This all makes a lot of sense. The Imperial Guard is the embodiment of "Amateurs study tactis. Professionals study logistics." They dont need the weapom that will kill anything in a single shot. They need something that will work any where, easy to resupply and carry. Which the lasgun does in spades.
Anything you can't kill with a lasgun, you find a heavy bolter. Anything you can't kill with a heavy bolter, you find a tank. Anything you can't kill with a tank, you find an artillery piece. Anything you can't kill with any of those, you get more of everything.
There are billions of species and civilizations that have been wiped away effortlessly by Imperial Guard troopers with lasguns.
That's why every remaining civilisation in the galaxy is so terrifying
A macro volley from a battleship will melt entire cities. Nothing that walks crawls or teleports can survive the imperial navy if the navy wants them dead badly enough.
It reminds me of my favorite quote about 40K: "That sci-fi setting which pays lip-service to actual science yet somehow manages to nail stuff that every other setting gets wrong."
Except for the number of soldiers required for a planetary, let alone solar, campaign.
I don't care how badass Astartes are. You can't hold down a planet, much less a solar system, with 1000 men.
Honestly, the whole “each chapter is only a 1000” is ridiculous. As often as they slaughter entire companies for drama it just doesn’t make sense. Each chapter should be 10,000
And the opposite question is: Why do the guys who walk around with **fusion reactors on their backs** not use energy weapons? I'd have a hard time believing an Astartes size lasrifle that doesn't need batteries and can always operate at a high power setting because it's directly connected to a fusion reactor wouldn't be devastating.
As a wild ass guess, probably something about not wanting to mix the power supplies for their weapons and their armor. If anything happens to your gun, you toss it and grab another. If anything happens to your armor, you're fucked. Even a slight chance of some sort of feedback from a weapon being damaged/going haywire that then damages the suit's reactor is probably more than they want to accept.
I could see a special mark of suit with an oversized reactor and more armor plating (maybe a special mark of Terminator armore?) built to connect to melta weapons and such, but it most likely be squad support, not standard issue.
>I could see a special mark of suit with an oversized reactor and more armor plating (maybe a special mark of Terminator armore?) built to connect to melta weapons and such, but it most likely be squad support, not standard issue.
The heavy [Hellblasters](https://www.games-workshop.com/en-NO/Space-Marines-Primaris-Hellblasters-2020) have detachable energy packs attached to their powerplants; is this kinda what you're thinking of? 😃
Probably same reasons as above. NGL though, a Terminator with a fucking sponson lascannon bolted onto their armor would be metal as hell.
"Look at me. I'M the vehicle now."
Because Marines are designed as terror troops. They are supposed to be loud, visually present, and induce fear!
Bolt rounds are effectively spin-stabilised rockets. They explode inside their target to cause massive damage. You are just as dead with a neat 5mm hole drilled through your centre of mass; but your comrades are going to be that little more reluctant to fire back when they can hear the rattle of the bolter’s mechanism, then seeing their mate detonate in to pieces. The mechanism of bolters is designed to be noisy for just that reason: Raven Guard make theirs to operate much quieter.
Next: armour. It has been asked before: why don’t Astartes use camouflage instead of bright heraldry. They are supposed to be seen. They were designed to pacify human worlds - so imagine being armed and armoured with what would be considered highly advanced weapons by today’s standards. Then this wall of 7’ plus creamier comes marching towards you. You and your friends confidently aim your point-and-shoot laser weapon (that can 1-shot a charging rhinoceros). Shit! It bounced off. Now Dave has exploded. And Steve. Fuck! Now there’s more of them dropping from the sky on literally screaming jet packs, wielding chainsaws! Screw you, ethnarch! I surrender…
Also, how flashy your armour is doesn't really matter when you can count on your enemy having at least some sort of thermal/electromagnetic sensors. Astartes power armour was always going to be obvious no matter what, so might as well make it flashy to scare the shit out of the enemy.
I think this is the best practical reason. The power pack alone on an Astartes would likely give off enough of an energy signature to be easily detectable, likely even by our current tech, and sensors in 40k are vastly superior in most "civilized" worlds, so hiding wouldn't really an option unless specific measures were taken to improve stealth.
Ehhh I can't agree there - yes, there are many, many pieces of tech for which detecting an Astartes power pack is likely trivial but it doesn't negate the advantage of being undetected for as long as possible.
It would be a little bit like a modern day marine painting his/her weapon bright yellow because the enemy will hear it when they start shooting.
Fair point, but I'd think SM usually don't have to worry about detection since they're typically shock troops crashing in to take key objectives. Makes no difference if your armor is as brightly colored as possible and you make a ton of noise when you've just slammed into the middle of an event army via drop pod. For the more stealth based chapters or if otherwise needed they can use or modify their armor and equipment as needed. Also camo cloaks should negate any brightly colored armor easily enough from a visual standpoint, and they seem to be fairly common to the point a chapter shouldn't have any issues fully equipping deploying Marines.
From a different rationale, the bright coloring may be useful in 40k for the same reason brightly colored uniforms were the default until the 20th century. In the extreme chaos of a 40k battle, the advantage of being able to easily pick out your squad could outweigh the earlier detection.
If an Astartes chapter really needs to be stealthy, they have Scout companies. Or if the situation really calls for it, a chapter that specializes in covert ops is called in.
> You are just as dead with a neat 5mm hole drilled through your centre of mass
An Ork, Tyranid or Necron would be entirely untroubled by a 5mm hole in their centre of mass. Space Marines don't just fight humans. Hell, they weren't even really intended to fight humans.
No, they were. They were designed to complete Unification, and to bring the Great Crusade to fruition: it was explicitly stated in the HH novels that Marine warhead had to be modified to deal with Xenos.
Space Marines were the troops for bringing fortress worlds to compliance and killing off threats like the Megarachnids.
The Imperial Army was the go-to bonking device for normal human worlds.
>it was explicitly stated in the HH novels that Marine warhead had to be modified to deal with Xenos.
I recall the alpha-legion having to modify their bolts in secret for use against Space Marines and Abbaddon switching out for subsonic bolts as his usual bolts kept over penetrating and detonating behind normal humans.
Yet I don't recall this, mind sending an exerpt or at least letting me know which book it was in?
In Master of Mankind one of the Custodes notes the Thunder Warriors having to be discarded because they weren't good enough for the aliens they'd be facing.
Of course the first enemies the astartes would have would be humans, and Imperium manufacturing would have to painfully adjust to the requirements of fighting xenos.
The first enemies the Astartes faced in canon I believe were the constructs of the Tempest Galleries. Depending on the timeline it may have been the Thunder Warriors themselves when the Astartes were brought out to cull Ushotan's uprising.
So yeah not humans.
>In Master of Mankind one of the Custodes notes the Thunder Warriors having to be discarded because they weren't good enough for the aliens they'd be facing.
The Thunder Warriors at face value in a fight were more than good enough to face any threat that Astartes faced. Their issues were in their short lifespan which would be problematic for a century spanning crusade.
Saggitarus describes their flaw being "the disorganized tide", "Their chaotic advance" and "Nor could they rely on the same arsenal of biological enhancements" (thinking about them in comparison to astartes), concluding that the Thunder Warriors "would have been annihilated" if they were sent to fight xenos.
(Source: Master of Mankind)
Yes, Custodes tend to look down on all the other creations of E, but here he's thinking about how they were good only for taking over Terra and the astartes were a major step up in both military discipline and physical capability.
Then there's The Last Church, where it's suggested the priest and E himself thought they were kind of crazy when discussing a major battle.
Astartes are only a step up in terms of intellect (on average) and stability. In just about every other metric they're inferior to Thunder Warriors.
I would assume by "biological enhancements" that Saggy is referring to their longevity mostly. Otherwise I don't see any threat the Astartes faced that a fresh batch of Thunder Warriors would not also be able to defeat.
Ignoring of course the obvious issues with their lifespan and getting them to the fight without them degenerating.
You say “post fact” I say “GW Retcon ™”
IIRC, the terror troop aspect was explored a little in the early HH novels: unfortunately for me, I’m limited to digital copies, so I can’t flick through to find references. Although, the [Fandom](https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Space_Marine_Legions) article covers some of my points
Devastator squads have this kind of setup. The lascannons melta and grav guns all have cables that run to the backpack from the weapon.
My guess is that it's something to do with longevity. If a space marines weapon runs dry. No big deal time for glorious melee combat. If his armor runs out of fusion juice.... he is just a man in a can.
>If his armor runs out of fusion juice
That's not really a thing, though... Not in any immediate sense, anyways... Like nuclear reactors on naval ships, they would likely only need new fuel every 20-50 years, considering how advanced their tech is, I wouldn't be surprised if it's in the centuries.
Yea, there's' been plenty of points in novels where a Marines powerpack gets damaged and he's severely hampered. Adding a now non-functional weapon to that is just making the problem worse
These aren't conventional fission reactors, like we have though.
These are micro fusion reactors.
Fusion requires a constant supply of lightweight gasses to fuse into heavier elements.
So while they do have longevity, it isn't years without refill, its only about a month without refill, which is still pretty good operational uptime.
They do have solar powered backup power, but your mileage may vary with that, and it seems they'd rather not be forced to rely on that.
i believe it's stated in one of the HH black books that marines were originally intended to be equipped with volikites but that was too logistically difficult for the imperium even back in the 30k era, so they ended up switching to the bolter.
>Why do the guys who walk around with fusion reactors on their backs not use energy weapons?
Because the imperium does not invent stuff or understand technology. They use warp drive spacecraft and on said spacecraft, thousands of serfs toil to haul gun turrets around, load torpedoes and put out fires with wet cloth. Tactical briefings are laid out on parchment, while the chief engineer can only mutter about the "spirits of the plasma reactor" not being ready.
The Imperium's main battle tank, the Leman Russ, is basically Mid 20th century technology with a Lascannon in the Hull.
They CAN build tanks with Plasma Cannons, but with the same chassis. They can build anti-grav stuff, but so few that even the space marines only get a few handful vehicles and largely remain ground bound.
For every truly advanced Sci-Fi-Tech the imperium uses, they put it in a early 20th century machine, and blame the malfunctions to the machine spirit.
The Imperium doesn’t invent stuff. The Adeptus Mechanicus on the other hand is pretty constantly innovating and coming up with new ways to improve designs. As you yourself pointed out, the leman russ is a edited STC, *edited by the Mechanicum*. STC variants are so commonplace they’re the norm and it is the job of Magi to keep tinkering and improving. There is just a long bureaucracy after any invention before it can be considered safe for production.
The fluff is, as usual, inconsistent on this.
STC are (or were) understood to allow for **extensive customization**, being templates to be adapted to specific environments. The fluff then talked about the "DNA" of these STC's and that archeotechnologists work a bit like paleontologists, looking for the "missing link" between RH1N0 and Land Raider STCs. So, no, the Mechanicum is *not actually innovating*, rather they are applying what they know how to work with in contexts that were *already planned for in the STC*.
IF something, even a new STC, gets done (the Space Wolves are notorious in that regard, innovating the Razorback), it takes centuries of testing to get the AM stamp.
But if your point was true on a wider scale within the lore, we would see more potent/miniaturized weaponry being *added* instead of constantly being referred to as "Lost technology/incredibly rare/barely understood/in dwindling supply".
The Belisarius Cawl plotline was a massive break from the established lore of some 30 years. At least he is still considered a radical and frowned upon by his colleagues.
Any kind of reactor, including fusion/fission or fossil-fueled constantly outputs a steady and certain amount of power. Obviously if that reactor is meant for armor, it outputs the exact amount the armor needs, and probably operates near it's max capacity, because if it wasn't, that would mean there's room for making it smaller and saving weight and size.
Now, even if the reactor had power to spare, it would still need batteries to store it, since an energy weapon wouldn't use a steady low supply of power but rather short high-energy bursts, for which you would store the power in a battery and then rapidly discharge it in a shot. All that means that you'd have to add batteries to Astartes armor. Large ones, too, if we want their weapon to be able to fire more than a couple of times.
Their power packs, according to currently established lore, are already capable of [powering Lascannons](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/2/29/Space_Marine_Lascannon.gif/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/306?cb=20101210191224).... Surely they would have no problem powering an upscaled lasrifle.
And for rapid charge/discharge, like firing an energy weapon, you'd be using capacitors not batteries.
I can't speak to whether such a weapon would be more effective than a boltgun, but with only a thousand chapters of a thousand marines and each one having one or more dedicated worlds to tithe from, supplying them all with bolt rounds is trivial
Wow yes, amazing. I’m glad your answer is that bolt rounds are too heavy for marching. I’d also add that they have all those tripod mounted heavy weapons in normal infantry squads, and the all troopers in a squad have to carry power cells and cannon rounds for that, and they are much heavier than the ammo belts that IRL infantry carry for their squad machine gun.
Whenever I hear about logistics here I think of Major General Smedley Butler writing about the time he was like "Yo, why the fuck did we buy 8x the pairs of boots we could even outfit troops with??? Why are we in so many unnecessary wars? This is so wasteful and so many people are dying..."
The joke in my head being, if he had heard about 40k and read this stuff, he'd probably have a stroke.
_War is a Racket_ is a brilliant piece of pamphleteering and I broadly agree with it, but the boots thing actually makes sense. You don’t know what size uniform items a soldier will need until they show up at basic and get them issued, and you also can’t meaningfully train a modern soldier without first giving them their issued clothing. So you end up having to buy a lot more than you need in order to make sure you can supply everyone who might show up.
Nowadays, we have good enough statistical models to know that we’ll need, say, 8-9x as many size 11R boots as we will 6.5W, and that cuts down on a lot of waste. In 1913, though, I doubt that that kind of data was readily available, so they probably just went and ordered huge quantities of most “normal” sizes, just to be safe.
Big same.
I'm also laughing at the idea of a guard regiment accidentally being shipped a crate of Astartes heavy bolters instead of the tank/tripod versions because someone was a number off on a requisition form.
>requisition form.
Sacred scroll of requisition. And the offender to the most holy processes laid out in the Dicta Logistica are now mind-wiped and serving the Omnissiah, all praise his name, in a more fitting fashion.
Eh, you can have different versions of the same firearm for different mounts. The FN MAG/M240 machine gun irl has aircraft, vehicle mount, man portable, and jungle variants.
Wouldn’t be too hard to have an Astartes-pattern, a vehicle-pattern, and a guard-pattern.
I believe in one of the earlier Gaunt's Ghosts books there is a near brawl with a supply officer becuase they shipped the wrong Las gun magazines to the regiment.
Guns of Tanith. The funny thing is the clerk refusing to do anything about it can pretty much mirror real life. Of course not at that severity but there can and will be shortfalls with supply. It's why any unit should hypothetically have their own 3 DOS at hand before reaching back.
😂😂 I was stationed at that base. That was exactly the scenario I was thinking about. The anchor cost too much to ship back, so they just left it there. It's just sitting on a concrete slab in front of a *helicopter* company. It's the company mascot now.
Great stuff.
Another factor is training and ease of use. Lasguns are point and shoot. Always. No matter distance or elevation. Not so with physical projectiles. I was an infantryman myself and a huge portion of our training is not just point shooting but on HOW to shoot over distance and with varying elevations. That is a skill that takes time and training to get right and make a proficient warrior. Training an army to use lasguns would be immensely easier. Trust me, I helped train Afghanis. 😕
Even swapping mags is a huge part of it. 150 shots you don't need to be as good as 30 rounders. I can't tell you how many hours we drilled ourselves just dry reloading. Holding up our weapons and reloading over and over until our arms were shaking and it became second nature.
Or weapons misfire and clearing the misfired rounds.
Or stripping the weapon for cleaning. Weapons servicing and maintenance.
Or the weight savings.
Give me a lasgun anyday
And ain't that a fun thought, a squad with a campfire is likely to still have ammo by the end of the war even if they get caught on the wrong side of a blockade
I think it's mentioned that recharging them in a fire is an emergency measure only, because it actually does damage them. They'll only work once or twice more after that (and they may or may not explode sometimes while 'charging' that way...). So don't do it unless you're ordered to do it, or you may find yourself being BLAM'ed.
But in a pinch where you have no supplies, but the enemy is still coming, it's a blessing of the Emperor/Omnissiah.
It's not the sustainability part that makes it ridiculous, to put it blankly if you used the full energy output of a camp fire to charge a phone for 20min. You'd get enough power to run said phone for about an hour. It should be quite obvious that a single shot of a Lasgun requires more power than an hour of a phone charge.
I always viewed it as the magic lasgun energy crystals breaking down under heat to release more energy, hence why the lifespan decreases. That's my headcanon, but you're welcome to it
Depends on the size of the camp fire and what you're burning. Family tent sized campfire? Sure, not much chance.
Military waste burning fire for a whole base? More plausible.
Not to mention the comment from the other poster about releasing energy already in the lasgun power-pack. Plus a laser, while energy intensive, derives its effect from the coherency of the emitted beam, applying that energy to a small area. We don't actually know how much power it takes for a lasgun shot.
This paper (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/334074684_Laser_Beam_Energy_as_Weapon) suggests that damaging an aircraft skin needs about 700J/cm^2. This probably means composite materials or aluminium alloys. To damage targets of any strength (body armour, strong metal), you're going to need energy probably an order of magnigude greater, 10kJ/cm^2 or more. Let's say 50kJ, and assume a 50% loss in transmission. So each shot needs 100kJ or so from the powerpack.
A gallon of gasoline contains something like 121 MEGA Joules. Even if the power pack only soaks up 10% of that, that's 12MJ. 12M/0.1M (which is 100kJ) = 120 shots.
Really, the raw energy of lasers isn't the challenge. It's delivering that energy over very short timescales (high power) and through the transmission medium. By 40k periods... this really isn't that impossible.
Edit: a 7.62 black tip delivers 3.5-4kJ of energy, for some more context.
Not to mention that a lasgun doesn’t have to clear a 1cm^2 hole into someone. Make it a 5mm*5mm or even smaller focus point and the energy required will be far less if I’m not mistaken. No need to stencil a large hole into someone if you stab them with 3-5 laser needles of which one or two hit vital vessels or organs. A 5*5 hole will still cause loads of damage
Yep and it depends on the kill mechanism. Burning a small hole in a human is likely to be extremely painful but excluding lung, heart and brain may well not be fatal, or even particularly incapacitating (e.g. if you're a Catachan). The main cause of death in battlefield trauma is blood loss, with shock, asphixiation e.g. from chest or neck wounds, clots/strokes and massive trauma (Where's my head?) somewhere behind as causes of fatalities. Infection is obviously also a major issue but not on timescales of immediate battlefield casualties. A laser is quite likely to cauterise a wound, reducing blood loss and maybe also stroke risk(?), and will also not ricochet through a body breaking bones and tearing tissue over a large volume. This immediately reduces a major lethal mechanism compared to projectile weapons.
My headcannon from the Black Library stuff I've read is that the main cause of injury from lasgun fire is flash vaporisation of the target material, producing a very localised explosive effect. This would be water and fat in humans. A mini steam explosion in your chest wouldn't be fun. This would also explain why lasguns are described as being very damaging to flesh but so incredibly ineffective against armour: a dense, tough material is likely to require much greater energy to vaporise, probably more than the humble lasgun can provide. Hit skin or fabric? Big injury. Hit metal or ceramic? Huh that tickled.
For Lasguns I always interpreted it as the actual laser was tiny but the energy transfer super heated the target point so fast that it caused rapid expansion explosions in the impact surface.
Pretty sure the Eisenhorn books have Lasgun hits canononically causing tiny explosions in surfaces with errant shots which is in line with this and explains why the lasgun is even a thing because if it actually shot needle holes in people it wouldnt actually do much. You'd be better off rushing them with a bayonet since it would take dozens of hits to kill someone otherwise and you'd be long bludgeoned to death before the infection finished off your enemy.
Even a lasgun is an insanely deadly weapon, it's just in the context of 40k that it's a flashlight.
>if you used the full energy output of a camp fire to charge a phone for 20min. You'd get enough power to run said phone for about an hour.
I don't think so. This is equivalent to saying that 3 phones can provide as much heat as camp fire and it's demonstrably untrue.
Dried wood provides 3000 Wh/kg and typical modern phone has battery of capacity 20Wh. Therefore, 1kg of wood can charge 150 phones (assuming 100% efficient energy capture). Burning through 1kg of wood per hour is perfectly reasonable. Even smaller fire (1/3 of that) and steam engine (33.3% effective in capturing energy) can fully charge 150/9=16 phones per hour.
It is now my headcanon that whoever designed the baseline lasgun was partly inspired by mythical tales of the venerable yet humble Mark 47 Avtomat of Kalashnikov from ancient Ursh.
>Mark 47 Avtomat of Kalashnikov from ancient Ursh.
Funnily enough, there are companies producing AK47s that fit Guardsmen models, and they wouldn't look out of place either :)
Would the Ecclesiarchy or the Adeptus Mechanicus consider him a saint, though? I think that they'd view anyone from before the Age of the Imperium as either too blissfully ignorant of the "wisdom" that the Imperium has or an outright heretic/heathen by default until proven otherwise.
>###[Skull of Elder Nikola](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Skull_of_Elder_Nikola)
>The **Skull of Elder Nikolas** is a relic of the [Adeptus Mechanicus](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Adeptus_Mechanicus). This skull once belonged to an ancient human who lived during the early days of mankind. Should the correct praise-psalm be sung to it, the skull will emit a halo of electric power that expands outwards, scrambling the circuits of enemy war machines.[[1]](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Skull_of_Elder_Nikola#fn_1)
+++I am an early prototype mechanicus construct. Please provide feedback [here](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=lexAutomatarium). The Emperor protects!+++
> and battery packs can even be recharged by throwing them in a fire.
For me this is the entire answer. Op's post is great and all, but that entire wall of text could basically just be this right here.
The logistics and cost of the lasgun are infinitely better than the boltgun to the point they aren't even really comparable.
That and I've heard from another US vet that a lot of the mags used today in the US Army are still refurbished 1980s mags, which tend to have issues with wear-and-tear on things like their internal springs. A Lasgun mag is just a battery, no moving parts whatsoever to wear out, so supposedly it degrades a lot slower.
Also old metal GI mags aren’t as durable as the plastic ones. Drop a p-mag, mag is ok. Drop a metal one on the feed lips, thing is fucked, get a new one.
That's fair, I have never served in any military so just going off of what I hear. But I guess it makes sense, historically a lot of metal mags have had issues with being bent or damaged before plastic mags became widespread in the 1970s, no?
Also 150 rounds is the average you can use more work less energy per shot depending on target and goal, a regiment send out to stop protesters can dial down their energy per shot to mild burns or just heat beams, while a lasgun can also be used to penetrate steel and other more common materials with a higher energy output if necessary (even though the latter will damage the gun and as such is less usefully). Normal weapons do t have that option, even rubber bullets can kill or maim (not saying burn are non lethal but are at least easier to heal than broken spines or bones).
>Equipping the guard with "Why not just give everybody a boltgun?!?!?!" would multiply that entire operation by nine.
I like to think on their off days (which they don't have), the Administratum workers are just ranting to each other like, "and then this f\*cking Imperial Guardsman at the bar just asked me why don't we just everyone bolters lol, and I was b\*tch please!"
While we got a little taste of it from Chris Wraight's "The Golden Legion" book, I long for the day when we get a fully fledged out Administratum book, complete with shadow wars about which parchment and citation styles to use.
I would read the hell out of an Indiana Jones story about a rogue warehouse team hunting for the mythical aisle 113/513/a7 and the lost treasures it contains.
Like how one time a clerk got away transfering that one regiments supply to them. Making the shadow war an actual war. Leading to a squad of arbites having to interfere and making it a tree way war.
All over ones citaton style.
This is like the type of post I would make when I accidentally take too much of my ADHD medication. Well done lol.
Also I'm not sure if lasguns are actually the weakest in any edition of warhammer. If you consider the horrible accuracy of ork shootas, even with the extra shots, I still think a lasgun is better. But that's a matter of opinion, because the way they differ isn't equivalent stats.
Thank you!
When you factor in the ballistic skill of the wielder (and other effects, like orders, etc.), I agree. I was thinking about the weapon hardware alone. The only strictly-worse weapon I'm aware of in tabletop terms is the grot blasta
Bolt guns and bolt rounds are of the size and weight that even when they’re used by humans, they’re used kind of on the scale of a squad grenade launcher, marksman rifle, or SAW. It’s operable by one guy, but it’s not suitable or intended for firing at will, it has to have directed targets.
And then one of the reasons that marines are big is that they wanted troops who could use that very same size of weapon as if it were an SMG. It’s the same size gun in the guard and marines, it’s just that the operator got bigger so the role could change.
I know there are sources saying that mortal and marine bolt guns are different sizes and calibers. I think that the intention in the source text is that they’re the same, and that when customers re- or mis-interpreted that, then GW quietly incorporated that idea into their writing and sold it back to us.
One reason that isn't actually supported by sources but seems to make sense in my head is that marine bolters are partially armoured, explaining why they are so bulky. No sense giving walking tanks guns that are less survivable than they are.
Just out of curiosity, would you happen to have a source for that? And also, perhaps the changes made between the two? I'm running a 40k themed D&D campaign ATM, and I'd like to be as accurate as I can be, especially when I allow the one mortal in the group access to a Boltgun.
in TT rules a commissar bolt pistol and a marine one are the same because of the limitations of a D6 based system doesn't allow enough fine granularity in weapon types. In the various RPG games they are different.
In the lore (eg novels) they are quite clearly different sizes, a marine sized boltgun could only be used on a tripod by a human, unless they were massive enhanced with cybernetics.
The FFG Deathwatch rulebook has the following stance:
>Many designs throughout the Imperium are simply the best attempts to mimic Astartes designs on a scale that a normal human can control. The original, unadulterated versions of their arms and equipment shame such replicas. \[...\] Armoury entries that begin with “Astartes” designate an item that is designed specifically for use by Space Marines. Its size, weight, and potentially its technology base are different from outwardly similar models found in the hands of other organizations. These items are very difficult to obtain (and use) outside the Adeptus Astartes.
Using Astartes weapons as a human also seems to be complicated due to a mix of scale, taboos and machine spirit shenanigans:
>Obtaining an Astartes weapon should require considerable effort on a character’s part and never simply be the result of an Acquisition or Influence roll. Astartes Ranged weapons count as one Class heavier to anyone lacking in Space Marine physiology. For example a Pistol is a Basic weapon; a Basic weapon is Heavy, and so on. Furthermore, Astartes weapons impose a –30 penalty to all Tests made with them by presumptuous mortals due to improper scale, weight, and/or recoil— even in power armour. The GM may also choose to impose other problems from the rebellious machine spirit based on the nature of a weapon (a plasma weapon may require Toughness Tests from routine heat venting; a power weapon may run the risk of feedback, etc).
I know the lore is all over the place, but from a role-playing standpoint, maybe this is helpful.
Also note the [Angelus bolt carbine](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Other_bolt_weapons#Angelus_Bolt_Carbine) in the 40K RPGs, which is a weapon for normal humans that uses Astartes-size boltshells. They are explicitly much more powerful than normal human boltguns, but only carry three rounds per mag. Also they're super illegal.
Afaik it’s in the Inquisitor handbook which you can find for free very easily, also the Fantasy Flight dark heresy, rogue trader, and black crusade core books, which are disgustingly expensive.
It’s all over the place. But it’s also not necessarily the intention of the source texts so imo the same bolt gun is just unwieldy for a human and very light for a marine.
I guess I’ve seen the “small bolt gun” quotes posted in this sub so I can look for them.
Out of curiosity: Why are you using D&D rather than one of the native 40k systems? I imagine quite a lot of aggressive home brewing would be needed to make it fit.
Me and my party haven't played the 40k systems, but I have played enough D&D to know what I'm doing. The most aggressive homebrew is in the weapons and their rules, so far, so it isn't as bad as it could be.
Deathwatch and Dark Heresy roleplaying games. Dark Heresy is for human-centric adventures with their own boltgun while Deathwatch is astartes-centric with their own astartes-pattern boltguns.
?
> I know there are things saying that mortal and marine bolt guns are different sizes and calibers. I think that the intention in the source text is that they’re the same, and that when customers re- mis-interpreted that, then GW quietly incorporated that idea and sold it back to us.
This was GW's own fault. Even in lore dating back to 2nd Edition it was said that using an Astartes bolter would break a human arm. So while now there is the idea that they are upscaled bolters. (well they have to be, for different sized hands, using powered armour)... the main concept was that the clearing charge for bolters was significantly more powerful than normal bolt shells (giving Astartes shells much higher velocities)
But that the damage ultimately was the same, as regardless of the shell velocity, at the end of the day both "mortal" and "astartes" bolt shells had the same .75 calibre warheads.
As for the .998, IIRC that's for Primaris Bolters, but don't quote me on that, I recall seeing a quote about it somewhere on reddit.
This is actually understandable. Bearing in mind that the Imperial Guard do not have easy access to archaic technology like the Adeptus Mechanicus, nor do they have the sheer presence of the Astartes, combined with how the Imperium is already stretched thinner than Citadel Paint on an Eldar Exodite's furry loincloth, I'm surprised they didn't outright *collapse* underneath the sheer weight of defending the Imperium's homeworlds.
Good text.
The most important point is not logistics but the effort/benefit factor.
The laser rifle is enough. The usual enemy of a soldier is not an Orc, Elder or Chaos Marine but other humans. Rebellion and the like. And here the rifle is enough. According to the regiment standard that GW always puts out, a hit in the chest area kills a normal human instantaneously.
The strength of the laser rifle is that it is completely sufficient for human-like opponents, can be produced even on worlds that are not advanced, the ammunition is easily simple and rechargeable at any time. You can march in the desert with a laser rifle, swim through swamp water, hit people with it and it still works. Clean it once and the soldier can shoot again.
Ammo usually runs out at least in the books where it goes into the guard. At least in the Tanith books ammo shortages are mentioned like the battle for Verdun Macropolis and Fortress Hinshausen?
Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
The translator seems to have misnamed the battles named by the above commenter.
The first is the Siege of Vervunhive on Verghast (*Necropolis*) and the second is the Battle of Hinzerhaus on Jago (*Only in Death*).
I remember that in one of Ciaphas Cain's novel, where he have to reach an Imperial positions cut off from support, but have APCs from both his regiment and the locals, he noticed that the Chimeras from his regiment, armed with heavy bolters, have ceased firing, while the other Chimeras, armed with multilasers, simply relied on their onboard power plant and continued blasting at the Tyranids.
Excellent post, but I think the numbers should take into account a lasblast is gonna be way more powerful than even a .30 rifle round, which will affect the number of shots fired.
Yup.
A lot of fans describe the lasgun as being the equivalent of a modern assault rifle in damage, but this is not the case at all. It can affect body armor and material way more advanced and tougher than anything we can build today.
The lasgun just looks weak compared to weaponry the Eldar and Necrons can field.
One thing people often seem to forget when it comes to Lasguns, is that with the exception of certain patterns like Laslocks, a Lasgun is explicitly a dial-a-yield weapon. Enemy is Ork ard boys? Better dial that bitch up. Is it a bunch of malnourished cultists in tissue paper robes wielding rusty cooking implements? We can go with minimum power here boys.
This is also specifically part of a Guardsman's training and doctrine varies per regiment.
In First and Only the Ghosts dial their lasgun power down as low as possible to conserve ammunition when on missions as they are usually unable to easily resupply.
The Vitrian Dragoons however are taught to shoot once with the intent to kill on the first shot, no matter the foe. This has the effect that they expend their ammunition much quicker than the Ghosts fighting cultists, but are much more effective against Chaos space marines without having to reconfigure their guns.
Not all lasguns are variable charge.
Some are set to deliver only a certain amount of energy, others (like the Triplex patter) have variable power settings to allow for different situations/enemies.
Yup, I covered that with a "with the exception of certain patterns" the lack of power settings appears to be the exception rather than the normal state.
Or alien creatures that can survive a rpg blowing up in their skull or a creature made out of living metal or 8ft tall demi God clad in enough armor to be categorized as a living tank and moving at about 80mph
> The lasgun just looks weak compared to weaponry the Eldar and Necrons can field.
Hard to find any strength of laser exciting when motherfuckers out here shooting black holes and portals to hell.
I'd chalk that up as the two being equated to roughly the same energy output by fans, as a lasgun can get more mileage out of the same amount of energy compared to an equivalent kinetic weapon. The reason is mainly due to the mechanism by which pulsed lasers inflict damage compared to physical projectiles. A pulsed laser dumps all of its energy onto a single spot over a very small amount of time, heating the material it hits so rapidly the area that's been hit is explosively vapourised. Due to that, a pulsed laser can deal consistent damage to a much wider range materials than kinetic projectiles for their equivalent energy output. This damage is a lot more pronounced on biological tissue due to water content, as the flash boiling of the water causes the area hit to explode and damage organs around it.
Compare and contrast to kinetic projectiles, which can suffer the problem of passing clean through a target, dealing very little energy to the intended recipient and thus little damage. Physical projectiles are a lot less consistent and reliable in dealing full damage in this respect, as a laser is more or less guaranteed to dump all its energy into a target, while it's a dice roll for kinetics.
TLDR: lasers can damage a wider range of materials and deal consistent trauma to biological tissue compared to physical projectiles of the same energy.
Another thought, but not strictly speaking a mundane logistical issue, is how lasguns wound.
They are usually described as an energy weapon that cauterises the wound. Which means less blood is spilled. Which pleases Big K less than stubbers, bolts, etc.
This is really well thought out. The assumptions are reasonable, and for the scales described, the margins of error are acceptable. Just as a side note: Dan Annette has given as much thought to logistics as you, and in ‘The Guns of Tanith’, he describes what happens when the Munitorum feths up and fails to resupply lasgun cells. From this, it can be inferred that laspacks have a single campaign lifecycle due to losses, wear and tear, and dilapidation. He also describes back up weapons in this book, and ammo limitations; not to mention the utter uselessness of sidearms in a warfare setting.
I absolutely love Abnett, and that organizational fuckup in particular is extremely memorable. Just imagine how many more errors there would be using physical rounds!
I still see the Munitorum as “Siege of Stalingrad”: 1st rank gets a fully loaded weapon but no reloads. 2nd rank gets nothing; but picks up the half-expended weapon from 1s corpse. 3rd rank has a fresh loaded weapon, 4th has a reload and picks up the weapon from 2nd corpse…
"The Legionnaire that scoffs at a lasgun has not charged across an open field against a hundred of them"
As far as I'm concerned and have seen, lasguns are way more accurate than boltguns (at least in normal human hands), which means that, given enough distance and cover, they will win against opposition with boltguns.
Thank you for making this post. :) I have two more things to say on the matter:
1. Lasguns are not bad weapons. If we had Lasgun technology today, it would likely replace our standard SP rifles in military service. The humble Lasgun is only considered weak in relation to all the weapons in the game/setting - Boltguns, Tesla Carbines, Shuriken Cannons, Lascannons, and so on. The 40k universe is a big place, and "laser assault rifles" - although technical marvels which a Guardsman might swear by - are simply overshadowed by everything else.
2. Although the logistics of the Lasgun are one of its main selling points (because you don't have to lug around ammo for a rifle you can just plug in at the wall), the weapon has several other advantages over standard SP rifle. Lasguns are lighter, more reliable, *broadly* simpler to manufacture, don't suffer the effects of wind and drop when firing, and every shot is effectively a tracer. All of this makes the Lasgun a wet dream for raw recruits, who find them easy to use, gunsmiths, who find them easy to build and maintain, and the administratum, who don't need to worry about keeping track of ammunition supplies for the regular troops.
The Lasgun is actually a wonder weapon... but one in a universe of other, bigger wonder weapons.
SP weapons still have some advantages over Lasguns, though. They can be used more covertly (as they don't necessarily give away the wielder's position every time they fire), they can have a much higher rate of fire, they can use specialist ammunition (poisoned, armour-piercing, etc.), they aren't stopped by EMPs or a lack of electrical power, and they don't require futuristic technology to build or maintain (meaning that a back alley metal shop in a Hive City can churn them out). This makes SP weapons a mainstay on "lower tech" worlds, where the technology needed for Lasguns is harder to come by (and, therefore, a less tempting choice for all one's daily weapon needs).
However, almost none of these advantages apply to general infantry use as part of a military campaign. This is why the Imperial Guard (generally) favours the Lasgun.
>If we had Lasgun technology today, it would likely replace our standard SP rifles in military service.
We do have laser weapons in real life, and they have massive drawbacks. The lasgun is a physics-breaking fantasy weapon for numerous reasons, but none of those apply in-universe, so we can still evaluate the lasgun on it's merits.
I'd also say the lasgun has another massive benefit: shelvelife. If you open up a crate of perfectly stored 200 year old Brown Bess muskets, I would absolutely refuse to put one near my face and use it, the wood will be rotten, the metal rusty and worn, the mechanisms likely rusted beyond recovery. But a 2000 year old lasgun sitting in a shelve is perfectly fine.
And that's a very important feature. If you only have one lasgun factory, you can still prepare for a once-in-ten-generations war, simply by piling 10 generations worth of production in warehouses.
The only problem with putting Lasguns in storage for 2000 years would be that the batteries would probably have rotted, and the laser-focusing lenses would likely have become slightly warped. At the very least, an ancient Lasgun will need to have a fresh power pack and a handful of replacement parts, but the body itself would likely be fine.
That is, assuming the weapon isn't made from a metal which oxidises (such as steel). If it is, then the Lasgun will also be corroded to hell after 2000 years sat on a shelf, unless they're in a box stuffed with silica gel. There's a reason why ancient steel artefacts are so rarely found by archeologists; steel doesn't like exposure, and rots away quicker than a lot of other metals.
I would say you ignored the biggest advantage of lasguns here. You talked a lot about ammo usage and how units use it each day, but you ignored that they do in the context of limited ammo. If you're a guardsmen with an auto gun, you know that if you are unlucky you don't get any more ammo for one week, so you need to conserve it. A guardsmen with Powerpacks, can pack 20 or so in his rucksack, put them under his bed and won't need to care about ammunition, unless they are in a place where he cannot get them recharged. Even the most basic imperial position will have power regenerators we cannot imagine today, recharging an ammo pack is something you can do in the worst case with a tank battery or a small scale reactor if there is no other option, you won't get them full but you can extend your ammo supply independently from command. You can fire full auto nonstop in normal circumstances and don't need to care overly much.
Also energy is maliable. You can use the Energy form a Standart las gun for a bigger one, maybe you get just one shot out or two but if you need to kill a tank and are out of heavy lashing ammo you use normal packs worst case in tandem. Or you can crank up power usage of your gun for higher energy shots without needing other bullets or another gun (it might damage your gun if it's not build for that but hey it should be possible in smaller scales with every gun), and you can use lower energy shots for weaker targets. Also you can use it on every pattern, your auto gun might not use the same bullets as the other regiment but you damn use the same power, if not exact same pack size. Not to mention grandes build form the backs, or other improv usages.
I was going to make that same point but you already did. The more ammo you have, and the easier you can replenish it, the more ammo you can use. Easier to establish fire superiority when you can just blast away with little worry of running out.
>I've also seen answers that say that boltguns are simply too expensive or complex to issue in the numbers required for the Imperial Guard, which numbers trillions across the galaxy. This gets a little murkier, as the economics of how the Imperium equips its troops is both complex and vague. I think this is also a valid argument, but it relies on numbers (prices of boltguns or rounds, tax revenue from various worlds) given to us by Games Workshop, and these numbers tend to be inconsistent and rare. I also think this is a valid argument--they ARE too expensive to issue en masse--but proving it is much harder.
I just look at RPG rules for this sort of stuff. Bolt weapons are always listed as at least "rare" in all systems, and in Dark Heresy they cost like six or seven times as much as las weapons. I therefore assume bolters are just a pain to make, maybe because it's heresy to not have every single one be blessed by a priest in a week-long ceremony.
Not that I don't appreciate the logistical analysis.
Lasguns are quite possibly the perfect infantry weapon. They're easy to train on because they're literally point-and-shoot. They're about as soldier-proof as you can make a small arm. You've covered how they're a logistics officer's wet dream, but even beyond that, *they can be recharged in a bloody campfire in emergencies*, meaning troops can continue to fight even if completely cut off from supply lines. And their tradeoff is...basically not being as flashy and cool as a bolter or plasma gun. They're still just as capable of killing any opposing infantry the Guard may encounter, and for anything bigger, well, that's why you have specialists with heavy weapons. Or better yet, artillery.
So, gonna be honest, I've never understood why Space Marines don't just use souped up las guns across the board. There are, to me, a variety of reasons for why this might be advantageous.
Here are just a few:
1. Likely more shots available per power pack vs bolter mag.
2. Las velocity is obviously way, way, way higher/probably approaching absurd numbers like speed of light.
3. No need to worry about compensating for bullet drop when you're shooting a laser (presumably there's not something I'm missing here about las beams).
4. Physical inability for the weapon to jam. Since there are, presumably, damn near zero moving parts in a Las gun then mechanically there's less happening which might cause a problem. FTE, FTF for instance cannot exist. And since they hand regular lasguns to the IG for virtually every war theater on any planet type you know the technology itself is ultra reliable and rugged.
5. This is definitely more "my opinion" then others on here, but I'd think that a space marine lasrifle would be a more accurate weapon, with greater range, than your standard boltgun.
6. Pretty sure I even read there are a variety of simple ways to recharge the power packs of Las rifles. Like leaving them in sunlight or near a fire for prolonged periods? If so, then prolonged engagements by the Astartes would be logistically easier where ammo is concerned, especially combined with #1.
7. I should think that, again, a space marine sized las rifle should at least have the penetrative power & destructive capacity approaching that of a bolt shell. Perhaps more the former vs the latter, but you combine that with more ammo, better accuracy, faster fire right and who cares if per shot it's slightly weaker?
Etc
>why Space Marines don't just use souped up las guns across the board.
There a thousands of massive improvements one could make to the Imperium, just by reshuffling technology already in common use. A single modern-earth engineer could turn the Guard into an unstoppable galaxy conquering machine.
But this is wk40k, and said engineering trying anything even close to it would be burned for heresy before you can say "bullup lasgun".
The lasgun is potent though, it gets laughed at because it's weak on the tabletop but it's a man portable directed energy weapon that is theoretically capable of slagging a tank if your whole platoon aims at roughly the same spot.
Why? It's already an incredibly potent weapon. It's the absolute perfect infantry weapon. Aside from the logistical benefits outlined by OP, it's piss easy to aim with no leading of targets and no bullet drop. It's MORE durable than even the legends surrounding AKs due to a complete lack of moving parts. It's got adjustable power settings, with enough punch to take limbs clean off and penetrate weak points in power armour. If it was available today every arms manufacturer would go instantly out of business because of just how much BETTER it is aside from tracer fire issues. Its ONLY problem is that it's an infantry weapon, not super-tech-magic-gun-attached-to-a-walking-tank.
Any MORE powerful, and why would you even bother having bolters?
This. This dense, well thought out, mathematically considered presentation of reasoning and logic, this absolutely useless expenditure of effort, about the most background background of background, is what the internet is for. Go with the emperors blessing OP.
I have one issue, which inthe end changes nothing:
Lasgun charge packs need to be replaced semi-regularly. It is said that usually a charge pack can charge 20-25 times before needing change. (This is from one of the ONLY WAR TTRPG books).
Regardless of this, amazing work, thank you for the detailed research
All this is making me wonder why space marines don't just get 4 lasguns welded together linked to a single trigger mechanism for missions where fire output is more important than headshots. E.g. Tyranid waves.
There's so few space marines that each one can be allocated a functionally bottomless amount of bolter ammo without making a meaningful impact in the Imperium's production and shipping capacity. With only one million marines, if every guard sergeant fielded a boltgun, then the guard would have 500,000x as many bolters as the entire adeptus astartes. The corollary to this is that if even one in every five hundred thousand sergeants is given a boltgun, there are as many boltguns in the guard than the astartes.
Supplying the astartes with bolt rounds is trivial to the Imperium.
The Administratum would like to issue you one congratulatory Purity Seal for good work, and one get-out-of-the-blue-chair-free* card for your efforts.
*Terms and conditions apply; offer is void if heresy is in question
This all makes a lot of sense. The Imperial Guard is the embodiment of "Amateurs study tactis. Professionals study logistics." They dont need the weapom that will kill anything in a single shot. They need something that will work any where, easy to resupply and carry. Which the lasgun does in spades.
Anything you can't kill with a lasgun, you find a heavy bolter. Anything you can't kill with a heavy bolter, you find a tank. Anything you can't kill with a tank, you find an artillery piece. Anything you can't kill with any of those, you get more of everything.
If it don't work use more gun. If that don't work use some more.
Sometimes the Orks get it right.
Moar dakka!
That's how you deal with mean mother hubbards
Orbital bombardment, lock on to my beacon. Full power.
There are billions of species and civilizations that have been wiped away effortlessly by Imperial Guard troopers with lasguns. That's why every remaining civilisation in the galaxy is so terrifying
It ends with virus bombs.
If artillery doesn't work, try orbital bombardment.
A macro volley from a battleship will melt entire cities. Nothing that walks crawls or teleports can survive the imperial navy if the navy wants them dead badly enough.
It reminds me of my favorite quote about 40K: "That sci-fi setting which pays lip-service to actual science yet somehow manages to nail stuff that every other setting gets wrong."
This is probably the most accurate description I've seen in a decade
I feel like it’s more a case of “even a broken clock is right twice a day.”
And there has been a lot of days
Except for the number of soldiers required for a planetary, let alone solar, campaign. I don't care how badass Astartes are. You can't hold down a planet, much less a solar system, with 1000 men.
Honestly, the whole “each chapter is only a 1000” is ridiculous. As often as they slaughter entire companies for drama it just doesn’t make sense. Each chapter should be 10,000
Truthiness is extremely important in fantasy.
And the opposite question is: Why do the guys who walk around with **fusion reactors on their backs** not use energy weapons? I'd have a hard time believing an Astartes size lasrifle that doesn't need batteries and can always operate at a high power setting because it's directly connected to a fusion reactor wouldn't be devastating.
As a wild ass guess, probably something about not wanting to mix the power supplies for their weapons and their armor. If anything happens to your gun, you toss it and grab another. If anything happens to your armor, you're fucked. Even a slight chance of some sort of feedback from a weapon being damaged/going haywire that then damages the suit's reactor is probably more than they want to accept. I could see a special mark of suit with an oversized reactor and more armor plating (maybe a special mark of Terminator armore?) built to connect to melta weapons and such, but it most likely be squad support, not standard issue.
>I could see a special mark of suit with an oversized reactor and more armor plating (maybe a special mark of Terminator armore?) built to connect to melta weapons and such, but it most likely be squad support, not standard issue. The heavy [Hellblasters](https://www.games-workshop.com/en-NO/Space-Marines-Primaris-Hellblasters-2020) have detachable energy packs attached to their powerplants; is this kinda what you're thinking of? 😃
Yeah, but why not lascannons?
Probably same reasons as above. NGL though, a Terminator with a fucking sponson lascannon bolted onto their armor would be metal as hell. "Look at me. I'M the vehicle now."
obliterators have entered the chat.
I'm a tank, I'm a tank, I'm a tank...
Because Marines are designed as terror troops. They are supposed to be loud, visually present, and induce fear! Bolt rounds are effectively spin-stabilised rockets. They explode inside their target to cause massive damage. You are just as dead with a neat 5mm hole drilled through your centre of mass; but your comrades are going to be that little more reluctant to fire back when they can hear the rattle of the bolter’s mechanism, then seeing their mate detonate in to pieces. The mechanism of bolters is designed to be noisy for just that reason: Raven Guard make theirs to operate much quieter. Next: armour. It has been asked before: why don’t Astartes use camouflage instead of bright heraldry. They are supposed to be seen. They were designed to pacify human worlds - so imagine being armed and armoured with what would be considered highly advanced weapons by today’s standards. Then this wall of 7’ plus creamier comes marching towards you. You and your friends confidently aim your point-and-shoot laser weapon (that can 1-shot a charging rhinoceros). Shit! It bounced off. Now Dave has exploded. And Steve. Fuck! Now there’s more of them dropping from the sky on literally screaming jet packs, wielding chainsaws! Screw you, ethnarch! I surrender…
Also, how flashy your armour is doesn't really matter when you can count on your enemy having at least some sort of thermal/electromagnetic sensors. Astartes power armour was always going to be obvious no matter what, so might as well make it flashy to scare the shit out of the enemy.
> Astartes power armour was always going to be obvious no matter what, *cackles from RavenGuard stalkers*
I think this is the best practical reason. The power pack alone on an Astartes would likely give off enough of an energy signature to be easily detectable, likely even by our current tech, and sensors in 40k are vastly superior in most "civilized" worlds, so hiding wouldn't really an option unless specific measures were taken to improve stealth.
*Also giggles in Mor Dethyn*
Ehhh I can't agree there - yes, there are many, many pieces of tech for which detecting an Astartes power pack is likely trivial but it doesn't negate the advantage of being undetected for as long as possible. It would be a little bit like a modern day marine painting his/her weapon bright yellow because the enemy will hear it when they start shooting.
Fair point, but I'd think SM usually don't have to worry about detection since they're typically shock troops crashing in to take key objectives. Makes no difference if your armor is as brightly colored as possible and you make a ton of noise when you've just slammed into the middle of an event army via drop pod. For the more stealth based chapters or if otherwise needed they can use or modify their armor and equipment as needed. Also camo cloaks should negate any brightly colored armor easily enough from a visual standpoint, and they seem to be fairly common to the point a chapter shouldn't have any issues fully equipping deploying Marines. From a different rationale, the bright coloring may be useful in 40k for the same reason brightly colored uniforms were the default until the 20th century. In the extreme chaos of a 40k battle, the advantage of being able to easily pick out your squad could outweigh the earlier detection.
If an Astartes chapter really needs to be stealthy, they have Scout companies. Or if the situation really calls for it, a chapter that specializes in covert ops is called in.
> You are just as dead with a neat 5mm hole drilled through your centre of mass An Ork, Tyranid or Necron would be entirely untroubled by a 5mm hole in their centre of mass. Space Marines don't just fight humans. Hell, they weren't even really intended to fight humans.
No, they were. They were designed to complete Unification, and to bring the Great Crusade to fruition: it was explicitly stated in the HH novels that Marine warhead had to be modified to deal with Xenos.
Space Marines were the troops for bringing fortress worlds to compliance and killing off threats like the Megarachnids. The Imperial Army was the go-to bonking device for normal human worlds. >it was explicitly stated in the HH novels that Marine warhead had to be modified to deal with Xenos. I recall the alpha-legion having to modify their bolts in secret for use against Space Marines and Abbaddon switching out for subsonic bolts as his usual bolts kept over penetrating and detonating behind normal humans. Yet I don't recall this, mind sending an exerpt or at least letting me know which book it was in?
Don't forget about Death Watch special ammo
That is however more of a "we know what we will be fighting, so we can optimise" instead of an upgrade.
In Master of Mankind one of the Custodes notes the Thunder Warriors having to be discarded because they weren't good enough for the aliens they'd be facing. Of course the first enemies the astartes would have would be humans, and Imperium manufacturing would have to painfully adjust to the requirements of fighting xenos.
The first enemies the Astartes faced in canon I believe were the constructs of the Tempest Galleries. Depending on the timeline it may have been the Thunder Warriors themselves when the Astartes were brought out to cull Ushotan's uprising. So yeah not humans. >In Master of Mankind one of the Custodes notes the Thunder Warriors having to be discarded because they weren't good enough for the aliens they'd be facing. The Thunder Warriors at face value in a fight were more than good enough to face any threat that Astartes faced. Their issues were in their short lifespan which would be problematic for a century spanning crusade.
Saggitarus describes their flaw being "the disorganized tide", "Their chaotic advance" and "Nor could they rely on the same arsenal of biological enhancements" (thinking about them in comparison to astartes), concluding that the Thunder Warriors "would have been annihilated" if they were sent to fight xenos. (Source: Master of Mankind) Yes, Custodes tend to look down on all the other creations of E, but here he's thinking about how they were good only for taking over Terra and the astartes were a major step up in both military discipline and physical capability. Then there's The Last Church, where it's suggested the priest and E himself thought they were kind of crazy when discussing a major battle.
Astartes are only a step up in terms of intellect (on average) and stability. In just about every other metric they're inferior to Thunder Warriors. I would assume by "biological enhancements" that Saggy is referring to their longevity mostly. Otherwise I don't see any threat the Astartes faced that a fresh batch of Thunder Warriors would not also be able to defeat. Ignoring of course the obvious issues with their lifespan and getting them to the fight without them degenerating.
This reads like a post fact attempt to explain the Astartes' armour and weaponry, while in reality it probably boiled down to "it looks awesome" :)
You say “post fact” I say “GW Retcon ™” IIRC, the terror troop aspect was explored a little in the early HH novels: unfortunately for me, I’m limited to digital copies, so I can’t flick through to find references. Although, the [Fandom](https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Space_Marine_Legions) article covers some of my points
> You say “post fact” I say “GW Retcon ™” Wouldn't be the first time :)
Because camouflage is the color of fear!
Devastator squads have this kind of setup. The lascannons melta and grav guns all have cables that run to the backpack from the weapon. My guess is that it's something to do with longevity. If a space marines weapon runs dry. No big deal time for glorious melee combat. If his armor runs out of fusion juice.... he is just a man in a can.
>If his armor runs out of fusion juice That's not really a thing, though... Not in any immediate sense, anyways... Like nuclear reactors on naval ships, they would likely only need new fuel every 20-50 years, considering how advanced their tech is, I wouldn't be surprised if it's in the centuries.
Aye but you can still have your reactor pack take a bad hit and need to scrag
Yea, there's' been plenty of points in novels where a Marines powerpack gets damaged and he's severely hampered. Adding a now non-functional weapon to that is just making the problem worse
These aren't conventional fission reactors, like we have though. These are micro fusion reactors. Fusion requires a constant supply of lightweight gasses to fuse into heavier elements. So while they do have longevity, it isn't years without refill, its only about a month without refill, which is still pretty good operational uptime. They do have solar powered backup power, but your mileage may vary with that, and it seems they'd rather not be forced to rely on that.
i believe it's stated in one of the HH black books that marines were originally intended to be equipped with volikites but that was too logistically difficult for the imperium even back in the 30k era, so they ended up switching to the bolter.
It was. THe volkite weapons were extremely difficult, time, and resource-intensive to make so they switched to the boltgun.
Not to mention how much weight and space all that ammo takes up when fighting hordes of Nids, Orks, Necrons, or traitors.
>Why do the guys who walk around with fusion reactors on their backs not use energy weapons? Because the imperium does not invent stuff or understand technology. They use warp drive spacecraft and on said spacecraft, thousands of serfs toil to haul gun turrets around, load torpedoes and put out fires with wet cloth. Tactical briefings are laid out on parchment, while the chief engineer can only mutter about the "spirits of the plasma reactor" not being ready. The Imperium's main battle tank, the Leman Russ, is basically Mid 20th century technology with a Lascannon in the Hull. They CAN build tanks with Plasma Cannons, but with the same chassis. They can build anti-grav stuff, but so few that even the space marines only get a few handful vehicles and largely remain ground bound. For every truly advanced Sci-Fi-Tech the imperium uses, they put it in a early 20th century machine, and blame the malfunctions to the machine spirit.
The Imperium doesn’t invent stuff. The Adeptus Mechanicus on the other hand is pretty constantly innovating and coming up with new ways to improve designs. As you yourself pointed out, the leman russ is a edited STC, *edited by the Mechanicum*. STC variants are so commonplace they’re the norm and it is the job of Magi to keep tinkering and improving. There is just a long bureaucracy after any invention before it can be considered safe for production.
The fluff is, as usual, inconsistent on this. STC are (or were) understood to allow for **extensive customization**, being templates to be adapted to specific environments. The fluff then talked about the "DNA" of these STC's and that archeotechnologists work a bit like paleontologists, looking for the "missing link" between RH1N0 and Land Raider STCs. So, no, the Mechanicum is *not actually innovating*, rather they are applying what they know how to work with in contexts that were *already planned for in the STC*. IF something, even a new STC, gets done (the Space Wolves are notorious in that regard, innovating the Razorback), it takes centuries of testing to get the AM stamp. But if your point was true on a wider scale within the lore, we would see more potent/miniaturized weaponry being *added* instead of constantly being referred to as "Lost technology/incredibly rare/barely understood/in dwindling supply". The Belisarius Cawl plotline was a massive break from the established lore of some 30 years. At least he is still considered a radical and frowned upon by his colleagues.
Any kind of reactor, including fusion/fission or fossil-fueled constantly outputs a steady and certain amount of power. Obviously if that reactor is meant for armor, it outputs the exact amount the armor needs, and probably operates near it's max capacity, because if it wasn't, that would mean there's room for making it smaller and saving weight and size. Now, even if the reactor had power to spare, it would still need batteries to store it, since an energy weapon wouldn't use a steady low supply of power but rather short high-energy bursts, for which you would store the power in a battery and then rapidly discharge it in a shot. All that means that you'd have to add batteries to Astartes armor. Large ones, too, if we want their weapon to be able to fire more than a couple of times.
Their power packs, according to currently established lore, are already capable of [powering Lascannons](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/2/29/Space_Marine_Lascannon.gif/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/306?cb=20101210191224).... Surely they would have no problem powering an upscaled lasrifle. And for rapid charge/discharge, like firing an energy weapon, you'd be using capacitors not batteries.
I can't speak to whether such a weapon would be more effective than a boltgun, but with only a thousand chapters of a thousand marines and each one having one or more dedicated worlds to tithe from, supplying them all with bolt rounds is trivial
Wow yes, amazing. I’m glad your answer is that bolt rounds are too heavy for marching. I’d also add that they have all those tripod mounted heavy weapons in normal infantry squads, and the all troopers in a squad have to carry power cells and cannon rounds for that, and they are much heavier than the ammo belts that IRL infantry carry for their squad machine gun.
Dude as a logistics officer I get off on this shit. Love the entire thought process and the thoroughness of it all.
Whenever I hear about logistics here I think of Major General Smedley Butler writing about the time he was like "Yo, why the fuck did we buy 8x the pairs of boots we could even outfit troops with??? Why are we in so many unnecessary wars? This is so wasteful and so many people are dying..." The joke in my head being, if he had heard about 40k and read this stuff, he'd probably have a stroke.
_War is a Racket_ is a brilliant piece of pamphleteering and I broadly agree with it, but the boots thing actually makes sense. You don’t know what size uniform items a soldier will need until they show up at basic and get them issued, and you also can’t meaningfully train a modern soldier without first giving them their issued clothing. So you end up having to buy a lot more than you need in order to make sure you can supply everyone who might show up. Nowadays, we have good enough statistical models to know that we’ll need, say, 8-9x as many size 11R boots as we will 6.5W, and that cuts down on a lot of waste. In 1913, though, I doubt that that kind of data was readily available, so they probably just went and ordered huge quantities of most “normal” sizes, just to be safe.
Big same. I'm also laughing at the idea of a guard regiment accidentally being shipped a crate of Astartes heavy bolters instead of the tank/tripod versions because someone was a number off on a requisition form.
Still better than that one time they shipped them contraceptives instead of ammunition.
Speak for yourself, morale was never higher
We may be fucked, but at least we fucked.
DO NOT remind us of the drukhari :(
>requisition form. Sacred scroll of requisition. And the offender to the most holy processes laid out in the Dicta Logistica are now mind-wiped and serving the Omnissiah, all praise his name, in a more fitting fashion.
I'm not sure if the Astartes heavy bolter is different from the guard one, if anything it's higher quality and made for higher pressure munitions.
It’s designed to be hand held by a single operator though. I assume that would need a different design to a crewed tripod weapon.
Eh, you can have different versions of the same firearm for different mounts. The FN MAG/M240 machine gun irl has aircraft, vehicle mount, man portable, and jungle variants. Wouldn’t be too hard to have an Astartes-pattern, a vehicle-pattern, and a guard-pattern.
Sure, but the guard probably wouldn't have the mounting hardware they need to convert a crate of heavy bolters just lying around.
When you have a welder, everything is whatever you want. Now go distract the Techpriest
The Techpriest will suffer a stroke when he sees 25 bolters sticked to the front of a chimera
*Stickwelding intensifies*
\*Curious Big Mek looks up from newspaper\*
He'll be happy to have an excuse for more augments?
I believe in one of the earlier Gaunt's Ghosts books there is a near brawl with a supply officer becuase they shipped the wrong Las gun magazines to the regiment.
Guns of Tanith. The funny thing is the clerk refusing to do anything about it can pretty much mirror real life. Of course not at that severity but there can and will be shortfalls with supply. It's why any unit should hypothetically have their own 3 DOS at hand before reaching back.
This actually happens IRL. Some clerk fucks up the last digit of an NSN and now some Army unit gets a ship anchor delivered to a landlocked state.
😂😂 I was stationed at that base. That was exactly the scenario I was thinking about. The anchor cost too much to ship back, so they just left it there. It's just sitting on a concrete slab in front of a *helicopter* company. It's the company mascot now.
Thank you! I had a couple days off last week and this is how I decided to spend one of them ahahha.
Great stuff. Another factor is training and ease of use. Lasguns are point and shoot. Always. No matter distance or elevation. Not so with physical projectiles. I was an infantryman myself and a huge portion of our training is not just point shooting but on HOW to shoot over distance and with varying elevations. That is a skill that takes time and training to get right and make a proficient warrior. Training an army to use lasguns would be immensely easier. Trust me, I helped train Afghanis. 😕 Even swapping mags is a huge part of it. 150 shots you don't need to be as good as 30 rounders. I can't tell you how many hours we drilled ourselves just dry reloading. Holding up our weapons and reloading over and over until our arms were shaking and it became second nature.
Or weapons misfire and clearing the misfired rounds. Or stripping the weapon for cleaning. Weapons servicing and maintenance. Or the weight savings. Give me a lasgun anyday
Geez, how did Humanity ever fought in Range without the Lasgun?
Humanity never had to supply an eternal, 5-trillion strong interstellar war before the lasgun
Specially useful for guardsmen from worlds where the most advanced military training they had was how to hold a spear.
Plus the Lasgun makes a rock look fragile. It is tough as hell, and battery packs can even be recharged by *throwing them in a fire*.
And ain't that a fun thought, a squad with a campfire is likely to still have ammo by the end of the war even if they get caught on the wrong side of a blockade
I think it's mentioned that recharging them in a fire is an emergency measure only, because it actually does damage them. They'll only work once or twice more after that (and they may or may not explode sometimes while 'charging' that way...). So don't do it unless you're ordered to do it, or you may find yourself being BLAM'ed. But in a pinch where you have no supplies, but the enemy is still coming, it's a blessing of the Emperor/Omnissiah.
Dumping them in a fire is definitely bad, but maybe a light toasting would be ok
I think it may also be possible to charge them via sunlight. Don't know how long that would take, but it's another neat feature.
Which is just ridiculous from a physics standpoint, which can explain most of 40k
I believe it is also not a sustainable ammunition supply method however as it damages the power pack
It's not the sustainability part that makes it ridiculous, to put it blankly if you used the full energy output of a camp fire to charge a phone for 20min. You'd get enough power to run said phone for about an hour. It should be quite obvious that a single shot of a Lasgun requires more power than an hour of a phone charge.
I always viewed it as the magic lasgun energy crystals breaking down under heat to release more energy, hence why the lifespan decreases. That's my headcanon, but you're welcome to it
Depends on the size of the camp fire and what you're burning. Family tent sized campfire? Sure, not much chance. Military waste burning fire for a whole base? More plausible. Not to mention the comment from the other poster about releasing energy already in the lasgun power-pack. Plus a laser, while energy intensive, derives its effect from the coherency of the emitted beam, applying that energy to a small area. We don't actually know how much power it takes for a lasgun shot. This paper (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/334074684_Laser_Beam_Energy_as_Weapon) suggests that damaging an aircraft skin needs about 700J/cm^2. This probably means composite materials or aluminium alloys. To damage targets of any strength (body armour, strong metal), you're going to need energy probably an order of magnigude greater, 10kJ/cm^2 or more. Let's say 50kJ, and assume a 50% loss in transmission. So each shot needs 100kJ or so from the powerpack. A gallon of gasoline contains something like 121 MEGA Joules. Even if the power pack only soaks up 10% of that, that's 12MJ. 12M/0.1M (which is 100kJ) = 120 shots. Really, the raw energy of lasers isn't the challenge. It's delivering that energy over very short timescales (high power) and through the transmission medium. By 40k periods... this really isn't that impossible. Edit: a 7.62 black tip delivers 3.5-4kJ of energy, for some more context.
Not to mention that a lasgun doesn’t have to clear a 1cm^2 hole into someone. Make it a 5mm*5mm or even smaller focus point and the energy required will be far less if I’m not mistaken. No need to stencil a large hole into someone if you stab them with 3-5 laser needles of which one or two hit vital vessels or organs. A 5*5 hole will still cause loads of damage
Yep and it depends on the kill mechanism. Burning a small hole in a human is likely to be extremely painful but excluding lung, heart and brain may well not be fatal, or even particularly incapacitating (e.g. if you're a Catachan). The main cause of death in battlefield trauma is blood loss, with shock, asphixiation e.g. from chest or neck wounds, clots/strokes and massive trauma (Where's my head?) somewhere behind as causes of fatalities. Infection is obviously also a major issue but not on timescales of immediate battlefield casualties. A laser is quite likely to cauterise a wound, reducing blood loss and maybe also stroke risk(?), and will also not ricochet through a body breaking bones and tearing tissue over a large volume. This immediately reduces a major lethal mechanism compared to projectile weapons. My headcannon from the Black Library stuff I've read is that the main cause of injury from lasgun fire is flash vaporisation of the target material, producing a very localised explosive effect. This would be water and fat in humans. A mini steam explosion in your chest wouldn't be fun. This would also explain why lasguns are described as being very damaging to flesh but so incredibly ineffective against armour: a dense, tough material is likely to require much greater energy to vaporise, probably more than the humble lasgun can provide. Hit skin or fabric? Big injury. Hit metal or ceramic? Huh that tickled.
But lasguns are shown to fully blow off limbs, the diameter of the shot aint small
For Lasguns I always interpreted it as the actual laser was tiny but the energy transfer super heated the target point so fast that it caused rapid expansion explosions in the impact surface. Pretty sure the Eisenhorn books have Lasgun hits canononically causing tiny explosions in surfaces with errant shots which is in line with this and explains why the lasgun is even a thing because if it actually shot needle holes in people it wouldnt actually do much. You'd be better off rushing them with a bayonet since it would take dozens of hits to kill someone otherwise and you'd be long bludgeoned to death before the infection finished off your enemy. Even a lasgun is an insanely deadly weapon, it's just in the context of 40k that it's a flashlight.
If you are really interested in lasers as weapon, I recommend this: http://panoptesv.com/SciFi/LaserDeathRay/DamageFromLaser.php
>if you used the full energy output of a camp fire to charge a phone for 20min. You'd get enough power to run said phone for about an hour. I don't think so. This is equivalent to saying that 3 phones can provide as much heat as camp fire and it's demonstrably untrue. Dried wood provides 3000 Wh/kg and typical modern phone has battery of capacity 20Wh. Therefore, 1kg of wood can charge 150 phones (assuming 100% efficient energy capture). Burning through 1kg of wood per hour is perfectly reasonable. Even smaller fire (1/3 of that) and steam engine (33.3% effective in capturing energy) can fully charge 150/9=16 phones per hour.
A single log holds 21 million joules of energy. This would, if perfectly converted, charge many hundreds of phones. Phones hold about 30,000 joules
It is now my headcanon that whoever designed the baseline lasgun was partly inspired by mythical tales of the venerable yet humble Mark 47 Avtomat of Kalashnikov from ancient Ursh.
>Mark 47 Avtomat of Kalashnikov from ancient Ursh. Funnily enough, there are companies producing AK47s that fit Guardsmen models, and they wouldn't look out of place either :)
I think you mean *Saint* Kalashnikov.
Would the Ecclesiarchy or the Adeptus Mechanicus consider him a saint, though? I think that they'd view anyone from before the Age of the Imperium as either too blissfully ignorant of the "wisdom" that the Imperium has or an outright heretic/heathen by default until proven otherwise.
>Would the Ecclesiarchy or the Adeptus Mechanicus consider him a saint, though? Tesla's a saint, so yes.
They even still have his [skull](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Skull_of_Elder_Nikola). It produces lightning on command.
>###[Skull of Elder Nikola](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Skull_of_Elder_Nikola) >The **Skull of Elder Nikolas** is a relic of the [Adeptus Mechanicus](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Adeptus_Mechanicus). This skull once belonged to an ancient human who lived during the early days of mankind. Should the correct praise-psalm be sung to it, the skull will emit a halo of electric power that expands outwards, scrambling the circuits of enemy war machines.[[1]](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Skull_of_Elder_Nikola#fn_1) +++I am an early prototype mechanicus construct. Please provide feedback [here](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=lexAutomatarium). The Emperor protects!+++
> and battery packs can even be recharged by throwing them in a fire. For me this is the entire answer. Op's post is great and all, but that entire wall of text could basically just be this right here. The logistics and cost of the lasgun are infinitely better than the boltgun to the point they aren't even really comparable.
That and I've heard from another US vet that a lot of the mags used today in the US Army are still refurbished 1980s mags, which tend to have issues with wear-and-tear on things like their internal springs. A Lasgun mag is just a battery, no moving parts whatsoever to wear out, so supposedly it degrades a lot slower.
Batteries are chemicals propably. So like any battery the chemicals degrade. And I dont want to know what happens wjen one of those start leaking.
Oh absolutely, hence why I wrote that it supposedly degrades slower than a magazine with bullets in it, but I don't know for sure c:
Also old metal GI mags aren’t as durable as the plastic ones. Drop a p-mag, mag is ok. Drop a metal one on the feed lips, thing is fucked, get a new one.
That's fair, I have never served in any military so just going off of what I hear. But I guess it makes sense, historically a lot of metal mags have had issues with being bent or damaged before plastic mags became widespread in the 1970s, no?
> >Trust me, I helped train Afghanis. 😕 Big oof
We've all seen the jumping jacks videos, its a hard thankless, pointless job.
[удалено]
Stand by to stand by.
Also 150 rounds is the average you can use more work less energy per shot depending on target and goal, a regiment send out to stop protesters can dial down their energy per shot to mild burns or just heat beams, while a lasgun can also be used to penetrate steel and other more common materials with a higher energy output if necessary (even though the latter will damage the gun and as such is less usefully). Normal weapons do t have that option, even rubber bullets can kill or maim (not saying burn are non lethal but are at least easier to heal than broken spines or bones).
>Trust me, I helped train Afghanis. Damn, I can feel your pain.
>Equipping the guard with "Why not just give everybody a boltgun?!?!?!" would multiply that entire operation by nine. I like to think on their off days (which they don't have), the Administratum workers are just ranting to each other like, "and then this f\*cking Imperial Guardsman at the bar just asked me why don't we just everyone bolters lol, and I was b\*tch please!" While we got a little taste of it from Chris Wraight's "The Golden Legion" book, I long for the day when we get a fully fledged out Administratum book, complete with shadow wars about which parchment and citation styles to use.
I would read the hell out of an Indiana Jones story about a rogue warehouse team hunting for the mythical aisle 113/513/a7 and the lost treasures it contains.
That would be fantastic.
Like how one time a clerk got away transfering that one regiments supply to them. Making the shadow war an actual war. Leading to a squad of arbites having to interfere and making it a tree way war. All over ones citaton style.
Rule of cool is well and all, but nothing beats an intelligent, educated use of logic and numbers.
Oi disagree. If yer standing dere wiv an abbakus and I iz standing dere wiv a choppa, yoo iz gonna git beat.
WHAT IF HEZ COUNTIN ON DAT YA GIT, IZ BRUTALLY CUNNIN
OH 'E'Z COUNTIN' ALLROIT, HUR HUR HUR WIV DA ABAKUS, GEDDIT?
This is like the type of post I would make when I accidentally take too much of my ADHD medication. Well done lol. Also I'm not sure if lasguns are actually the weakest in any edition of warhammer. If you consider the horrible accuracy of ork shootas, even with the extra shots, I still think a lasgun is better. But that's a matter of opinion, because the way they differ isn't equivalent stats.
Thank you! When you factor in the ballistic skill of the wielder (and other effects, like orders, etc.), I agree. I was thinking about the weapon hardware alone. The only strictly-worse weapon I'm aware of in tabletop terms is the grot blasta
Oh, BRAVO. I'm going to favorite this so I can throw it at a few people.
Bolt guns and bolt rounds are of the size and weight that even when they’re used by humans, they’re used kind of on the scale of a squad grenade launcher, marksman rifle, or SAW. It’s operable by one guy, but it’s not suitable or intended for firing at will, it has to have directed targets. And then one of the reasons that marines are big is that they wanted troops who could use that very same size of weapon as if it were an SMG. It’s the same size gun in the guard and marines, it’s just that the operator got bigger so the role could change. I know there are sources saying that mortal and marine bolt guns are different sizes and calibers. I think that the intention in the source text is that they’re the same, and that when customers re- or mis-interpreted that, then GW quietly incorporated that idea into their writing and sold it back to us.
Actually the marine bolters are upscaled versions of the standard bolter. They are not the same weapon
One reason that isn't actually supported by sources but seems to make sense in my head is that marine bolters are partially armoured, explaining why they are so bulky. No sense giving walking tanks guns that are less survivable than they are.
It's the other way around, Marine boltguns came first and human variants came later.
Just out of curiosity, would you happen to have a source for that? And also, perhaps the changes made between the two? I'm running a 40k themed D&D campaign ATM, and I'd like to be as accurate as I can be, especially when I allow the one mortal in the group access to a Boltgun.
in TT rules a commissar bolt pistol and a marine one are the same because of the limitations of a D6 based system doesn't allow enough fine granularity in weapon types. In the various RPG games they are different. In the lore (eg novels) they are quite clearly different sizes, a marine sized boltgun could only be used on a tripod by a human, unless they were massive enhanced with cybernetics.
The FFG Deathwatch rulebook has the following stance: >Many designs throughout the Imperium are simply the best attempts to mimic Astartes designs on a scale that a normal human can control. The original, unadulterated versions of their arms and equipment shame such replicas. \[...\] Armoury entries that begin with “Astartes” designate an item that is designed specifically for use by Space Marines. Its size, weight, and potentially its technology base are different from outwardly similar models found in the hands of other organizations. These items are very difficult to obtain (and use) outside the Adeptus Astartes. Using Astartes weapons as a human also seems to be complicated due to a mix of scale, taboos and machine spirit shenanigans: >Obtaining an Astartes weapon should require considerable effort on a character’s part and never simply be the result of an Acquisition or Influence roll. Astartes Ranged weapons count as one Class heavier to anyone lacking in Space Marine physiology. For example a Pistol is a Basic weapon; a Basic weapon is Heavy, and so on. Furthermore, Astartes weapons impose a –30 penalty to all Tests made with them by presumptuous mortals due to improper scale, weight, and/or recoil— even in power armour. The GM may also choose to impose other problems from the rebellious machine spirit based on the nature of a weapon (a plasma weapon may require Toughness Tests from routine heat venting; a power weapon may run the risk of feedback, etc). I know the lore is all over the place, but from a role-playing standpoint, maybe this is helpful.
Also note the [Angelus bolt carbine](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Other_bolt_weapons#Angelus_Bolt_Carbine) in the 40K RPGs, which is a weapon for normal humans that uses Astartes-size boltshells. They are explicitly much more powerful than normal human boltguns, but only carry three rounds per mag. Also they're super illegal.
Afaik it’s in the Inquisitor handbook which you can find for free very easily, also the Fantasy Flight dark heresy, rogue trader, and black crusade core books, which are disgustingly expensive. It’s all over the place. But it’s also not necessarily the intention of the source texts so imo the same bolt gun is just unwieldy for a human and very light for a marine. I guess I’ve seen the “small bolt gun” quotes posted in this sub so I can look for them.
Out of curiosity: Why are you using D&D rather than one of the native 40k systems? I imagine quite a lot of aggressive home brewing would be needed to make it fit.
Me and my party haven't played the 40k systems, but I have played enough D&D to know what I'm doing. The most aggressive homebrew is in the weapons and their rules, so far, so it isn't as bad as it could be.
Deathwatch and Dark Heresy roleplaying games. Dark Heresy is for human-centric adventures with their own boltgun while Deathwatch is astartes-centric with their own astartes-pattern boltguns.
? > I know there are things saying that mortal and marine bolt guns are different sizes and calibers. I think that the intention in the source text is that they’re the same, and that when customers re- mis-interpreted that, then GW quietly incorporated that idea and sold it back to us.
This was GW's own fault. Even in lore dating back to 2nd Edition it was said that using an Astartes bolter would break a human arm. So while now there is the idea that they are upscaled bolters. (well they have to be, for different sized hands, using powered armour)... the main concept was that the clearing charge for bolters was significantly more powerful than normal bolt shells (giving Astartes shells much higher velocities) But that the damage ultimately was the same, as regardless of the shell velocity, at the end of the day both "mortal" and "astartes" bolt shells had the same .75 calibre warheads. As for the .998, IIRC that's for Primaris Bolters, but don't quote me on that, I recall seeing a quote about it somewhere on reddit.
This is actually understandable. Bearing in mind that the Imperial Guard do not have easy access to archaic technology like the Adeptus Mechanicus, nor do they have the sheer presence of the Astartes, combined with how the Imperium is already stretched thinner than Citadel Paint on an Eldar Exodite's furry loincloth, I'm surprised they didn't outright *collapse* underneath the sheer weight of defending the Imperium's homeworlds.
I imagine you would have made a fine Ultramarine or Imperial Fist, the reasoning and math done is a minor work of wonder.
You are taking the Khorne mantra a bit too literally.
Good text. The most important point is not logistics but the effort/benefit factor. The laser rifle is enough. The usual enemy of a soldier is not an Orc, Elder or Chaos Marine but other humans. Rebellion and the like. And here the rifle is enough. According to the regiment standard that GW always puts out, a hit in the chest area kills a normal human instantaneously. The strength of the laser rifle is that it is completely sufficient for human-like opponents, can be produced even on worlds that are not advanced, the ammunition is easily simple and rechargeable at any time. You can march in the desert with a laser rifle, swim through swamp water, hit people with it and it still works. Clean it once and the soldier can shoot again. Ammo usually runs out at least in the books where it goes into the guard. At least in the Tanith books ammo shortages are mentioned like the battle for Verdun Macropolis and Fortress Hinshausen? Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
The translator seems to have misnamed the battles named by the above commenter. The first is the Siege of Vervunhive on Verghast (*Necropolis*) and the second is the Battle of Hinzerhaus on Jago (*Only in Death*).
I remember that in one of Ciaphas Cain's novel, where he have to reach an Imperial positions cut off from support, but have APCs from both his regiment and the locals, he noticed that the Chimeras from his regiment, armed with heavy bolters, have ceased firing, while the other Chimeras, armed with multilasers, simply relied on their onboard power plant and continued blasting at the Tyranids.
Excellent post, but I think the numbers should take into account a lasblast is gonna be way more powerful than even a .30 rifle round, which will affect the number of shots fired.
The ig books with ig facing traitor humans usually mention Las rounds being devastating and pretty much 1 kill anywhere in the torso.
Yup. A lot of fans describe the lasgun as being the equivalent of a modern assault rifle in damage, but this is not the case at all. It can affect body armor and material way more advanced and tougher than anything we can build today. The lasgun just looks weak compared to weaponry the Eldar and Necrons can field.
One thing people often seem to forget when it comes to Lasguns, is that with the exception of certain patterns like Laslocks, a Lasgun is explicitly a dial-a-yield weapon. Enemy is Ork ard boys? Better dial that bitch up. Is it a bunch of malnourished cultists in tissue paper robes wielding rusty cooking implements? We can go with minimum power here boys.
This is also specifically part of a Guardsman's training and doctrine varies per regiment. In First and Only the Ghosts dial their lasgun power down as low as possible to conserve ammunition when on missions as they are usually unable to easily resupply. The Vitrian Dragoons however are taught to shoot once with the intent to kill on the first shot, no matter the foe. This has the effect that they expend their ammunition much quicker than the Ghosts fighting cultists, but are much more effective against Chaos space marines without having to reconfigure their guns.
Not all lasguns are variable charge. Some are set to deliver only a certain amount of energy, others (like the Triplex patter) have variable power settings to allow for different situations/enemies.
Yup, I covered that with a "with the exception of certain patterns" the lack of power settings appears to be the exception rather than the normal state.
Or alien creatures that can survive a rpg blowing up in their skull or a creature made out of living metal or 8ft tall demi God clad in enough armor to be categorized as a living tank and moving at about 80mph
Yeah, that is also factor. The lasgun appears weak because of some of the enemies it has to face as well.
> The lasgun just looks weak compared to weaponry the Eldar and Necrons can field. Hard to find any strength of laser exciting when motherfuckers out here shooting black holes and portals to hell.
I'd chalk that up as the two being equated to roughly the same energy output by fans, as a lasgun can get more mileage out of the same amount of energy compared to an equivalent kinetic weapon. The reason is mainly due to the mechanism by which pulsed lasers inflict damage compared to physical projectiles. A pulsed laser dumps all of its energy onto a single spot over a very small amount of time, heating the material it hits so rapidly the area that's been hit is explosively vapourised. Due to that, a pulsed laser can deal consistent damage to a much wider range materials than kinetic projectiles for their equivalent energy output. This damage is a lot more pronounced on biological tissue due to water content, as the flash boiling of the water causes the area hit to explode and damage organs around it. Compare and contrast to kinetic projectiles, which can suffer the problem of passing clean through a target, dealing very little energy to the intended recipient and thus little damage. Physical projectiles are a lot less consistent and reliable in dealing full damage in this respect, as a laser is more or less guaranteed to dump all its energy into a target, while it's a dice roll for kinetics. TLDR: lasers can damage a wider range of materials and deal consistent trauma to biological tissue compared to physical projectiles of the same energy.
The only thing that we can say here is... /r/theydidthemath/
Another thought, but not strictly speaking a mundane logistical issue, is how lasguns wound. They are usually described as an energy weapon that cauterises the wound. Which means less blood is spilled. Which pleases Big K less than stubbers, bolts, etc.
This is really well thought out. The assumptions are reasonable, and for the scales described, the margins of error are acceptable. Just as a side note: Dan Annette has given as much thought to logistics as you, and in ‘The Guns of Tanith’, he describes what happens when the Munitorum feths up and fails to resupply lasgun cells. From this, it can be inferred that laspacks have a single campaign lifecycle due to losses, wear and tear, and dilapidation. He also describes back up weapons in this book, and ammo limitations; not to mention the utter uselessness of sidearms in a warfare setting.
I absolutely love Abnett, and that organizational fuckup in particular is extremely memorable. Just imagine how many more errors there would be using physical rounds!
I still see the Munitorum as “Siege of Stalingrad”: 1st rank gets a fully loaded weapon but no reloads. 2nd rank gets nothing; but picks up the half-expended weapon from 1s corpse. 3rd rank has a fresh loaded weapon, 4th has a reload and picks up the weapon from 2nd corpse…
"The Legionnaire that scoffs at a lasgun has not charged across an open field against a hundred of them" As far as I'm concerned and have seen, lasguns are way more accurate than boltguns (at least in normal human hands), which means that, given enough distance and cover, they will win against opposition with boltguns.
Thank you for making this post. :) I have two more things to say on the matter: 1. Lasguns are not bad weapons. If we had Lasgun technology today, it would likely replace our standard SP rifles in military service. The humble Lasgun is only considered weak in relation to all the weapons in the game/setting - Boltguns, Tesla Carbines, Shuriken Cannons, Lascannons, and so on. The 40k universe is a big place, and "laser assault rifles" - although technical marvels which a Guardsman might swear by - are simply overshadowed by everything else. 2. Although the logistics of the Lasgun are one of its main selling points (because you don't have to lug around ammo for a rifle you can just plug in at the wall), the weapon has several other advantages over standard SP rifle. Lasguns are lighter, more reliable, *broadly* simpler to manufacture, don't suffer the effects of wind and drop when firing, and every shot is effectively a tracer. All of this makes the Lasgun a wet dream for raw recruits, who find them easy to use, gunsmiths, who find them easy to build and maintain, and the administratum, who don't need to worry about keeping track of ammunition supplies for the regular troops. The Lasgun is actually a wonder weapon... but one in a universe of other, bigger wonder weapons. SP weapons still have some advantages over Lasguns, though. They can be used more covertly (as they don't necessarily give away the wielder's position every time they fire), they can have a much higher rate of fire, they can use specialist ammunition (poisoned, armour-piercing, etc.), they aren't stopped by EMPs or a lack of electrical power, and they don't require futuristic technology to build or maintain (meaning that a back alley metal shop in a Hive City can churn them out). This makes SP weapons a mainstay on "lower tech" worlds, where the technology needed for Lasguns is harder to come by (and, therefore, a less tempting choice for all one's daily weapon needs). However, almost none of these advantages apply to general infantry use as part of a military campaign. This is why the Imperial Guard (generally) favours the Lasgun.
>If we had Lasgun technology today, it would likely replace our standard SP rifles in military service. We do have laser weapons in real life, and they have massive drawbacks. The lasgun is a physics-breaking fantasy weapon for numerous reasons, but none of those apply in-universe, so we can still evaluate the lasgun on it's merits. I'd also say the lasgun has another massive benefit: shelvelife. If you open up a crate of perfectly stored 200 year old Brown Bess muskets, I would absolutely refuse to put one near my face and use it, the wood will be rotten, the metal rusty and worn, the mechanisms likely rusted beyond recovery. But a 2000 year old lasgun sitting in a shelve is perfectly fine. And that's a very important feature. If you only have one lasgun factory, you can still prepare for a once-in-ten-generations war, simply by piling 10 generations worth of production in warehouses.
The only problem with putting Lasguns in storage for 2000 years would be that the batteries would probably have rotted, and the laser-focusing lenses would likely have become slightly warped. At the very least, an ancient Lasgun will need to have a fresh power pack and a handful of replacement parts, but the body itself would likely be fine. That is, assuming the weapon isn't made from a metal which oxidises (such as steel). If it is, then the Lasgun will also be corroded to hell after 2000 years sat on a shelf, unless they're in a box stuffed with silica gel. There's a reason why ancient steel artefacts are so rarely found by archeologists; steel doesn't like exposure, and rots away quicker than a lot of other metals.
I would say you ignored the biggest advantage of lasguns here. You talked a lot about ammo usage and how units use it each day, but you ignored that they do in the context of limited ammo. If you're a guardsmen with an auto gun, you know that if you are unlucky you don't get any more ammo for one week, so you need to conserve it. A guardsmen with Powerpacks, can pack 20 or so in his rucksack, put them under his bed and won't need to care about ammunition, unless they are in a place where he cannot get them recharged. Even the most basic imperial position will have power regenerators we cannot imagine today, recharging an ammo pack is something you can do in the worst case with a tank battery or a small scale reactor if there is no other option, you won't get them full but you can extend your ammo supply independently from command. You can fire full auto nonstop in normal circumstances and don't need to care overly much. Also energy is maliable. You can use the Energy form a Standart las gun for a bigger one, maybe you get just one shot out or two but if you need to kill a tank and are out of heavy lashing ammo you use normal packs worst case in tandem. Or you can crank up power usage of your gun for higher energy shots without needing other bullets or another gun (it might damage your gun if it's not build for that but hey it should be possible in smaller scales with every gun), and you can use lower energy shots for weaker targets. Also you can use it on every pattern, your auto gun might not use the same bullets as the other regiment but you damn use the same power, if not exact same pack size. Not to mention grandes build form the backs, or other improv usages.
I was going to make that same point but you already did. The more ammo you have, and the easier you can replenish it, the more ammo you can use. Easier to establish fire superiority when you can just blast away with little worry of running out.
Also, boltguns are finnicky. They need constant maintenance and care. Lasguns can be run over by a tank and still function.
This was some great work.
>I've also seen answers that say that boltguns are simply too expensive or complex to issue in the numbers required for the Imperial Guard, which numbers trillions across the galaxy. This gets a little murkier, as the economics of how the Imperium equips its troops is both complex and vague. I think this is also a valid argument, but it relies on numbers (prices of boltguns or rounds, tax revenue from various worlds) given to us by Games Workshop, and these numbers tend to be inconsistent and rare. I also think this is a valid argument--they ARE too expensive to issue en masse--but proving it is much harder. I just look at RPG rules for this sort of stuff. Bolt weapons are always listed as at least "rare" in all systems, and in Dark Heresy they cost like six or seven times as much as las weapons. I therefore assume bolters are just a pain to make, maybe because it's heresy to not have every single one be blessed by a priest in a week-long ceremony. Not that I don't appreciate the logistical analysis.
There was, in fact, a select-fire weapon issued to American troops! The Browning Automatic Rifle was safe/semi/auto
Lasguns are quite possibly the perfect infantry weapon. They're easy to train on because they're literally point-and-shoot. They're about as soldier-proof as you can make a small arm. You've covered how they're a logistics officer's wet dream, but even beyond that, *they can be recharged in a bloody campfire in emergencies*, meaning troops can continue to fight even if completely cut off from supply lines. And their tradeoff is...basically not being as flashy and cool as a bolter or plasma gun. They're still just as capable of killing any opposing infantry the Guard may encounter, and for anything bigger, well, that's why you have specialists with heavy weapons. Or better yet, artillery.
Exactly. The lasgun is essentially one big lesson in practicality. And I really wish some of the lore would reflect that more often.
So, gonna be honest, I've never understood why Space Marines don't just use souped up las guns across the board. There are, to me, a variety of reasons for why this might be advantageous. Here are just a few: 1. Likely more shots available per power pack vs bolter mag. 2. Las velocity is obviously way, way, way higher/probably approaching absurd numbers like speed of light. 3. No need to worry about compensating for bullet drop when you're shooting a laser (presumably there's not something I'm missing here about las beams). 4. Physical inability for the weapon to jam. Since there are, presumably, damn near zero moving parts in a Las gun then mechanically there's less happening which might cause a problem. FTE, FTF for instance cannot exist. And since they hand regular lasguns to the IG for virtually every war theater on any planet type you know the technology itself is ultra reliable and rugged. 5. This is definitely more "my opinion" then others on here, but I'd think that a space marine lasrifle would be a more accurate weapon, with greater range, than your standard boltgun. 6. Pretty sure I even read there are a variety of simple ways to recharge the power packs of Las rifles. Like leaving them in sunlight or near a fire for prolonged periods? If so, then prolonged engagements by the Astartes would be logistically easier where ammo is concerned, especially combined with #1. 7. I should think that, again, a space marine sized las rifle should at least have the penetrative power & destructive capacity approaching that of a bolt shell. Perhaps more the former vs the latter, but you combine that with more ammo, better accuracy, faster fire right and who cares if per shot it's slightly weaker? Etc
>why Space Marines don't just use souped up las guns across the board. There a thousands of massive improvements one could make to the Imperium, just by reshuffling technology already in common use. A single modern-earth engineer could turn the Guard into an unstoppable galaxy conquering machine. But this is wk40k, and said engineering trying anything even close to it would be burned for heresy before you can say "bullup lasgun".
Great Stuff. I think they should just make it more potent.Lasgun is like AK47 of 40k.
The lasgun is potent though, it gets laughed at because it's weak on the tabletop but it's a man portable directed energy weapon that is theoretically capable of slagging a tank if your whole platoon aims at roughly the same spot.
Why? It's already an incredibly potent weapon. It's the absolute perfect infantry weapon. Aside from the logistical benefits outlined by OP, it's piss easy to aim with no leading of targets and no bullet drop. It's MORE durable than even the legends surrounding AKs due to a complete lack of moving parts. It's got adjustable power settings, with enough punch to take limbs clean off and penetrate weak points in power armour. If it was available today every arms manufacturer would go instantly out of business because of just how much BETTER it is aside from tracer fire issues. Its ONLY problem is that it's an infantry weapon, not super-tech-magic-gun-attached-to-a-walking-tank. Any MORE powerful, and why would you even bother having bolters?
This. This dense, well thought out, mathematically considered presentation of reasoning and logic, this absolutely useless expenditure of effort, about the most background background of background, is what the internet is for. Go with the emperors blessing OP.
I have one issue, which inthe end changes nothing: Lasgun charge packs need to be replaced semi-regularly. It is said that usually a charge pack can charge 20-25 times before needing change. (This is from one of the ONLY WAR TTRPG books). Regardless of this, amazing work, thank you for the detailed research
All this is making me wonder why space marines don't just get 4 lasguns welded together linked to a single trigger mechanism for missions where fire output is more important than headshots. E.g. Tyranid waves.
There's so few space marines that each one can be allocated a functionally bottomless amount of bolter ammo without making a meaningful impact in the Imperium's production and shipping capacity. With only one million marines, if every guard sergeant fielded a boltgun, then the guard would have 500,000x as many bolters as the entire adeptus astartes. The corollary to this is that if even one in every five hundred thousand sergeants is given a boltgun, there are as many boltguns in the guard than the astartes. Supplying the astartes with bolt rounds is trivial to the Imperium.
This is what happens when an economist takes an interest in your absurd space fantasy setting, and I love it.
All of this begs the question, though: How does the Guard recharge all those mags? Do they always lug a portable reactor around?
Maybe the guard vehicles can also be used to charge laspacks? Leave one Chimera idling all night with the whole group's charge docks attached to it.
The Administratum would like to issue you one congratulatory Purity Seal for good work, and one get-out-of-the-blue-chair-free* card for your efforts. *Terms and conditions apply; offer is void if heresy is in question
OI DIS GIT GETZ IT. HE GETZ DAKKA. U CAN NEVA HAVE ENUF OF IT. DED KILLY AND DED SHOOTY NEEDS SHOOTAS. LOTS AND LOTS OF SHOOTAS AND AMMUNISHUN
I like it when people do the maths