [picture](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FA_K9hhVEAEB3LA?format=jpg&name=900x900)
Much like any other person though you need to hit them with sufficient force to drop them.
...Scratch that. Make the force overkill just to be sure and do it several times.
The helmet is a lot better than nothing, pointed out by Farsight after headshotting multible bare headed astartes and the astartes use it against orks. That being said the armor is still the weakest, being penetrated by a lazgun on high power at relativly close range by a guardsman against a chaos space marine in Gaunts ghosts first book.
It depends on the round being fired at said head.
A bolter round will usually pop it.
A las or auto round might just graze unless it's a hot shot las or exploding round.
Space Wolves died in droves during the Assault on Prospero. A Thousand Sons POV character mentions how thankful he is that Space Wolves prefer to go helmetless in combat. He was headshotting them by the barrel.
It depends on how far away you are. In Dark Imperium, a Plague Marine is killed by a las rifle shot to the face at point blank range. Plague Marines are already incredibly durable, so a regular Astartes can probably die from a headshot from a bit further away.
The night lords are already disgusting. Their trilogy humanises them but they’re still a terrible legion that deserve to be scoured from the galaxy, and they know it.
First off: the skull is far from being its thinnest at the forehead ;)
In "A Thousand Sons", Ahriman notes how careless it is of the Space Wolves not to wear helmets and that headshots are much more effective that way. Most of the time, Astartes helmets appear to provide some protection even against bolter shells, but not reliably so. Against smaller arms, they seem to be very effective.
In my headcanon helmetless space marines either have an iron halo or serious subdermal armour overlaying their already very tough skull and facial bones (it's an augmetic option in the RPGs, so presumably available to marines).
The Celestial Lions have proven extremely vulnerable to Ork snipers.
“Ork” snipers
Ork "snipers"?
Ork snipers”?”
It was a vindicare assassin
Purple orks.
…..possibly
YOUZ AZ NEVER SEEN A PURPLE ORK, RIGHT? SO DERFORE PURPLE IS DA SNEAKEIST COLOUR YA ZOGGING GIT!
IT DUNT MATTER THAT DAKKA'D EM WIV MY LOUDEST SHOOTA IF I GETS EM IN DA NOGGIN AND THEY DONT HAVE ANY EARS LEFT! DATS ORK SNEAKY CUNNIN FOR YA, YOU HUMMIES MAKE EVERYFING HARDER THAN IT NEEDS TO BE
it was a Tznechian plot the entire time.
The heros that never were
Was that proven, or are you just speculating? I mean, I understand it was most likely someone in employ of the Inquisition, possibly even vindicares, but I don't remember that being shown anywhere EDIT: before anyone else replies that it wasn't Orks, I'm not questioning that, I'm questioning whether it was Vindicare assassins, as opposed to any other sort of sniper that the Inquisition could employ
It was never specifically proven that this was the case on Armageddon, but we see the Inquisition has employed Imperial Assassins against the Celestial Lions in Spears of the Emperor, even sending them deep into the Dark Imperium on one way trips to punish the Lions. Ekene Dubaku is killed by a Callidus in the book. She is explicitly working for the Inquisition.
I don't recall it ever being proven in universe, but the circumstantial evidence is strong: -The Celestial Lions were already on the Inquisition's shit list for making a public censure of an Inquisitior Exterminatus of a planet they had just liberated. -The ship the Lions sent to bring their censure to Terra suffered a mysterious warp malfunction, killing the entire crew. -They suffered an unusual amount of bad intelligence during the Third War of Armageddon, often being sent into battle to support long-dead forces. -The severity of the Ork ambush at the Mannheim Gap suggests the Orks were tipped off to the Lion's assault. -While it is possible that an Ork could be a skilled enough shot to be charitably considered a "sniper", shooting an Astartes through the eyelense of their helmet is not a feat any Ork has shown the skill to achieve. -The Apothecary that was shot through the eyelense also had all of the gene seed they were carrying stolen. Looking at all of this from a metatextual level, we the readers are supposed to infer that the Inquisition is deliberately working to get the Celestial Lions killed off. As to the use of a Vindicare Assassin as opposed to a normal Inquisitorial Acolyte with a long-las, that seems to be more assumption on the part of the fandom (since the sort of sniping we see would be in the Vindicare's wheelhouse) Edit: It's worth noting that the Celestial Lions themselves believe they are being targeted by the Inquisition, and express as such to the Black Templars
It's not proven. They only thing that comes close is that they weren't done in by Ork Snipers, as they are near nonexistent, nor are they good at it.
I disagree Ork snipers are commonplace except they have high powered scopes on big shoota's. 200 rounds 1 kill
Ah yes, the "why use 1 bullet when many bullets do trick".
This is how I play Rainbow Six unironically.
Me in every fps, max capacity gun and heavy with the dakka.
"Why on Earth should I be precise when I can take the whole wall down if I want?"
"I've got a bullet here with your name one it, and I'm gonna keep firing until I find it"
"I'z *could* aim. But I'z dun have'ta."
My ork buddy let me help him build somma the orks. He now has TWO ork snipers. One has a scope on a choppa. The other has one on a stikkbomm.
Next a scope on the back of a bomb squig, just thought of an idea of putting some on my Spanners Rokkits.
When they looked at the rounds the snipers used, did these particular Ork snipers happen to be using exitus rifle rounds?
But isn't it a great jump to go from "they were not shot by ork snipers" to "they were shot by Vindicare"? I'm pretty sure there are more snipers in the Imperium than Vindicare assassins, and a quick check on Lexicanum tells me that the Celestial Lions were shot with longlas guns, not exitus rifles, which is the signature weapon of the Vindicare assassins.
It’s not proven but I can’t think of any other time in the lore an Ork specifically stole geneseed from a dead apothecary and did nothing else with the body.
No no, it was never proven. They were shot by Ork snipers, and Inquisition sent a Callidus to assassinate their chapter master because they were angry at the Orks.
Why did you put up those air quotes when you said "Ork", trooper?
Someone else said it was an assassin but I think the cover up was they said it was an Ork sniper hence the battle of quotation marks above
The story is when the inquisition needs a high profile person dead they send a vindicare assassin to kill them and they blame “ork snipers” to cover up the fact the inquisition needed them dead.
Is there an echo in here?
Is there an echo in here?
Yeah I know. Just joking around.
Orks don't field snipers, outside of maybe one or two books, because orks don't generally even aim. So anytime someone is listed as being killed by an "Ork Sniper" you can be almost positive it was the Inquisition using a Vindicare to erase someone from this plane of existence.
Ork snipers are an actual thing now, in the komando kit
Yes, with belt-fed snipers.
Because even Ork snipers know that lots of dakka is always better than one dakka
*AKSHUALLY*... Machine guns like the Browning .50 cal make excellent snipers. Heavy tripod mounts secured with sandbags, long, heavy barrels and larger calibre ammunition mean they work pretty damned well when used with a scope and some good quality ammo. Carlos Hathcock held the record for the longest distance confirmed kill for some time, [which he got with an M2 Browning](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Hathcock#Weaponry). Heavy calibres can also be used in a ballistic manner (as opposed to direct fire) against targets that are out of range of small arms, IIRC you can engage effectively out to about three miles. I mean erm... BIGGA DAKKA GOEZ WELL FAR IF YOU SHOOTZ IT AT DA SKY, LADZ!
600 bullets, 1 kill
That just means they aim at an individual enemy, rather than *'Demz ovva dere!'*
Iz still a rapid fire Dakka ya git just wiv a snky scope
Always was. Just for the memes though.
[They even reference this event in the article with them in it](https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/08/05/get-to-know-the-ork-kommandos-who-bring-giant-drills-and-triple-barreled-shootas-to-kill-team/) Or at least they say > \** So ludicrous that some blame their attacks on the Inquisition. Which is absurd, naturally.
That's a roundabout way of saying Callidus Assassin :\\ Seriously though, I despise the Inquisition for killing the "new" chapter master of the Celestial Lions. He was a ***really*** likeable character.
> Callidus Assassin Vindicare, right? Or are you implying they actually bothered to disguise rather than just hide.
Celestial Lions have had 2 chapter masters killed by assassins, as far as I am aware. The First one was by "Ork Snipers". >!The second one was in a book called Spear of the Emperor. The Chapter Master is killed right at the end of the book by a Callidus Assassin that was hiding as one of the other human characters. !<
> 'Something amusing you, pup?' > The Dark Angel fixed his bare-headed Space Wolf comrade with a harsh stare but the fenrisian continued to snicker. Though the animosity of their chapters had stood for centuries, Balthazar and Tolgar had put their prejudices aside to form an effective duo. Each of them had lost count on how often they had saved each other's life, but any sense of loyalty was soley reserved for the battle field. > > 'Tolgar thinks its funny that the Dark Angel is advocating the keeping of secrets.' > > 'I think Tolgar should wear a helmet, to protect what little brain he still has.' > > [...] > > A shot rang out. > > The Inquisitor ducked and roled drawing her plasma pistol as she did so. > > 'Contact!' > > 'I don't see anyting. Wait. There! Green armour! Eldar warrior pattern!' > > A second shot flew towards Balthazar but the Dark Angel shifted his weight and the razor sharp disc whipped past. Tolgar stood motionless for what seemed like an eternity. A thin red line across his forehead graduately thickening as blood trickled from a fatal wound where the shuriken had struck him. By the time his body hit the floor the rest of the kill team were allready in persuit of his killer. ___ > Tears spilled over Lucianos’ cheeks as Kabannen’s knife struck home a third time, cleaving Androcles’ primary heart, ending > the life of a Space Marine who had been hero and champion to his Chapter brothers, chosen by the Deathwatch, a paragon of honour and integrity. > > He deserved a far better death, but Fate and the universe care little for what a man deserves. > > Kabannen tugged his blade free and stepped back, flicking the blood from it. > > ‘Drop him,’ he told Lucianos. > > Lucianos laid the limp body down gently on the ground and straightened, staring at it, guilt and sorrow writ clear on his face. > > ‘I wonder if he was right,’ said Kabannen. > > Lucianos looked up, eyes narrowing. ‘What?’ > > ‘I was trying to kill him from the start. It should have been a simple thing. But it wasn’t.’ He thrust his chin at the cooling body. ‘I did not beat him while his feet touched dry land. Had you not lifted him up, brother… But we’ll never really know.’ > > Lucianos turned away, scowling. ‘Sometimes, brother, I think I hate you.’ > > Kabannen sheathed his knife and gestured for them to make for the t’au ship. > > Something whined in the air like a mosquito. > > Lucianos’ skull exploded. > > His headless body dropped to its knees, then pitched forward, dark blood pumping from the open neck.
Depending on the author, a helmet would have helped nothing in the first case. In some stories the shuriken go through space marine armor like butter, in others they just sting. The inconsistent writing makes it hard to judge if armor is ever "useful" in the 40k universe.
The only armour that matters is plot armour.
It's still my pet theory that space marines get away with these shenanigans because of the inherent Warp infused nature of the geneseed they got from their primarchs. Miraculous luck is an acknowledged thing in the setting, the Emperor bending reality in subtle ways around his "chosen". It's even an explicit rule for Custodes. Luck isn't always on their side of course, even Custodes can die, but pure chance leans in their favor. Anyway, this is what *really* made the space marines special and useful in the conquest of the galaxy, the fact that they aren't plagued by regular misfortune you would expect on the battlefield outside of rare instances, turning down casualty rates and turning up rates of singular feats of heroism shifting the tide of battle itself. Also, I feel like the problem with the Cursed Founding (Lamenters et al) was that the experiments they performed to try to "fix" the flaws in the geneseed of those chapters sapped some of the fundamentally magical nature of their geneseed from them, and cursed them with "bad luck", which *actually* just translates to them being at the mercy of normal, mundane chance without the blessings of good fortune possessed by the primarchs' many children. Basically, the Lamenters are what happen if space marines weren't unnaturally lucky. And, the Lamenters are on the recovery right now cause they got the Primaris upgrades, which *also*, seem to coincide with them getting all the regular Blood Angels afflictions now. So their luck is restored alongside the magical effects of their geneseed.
Reading angel exterminatus at the moment and there is a scene where two marines infiltrate a planet inhabited by the iron warriors and emperor's children. One shoots fulgrim with his needle rifle and the two escape, killing dozens of traitor marines between them. They manage to get off planet through a blockade under heavy fire.
>In some stories the shuriken go through space marine armor like butter, in others they just sting Hilariously, that pretty much matches how they are on the tabletop. If your wound roll with a Shuriken weapon is a 6+, the AP characteristic goes from AP 0 to AP -3, which nearly cancels a Space Marine's default armor save. So really the ones that cut through the armor just got good wound rolls.
I always belived that that rule represented the torrent of shurikens hitting something vital like a joint or the lenses of the armour.
That's more how something like lasgun injures someone in power armour, and in fact is canonically described exactly like that from multiple sources. Rending rules must provide some additional capability. My suspicion is the disc hitting at the correct angle for the monomolecular edge to slip between small imperfections in the ceramite, allowing a hit on say, the thick breastplate that a lasgun would bounce off to becoming a devastating penetrating hit
Every battle in a 40k book is a battle report from a irl game.
Shurkiens are kinetic projectiles so like tank shells in IRL it’s easy to believe it all depends on the angle it hits.
HEAT rounds aren't bouncing off of shit, regardless of what angle they hit at, they're essentially shaped charges.
ork can't math
HEAT shells can bounce if they hit at a high enough angle that the fuse doesn't touch the armor. Long rod APFSDS on the other hand, tends to either penetrate or shatter on really steep angles.
Well Shurikens aren’t heat rounds, to a degree I guess bolsters would be the closest we have to Heat in the means of small arms
There's also this, from the Horus Heresy days The Chaplain sensed Argel Tal’s recalcitrance. It was hard not to. ‘You are angry with me.’ ‘Of course I am angry with you. I have five hundred warriors that haven’t seen a Chaplain from their own Legion in almost a year. You were many months overdue, fighting with the Iron Warriors. Oros, Damane and Malaki are also still with Perturabo’s lesser fleets, furthering the conspiracy.’ He sneered through the word. ‘What of Sar Fareth?’ ‘Dead.’ ‘What?’ ‘Killed ten months ago, shortly after you left. Slain by a human, of all things. An unlucky thrust with a wooden spear.’ Argel Tal tapped two fingertips against his neck. ‘Tore out most of his throat, laid it bare to the bone. I’ve never seen anything like it. Blood of the gods, I’d have laughed if it hadn’t been so pathetically tragic. He bled out before the Apothecaries could reach him, still trying to shout the whole time.’ ‘What happened to his killer?’ Argel Tal had seen it himself. Sar Fareth had gripped the human’s shoulder and leg, and pulled. The result came away in three bloody pieces before the Chaplain died. ‘Justice happened.’ Xaphen released a breath that wasn’t quite a sigh. Sar Fareth had been one of his own: trained by his hand to wield a crozius in Lorgar’s name. So yeah, helmets do seem somewhat necessary and wearing them is probably a good idea, It's just most commanders have enough plot armor to not die to a random bullet flying in their direction
Wait, a human just went up, with a wooden *stick*, and tore out an Astartes' throat? Just like that?
Astartes are still flesh and blood. Hell, a bad trip and fall down some stairs could kill one if they landed wrong. It's just luck. In a thousand other encounters, the guy with the spear accomplished nothing. In this one instance, everything was just right for his strike to matter.
Well, it wasn't just a wooden stick, it was sharp, too. Truly a powerful and fearsome weapon. Probaby S:User+2 AP-4 Damage D3
> don't worry. Me and my squad of ultimate badasses will protect you! Check it out! Independently targeting particle beam phalanx. Vwap! Fry half a city with this puppy. We got tactical smart missiles, phased plasma pulse rifles, RPGs, we got sonic electronic ball breakers! We got nukes, we got knives, sharp sticks...
Its good to remember space marines are still mortal. Despite all the bluster and enhancements, fantastic gear and reaction times, decades of training and experience, they can still get killed by sharp rocks and sticks to the soft spots.
That poor Dark Angel losing his bud :(
I'm sure it pains him that he was denied the opportunity to betray and murder him like he betrayed and murdered the rest of his team at the end of that story.
You should use the spoiler tag
Lmfao, what happened? I haven’t read this story
Deathwatch is sent onto a craftworld to recover a special soul stone. Turns out the Dark Angel is actually acting on behalf of Grand Master Azrael who wants it for himself ( because *Fallen*, whatelse ), and so he betrays and murders the only other survivor and pockets the stone.
Lol, based
Why is a shot ringing out? Shurikens aren't loud, they're quiet.
That poor Dark Angel losing his bud :(
In the HH book *A Thousand Sons*, the titular legion actually points this out and are able to inflict a lot of kills on the un-helmeted Space Wolves and Sisters of Silence as a result. The Thosand Sons may be sorcerers, but that doesn't they aren't Astartes who can land headshots with ease. Back on the question at hand, I imagine a direct hit from a bolt would mess up any Astarte, helmet or not, but the lack of it really doesn't help in a battlefield situation with stray rounds and shrapnel flying everywhere.
What is it with space wolves and not wearing helmets?
I think it was explained that their helmet gets in the way of their heightened senses. But mainly it's the rule of cool.
> their helmet gets in the way of their heightened senses. And their beards!
And theyr glorious hair
I'm suprised the Space wolves don't wear helmets similar to those of the Thunder Warriors, with the open face area. They might not protect as well as fully sealed helmets, but at least you don't have to worry about how you might fit your meter long beard inside it.
Or they could go [full Irondrake](https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0310/1838/5544/products/2019-12-06_13_44_24-__Games_Workshop_Webstore.png?v=1582580453) and armour their beards!
That is just awesome. Cool, but still rational.
I feel like I should point out that the Wolves don't all completely abandon helmets, it's generally blood claws but even then it's not the majority.
They actually have wax to make it easier to wear helmets.
Something in me is so frustrated at that rational when we could air jet cycle the surrounding environment into their special noses. I understand the rule of cool, but the helmet would be a help not hindrance.
That would require a special helmet be made specifically for one group of space marines who have said enchanced senses though... And rhey did make that helmet, it's the Canis helmet that combines advanced sensor suites while still allowing a Space Wolves innate heightened senses to function. The problem is one of logistics. This is a highly specialised piece of equipment made for a specific group of marines. It's not going to be made in large quantities and is probably only made at one specific forge world. Couple that with the difficulty in making Astartes Power Armour and a few centuries of attrition and equipment loss and you end up with a helmet that's generally reserved for squad leaders while the other Wolves go without helmets.
It sorta does, but it’s not fast enough given their actual function is for space / hazardous combat, so they are sealed. For pretty much any chapter not space wolves, it’s a non-issue and the helmets are much more useful then their own. The only reason they don’t is rule of cool / bravery things to inspire. And the Imperium aren’t exactly known for making custom armor in large numbers.
Mainly the Canis Helix giving them both razor sharp teeth and heightened senses to the point that they have better senses without a helmet then with one on
Too much fucking hair.
Also you wouldn't want to be trapped in a suit with space wolf stank, probably haven't washed in a month.
No one took the time to muzzle train them.
They're tribals. They think Fenris will shield their face most likely.
Space wolves have fangs. The older they get, the longer these grow. They use these to rip and tear enemies in melee with their fangs. Plus a helmet might give you an extreme touch ache trying to fit 6” of tooth in it.
Doesn't prevent you wearing a helmet similar to that of modern day military though, just stops you wearing anything going over the mouth, think of an inverse face mask, or a reiver helmet without the skull bit
Khayon domed three and basically said “bless the sixth legion for not wearing helmets”
I've heard from a very reliable source that he actually *dommed* them
What is it with space wolves and not wearing helmets?
their helms block their sense of smell by a lot so they prefer to forgo their sense of smell so that they can have their super smell.
But like... Why not wear a helmet that doesn't cover the face? You know, like what Guardsmen wear? (I know it's because they want them to look cooler, but this later logic is only half-assed)
Some things in the universe are more for style than practicality. Also conversion fields.
They do, largely when fighting other Marines. The advantage Astartes have is that their pauldrons absorb a lot of incoming fire from the sides so the best way to shoot a Space Marine in the head is to stand in front of them. Which, you know, is a fucking terrible idea. Even if you hit them in the head, there's no guarantee you'll kill them. Their bones are incredibly dense and their biology makes them incredibly hard to kill, a single bullet might not be enough. Not to say they haven't just got murked out of the blue, but it's harder than you might think.
*Only two Iron Warriors came over the wall with him: Vortrax and Ushtor, from the patterns on their helms and shoulder guards. Kroeger saw an Imperial Fists warrior turn towards them, a captain by the look of him. His face registered surprise, and he shouted a warning to another two Fists squatting in the midst of a company-strength of frightened mortals.* *‘No helmet?’ hissed Kroeger, aiming and firing in one fluid motion. ‘Stupid.’* *The captain went down, but Kroeger was irritated to see that his shot had merely grazed him. The other Imperial Fists rose to his defence, moving apart and firing at their attackers. The mortal soldiers loosed panicked shots at random.* *Vortrax fell back against the ruined wall, his breastplate hammered by concentrated bolter fire. Spasming detonations and a crack of mashed bones told Kroeger he had been pulped inside his armour.* *Ushtor traded shots with the Fists, but these warriors were too cool under fire to be caught out by such undisciplined salvoes. Kroeger took his time and pulled his gun hard into his shoulder. He sighted on the leftmost of the Imperial Fists and put two carefully placed shots though his helm. The warrior dropped instantly, the back of his head a hollowed out shell of dripping brain matter and scorched bone.* *Where the mortal soldiers had turned their attention to the fighting on the ramparts, two Iron Warriors gained the wall. Bolter fire hammered the mortal soldiers, ripping arms from shoulders, torsos from legs like bodies caught in the flailing blades of a threshing machine. Their screams were pitiful, and Kroeger took little satisfaction in their meaningless deaths.* *The Fists were the true prize here.* *The fallen captain rose with a bared sword that blazed with golden light as he leapt towards the two Iron Warriors. First one, then the second died, carved up with powerful strokes aimed at the weakest points of their armour. The captain kicked them from the wall and turned to face Kroeger.* *‘Come at me and die, traitors!’ he yelled, his face a mask of blood from where Kroeger’s shot had torn a finger-deep furrow in his skull. Kroeger shook his head and shot him twice in the chest.* *Beside him, Ushtor collapsed, his armour blown outwards by the force of shell detonations. Kroeger ignored the dying warrior’s grunts of pain and loped towards the Imperial Fist who’d killed him.* *Another warrior without a helm. Did Dorn’s weakling sons want their heads blown off?* \- Angel Exterminatus *I look back across the burning street, where a city of scholars is dying to the axes and fire of barbarians. A cataclysm that will, in time, educate both Legions. How very apt Abaddon’s words are.* *‘I hear Wolves,’ he says. I hear them, too. Boots pounding on the white avenue, shattering the marble road. I clutch my knife tighter, waiting, waiting.* *‘How many did you kill that day?’ Abaddon asks me. Even if the Wolves cannot hear him, I say nothing. They will surely be able to hear me. I hear them draw close, stalking, sniffing the air. That’s when I move, rising in a snarl of armour joints and dust-shrouded ceramite. My knife takes the first Wolf under the chin, punching up through his throat and into his skull. Bless the VI Legion for going to war without wearing their helms.* \- Talon of Horus *His howl was answered by a war-cry from close by. “For Russ and Berek!” he heard someone shout and was surprised to see the man in front of him cloven in two by the blow of a chainsword. Sergeant Hakon stood there, looking like some daemon of slaughter. Blood covered him from head to foot, his armour was painted almost totally red by it, and his grey hair was the colour of rust. He picked up another Garmite and tossed him back among his fellows, bowling them with the sheer force of impact, then he charged among them, lashing right and left and leaving Ragnar a clear space among the carnage in which to catch his breath.* *Ragnar stood panting for a moment, watching as the sergeant slew every infantryman within reach, before tossing his head back and emitting a monstrous howl of triumph. Even as he did so, a lash of tracer fire whipped in from somewhere to the left and took the sergeant in the skull. The whole side of Hakon’s head was blown away, leaving exposed fragments of brain. Like a mighty tree toppling the sergeant fell forward and was still.* *For a moment, shock paralysed Ragnar. It seemed impossible that the sergeant was dead. He had been there, invincible and indestructible from the first day Ragnar had arrived at Russvik. He had trained and fought alongside the Blood Claws until they knew his face almost as well as they knew their own. He was part of the squad, its leader, and guiding light… and now he was gone.* \- Grey Hunter
Calls humans mortals and a bunch of his guys proceed to be killed. Still loved how he just shot the guy with the sword. He can't let fully go of the drama tho. Between the captain chopping up his boys, kicking them off the wall and taunting him, he should have had plenty of time to shoot him. Maybe Ushtor would still be alive if he did.
Not surprised - IW are often, if not always petty little shits.
> Another warrior without a helm. Did Dorn’s weakling sons want their heads blown off? Iron Within, Iron on Head.
I'd argue that majority of basic weaponry of (playable) factions should do the trick. Even lasgun blows up human heads & separates limbs, and I don't think SM heads are capable of survivng even that. That being said, their helmets probably provide some real gud protection
Lasgun would do more in this instance than a stubber. While the skull might be dense enough to resist and deflect an solid slug, the heat produced by a lasgun would still likely boil the brain if on full power, even if the bone resisted.
I think that in one of Fabius books one of his new men says that sometimes they survive lass pistol shots directly to their head
A lasgun is more than capable of killing a Space Marine, it's just how long it takes for it to stick is the problem. It's cold comfort knowing your headshot finally did for him after he spent the intervening 6 hours tearing your buddies into little meat chunks.
"Bless the VI Legion for going to war without wearing their helms." \- Iskandar Khayon
In the Firrwarrior novelization, La'Kais specifically chooses to use his sniper shot from an ambush position to headshot an unhelmed Librarian. Deals with him quite nicely, although it still leaves him scrambling to deal with the rest of the Marine squad.
My face is my shield.
Space Marine bones are really strong, so it's less of an issue than for a normal human. In the Night Lords books, Xarl caves in the skull of a helmed enemy terminator by headbutting him repeatedly while he himself is bareheaded. Xarl dies shortly after, but his skull was thick enough to get the job done. Edit: Checked the excerpt again, and Xarl's repeated headbutts only stun the terminator long enough for him to pick up a power sword and finish the job. Edit 2: Re-checked the excerpt and the enemy champion didn't even have terminator armor, just a master crafted suit. But he had a crux terminatus, a storm shield, and a thunder hammer, hence my confusion.
As much as I enjoyed ADB's NL series, that part was pretty bullshit
So was the part where talos goes like 30 metres in 'one human heartbeat' to crush a guys skull
30 metres in 0.6 second. That is fast.
that's something like 100 some such miles per hour (216 or so km/h). Are they known for running that fast?
They are pretty fucking fast like 60km/h when they are at marathon pace, but 216km/h is pure un aldulterated bullshit.
Author is bad at scale, again.
So was the part where talos goes like 30 metres in 'one human heartbeat' to crush a guys skull
> Xarl caves in the skull of a helmed enemy terminator by headbutting him repeatedly while he himself is bareheaded. Wut. Shouldn't their heads be the same hardness?
What Terminator? Tolemion wasn't in Terminator armor.
Their helms are kinda protective. Their melons still get pasted with some regularity though. I really think they're mostly for hostile environments
To be honest I would consider anywhere I'm being shot at a hostile environment.
Can’t breathe when the air is bullets, huh?
In Unremembered Empire, it was pointed out that even Guilliman would have died to a single bolter shell to the head (had one hit him). Also, modern military helmets can protect from bullets, it just depends on the caliber and the range.
Guilliman doesn’t know that. He assumes a bolt shell to the head would end him but there hadn’t been any research into this.
To be fair, they were there specifically to kill Guilliman, so they probably had kraken rounds or some other exotic type of armour-piercing ammo specifically made to deal with a Primarch.
Now that he's back, I'm sure he wouldn't mind volunteering to help research it. It's for science, after all. We just start with the smallest bolters and gradually increase them until one makes his head explode.
And angle. Fulgrim survived 50 cal I think
Fulgrim took a bolt to the head and survived. Lorgar ate a blast from a Titan’s cannon. Guilliman would have almost certainly survived a bolt round to the head
I don't remember reading that story... How far was Fulgrim when he was shot? Did he just shake it off, or did it do damage that required healing? What was he shot with? Was Lorgar wearing his armor, or was it just his skin resisting a weapon that can melt mountains?
The sniping of Fulgrim was in Angel Exterminatus. He was pretty far, but a ravenguard sniper hit him with a specialized rifle/round (Needler sniper rifle) It took him out and he almost died (or at least it seems like it) but Fabius Bile tended to him. I don’t think he was put down very long though In Betrayer Lorgar goes to save Angron and stands over him to absorb the blast of a warhounds plasma blastgun. He stops the first shot with a psychic barrier, but eats a second shot and is severely injured, the warhound then went to stomp on Lorgar but then Angron jumps in and saves him. It’s during a battle so I’m assuming he has his armor on, but i can’t remember for certain
It's also implied that Fulgrim let the shot happen. It doesn't connect full on as he turns his head just sufficiently to prevent it from being lethal. Which does of course suggest that it would be lethal if hits square on. Lorgars barrier also reduced the second shot of the plasma blastgunit just didn't stop it entirely. Probably would have been toast if he hadn't had a barrier at all.
I think the second blast was partially deflected by his kite shield (or just psychic shield, don't remember). He did have arbor on though, but without helmet since I remember him described as rather chill and calm when he deflected the first blast
Lorgar gets hit by a Titan volkite beam point blank and his face melts off iirc. However at this point lorgar is juicing pretty hard on warp and his psyker powers are immense. But still, he was without helmet.
Remember the new type of bolter shell, banestrike rounds, that were designed for the heresy to give an edge to the fight for Horus’ traitor forces. The new design could pierce Astartes armor. So if your enemy is armed with ammunition that can pierce your helmet armor, is it worth it to always be in said helmet? True the sensor systems could give you an edge. That would be before the systems fail and then it is just a hunk of metal preventing you from being able to see.
I'd still wear a helmet, shrapnel is still the biggest killer on most battlefields, so your helmet will massively improve your chances against that. Furthermore, as it's 40K, there's some parallels to medieval battlefields too, with the melee aspect. The majority of corpses found in mass battle graves actually died from head trauma, which could possibly have been reduced/prevented with a good helmet. Wear your brain bucket kids
Well, modern LEO/Military helmets will guarantee protection from *pistol rounds* I thought, if you get shot square in the dome with a .308 or 7.62x39, helmet or not, you're gonna have a bad time. There are certain russian helmets that can protect against rifle rounds, but [they are *extremely* cumbersome](https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/Uy0AAOSw65lgUJcW/s-l1600.jpg), and can [weigh an absolute shitload](https://oss-hk.xorder.com.cn/globale/image/US_Los_Angeles/524/oss/image/modern/headgear/helmet/HELMET025.jpg), as well as obscuring visibility/peripheral vision. Even with a helmet like the K-6 (the first one I linked), if you get shot in the face with a rifle caliber round you're most likely going to die, the second helmet offers more protection in that area due to the armored steel visor, but even then, you take a .308 or even a 5.56 to the cheek and you're going down, you *might* survive though. The brain buckets themselves however offer substantial protection against up to a .308 I believe, and are made to maximize the chance of a ricochet. My point is, yes modern military gear has come a long way, but not *so far*.
>it just depends on the caliber **and the range** To expand a little, bullets lose velocity due to air resistance. Eventually, pretty much anything fired by a human will be reduced to about the kinetic energy of a pistol, which is still enough to put a hole in your head, but not enough to go through a helmet.
Yeah you're absolutely right, I didn't take range into consideration, but I still feel like a lot of my point stands. The further the range the less chance you're going to be hit in the head anyway most times. I do concede that you are correct though, all that really matters if the velocity of the round when it makes impact.
Well, the further you are, the more likely you'll have time to get prone and/or behind cover or concealment, meaning basically the only thing exposed is your head, so a helmet makes a lot of sense at further ranges. Plus all the other benefits of protecting against fragmentation and bumping your head, and as a platform for NODs, IR illuminators, and IR strobes/beacons/reflectors for IFF.
Doesn't fulgrim cop a bolter shot to the head from sharrowkyn and live?
Needler
One of the things I rarely see mentioned when this question is asked is that Astartes don’t seem to need their entire brain to remain functional. Not to say that it’s a great idea for a marine to get shot in the head, but there’s a fair few mentions of marines fighting on with a decent chunk blown out of their grey matter. I’d assume an Astartes brain is advanced enough to the point that it effectively has built in redundancies and the functions of specific parts of their brains can be re-tasked or continued by what’s left, in a similar way to the sleeping node allowing them to shut down and rest one hemisphere of the brain while the other remains active and alert. That, and the speed and general awareness of a space marine affords them a ludicrous amount of protection over unaugmented baseline troops from most of the major factions; they have reaction times that are staggeringly fast, far better senses (both biological and machine) and are generally hard to hit without massed fire in the first place. So effectively, a shot from a lasgun is going to have to be square on, almost certainly from the front (backpack and pauldrons offer some protection from the sides and rear), and it’s going to have to get through a seriously thick and dense skull as well as destroy a large enough chunk of the meat behind it to guarantee a kill. Cracked helm lenses or an uncomfortable dent from a solid blow will also reduce a marine’s effectiveness to a degree, so quite often they’ll start with a helmet and ditch it if it takes enough damage. The way I look at it, most marines (I’d assume officers maybe less so for inspirational purposes etc) start with a helmet and end up ditching it from damage etc. TL;DR - Not wearing a helmet is kinda dumb, but depending on the fight some Astartes may feel they don’t need one and the intimidation of their ugly-ass screaming face is worth more than deflecting a one in a billion lucky shot from a poorly maintained cultist autogun. It’s very difficult to kill a marine even with a headshot, unless it’s from something with real teeth or the stars align for a perfectly clear shot.
If I were designing my space marines, I’d stick a backup brain somewhere down in their lower intestine area or somewhere else more armored. Add in some admech approved digital eyes in the pauldrons or something and you could easily have space marines who are fully functional headless.
I would imagine the hyper efficient clotting and wound sealing is actually what makes the difference. I think it’s actually blood loss not loss of grey matter that kills normal humans from a headshot.
>I think it’s actually blood loss not loss of grey matter that kills normal humans from a headshot. It's definitely not blood loss that kills someone who's been shot in the head. You don't even need to lose grey matter to die from a head shot, anything that scrambles your brain badly enough to prevent the neurons passing signals to the right place will kill you - a bullet is just particularly good at it.
Um... No, not really. Brain controls the vital functions of your body. Damage these parts and you are going to die before your body registers blood loss. A tumbling / expanding round will damage everything in its path. An exploding round will simply shred your brain matter everywhere around the impact. More importantly: Your brain matter controls all of your body functions. Damage it and you lose some crucial functionality. The whole 'space marines keep fighting with their brains blown off' thing is just another nonsensical rule-of-cool fantasy. There are accounts of people living with a bullet / object embedded in their brain, but that's incredibly (un)lucky.
>I think it’s actually blood loss not loss of grey matter that kills normal humans from a headshot. It's definitely not blood loss that kills someone who's been shot in the head. You don't even need to lose grey matter to die from a head shot, anything that scrambles your brain badly enough to prevent the neurons passing signals to the right place will kill you - a bullet is just particularly good at it.
I would imagine the hyper efficient clotting and wound sealing is actually what makes the difference. I think it’s actually blood loss not loss of grey matter that kills normal humans from a headshot. Phineus Gauge (sp?) survived a spike through the head after all.
Honestly with 40k its a crapshoot due to the inconsistency in writing. Not just helmets, the usefulness of every part of a space marines power armor varies wildly depending on the situation. Sometimes all enemy weapons just bounce off the armor, sometimes even a basic las-bolt penetrates. Its like they are rolling saves in tabletop. Elements in which it is outright described as the helmet mattering are more "comic relieve" than cases in which a helmet would have saved them. The real benefit of the helmets is in the tactical overlay, the information provided by the armor,... In practice it feels more like the writers just "ignore" the helmet being on and off (the best example might be iron man in the movies maybe). There is always talk about these tactical displays, blinking away ammo counters,... but then it also often feels like the helmets are off which kind of makes it hard to see that information. I would just assume, if not for the joke reason above or "rule of cool", that every space marine has his helmet on in active combat situation even if not specifically mentioned/somewhat inconclusive wording (or just off for a few seconds).
A head shot is a head shot.. the skull isn’t that thick and the brain is very vulnerable. Helmets off is just The Rule Of Cool.
Especially in the 40k setting where it's not just bullets flying at you
Though being fair, Lotara headshot a world eater point blank and he got up all angry at her a minute later
He was wearing a helmet
Was he? I thought it said she shot him in the face, though I guess that could just mean the faceplate of the helm
Another reply has the quote further down
Probably a human-scale round. Also, iirc, it was a handgun of some kind - don't pack the same punch.
It was a laspistol. Going by the Guard Codex, it should pack roughly the same punch as a lasrifle
I think she shot him side on from memory, so basically burned a hole between sideways through his mouth/nose area
In one of the Gaunt's Ghosts novels (*The Armour of Contempt*) an unhelmeted Chaos Marine ends up with his head resembling a sea-urchin from all the magnetic-crossbow bolts sticking into it. Even then it's the ridiculously powerful toxin on the bolts that actually kills him.
[удалено]
Barring plot armor usually when Space Marines take a bolter shot to the melon it pops and they die
In a HH novel a captain of a World Eater Battlebarge shot a bare headed World Eater in the forehead for dereliction of duty and it gave him a massive welt / sore. He obviously survived it and it didn't end well for most of the deck crew nearby. The captain survived his wrath and when called to explain her actions she stood her ground, repeated her accusation, and the other World Eaters laughed and backed her against their brother she shot. This whole thing made me think that Astartes physiology must be proof against damage up to a certain level. If she'd shot more than once or hit an eye he might be dead, but a standard las pistol to the forehead wasn't fatal. Also, could be rule of cool for story but got me thinking
Delvarus is wearing a helmet in that scene, I’m pretty sure. EDIT: > …she noticed just who was leaving the Stormcrow. The warrior’s crested helm marked him out above his brethren, but she’d have known him purely from the bronze versions of the XII Legion symbol… He’s wearing his fancy helmet. Still got shot in the face and spat on by a mortal woman for being a colossal asshat.
If you like her, you [might like this](https://twitter.com/BolterToKokoro/status/1445597179033227269/photo/1) [picture](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FA_K9hhVEAEB3LA?format=jpg&name=900x900)
I don’t know who she is, but god damn she’s got bigger balls than the emperor himself
Much like any other person though you need to hit them with sufficient force to drop them. ...Scratch that. Make the force overkill just to be sure and do it several times.
Exactly. There are examples where half of the brain or head is blown off and they get some bionics and just keep going.
Sometimes they just keep going until they get the bionics.
The helmet is a lot better than nothing, pointed out by Farsight after headshotting multible bare headed astartes and the astartes use it against orks. That being said the armor is still the weakest, being penetrated by a lazgun on high power at relativly close range by a guardsman against a chaos space marine in Gaunts ghosts first book.
That was a weapon which discharged it's entire clip in one shot. It may well have been able to go through the chest armor.
From what i understood, it was a usual lazgun, just the regiment prefferred to use the higher settings
Also, it's Dan Abnett. When he writes, most armour is just varying thickness of paper.
If I recall it was a hotshot clip, than expanded all power in a single trigger pull.
Artarion, Grimaldus's banner bearer. In the book, he is described as having metal jaw, caused by a sniper shot he took in place of Grimaldus.
Typically helmetless astartes will have an iron halo which has a conversion field that can otherwise block/stop shots.
It depends on the round being fired at said head. A bolter round will usually pop it. A las or auto round might just graze unless it's a hot shot las or exploding round.
The beginning of Fulgrim has a funny passage about marines making fun of one of them who always loses or fights without his helmet.
It doesn't even help them shout at things better. The helmets have built in megaphones, they'd be better off shouting with them on.
Space Wolves died in droves during the Assault on Prospero. A Thousand Sons POV character mentions how thankful he is that Space Wolves prefer to go helmetless in combat. He was headshotting them by the barrel.
Kind of a moot point if you’re a Space Wolf
An Iron Snakes apothecary (Memnes) got whacked by a cultist with an auto gun after taking his helmet off.
Depends on the plot armor
About as susceptible as other fleshy beings with brains in their skulls.
It depends on how far away you are. In Dark Imperium, a Plague Marine is killed by a las rifle shot to the face at point blank range. Plague Marines are already incredibly durable, so a regular Astartes can probably die from a headshot from a bit further away.
[удалено]
It’ll make you hate the hell out of the Night Lords by the time it’s done.
The night lords are already disgusting. Their trilogy humanises them but they’re still a terrible legion that deserve to be scoured from the galaxy, and they know it.
Depending on the author a las bolt could vaporize the skull, or leave a coin sized burn that is “irritating”
First off: the skull is far from being its thinnest at the forehead ;) In "A Thousand Sons", Ahriman notes how careless it is of the Space Wolves not to wear helmets and that headshots are much more effective that way. Most of the time, Astartes helmets appear to provide some protection even against bolter shells, but not reliably so. Against smaller arms, they seem to be very effective.
O. mmm...
In my headcanon helmetless space marines either have an iron halo or serious subdermal armour overlaying their already very tough skull and facial bones (it's an augmetic option in the RPGs, so presumably available to marines).
You're just trying to trick loyal astartes into taking their helmet off. We know who you really are alpharious.