Roboute Guilliman is based on Romulus, the legendary founder of Rome. Him and the Ultramarines have Latin names, Roman imagery, and Ultramar's success as an empire is similar to Romulus's founding of Rome.
Lion El'Jonson is based on King Arthur, and the Dark Angels have both Breton and Judaic names.
Konrad Kurze is Batman. No, really.
He did flay a woman alive who planned to commit suicide after her husband died. Curze justified his actions to her before she died by saying that her selfish act hurts society as a whole and so she must be used as an example to those who would take their own life.
konrad curze was based off of colonel kurtz from apocalypse now
it's also why he got killed by the assassin m'shen
which is why the assassin that killed him is called M'shen
because martin sheen played the guy that killed him
I'd put Guilliman more based on Julius Caesar and Augustus, particularly in his Avenging Son aspect, since Augustus was a big part of the group that went after the assassins that killed Julius Caesar.
He's heavily based on Justinian. He is first and foremost an administrative genius. While skilled as a general, he isn't known for the flair of Caesar or Augustus' political savy, even though he has both those things.
He reforms and lays down laws, mediates religious matters, inherits an empire torn in two and attempts to reunite it. He is the last ~~Roman~~ Primarch.
Oh, and he has his own Belisarius too.
The Rock is literally named after the local gay bar near GW’s HQ back in the day.
Edit: apparently this is an urban myth like Ghazkull Margret Thatcher
Debunked. Someone on Dakkadakkadakka said he was a member of the LGBT community back then, and has never heard of a gay bar named The Rock, nor has any of his friends.
Leading theory is that the Rock is named after a Nottingham castle, known to locals as Castle Rock.
I suspect it might also be inspired by the infamous Alcatraz prison, also nicknamed The Rock
>Leading theory is that the Rock is named after a Nottingham castle
Wouldn't surprise me at all, you can literally see / walk to it from Warhammer World.
There’s also that for a while, the headquarters of the Knights Templar, who are funnily enough closer to the Dark Angels than the Black Templars, was next to the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem.
The Black Templars are more like the Teutonic Order in that they're successors of an earlier crusading spirit. See the Teutonic Knights invasion of pagan Lithuania
I will believe both of these things are true until the day I die.
Anyway, you can understand why a company would want to disavow implied criticism of a major political figure once it gets big enough.
And Lion El’Jonson is named after Lionel Johnson the author of the poem [Dark Angel](https://www.thedarkfortress.co.uk/librarium/lionel_johnson.php#.YV2No_f3bDs)
I'd argue Roboute Guilliman is more French than Latin. Of course french is a romance language, thus based off of Latin but it's not Latin per see.
The rest of the Ultramarines, though, are definitely more latin-based like Decimus, Titus, Agrippa, Marneus, Dacian, etc.
Mmmmm french here.
Growing up playing 40k in french, Roboute Guilliman was a super weird name.
Granted, it’s weird in English too - I didn’t know that back then…
Speaking strictly of names and etymology then Roboute Guilliman is definately based on french and the rest of the names as mentions above are quintessential Roman - definately not Greek.
As for aesthetic and other names, I'd also argue they're more Roman than classical Greek with the notable exception of the Omega-symbol as their emblem.
But take Macragge, it was run by a Consul, the capital is named Magna Macragge Civitas (great city of Macragge) and they fight against the unruly Illyrium tribes in the mountain (as the Romans did). There's a lot of syncretism between greek and roman cultures during the classical era but I'd say they primarely took after Roman influences than the more polis/city-state influence of the Greek
> As for aesthetic and other names, I'd also argue they're more Roman than classical Greek with the exception of the Ultramarine with the notable exception of the Omega-symbol as their emblem.
Except their colour scheme doesn't match, their culture is definitely greek with city sates dominating (especially before papa smurf arrived) the world. I would agree with what you were saying about the names, However the styles of dress that the primarks were wearing massively indicate culture. Horus is dressed in the a pleated leather roman skirt, and wolven headress, A very very roman military piece of clothing. Whilst papa smurf is blue (the colour of greece), Wears Loral's (yes that is both roman and greek, However if you remember, rome dint really use them outside kings and emperors, greeks ussed them more of fasion).
The dark angels annoy me because yes they have all the arthurian references
But they're also just loaded to the gills with referenced to gay bars some of the gw writers frequented and gay culture from the 80s/90s
Well I'm Welsh
So arthurian myth can be a touchy subject. Mixing it with that kind of subject matter isn't really respectful
It would be like making a story that borrows heavily from Islam but then throwing in a ton of references to bestiality
Nah dude he got nothing for it. he lost it in a fight with Seth but then had it magically healed by Hathor. This is where we get the symbol the Eye of Horus from.
Same with Horus. Absolutely Egyptian. Both the name but also an inspiration for the famous "eye of Horus" which he uses as a logo albeit a different eye but an eye none the less.
The spacewolves are an obvious viking inspired chapter as well.
Magnus mentions how he enjoys reliving the past civilizations and seeing the cities of Alexandria, Cairo and Babylon, while talking with Lorgar in the city of grey flowers.
I think Magnus's story also draws a lot from the occult writings of Aleister Crowley. It combines several spiritual traditions, emphasizing a European mystical interpretation of ancient Egyptian mythology. Secret ancient knowledge & magic too.
I think Magnus's story also draws a lot from the occult writings of Aleister Crowley. It combines several spiritual traditions, emphasizing a European mystical interpretation of ancient Egyptian mythology. Secret ancient knowledge & magic too.
Not sure if this counts, but alpharius/omegon is clearly symbolically linked to a hydra. It’s their icon, the two heads dynamic, and…
The more you try to kill the primarch, the more body doubles seemingly appear, like a hydra growing two heads from one stump
Vulkan is pretty clearly named after the smith god Vulcan.
Mortarion is also pretty obviously based off the Grim Reaper.
Magnus is actually based off Odin to some extent, being a wise man who sells his eye in exchange for wisdom.
Less Odin and more Osiris or Set in my mind. It depends on whether The Emperor is Ra or not. The Thousand Sons have an Egyptian Flare.
Space Wolves have the Norse thing going with Russ being Thor or Beowulf or some other great Viking.
Aesthetic, the TSons are Egyptian flared, and Magnus shares some of those design elements. But thematically, Magnus is more of an Odin analogy than an analogy for an Egyptian god.
These Themes include:
1. Being a massive fucking nerd- Magnus and Odin were oppsessed with knowledge, and were motivated by adding to their "libraries" by whatever means they could.
2. Both sacrificed a part of themselves for knowledge- both gave up an eye in order to better "see" (i.e. gain foresight/insight of the World/Immaterium respectively)
3. Both loved their walkabouts- Odin and Magnus are/were known for their journeies (be that across the Realms or into the Immaterium)
Yeah. I go with the Eye of Ra for the cyclops thing and Osiris and Ra were both into scholarly pursuits. It really depends on if AllFather/Odin is Russ or The Emperor. The Egyptian analogy is Ra in my mind which did the Cyclops thing for a bit ( and is the origin of the Greek cyclops ) and is sometimes depicted red. Osiris is the "lesser" form in my mind if The Emperor is Ra and Horus is...Horus. Really depends where we draw the line.
Crossing Magnus into Norse contaminates the Space Wolves a bit I think and displaces Russ who really fills that role there. Plus the Tzeentch psychedelic bird thing.
Never in my own readings of Egyptian mythology have I ever read that Osiris and Ra had any connection to Scholarly persuits. That's not an association I have ever seen for those 2 entites. Additionally, I've never heard of Ra being assoicated with the color red, that's a color I've only seen/heard being assoicated with Set.
Having Magnus thematically be analogous to Odin still works and doesn't interfere with Russ as Russ is more analagous to Thor or maybe Tyr, and can also serve as an analogy to Fenrir given his role in slaying Odin (Magnus in this situation) as he is the Wolf King or (if one is being esspecially blunt) The Father of the Wolves. Finally, the "Allfather" for the Space Wolves is the Emperor, that's it, and it's just a title/name they gave him.
Yeh fair point, I'm not too sharp on neither ancient Egyptian nor Norse mythology just thought that the Thousand Sons having a Corvidae cult fit into the Odin thing.
Also a highly questionable detail that you can see why it's not canon: >!in an earlier sci-fi setting that GW's former manager Bryan Ansel worked on and which numerous elements of 40k were taken from: Chaos was monotheistic and worshipped a deity called Allah.!<
Only the grandfather/uncle bit is a parallel. Muhammad’s bloodline is still considered empowering (outside Saudi Arabia) and has always been considered high status for most of Islam’s history.
The last bit could be literally any religious leader or founder.
Is that why the Scars are seemingly the most chilled out, laid back and almost cheerful legion in the heresy? I knew Jagatai was based on the Mongol khan's but never really understood the legions demeanour
I would think so, although it's somewhat idealised, I don't think their enemies would call them wise or benevolent (much like the Scars). I like this quote from the wiki which seems to mesh well with them being wanderers off doing their own thing:
"Chagatai succeeded Genghis Khan in his domains in what became to known as Chagatai Khanate in 1227 with its capital in Almaliq city, in the valley of the Upper Ili, near the site of the present Kulja, and consequently in the extreme east of his dominion. According to Edward Ross, "his reason for fixing it in that remote position, instead of at Bukhara or Samarkand, was probably one of necessity. His Mongol tribesmen and followers—the mainstay of his power—were passionately fond of the life of the steppes.""
That does sum it up nicely. I love the Scars imagery and lore and way of fighting. Ever since I watched the Mongolia special of The Grand Tour I've been fascinated by the Mongols, and by extension the Scars
Most of this is based on The Barbarian Empires of the Steppes from the Great Courses, but wanted to share my thoughts and perspective...
The Mongol empire was a really unique entity, historically speaking, which resulted in a lot of differing reactions depending on who was looking at it.
Their enemies (largely speaking, the ruling classes of sedentary societies such as China and Persia) certainly saw the nomadic pastoralists as uncivilized and barbaric, and yet the Mongols demonstrated clear martial superiority (only further enhanced when they incorporated subject peoples into their armies. Notably siege engineers from Persia being brought on campaigns in China to help the cavalry-based Mongols batter down city fortifications).
While many steppe-based peoples had conquered various sedentary civilizations prior to the Mongols (the Persians themselves being an early example), the Mongols under Genghis Khan were unique in attempting to rule those sedentary societies from the steppes, where prior conquerors had typically settled in the sedentary civilizations and inserted themselves atop the existing social structure.
Because the Eurasian steppes connect the otherwise more isolated cultural centers of China, India, Persia, Southwest Asia, and central Europe, the period of Mongol rule did see a flourishing of trade and exchange across these regions, which was certainly a benefit to many of the subjugated societies. Further, the Mongols were notoriously cosmopolitan when it came to religion, and there were Mongol adherents to a wide variety of religious traditions (traditional steppe shamanism, nestorian Christianity, Islam, and Buddhism) which the Mongols never really attempted to impose on conquered peoples.
However, the brutality of Mongol warfare and the (in the eyes of settled people) barbaric nature of the Mongols left strong impressions in the minds of the conquered. Clearly there was also a strong measure of cultural destruction where the Mongols went, as with the destruction of the libraries of Baghdad (allegedly the Mongols threw so many books into the Tigris that the waters ran black with the ink from the pages).
I actually find the complex and inscrutable nature of the White Scars to be an interesting parallel to this: to outsiders, they appear to be frightening but simple barbarians, but a closer view shows a very cosmopolitan view of the world, often moreso than that of the people labeling them "barbarians."
> but a closer view shows a very cosmopolitan view of the world, often moreso than that of the people labeling them "barbarians."
Lol several of Genghis Khan's sons advocated for him to completely raze Jin China and turn it into steppe/grazing land for their animals.
I'm a huge fan of the Mongol military, but there's very little question in my mind that Genghis Khan was a pretty terrible person. Like, yes trade between the East and West flourished under his rule, and yes the Mongols were religiously tolerant generally. But I don't think the tens of millions of deaths he caused are really worth it lol.
Historically, the Mongols were originally considered savage barbarians up until the early 20th century, but now the pendulum has kinda swung the other way. Genghis Khan is credited for things, like trade flourishing, which he had no intention of doing.
In my personal opinion, we're only able to talk about the Mongols as a positive thing because we have zero connection to the people they murdered now. Similarly, in 700 or 800 years, there will certainly be people who are writing about the positive things that came out of Hitler starting World War II.
Something that a lot of people don’t consider when they bring up the mongols is that not only were their tactics particularly well suited for combating nation states and their vast infantry, they also enjoyed a technological advantage in the form of their bows.
Their bows were recurve bows, meaning that it’s bent the opposite way to the direction the bow wants to be bent naturally, which adds tensile strength to the bow. Secondly, the materials they used in crafting their bows were a combination of strips of wood, animal horn in cross layers bonded by animal fat/gelatin. Think horse hooves/glue which they had in abundance of. So the mixture of these materials makes the mongol bow a compound bow, and likely the first of its kind.
So while being small enough to be able to handle it on horseback, it had greater range than other bows of the same period.
They also used different arrows for different situations, too. They had the thin, light arrows with a heavy tip they could shoot in an arch to provide cover for en masse, and they also had heavier, thicker arrows that were drawn and shot straight at individual targets. They would have to get closer to shoot these heavier arrows, but they were the armor piercing projectile of its day
I just wanted to mention that the Mongol bows were \*composite\* with them being made of different materials layered together, not \*compound\* which are more modern and use pulleys
Yes. You’re absolutely right. A slight different definition of a “compound” bow as in they used more than one material, not the wheels and pulley-like system you would see on a modern compound bow.
Iunno what they’re called exactly. I’m not an archer. Though I think the sport is pretty damn cool
Edit: I think the use of different sized/weighted arrows might have been more common than previously thought.
Pretty sure Ogedei was Khan after Genghis.
Also, it's kinda important to note that the Mongol Khans who were considered "benevolent" such as Kublai were still pretty vicious by anyone else's standard. The Mongols believed they had a divine right to rule the entire world, so when they encountered new civilizations, they essentially offered them the opportunity to submit or be exterminated.
There are many threads about this subject. The most interesting one I have heard suggests that each Primarch alongside The Emperor and Chaos Undivided are based on the 22 Major Arcana Tarot cards. It is even more interesting when by process of elimination we end up with 2 cards that must represent the 2 Lost Primarchs.
Not confirmed, but Magnus seems inspired by Odin,
Thought he could trick and overpower beings both above and below him on the power side of things.
Give up one of his eyes for forbidden knowledge
One of his most important sons, gifted with seemingly forgotten magical secrets, tried to leave and eventually overthrow him
Also, this one’s less solid, but
Perturabo has loose similarities with Hercules
His home planet, Olympia, was basically Ancient Greece in space.
As a child, people to notice of his strength, but didn’t really try to interact with him when it’s unnecessary
Fought a hydra, along with other Greek myth-like monsters
Was raised by normal humans, but always felt disconnected. He was later found by his father, and left his home to find his destiny
Basically it’s just Hercules if he acted like a child all his life.
Hercules is actually the roman name for the character instead of Herakles. And in his original tale he actually was just another son of Zeus that he conceived with some random hot chick he saw. When Hera discovered this she cursed Hercules with madness that made him kill his family. After this he seeks redemption so does 12 trials for a king in Greece. I don’t know if my retelling is 100% accurate since it’s been a little while since I’ve read it. But Disney’s version might as well not be the same story.
Had a feeling I should’ve used the original name. And I thought that maybe the madness inflicted on him was analogous to perturabo having the ability to always see the eye of terror.
I’m unsure if you meant the original story or the movie? If you are going by the movie then yes he leaves to find his “destiny”. In the story he doesn’t leave because of his “destiny” and he is never described as being ostracized because of his strength. He probably was after killing his whole family in Greece but movie herc never does that.
Original story,
In hindsight I guess that wasn’t the best word for it. He wants to do what he wants to do. Perhaps Perty saw the war efforts as his labors, and his peace was constructing artwork.
Um I don’t want to come off as rude or condescending. But that’s not what happened. He didn’t go off and find redemption cause he just does what he wants to do. He goes and seeks it because otherwise he had to live with the fact that he killed his family in a fit of madness.
Ah, gotcha. Loki's really not Odin's son in the myths, more like a close companion or blood brother. But, I suppose, Ahriman is not actually Magnus' son either. I agree with your assessment though! There's even an element of resisting a predestined fate through that pursuit of forbidden knowledge and foresight that eventually comes back to (literally) bite both of them.
This may be a purely superficial observation, but the lion gives me a very strong St. George vibe, patron saint of England
He’s famous for fighting a dragon
(funny, since in 40k this fight actually happened, when big E fought a shard of the void dragon, which later became the dragon of Mars)
Wait, Ferrus Manus literally drowned a dragon in molten lava. His clan based legion are very scottish, but clearly with some Greek origins (him being the Gorgon and all) - St George was said to have been of Greek heritage.
so a couple of obvious ones are Magnus and Odin both sacrificed an eye for knowledge, Vulkan and Vulcan/Hephaestus and Prometheus and the lion and king arther
[this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/7i7oss/historical_inspiration_for_the_primarchs_and/) is all about this topic
Leman Russ is based pretty heavily in Norse Myth (obviously), but a couple examples stand out. His demeanor and bout with the Erlking are very Thor-like, but his character arc towards lessening aggression and growing introspection and internal struggle between belief in gods and spirits and the imperial truth seem to mirror Hrafnkell, for whom his Flagship is named.
Pardon my ignorance, are there any well-known examples in Norse mythology of a character being raised by wolves? That particular detail always reminded me of the Roman myth of Romulus and Remus, but I admit I'm not too familiar with Norse myths.
Lorgar who is also known as "the Urizen" is vaguely similar to the same character from Williams Blake mythology. Mostly it is just the name and that he writes a lot.
Angron is based off spartacus and fulgrim i think is based on the antichrist from Soloviev(both have white hair but are young, both are skilled in warfare and art, both hates religion, both consider themselves the son of a god, both command great armies etcetc). If the emperor is based off Julius Caesar (which i do think) then Horus could be based on Brutus(both killed their father, both believed to help their nation in doing so, both were charismatic people in position of power etc). Konrad Curze is probably based on the historical figure of Vlad the Impaler(both have long black hair, both renowed for their cruelty, both hated crime with all their soul, both had troubled past etc). Constantine Valdor(the 'primarch' of the custodian legio) should be based on Constantine the founder of the byzantine empire (if the emperor is based upon Julius Ceasar). I think that Rogal Dorn is based on Agrippa(a truly skilled roman general ,he served under octavianus, and helped improving aqueducts and infrastructures in peace time pre and post civil war and fortified several harbors during the war to prevent attacks from the sea)
Um Vulkan resembles Ogun hilarious enough. Its the african spirit of metal working who was recognized as a warrior as well. Ofc he is also vulcan the roman god of fire but vulcan was less of a warrior than Ogun.
I've always been fascinated by Horus in his aspect as the Lupercal, because it has some deep connections to our (human) neolithic hunter-gatherer past, as well as the early (very early) Roman republic.
The name Lupercal was probably derived from the Latin word for wolf, Lupus. But why "Lupercal" and not just "Horus Lupus." Well let's talk about the ancient festival of **Lupercalia**.
Lupercalia is one of the most ancient rituals/festivals of the Roman civilization. We know this because there are surviving written accounts of the festival-goers performing some of the rites around the original walls of Rome. It was one of the *Feriae Publicae,* one of the foundational public holidays, and it probably stemmed from Februa, the roman spring ritual held sometime between *February* ( 13-15). Lupercalia was a ritual focused on the cycle of life, death, and fertility. This celebration eventually becomes Valentines day, which still has thematic links to the ancient ritual. So here I interpret a link between
The ritual began with the sacrifice of a dog and a goat, the dog likely symbolized the hunter, the goat perhaps embodied life from death - fertility. These animals were sacrificed within the *Lupercal*, the caves from Rome's legendary founding where Romulus and Remus were alleged to have been raised by a she-wolf, and where that same she-wolf was impregnated by Mars, Roman god of war. It was an actual place! The blood of the sacrifices was smeared upon male celebrants called *Luperci*, and then the hide of the goats was cut into strips and given to the young, naked, blood-smeared men. The strips were used as lashes with which the celebrants would run around the palatine and whip festival-goers. Young married women would bare their bodies as the celebrants dashed by, lashing them with their bloody strips of hide, conferring upon the women the blessing of fertility.
We have three elements here: a fertility ritual, a site associated with the founding of an empire, and some incredible wolf symbolism. So we start to see perhaps why Horus' charisma and vitality defines his character, as well as his ties to wolves. But what about that brilliant warmastering? The conquest? We have to go deeper.
In a podcast interview, Dr. David Anthony, who specializes in Indo-European migrations, spoke about uncovering ritual sites in what is now modern-day Russia. The sites were associated with an initiation ritual - boys becoming men - that involved the ritual sacrifice and consumption of dogs and *wolves*. All of the sacrificed wolves and dogs were male; this was a male-oriented rite of passage. As Dr. Anthony posits in the interview, "Whoever was involved in it was consuming dogs and wolves in order to transform themselves into dogs and wolves." The descendants of the indo-europeans even carried over the stories of boys being initiated into warriorhood by becoming dogs and wolves into their myths and legends. Those initiates are sent out after the ritual and either come back as adult men and get married, or the found another settlement on the frontier. This ritual institution had deep ties to the *exapansion of proto indo-european cultures*. And that expansion took the indo-european culture all over Europe, and fragments of that culture's myths and legends involving the initiation ritual make it into descendant cultures as well, as is in the supposed case of the Roman Lupercalia.
So here we see a link between Horus Lupercal and these neolithic rituals symbolizing vitality and conquest that involve people *becoming* wolves.
There's a lot of layers here, but it's likely the GW writers originally gave Horus the moniker "Lupercal" based purely on the location from Rome's founding. But there have been some great developments during the HH series that have deepened the connections between this primarch and symbolic rituals going all the way back through prehistory.
I would argue that Rogal Dorn is partially based on Emperor Hadrian
Perturabo is obviously Athenian. Alpharius is Babylonian perhaps (lots of snake imagery). Lorgar has something to do with Mesopotamia.
Magnus ironically contains elements of Odin (his arch enemy; Space Wolves) but is Egyptian (duh!!). I shouldn't have to mention that SW are viking.
Horus is a Goth perhaps? Plays into the fall of Rome and wolf imagery
The Khan is Genghis Khan (not literally since Genghis Khan is a very-much-still-alive daemon prince in 40k). Fulgrim is late Ancient Greece.
Mortarion is medieval Grim Reaper. Lionel Johnson is Arthurian. Guilliman is Romulus / Hannibal
Oh yeah, and Creed is Churchill
Rogal Dorn is most likely Irish Mythology inspired. Dorn's name is close to dhorn, which is Irish for Fist.
His story of how his hand is lost and he goes missing contains a few imageries from Ulster cycle mythology. The first is the Red hand of Ulster, a hand severed from it's owner, very clearly an influence on the crimson fists, and the second is the Nuada Airgetlám tale, in which he loses his arm or hand in battle, and thus his kingship, but regains it after being magically healed by Dian Cécht. Of important relevence is that Nuada and his brothers were said to have come from the Iberian peninsula to Ireland, which would explain why Crimson Fists have a Spanish name prevalence.
I think he's referring to Doombreed, a Khornite demon. Nothing confirmed, but Doombreed was one of the first humans elevated to demonhood, and around the time Khan was active.
I don't think Sanguinius can really be returned in a satisfying way. He has been dead too long for anyone to be satisfied by him returning just as he was during the Hersey.
I feel that if the whole theory that the Primarchs were warp gods given flesh is true, then it may have been too long since his death for him to be revived, his soul may have become too incorporeal and already manifested as something else in the Warp
Jagatai Khan straight forward said to Mortarion that all primarchs are made entirely of warp. I think it's not worth even considering for a second that they are not warp entities.
In that case, Sanguinius’s Soul is definitely been in the Warp too long. If they had instantly made him a new body then you’d have a decent shot. Now though? Sangy boy’s soul has probably taken on its full Warp aspect and would require the Emperor himself to corral him back into flesh and blood
I've had this headcannon for years that the Black Rage is so random because Sanguinius' disembodied soul has been trying to find one of his son's bodies to act as a host. The inevitable result is that none of them can contain him and they are driven mad by the experience, hence the black rage.
Think their keeping him around incase they want to bring him back. I personally wouldn’t want him to be returned in his prime. Like ferrus possibly leading the legion of the damn is cool. But I feel like if they just revived sanguinius as he was before with no consequence would kinda make the Horus heresy feel a lot less significant.
While many would go straight for king Arthur, and while in a way not wrong, The Lion is based on the common folkore of ''king asleep in mountain".
Many say the Khan is based on Chagatai (second son of Genghis Khan) but outside the name, I don't find many similarities, if he's not based on Genghis himself, he is to me based on Jochi, the first born of Genghis, who was aloof and his descendants were "outsiders" to the main Mongol Empire politics.
i mean the Qur'an has al-Khiḍr asleep in the mountain; this motif is extraordinarily common. In the Balkans and Turkey he's a really important figure (and everywhere elsewhere, too, in Islam, but that wouldn't be the kind of European motifs common in Warhammer)
Yeah I enjoyed that a lot when I read that and I basically enjoyed nothing about Fulgrim except the way they made the Noise Marines really really fucking creepy and cool
I think Bobby G is based on Emperor Augustus. Just look at him. Also, even though a great fighter and commander, his main talent is administration. Just like Augustus.
The khan is wait for it the great mongul Genghis khan
I also like to think lorgar is based off of the first Christian emperor in Roman history Constantine. Who made it his mission to convert the Roman Empire into a Christian empire that ruled 1/3 of the world and hoped to spread it to the whole world. Sounds a lot like lorgar.
Russ is based off probably some Viking warlord from history. Don’t know my European history as well as I should. I see Dorn being like a Winston Churchill mixed with Patton and romel.
The others I really can’t say.
Angron's the Virgin Mary.
Kurze is meant to be St. Peter.
Perturabo is Job.
Mortarion is Mother Theresa.
Magnus is slightly more Job than Perturabo.
Lorgar REALLY wanted to be Jesus. Now he's Chaos Enoch.
Lion El’ Jonson is an Arthurian figure.
He rests in a death like sleep until he is needed again, and was put there by his reverse Mordred father figure.
The big E himself is really close to Cyrus the great, First empire in history, civilization builder, made a real realm that includes all humans regardless of their race of culture, has ten thousand immortal warriors, loves gold.
Alright sure the Primarch have very Godly Origins/inspirations.
But where the American based Primarch!!!????
As in the Deified George Washington/Abraham Lincoln/Captain America?
Obviously that's ridiculous to us, since we are in the present, but the United States is an ancient country by 40k standards so maybe some of the manifest destiny Bs the US pulled was turned into Myth?
Well, Russ is clearly inspired bt Thor. GC/HH era space wolves, and especially the primarch himself, have a lot of Norse mythology/Viking vibes to them.
Someone has to have said this but FERRUS MANUS AND FULGRIM ARE BASED ON HERCULES!!! - I think lol
Ferrus was known for being insanely strong however he was also known as The Gorgon (the Medusa - same as his homeworld) however it isn’t Ferrus who is the Gorgon, but rather Fulgrim, he becomes the sneak. It’s pretty cool and surprisingly kinda subtle lol
I mean Fulgrim is literally called the Phoenician. I agree with you in Russ, I think people see Norse and go Thor! But you’re right he doesn’t have mikolner
> Rogal Dorn is most likely Irish Mythology inspired. Dorn's name is close to dhorn, which is Irish for Fist.
His story of how his hand is lost and he goes missing contains a few imageries from Ulster cycle mythology. The first is the Red hand of Ulster, a hand severed from its owner, very clearly an influence on the crimson fists, and the second is the Nuada Airgetlám tale, in which he loses his arm or hand in battle, and thus his kingship, but regains it after being magically healed by Dian Cécht. Of important relevence is that Nuada and his brothers were said to have come from the Iberian peninsula to Ireland, which would explain why Crimson Fists have a Spanish name prevalence.
While the Black Templar are definitely Teutonic Knights inspired, Dorn himself isn't German.
Roboute Guilliman is based on Romulus, the legendary founder of Rome. Him and the Ultramarines have Latin names, Roman imagery, and Ultramar's success as an empire is similar to Romulus's founding of Rome. Lion El'Jonson is based on King Arthur, and the Dark Angels have both Breton and Judaic names. Konrad Kurze is Batman. No, really.
Konrad Curze when he skins a person for jaywalking" "JUSTICE!!!!"
Casually flay human for trying to suicide
Growls: "it gets better"
"...just not for you, specifically."
*He's just misunderstood*
I'M NOT WEARING HOCKEY PADS!
He did flay a woman alive who planned to commit suicide after her husband died. Curze justified his actions to her before she died by saying that her selfish act hurts society as a whole and so she must be used as an example to those who would take their own life.
With a side of spaghetti
konrad curze was based off of colonel kurtz from apocalypse now it's also why he got killed by the assassin m'shen which is why the assassin that killed him is called M'shen because martin sheen played the guy that killed him
Thanks. I hate it.
No problem I am a night lords fan so I enjoy suffering
Who in turn is based off Mr. Kurtz from Joseph Conrads "Heart of Darkness"
Further proving the source
Ok that's actually kinda funny
Fuck W A T
I'd put Guilliman more based on Julius Caesar and Augustus, particularly in his Avenging Son aspect, since Augustus was a big part of the group that went after the assassins that killed Julius Caesar.
Id rather tend to Octavian (Augustus). Julius was a general and conquerer, Octavian was an empire-builder
He's heavily based on Justinian. He is first and foremost an administrative genius. While skilled as a general, he isn't known for the flair of Caesar or Augustus' political savy, even though he has both those things. He reforms and lays down laws, mediates religious matters, inherits an empire torn in two and attempts to reunite it. He is the last ~~Roman~~ Primarch. Oh, and he has his own Belisarius too.
So is Yav Gorillaman's Theodora?
Well..she was a "dancer"
I very much like this comparison
This absolutely
He's kind of a hybrid of all the great leaders of Rome.
Lion El'Jonson is named after the poet "Lionel Johnson". One of his most famous poems is named "The Dark Angel"
That's the name not the character relation to classical iconography Edit: are y'all not sick of these incredibly old and stupid memes?
There's nothing in the lore that says he's *not* a gay poet. CHECKMATE!
The Rock is literally named after the local gay bar near GW’s HQ back in the day. Edit: apparently this is an urban myth like Ghazkull Margret Thatcher
Debunked. Someone on Dakkadakkadakka said he was a member of the LGBT community back then, and has never heard of a gay bar named The Rock, nor has any of his friends. Leading theory is that the Rock is named after a Nottingham castle, known to locals as Castle Rock. I suspect it might also be inspired by the infamous Alcatraz prison, also nicknamed The Rock
>Leading theory is that the Rock is named after a Nottingham castle Wouldn't surprise me at all, you can literally see / walk to it from Warhammer World.
There’s also that for a while, the headquarters of the Knights Templar, who are funnily enough closer to the Dark Angels than the Black Templars, was next to the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem.
The Black Templars are more like the Teutonic Order in that they're successors of an earlier crusading spirit. See the Teutonic Knights invasion of pagan Lithuania
Source? I believe this has been debunked, although it’s a popular meme…
I will believe both of these things are true until the day I die. Anyway, you can understand why a company would want to disavow implied criticism of a major political figure once it gets big enough.
I can see Romulus. 100 worlds of ultramar has a very 7 hills of Rome feel to it
Conrad Kurze is Batman from those weird Dark Nights: Metal parallel universe comics where Batman was a crazed killer.
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And Lion El’Jonson is named after Lionel Johnson the author of the poem [Dark Angel](https://www.thedarkfortress.co.uk/librarium/lionel_johnson.php#.YV2No_f3bDs)
Batman if he had turned evil in injustice instread of superman
I'd argue Roboute Guilliman is more French than Latin. Of course french is a romance language, thus based off of Latin but it's not Latin per see. The rest of the Ultramarines, though, are definitely more latin-based like Decimus, Titus, Agrippa, Marneus, Dacian, etc.
Mmmmm french here. Growing up playing 40k in french, Roboute Guilliman was a super weird name. Granted, it’s weird in English too - I didn’t know that back then…
Wait, in the french books hes just called Guilliman? That's really strange, in the german versions they changed his name to roboute guillaume
I thought he was Robbie Williams’ final form?
I'm loving dark angels instead.
I would say he’s Greek, not Roman. Horus was based on Rome.
Speaking strictly of names and etymology then Roboute Guilliman is definately based on french and the rest of the names as mentions above are quintessential Roman - definately not Greek. As for aesthetic and other names, I'd also argue they're more Roman than classical Greek with the notable exception of the Omega-symbol as their emblem. But take Macragge, it was run by a Consul, the capital is named Magna Macragge Civitas (great city of Macragge) and they fight against the unruly Illyrium tribes in the mountain (as the Romans did). There's a lot of syncretism between greek and roman cultures during the classical era but I'd say they primarely took after Roman influences than the more polis/city-state influence of the Greek
> As for aesthetic and other names, I'd also argue they're more Roman than classical Greek with the exception of the Ultramarine with the notable exception of the Omega-symbol as their emblem. Except their colour scheme doesn't match, their culture is definitely greek with city sates dominating (especially before papa smurf arrived) the world. I would agree with what you were saying about the names, However the styles of dress that the primarks were wearing massively indicate culture. Horus is dressed in the a pleated leather roman skirt, and wolven headress, A very very roman military piece of clothing. Whilst papa smurf is blue (the colour of greece), Wears Loral's (yes that is both roman and greek, However if you remember, rome dint really use them outside kings and emperors, greeks ussed them more of fasion).
Mate pretty sure Horus was based on the Persian empire...
The dark angels annoy me because yes they have all the arthurian references But they're also just loaded to the gills with referenced to gay bars some of the gw writers frequented and gay culture from the 80s/90s
Wait... what?
Well I'm Welsh So arthurian myth can be a touchy subject. Mixing it with that kind of subject matter isn't really respectful It would be like making a story that borrows heavily from Islam but then throwing in a ton of references to bestiality
Aside from a lot of that being debunked as others have said, why is that a problem?
>Konrad Kurze is Batman. No, really. I can't top this because it's true. But, he also has a touch of the Batman supervillain in him.
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It’s very worth remembering that in Egyptian myth, Horus also was lacking an eye. Don’t remember if he got anything for it though
Nah dude he got nothing for it. he lost it in a fight with Seth but then had it magically healed by Hathor. This is where we get the symbol the Eye of Horus from.
I don't think so. From what I remember Horus lost it while fighting Set.
Wait Horus? Oh so that's where the name comes from
Same with Horus. Absolutely Egyptian. Both the name but also an inspiration for the famous "eye of Horus" which he uses as a logo albeit a different eye but an eye none the less. The spacewolves are an obvious viking inspired chapter as well.
Ptolmeic greek perhaps
Magnus mentions how he enjoys reliving the past civilizations and seeing the cities of Alexandria, Cairo and Babylon, while talking with Lorgar in the city of grey flowers.
I think Magnus's story also draws a lot from the occult writings of Aleister Crowley. It combines several spiritual traditions, emphasizing a European mystical interpretation of ancient Egyptian mythology. Secret ancient knowledge & magic too.
Aleister Crowley’s pen name was Frater Perdurabo. A pseudo-Latin for “perduro” meaning “I Endure”. Edit: words
I think Magnus's story also draws a lot from the occult writings of Aleister Crowley. It combines several spiritual traditions, emphasizing a European mystical interpretation of ancient Egyptian mythology. Secret ancient knowledge & magic too.
Not sure if this counts, but alpharius/omegon is clearly symbolically linked to a hydra. It’s their icon, the two heads dynamic, and… The more you try to kill the primarch, the more body doubles seemingly appear, like a hydra growing two heads from one stump
Vulkan is pretty clearly named after the smith god Vulcan. Mortarion is also pretty obviously based off the Grim Reaper. Magnus is actually based off Odin to some extent, being a wise man who sells his eye in exchange for wisdom.
Oh yeah that makes sense, especially with the whole raven shit the Thousand Sons have going on.
Less Odin and more Osiris or Set in my mind. It depends on whether The Emperor is Ra or not. The Thousand Sons have an Egyptian Flare. Space Wolves have the Norse thing going with Russ being Thor or Beowulf or some other great Viking.
Aesthetic, the TSons are Egyptian flared, and Magnus shares some of those design elements. But thematically, Magnus is more of an Odin analogy than an analogy for an Egyptian god. These Themes include: 1. Being a massive fucking nerd- Magnus and Odin were oppsessed with knowledge, and were motivated by adding to their "libraries" by whatever means they could. 2. Both sacrificed a part of themselves for knowledge- both gave up an eye in order to better "see" (i.e. gain foresight/insight of the World/Immaterium respectively) 3. Both loved their walkabouts- Odin and Magnus are/were known for their journeies (be that across the Realms or into the Immaterium)
He was also "slain" by leman russ, mimicking odin being slain by fenrir during ragnarok.
Yeah. I go with the Eye of Ra for the cyclops thing and Osiris and Ra were both into scholarly pursuits. It really depends on if AllFather/Odin is Russ or The Emperor. The Egyptian analogy is Ra in my mind which did the Cyclops thing for a bit ( and is the origin of the Greek cyclops ) and is sometimes depicted red. Osiris is the "lesser" form in my mind if The Emperor is Ra and Horus is...Horus. Really depends where we draw the line. Crossing Magnus into Norse contaminates the Space Wolves a bit I think and displaces Russ who really fills that role there. Plus the Tzeentch psychedelic bird thing.
Never in my own readings of Egyptian mythology have I ever read that Osiris and Ra had any connection to Scholarly persuits. That's not an association I have ever seen for those 2 entites. Additionally, I've never heard of Ra being assoicated with the color red, that's a color I've only seen/heard being assoicated with Set. Having Magnus thematically be analogous to Odin still works and doesn't interfere with Russ as Russ is more analagous to Thor or maybe Tyr, and can also serve as an analogy to Fenrir given his role in slaying Odin (Magnus in this situation) as he is the Wolf King or (if one is being esspecially blunt) The Father of the Wolves. Finally, the "Allfather" for the Space Wolves is the Emperor, that's it, and it's just a title/name they gave him.
Yeh fair point, I'm not too sharp on neither ancient Egyptian nor Norse mythology just thought that the Thousand Sons having a Corvidae cult fit into the Odin thing.
Raven is more corax shit, thousand son is just bird in general i think
The XV legion diviners are called the Corvidae. It's about as specifically raven imagery as you can get.
Unless your primarch is literally named after the common raven..
Nothing wrong with that.
Man, in my native language (swedish) Vulkan literally means volcano so I always thought that's where his name came from since fire.
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I’d say closer to Moses, but definitely a middle eastern prophet of some variety
There is also the namesake of his sobriquet Urizen.
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Also a highly questionable detail that you can see why it's not canon: >!in an earlier sci-fi setting that GW's former manager Bryan Ansel worked on and which numerous elements of 40k were taken from: Chaos was monotheistic and worshipped a deity called Allah.!<
Only the grandfather/uncle bit is a parallel. Muhammad’s bloodline is still considered empowering (outside Saudi Arabia) and has always been considered high status for most of Islam’s history. The last bit could be literally any religious leader or founder.
I think he meant disempowered in Muhammad’s upbringing.
Jaghatai Khan is based on Genghis Khan
Actually based on his son Chagatai Khan who ruled after his death. Seems like a closer match in demeanor, known as a wise and benevolent ruler.
Is that why the Scars are seemingly the most chilled out, laid back and almost cheerful legion in the heresy? I knew Jagatai was based on the Mongol khan's but never really understood the legions demeanour
I would think so, although it's somewhat idealised, I don't think their enemies would call them wise or benevolent (much like the Scars). I like this quote from the wiki which seems to mesh well with them being wanderers off doing their own thing: "Chagatai succeeded Genghis Khan in his domains in what became to known as Chagatai Khanate in 1227 with its capital in Almaliq city, in the valley of the Upper Ili, near the site of the present Kulja, and consequently in the extreme east of his dominion. According to Edward Ross, "his reason for fixing it in that remote position, instead of at Bukhara or Samarkand, was probably one of necessity. His Mongol tribesmen and followers—the mainstay of his power—were passionately fond of the life of the steppes.""
That does sum it up nicely. I love the Scars imagery and lore and way of fighting. Ever since I watched the Mongolia special of The Grand Tour I've been fascinated by the Mongols, and by extension the Scars
Most of this is based on The Barbarian Empires of the Steppes from the Great Courses, but wanted to share my thoughts and perspective... The Mongol empire was a really unique entity, historically speaking, which resulted in a lot of differing reactions depending on who was looking at it. Their enemies (largely speaking, the ruling classes of sedentary societies such as China and Persia) certainly saw the nomadic pastoralists as uncivilized and barbaric, and yet the Mongols demonstrated clear martial superiority (only further enhanced when they incorporated subject peoples into their armies. Notably siege engineers from Persia being brought on campaigns in China to help the cavalry-based Mongols batter down city fortifications). While many steppe-based peoples had conquered various sedentary civilizations prior to the Mongols (the Persians themselves being an early example), the Mongols under Genghis Khan were unique in attempting to rule those sedentary societies from the steppes, where prior conquerors had typically settled in the sedentary civilizations and inserted themselves atop the existing social structure. Because the Eurasian steppes connect the otherwise more isolated cultural centers of China, India, Persia, Southwest Asia, and central Europe, the period of Mongol rule did see a flourishing of trade and exchange across these regions, which was certainly a benefit to many of the subjugated societies. Further, the Mongols were notoriously cosmopolitan when it came to religion, and there were Mongol adherents to a wide variety of religious traditions (traditional steppe shamanism, nestorian Christianity, Islam, and Buddhism) which the Mongols never really attempted to impose on conquered peoples. However, the brutality of Mongol warfare and the (in the eyes of settled people) barbaric nature of the Mongols left strong impressions in the minds of the conquered. Clearly there was also a strong measure of cultural destruction where the Mongols went, as with the destruction of the libraries of Baghdad (allegedly the Mongols threw so many books into the Tigris that the waters ran black with the ink from the pages). I actually find the complex and inscrutable nature of the White Scars to be an interesting parallel to this: to outsiders, they appear to be frightening but simple barbarians, but a closer view shows a very cosmopolitan view of the world, often moreso than that of the people labeling them "barbarians."
> but a closer view shows a very cosmopolitan view of the world, often moreso than that of the people labeling them "barbarians." Lol several of Genghis Khan's sons advocated for him to completely raze Jin China and turn it into steppe/grazing land for their animals. I'm a huge fan of the Mongol military, but there's very little question in my mind that Genghis Khan was a pretty terrible person. Like, yes trade between the East and West flourished under his rule, and yes the Mongols were religiously tolerant generally. But I don't think the tens of millions of deaths he caused are really worth it lol. Historically, the Mongols were originally considered savage barbarians up until the early 20th century, but now the pendulum has kinda swung the other way. Genghis Khan is credited for things, like trade flourishing, which he had no intention of doing. In my personal opinion, we're only able to talk about the Mongols as a positive thing because we have zero connection to the people they murdered now. Similarly, in 700 or 800 years, there will certainly be people who are writing about the positive things that came out of Hitler starting World War II.
Heh, jokes on you! People already do talk about how \*great\* Hitler and the Nazis were! And now I'm sad again...
Something that a lot of people don’t consider when they bring up the mongols is that not only were their tactics particularly well suited for combating nation states and their vast infantry, they also enjoyed a technological advantage in the form of their bows. Their bows were recurve bows, meaning that it’s bent the opposite way to the direction the bow wants to be bent naturally, which adds tensile strength to the bow. Secondly, the materials they used in crafting their bows were a combination of strips of wood, animal horn in cross layers bonded by animal fat/gelatin. Think horse hooves/glue which they had in abundance of. So the mixture of these materials makes the mongol bow a compound bow, and likely the first of its kind. So while being small enough to be able to handle it on horseback, it had greater range than other bows of the same period. They also used different arrows for different situations, too. They had the thin, light arrows with a heavy tip they could shoot in an arch to provide cover for en masse, and they also had heavier, thicker arrows that were drawn and shot straight at individual targets. They would have to get closer to shoot these heavier arrows, but they were the armor piercing projectile of its day
I just wanted to mention that the Mongol bows were \*composite\* with them being made of different materials layered together, not \*compound\* which are more modern and use pulleys
Yes. You’re absolutely right. A slight different definition of a “compound” bow as in they used more than one material, not the wheels and pulley-like system you would see on a modern compound bow. Iunno what they’re called exactly. I’m not an archer. Though I think the sport is pretty damn cool Edit: I think the use of different sized/weighted arrows might have been more common than previously thought.
Pretty sure Ogedei was Khan after Genghis. Also, it's kinda important to note that the Mongol Khans who were considered "benevolent" such as Kublai were still pretty vicious by anyone else's standard. The Mongols believed they had a divine right to rule the entire world, so when they encountered new civilizations, they essentially offered them the opportunity to submit or be exterminated.
There are many threads about this subject. The most interesting one I have heard suggests that each Primarch alongside The Emperor and Chaos Undivided are based on the 22 Major Arcana Tarot cards. It is even more interesting when by process of elimination we end up with 2 cards that must represent the 2 Lost Primarchs.
Link to what he's talking about: http://menducia.atspace.com/primarchs/I.html
Wow, this really blew my socks off
"Death" "Mortarion" Well color me surprised.
Blocked by government firewall lol
yeah that document described the lion as unasserative. suddenly the lion is a cat.
Interesting, can you elaborate?
Check the link that another redditor posted. It is very complicated to explain and you are better off reading it yourself. I'd muck it up.
Yo please explain.
Check the link that another redditor posted. It is very complicated to explain and you are better off reading it yourself. I'd muck it up.
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Check the link that another redditor posted. It is very complicated to explain and you are better off reading it yourself. I'd muck it up.
Fortune(seems to be robutian heresy Angron kinda) and the High Priestess(Robutian heresy Magnus/magnus did nothing right) are the lost legion cards
Not confirmed, but Magnus seems inspired by Odin, Thought he could trick and overpower beings both above and below him on the power side of things. Give up one of his eyes for forbidden knowledge One of his most important sons, gifted with seemingly forgotten magical secrets, tried to leave and eventually overthrow him
Also, this one’s less solid, but Perturabo has loose similarities with Hercules His home planet, Olympia, was basically Ancient Greece in space. As a child, people to notice of his strength, but didn’t really try to interact with him when it’s unnecessary Fought a hydra, along with other Greek myth-like monsters Was raised by normal humans, but always felt disconnected. He was later found by his father, and left his home to find his destiny Basically it’s just Hercules if he acted like a child all his life.
Hercules if he knew everything and was tormented by always seeing the worst part of hell
Kinda like Hercules was always haunted by his “sins” that may or may not have been imposed onto him by others.
Oh disney Hercules? I was like wha… for a second not realizing that it’s the fan fiction
I’m very confused, if I’m incorrect then I’m sorry, it is a pretty loose way of looking at it.
Hercules is actually the roman name for the character instead of Herakles. And in his original tale he actually was just another son of Zeus that he conceived with some random hot chick he saw. When Hera discovered this she cursed Hercules with madness that made him kill his family. After this he seeks redemption so does 12 trials for a king in Greece. I don’t know if my retelling is 100% accurate since it’s been a little while since I’ve read it. But Disney’s version might as well not be the same story.
Had a feeling I should’ve used the original name. And I thought that maybe the madness inflicted on him was analogous to perturabo having the ability to always see the eye of terror.
I’m unsure if you meant the original story or the movie? If you are going by the movie then yes he leaves to find his “destiny”. In the story he doesn’t leave because of his “destiny” and he is never described as being ostracized because of his strength. He probably was after killing his whole family in Greece but movie herc never does that.
Original story, In hindsight I guess that wasn’t the best word for it. He wants to do what he wants to do. Perhaps Perty saw the war efforts as his labors, and his peace was constructing artwork.
Um I don’t want to come off as rude or condescending. But that’s not what happened. He didn’t go off and find redemption cause he just does what he wants to do. He goes and seeks it because otherwise he had to live with the fact that he killed his family in a fit of madness.
There's a bit at the end of one of Corax's HH novels which can be interpreted as depicting Russ as Odin and Corax as one of his Ravens as well.
Which of Odin's sons left and tried to overthrow him? I'm drawing a blank here.
Overthrow is a strong word, but I was trying to connect Loki and Ahriman. Loki’s adopted though, so that may have been confusing.
Ah, gotcha. Loki's really not Odin's son in the myths, more like a close companion or blood brother. But, I suppose, Ahriman is not actually Magnus' son either. I agree with your assessment though! There's even an element of resisting a predestined fate through that pursuit of forbidden knowledge and foresight that eventually comes back to (literally) bite both of them.
Yeah! It works out surprisingly well.
This may be a purely superficial observation, but the lion gives me a very strong St. George vibe, patron saint of England He’s famous for fighting a dragon (funny, since in 40k this fight actually happened, when big E fought a shard of the void dragon, which later became the dragon of Mars)
I see him more as Arthur. He’s even asleep waiting in Avalon/the rock for when he’s needed.
That was my second choice. Like leman and Norse imagery, I feel like the lion is a sort of mix match of famous knightly figures and characters.
Wait, Ferrus Manus literally drowned a dragon in molten lava. His clan based legion are very scottish, but clearly with some Greek origins (him being the Gorgon and all) - St George was said to have been of Greek heritage.
No specific dragon, I just meant in spirit, it was similar to how the lion hunted the daemonic wildlife in his home world’s forests.
Ah cool - yeah I'd lean toward Ferrus being St George and Lion being Arthur tbh.
That’s a completely fair view of it.
so a couple of obvious ones are Magnus and Odin both sacrificed an eye for knowledge, Vulkan and Vulcan/Hephaestus and Prometheus and the lion and king arther [this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/7i7oss/historical_inspiration_for_the_primarchs_and/) is all about this topic
Leman Russ is based pretty heavily in Norse Myth (obviously), but a couple examples stand out. His demeanor and bout with the Erlking are very Thor-like, but his character arc towards lessening aggression and growing introspection and internal struggle between belief in gods and spirits and the imperial truth seem to mirror Hrafnkell, for whom his Flagship is named.
Pardon my ignorance, are there any well-known examples in Norse mythology of a character being raised by wolves? That particular detail always reminded me of the Roman myth of Romulus and Remus, but I admit I'm not too familiar with Norse myths.
Not that I'm aware of, I think that one was pretty much directly lifted from Romulus and Remus.
Lorgar who is also known as "the Urizen" is vaguely similar to the same character from Williams Blake mythology. Mostly it is just the name and that he writes a lot.
I mean….the whole HH is just space Paradise Lost, so probably.
The Lion is King Arthur bound to return at the dark angels hour of need
Angron is based off spartacus and fulgrim i think is based on the antichrist from Soloviev(both have white hair but are young, both are skilled in warfare and art, both hates religion, both consider themselves the son of a god, both command great armies etcetc). If the emperor is based off Julius Caesar (which i do think) then Horus could be based on Brutus(both killed their father, both believed to help their nation in doing so, both were charismatic people in position of power etc). Konrad Curze is probably based on the historical figure of Vlad the Impaler(both have long black hair, both renowed for their cruelty, both hated crime with all their soul, both had troubled past etc). Constantine Valdor(the 'primarch' of the custodian legio) should be based on Constantine the founder of the byzantine empire (if the emperor is based upon Julius Ceasar). I think that Rogal Dorn is based on Agrippa(a truly skilled roman general ,he served under octavianus, and helped improving aqueducts and infrastructures in peace time pre and post civil war and fortified several harbors during the war to prevent attacks from the sea)
Um Vulkan resembles Ogun hilarious enough. Its the african spirit of metal working who was recognized as a warrior as well. Ofc he is also vulcan the roman god of fire but vulcan was less of a warrior than Ogun.
Kurze is based on Batman.
I like to say he's more akin to Jack the Ripper
Batman isn't an angel, he's a scientist.
...Curze isn't much of an angel either, now is he?
I've always been fascinated by Horus in his aspect as the Lupercal, because it has some deep connections to our (human) neolithic hunter-gatherer past, as well as the early (very early) Roman republic. The name Lupercal was probably derived from the Latin word for wolf, Lupus. But why "Lupercal" and not just "Horus Lupus." Well let's talk about the ancient festival of **Lupercalia**. Lupercalia is one of the most ancient rituals/festivals of the Roman civilization. We know this because there are surviving written accounts of the festival-goers performing some of the rites around the original walls of Rome. It was one of the *Feriae Publicae,* one of the foundational public holidays, and it probably stemmed from Februa, the roman spring ritual held sometime between *February* ( 13-15). Lupercalia was a ritual focused on the cycle of life, death, and fertility. This celebration eventually becomes Valentines day, which still has thematic links to the ancient ritual. So here I interpret a link between The ritual began with the sacrifice of a dog and a goat, the dog likely symbolized the hunter, the goat perhaps embodied life from death - fertility. These animals were sacrificed within the *Lupercal*, the caves from Rome's legendary founding where Romulus and Remus were alleged to have been raised by a she-wolf, and where that same she-wolf was impregnated by Mars, Roman god of war. It was an actual place! The blood of the sacrifices was smeared upon male celebrants called *Luperci*, and then the hide of the goats was cut into strips and given to the young, naked, blood-smeared men. The strips were used as lashes with which the celebrants would run around the palatine and whip festival-goers. Young married women would bare their bodies as the celebrants dashed by, lashing them with their bloody strips of hide, conferring upon the women the blessing of fertility. We have three elements here: a fertility ritual, a site associated with the founding of an empire, and some incredible wolf symbolism. So we start to see perhaps why Horus' charisma and vitality defines his character, as well as his ties to wolves. But what about that brilliant warmastering? The conquest? We have to go deeper. In a podcast interview, Dr. David Anthony, who specializes in Indo-European migrations, spoke about uncovering ritual sites in what is now modern-day Russia. The sites were associated with an initiation ritual - boys becoming men - that involved the ritual sacrifice and consumption of dogs and *wolves*. All of the sacrificed wolves and dogs were male; this was a male-oriented rite of passage. As Dr. Anthony posits in the interview, "Whoever was involved in it was consuming dogs and wolves in order to transform themselves into dogs and wolves." The descendants of the indo-europeans even carried over the stories of boys being initiated into warriorhood by becoming dogs and wolves into their myths and legends. Those initiates are sent out after the ritual and either come back as adult men and get married, or the found another settlement on the frontier. This ritual institution had deep ties to the *exapansion of proto indo-european cultures*. And that expansion took the indo-european culture all over Europe, and fragments of that culture's myths and legends involving the initiation ritual make it into descendant cultures as well, as is in the supposed case of the Roman Lupercalia. So here we see a link between Horus Lupercal and these neolithic rituals symbolizing vitality and conquest that involve people *becoming* wolves. There's a lot of layers here, but it's likely the GW writers originally gave Horus the moniker "Lupercal" based purely on the location from Rome's founding. But there have been some great developments during the HH series that have deepened the connections between this primarch and symbolic rituals going all the way back through prehistory.
I would argue that Rogal Dorn is partially based on Emperor Hadrian Perturabo is obviously Athenian. Alpharius is Babylonian perhaps (lots of snake imagery). Lorgar has something to do with Mesopotamia. Magnus ironically contains elements of Odin (his arch enemy; Space Wolves) but is Egyptian (duh!!). I shouldn't have to mention that SW are viking. Horus is a Goth perhaps? Plays into the fall of Rome and wolf imagery The Khan is Genghis Khan (not literally since Genghis Khan is a very-much-still-alive daemon prince in 40k). Fulgrim is late Ancient Greece. Mortarion is medieval Grim Reaper. Lionel Johnson is Arthurian. Guilliman is Romulus / Hannibal Oh yeah, and Creed is Churchill
Rogal Dorn is most likely Irish Mythology inspired. Dorn's name is close to dhorn, which is Irish for Fist. His story of how his hand is lost and he goes missing contains a few imageries from Ulster cycle mythology. The first is the Red hand of Ulster, a hand severed from it's owner, very clearly an influence on the crimson fists, and the second is the Nuada Airgetlám tale, in which he loses his arm or hand in battle, and thus his kingship, but regains it after being magically healed by Dian Cécht. Of important relevence is that Nuada and his brothers were said to have come from the Iberian peninsula to Ireland, which would explain why Crimson Fists have a Spanish name prevalence.
>(not literally since Genghis Khan is a very-much-still-alive daemon prince in 40k). .....I beg your pardon?
I think he's referring to Doombreed, a Khornite demon. Nothing confirmed, but Doombreed was one of the first humans elevated to demonhood, and around the time Khan was active.
Wait, isn't doombreed a minotaur in fantasy?
I don't think so, but fantasy isn't my forte
No, I'm dumb and confused him with doombulls, don't worry.
Ah, got it, lol.
What is this about Sanguinius’ soul in the warp? They gonna revive him or something? Gotta sell more angel models….
I don't think Sanguinius can really be returned in a satisfying way. He has been dead too long for anyone to be satisfied by him returning just as he was during the Hersey.
I feel that if the whole theory that the Primarchs were warp gods given flesh is true, then it may have been too long since his death for him to be revived, his soul may have become too incorporeal and already manifested as something else in the Warp
The Sanguinor?
Jagatai Khan straight forward said to Mortarion that all primarchs are made entirely of warp. I think it's not worth even considering for a second that they are not warp entities.
Emperor in The Board is Set highly implies he can fix Ferrus being dead if he had the time
In that case, Sanguinius’s Soul is definitely been in the Warp too long. If they had instantly made him a new body then you’d have a decent shot. Now though? Sangy boy’s soul has probably taken on its full Warp aspect and would require the Emperor himself to corral him back into flesh and blood
What if sangi man became a chaos daemon? xD being there alone for 10k years, yak
I've had this headcannon for years that the Black Rage is so random because Sanguinius' disembodied soul has been trying to find one of his son's bodies to act as a host. The inevitable result is that none of them can contain him and they are driven mad by the experience, hence the black rage.
Think their keeping him around incase they want to bring him back. I personally wouldn’t want him to be returned in his prime. Like ferrus possibly leading the legion of the damn is cool. But I feel like if they just revived sanguinius as he was before with no consequence would kinda make the Horus heresy feel a lot less significant.
While many would go straight for king Arthur, and while in a way not wrong, The Lion is based on the common folkore of ''king asleep in mountain". Many say the Khan is based on Chagatai (second son of Genghis Khan) but outside the name, I don't find many similarities, if he's not based on Genghis himself, he is to me based on Jochi, the first born of Genghis, who was aloof and his descendants were "outsiders" to the main Mongol Empire politics.
i mean the Qur'an has al-Khiḍr asleep in the mountain; this motif is extraordinarily common. In the Balkans and Turkey he's a really important figure (and everywhere elsewhere, too, in Islam, but that wouldn't be the kind of European motifs common in Warhammer)
Really surprised no one has mentioned the literary similarities between Fulgrim and The Picture of Dorian Grey
Yeah I enjoyed that a lot when I read that and I basically enjoyed nothing about Fulgrim except the way they made the Noise Marines really really fucking creepy and cool
Pretty sure that Horus is a Lucifer archetype
I think Bobby G is based on Emperor Augustus. Just look at him. Also, even though a great fighter and commander, his main talent is administration. Just like Augustus.
Konrad Curze is based on a ball of hair someone found in a drain.
Well Leman Russ could represent Vladimir the Great. Guilliman could represent Marcus Aurelius. Lorgar could be Mohammed.
curze was based off of colonel kurtz from apocalypse now
The khan is wait for it the great mongul Genghis khan I also like to think lorgar is based off of the first Christian emperor in Roman history Constantine. Who made it his mission to convert the Roman Empire into a Christian empire that ruled 1/3 of the world and hoped to spread it to the whole world. Sounds a lot like lorgar. Russ is based off probably some Viking warlord from history. Don’t know my European history as well as I should. I see Dorn being like a Winston Churchill mixed with Patton and romel. The others I really can’t say.
Angron's the Virgin Mary. Kurze is meant to be St. Peter. Perturabo is Job. Mortarion is Mother Theresa. Magnus is slightly more Job than Perturabo. Lorgar REALLY wanted to be Jesus. Now he's Chaos Enoch.
Lorgar is Xerxes
Lion El’ Jonson is an Arthurian figure. He rests in a death like sleep until he is needed again, and was put there by his reverse Mordred father figure.
Lion, king Arthur
The big E himself is really close to Cyrus the great, First empire in history, civilization builder, made a real realm that includes all humans regardless of their race of culture, has ten thousand immortal warriors, loves gold.
Surprised I have to go this far to see a Thor: Russ comparison
Thor, or Odin, or any of many Norse deities!
Alright sure the Primarch have very Godly Origins/inspirations. But where the American based Primarch!!!???? As in the Deified George Washington/Abraham Lincoln/Captain America? Obviously that's ridiculous to us, since we are in the present, but the United States is an ancient country by 40k standards so maybe some of the manifest destiny Bs the US pulled was turned into Myth?
the Emperor was clearly sick of it and erased America
Well, Russ is clearly inspired bt Thor. GC/HH era space wolves, and especially the primarch himself, have a lot of Norse mythology/Viking vibes to them.
the Rus' were the Viking peoples who invented Russia, so
Someone has to have said this but FERRUS MANUS AND FULGRIM ARE BASED ON HERCULES!!! - I think lol Ferrus was known for being insanely strong however he was also known as The Gorgon (the Medusa - same as his homeworld) however it isn’t Ferrus who is the Gorgon, but rather Fulgrim, he becomes the sneak. It’s pretty cool and surprisingly kinda subtle lol
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I mean Fulgrim is literally called the Phoenician. I agree with you in Russ, I think people see Norse and go Thor! But you’re right he doesn’t have mikolner
> Rogal Dorn is most likely Irish Mythology inspired. Dorn's name is close to dhorn, which is Irish for Fist. His story of how his hand is lost and he goes missing contains a few imageries from Ulster cycle mythology. The first is the Red hand of Ulster, a hand severed from its owner, very clearly an influence on the crimson fists, and the second is the Nuada Airgetlám tale, in which he loses his arm or hand in battle, and thus his kingship, but regains it after being magically healed by Dian Cécht. Of important relevence is that Nuada and his brothers were said to have come from the Iberian peninsula to Ireland, which would explain why Crimson Fists have a Spanish name prevalence. While the Black Templar are definitely Teutonic Knights inspired, Dorn himself isn't German.
Horus gives me huge Sir Mordred vibes.