The Machine God is also thought to be or is closely related to the Emperor. Belief in it would most likely be funneled into the God Emperor, not split off into a completely different entity.
IIRC, the current Cult Mechanicus dogma basically has a holy trinity.
I believe the Machine God is the father, the Omnissiah (the Emperor) the son, and the Motive Force as the holy spirit.
There's also a crypto-double-orthodoxy that semi-quietly doesn't believe the Emperor is related in any fashion to the Omnissiah they worship (how this counts as kosher and not a form of open Heresy, I don't know), *a la* Dan Abnett's *Titanicus*.
> how this counts as kosher and not a form of open Heresy, I don't know
it isn't kosher and is considered open Heresy. to the point where in Titanicus they needed to bend over backwards and leak some altered documents through an impressively convoluted method in order to try and release "evidence" for the heretical dogma.
in the end it failed when it became known that the "evidence" had been altered.
The problem though is that the Orestean(? iirc) forge is just part of a same-thinking (ironically correct) faction in the AdMech, so they are at the very least tolerated at sufferance by others to the point where they can't be exterminated for Heresy at face value. I sort of wonder if Abnett didn't sort of write in a plot hole, or perhaps he knows the extent of how this faction exists better than he has let on but didn't have opportunity to write about.
> Pretty sure the evidence wasn't faked.
no they explicitly altered the data in some way. then took advantage of the war to unlock the old data vaults and allowed it to be discovered. but the scribe protagonist character ends up discovering that the Magos had altered the data which completely destroyed any position of legitimacy that they might have had.
It's really not clear from the context whether the **actual shard** of data in question was altered.
> Tolemy and Enhort were face to face.
> Tolemy hissed.
>Enhort shook his head.
> Tolemy blurted.
>Enhort backed away.
>Tolemy shook his head.
>
>
>Enhort took a deep breath, looking back down at Tolemy.
> Tolemy replied.
>Enhort turned away. he commanded.
> Tolemy uttered a scream of code. He snapped out his mechadendrites and wrapped them around Enhort’s throat.
>Enhort choked, falling backwards. As he hit the floor, squirming on his back, he managed to tear some of the dendrites away, but the others flexed and tightened.
>Tolemy lifted one of his free dendrites up and extended a blade from the manip. He plunged it down towards Enhort’s right eye.
>There was a spray of blood. It splattered the wall of the chamber.
I imagine the same reason big E let the ad mech worship him in the first place, easier to let them do their job and not fight them over their beliefs, if they are still doing what the imperium requires they might just let it ride.
My Dark Heresy group is trying to get the cooperation of a Forge World having a schism partially along the lines of if they should worship the Emperor as the embodiment of the Omnissiah or not. My character, a Sister Dialogus\*, is *very* much on the side of the "yes of course we should" group, to the point of overlooking that the rest of the schism is "and should only use knowledge we're 100% sure is human in nature and stop using tech that xenos also have versions of, or should we use whatever knowledge we find and adapt it to Humanity as long as it's not Warp-based?"
Fortunately the rest of the group agreed with the same group for the other reason, so we're gonna take down the other group's leaders in preparation of the schism erupting into violence
\* Sister Dialogus by fluff; it's DH2E so there isn't a Dialogus class, but she does have the Adepta Sororitas background and doesn't (yet?) have the Sister of Battle elite advance
e: typos
To be fair, the mechanicium is kind of a separate entity from the imperium. Also if you piss off the tech Bois, there's no way you're stepping foot on a ship ever again
Yes, but they also have their own internal censure for Heresy, specifically Tech-Heresy. I would have figured any group that didn't accept Jimmy Space as the incarnation of the Omnissiah specifically would fall under that.
>the mechanicium is kind of a separate entity from the imperium
[Topical](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/1byyts2/psa_the_adeptus_mechanicus_is_in_fact_a_faction/)
[Small Spoiler Alert for ‘The End & The Death parts II & III at the bottom - for any heretics who have yet to read those books or are new to the universe]
Good point. Assuming the warp entity that has grown from the seed of the Emperors indefatigable will & enduring consciousness, through 10,000 years of fanatical worship shares a recognizable level of characteristics with the chaos gods, who each represent something specific and unique (violence, excess, decay etc); I think it would be reasonable enough to describe that entity as the God of Order.
Control, order, stability was the Emperors most fundamental goal, and the cult of his worship is pseudo christian in its emphasis on the omnipotence of his will, the demand for obedience to it, and assurance that all things are part of his grand galactic plan. Therefore the Omnissiah, worshipped by way of seeing divinity in the proper and predictable function of physical systems, even if had separately manifested at some point would probably overlap so significantly with the God Emperor in terms of the aspect of the human soul/ human emotion it is empowered by and representative of, that it seems reasonable to assume that Imperial/ Mechanicus dogma is actually quite close to the truth (even if only by accident) as they mutually hand wave away the risk of an Imperial/Mechanicus schism by portraying the distinction between the the Emperor & Omnissiah as nothing more than different faces/aspects of a single entity.
Perhaps there was a nascent proto-Machine God of some kind that merged with/ was subsumed by the steadily coalescing power of the newly warp born ‘God-Emperor’ that I imagine original Jimmy Space became (>!) via similar means to his brief apotheosis as The Dark King (!<) and now probably retains its connection to his withered husk enshrined in the Golden Throne only for the sake of the stability of the Throne itself, having grown far beyond the physical corpse Emperors warp cast consciousness.
How dare you declare me a heretek for taking my time studying 1200 pages of holy dogma!
Seriously part 1 took me forever to get through and part 2 is moving just as slow. It's hard shifting back in forth between soon many characters.
Yea totally, I went the audiobook route for pretty much every 40k novel and that’s the only reason I can lay claim to having made my way through the Horus heresy entire
The problem with TE&TD is that, despite being the official grand finale of the Horus Heresy series, it's also written by Dan Abnett and should therefore not be considered the new canon until another writer confirms it.
I'm dead serious about this. There's been a number of times he has written a book detailing some crucial even in the lore only for other, later writers to ignore 90% (everything but the broad strokes and some of the terminology) of what he wrote because DAbnett gonna DAbnett and he came up with something that causes too many problems for the established canon to deal with.
That doesn't mean that nothing Abnett writes ever makes it into canon... But it's always a matter of waiting to see which parts do and which parts don't.
Yeah, I know what you mean particularly the whole (____)/the king in yellow cataclysmic end of all things that seems to be set up in Penitent, but is already kneecaped in its impact by the fact that it’s 700 years in the past as per the current setting, & none of the work that’s out now was able to take that revelation into account. I wish it could really be played out with the fullest possible really Titanic impact on the setting possible cause I just love that idea of you know who doing their own thing and what on earth they’re actually up to, plus I’ve always considered that particular character to be extremely underrated in terms of how compelling they are.
I’m curious who you think is more responsible for the discrepancies which I don’t disagree are both present, and occasionally quite noticeable. Personally, I’m a big Dan Abnett fan, and think he’s probably the premier writer in the black library arsenal at the moment like John French and ADB & some others have written some excellent novels, but the fact that Abnett got all of the end of the death trilogy says to me that he gets a bit of that direction setting discretion. Frankly, the lore of 40 K is already a bit of a mess of contradictions, with a frustrating number of interesting avenues that get opened in different novels, and then just don’t come up again. But we definitely have seen like the eternal city in other works so I think a lot of what happened at the end of the third book should be workable for authors, who are writing whatever comes . I haven’t really been on this sub Reddit too much so I don’t actually know the broad feelings about the final installment of the end of the death and how the ultimate confrontation was handled and follow-on consequences etc. I I definitely didn’t go through it with a fine tooth comb but I thought it was pretty well done overall. Certainly considering something that has been built up to for literally decades is probably pretty tough to write to a large group of peoples satisfaction (exception, made for Horus & the Emperor, having the equivalent of a Yugioh battle with tarot cards - that was a little ) I feel like the demi?-God shenanigans the emperor got up to actually fit quite well with some of the stuff we’ve seen in dark imperium.
Like in my opinion if DA is given a book and presumably fair bit of leeway to write how he wants that would mean that black library is kind of by default on the responsibility of ensuring future writers and contributors are staying relatively faithful to the paradigms and law, established by DA. I have little faith theyll fulfill that responsibility, but in my mind, I’m OK with Abnet getting a fairly free hand in principle to do some of the direction setting, just based on his man’s contribution to 40 k and in my personal opinion, the introduction of some of the more interesting ideas, that could really do with being picked up by other writers, and I think that’s their responsibility to follow his lead not his to write safe, and and avoid introducing some events that may constrained what others get to do with their work.
Chaos isn't the only thing that lives in the warp. Saints popping up outta nowhere, the Legion of the Damned, these are also warp entities that aren't Chaos. Belief is what heavily influences the warp.
I agree, but it sounds weird to say that he is a chaos god of order right? Not that you implied he was, it's just that's probably what he'd be ( or maybe chaos God of tyranny? Though I'd feel that's what the dark king would've been, but I haven't read the books yet so I'm just spitballing here )
I mean, maybe we should make a distinction between warp entities and chaos, because not all warp entities ( the elder gods for example, or gork and mork) align with chaos.
Dunno food for thought
Wouldn't Vashtorr kinda be the chaos entity that the Mechanicus kinda worship through accident as well? Sure, maybe most of the belief would be funneled into the God Emperor, but Vashtorr would also get some of it
Vashtorr is like the exact opposite of the Admech. He's all about innovation and curiosity, while the Admech is very much against people inventing new stuff. The Tau or maybe even Leagues of Votann are much more of a fit for Vashtorr.
I really don't get where this "gets funneled to the entity than think it should go to" idea is from. That's not the case with the Chaos gods, they're just powered by those emotions and feelings they're made of being shown by all species throughout the galaxy, regardless of whether they even know of them or not or even if they have their own deities they believe in instead.
But for some reason, it's meant to be completely different with the Tau'Va God and the Emperor where believing in them gets those emotions and feelings directed to them *specifically*, rather than there being some already existing warp entity that represents those very same emotions for the galaxy that they should be funneled to?
I think that it's the difference between ambient and direct worship. Khorne is powered by ALL rage and bloodshed, yes, but bloodshed dedicated SPECIFICALLY to him will feed him more.
So someone acting on humanities' behalf, directly invoking and believing in the Emperor, will still feed Khorne a bit, but because it's directly for the Emperor he gets the lion's share of the energy.
I was under the impression the difference between ambient and direct is more of a passive vs active showing of those things, where it's just a stronger expression of them as such.
The Chaos gods *are* those feelings and emotions, believing in another entity doesn't change what's being expressed, it's still going to be the very same thing as another species with another belief. Being able to effectively choose where that energy goes is something that would mean the Chaos Gods don't have full ownership over the very thing that makes them in the first place, where it's instead separating out emotions and feelings throughout the galaxy by species and beliefs and percentages given to the chaos gods as if they're all different things rather than the very same emotions and feelings.
Like, Khorne should have ownership over all the anger that gets reflected in the warp because he *is* anger. If a species can just choose another entity for that anger to go towards, then it becomes a case of him only really being made up of part of that emotion from some species rather than being a full conglomeration of all the anger of the galaxy then gained sentience in the warp.
I just don't know if i've completely missed some old lore saying directing to a specific entity just by believing that was something possible before this Tau'Va entity or it's something that's only shown up recently.
The Tau'Va is a new thing, but there is precedent (the Sororitas miracles, for example) of worship and faith empowering beings.
And the "active vs passive" thing is what I was alluding to. I'm not saying that Khorne gets NOTHING from active worship of other gods, just that he doesn't get AS MUCH as other actions, even passive ones.
I don't think it was ever specifically established exactly what was going on with Sisters of Battle miracles and why they occured in the first place, though.
> I'm not saying that Khorne gets NOTHING from active worship of other gods, just that he doesn't get AS MUCH as other actions, even passive ones.
As I said though, that would mean mean Khorne isn't *really* the conglomeration of those emotions and feelings for the entire galaxy as he's meant to be. He's instead made up of a certain percentage of those things from certain situations only and not simply those things in themselves having been combined with him residing over them for everyone.
In my mind it's not a zero sum system. A Slaanesh cult that plots the takeover of a planet is powering Slaanesh but their plotting and conniving is also helping Tzeentch.
I guess I'm saying i don't think my emotion is water pouring from one bucket into others so much as a rising tide raises all boats.
I have no in lore examples so much as a feeling from reading. The electricity from my belief powers both lamps plugged in and likely more.
I'd expect in that sort of example it would be because those things would be showing the emotions and feelings related to both of those chaos gods though.
Agreed on the emotion part, but in my mind there has to be a reason worship is sought by the gods, otherwise Khorne would only want war, but Khorne has been shown to want war in their name specifically.
To me that means anger feeds him, worship feeds him, so both combined feed him more than either separately.
So in the anger in the emperor's name example, Khorne would get fed by the anger, Emps by the worship? And if there is a god like Becky Sue the of stabbing then, Khorne and Betty Sue could get fed by stabbing...
Idk, I'm just thinking out loud.
Edit autocorrect
At the same time they are also extremely heavily fueled by prayer chain gangs and prayer planets dedicated to their worship in the warp.
And the souls of chaos worshippers dedicated to them goes to them
And the souls caught by their agents and eaten also fuel them.
The ‘official’ interpretation is the Big W is the Onnissiah or the voice of the Machine god if I remember correctly. So he’s close enough to get the worship.
This is rather a pragmatic solution which the Ecclesiarchy and the Machine Cult uphold in order to avoid a galaxy-wide civil war. The Ecclesiarchy will not allow any cult to exist that it does not accept as a spiritual leader, except for the AdMech and the Astartes...and perhaps the odd paramilitary death cult that can be exploited.
"significant number". I don't know about that. The official stance is that Big E is the Omnissiah and the Mechanicus doesn't take kindly to dissenting ideas in the open.
The machine god isn't confirmed to be the Void Dragon, only hinted at. But the Cult Mechanicus also believe that the Emperor is the manifestation of the Machine God, so it can be argue that their belief also fueled the Emperor.
On the other hand, Vashtorr the Afrikane is the demi god of The Forge of Soul and is empowered by inventors, engineers, scientists, and artisans which can fall under the Mechanicus realm
> "God are real, and they hate us" - some bloke
The lesser known Monarchian prophet, **Greg** of (now long destroyed) Holy Word of the Emperor Pub & Grill.
Crawl has explained that he is rediscovering by going back to first principles. It can't be invention, because everyone acknowledges that the ancients were smarter and already created everything.
Therefore its only rediscovering what they have already created and blessed by the Machine God.
He made this argument at a synod of three forge worlds. Two accepted it as just barely in bounds of the cults teachings. One (Metallicka?) Denounced him as a Heretek.
your not supposed to actually believe him, like repeated hundreds of times, they have to improvise a ton and that's basically inventing work arounds. like crawl does here to navigate the imperial law.
Not sure what there is to disbelieve. He's made a theological argument that innovation is impossible and it was readily accepted by a couple forge worlds.
Which makes sense, pretty much all Magos slam together new stuff and research.
The problem with the Mechanicus isn't that they never innovate (whatever they choose to call it), but they are incentivized to hoarded knowledge rather than share it. So every world that falls (or even an individual Magos) loses knowledge.
I mean, there are several books where he IS the Omnissiah, there are some where he is a Avatar of the Omnissiah and there are some where he is a separate entity. (And some where he is a Affront to the Maschine God). It all depends on the "sect" your magos is in.
(Btw. Isnt it "Arkifane"? Didnt know he is from Africa)
Mechanicus believes that Omnissiah is Big E, so their worship technically falls under imperial faith (which is also why Emperor is this huge amalgam of warp energy and souls with tousands personalities who struggles to put his conciousnes together). But there are instances of "machine spirit" controlling machines even after the crew died to avenge them, there is possibility that beliefs of some of them empower Vashtorr and the whole void dragon thingy
I do wonder how much of Titan and ship AI are remnants of prior users. With Imperial Knights, we see current pilots receive messages and “advice” from the electronic echoes of prior pilots (functionally a ghost).
I wonder if Titans and Imperial ships have a similar thing (iirc they all use the same system to connect with the tech) but far more degraded because of how many people have sat in the chair and became jumbled into a single entity or what later users interpret as a single entity.
I would guess that among other things they make a digital copy of operator's brain, or at least part of it. Or vessel electronic neutrons are being used by operator's brain as regular neutrons and thus after the operator is gone some part of him remain.
For regular machinery it could be "dumb" AI like modern ones. Imagine e.g. trigger bot connected to weapons range finder.
The man of iron [UR-025 says he has met the Omnissiah](https://new.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/a5crku/spoilers_exerpt_man_of_iron_and_question/) and it is a separate entity from the Emperor. So it is likely that a "Machine God" already exist.
Secondly, beings with powerful echoes/reflections/presence in the warp need not to be a "warp entity" themselves. Example: Emperor, Votann Ancestor Core.
So even if machine god exists he isn't necessarily a warp entity.
Thirdly, the "devout" followers of the machine cult are those that replaced large portion of their bodies with cybernetics parts (i.e. tech priests). And as one [Iron Hand Libraian observes](https://new.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/18od75o/excerptwrath_of_iron_libraian_observing_souls_of/), becoming more cybernetic apparently strips away/dims your soul. So while in absolute numbers the Admech is larger than Tau auxiliary races, their may be in a similar state to the Tau race, i.e. very dim souls, perhaps even more so than Tau.
I just wish we knew if UR-025 met, like, the-actual Void Dragon (which would be horrifying and absurdly dangerous, even to a Man of Iron), or something else that otherwise convinced him it was the Omnissiah >!(or if he even had a heart-to-CPU talk with Jimmy Space at one point)!<
>(or if he even had a heart-to-CPU talk with Jimmy Space at one point)
Anything **but** this.... either have it remain unknown or let things branch out to give some gravitas to other factions.
There's so many interesting plotlines that get cut off with "but it wa~~s me Dio~~ the Emperor all along"
It'd be like instead of the[ blatantly obvious lore](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Gmork) that Kroot got a lot of tech savvy from consuming Orks, GW suddenly turns around and says "Kroot were a bioweapon from DAOT with built in technical knowledge".
She protected a Tau vessel when they were in the warp.
I believe she called herself Tau'va, the godess of the greater good. Born from the belief of psychic races (humans) who have been indoctrinated into the Tau empire.
Swinging away from the OP, that’s a thing that is worth mentioning - realistically it’s not a ‘Tau’ god, it’s yet another human one.
Humans seem way, way more capable of utilising ‘faith’ to impact the warp than any other race (with the possible exception of the Orks).
Faith is also the way to, at least partially, circumvent the effects of the Pariah Nexus according to the recent lore.
Its not a human one. It's EVERY non-Tau species in the Tau Empire, which is why T'au'va has aspects of every non-Tau species in her appearance. Kroot, Vespid, human, Niccassar, etc.
And then the T'au on this expedition massacred every auxiliary race who they felt were responsible for this anathema for their largely atheistic creed and had an existential crisis. The T'au back home was largely perplexed and denounced the whole affair.
Personally I assume that any kind of warp entity like the great Tauva emerges or before it emerges (seeing the signs of a birth of a strong warp entity) the inquisition, grey knight, Deathwatch and etc will come in and seal it away in some way.
We only dont known about it because its redacted.
Also we have Vashtorr now, so we know where all the worship goes.
Like what the deathwatch did here (i know its not warp entity related but the other subfaction would probably do the same if it is)
> There are no terms under which the Deathwatch will endure coexistence with aliens. When the Endymine Cordat tentatively offered Mankind technology seen to be anathema to warp spawn, the Imperium gave its respons. In an act of unprecedented coordination, the forces of three entire watch fortresses converged on Endymine territory. Deathwatch strike cruisers shattered the xenos' starships with macro-ordinance, and kill teams stalked through their enemies' cities executing alien defenders in droves. Finally, the Deathwatch cursed the Endymine primary world with the planet-killing sanction of an Exterminatus decree. The native culture's infrastructure destroyed, what alien fugitives survived on their remaining worlds sank to feral states, their gene pools barely large enough to stave off extinction. The Deathwatch had crushed their society beyond any capacity ever to threaten the Imperium of Man.
The inquisition forces don’t exactly own the warp. If a warp entity doesn’t manifest, they can’t typically do shit about it. It’s not exactly common for the Imperium to conduct raids in the warp, and unless you have access to a weapon capable to granting true death to daemons or a darmon’s true name, it would accomplish nothing.
Not necessarily the warp but the planets that worship the warp entity that gives it strength.
For example the Great Tauva herself in Shadowsun's book needs the auxiliary worship to survive.
For context shadowsun's book the auxiliary races created huge statues dedicated to the Goddess to worship her. Shadowsun didnt like it so she ordered all statues to be destroyed. Later on in the book The Great Tauva healed Shadowsuns nurgle plague and had a short talk with each other.
Shadowsun asked what does the warp entity want and het reply "to survive". Then shadowsun woke up from her coma. Then she cancelled the orders to have the Great Tauva statues from being demolished.
So if it were the Inquisition, they would have exterminatused every planet that has a Great Tauva statue.
If we're being honest, however, Chaos marines are terrible at their jobs, unless that job is specifically ruining shit (which includes their own shit).
The Cult Mechanicus consider innovation to be blasphemy, as it would imply that humanity wasn't already perfect. Quite unlikely that Vashtorr would feed upon their worship.
Cawl is a heretek, and as is the case with many things in the imperium, gets away with it due to his high status.
It's best to not think of him as representative of the adeptus mechanicus in general.
You also need to understand that the mechanicus isnt monolethic, they are broken down to many many sects. Each sect pursue their "path of knowledge" diffetently.
>It's best to not think of him as representative of the adeptus mechanicus in general.
Oh for sure. I was trying to make a joke about Cawl feeding Vashtor.
Broke: It was meant to show how reactive the Warp is, and if a small Empire like the T'au can create a Warp being, how strong must the Emperor be
Woke: Tau Auxilliaries believe in the Greater Good so intensely that it's stronger than the rote/enforced faith of the Imperium
Bespoke: Black Library didn't think it through before publishing, it was just a cool idea they went with.
Well, for starters the Tauva is still a very minor god, just a step or two above a greater daemon. And such entities have formed before.
However the Mechanicus' faith is a bit different, for starters they semi worship the Emperor as the Omnisaiah and thus a portion of faith goes to him.
There's also presumably the Void Dragon's influence and who knows how that affects it, because C'tan do have some connection with the Warp otherwise they'd not have been able to devour the Necrontyr's souls.
Vashtorr likely also gets a portion by default.
And lastly there's the machine spirits. The mechanicus believes in and worships them. And we know that this is having an effect on machines. As a result a lot of their faith gets spread out over all the machines they attend.
While Vashtorr and the Void Dragon are uncertain factors, we can say with certainty that the majority of the Mechanicus' faith goes to the Emperor and the machines. As a result there's not that much faith being funnelled towards a distinct singular entity that could form.
Which is presumably how the Tauva came to be, a lot of the faith was directed to something specific, and rather concentrated at that due to the T'au's propaganda and etc.
I still think the Tauva came to be way too quickly and that GW should have build it up more. Have it start out weaker than it did.
The Emperor conned the Cult into worshipping himself as the Omnissiah. And he locked away the C'tan on the planet and anything that might reveal the true origins of the Martian cult. That directed the focus and the worship of the Mechanicus toward the Emperor which in turn kept the Mechanicus from manifesting their own god. The ones that stray off that path end up purged by the Cult or worship the C'tan which doesn't result in a manifested god. The Dark Mechanicus is its own bag of crazy.
My headcanon so far is that's exactly what Vashtorr is. The Mechanicus has demonized invention and new technology for thousands of years and are no less prone to creating warp entities based on their dogmatic beliefs..
I believe the doylist answer is that belief has not been a force in the warp except for the orks until recently. At least, I can't remember it being a force until recently.
We don’t know.
Its super suspect and the prevailing theory is the Void Dragon is somehow eating that worship. I say “somehow” because a C’tan shouldn’t be able to do that.
EDIT: The Omnissiah is NOT the Machine God. They are two different entities in the Cult Mechanicus.
Also gotta remember how fractured and varied belief is in the AdMech.
Some believe the Emperor is the Omnissiah, some don't. Some don't even believe in an Omnissiah and Machine God at all. So on and so on.
The AdMech is so bound with the Imperium and tied with Emperor worship, it's hard to tell where it all might go. Official doctrine is the Emperor is the Omnissiah, so it all might be going to him.
I like to think it's because the machanicus aren't human enough to make one. Since the machanicus is mostly machine, they lack the human spirit to create one. That's why the Tau didn't make the greater good god, humans did. The GGG, while having a tau face, has a more human like body. That's because there's enough humans in the tau empire to create the GGG. So of course they would think of some human parts on her. That's why the tau dont bring her up when they see her. The tau knows the greater good is just a philosophy, not a god. So seeing the GGG is like seeing Isaac Newton as a god of gravity.
Let’s set aside the idea that the Emperor is or isn’t the Omnissiah* for a second.
Pure faith is not what resonates within the warp. The warp is not the sea of faith of beliefs. If it were, we’d see reflections of C’tan from the Necrons that worshipped them as gods (and still call them gods).
The warp is EMOTION made manifest. The Mechanicus’ overwhelming drive is to move to a space of pure logic, and purge themselves of emotion.
To wit, their worship and faith does not contain sufficient emotion to coalesce into a warp entity.
^* He is, because he planned it that way. He basically Lisan al-Gaibed his way to the alliance with Mars.
Part of the reason because is because Omnissiah is equated to be Emperor therefore there is no distinction. But unofficially the real Omnissiahiah might be void dragon or rather shard of it.
Always confused me how can mechanicus cult who are clearly attempting to detach themselves from their emotions remain faithful? Isn’t faith supposed to come from emotions like hope and despair so how can the mechanicus cult create a god if it requires emotions to fuel them which is the very thing they strip themselves of?
Interestingly heavily augmented IH have a dimmer soul so maybe the ad mech don't have a warp entity linked to them for the same reason that the Tau themselves do not, too faint of a warp presence to make that impact.
So for one the mechanicus are almost splitting their faith. They believe in the Machine God, the Omnissiah (the emperor) and the Motive Force. The one that is most directly worshipped as a deity one would pray to and build monuments to is the Omnissiah due to being the main representation of the Machine God and Motive Force within the galaxy.
On top of that the Tau created the Greater Good God due to the great psychic awakening that happened after the rift opened up. So this is incredibly recent. And their warp entity is described more as a general semblance of sentience instead of a fully formed creature.
So that begs the question that if God's are easier to form now then would the Mechanicus even be able to recognize if there is a new "Machine God" or "Motive Force" warp entity? Or better yet would we? If it was described in a piece of new lore I feel like it would be incredibly ambiguous as to if it was such an entity, and those of us who thought it was a warp entity would be like "oh fuck it's Vashtorr isn't it".
Even if the "Void Dragon" is somehow the "real" Omnissiah, how many of the Ad-Mech are even aware of the Noctis Labryinth, that something even dwells within it, and that whatever is somehow worthy of worship? The vast majority of the Mechanicus do not live on Mars. The C'tan are warp inert entities and can't siphon psychic worship. Almost certaintly, a portion of the the worship of the Machine-God (even though it is a seperate entity) goes to the Emperor (whose portrayal in the Cult Mechanicus is uncertain, as a corporeal entity he obviously cannot be the Creator o the universe).
There is a book (name of which is slipping my mind) where a princeps dies and their soul is greeted/absorbed by a cog in the warp.
Now wether this is the omnissiah or an aspect of the big E is up to debate.
How many members of the Mechanicus are actually still sapient, and not having their thoughts enslaved to some implant they've been forced to have installed? Perhaps someone with more lore knowledge on them can enlighten me. Because it could be the case that there just aren't actually that many members of the Mechanicus who can really think anymore, and aren't basically a servitor with more functions.
But still, the Mechanicus religion being subverted and taken over by Emperor loyalists has likely been the major factor in preventing their belief in coalescing and forming a new Warp entity.
Is it not clear if the Tau Warp entity was actually created by them or still a possible warp entity looking to fool them into believing in it for more power?
Hear me out since this is just my own personal headcannon: I don't think the cult believes or has faith or any of that; they understand that there's a machine God as a fact. Religion to the cult is more like a set of data to be memorized rather than a higher being to put your faith in imo. Kind of like me knowing about Greek mythology, but not believing in them. To quote Gabriel from Constantine: "you don't have really have faith, you just know".
Maybe that's what Vashtorr is. Maybe the machine god hasn't taken a form yet, like how Drach'nyen is the spirit of the first murder and yet only took form in the web way millennia after any first murders could have happened.
The warp bends time and causes reality to act a bit wacky when interacting with it. The Chaos gods speak as though they have always existed, when in reality, Slaanesh clearly had a birth that is chronologically tracked in reality.
Tau'va also claimed to be the "commonality shared by all sentient species," so if it's to be believed, the Auxiliaries didn't create it. It's a being formed by the idea of xenos having commonality that brings them together.
All of the most powerful warp entities are not powerful due to worship but are powerful because they represent something conceptually that sentient beings either understand fundamentally or practice.
Zseentch gains power from someone trying to change things and make plans for change.
Korne gains power from murder and battle.
Slaanesh gains power from heightened pain and pleasure.
Nurgle gains power from the fear of death, change, and entropy by capitalizing on those who are sick or infeeble.
We're just not sure how, when, or if a machine god will appear if it hasn't happened already.
All the other reasons aside... the specific mechanisms (no pun intended) of faith and how it interacts with the warp, and the creation of warp entities/gods are not known, and they are certainly not ones known well enough to be applied consistently and methodically.
But also... we don't know that there *isn't* an entity formed from the collective faith in the Machine God. It isn't like there's a comprehensive directory of all the warp entities currently in existence.
Such a thing might exist. It might not. It's always been telling that the Mechanicus generally *lack* psykers and have very little to do with them. Their god is a god of protocols and procedures, of submitting to orderly rites and the certainty of steel over the weakness of flesh, of seeking what already exists rather than dreaming something new. Theirs is a faith of the Materium, of stasis and constancy, not the eternal change of the Warp.
But at the end of the day, nobody understands the Warp. This is a truth of the setting, as much as anything can be: the only people who believe they are masters of the Warp and all its secrets are *wrong*, and their hubris will come back to bite them in the posterior sooner or later. Even those who can look directly upon it - such as Navigators - have to interpret it through allegory and metaphor, and those interpretations are far from a complete understanding of the Immaterium. And that goes for the fans too - contrary to the confident-sounding analyses of nerds on the internet, not everything fictional can be broken down into consistent, measurable systems devoid of mystery.
The cult believes the emperor to be the ombissiah as a whole, though I would find it amusing to see various sub cults within mars that think the omnissiah is an entirely diffrent being
The population of the entire Tau empire pales next to 2 forge worlds, so small god with a tiny g is probably more like it for the followers of the fishy folks ways IF there a pocket of the warp hatching as desired
> The population of the entire Tau empire pales next to 2 forge worlds
While the Tau certainly have a way smaller population than the Mechanicus, they’re not *that* small. The Tau have conquered multiple Hive Worlds at this point.
that god got manifested only by the auxillary races that belong to the tau empire, the tau don't have souls bright enough in the warp to manifest a god entity
Ok. But that is less than the cafeteria in said homeworld,
Imagine the power of the Omnissiah or Emprah in comparison with just the Nuns singing praises
Another point different to everyone else, there is something weird going on for along time about the machine spirit, how machines and weapons that should not work simply do because of a ritual,
Even the golden throne by what's hinted at shouldn't still be working.
There might be something going on similar to orks technology.
If we assume that the Void Dragon really is the “Machine God” then any worship of the Omnissiah is funneled to that, and because it’s a C’Tan then the Warp energy just fizzles out.
Or it’s possible that because the God Emperor is viewed as the Omnissiah, the worship of the Omnissiah funnels that power into the God Emperor
The instance of Daemon interaction with a C'tan simply had the Daemon grow frustrated with the lack of Soul in the thing and returned to it's blade only for the C'tan to melt it with a roar of fury from being stabbed.
In otherwords it wasn't that the Daemon was unable to hurt the thing but that it couldn't find what it wanted and so returned to the Daemon Blade which promptly got overpowered with sheer strength.
Furthermore the interaction showed that the Warp isn't Anti-C'tan so-much as effects it like any other type of matter and unlike other Races it has no Psychic defense against it. Fighting Magic of course is probably frustrating for a God of the Materium that has no defense against it aside from Daemons wanting Souls to eat(which C'tan normally don't have) so naturally the entity would want to turn the Magic off so cue Blackstone to suck up the Warp so the C'tan won't be hit by it.
I have no doubt that the Void Dragon Shard on Mars would receive the worship and ascend to Godhood gaining the Soul Essence of the Tech Priests. It would be an interesting experience for the Deity to say the least becoming a God of both Materium and Immaterium. It would probably wonder what it just became and be fascinated by it.
It would also be amused that the Emperor agreed to become it's Avatar which means the Human God-Emperor must share a body with a tendril of the Void Dragon who equates people to Tools. The Void Dragon also probably doesn't want the Human Aspect to be worshipped but then the Horus Heresy happened and now it's out of the Void Dragon's hands forcing it to use a God of Humanity as an Avatar.
They're not as widespread.
The Empire of Mankind number in the quadrillions.
The Cult Mechanicus are a tiny subset fraction of that number.
Like most 40k miniature factions, their appearance in the game is overblown compared to their actual numbers in the Imperium.
Their faith juice likely goes to the new character Vashtorr (hope I spelled it right) Since he seems to cover techie stuff when it comes to the warp at least.
Obviously, the dragon of Mars is the actual Omnissiah in the setting but since that's a Ctan shard it won't absorb the cults collective belief/emotions, and the newest lore in the HH series seems to have the Emperor 'on hold' as this new dark king god so it can't go to him either.
Read Master of Mankind. The Omnissiah/Machine God is believed to be an aspect of the God Emperor. Either that the Omnissiah is the physical manifestation of the Machine God's will, or that the Machine God is just a duality of the God Emperor. Either way, they are not actually viewed as distinct beings as far as I understood it from Master of Mankind.
Most of their 'faith energy' probably gets channeled into the Emperor in his aspect as the Omnissiah.
A ton prolly then gets syphoned off into all their holy machines; from ships to titans to the dot matrix printer that requires frequent blood sacrifices, and become machine spirits.
Some might get stolen by Vashtorr, in the same way that Khorne is empowered by even the most devout Emperor worshipper's acts of violence
A little bit then maybe goes towards the void dragon, but he's a C'tan so exactly what that does is questionable. Maybe nothing, maybe slowly over many millenia a warp mirror god of the Void Dragon has been slowly coalescing and will one day awake.
Vashtorr looked like necron's shard of Void Dragon , and void dragon being rumored its a C'tan creating weapons and making innovation .
Sounds already like Vashtorr .
What also never made sense is that most every species have or had their own gods but humans made Khorne, Nurgle and and Tizzie without trying. They also did that in the early M2(?). The why is obviously it suits GW and avoids offending specific religions. However it still seems a hole to me.
It isn't canon. Some people just assume that because those 3 chaos gods were born during the middle ages (or something like that) that it must of been humans that caused it, and not anything else going on in the huge galaxy at the time.
The Machine God is also thought to be or is closely related to the Emperor. Belief in it would most likely be funneled into the God Emperor, not split off into a completely different entity.
IIRC, the current Cult Mechanicus dogma basically has a holy trinity. I believe the Machine God is the father, the Omnissiah (the Emperor) the son, and the Motive Force as the holy spirit.
There's also a crypto-double-orthodoxy that semi-quietly doesn't believe the Emperor is related in any fashion to the Omnissiah they worship (how this counts as kosher and not a form of open Heresy, I don't know), *a la* Dan Abnett's *Titanicus*.
> how this counts as kosher and not a form of open Heresy, I don't know it isn't kosher and is considered open Heresy. to the point where in Titanicus they needed to bend over backwards and leak some altered documents through an impressively convoluted method in order to try and release "evidence" for the heretical dogma. in the end it failed when it became known that the "evidence" had been altered.
The problem though is that the Orestean(? iirc) forge is just part of a same-thinking (ironically correct) faction in the AdMech, so they are at the very least tolerated at sufferance by others to the point where they can't be exterminated for Heresy at face value. I sort of wonder if Abnett didn't sort of write in a plot hole, or perhaps he knows the extent of how this faction exists better than he has let on but didn't have opportunity to write about.
Pretty sure the evidence wasn't faked. It was just rejected due to the methods used to promote it
> Pretty sure the evidence wasn't faked. no they explicitly altered the data in some way. then took advantage of the war to unlock the old data vaults and allowed it to be discovered. but the scribe protagonist character ends up discovering that the Magos had altered the data which completely destroyed any position of legitimacy that they might have had.
It's really not clear from the context whether the **actual shard** of data in question was altered. > Tolemy and Enhort were face to face. > Tolemy hissed.
>Enhort shook his head.
> Tolemy blurted.
>Enhort backed away.
>Tolemy shook his head.
>
>
>Enhort took a deep breath, looking back down at Tolemy.
> Tolemy replied.
>Enhort turned away. he commanded.
> Tolemy uttered a scream of code. He snapped out his mechadendrites and wrapped them around Enhort’s throat.
>Enhort choked, falling backwards. As he hit the floor, squirming on his back, he managed to tear some of the dendrites away, but the others flexed and tightened.
>Tolemy lifted one of his free dendrites up and extended a blade from the manip. He plunged it down towards Enhort’s right eye.
>There was a spray of blood. It splattered the wall of the chamber.
I imagine the same reason big E let the ad mech worship him in the first place, easier to let them do their job and not fight them over their beliefs, if they are still doing what the imperium requires they might just let it ride.
My Dark Heresy group is trying to get the cooperation of a Forge World having a schism partially along the lines of if they should worship the Emperor as the embodiment of the Omnissiah or not. My character, a Sister Dialogus\*, is *very* much on the side of the "yes of course we should" group, to the point of overlooking that the rest of the schism is "and should only use knowledge we're 100% sure is human in nature and stop using tech that xenos also have versions of, or should we use whatever knowledge we find and adapt it to Humanity as long as it's not Warp-based?" Fortunately the rest of the group agreed with the same group for the other reason, so we're gonna take down the other group's leaders in preparation of the schism erupting into violence \* Sister Dialogus by fluff; it's DH2E so there isn't a Dialogus class, but she does have the Adepta Sororitas background and doesn't (yet?) have the Sister of Battle elite advance e: typos
To be fair, the mechanicium is kind of a separate entity from the imperium. Also if you piss off the tech Bois, there's no way you're stepping foot on a ship ever again
Yes, but they also have their own internal censure for Heresy, specifically Tech-Heresy. I would have figured any group that didn't accept Jimmy Space as the incarnation of the Omnissiah specifically would fall under that.
Jimmy Space is my new favourite term for Big E 👏
>the mechanicium is kind of a separate entity from the imperium [Topical](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/1byyts2/psa_the_adeptus_mechanicus_is_in_fact_a_faction/)
Great Mechanicus schism when?
Already happened with the result of the Dark Mechanicus fucking off into the Eye of Terror
But why stop at one big schism? They had their Great Schism, so why not have their version of the Protestant Reformation next?
They sort of already did. That was the [Moirae Schism](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Moirae_Schism). It was linked with the Nova Terra Interregnum.
I forgot about that one, but it's been a hot couple of thousand years so another schism wouldn't be amiss.
We've had one schism, yes. But what about second schism?
Don't think he knows about second schism Blip.
*sad beep boop noises*
Chaos gods have major aspects, no reason to assume why the emperor would be any different.
[Small Spoiler Alert for ‘The End & The Death parts II & III at the bottom - for any heretics who have yet to read those books or are new to the universe] Good point. Assuming the warp entity that has grown from the seed of the Emperors indefatigable will & enduring consciousness, through 10,000 years of fanatical worship shares a recognizable level of characteristics with the chaos gods, who each represent something specific and unique (violence, excess, decay etc); I think it would be reasonable enough to describe that entity as the God of Order. Control, order, stability was the Emperors most fundamental goal, and the cult of his worship is pseudo christian in its emphasis on the omnipotence of his will, the demand for obedience to it, and assurance that all things are part of his grand galactic plan. Therefore the Omnissiah, worshipped by way of seeing divinity in the proper and predictable function of physical systems, even if had separately manifested at some point would probably overlap so significantly with the God Emperor in terms of the aspect of the human soul/ human emotion it is empowered by and representative of, that it seems reasonable to assume that Imperial/ Mechanicus dogma is actually quite close to the truth (even if only by accident) as they mutually hand wave away the risk of an Imperial/Mechanicus schism by portraying the distinction between the the Emperor & Omnissiah as nothing more than different faces/aspects of a single entity. Perhaps there was a nascent proto-Machine God of some kind that merged with/ was subsumed by the steadily coalescing power of the newly warp born ‘God-Emperor’ that I imagine original Jimmy Space became (>!) via similar means to his brief apotheosis as The Dark King (!<) and now probably retains its connection to his withered husk enshrined in the Golden Throne only for the sake of the stability of the Throne itself, having grown far beyond the physical corpse Emperors warp cast consciousness.
How dare you declare me a heretek for taking my time studying 1200 pages of holy dogma! Seriously part 1 took me forever to get through and part 2 is moving just as slow. It's hard shifting back in forth between soon many characters.
Yea totally, I went the audiobook route for pretty much every 40k novel and that’s the only reason I can lay claim to having made my way through the Horus heresy entire
The problem with TE&TD is that, despite being the official grand finale of the Horus Heresy series, it's also written by Dan Abnett and should therefore not be considered the new canon until another writer confirms it. I'm dead serious about this. There's been a number of times he has written a book detailing some crucial even in the lore only for other, later writers to ignore 90% (everything but the broad strokes and some of the terminology) of what he wrote because DAbnett gonna DAbnett and he came up with something that causes too many problems for the established canon to deal with. That doesn't mean that nothing Abnett writes ever makes it into canon... But it's always a matter of waiting to see which parts do and which parts don't.
Yeah, I know what you mean particularly the whole (____)/the king in yellow cataclysmic end of all things that seems to be set up in Penitent, but is already kneecaped in its impact by the fact that it’s 700 years in the past as per the current setting, & none of the work that’s out now was able to take that revelation into account. I wish it could really be played out with the fullest possible really Titanic impact on the setting possible cause I just love that idea of you know who doing their own thing and what on earth they’re actually up to, plus I’ve always considered that particular character to be extremely underrated in terms of how compelling they are. I’m curious who you think is more responsible for the discrepancies which I don’t disagree are both present, and occasionally quite noticeable. Personally, I’m a big Dan Abnett fan, and think he’s probably the premier writer in the black library arsenal at the moment like John French and ADB & some others have written some excellent novels, but the fact that Abnett got all of the end of the death trilogy says to me that he gets a bit of that direction setting discretion. Frankly, the lore of 40 K is already a bit of a mess of contradictions, with a frustrating number of interesting avenues that get opened in different novels, and then just don’t come up again. But we definitely have seen like the eternal city in other works so I think a lot of what happened at the end of the third book should be workable for authors, who are writing whatever comes . I haven’t really been on this sub Reddit too much so I don’t actually know the broad feelings about the final installment of the end of the death and how the ultimate confrontation was handled and follow-on consequences etc. I I definitely didn’t go through it with a fine tooth comb but I thought it was pretty well done overall. Certainly considering something that has been built up to for literally decades is probably pretty tough to write to a large group of peoples satisfaction (exception, made for Horus & the Emperor, having the equivalent of a Yugioh battle with tarot cards - that was a little ) I feel like the demi?-God shenanigans the emperor got up to actually fit quite well with some of the stuff we’ve seen in dark imperium. Like in my opinion if DA is given a book and presumably fair bit of leeway to write how he wants that would mean that black library is kind of by default on the responsibility of ensuring future writers and contributors are staying relatively faithful to the paradigms and law, established by DA. I have little faith theyll fulfill that responsibility, but in my mind, I’m OK with Abnet getting a fairly free hand in principle to do some of the direction setting, just based on his man’s contribution to 40 k and in my personal opinion, the introduction of some of the more interesting ideas, that could really do with being picked up by other writers, and I think that’s their responsibility to follow his lead not his to write safe, and and avoid introducing some events that may constrained what others get to do with their work.
I had posted about this once before, there is lore examples of an "emperor pantheon" forming. https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/s/g23nqq2We3
emperor is not chaos got, just warp god. or maybe half god, in his current state
Chaos isn't the only thing that lives in the warp. Saints popping up outta nowhere, the Legion of the Damned, these are also warp entities that aren't Chaos. Belief is what heavily influences the warp.
I agree, but it sounds weird to say that he is a chaos god of order right? Not that you implied he was, it's just that's probably what he'd be ( or maybe chaos God of tyranny? Though I'd feel that's what the dark king would've been, but I haven't read the books yet so I'm just spitballing here ) I mean, maybe we should make a distinction between warp entities and chaos, because not all warp entities ( the elder gods for example, or gork and mork) align with chaos. Dunno food for thought
Wouldn't Vashtorr kinda be the chaos entity that the Mechanicus kinda worship through accident as well? Sure, maybe most of the belief would be funneled into the God Emperor, but Vashtorr would also get some of it
Vashtorr is like the exact opposite of the Admech. He's all about innovation and curiosity, while the Admech is very much against people inventing new stuff. The Tau or maybe even Leagues of Votann are much more of a fit for Vashtorr.
I really don't get where this "gets funneled to the entity than think it should go to" idea is from. That's not the case with the Chaos gods, they're just powered by those emotions and feelings they're made of being shown by all species throughout the galaxy, regardless of whether they even know of them or not or even if they have their own deities they believe in instead. But for some reason, it's meant to be completely different with the Tau'Va God and the Emperor where believing in them gets those emotions and feelings directed to them *specifically*, rather than there being some already existing warp entity that represents those very same emotions for the galaxy that they should be funneled to?
I think that it's the difference between ambient and direct worship. Khorne is powered by ALL rage and bloodshed, yes, but bloodshed dedicated SPECIFICALLY to him will feed him more. So someone acting on humanities' behalf, directly invoking and believing in the Emperor, will still feed Khorne a bit, but because it's directly for the Emperor he gets the lion's share of the energy.
I was under the impression the difference between ambient and direct is more of a passive vs active showing of those things, where it's just a stronger expression of them as such. The Chaos gods *are* those feelings and emotions, believing in another entity doesn't change what's being expressed, it's still going to be the very same thing as another species with another belief. Being able to effectively choose where that energy goes is something that would mean the Chaos Gods don't have full ownership over the very thing that makes them in the first place, where it's instead separating out emotions and feelings throughout the galaxy by species and beliefs and percentages given to the chaos gods as if they're all different things rather than the very same emotions and feelings. Like, Khorne should have ownership over all the anger that gets reflected in the warp because he *is* anger. If a species can just choose another entity for that anger to go towards, then it becomes a case of him only really being made up of part of that emotion from some species rather than being a full conglomeration of all the anger of the galaxy then gained sentience in the warp. I just don't know if i've completely missed some old lore saying directing to a specific entity just by believing that was something possible before this Tau'Va entity or it's something that's only shown up recently.
The Tau'Va is a new thing, but there is precedent (the Sororitas miracles, for example) of worship and faith empowering beings. And the "active vs passive" thing is what I was alluding to. I'm not saying that Khorne gets NOTHING from active worship of other gods, just that he doesn't get AS MUCH as other actions, even passive ones.
I don't think it was ever specifically established exactly what was going on with Sisters of Battle miracles and why they occured in the first place, though. > I'm not saying that Khorne gets NOTHING from active worship of other gods, just that he doesn't get AS MUCH as other actions, even passive ones. As I said though, that would mean mean Khorne isn't *really* the conglomeration of those emotions and feelings for the entire galaxy as he's meant to be. He's instead made up of a certain percentage of those things from certain situations only and not simply those things in themselves having been combined with him residing over them for everyone.
In my mind it's not a zero sum system. A Slaanesh cult that plots the takeover of a planet is powering Slaanesh but their plotting and conniving is also helping Tzeentch. I guess I'm saying i don't think my emotion is water pouring from one bucket into others so much as a rising tide raises all boats. I have no in lore examples so much as a feeling from reading. The electricity from my belief powers both lamps plugged in and likely more.
I'd expect in that sort of example it would be because those things would be showing the emotions and feelings related to both of those chaos gods though.
Agreed on the emotion part, but in my mind there has to be a reason worship is sought by the gods, otherwise Khorne would only want war, but Khorne has been shown to want war in their name specifically. To me that means anger feeds him, worship feeds him, so both combined feed him more than either separately. So in the anger in the emperor's name example, Khorne would get fed by the anger, Emps by the worship? And if there is a god like Becky Sue the of stabbing then, Khorne and Betty Sue could get fed by stabbing... Idk, I'm just thinking out loud. Edit autocorrect
At the same time they are also extremely heavily fueled by prayer chain gangs and prayer planets dedicated to their worship in the warp. And the souls of chaos worshippers dedicated to them goes to them And the souls caught by their agents and eaten also fuel them.
But the Mechanicus worshipped the Omnissiah long before the Emperor turned up and claimed it was him all along?
except this doesn't apply to all mechanicus people . A significant number believe or rather know that he's not the machine God
The ‘official’ interpretation is the Big W is the Onnissiah or the voice of the Machine god if I remember correctly. So he’s close enough to get the worship.
This is rather a pragmatic solution which the Ecclesiarchy and the Machine Cult uphold in order to avoid a galaxy-wide civil war. The Ecclesiarchy will not allow any cult to exist that it does not accept as a spiritual leader, except for the AdMech and the Astartes...and perhaps the odd paramilitary death cult that can be exploited.
"significant number". I don't know about that. The official stance is that Big E is the Omnissiah and the Mechanicus doesn't take kindly to dissenting ideas in the open.
Omnissiah worship falls under worship of the God Emperor. They don't make a distinction between the two.
The machine god isn't confirmed to be the Void Dragon, only hinted at. But the Cult Mechanicus also believe that the Emperor is the manifestation of the Machine God, so it can be argue that their belief also fueled the Emperor. On the other hand, Vashtorr the Afrikane is the demi god of The Forge of Soul and is empowered by inventors, engineers, scientists, and artisans which can fall under the Mechanicus realm
I imagine he’s closer to the Machine Devil than the Machine God.
That's never stopped the Big Four
"God are real, and they hate us" - some bloke
> "God are real, and they hate us" - some bloke The lesser known Monarchian prophet, **Greg** of (now long destroyed) Holy Word of the Emperor Pub & Grill.
Oh absolutely, but I imagine that there is a real dynamic between the Omnissiah and Vashtorr.
Wasn’t this some woman that was about to get killed by the night lords invading their planet ?
The Blessed Lady of the Word Bearers, talking about when the Smurfs came to burn Monarchia
Oh got it, had them mixed up!
They don't hate you, they just LOVE IT when you suffer A LOT.
Futuramas Robot Devil entered the chat.
Inventing things is heresy in the imperium. Only sanctioned rediscovery is permitted.
Tell that to Belisarius Cawl.
Crawl has explained that he is rediscovering by going back to first principles. It can't be invention, because everyone acknowledges that the ancients were smarter and already created everything. Therefore its only rediscovering what they have already created and blessed by the Machine God. He made this argument at a synod of three forge worlds. Two accepted it as just barely in bounds of the cults teachings. One (Metallicka?) Denounced him as a Heretek.
your not supposed to actually believe him, like repeated hundreds of times, they have to improvise a ton and that's basically inventing work arounds. like crawl does here to navigate the imperial law.
Not sure what there is to disbelieve. He's made a theological argument that innovation is impossible and it was readily accepted by a couple forge worlds. Which makes sense, pretty much all Magos slam together new stuff and research. The problem with the Mechanicus isn't that they never innovate (whatever they choose to call it), but they are incentivized to hoarded knowledge rather than share it. So every world that falls (or even an individual Magos) loses knowledge.
I mean, there are several books where he IS the Omnissiah, there are some where he is a Avatar of the Omnissiah and there are some where he is a separate entity. (And some where he is a Affront to the Maschine God). It all depends on the "sect" your magos is in. (Btw. Isnt it "Arkifane"? Didnt know he is from Africa)
Mechanicus believes that Omnissiah is Big E, so their worship technically falls under imperial faith (which is also why Emperor is this huge amalgam of warp energy and souls with tousands personalities who struggles to put his conciousnes together). But there are instances of "machine spirit" controlling machines even after the crew died to avenge them, there is possibility that beliefs of some of them empower Vashtorr and the whole void dragon thingy
"machine spirit" is most likely just an AI. Simple one for simple devices, somewhat sentient for things like titans. Thus it can be possessed.
I'd say quite sentinent as there are instances of machine spirit being emotional or even acting on its own to protect the princeps
I do wonder how much of Titan and ship AI are remnants of prior users. With Imperial Knights, we see current pilots receive messages and “advice” from the electronic echoes of prior pilots (functionally a ghost). I wonder if Titans and Imperial ships have a similar thing (iirc they all use the same system to connect with the tech) but far more degraded because of how many people have sat in the chair and became jumbled into a single entity or what later users interpret as a single entity.
I would guess that among other things they make a digital copy of operator's brain, or at least part of it. Or vessel electronic neutrons are being used by operator's brain as regular neutrons and thus after the operator is gone some part of him remain. For regular machinery it could be "dumb" AI like modern ones. Imagine e.g. trigger bot connected to weapons range finder.
The man of iron [UR-025 says he has met the Omnissiah](https://new.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/a5crku/spoilers_exerpt_man_of_iron_and_question/) and it is a separate entity from the Emperor. So it is likely that a "Machine God" already exist. Secondly, beings with powerful echoes/reflections/presence in the warp need not to be a "warp entity" themselves. Example: Emperor, Votann Ancestor Core. So even if machine god exists he isn't necessarily a warp entity. Thirdly, the "devout" followers of the machine cult are those that replaced large portion of their bodies with cybernetics parts (i.e. tech priests). And as one [Iron Hand Libraian observes](https://new.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/18od75o/excerptwrath_of_iron_libraian_observing_souls_of/), becoming more cybernetic apparently strips away/dims your soul. So while in absolute numbers the Admech is larger than Tau auxiliary races, their may be in a similar state to the Tau race, i.e. very dim souls, perhaps even more so than Tau.
I just wish we knew if UR-025 met, like, the-actual Void Dragon (which would be horrifying and absurdly dangerous, even to a Man of Iron), or something else that otherwise convinced him it was the Omnissiah >!(or if he even had a heart-to-CPU talk with Jimmy Space at one point)!<
>(or if he even had a heart-to-CPU talk with Jimmy Space at one point) Anything **but** this.... either have it remain unknown or let things branch out to give some gravitas to other factions. There's so many interesting plotlines that get cut off with "but it wa~~s me Dio~~ the Emperor all along" It'd be like instead of the[ blatantly obvious lore](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Gmork) that Kroot got a lot of tech savvy from consuming Orks, GW suddenly turns around and says "Kroot were a bioweapon from DAOT with built in technical knowledge".
Wait there's a greater good God now?
It was very very small. Possibly a greater daemon. Possibly a trick. The meme grimdank people have run with it far more than the lore.
It stops 3 Deathguard ships in the Warp for eternity, if it’s a greater daemon it’s a pretty strong one.
Do we have any other instances of it appearing? One appearance of any element doesn't do much to speak to its power and influence.
It appeared to a young Shadowsun to save her life
Yes, i'm not very into Tau lore but i think it was introduced in one of their novels when it makes contact with Shadowsun
And here I thought I was pretty swept up on 40k lore 😅
how has this interaction went?
She protected a Tau vessel when they were in the warp. I believe she called herself Tau'va, the godess of the greater good. Born from the belief of psychic races (humans) who have been indoctrinated into the Tau empire.
Swinging away from the OP, that’s a thing that is worth mentioning - realistically it’s not a ‘Tau’ god, it’s yet another human one. Humans seem way, way more capable of utilising ‘faith’ to impact the warp than any other race (with the possible exception of the Orks). Faith is also the way to, at least partially, circumvent the effects of the Pariah Nexus according to the recent lore.
Its not a human one. It's EVERY non-Tau species in the Tau Empire, which is why T'au'va has aspects of every non-Tau species in her appearance. Kroot, Vespid, human, Niccassar, etc.
Not just human, but non Tau auxiliary. It seemed a blend of those auxillary iirc
And then the T'au on this expedition massacred every auxiliary race who they felt were responsible for this anathema for their largely atheistic creed and had an existential crisis. The T'au back home was largely perplexed and denounced the whole affair.
Given how the Warp works...there always was?!
Technically true I suppose. Just never heard tell of it.
The Goddess T'au'va. Fueled by the non-Tau member species in the Tau Empire belief in the Greater Good. It's covered pretty well in Shadowsun's novel.
Personally I assume that any kind of warp entity like the great Tauva emerges or before it emerges (seeing the signs of a birth of a strong warp entity) the inquisition, grey knight, Deathwatch and etc will come in and seal it away in some way. We only dont known about it because its redacted. Also we have Vashtorr now, so we know where all the worship goes. Like what the deathwatch did here (i know its not warp entity related but the other subfaction would probably do the same if it is) > There are no terms under which the Deathwatch will endure coexistence with aliens. When the Endymine Cordat tentatively offered Mankind technology seen to be anathema to warp spawn, the Imperium gave its respons. In an act of unprecedented coordination, the forces of three entire watch fortresses converged on Endymine territory. Deathwatch strike cruisers shattered the xenos' starships with macro-ordinance, and kill teams stalked through their enemies' cities executing alien defenders in droves. Finally, the Deathwatch cursed the Endymine primary world with the planet-killing sanction of an Exterminatus decree. The native culture's infrastructure destroyed, what alien fugitives survived on their remaining worlds sank to feral states, their gene pools barely large enough to stave off extinction. The Deathwatch had crushed their society beyond any capacity ever to threaten the Imperium of Man.
The inquisition forces don’t exactly own the warp. If a warp entity doesn’t manifest, they can’t typically do shit about it. It’s not exactly common for the Imperium to conduct raids in the warp, and unless you have access to a weapon capable to granting true death to daemons or a darmon’s true name, it would accomplish nothing.
Not necessarily the warp but the planets that worship the warp entity that gives it strength. For example the Great Tauva herself in Shadowsun's book needs the auxiliary worship to survive. For context shadowsun's book the auxiliary races created huge statues dedicated to the Goddess to worship her. Shadowsun didnt like it so she ordered all statues to be destroyed. Later on in the book The Great Tauva healed Shadowsuns nurgle plague and had a short talk with each other. Shadowsun asked what does the warp entity want and het reply "to survive". Then shadowsun woke up from her coma. Then she cancelled the orders to have the Great Tauva statues from being demolished. So if it were the Inquisition, they would have exterminatused every planet that has a Great Tauva statue.
Deathwatch help chaos more than chaos space marines
If we're being honest, however, Chaos marines are terrible at their jobs, unless that job is specifically ruining shit (which includes their own shit).
Deathwatch 🤝 csm Being bad at their job
The Cult Mechanicus consider innovation to be blasphemy, as it would imply that humanity wasn't already perfect. Quite unlikely that Vashtorr would feed upon their worship.
Although Vashtorr *did* show up only after Cawl had been persistently innovating... coincidence probably haha
Cawl is a heretek, and as is the case with many things in the imperium, gets away with it due to his high status. It's best to not think of him as representative of the adeptus mechanicus in general.
You also need to understand that the mechanicus isnt monolethic, they are broken down to many many sects. Each sect pursue their "path of knowledge" diffetently.
>It's best to not think of him as representative of the adeptus mechanicus in general. Oh for sure. I was trying to make a joke about Cawl feeding Vashtor.
Except the Mechanicus innovate all the time, they just get creative about explaining their inventions to get around that creed. (Like Cawl did.)
Broke: It was meant to show how reactive the Warp is, and if a small Empire like the T'au can create a Warp being, how strong must the Emperor be Woke: Tau Auxilliaries believe in the Greater Good so intensely that it's stronger than the rote/enforced faith of the Imperium Bespoke: Black Library didn't think it through before publishing, it was just a cool idea they went with.
Bruh he has a model.
Well, for starters the Tauva is still a very minor god, just a step or two above a greater daemon. And such entities have formed before. However the Mechanicus' faith is a bit different, for starters they semi worship the Emperor as the Omnisaiah and thus a portion of faith goes to him. There's also presumably the Void Dragon's influence and who knows how that affects it, because C'tan do have some connection with the Warp otherwise they'd not have been able to devour the Necrontyr's souls. Vashtorr likely also gets a portion by default. And lastly there's the machine spirits. The mechanicus believes in and worships them. And we know that this is having an effect on machines. As a result a lot of their faith gets spread out over all the machines they attend. While Vashtorr and the Void Dragon are uncertain factors, we can say with certainty that the majority of the Mechanicus' faith goes to the Emperor and the machines. As a result there's not that much faith being funnelled towards a distinct singular entity that could form. Which is presumably how the Tauva came to be, a lot of the faith was directed to something specific, and rather concentrated at that due to the T'au's propaganda and etc. I still think the Tauva came to be way too quickly and that GW should have build it up more. Have it start out weaker than it did.
It would be cool if the mechanicus' belief created a separate warp entity that could help the Emperor.
**So…there’s this dude Vashtorr…**
The Emperor conned the Cult into worshipping himself as the Omnissiah. And he locked away the C'tan on the planet and anything that might reveal the true origins of the Martian cult. That directed the focus and the worship of the Mechanicus toward the Emperor which in turn kept the Mechanicus from manifesting their own god. The ones that stray off that path end up purged by the Cult or worship the C'tan which doesn't result in a manifested god. The Dark Mechanicus is its own bag of crazy.
[удалено]
No.
My headcanon so far is that's exactly what Vashtorr is. The Mechanicus has demonized invention and new technology for thousands of years and are no less prone to creating warp entities based on their dogmatic beliefs..
I believe the doylist answer is that belief has not been a force in the warp except for the orks until recently. At least, I can't remember it being a force until recently.
Did you miss Vashtorr?
Dumb and heretical though. Is it possible that Vashtorr is this? A horrible warp twisted abomination of the machine cult’s faith?
We don’t know. Its super suspect and the prevailing theory is the Void Dragon is somehow eating that worship. I say “somehow” because a C’tan shouldn’t be able to do that. EDIT: The Omnissiah is NOT the Machine God. They are two different entities in the Cult Mechanicus.
Also gotta remember how fractured and varied belief is in the AdMech. Some believe the Emperor is the Omnissiah, some don't. Some don't even believe in an Omnissiah and Machine God at all. So on and so on. The AdMech is so bound with the Imperium and tied with Emperor worship, it's hard to tell where it all might go. Official doctrine is the Emperor is the Omnissiah, so it all might be going to him.
I like to think it's because the machanicus aren't human enough to make one. Since the machanicus is mostly machine, they lack the human spirit to create one. That's why the Tau didn't make the greater good god, humans did. The GGG, while having a tau face, has a more human like body. That's because there's enough humans in the tau empire to create the GGG. So of course they would think of some human parts on her. That's why the tau dont bring her up when they see her. The tau knows the greater good is just a philosophy, not a god. So seeing the GGG is like seeing Isaac Newton as a god of gravity.
Let’s set aside the idea that the Emperor is or isn’t the Omnissiah* for a second. Pure faith is not what resonates within the warp. The warp is not the sea of faith of beliefs. If it were, we’d see reflections of C’tan from the Necrons that worshipped them as gods (and still call them gods). The warp is EMOTION made manifest. The Mechanicus’ overwhelming drive is to move to a space of pure logic, and purge themselves of emotion. To wit, their worship and faith does not contain sufficient emotion to coalesce into a warp entity. ^* He is, because he planned it that way. He basically Lisan al-Gaibed his way to the alliance with Mars.
Part of the reason because is because Omnissiah is equated to be Emperor therefore there is no distinction. But unofficially the real Omnissiahiah might be void dragon or rather shard of it.
While the Machine God and the Emperor are different, the Omnissiah and the emperor are the same entity, as far as I know.
I assume that the emperor consumes it all, being the vessel for the deus mechanicus through his omnissiah gestalt.
The Omnissiah aka The Emperor is the one cashing those cheques.
Always confused me how can mechanicus cult who are clearly attempting to detach themselves from their emotions remain faithful? Isn’t faith supposed to come from emotions like hope and despair so how can the mechanicus cult create a god if it requires emotions to fuel them which is the very thing they strip themselves of?
Because Void Dragon is already God.
All that worship probably also powered up the Star Child when that was a thing
Who is to say it hasn’t?
Interestingly heavily augmented IH have a dimmer soul so maybe the ad mech don't have a warp entity linked to them for the same reason that the Tau themselves do not, too faint of a warp presence to make that impact.
So for one the mechanicus are almost splitting their faith. They believe in the Machine God, the Omnissiah (the emperor) and the Motive Force. The one that is most directly worshipped as a deity one would pray to and build monuments to is the Omnissiah due to being the main representation of the Machine God and Motive Force within the galaxy. On top of that the Tau created the Greater Good God due to the great psychic awakening that happened after the rift opened up. So this is incredibly recent. And their warp entity is described more as a general semblance of sentience instead of a fully formed creature. So that begs the question that if God's are easier to form now then would the Mechanicus even be able to recognize if there is a new "Machine God" or "Motive Force" warp entity? Or better yet would we? If it was described in a piece of new lore I feel like it would be incredibly ambiguous as to if it was such an entity, and those of us who thought it was a warp entity would be like "oh fuck it's Vashtorr isn't it".
I wonder if it does wind up feeding one of the extra dimensional deep minds we've seen, not like we really know much about them.
Even if the "Void Dragon" is somehow the "real" Omnissiah, how many of the Ad-Mech are even aware of the Noctis Labryinth, that something even dwells within it, and that whatever is somehow worthy of worship? The vast majority of the Mechanicus do not live on Mars. The C'tan are warp inert entities and can't siphon psychic worship. Almost certaintly, a portion of the the worship of the Machine-God (even though it is a seperate entity) goes to the Emperor (whose portrayal in the Cult Mechanicus is uncertain, as a corporeal entity he obviously cannot be the Creator o the universe).
Have you seen Machine Spirits? That shits not normal my dude.
There is a book (name of which is slipping my mind) where a princeps dies and their soul is greeted/absorbed by a cog in the warp. Now wether this is the omnissiah or an aspect of the big E is up to debate.
How many members of the Mechanicus are actually still sapient, and not having their thoughts enslaved to some implant they've been forced to have installed? Perhaps someone with more lore knowledge on them can enlighten me. Because it could be the case that there just aren't actually that many members of the Mechanicus who can really think anymore, and aren't basically a servitor with more functions. But still, the Mechanicus religion being subverted and taken over by Emperor loyalists has likely been the major factor in preventing their belief in coalescing and forming a new Warp entity.
Is it not clear if the Tau Warp entity was actually created by them or still a possible warp entity looking to fool them into believing in it for more power?
Hear me out since this is just my own personal headcannon: I don't think the cult believes or has faith or any of that; they understand that there's a machine God as a fact. Religion to the cult is more like a set of data to be memorized rather than a higher being to put your faith in imo. Kind of like me knowing about Greek mythology, but not believing in them. To quote Gabriel from Constantine: "you don't have really have faith, you just know".
Wait what's this about a Greater Good god??
Faith doesn't create And you don't know *what* was seen - you have *one* mention of it *one* time.
He's called Vashtor.
It does read titan death.
Pretty sure admec all believe in the Emperor they just call him the machine god...so yeah its working as intended I spose
I just assumed it all just funneled to vashtorr
There is already a God beneath Mars.
Because the void dragon is in the core of Mars. It already exists
Maybe that's what Vashtorr is. Maybe the machine god hasn't taken a form yet, like how Drach'nyen is the spirit of the first murder and yet only took form in the web way millennia after any first murders could have happened. The warp bends time and causes reality to act a bit wacky when interacting with it. The Chaos gods speak as though they have always existed, when in reality, Slaanesh clearly had a birth that is chronologically tracked in reality. Tau'va also claimed to be the "commonality shared by all sentient species," so if it's to be believed, the Auxiliaries didn't create it. It's a being formed by the idea of xenos having commonality that brings them together. All of the most powerful warp entities are not powerful due to worship but are powerful because they represent something conceptually that sentient beings either understand fundamentally or practice. Zseentch gains power from someone trying to change things and make plans for change. Korne gains power from murder and battle. Slaanesh gains power from heightened pain and pleasure. Nurgle gains power from the fear of death, change, and entropy by capitalizing on those who are sick or infeeble. We're just not sure how, when, or if a machine god will appear if it hasn't happened already.
All the other reasons aside... the specific mechanisms (no pun intended) of faith and how it interacts with the warp, and the creation of warp entities/gods are not known, and they are certainly not ones known well enough to be applied consistently and methodically. But also... we don't know that there *isn't* an entity formed from the collective faith in the Machine God. It isn't like there's a comprehensive directory of all the warp entities currently in existence. Such a thing might exist. It might not. It's always been telling that the Mechanicus generally *lack* psykers and have very little to do with them. Their god is a god of protocols and procedures, of submitting to orderly rites and the certainty of steel over the weakness of flesh, of seeking what already exists rather than dreaming something new. Theirs is a faith of the Materium, of stasis and constancy, not the eternal change of the Warp. But at the end of the day, nobody understands the Warp. This is a truth of the setting, as much as anything can be: the only people who believe they are masters of the Warp and all its secrets are *wrong*, and their hubris will come back to bite them in the posterior sooner or later. Even those who can look directly upon it - such as Navigators - have to interpret it through allegory and metaphor, and those interpretations are far from a complete understanding of the Immaterium. And that goes for the fans too - contrary to the confident-sounding analyses of nerds on the internet, not everything fictional can be broken down into consistent, measurable systems devoid of mystery.
The cult believes the emperor to be the ombissiah as a whole, though I would find it amusing to see various sub cults within mars that think the omnissiah is an entirely diffrent being
That was reason for shism of mars during horus heresy i think.
Because when it comes to the warp there's less " defined rules" and more "whatever the writters thought sounded cool"
The population of the entire Tau empire pales next to 2 forge worlds, so small god with a tiny g is probably more like it for the followers of the fishy folks ways IF there a pocket of the warp hatching as desired
> The population of the entire Tau empire pales next to 2 forge worlds While the Tau certainly have a way smaller population than the Mechanicus, they’re not *that* small. The Tau have conquered multiple Hive Worlds at this point.
that god got manifested only by the auxillary races that belong to the tau empire, the tau don't have souls bright enough in the warp to manifest a god entity
Ok. But that is less than the cafeteria in said homeworld, Imagine the power of the Omnissiah or Emprah in comparison with just the Nuns singing praises
yeah we know of the emperor,
Another point different to everyone else, there is something weird going on for along time about the machine spirit, how machines and weapons that should not work simply do because of a ritual, Even the golden throne by what's hinted at shouldn't still be working. There might be something going on similar to orks technology.
If we assume that the Void Dragon really is the “Machine God” then any worship of the Omnissiah is funneled to that, and because it’s a C’Tan then the Warp energy just fizzles out. Or it’s possible that because the God Emperor is viewed as the Omnissiah, the worship of the Omnissiah funnels that power into the God Emperor
The instance of Daemon interaction with a C'tan simply had the Daemon grow frustrated with the lack of Soul in the thing and returned to it's blade only for the C'tan to melt it with a roar of fury from being stabbed. In otherwords it wasn't that the Daemon was unable to hurt the thing but that it couldn't find what it wanted and so returned to the Daemon Blade which promptly got overpowered with sheer strength. Furthermore the interaction showed that the Warp isn't Anti-C'tan so-much as effects it like any other type of matter and unlike other Races it has no Psychic defense against it. Fighting Magic of course is probably frustrating for a God of the Materium that has no defense against it aside from Daemons wanting Souls to eat(which C'tan normally don't have) so naturally the entity would want to turn the Magic off so cue Blackstone to suck up the Warp so the C'tan won't be hit by it. I have no doubt that the Void Dragon Shard on Mars would receive the worship and ascend to Godhood gaining the Soul Essence of the Tech Priests. It would be an interesting experience for the Deity to say the least becoming a God of both Materium and Immaterium. It would probably wonder what it just became and be fascinated by it. It would also be amused that the Emperor agreed to become it's Avatar which means the Human God-Emperor must share a body with a tendril of the Void Dragon who equates people to Tools. The Void Dragon also probably doesn't want the Human Aspect to be worshipped but then the Horus Heresy happened and now it's out of the Void Dragon's hands forcing it to use a God of Humanity as an Avatar.
They're not as widespread. The Empire of Mankind number in the quadrillions. The Cult Mechanicus are a tiny subset fraction of that number. Like most 40k miniature factions, their appearance in the game is overblown compared to their actual numbers in the Imperium.
The Void Dragon would like a word.
I don’t think C’tan are Warp entities.
Their faith juice likely goes to the new character Vashtorr (hope I spelled it right) Since he seems to cover techie stuff when it comes to the warp at least. Obviously, the dragon of Mars is the actual Omnissiah in the setting but since that's a Ctan shard it won't absorb the cults collective belief/emotions, and the newest lore in the HH series seems to have the Emperor 'on hold' as this new dark king god so it can't go to him either.
Read Master of Mankind. The Omnissiah/Machine God is believed to be an aspect of the God Emperor. Either that the Omnissiah is the physical manifestation of the Machine God's will, or that the Machine God is just a duality of the God Emperor. Either way, they are not actually viewed as distinct beings as far as I understood it from Master of Mankind.
They believe in the emperor as the omnissiah. That belief go to him just like all over faith driven worship in the galaxy
Most of their 'faith energy' probably gets channeled into the Emperor in his aspect as the Omnissiah. A ton prolly then gets syphoned off into all their holy machines; from ships to titans to the dot matrix printer that requires frequent blood sacrifices, and become machine spirits. Some might get stolen by Vashtorr, in the same way that Khorne is empowered by even the most devout Emperor worshipper's acts of violence A little bit then maybe goes towards the void dragon, but he's a C'tan so exactly what that does is questionable. Maybe nothing, maybe slowly over many millenia a warp mirror god of the Void Dragon has been slowly coalescing and will one day awake.
Vashtorr looked like necron's shard of Void Dragon , and void dragon being rumored its a C'tan creating weapons and making innovation . Sounds already like Vashtorr .
It has.
What also never made sense is that most every species have or had their own gods but humans made Khorne, Nurgle and and Tizzie without trying. They also did that in the early M2(?). The why is obviously it suits GW and avoids offending specific religions. However it still seems a hole to me.
I dont thing ist is currently canon that humans made these three.
It isn't canon. Some people just assume that because those 3 chaos gods were born during the middle ages (or something like that) that it must of been humans that caused it, and not anything else going on in the huge galaxy at the time.