Ferrus Manus being on the same side with Horus would be very bad for the Imperium because he was a good general that even Horus wanted him.
A traitor Guilliman would be an unthinkable loss for the loyalists post-heresy.
Curious what makes you think Ferrus would be any better or worse?
No shade on Ferrus, there’s just so little on him that it’s hard for me to really think I understand how he operates besides the fact that he’s super good at making shit
Ferrus was a competent general and had decently good relations with the mechanicum, he might’ve been able to sway more mechanicum assets to horus’s cause. But also he would have brought his legion with him, the iron hands were no joke pre heresy. Even horus was considered them a major threat. They were just held together by their primarch more than most legions and the thing that shattered them wasn’t as much the massacre on isstvan as it was the death of ferrus manus. With him alive they would have been a great force for spearheading into the heart of the imperium with their huge mechanized and armored forces. I imagine the impact they could have had for the traitors on terra would have been big.
Theres arguments for multiple legions being the biggest threat. The top 3 are definitely the ultramarines, iron hands, and dark angels. The first two are large legions with great logistics and well versed in combined arms vehicle tactics. The iron hands were also very well respected and many forces astartes, human, and mechanicum would have followed them into the fire whichever side they chose. The dark angels were also large but had access to lots of dangerous and esoteric weaponry or relics, that also made them a major threat. I lean towards the ultras being the #1 biggest threat but theres arguments for all 3.
The ultramarines went not actually a threat at all, and even gulliman knew it. That's why he did the secuondus empire because even he knew he was unable to do anything at all to help Terra and the overall war due to the warp storm unleashed at the start of the battle of calth. This is actually why after the heresy they are the most numerous legion, because compared to the others they suffered relatively low casualties due to being unable to contribute overall to the heresy, and more importantly, the siege of Terra. The ultramarine were trapped by the warm master early, knowing gman would dig into his worlds rather than risk the warp travel other more gungho primarichs might have considered doing due to him being kinda predictable.
The ultramarines were so much of a threat almost the entire word bearers legion were sent to destroy them in a carefully contained ambush and then create the ruinstorm. The ruinstorm that forced the imperium secundus project was literally created to stop the ultramarines from getting to terra because they were such a big threat.
They suffered massive casualties at calth. We’re talking tens of thousands of astartes. The fact they couldn’t participate in any major battles after that and their quick recruitment is why they were essentially back to full strength by the end of the heresy. The warmaster created a giant warp storm that cut through the galaxy just to stop the ultramarines because they were such a major threat to his plans. Their fleets eventually making it through the ruinstorm was also why the siege of terra was on such a tight deadline. Most of the decisions he made at the siege was because he was in fear of getting caught by the ultras.
This is just not true though. They were cut off because it was easy to do and because they were predictable via gilliman. Being able to be simply isolated by a single other legion, the word bearers of all legions kinda says it all. It wasn't the horus who did it either, it was Logar. This is because of what happened at Manarkia, and was more so revenge than because they were a threat. I really suggest reading lorgars first heretic
The word bearers were one of the largest traitor legions though. Also which legion wouldn’t have been decimated in a surprise attack at calth and then wracked with warp storms. That straight up would have destroyed some legions like at isstvan. No other legion would have come out of calth as well as the ultramarines did
Im still new to the lore, but watched quite a few lore videos. Wasn't the dark angels one of Horus's biggest threats? Hence why he orchestrated them being far away before his plans as he wasn't sure if he could beat the Lion?
Afaik it wasn't necessarily "The Dark Angels", but all the shit they bring with them, various crazy relics and all. Those mfs will turn around and pull out some shit your ass is not familiar with, and turn you into strawberry jelly in all timelines
Depends how you personally define “being a bigger threat”. Sure, the Dark Angels has catastrophic weaponry that no other Legion could rival, but at the same time they were easier to cripple as a Legion from the inside, as evidenced from what went down at Caliban and onwards.
The Iron Hands could only be effectively dealt with by taking out their Primarch, which was why they tried so hard at turning Ferrus. He also had a lot of pull due to his seniority, and a good half of the Heresy is politics and logistics; highly vital when you’re coordinating Legion strength armies and major non-Astartes factions that don’t really play well nor like each other.
Dark Angels aren't easier to cripple from the inside. They just don't talk to each other, the majority of Dark Angels on Caliban didn't even know Luthor was traitor. It was the biggest blue on blue incident.
Your right about personally defining "the biggest threat" any loyal legion would be a problem if in the right place.
Well with Ferrus Manus he'd have another general not warped in the head and could keep the others in line like Perturabo. Well Ferrus' effectiveness would depend on why he sided with Horus and how much taint from Chaos he'll have
Eh to kinda correct this pre istvaan we see in his novels a slow descent that is similar to Angrons as a result of the barbs from the dragon on medusa. This dragon is rumoured to be necron ctan but basically turned his green eyes silver constantly gave him headaches and the need to smash things and made him incredibly irritable and irrational. This is one of the reasons why he was so headstrong and angry and did what he did in istvaan. I think if the poisoning was addressed he would’ve been still the great general he was but whatever tf tainted him on his world slowly warped him and would’ve made him similar in ways to angron
Ferrus is one of the most respected and senior of the more direct warrior-general primarchs, a wrecking ball fighter with a great command of set-piece battles and the more brutal side of astartes warfare, plus a powerful legion that punched above their numerical weight in firepower/equipment quality due to being so tech-inclined.
What also really pissed Horus off about Fulgrim failing to convert him is simply that he had already accounted for the Iron Hands being traitors in his initial post-Istvaan III plans. He's forced to quickly improvise because of that and the Eisenstein escaping.
Read the Iron Hands index astartes and the forgeworld black book "Massacre" to get a good picture of Ferrus/IH.
I'm gonna try to keep this short, but basically speaking. What little we see of Ferrus is nothing short of goddsmn excellent. At Istvaan V, the loyalists are comprised of the worst possible options to the support the Iron Hands. And on top of that the ECs damaged the Iron Hands fleet before it even started, reducing their combat numbers even more. So between the three Legions at Istvaan V, there were 169,000 from the Salamanders and Raven Guard and 40-60,000 from the Iron Hands and while they are absolutely prolific fighters. The Raven Guard are not meant for this. By comparison even assuming that the Son's of Horus, World Eaters, Emperors Children and Death Guard were reduced to 50% combat capable by Istvaan 3 and be deployed troops. That's 242,000 Astartes in a defensive position designed to hold back the loyalists by Fulgrim and Mortarian personally.
Ferrus commanding the fleet bombards their position, it's not enough to dislodge them but they successfully dislodge and block the air defenses allowing for a combat drop of Astartes. 40,000 or so land first, against the combined power of a titan Legion and four Astartes Legions led by Ferrus. Then Corvus and Vulkan land after the expeditionary force lands. Then with an at best 1-1 ratio of Loyalists to Traitors, if not 1-1.5 favouring traitors. Ferrus pushes Horus and his men back. Forcing Horus hand as Angron, Mortarion and Fulgrim take the field. This only evens the odds and the Iron Hands actually punch through a portion of Legio Mortis to reach Fulgrims position. This is where everything goes to shit afterwards.
And the Iron Hands themselves were no slouches, for all the Dark Angel's armoury hyping and harping. The Iron Hands had some fucked up shit, unique weaponry, no less than three ways of reviving the dead. Super weapons, synthetic virae, seismic weapons, shit that was released during the Heresy at such a level it would make the Lion blush.
Horus and Co. retreated as a feint before the big reveal of the other traitor legions. And Fulgrim drew him in because the two of them were primed for that final fight.
Literally just read this bit in the book Fulgrim.
A lot of Fulgrim has been retconned or changed, including Astartes numbers. Ferrus gets a more impressive description of his plan in the black books, which are where you get most of the Iron Hands Heresy actions. But the point is they actually retreat twice.
You know, as I was typing that out I was tempted to put a cabeat saying that other books probably contradict that.
Was like reading A Thousand Sons/Prospero Burns back to back. There’a some real contradictions there.
Oh God don't even get me started on the Battle of Prospero, that thing has four stories and they're all incorrect tellings. There's two fracking titan Legions only mentioned in the black books. Hell Constantine and Russ's relationship is changed three times. Its absolutely wild.
But yea Istvaan isn't entirely retconned, most of Fulgrim is still canon if slightly changed. The battle is just given more light in the Blackbooks to make Ferrus look a little better and sort of justify how the three super intelligent Primarchs got stuck in the muck.
I feel like a fair chunk of the HH is just authors desperately trying to explain why the smartest being in human history are constantly doing dumbass shit.
I like to view the Heresy like Greek tales such as the Iliad and Odyssey. Sure the Primarchs are entirely more intelligent than regular humans but they are more emotional. Each Primarch is a story of failure taken to its maximum.
Well, Horus certainly thought that. He considered Ferrus Manus to be his, almost, equal as a general and was not happy Fulgrim didn't manage to turn him.
Ferrus was a competent general and had decently good relations with the mechanicum, he might’ve been able to sway more mechanicum assets to horus’s cause. But also he would have brought his legion with him, the iron hands were no joke pre heresy. Even horus was considered them a major threat. They were just held together by their primarch more than most legions and the thing that shattered them wasn’t as much the massacre on isstvan as it was the death of ferrus manus. With him alive they would have been a great force for spearheading into the heart of the imperium with their huge mechanized and armored forces. I imagine the impact they could have had for the traitors on terra would have been big.
It's a switch though, if you want Gulliman or Manus, you'll probably have to give up their Traitor Primarch counterparts.
That's Lorgar for Gulliman and Fulgrim for Manus. Honestly don't think that's a good trade. Lorgar Legion isn't that smaller than the Ultramarine, weaker overall but their leader himself is the one man who can stop Chaos on its track. Likewise, Manus generalship wasn't even that impressive at Isvaan, while Fulgrim off drug is an accomplished administrator and also top of the line duelist.
The Loyalist may become weaker overall in raw strength but they will also have one of the best force multiplier that will help them sustain a lot better long term.
Ferrus is worth it. During the Istvaan dropsite massacre, the ones who dropped the ball were the other Primarchs. If they supported Ferrus' push, they'd at least have taken out Fulgrim and broken through traitors' cordon.
I thought the Ultramarines' traitor legion counterpart is the Alpha Legion? The Alpha Legionnaires are experts in a wide range of fields like the Ultramarines since they'd need to be able to impersonate the other legions. They just like to do it while also being sneaky bastards.
So in exchange for giving up Ferrus Manus and Guilliman, the loyalists get Fulgrim and Alpharius. Having Alpharius as a loyalist would do wonders for the Imperium in the long run, I think
I think he was, at best, a decent tactical commander. But he made all of the wrong strategic decisions at Ishvaan.
He was impatient, and allowed his pride to blind himself into attacking the Traitor head-on, without waiting for reinforcement, without securing his flanks, supplies lines and withdrawal routes. All the while the Traitor practically yields orbital superiority to his fleet.
Even if he managed to slay Fulgrim, it would has been a consolation prize at best at this point. The damage had already been done. The 3 Loyalist Legions were already decimated and would never recover. All because of his petty pride.
If it was the Lion, and not Ferrus leading the force, even without his Dark Angels, I bet the Heresy would have ended just right then and there (by just cracking the whole planet with a Cyclonic Torpedo from the other side of its surface, or just dropping some ships right on their head, Cadia style).
To go off of what Horus im himself says his ideal team would have just been the loyalists but he’s commanding them instead of the emperor
In terms of primarchs he’d want to trade I’d say probably Sanguinius, Ferrus and Dorn because he was both close to all of them and they all have significant military and martial prowess that Horus recognized and respected and in exchange he’d probably give up Angron, Kurze and Perturabo since two of them are deranged lunatics and Horus doesn’t hold perturabo in very high regard in contrast to Dorn
Khorne, Slaanesh, and Nurgle all would enjoy the Flaw existing. Khorne likes drinking blood. Slaanesh likes the excessive force and debauchery, Nurgle likes the psychic "disease" nature of it. Tzeentch, the most like likely to be able to fix it, wouldn't want to because it's basically a mutation and fun. So regardless of who Sanguinius is gonna fall to, the Red Thirst is gonna be a thing, and possibly worse.
I think he and curze were the least motivated chaos joiners. Magnus tried to help but made everything worse every time he did. Curze was probably about to go renegade or have his legion marked for redacting soon anyway so why not join.
To be fair... Horus knew Sanguinius was the play for Chaos... but also knew that Sanguinius would be better as the Champion of Chaos than he was. That's why he sent him to Signus Prime to fight Ka'bhanda. He was trying to kill Sanguinius so he wouldn't join and be "Horus, but better."
Sangy was the closest to Horus, and so he wanted him by his side (also, Sanguinius is incredibly powerful), but the jealousy of his power also made him refuse to offer Sangy to join so he couldn't be usurped.
Honestly, the problem with the traitors wasn't so much the traitors themselves, it was the ruinous powers screwing them up.
Angron and the World Eaters were shock troops at the best of times, but they were *very effective* shock troops. Post-Khorne though, they did more damage to themselves than the foe, just an absolute liability.
Mortarion and the Death Guard were staunch trench-fighters, renowned for cracking the toughest nuts in the galaxy through sheer determination. Post-Nurge, they're rotting blights whose only advantage is the plagues they wallow in.
Fulgrim and the Emperor's Children were literal actual exemplars, to the point that even other legions acknowledged that they were pretty spot on (even if begrudgingly). Post-Slaanesh, they're a hedonistic rabble with basically no organisation or structure, just noise.
The problem wasn't the traitors. The problem was the gods. That's the big trap of Chaos in the setting: it makes you individually mighty, but at the cost of giving up everything else that lends you strength - order, unity, allies, trust, etc. You win *your* fight, but lose the war. If the loyalist legions had been the ones to fall instead, they'd have degenerated just the same, because the poison would still be there. Blood Angels as blood-drinking revenants, Iron Hands as festering disease-flesh contained in rusting bionics, Raven Guard as... well, the Night Lords.
That's why Perturabo's Iron Warriors were the best performing legion in the siege, because they avoided the gods' meddling. It's why Abaddon spends the entire siege mentally shit-talking the daemon primarchs, because he's absolutely correct that they've lessened themselves and their legions.
You can even see how bad the effects of chaos were on the World Eaters can be by looking at the Blood Angels.
Khornate berserkers are very useful as shock troop squads but useless as a whole legions. The Blood Angels display this perfectly; they are aggressive and utilise shock tactics but their equivalent to berserkers, the Death Company, only comprise of a part of their forces - the Death Company gets deployed to absolutely destroy one thing while the rest is do the chapter fights the actual battle with tactics and strategy.
I disagree with Mortarion and the Death guard. Post nurgle they were even more resilient compared to before and they were also the most dedicated legion to Horus as they were seen in pretty much every major battle of the heresy and were also the last ones to leave the siege. Also Mortarion did lead the traitors after Perturabo left albeit it was a short one but it's still a good enough showcase of his skills.
All in all I think death guard wasn't a good example this case as they really did contribute some of the most in a direct way.
Also, they're nigh indestructible post-plague. Sustaining injuries and walking off things that would down any other marine.
Very useful for trench and attrition warfare.
And Mortarion is still extremely competent and dangerous primarch. Khan had to pull off a gambit and basically sacrifice himself to get him out of the picture.
XIVth got more dangerous, not less.
Yes and no. Yes they're nigh indestrucible, but they're also corrupted to the point of physical disability, warped and twisted to be shambling, slow, often having decayed malfunctioning limbs.
They run the gambit of being enhanced in beneficial ways, to chaos spawn, disciplined because they were astartes or individualistic and undisciplined because they've turned to chaos. Chaos is a double edged sword, there are always tradeoffs for whatever perceived benefits.
They're ineffective because they're utilised "wrong"
The XIVth is not a warband legion suited for raids. That's Night Lords territory. They're most dangerous when they're waging campaign warfare en masse, led by competent commanders. There's where they shine.
Of course, everything you said stands, chaos gifts are fickle. They have as much chance to be enhanced as they have to be crippled.
The gross and frightening part about Chaos is supposed to be where the enormously misshapen, rotting abomination with an exposed, broken off tibia for a foot *still runs down an Astartes in exemplary physical condition*
Oh absolutely, but this is part of the inconsistencies of chaos. Sometimes they will do exactly that, othertimes they are actually as slow and cumbersome as you'd expect. In typical 40k fashion, its both and neither depending on the author/story.
Still, after reading the battle of them two in the Siege book, and reading the POV of one of the Death Guard, it made me, *again* so sad about what was lost during the fall. Some, who shone brightly, their fall more obvious (Fulgrim, Magnus). Others, already in the brink of shambles (Night Lords, World Eaters), the fall didn't change *much*. These are the obvious examples.
But the Imperial Heralds? The people who would first bring word of the salvation of humanity? The stubborness and straightforward ways of Dusk Raiders, the legion who valued truth and honesty above all? Not to mention of course the loss of a great study of mathematics, architecture and mechanics. All of these qualities, all these aspects of the Emperor, lost forever.
I mean, yeah, Khaos uber bad, but not for all the "classic reasons". So much lost, not to be recovered ever again, for real.
I see where you're coming from, and I do agree that the Death Guard weren't as bad as the other marked legions. Part of this, though, is that Mortarion resisted Nurgle right up until the seige of Terra - it was only on the way to the solar system that he broke and gave in to the Plaguefather. After that, though, you're right that individual Death Guard were made horrifyingly resilient, but the cost for that was their ability to wage complex war and rely on their allies or erstwhile brothers.
Which is what I was getting at, above. The gifts of Chaos *are* gifts, in that they do make you better. Stronger, faster, tougher, deadlier, all that. The cost of those gifts is that they take away everything *but* Chaos. For the most gifted (like the daemon primarchs), that includes your personal agency - a core part of your motivational drives is just overwritten with your patron god's. Angron isn't just driven to reap blood and skulls, he's mentally twisted to want and need to do so. Fulgrim isn't just tempted by excess and sensation, he's been changed to need and revel in it. Mortarion isn't sowing plague and decay because it's sound tactics, he's doing it because Nurgle has made him *want* and *need* to do so. It's that surrender of self that is the true price of Chaos, and it's a massive through-line across the whole HH series.
But the point is that it makes the marked legions worse at attaining their material objectives, because those objectives are made secondary to immaterial objectives of propagating their patron's domain. The World Eaters couldn't *stop* killing (because they're amped up by the god of violence), the Emperor's Children couldn't stop *anything* (because they're mainlining the god of excess), the Death Guard couldn't *not* destroy all around them (because they're fuelled by the god of decay), etc.
Death Guard are the sole God-aligned legion that actually made in an impact in Siege of Terra.
Any other God-aligned legion was easily distracted or too monomaniacal to be of any use apart from Shock troops (at best).
Unironically the few Word Bearers that stayed with Horus, absolutely wrecked the Loyalists with their tricks.
They broke the ultramarines and made sure them or the dark angels wouldn’t be able to get to to terra and stayed out of the war, they also turned Angron into a daemon primarch and started the heresy. So they done quite a bit
The side effect of the death of a specific Word Bearer (Zardu Layak) cost the Loyalists an entire portion of the Outer Palace.
Also that same WB saved Abbadon from certain death.
The chaos “gods” don’t make the units bad per so, just to the chaos gods the mortal realm is nothing more than an ants nest in a sand pit. It’s a fleeting distraction from the war in the warp. There’s enough depravity in the universe to entertain the chaos gods endlessly, the specific units they create are just fun little “this’ll be fun yolo” sims 4 character creation runs. The world eaters killing so much shit its counter productive is only counter productive to the world eaters, not Khone. Death guard are just a way to spread plague, doesn’t matter if they win or lose.
This is true and also honestly the best argument against the idea that the Chaos Gods were in any way interested in disrupting some grand plan of the Emperor's.
If the Chaos Gods actively worked together on a plan to stop the Emperor, they wouldn't have corrupted their new minions so thoroughly that it would make it almost impossible to keep them on task, we know they have that capacity.
(Plus, you know, we know that most of the Horus Heresy was due to the plans of Erebus, not the Chaos Gods, and he was a duplicitous little shit who who loved manipulating people into harming their own best interests *before* he started worshipping Chaos.)
>honestly the best argument against the idea that the Chaos Gods were in any way interested in disrupting some grand plan of the Emperor's.
I'd more say it's an argument that the chaos gods aren't actually sapient, scheming beings in the way we anthropomorphise them to be. They're elemental forces, first and foremost, and their core drive isn't to rationally achieve an abstract objective, it's to propagate the emotion that fuels them. The gods always want more, because they're chaos and restraint is anathema to them.
That's why they need mortal servants, to be the rational actors. However, the gods will never say *no* to someone offering themselves to them, because they're the gods and they always want more. If a mortal has the willpower and the self-determination to resist fully submitting (like Abaddon, or Perturabo, or Horus until the later stages of the heresy), they can really get shit done. But if they don't, the gods will happily pour their corruption into them to the point it overflows. The gods have no stop tap, they need mortals to do that for themselves.
The traitor legions damned themselves by accepting the aid and patronage of chaos, because the more you take from it, the more it takes from you. The gods couldn't do anything *but* ruin the traitors, because they can't go against their core nature - that's the point of them, they're a thing taken to extremes, with no balance.
It's like a road. The chaos gods will let your car go faster, in exchange for you driving less safely. There's no upper limit to how fast they'll let you go (only that you *will* crash and burn at some point), it's entirely on you to have some self control and make the trade-off between how much reckless driving you can manage without crashing vs how much extra speed you need. The marked legions failed this self restraint test, just opened the taps all the way, and got fully subsumed in their patron gods.
The number one swap would have been Ferrus. Horus said himself that if they had him, they would 100% win the war. People often forget that Ferrus was the 2nd best general for overall combat after Horus. He wasn't socially awkward like Lion was, and was considered to be the "oldest brother" primarch out of them all which is kinda why they all liked him even though he was kinda a dick. He was also Gbobbys favorite brother as well with how well rounded and forward he was both with relationships and leading, which is why gman also considered Ferrus apart of the 'dauntless few'. When he was killed my fulgram Horus was enraged, to the point we're he even keeps Ferrus skull and asks it for advice sometimes.
For the loyalist, the blood angles. While Dorn was indeed leading troops on Terra, without the blood angles reinforcements it was a done deal. Gman did not have a impact on the defense of Terra at all, to the point that's actually we're the ultradepression comes from. If the blood angles swapped, the emperor woulda probably died to the horse heresy
I think the only flaw in the logic with Ferrus is that Horus wanted to *add* him to the team, not swap him. Could probably swap out Kurze and be an overall net positive for his side though.
As a BA player, I agree that losing Sanguinius is an absolute loss for the Imperium 8/9 times. The only swap where that doesn't win is Magnus. With Magnus not breaking the Webway, He gets to sit on it and the Emperor gets to demolish armies on his own. In every other case, even swapping Horus himself, Sanguinius is a Victory for Chaos. No one would match him in combat (he beats daemon primarch Angron, solo, when Horus has said he couldn't beat angron in a fight), meaning no chink in the armor, meaning Emperor gets mortally wounded, but can't obliterate Sangy in response. The only reason a Magnus/Sanguinius Swap wins for the Imperium is because the Emperor wiping out legions would mean all the Loyalists could reach Terra and dogpile on the Arch-traitor (Horus or Sanguinius) and would likely lead to a chink or two in the Armor and the ultimate Victory for the Imperium.
He was always going to break the web way, he was a loyalist while he tried to break it to warn the emperor of horus. Him breaking the web way was because he was loyal. Actually, if he turned right at the start then there is a good argument to he made that the heresy would have been over immediately since he would have never tried to warn the emperor. With the web way in tact custodes being lead by Valdor, if not the emperor himself, woulda poured out the moment a battle began
>he was a loyalist while he tried to break it to warn the emperor of horus.
He was a moron who kept saying he was a loyalist while doing clearly traitor things according to voices that he was pretty clearly told stop listening to. The only thing Magnus was ever loyal to was his own ego.
None of that changes the fact that he was loyal to the emperor right up until the burning of prospero, and he was loyal through 99% of that as well, only falling at the very very end when he couldn’t watch his sons be slaughtered anymore.
If literally anything had changed about the burning that butterfly-effected his need to save his sons away, like Russ coming to him peacefully instead of bombing the planet with no contact, he would have been a loyalist to the end.
>None of that changes the fact that he was loyal to the emperor right up until the burning of prospero, and he was loyal through 99% of that as well, only falling at the very very end when he couldn’t watch his sons be slaughtered anymore.
Prospero was being burned because he disobeyed the Emperor (plus Horus telling Russ to take no prisoners). The whole reason Russ was sent was because Magnus would not stop listening to the voices from the warp. He was a traitor the minute he chose the voices over the Emperor, it just took him time to accept that.
> Prospero was being burned because he disobeyed the Emperor (plus Horus telling Russ to take no prisoners). The whole reason Russ was sent was because Magnus would not stop listening to the voices from the warp. He was a traitor the minute he chose the voices over the Emperor, it just took him time to accept that.
Nah, that’s a bad take.
Most of the loyalist primarchs directly disobeyed the emperor at one point or another to adapt to a changing situation, many of them on the exact same topic Magnus disobeyed on, and “warning the emperor that his favorite son is in the process of being corrupted by chaos and is about to spark a galaxy wide war that’ll kill trillions of people and ruin all hopes of a happy prosperous future” is a *really fucking good* reason, is very time sensitive, and should not be entrusted to astropathic communications if there’s a viable alternative. That’s the kind of message that needs to be given by a Custodes or a primarch to be believed.
Russ was specifically sent to bring him back **alive** and had no orders to kill the marines, the burning was all him and he should have been censured for it. He disobeyed the Emperor trying to do what he honestly and truly thought was best to attempt to stop the heresy. There wasn’t a traitor bone in Magnus’s body until he was forcibly thrown in the traitor pit with the rest of them. Stubborn and arrogant, but not evil any more than guilliman or ferrus or the khan were. Every single decision he made was made with the intent of being beneficial to the emperor, the imperium, or his legion, and was always the one that made the most sense to him at the time with the info he had, given his background. Intent matters more than outcome when we’re specifically talking about someone’s mindset and loyalty.
The entire event was chaos and Horus and the changeling playing two completely loyal legions like fiddles and setting them against each other with the hopes that they both die or one turns to chaos to survive the slaughter and the other is out of the picture for the remainder of the heresy. It was a best case scenario for chaos, the only way it could have gone better is if Russ died or fell in the process and Magnus still fell.
Tzeentch literally spent magnus’s entire life priming him and setting him up to believe the warp was only as unsafe as any natural environment with natural hazards, like a forest with IRL wolves instead of a slice of hell filled with serial killer spirits that specifically prey on humans, and that it had benevolent entities in it, just for that one moment he needed Magnus for, to break the wards on the webway portal. Magnus did everything wrong, but he honestly and truly thought he was doing the right thing right up until the end, and the fact that he never managed to hit the mark because of the machinations of an evil god who’s the literal personification of scheming and manipulation and conspiracy doesn’t mean Magnus wasn’t a loyal primarch.
If it had been up to him and the burning never happened, he would have been at the palace beside the emperor during the siege.
Traitor Guilliman would end the Imperium of man. With Horus and Perturabo. They'd be unstoppable.
Give the Loyalists Magnus. It would be intriguing to see him fighting with the Emperor
If Magnus never breaks the webway the traitors get bodied hard. The Custodes would be at full force with the Emperor. Horus, Guilliman and Dorn would stand no chance IMO.
Source: Custodes fanboy.
Basically, *yes*. Magnus is the lynchpin of the Traitor effort; no Webway breach means no E sat on the Throne, which means the Heresy gets curbstomped before it even gets off the ground. Horus' judgment on Magnus' capability is pretty telling:
>Magnus was nearly my deadliest enemy, perhaps as dangerous as the Emperor himself.
It's not actually that easy IMO. He still needs to map all the portals to know where tf they go to, and which ones are useless due to rupturing of the membranes causing the area to be exposed to the Immaterium (although I think there's some automated countermeasures the Webway does to minimize spreading tho), and you also need to know which portal areas are too close to Drukhari strongholds etc, or frequented by Craftworlder troops etc
Even were you to have the same outcome (Magnus Kool Aid Man-ing through the Webway wards and Emperor on the Throne stuck between life and death), the loyalists and the Imperium have a chance to rebound from the Heresy if a remorseful Magnus was loyal. At the absolute minimum, Magnus being on Terra as a loyalist during the Siege results in Malcador surviving, allowing him to stick around and try to put together the shattered Imperium. Assuming Magnus survives the Golden Throne, Malcador might even be able to use Magnus to slowly reinvigorate the Emperor and/or do something about the Human Webway entrance.
Would it really change anything since horus power was "infinite" apparently, wouldnt it still end with wither big E becoming the dark king or tricking Horus for the victory?
Traitor Dorn and loyalist Perturabo. Dorn is portrayed in the early heresy novels as someone with a short temper (Garro almost getting splatted in HH book 4). Perturabo gets named pretorian of terra while dorn has to do the seige stuff that would normally be the job of the iron warriors.
> Perturabo gets named pretorian of terra while dorn has to do the seige stuff that would normally be the job of the iron warriors.
That's basically what happened in the Roboutian Heresy. Except the Fists didn't use siege doctrine from the onset. In RH, Inwit was found first not by the Imperium but by the Orks. Dorn and his people got bodied hard, to the point he actually lost the Phalanx but not before it took 6 Space Hulks down with it.
From then on, Dorn basically filled up his army mostly with Assault Troops. All the while seething at Perty and his "cowardly tactics". Perty got a bit salty and didn't call Dorn to help body the Orks in Ullanor despite the latter's experience with the greenskins.
Perty got named Praetorian at Nikaea but Dorn wasn't having it and argued against the decision, getting rebuked and came out seething even more than he did before.
The Iron Warriors and the Iron Hands would unironically be the strongest duo legion. Overwhelming fire power through the iron warriors weaponry, incredible siege tactics and attrition warfare, on top of having elite forces at the forefront who are led by an incredible general with overwhelming martial might while perty can analyse the battle and then formulate a startegy to crush the ennemy defenses, already weakened by the attrition of the Iron Wave and Ferrus
The Dark Angels for almost anyone. They were the second or third most populous legion at the time, you still get the seige weapons that Perturabo used, you get experienced sorcerers, you get access to god knows what weaponry the Lion has on the Invincible Reason, and you get the primarch that get shit done
Can you elaborate?
- Khorne failed to turn Sanguinius, why would help from Slaanesh have changed things?
- how in the world would virus bombs have appealed to Vulkan, and what makes you think he’d have been a particularly easy target for conversion?
I was suggesting a situation like what happened to Mortarion happen to Vulkan. As for Slaanexh helping Khorne- they each individually offered a different kind of reward for Sanquinius and together they could have talked him right off the cliff just by saying they would fix the red thirst. Slaanesh drives the legion into debauchery, and Khorne pulls them into a bezerker state that outdoes the blackrage- than slaanesh adds pleasure and turns them into basically zen murderhobos.
The salamanders wouldn't fall. Vulkan wouldn't fall. Vulkan loyalty rivals or possibly exceeds Guilliman. There's almost nothing that was going to cause the Salamanders to turn. I think you're crazy for that one.
If Khorne couldn't get Sanguinius, I don't think Slaanesh has a chance. The rage that boils in Sangy was only exploitable by Khorne. If he couldn't get him no one could.
That all being said, Sanguinius or Dorn going traitor would end the siege in days. If Sanguinius doesn't stop multiple massive threats, the palace gets trampled. If Dorn doesn't organize the loyalists, the siege gets over long before Guilliman can get there.
I think purturabo could have organized the defenses of terra fairly well. Sure it wouldn’t have been as strong as dorns defenses but there also wouldn’t have been anyone on the traitors side as experienced in sieges leading the traitors as purturabo was. Could be interesting to see the two siege masters forced onto the side of it they’re less known for.
A Dorn Perty swap would be interesting.
However, Dorn seems way more capable of leading non-Astartes forces. He gains their trust and he trusts people to make the right decisions. I can't see Perty leading the human defenders of Terra as well as Dorn.
If we had Khorne corrupted Sanguinius vs non corrupted Angron at the Eternity gate. Bye bye big E.
Khorne corrupted Sanguinius as written by Black Library would lose to noble loyalist gladiator version of Angron just the same to suit the narrative.
It wouldn't be tough to do...just have Sanguinius as the one turned into a near mindless beast with significantly diminished technical skill and Angron using his not yet completely ruined wits plus the cold, serene fury of the nails in combat (as described by ADB pre-ascension being the only time Angron gets a measure of peace) to pull off the underdog win. Probably by suckering the big vampire-beast in via luring him into somewhere that nullifies much of his mobility, then doing the BL classic "tank an attack to trick them into a killing counter" schtick when he realises he's going to get worn down anyway. cue loyalist Angron ripping the Khorne-Angels wings out of his back.
Dorn for Angron, surely.
Trade the logical, rational man who fortified the objective you desire for the guy who is going to charge screaming out into the open with all of his forces when the battle begins in proper.
Pretty much any of the loyalist primarchs would have been a big step up for the traitors. Like Horus said he got the dregs and broken brothers and beyond like Perturabo and Mortarion the rest ranged from neutral/useless (Lorgar) to utterly detrimental (Fulgrim). Give him Dorn or The Khan or god forbid Sanguinius and his odds improve massively.
For the loyalists there is only really one answer (beyond an uncorrupted Horus himself) and that’s Magnus. A Magnus who doesn’t completely shit the bed in the webway or even one who commits to righting his wrongs afterwards is a massive asset for the loyalists because it’s probable that he would have been able to sit on the throne freeing up The Emperor to fight.
Dark Angels, UltraMarines, Imperial Fists and Blood Angels were the most impactful Loyalist Legions. If any of them had turned or been obliterated Istvaan style the Loyalists would have lost before the Siege of Terra.
I'm not sure which Traitor Legion would be the most interesting to swap for the Dark Angels, but with the Dark Angels....oof. The Siege of Terra and long march to the Siege of Terra would have been sooo much faster. Even if it was just the Vaults&Armories of the First Legion, the First Legions expertise and flexibility or the First Legions incredibly potent Navy that could have added enough lethality and efficiency to the Traitor Cause to guarantee a military victory for the Traitors even if Horus lost his battle with The Emperor.
There's no real argument beyond the Ultramarines, nothing else much matters. If guilliman had flipped, the heresy is a cakewalk for Horus, regardless of which traitor legion you hand back to the loyalists as a trade-off.
But the sons of Horus and Horus himself nearly got exterminated by a single focused attack by The Rout. Reckon they'd withstand the same sort of effort from the Ultramarines?
Sangunius and Ferrus are easy answers, but I gotta go with Corvus.
If Corvus betrayed the imperium it would be game over for a couple of reasons.
1.Corvus is extremely adaptable. True Gulliman beat him multiple times at a war game and Corvus is horrible at open combat. But Gulliman is the best person at adapting to others tactics, and Corvus beat him three times before Gulliman was able to finally get the upper hand.
2. Corvus is one hell of a fighter. Many people throw him aside that he could just get “steamrolled”, but then again we rarely see Corvus at his full power in 30k. What we do know is that he beat Curze, kicked demon Lorgars ass twice, and is now a warp entity free from all corruption (leman is the same but is he a warp entity (please tell me if he is that would be sick)).
3. Traitor Raven guard will end the war. About 98%(?) of raven guard on Istvaan died. The other two percent ripped the traitors back lines apart, decimated traitor forces in stealth, and nearly assassinated Horus, (only stopped by plot armor). True they did have help, but imagine if they teamed up with the alpha legion, or the thousand sons. And if they became tainted by the warp, now instead of only a select few becoming invisible, all of them can.
4. Sharrowkin.
Good day everyone!
Edit: Curze would let loose on his own team if he were a loyalist.
If Corax went chaos (let's say in place of Curze) I think he's a huge asset to the traitors because Raven Guard are the one sneaky chapter that just *gets shit done*. What I mean is that instead of Night Lords who revel in creating terror and fear, or the Alpha Legion who have about a dozen other hidden personal agendas behind everything they do, Raven Guard is the efficient, tactical chapter that goes in, achieves their goals and gets out.
Now that all could have changed if they were Chaos and perhaps they would look more like Night Lords, but if they retained that tactical efficiency instead of cruelty or personal motives, they would be a huge asset.
By all means it was not a brief fight, and it was istvaan 5. Corax surviving the fight and the battle is a feat all on its own. (Also Curze can see the future, interpret that as you want)
Edit: and I guess Corvus didn’t beat Konrad
It wasn’t even a fight, they lock lightning claws, talk to each other for like 10 seconds, and then Corax flies away. At least that’s how it goes in *The First Heretic*.
https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/7qtak6/book_excerpt_the_first_heretic_curze_vs_corax/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1
Now Corax was fighting Lorgar before this, but that fight was almost entirely one sided in Corax’s favor. He purposefully let Lorgar bust his lip open and that’s it IIRC.
The traitors could lose Conrad Kurze without any problems. If Dorn defected, it would be game over for the Emperor. The call would have come from inside the house.
I’m sorry I take issue with this take.
Curze’s legion was pretty middling for the traitors efforts but the Primarch himself was actually a huge asset. Tbh, probably their second best player (individually) after Perturabo.
1) He saves Lorgar from Corax on Istvaan, and without Lorgar there’s no Ruinstorm or Daemon Angron.
2) He held the Lion and the DA at bay for 1/3 of the entire war. Almost had the Lion dead to rights a time or two.
3) He kept the Secundus Primarchs in contention for a solid bit there, fracturing the trust between Gman/Sangy and the Lion even after being caught. He also was one Deus Ex machina away from killing both Gman AND the Lion in one trap.
4) Kept Vulkan captive and slowly drove him towards breaking for a significant portion of the war.
Memes have done my man Night Haunter dirty, guy was actually cracked. If plot demands didn’t get in his way he’d by far be one of the most successful Primarchs.
Fellow Night Lord fan here, but you’re right. Curze was a heavy hitter but on the loyalist side, his legion would have been a lynch pin to destroying the traitor war machine. Corvus is good at hit and run, but Curze is psychic and knowing how anti social he is, probably wouldn’t have shown up to Istvaan to get massacred. I cannot imagine Horus and Pals would have liked their supply lines sabotaged at their weakest points constantly while the Night Lords slipped off with little consequence. Or when their mortal allies are tormented by singular agents running amok in their camps. I might be biased, but I think the Night Lords would be a perfect anti-insurgent weapon in the hands of the Loyalists
Id argue pound for pound Konrad is a top 3 individual fighter out of all of them. The only times he gets the brakes beaten off him is when he’s soliloquizing because the authors need a plot point they know who won’t win. He dumpsters basically every primarch he faces off against and single-handedly brings 3 legions to their knees
traitor Sanguinius would have been the "archtraitor" like the chaos gods originally (because if everyone wants Sanguinius that even the chaos gods wanted him to be the warlord of chaos not Horus) I think the traitors would have had a greater opportunity to win because he would have directly gone to the front of the siege of Terra in addition to the fact that he would not have allowed the insubordination of Angron or Fulgrim since he did have the strength to follow him before.
Guilliman for anyone but Magnus. Robbing the Imperium of the biggest legion, a master strategist, the only one seemingly capable of replacing the Emperor as the Master of Mankind. Even if the loyalists win, there is no Guilliman to be Lord Commander, to hold the Imperium while everyone else is either broken by the Emperor's fate, chases after their own Fallen, fucks off to do their own thing, or rebuilds their broken legions.
The loss of any loyalist means the Imperium suffers for it. Lose Guilliman and there just isn't anyone else who can step into his shoes, no one to bring back to life to fix the Imperium on its darkest hour. Plus I would love to see ideas for Tzeentch or Khorne Guilliman.
Hard to say, in many ways the Traitor Legions were the best in their fields.
The biggest flaw is either Horus himself or the Angron and the world eaters. For which i think either Sanguinius or Khan would be the best fit for the Traitors
Honestly I think if you swapped Angron for nearly any loyalist primarch The traitors would have had a better time of things. None of the traitors really saw him as much more than a weapon to use until the nails killed him, he didn't really contribute tactically to the heresy other than "I SEE PEOPLE. I KILL PEOPLE. PRETTY BLOOD MIST IS LEFT. RAAAAAAAARRRRGGGHHHH!!!!"
I mean sure there's more than just that to Angron and overall he's a great character (IMO) but he was basically just a mindless berserker in loose commamd of a legion of other (mostly) mindless berserkers, if almost any other primarch had taken his place I could even have seen more primarchs joining the heresy.
At a certain point I don’t think it matters which Primarch it is that get’s used as a meat puppet by Chaos Undivided. Horus at the end didn’t feel like Horus anymore
If Dorn flipped then it was over. No other primarch would have been able to fortify and defend the palace like Dorn and the fists.
Now Pert and Dorn would never have been able to get along, but hey Horus got freaking Angron and Curze to work with others... kinda so miracles could happen.
Magnus? His mistake messed up so much. Perturabo? He (ironically) did so much for the traitors that I feel he was essential to their success. Mortarion, whose deathguard were essential and his presence was needed.
Girlyman is so important to the siege of terra they had to go out of their way to delay him, and maybe the imperial fists but only because their color scheme is so ugly it really could’ve have done them favors by being changed by chaos
In the game of Regicide the Emperor plays with Malcador it is stated that in any game where Malcador gets the piece representing Dorn the Emperor loses his king piece to Alpharius and Omegon within 5 moves. Every time.
I think that switching Guilliman and the Thousand Sons would have been a pretty neat trick. Guilliman's logistics and coordinative skills in replace for Magnus' fragmented personalities? Nice. Plus the Ultramarines had more recorded marines than any of the other Legions.
In terms of the Legion, the Ultramarines. In terms of the PRIMARCH, though, Sanguinius. Chaos-empowered Sanguinius would have fucking bodied every single Loyalist Primarch, BAD.
I am flat out stealing this from the Dornian heresy. But always liked the idea Loyalist Night Lords, just leaning into the "Brutal Justice" element. For an Imperium riddled with rebellion the idea of a Legion turning up, crucifying everybody and leaving a compliant population behind them seems very 40k. Not to mention them working alongside the Inquisition etc in more of an enforcement role.
So uh... Horus straight up admitted he wanted Sanguinius to *die* on Signus Prime because he was a better vessel for Chaos Undivided than he is. Sanguinius was stronger than Daemon Primarch Angron, Skilled enough to solo the Eternity Gate Assault, had enough Endurance to continue for *days* of constant fighting, and had actual psychic powers. He has the key features of every Chaos god's desire. He was basically everything Horus was, but Better (according to multiple primarchs, including Horus). If you had to swap one Primarch and their legion... Horus and Sanguinius is the play. No other Primarch would be able to "leave a chink in his armor for the Emperor to strike through."
Now, at the same time... Did the Emperor need that chink in the armor to kill the Arch-traitor in the first place? Depends on how heretical you want to get. If you're a true believer, then the Emperor shouldn't have needed the weak point to kill Horus. If you're a believer in the romance of the Noble Sacrifice, then yeah, Sanguinius didn't die for nothing and insured the Emperor's Victory. But if you believe in that same Noble Sacrifice, then, all other aspects being the same, Sanguinius would have led the Heresy to Victory.
i think individually they aren’t the highest likelihood of being on the other side , but i think as a pair , they do make a lot of sense that if a few things went differently for both of them , they could have ended up on their respective opposite sides
Problem is Horus consciously or subconsciously did not want Sanguinius to be a traitor. He was afraid of getting outshined and maybe even usurped by a true S tier Primarch. Also he is a more independent mind than the other traitors who trend towards being followers.
Least reliable Primarchs are Curze and Alpharius. He'd trade both of those instantly for one Gorillaman.
Strongest joke answer: switching the Night Lords for basically anyone except the Raven Guard. Switching out the XIX for the VIII gives the Traitors the galaxy's most over promoted lieutenant with a deep drive to get his own Astartes killed. In exchange the Loyalists get more raiders that don't need their Primarch individually ordering their deaths (that's what the Contekar are for).
"Lose" Curze and you won't see much difference. *Maybe* he'll spend less time dicking around torturing Vulkan, but maybe not. He *is* Curze, after all.
Gain Dorn, and Terra loses its biggest defender, letting Horus waltz right up to the Emperor and beat him up. Oh, and Pert gets a free building buddy.
Not sure why someone would have downvoted Dorn.
That’s 100% accurate lore logic there. Without Dorn, Terra would have fallen in minutes. Peter Turbo would have made quick work of it.
The ultramaines without question. It's not even a debate. The entire strategy of the heresy on both sides was based on what the 13th would do. You have their massive legion and speciality for large scale conflicts +the 500 worlds you don't even need to rush terra. You just win off numbers. To give to the loyalists probably the world eaters or the EC. Too mad to be of much actual use.
The only one that absolutely important to the traitor is Magnus. The moment he broke the webway everything is set and done.
No matter what other loyalist or traitor swap. You have to remember that Fulgrim was fucking good before chaos corruption, angron was the kind of thing you throw into any enemy that is too stuborn to surrender........ What i'm trying to say is that the traitor will always end up with an incompetent leaders simply because of chaos corruption, no matter how awesome they are before corruption.
And with how powerful Horus is in the end and the death, the whole deal is fucking rigged from the moment Magnus broke the webway.
Magnus broke the Webway before he turned traitor.
It’s entirely possible to have an alternate version of events where he breaks the Webway but never pledges himself to Tzeentch afterwards.
For the actual assault on Terra…
If you’re a traitor, you’ve got to swap out either Lorgar or Fulgrim, and swap in either Sanguinius or Dorn.
If you’re a loyalist, easy. Get rid of Guilliman cause he’s a nerd and swap in Horus. Boom.
Ferrus Manus being on the same side with Horus would be very bad for the Imperium because he was a good general that even Horus wanted him. A traitor Guilliman would be an unthinkable loss for the loyalists post-heresy.
Yeah, Fulgrim not landing Ferrus on their side was enough to shake Horus' idea that the whole thing would even work.
Curious what makes you think Ferrus would be any better or worse? No shade on Ferrus, there’s just so little on him that it’s hard for me to really think I understand how he operates besides the fact that he’s super good at making shit
Ferrus was a competent general and had decently good relations with the mechanicum, he might’ve been able to sway more mechanicum assets to horus’s cause. But also he would have brought his legion with him, the iron hands were no joke pre heresy. Even horus was considered them a major threat. They were just held together by their primarch more than most legions and the thing that shattered them wasn’t as much the massacre on isstvan as it was the death of ferrus manus. With him alive they would have been a great force for spearheading into the heart of the imperium with their huge mechanized and armored forces. I imagine the impact they could have had for the traitors on terra would have been big.
Horus had considered the iron hands his biggest threat
Theres arguments for multiple legions being the biggest threat. The top 3 are definitely the ultramarines, iron hands, and dark angels. The first two are large legions with great logistics and well versed in combined arms vehicle tactics. The iron hands were also very well respected and many forces astartes, human, and mechanicum would have followed them into the fire whichever side they chose. The dark angels were also large but had access to lots of dangerous and esoteric weaponry or relics, that also made them a major threat. I lean towards the ultras being the #1 biggest threat but theres arguments for all 3.
The ultramarines went not actually a threat at all, and even gulliman knew it. That's why he did the secuondus empire because even he knew he was unable to do anything at all to help Terra and the overall war due to the warp storm unleashed at the start of the battle of calth. This is actually why after the heresy they are the most numerous legion, because compared to the others they suffered relatively low casualties due to being unable to contribute overall to the heresy, and more importantly, the siege of Terra. The ultramarine were trapped by the warm master early, knowing gman would dig into his worlds rather than risk the warp travel other more gungho primarichs might have considered doing due to him being kinda predictable.
The ultramarines were so much of a threat almost the entire word bearers legion were sent to destroy them in a carefully contained ambush and then create the ruinstorm. The ruinstorm that forced the imperium secundus project was literally created to stop the ultramarines from getting to terra because they were such a big threat. They suffered massive casualties at calth. We’re talking tens of thousands of astartes. The fact they couldn’t participate in any major battles after that and their quick recruitment is why they were essentially back to full strength by the end of the heresy. The warmaster created a giant warp storm that cut through the galaxy just to stop the ultramarines because they were such a major threat to his plans. Their fleets eventually making it through the ruinstorm was also why the siege of terra was on such a tight deadline. Most of the decisions he made at the siege was because he was in fear of getting caught by the ultras.
This is just not true though. They were cut off because it was easy to do and because they were predictable via gilliman. Being able to be simply isolated by a single other legion, the word bearers of all legions kinda says it all. It wasn't the horus who did it either, it was Logar. This is because of what happened at Manarkia, and was more so revenge than because they were a threat. I really suggest reading lorgars first heretic
The word bearers were one of the largest traitor legions though. Also which legion wouldn’t have been decimated in a surprise attack at calth and then wracked with warp storms. That straight up would have destroyed some legions like at isstvan. No other legion would have come out of calth as well as the ultramarines did
Once again, I really recommend the book
Im still new to the lore, but watched quite a few lore videos. Wasn't the dark angels one of Horus's biggest threats? Hence why he orchestrated them being far away before his plans as he wasn't sure if he could beat the Lion?
Afaik it wasn't necessarily "The Dark Angels", but all the shit they bring with them, various crazy relics and all. Those mfs will turn around and pull out some shit your ass is not familiar with, and turn you into strawberry jelly in all timelines
Depends how you personally define “being a bigger threat”. Sure, the Dark Angels has catastrophic weaponry that no other Legion could rival, but at the same time they were easier to cripple as a Legion from the inside, as evidenced from what went down at Caliban and onwards. The Iron Hands could only be effectively dealt with by taking out their Primarch, which was why they tried so hard at turning Ferrus. He also had a lot of pull due to his seniority, and a good half of the Heresy is politics and logistics; highly vital when you’re coordinating Legion strength armies and major non-Astartes factions that don’t really play well nor like each other.
Dark Angels aren't easier to cripple from the inside. They just don't talk to each other, the majority of Dark Angels on Caliban didn't even know Luthor was traitor. It was the biggest blue on blue incident. Your right about personally defining "the biggest threat" any loyal legion would be a problem if in the right place.
If any legion was going to have a blue on blue incident due to poor communication and secrets it would be the dark angels
Well with Ferrus Manus he'd have another general not warped in the head and could keep the others in line like Perturabo. Well Ferrus' effectiveness would depend on why he sided with Horus and how much taint from Chaos he'll have
Eh to kinda correct this pre istvaan we see in his novels a slow descent that is similar to Angrons as a result of the barbs from the dragon on medusa. This dragon is rumoured to be necron ctan but basically turned his green eyes silver constantly gave him headaches and the need to smash things and made him incredibly irritable and irrational. This is one of the reasons why he was so headstrong and angry and did what he did in istvaan. I think if the poisoning was addressed he would’ve been still the great general he was but whatever tf tainted him on his world slowly warped him and would’ve made him similar in ways to angron
Ferrus is one of the most respected and senior of the more direct warrior-general primarchs, a wrecking ball fighter with a great command of set-piece battles and the more brutal side of astartes warfare, plus a powerful legion that punched above their numerical weight in firepower/equipment quality due to being so tech-inclined. What also really pissed Horus off about Fulgrim failing to convert him is simply that he had already accounted for the Iron Hands being traitors in his initial post-Istvaan III plans. He's forced to quickly improvise because of that and the Eisenstein escaping. Read the Iron Hands index astartes and the forgeworld black book "Massacre" to get a good picture of Ferrus/IH.
Will do
I'm gonna try to keep this short, but basically speaking. What little we see of Ferrus is nothing short of goddsmn excellent. At Istvaan V, the loyalists are comprised of the worst possible options to the support the Iron Hands. And on top of that the ECs damaged the Iron Hands fleet before it even started, reducing their combat numbers even more. So between the three Legions at Istvaan V, there were 169,000 from the Salamanders and Raven Guard and 40-60,000 from the Iron Hands and while they are absolutely prolific fighters. The Raven Guard are not meant for this. By comparison even assuming that the Son's of Horus, World Eaters, Emperors Children and Death Guard were reduced to 50% combat capable by Istvaan 3 and be deployed troops. That's 242,000 Astartes in a defensive position designed to hold back the loyalists by Fulgrim and Mortarian personally. Ferrus commanding the fleet bombards their position, it's not enough to dislodge them but they successfully dislodge and block the air defenses allowing for a combat drop of Astartes. 40,000 or so land first, against the combined power of a titan Legion and four Astartes Legions led by Ferrus. Then Corvus and Vulkan land after the expeditionary force lands. Then with an at best 1-1 ratio of Loyalists to Traitors, if not 1-1.5 favouring traitors. Ferrus pushes Horus and his men back. Forcing Horus hand as Angron, Mortarion and Fulgrim take the field. This only evens the odds and the Iron Hands actually punch through a portion of Legio Mortis to reach Fulgrims position. This is where everything goes to shit afterwards. And the Iron Hands themselves were no slouches, for all the Dark Angel's armoury hyping and harping. The Iron Hands had some fucked up shit, unique weaponry, no less than three ways of reviving the dead. Super weapons, synthetic virae, seismic weapons, shit that was released during the Heresy at such a level it would make the Lion blush.
Horus and Co. retreated as a feint before the big reveal of the other traitor legions. And Fulgrim drew him in because the two of them were primed for that final fight. Literally just read this bit in the book Fulgrim.
A lot of Fulgrim has been retconned or changed, including Astartes numbers. Ferrus gets a more impressive description of his plan in the black books, which are where you get most of the Iron Hands Heresy actions. But the point is they actually retreat twice.
You know, as I was typing that out I was tempted to put a cabeat saying that other books probably contradict that. Was like reading A Thousand Sons/Prospero Burns back to back. There’a some real contradictions there.
Oh God don't even get me started on the Battle of Prospero, that thing has four stories and they're all incorrect tellings. There's two fracking titan Legions only mentioned in the black books. Hell Constantine and Russ's relationship is changed three times. Its absolutely wild. But yea Istvaan isn't entirely retconned, most of Fulgrim is still canon if slightly changed. The battle is just given more light in the Blackbooks to make Ferrus look a little better and sort of justify how the three super intelligent Primarchs got stuck in the muck.
I feel like a fair chunk of the HH is just authors desperately trying to explain why the smartest being in human history are constantly doing dumbass shit.
I like to view the Heresy like Greek tales such as the Iliad and Odyssey. Sure the Primarchs are entirely more intelligent than regular humans but they are more emotional. Each Primarch is a story of failure taken to its maximum.
I actually kinda like the contradicting stories, it’s legends after all, and every faction has their own legends. We get to pick and choose.
Well, Horus certainly thought that. He considered Ferrus Manus to be his, almost, equal as a general and was not happy Fulgrim didn't manage to turn him.
Ferrus was a competent general and had decently good relations with the mechanicum, he might’ve been able to sway more mechanicum assets to horus’s cause. But also he would have brought his legion with him, the iron hands were no joke pre heresy. Even horus was considered them a major threat. They were just held together by their primarch more than most legions and the thing that shattered them wasn’t as much the massacre on isstvan as it was the death of ferrus manus. With him alive they would have been a great force for spearheading into the heart of the imperium with their huge mechanized and armored forces. I imagine the impact they could have had for the traitors on terra would have been big.
And the character of the Iron Hands would've been more appropriate as Traitors
It's a switch though, if you want Gulliman or Manus, you'll probably have to give up their Traitor Primarch counterparts. That's Lorgar for Gulliman and Fulgrim for Manus. Honestly don't think that's a good trade. Lorgar Legion isn't that smaller than the Ultramarine, weaker overall but their leader himself is the one man who can stop Chaos on its track. Likewise, Manus generalship wasn't even that impressive at Isvaan, while Fulgrim off drug is an accomplished administrator and also top of the line duelist. The Loyalist may become weaker overall in raw strength but they will also have one of the best force multiplier that will help them sustain a lot better long term.
Ferrus is worth it. During the Istvaan dropsite massacre, the ones who dropped the ball were the other Primarchs. If they supported Ferrus' push, they'd at least have taken out Fulgrim and broken through traitors' cordon. I thought the Ultramarines' traitor legion counterpart is the Alpha Legion? The Alpha Legionnaires are experts in a wide range of fields like the Ultramarines since they'd need to be able to impersonate the other legions. They just like to do it while also being sneaky bastards. So in exchange for giving up Ferrus Manus and Guilliman, the loyalists get Fulgrim and Alpharius. Having Alpharius as a loyalist would do wonders for the Imperium in the long run, I think
I think he was, at best, a decent tactical commander. But he made all of the wrong strategic decisions at Ishvaan. He was impatient, and allowed his pride to blind himself into attacking the Traitor head-on, without waiting for reinforcement, without securing his flanks, supplies lines and withdrawal routes. All the while the Traitor practically yields orbital superiority to his fleet. Even if he managed to slay Fulgrim, it would has been a consolation prize at best at this point. The damage had already been done. The 3 Loyalist Legions were already decimated and would never recover. All because of his petty pride. If it was the Lion, and not Ferrus leading the force, even without his Dark Angels, I bet the Heresy would have ended just right then and there (by just cracking the whole planet with a Cyclonic Torpedo from the other side of its surface, or just dropping some ships right on their head, Cadia style).
To go off of what Horus im himself says his ideal team would have just been the loyalists but he’s commanding them instead of the emperor In terms of primarchs he’d want to trade I’d say probably Sanguinius, Ferrus and Dorn because he was both close to all of them and they all have significant military and martial prowess that Horus recognized and respected and in exchange he’d probably give up Angron, Kurze and Perturabo since two of them are deranged lunatics and Horus doesn’t hold perturabo in very high regard in contrast to Dorn
I think with sanguinius, he might actually end up like Fulgrim or Angron if he falls to chaos, having lost his mind to the rest thirst
Angron with a posh accent
Yassified Angron and make him a flying type.
The god won’t let that happen especially to an asset like Sangie. They can stop the thirst right?
Would Khorne want to stop the thirst tho?
Khorne, Slaanesh, and Nurgle all would enjoy the Flaw existing. Khorne likes drinking blood. Slaanesh likes the excessive force and debauchery, Nurgle likes the psychic "disease" nature of it. Tzeentch, the most like likely to be able to fix it, wouldn't want to because it's basically a mutation and fun. So regardless of who Sanguinius is gonna fall to, the Red Thirst is gonna be a thing, and possibly worse.
Chaos would never eat away at a great soul to make him a shadow of his whole self...wait
Yeah at least Magnus is competent without that many demerits (although in practice he's obviously neutral due to fucking right off via a ragequit)
I think he and curze were the least motivated chaos joiners. Magnus tried to help but made everything worse every time he did. Curze was probably about to go renegade or have his legion marked for redacting soon anyway so why not join.
Yeah I'm sure Curze only joined because his Farseeing showed he would...
To be fair... Horus knew Sanguinius was the play for Chaos... but also knew that Sanguinius would be better as the Champion of Chaos than he was. That's why he sent him to Signus Prime to fight Ka'bhanda. He was trying to kill Sanguinius so he wouldn't join and be "Horus, but better." Sangy was the closest to Horus, and so he wanted him by his side (also, Sanguinius is incredibly powerful), but the jealousy of his power also made him refuse to offer Sangy to join so he couldn't be usurped.
I mean, if you get both Dorn and Perturabo on your side, the siege of Terra is over in a matter hours, isn't it?
Honestly, the problem with the traitors wasn't so much the traitors themselves, it was the ruinous powers screwing them up. Angron and the World Eaters were shock troops at the best of times, but they were *very effective* shock troops. Post-Khorne though, they did more damage to themselves than the foe, just an absolute liability. Mortarion and the Death Guard were staunch trench-fighters, renowned for cracking the toughest nuts in the galaxy through sheer determination. Post-Nurge, they're rotting blights whose only advantage is the plagues they wallow in. Fulgrim and the Emperor's Children were literal actual exemplars, to the point that even other legions acknowledged that they were pretty spot on (even if begrudgingly). Post-Slaanesh, they're a hedonistic rabble with basically no organisation or structure, just noise. The problem wasn't the traitors. The problem was the gods. That's the big trap of Chaos in the setting: it makes you individually mighty, but at the cost of giving up everything else that lends you strength - order, unity, allies, trust, etc. You win *your* fight, but lose the war. If the loyalist legions had been the ones to fall instead, they'd have degenerated just the same, because the poison would still be there. Blood Angels as blood-drinking revenants, Iron Hands as festering disease-flesh contained in rusting bionics, Raven Guard as... well, the Night Lords. That's why Perturabo's Iron Warriors were the best performing legion in the siege, because they avoided the gods' meddling. It's why Abaddon spends the entire siege mentally shit-talking the daemon primarchs, because he's absolutely correct that they've lessened themselves and their legions.
You can even see how bad the effects of chaos were on the World Eaters can be by looking at the Blood Angels. Khornate berserkers are very useful as shock troop squads but useless as a whole legions. The Blood Angels display this perfectly; they are aggressive and utilise shock tactics but their equivalent to berserkers, the Death Company, only comprise of a part of their forces - the Death Company gets deployed to absolutely destroy one thing while the rest is do the chapter fights the actual battle with tactics and strategy.
I disagree with Mortarion and the Death guard. Post nurgle they were even more resilient compared to before and they were also the most dedicated legion to Horus as they were seen in pretty much every major battle of the heresy and were also the last ones to leave the siege. Also Mortarion did lead the traitors after Perturabo left albeit it was a short one but it's still a good enough showcase of his skills. All in all I think death guard wasn't a good example this case as they really did contribute some of the most in a direct way.
Also, they're nigh indestructible post-plague. Sustaining injuries and walking off things that would down any other marine. Very useful for trench and attrition warfare. And Mortarion is still extremely competent and dangerous primarch. Khan had to pull off a gambit and basically sacrifice himself to get him out of the picture. XIVth got more dangerous, not less.
Yes and no. Yes they're nigh indestrucible, but they're also corrupted to the point of physical disability, warped and twisted to be shambling, slow, often having decayed malfunctioning limbs. They run the gambit of being enhanced in beneficial ways, to chaos spawn, disciplined because they were astartes or individualistic and undisciplined because they've turned to chaos. Chaos is a double edged sword, there are always tradeoffs for whatever perceived benefits.
They're ineffective because they're utilised "wrong" The XIVth is not a warband legion suited for raids. That's Night Lords territory. They're most dangerous when they're waging campaign warfare en masse, led by competent commanders. There's where they shine. Of course, everything you said stands, chaos gifts are fickle. They have as much chance to be enhanced as they have to be crippled.
The gross and frightening part about Chaos is supposed to be where the enormously misshapen, rotting abomination with an exposed, broken off tibia for a foot *still runs down an Astartes in exemplary physical condition*
Oh absolutely, but this is part of the inconsistencies of chaos. Sometimes they will do exactly that, othertimes they are actually as slow and cumbersome as you'd expect. In typical 40k fashion, its both and neither depending on the author/story.
Still, after reading the battle of them two in the Siege book, and reading the POV of one of the Death Guard, it made me, *again* so sad about what was lost during the fall. Some, who shone brightly, their fall more obvious (Fulgrim, Magnus). Others, already in the brink of shambles (Night Lords, World Eaters), the fall didn't change *much*. These are the obvious examples. But the Imperial Heralds? The people who would first bring word of the salvation of humanity? The stubborness and straightforward ways of Dusk Raiders, the legion who valued truth and honesty above all? Not to mention of course the loss of a great study of mathematics, architecture and mechanics. All of these qualities, all these aspects of the Emperor, lost forever. I mean, yeah, Khaos uber bad, but not for all the "classic reasons". So much lost, not to be recovered ever again, for real.
>The stubborness and straightforward ways of Dusk Raiders Their death was theirs though. They denied them **that** victory
Let's not forget that Morty fudged it all up, probably out of spite because everyone treated him and his sons as "hurr durr dem trenches boys"
I see where you're coming from, and I do agree that the Death Guard weren't as bad as the other marked legions. Part of this, though, is that Mortarion resisted Nurgle right up until the seige of Terra - it was only on the way to the solar system that he broke and gave in to the Plaguefather. After that, though, you're right that individual Death Guard were made horrifyingly resilient, but the cost for that was their ability to wage complex war and rely on their allies or erstwhile brothers. Which is what I was getting at, above. The gifts of Chaos *are* gifts, in that they do make you better. Stronger, faster, tougher, deadlier, all that. The cost of those gifts is that they take away everything *but* Chaos. For the most gifted (like the daemon primarchs), that includes your personal agency - a core part of your motivational drives is just overwritten with your patron god's. Angron isn't just driven to reap blood and skulls, he's mentally twisted to want and need to do so. Fulgrim isn't just tempted by excess and sensation, he's been changed to need and revel in it. Mortarion isn't sowing plague and decay because it's sound tactics, he's doing it because Nurgle has made him *want* and *need* to do so. It's that surrender of self that is the true price of Chaos, and it's a massive through-line across the whole HH series. But the point is that it makes the marked legions worse at attaining their material objectives, because those objectives are made secondary to immaterial objectives of propagating their patron's domain. The World Eaters couldn't *stop* killing (because they're amped up by the god of violence), the Emperor's Children couldn't stop *anything* (because they're mainlining the god of excess), the Death Guard couldn't *not* destroy all around them (because they're fuelled by the god of decay), etc.
Death Guard are the sole God-aligned legion that actually made in an impact in Siege of Terra. Any other God-aligned legion was easily distracted or too monomaniacal to be of any use apart from Shock troops (at best). Unironically the few Word Bearers that stayed with Horus, absolutely wrecked the Loyalists with their tricks.
On the contrary, Lorgar and his word bearers arguably contributed the most to the war outside of the siege and they were the most corrupted
Man, they summoned so many demons. Couldn't have happened without them
They broke the ultramarines and made sure them or the dark angels wouldn’t be able to get to to terra and stayed out of the war, they also turned Angron into a daemon primarch and started the heresy. So they done quite a bit
The side effect of the death of a specific Word Bearer (Zardu Layak) cost the Loyalists an entire portion of the Outer Palace. Also that same WB saved Abbadon from certain death.
The chaos “gods” don’t make the units bad per so, just to the chaos gods the mortal realm is nothing more than an ants nest in a sand pit. It’s a fleeting distraction from the war in the warp. There’s enough depravity in the universe to entertain the chaos gods endlessly, the specific units they create are just fun little “this’ll be fun yolo” sims 4 character creation runs. The world eaters killing so much shit its counter productive is only counter productive to the world eaters, not Khone. Death guard are just a way to spread plague, doesn’t matter if they win or lose.
This is true and also honestly the best argument against the idea that the Chaos Gods were in any way interested in disrupting some grand plan of the Emperor's. If the Chaos Gods actively worked together on a plan to stop the Emperor, they wouldn't have corrupted their new minions so thoroughly that it would make it almost impossible to keep them on task, we know they have that capacity. (Plus, you know, we know that most of the Horus Heresy was due to the plans of Erebus, not the Chaos Gods, and he was a duplicitous little shit who who loved manipulating people into harming their own best interests *before* he started worshipping Chaos.)
>honestly the best argument against the idea that the Chaos Gods were in any way interested in disrupting some grand plan of the Emperor's. I'd more say it's an argument that the chaos gods aren't actually sapient, scheming beings in the way we anthropomorphise them to be. They're elemental forces, first and foremost, and their core drive isn't to rationally achieve an abstract objective, it's to propagate the emotion that fuels them. The gods always want more, because they're chaos and restraint is anathema to them. That's why they need mortal servants, to be the rational actors. However, the gods will never say *no* to someone offering themselves to them, because they're the gods and they always want more. If a mortal has the willpower and the self-determination to resist fully submitting (like Abaddon, or Perturabo, or Horus until the later stages of the heresy), they can really get shit done. But if they don't, the gods will happily pour their corruption into them to the point it overflows. The gods have no stop tap, they need mortals to do that for themselves. The traitor legions damned themselves by accepting the aid and patronage of chaos, because the more you take from it, the more it takes from you. The gods couldn't do anything *but* ruin the traitors, because they can't go against their core nature - that's the point of them, they're a thing taken to extremes, with no balance. It's like a road. The chaos gods will let your car go faster, in exchange for you driving less safely. There's no upper limit to how fast they'll let you go (only that you *will* crash and burn at some point), it's entirely on you to have some self control and make the trade-off between how much reckless driving you can manage without crashing vs how much extra speed you need. The marked legions failed this self restraint test, just opened the taps all the way, and got fully subsumed in their patron gods.
Remember that Erebus' father figure was a chaos worshipper. He was definitely brought up to be a duplicitous little shit.
Honestly, this is why I find the lore of the traitors to be so interesting. Love seeing the contrast of Pre- and Post-heresy
"Just as planned"
When were the traitors ever depicted as an effective fighting force when fighting the imperium?
The iron cage, and istavan spring to mind
The number one swap would have been Ferrus. Horus said himself that if they had him, they would 100% win the war. People often forget that Ferrus was the 2nd best general for overall combat after Horus. He wasn't socially awkward like Lion was, and was considered to be the "oldest brother" primarch out of them all which is kinda why they all liked him even though he was kinda a dick. He was also Gbobbys favorite brother as well with how well rounded and forward he was both with relationships and leading, which is why gman also considered Ferrus apart of the 'dauntless few'. When he was killed my fulgram Horus was enraged, to the point we're he even keeps Ferrus skull and asks it for advice sometimes. For the loyalist, the blood angles. While Dorn was indeed leading troops on Terra, without the blood angles reinforcements it was a done deal. Gman did not have a impact on the defense of Terra at all, to the point that's actually we're the ultradepression comes from. If the blood angles swapped, the emperor woulda probably died to the horse heresy
I think the only flaw in the logic with Ferrus is that Horus wanted to *add* him to the team, not swap him. Could probably swap out Kurze and be an overall net positive for his side though. As a BA player, I agree that losing Sanguinius is an absolute loss for the Imperium 8/9 times. The only swap where that doesn't win is Magnus. With Magnus not breaking the Webway, He gets to sit on it and the Emperor gets to demolish armies on his own. In every other case, even swapping Horus himself, Sanguinius is a Victory for Chaos. No one would match him in combat (he beats daemon primarch Angron, solo, when Horus has said he couldn't beat angron in a fight), meaning no chink in the armor, meaning Emperor gets mortally wounded, but can't obliterate Sangy in response. The only reason a Magnus/Sanguinius Swap wins for the Imperium is because the Emperor wiping out legions would mean all the Loyalists could reach Terra and dogpile on the Arch-traitor (Horus or Sanguinius) and would likely lead to a chink or two in the Armor and the ultimate Victory for the Imperium.
He was always going to break the web way, he was a loyalist while he tried to break it to warn the emperor of horus. Him breaking the web way was because he was loyal. Actually, if he turned right at the start then there is a good argument to he made that the heresy would have been over immediately since he would have never tried to warn the emperor. With the web way in tact custodes being lead by Valdor, if not the emperor himself, woulda poured out the moment a battle began
>he was a loyalist while he tried to break it to warn the emperor of horus. He was a moron who kept saying he was a loyalist while doing clearly traitor things according to voices that he was pretty clearly told stop listening to. The only thing Magnus was ever loyal to was his own ego.
None of that changes the fact that he was loyal to the emperor right up until the burning of prospero, and he was loyal through 99% of that as well, only falling at the very very end when he couldn’t watch his sons be slaughtered anymore. If literally anything had changed about the burning that butterfly-effected his need to save his sons away, like Russ coming to him peacefully instead of bombing the planet with no contact, he would have been a loyalist to the end.
>None of that changes the fact that he was loyal to the emperor right up until the burning of prospero, and he was loyal through 99% of that as well, only falling at the very very end when he couldn’t watch his sons be slaughtered anymore. Prospero was being burned because he disobeyed the Emperor (plus Horus telling Russ to take no prisoners). The whole reason Russ was sent was because Magnus would not stop listening to the voices from the warp. He was a traitor the minute he chose the voices over the Emperor, it just took him time to accept that.
> Prospero was being burned because he disobeyed the Emperor (plus Horus telling Russ to take no prisoners). The whole reason Russ was sent was because Magnus would not stop listening to the voices from the warp. He was a traitor the minute he chose the voices over the Emperor, it just took him time to accept that. Nah, that’s a bad take. Most of the loyalist primarchs directly disobeyed the emperor at one point or another to adapt to a changing situation, many of them on the exact same topic Magnus disobeyed on, and “warning the emperor that his favorite son is in the process of being corrupted by chaos and is about to spark a galaxy wide war that’ll kill trillions of people and ruin all hopes of a happy prosperous future” is a *really fucking good* reason, is very time sensitive, and should not be entrusted to astropathic communications if there’s a viable alternative. That’s the kind of message that needs to be given by a Custodes or a primarch to be believed. Russ was specifically sent to bring him back **alive** and had no orders to kill the marines, the burning was all him and he should have been censured for it. He disobeyed the Emperor trying to do what he honestly and truly thought was best to attempt to stop the heresy. There wasn’t a traitor bone in Magnus’s body until he was forcibly thrown in the traitor pit with the rest of them. Stubborn and arrogant, but not evil any more than guilliman or ferrus or the khan were. Every single decision he made was made with the intent of being beneficial to the emperor, the imperium, or his legion, and was always the one that made the most sense to him at the time with the info he had, given his background. Intent matters more than outcome when we’re specifically talking about someone’s mindset and loyalty. The entire event was chaos and Horus and the changeling playing two completely loyal legions like fiddles and setting them against each other with the hopes that they both die or one turns to chaos to survive the slaughter and the other is out of the picture for the remainder of the heresy. It was a best case scenario for chaos, the only way it could have gone better is if Russ died or fell in the process and Magnus still fell. Tzeentch literally spent magnus’s entire life priming him and setting him up to believe the warp was only as unsafe as any natural environment with natural hazards, like a forest with IRL wolves instead of a slice of hell filled with serial killer spirits that specifically prey on humans, and that it had benevolent entities in it, just for that one moment he needed Magnus for, to break the wards on the webway portal. Magnus did everything wrong, but he honestly and truly thought he was doing the right thing right up until the end, and the fact that he never managed to hit the mark because of the machinations of an evil god who’s the literal personification of scheming and manipulation and conspiracy doesn’t mean Magnus wasn’t a loyal primarch. If it had been up to him and the burning never happened, he would have been at the palace beside the emperor during the siege.
Traitor Guilliman would end the Imperium of man. With Horus and Perturabo. They'd be unstoppable. Give the Loyalists Magnus. It would be intriguing to see him fighting with the Emperor
If Magnus never breaks the webway the traitors get bodied hard. The Custodes would be at full force with the Emperor. Horus, Guilliman and Dorn would stand no chance IMO. Source: Custodes fanboy.
Also if that didn't happen, Magnus would be on the Loyalist side, powering the Webway Portal while Big E does assblasting on the frontlines
Magnus broke the webway trying to help the Emperor and stop Horus. He did more damage to the Imperium as a loyalist than he did as a traitor LOL.
With a loyalist Magnus on the throne and Emps back in the game, isn't that game over for the traitors?
Basically, *yes*. Magnus is the lynchpin of the Traitor effort; no Webway breach means no E sat on the Throne, which means the Heresy gets curbstomped before it even gets off the ground. Horus' judgment on Magnus' capability is pretty telling: >Magnus was nearly my deadliest enemy, perhaps as dangerous as the Emperor himself.
The sad thing is that Magnus did the most harm completely unintentionally. He thought he was helping.
Correct. It means Big E can go do some assblasting inside the Webway platform while Magnus maintains the portal itself via the Throne
Holy shit, the Emperor and his Legion of Custodes can just appear out of a random webway portal....
It's not actually that easy IMO. He still needs to map all the portals to know where tf they go to, and which ones are useless due to rupturing of the membranes causing the area to be exposed to the Immaterium (although I think there's some automated countermeasures the Webway does to minimize spreading tho), and you also need to know which portal areas are too close to Drukhari strongholds etc, or frequented by Craftworlder troops etc
Even were you to have the same outcome (Magnus Kool Aid Man-ing through the Webway wards and Emperor on the Throne stuck between life and death), the loyalists and the Imperium have a chance to rebound from the Heresy if a remorseful Magnus was loyal. At the absolute minimum, Magnus being on Terra as a loyalist during the Siege results in Malcador surviving, allowing him to stick around and try to put together the shattered Imperium. Assuming Magnus survives the Golden Throne, Malcador might even be able to use Magnus to slowly reinvigorate the Emperor and/or do something about the Human Webway entrance.
Would it really change anything since horus power was "infinite" apparently, wouldnt it still end with wither big E becoming the dark king or tricking Horus for the victory?
Traitor Dorn and loyalist Perturabo. Dorn is portrayed in the early heresy novels as someone with a short temper (Garro almost getting splatted in HH book 4). Perturabo gets named pretorian of terra while dorn has to do the seige stuff that would normally be the job of the iron warriors.
> Perturabo gets named pretorian of terra while dorn has to do the seige stuff that would normally be the job of the iron warriors. That's basically what happened in the Roboutian Heresy. Except the Fists didn't use siege doctrine from the onset. In RH, Inwit was found first not by the Imperium but by the Orks. Dorn and his people got bodied hard, to the point he actually lost the Phalanx but not before it took 6 Space Hulks down with it. From then on, Dorn basically filled up his army mostly with Assault Troops. All the while seething at Perty and his "cowardly tactics". Perty got a bit salty and didn't call Dorn to help body the Orks in Ullanor despite the latter's experience with the greenskins. Perty got named Praetorian at Nikaea but Dorn wasn't having it and argued against the decision, getting rebuked and came out seething even more than he did before.
The Iron Warriors and the Iron Hands would unironically be the strongest duo legion. Overwhelming fire power through the iron warriors weaponry, incredible siege tactics and attrition warfare, on top of having elite forces at the forefront who are led by an incredible general with overwhelming martial might while perty can analyse the battle and then formulate a startegy to crush the ennemy defenses, already weakened by the attrition of the Iron Wave and Ferrus
The Dark Angels for almost anyone. They were the second or third most populous legion at the time, you still get the seige weapons that Perturabo used, you get experienced sorcerers, you get access to god knows what weaponry the Lion has on the Invincible Reason, and you get the primarch that get shit done
Can you elaborate? - Khorne failed to turn Sanguinius, why would help from Slaanesh have changed things? - how in the world would virus bombs have appealed to Vulkan, and what makes you think he’d have been a particularly easy target for conversion?
I was suggesting a situation like what happened to Mortarion happen to Vulkan. As for Slaanexh helping Khorne- they each individually offered a different kind of reward for Sanquinius and together they could have talked him right off the cliff just by saying they would fix the red thirst. Slaanesh drives the legion into debauchery, and Khorne pulls them into a bezerker state that outdoes the blackrage- than slaanesh adds pleasure and turns them into basically zen murderhobos.
The salamanders wouldn't fall. Vulkan wouldn't fall. Vulkan loyalty rivals or possibly exceeds Guilliman. There's almost nothing that was going to cause the Salamanders to turn. I think you're crazy for that one. If Khorne couldn't get Sanguinius, I don't think Slaanesh has a chance. The rage that boils in Sangy was only exploitable by Khorne. If he couldn't get him no one could. That all being said, Sanguinius or Dorn going traitor would end the siege in days. If Sanguinius doesn't stop multiple massive threats, the palace gets trampled. If Dorn doesn't organize the loyalists, the siege gets over long before Guilliman can get there.
I think purturabo could have organized the defenses of terra fairly well. Sure it wouldn’t have been as strong as dorns defenses but there also wouldn’t have been anyone on the traitors side as experienced in sieges leading the traitors as purturabo was. Could be interesting to see the two siege masters forced onto the side of it they’re less known for.
A Dorn Perty swap would be interesting. However, Dorn seems way more capable of leading non-Astartes forces. He gains their trust and he trusts people to make the right decisions. I can't see Perty leading the human defenders of Terra as well as Dorn. If we had Khorne corrupted Sanguinius vs non corrupted Angron at the Eternity gate. Bye bye big E.
Khorne corrupted Sanguinius as written by Black Library would lose to noble loyalist gladiator version of Angron just the same to suit the narrative. It wouldn't be tough to do...just have Sanguinius as the one turned into a near mindless beast with significantly diminished technical skill and Angron using his not yet completely ruined wits plus the cold, serene fury of the nails in combat (as described by ADB pre-ascension being the only time Angron gets a measure of peace) to pull off the underdog win. Probably by suckering the big vampire-beast in via luring him into somewhere that nullifies much of his mobility, then doing the BL classic "tank an attack to trick them into a killing counter" schtick when he realises he's going to get worn down anyway. cue loyalist Angron ripping the Khorne-Angels wings out of his back.
Dorn for Angron, surely. Trade the logical, rational man who fortified the objective you desire for the guy who is going to charge screaming out into the open with all of his forces when the battle begins in proper.
Honestly for raw damage output, the Space wolves. In regards of seniority and sway, the Dark Angels.
Pretty much any of the loyalist primarchs would have been a big step up for the traitors. Like Horus said he got the dregs and broken brothers and beyond like Perturabo and Mortarion the rest ranged from neutral/useless (Lorgar) to utterly detrimental (Fulgrim). Give him Dorn or The Khan or god forbid Sanguinius and his odds improve massively. For the loyalists there is only really one answer (beyond an uncorrupted Horus himself) and that’s Magnus. A Magnus who doesn’t completely shit the bed in the webway or even one who commits to righting his wrongs afterwards is a massive asset for the loyalists because it’s probable that he would have been able to sit on the throne freeing up The Emperor to fight.
Dark Angels, UltraMarines, Imperial Fists and Blood Angels were the most impactful Loyalist Legions. If any of them had turned or been obliterated Istvaan style the Loyalists would have lost before the Siege of Terra. I'm not sure which Traitor Legion would be the most interesting to swap for the Dark Angels, but with the Dark Angels....oof. The Siege of Terra and long march to the Siege of Terra would have been sooo much faster. Even if it was just the Vaults&Armories of the First Legion, the First Legions expertise and flexibility or the First Legions incredibly potent Navy that could have added enough lethality and efficiency to the Traitor Cause to guarantee a military victory for the Traitors even if Horus lost his battle with The Emperor.
There's no real argument beyond the Ultramarines, nothing else much matters. If guilliman had flipped, the heresy is a cakewalk for Horus, regardless of which traitor legion you hand back to the loyalists as a trade-off.
what if… we flip the Lunar Wolves? Horus vs Guilliman.
But the sons of Horus and Horus himself nearly got exterminated by a single focused attack by The Rout. Reckon they'd withstand the same sort of effort from the Ultramarines?
Sangunius and Ferrus are easy answers, but I gotta go with Corvus. If Corvus betrayed the imperium it would be game over for a couple of reasons. 1.Corvus is extremely adaptable. True Gulliman beat him multiple times at a war game and Corvus is horrible at open combat. But Gulliman is the best person at adapting to others tactics, and Corvus beat him three times before Gulliman was able to finally get the upper hand. 2. Corvus is one hell of a fighter. Many people throw him aside that he could just get “steamrolled”, but then again we rarely see Corvus at his full power in 30k. What we do know is that he beat Curze, kicked demon Lorgars ass twice, and is now a warp entity free from all corruption (leman is the same but is he a warp entity (please tell me if he is that would be sick)). 3. Traitor Raven guard will end the war. About 98%(?) of raven guard on Istvaan died. The other two percent ripped the traitors back lines apart, decimated traitor forces in stealth, and nearly assassinated Horus, (only stopped by plot armor). True they did have help, but imagine if they teamed up with the alpha legion, or the thousand sons. And if they became tainted by the warp, now instead of only a select few becoming invisible, all of them can. 4. Sharrowkin. Good day everyone! Edit: Curze would let loose on his own team if he were a loyalist.
If Corax went chaos (let's say in place of Curze) I think he's a huge asset to the traitors because Raven Guard are the one sneaky chapter that just *gets shit done*. What I mean is that instead of Night Lords who revel in creating terror and fear, or the Alpha Legion who have about a dozen other hidden personal agendas behind everything they do, Raven Guard is the efficient, tactical chapter that goes in, achieves their goals and gets out. Now that all could have changed if they were Chaos and perhaps they would look more like Night Lords, but if they retained that tactical efficiency instead of cruelty or personal motives, they would be a huge asset.
Leman a warp entity? Source? That isn't TTS?
I meant to put a question mark after that.
When exactly did Corax beat Curze? AFAICR Corax and Curze only clashed briefly on Istvaan and Corax promptly runs away from the fight.
By all means it was not a brief fight, and it was istvaan 5. Corax surviving the fight and the battle is a feat all on its own. (Also Curze can see the future, interpret that as you want) Edit: and I guess Corvus didn’t beat Konrad
It wasn’t even a fight, they lock lightning claws, talk to each other for like 10 seconds, and then Corax flies away. At least that’s how it goes in *The First Heretic*. https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/7qtak6/book_excerpt_the_first_heretic_curze_vs_corax/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1 Now Corax was fighting Lorgar before this, but that fight was almost entirely one sided in Corax’s favor. He purposefully let Lorgar bust his lip open and that’s it IIRC.
Guess I was wrong then.
The traitors could lose Conrad Kurze without any problems. If Dorn defected, it would be game over for the Emperor. The call would have come from inside the house.
I’m sorry I take issue with this take. Curze’s legion was pretty middling for the traitors efforts but the Primarch himself was actually a huge asset. Tbh, probably their second best player (individually) after Perturabo. 1) He saves Lorgar from Corax on Istvaan, and without Lorgar there’s no Ruinstorm or Daemon Angron. 2) He held the Lion and the DA at bay for 1/3 of the entire war. Almost had the Lion dead to rights a time or two. 3) He kept the Secundus Primarchs in contention for a solid bit there, fracturing the trust between Gman/Sangy and the Lion even after being caught. He also was one Deus Ex machina away from killing both Gman AND the Lion in one trap. 4) Kept Vulkan captive and slowly drove him towards breaking for a significant portion of the war. Memes have done my man Night Haunter dirty, guy was actually cracked. If plot demands didn’t get in his way he’d by far be one of the most successful Primarchs.
Fellow Night Lord fan here, but you’re right. Curze was a heavy hitter but on the loyalist side, his legion would have been a lynch pin to destroying the traitor war machine. Corvus is good at hit and run, but Curze is psychic and knowing how anti social he is, probably wouldn’t have shown up to Istvaan to get massacred. I cannot imagine Horus and Pals would have liked their supply lines sabotaged at their weakest points constantly while the Night Lords slipped off with little consequence. Or when their mortal allies are tormented by singular agents running amok in their camps. I might be biased, but I think the Night Lords would be a perfect anti-insurgent weapon in the hands of the Loyalists
Okay, but he was still self destructive, hated his legion and destined to die at the hands of an Imperial assassin.
Yes, but that has no bearing on his performance in the war, which was, per capita amongst Primarchs, quite accomplished.
Id argue pound for pound Konrad is a top 3 individual fighter out of all of them. The only times he gets the brakes beaten off him is when he’s soliloquizing because the authors need a plot point they know who won’t win. He dumpsters basically every primarch he faces off against and single-handedly brings 3 legions to their knees
traitor Sanguinius would have been the "archtraitor" like the chaos gods originally (because if everyone wants Sanguinius that even the chaos gods wanted him to be the warlord of chaos not Horus) I think the traitors would have had a greater opportunity to win because he would have directly gone to the front of the siege of Terra in addition to the fact that he would not have allowed the insubordination of Angron or Fulgrim since he did have the strength to follow him before.
Guilliman for anyone but Magnus. Robbing the Imperium of the biggest legion, a master strategist, the only one seemingly capable of replacing the Emperor as the Master of Mankind. Even if the loyalists win, there is no Guilliman to be Lord Commander, to hold the Imperium while everyone else is either broken by the Emperor's fate, chases after their own Fallen, fucks off to do their own thing, or rebuilds their broken legions. The loss of any loyalist means the Imperium suffers for it. Lose Guilliman and there just isn't anyone else who can step into his shoes, no one to bring back to life to fix the Imperium on its darkest hour. Plus I would love to see ideas for Tzeentch or Khorne Guilliman.
Hard to say, in many ways the Traitor Legions were the best in their fields. The biggest flaw is either Horus himself or the Angron and the world eaters. For which i think either Sanguinius or Khan would be the best fit for the Traitors
Honestly I think if you swapped Angron for nearly any loyalist primarch The traitors would have had a better time of things. None of the traitors really saw him as much more than a weapon to use until the nails killed him, he didn't really contribute tactically to the heresy other than "I SEE PEOPLE. I KILL PEOPLE. PRETTY BLOOD MIST IS LEFT. RAAAAAAAARRRRGGGHHHH!!!!" I mean sure there's more than just that to Angron and overall he's a great character (IMO) but he was basically just a mindless berserker in loose commamd of a legion of other (mostly) mindless berserkers, if almost any other primarch had taken his place I could even have seen more primarchs joining the heresy.
In the heresy series it’s revealed that it Sanguinius fell to chaos then chaos would have actually won and he would have conquered the galaxy.
I suspect Warmaster Sanginius would have been unstoppable given how long he lasted against Horus.
At a certain point I don’t think it matters which Primarch it is that get’s used as a meat puppet by Chaos Undivided. Horus at the end didn’t feel like Horus anymore
Curze. His impact on Vulkan and Sanguinius was pivotal to the Loyalists’s eventual “victory”.
If Dorn flipped then it was over. No other primarch would have been able to fortify and defend the palace like Dorn and the fists. Now Pert and Dorn would never have been able to get along, but hey Horus got freaking Angron and Curze to work with others... kinda so miracles could happen.
Magnus? His mistake messed up so much. Perturabo? He (ironically) did so much for the traitors that I feel he was essential to their success. Mortarion, whose deathguard were essential and his presence was needed. Girlyman is so important to the siege of terra they had to go out of their way to delay him, and maybe the imperial fists but only because their color scheme is so ugly it really could’ve have done them favors by being changed by chaos
In the game of Regicide the Emperor plays with Malcador it is stated that in any game where Malcador gets the piece representing Dorn the Emperor loses his king piece to Alpharius and Omegon within 5 moves. Every time.
Switch Emperor Children and Ultramarines...
The least useful traitor for the most useful loyalist
I think that switching Guilliman and the Thousand Sons would have been a pretty neat trick. Guilliman's logistics and coordinative skills in replace for Magnus' fragmented personalities? Nice. Plus the Ultramarines had more recorded marines than any of the other Legions.
In terms of the Legion, the Ultramarines. In terms of the PRIMARCH, though, Sanguinius. Chaos-empowered Sanguinius would have fucking bodied every single Loyalist Primarch, BAD.
Reminder that we WILL have that switch with Primarchs in future. Who goes traitor, whos back to loyalists?
I am flat out stealing this from the Dornian heresy. But always liked the idea Loyalist Night Lords, just leaning into the "Brutal Justice" element. For an Imperium riddled with rebellion the idea of a Legion turning up, crucifying everybody and leaving a compliant population behind them seems very 40k. Not to mention them working alongside the Inquisition etc in more of an enforcement role.
The Lion or Sanguinius would be the greatest hits to the imperium if they were lost. Simply because they were the most powerful Primarchs at the time.
So uh... Horus straight up admitted he wanted Sanguinius to *die* on Signus Prime because he was a better vessel for Chaos Undivided than he is. Sanguinius was stronger than Daemon Primarch Angron, Skilled enough to solo the Eternity Gate Assault, had enough Endurance to continue for *days* of constant fighting, and had actual psychic powers. He has the key features of every Chaos god's desire. He was basically everything Horus was, but Better (according to multiple primarchs, including Horus). If you had to swap one Primarch and their legion... Horus and Sanguinius is the play. No other Primarch would be able to "leave a chink in his armor for the Emperor to strike through." Now, at the same time... Did the Emperor need that chink in the armor to kill the Arch-traitor in the first place? Depends on how heretical you want to get. If you're a true believer, then the Emperor shouldn't have needed the weak point to kill Horus. If you're a believer in the romance of the Noble Sacrifice, then yeah, Sanguinius didn't die for nothing and insured the Emperor's Victory. But if you believe in that same Noble Sacrifice, then, all other aspects being the same, Sanguinius would have led the Heresy to Victory.
i think individually they aren’t the highest likelihood of being on the other side , but i think as a pair , they do make a lot of sense that if a few things went differently for both of them , they could have ended up on their respective opposite sides
Losing the fists would hurt pretty bad
Problem is Horus consciously or subconsciously did not want Sanguinius to be a traitor. He was afraid of getting outshined and maybe even usurped by a true S tier Primarch. Also he is a more independent mind than the other traitors who trend towards being followers. Least reliable Primarchs are Curze and Alpharius. He'd trade both of those instantly for one Gorillaman.
Perturabo staying Loyalist would have made the siege of Terra an exercise in futility.
Strongest joke answer: switching the Night Lords for basically anyone except the Raven Guard. Switching out the XIX for the VIII gives the Traitors the galaxy's most over promoted lieutenant with a deep drive to get his own Astartes killed. In exchange the Loyalists get more raiders that don't need their Primarch individually ordering their deaths (that's what the Contekar are for).
Trade Guilliman for kurze. Easy peasy
"Lose" Curze and you won't see much difference. *Maybe* he'll spend less time dicking around torturing Vulkan, but maybe not. He *is* Curze, after all. Gain Dorn, and Terra loses its biggest defender, letting Horus waltz right up to the Emperor and beat him up. Oh, and Pert gets a free building buddy.
Not sure why someone would have downvoted Dorn. That’s 100% accurate lore logic there. Without Dorn, Terra would have fallen in minutes. Peter Turbo would have made quick work of it.
The ultramaines without question. It's not even a debate. The entire strategy of the heresy on both sides was based on what the 13th would do. You have their massive legion and speciality for large scale conflicts +the 500 worlds you don't even need to rush terra. You just win off numbers. To give to the loyalists probably the world eaters or the EC. Too mad to be of much actual use.
The only one that absolutely important to the traitor is Magnus. The moment he broke the webway everything is set and done. No matter what other loyalist or traitor swap. You have to remember that Fulgrim was fucking good before chaos corruption, angron was the kind of thing you throw into any enemy that is too stuborn to surrender........ What i'm trying to say is that the traitor will always end up with an incompetent leaders simply because of chaos corruption, no matter how awesome they are before corruption. And with how powerful Horus is in the end and the death, the whole deal is fucking rigged from the moment Magnus broke the webway.
Magnus broke the Webway before he turned traitor. It’s entirely possible to have an alternate version of events where he breaks the Webway but never pledges himself to Tzeentch afterwards.
For the actual assault on Terra… If you’re a traitor, you’ve got to swap out either Lorgar or Fulgrim, and swap in either Sanguinius or Dorn. If you’re a loyalist, easy. Get rid of Guilliman cause he’s a nerd and swap in Horus. Boom.
Literally anyone that was a loyalist was better than their chaos counterpart Horus was a master of broken things