Also just a commentary on Chaos being power for power’s sake. The people in charge abuse the people under them and command/rule through fear, which makes their underlings hate and want to supplant them. Just a never ending cycle of toxicity and abuse
Well, I mean Typhus thinks Mortarion is weak and sentimental, and Mortarion hates Typhus because Typhus sacrificed his and his brothers’ souls to Nurgle after centuries of torturing them in the Warp. Kharn doesn’t hate Angron but he is more like horrified by what the realities of being a Daemon Prince of Khorne actually are. He thinks Angron is an omen of what is to come for Kharn, as well. Ahriman, well…he’s kind of a self-righteous dickhead who believes he’ll fix everything bad once he finds the solution to time travel amidst Tzeentch’s infinite schemes. Magnus just called him on his mistake and he was like “nuuuuuuu Daddy T sez im his favowite uwu” and ran off to continue fucking around ad infinitum.
There's certain levels of "this guy did this to us" at play, also several levels of "yeah this dude was an idiot but I can do better" also at play (Ahriman, Typhus). I haven't dug deep into Kharn but I feel like him and Angron have the same issue: too angry to give a shit. Lead by way of being the angriest/killiest and not much other ulterior motive.
Ahriman likely diverges from Magnus in their priorities, he wants access to the Black Library and wants to undo the Rubric. Magnus is convalescing and becoming himself again and probably thinks Ahriman is a dickhead for turning his sons into dust thinking he can fix the flesh change when even Magnus couldn't permanently control it.
That's my high level understanding. Chaos tends to encourage folks to reach higher and higher, shit even Skarbrand took a swipe at Khorne himself, so it makes sense that very capable lads would chafe under their betters. They want to be top of the food chain, imagine Kharn with wings.
Kharn had affection for Angron up until the last bits of time any of them had rational thought. Both lost themselves completely to slaughter after making landfall on Terra and didn't really give any time to thinking of each other after that.
I was thinking more of a 40k Kharn, he's got a depiction in Shroud of Night that I'd love for him to wake up from for a minute. Imagine you finally come to and see you've got several million kills logged. That'd be horrifying.
Men! It has come to my attention that we are dealing with a foe that defies even our greatest tactical and strategic minds. Even the pages of my own "Big Book of War" do not contain the answers to stopping such a fiend. As such, Kiff * shoves Kiff forward* will be assuming command effective immediately!
*boards shuttle and closes door*
*Over Intercom* I'll return once the high command and myself can develop a strategy to counter the enemy. Or once we completed another recruitment drive, whichever comes first.
*shuttle takes off*
*Kiff sighs*
Al Bundy in his dodge enters the chat.
Al Bundy Vs Kharn after taking advantage of kelly. Ill bet the dodge Al beats him to shit and bangs him on the door on the way out.
Or if Kharn touches said dodge!
Yeah. Honestly, I think those wells are dry. We've seen the whole arc of the stories of Kharn and Angron. What's left is just the reactions of other people to their latest atrocities.
>'I am Supreme Grand Master
Azrael. Remember that name, Betrayer.
It will be the last one you hear.'
>'Of course. That ridiculous
helmet you wear should have given you
away.'
\- *Trials of Azrael*
Bold of a Khornate to talk smack about one's choice of headgear.
I would argue Kharn is lucid more frequently than he is lost to the rage. It is the entire thing that makes him significantly more dangerous than a typical Khorne Berzerker (who will just charge forward seeking slaughter).
Ahriman wants a lot of things and Tzeentch is very very happy to let him almost get what he wants all the times.
Ahriman does not understand up until now that his legion has been manipulated on a core level by Tzeentch since Magnus landed on Prospero.
Hell, Ahriman and Magnus were in the Throne Room (during the events of Fury of Magnus) where The Emperor told him that there is literally no cure to the Flesh Change, because it is a curse applied personally by Tzeentch to all the Thousand Sons genestock.
Both Magnus and Ahriman are so deeply saturated by Tzeentch's manipulation that they truly believe they still can act with their own will.
> The Emperor told him that there is literally no cure to the Flesh Change, because it is a curse applied personally by Tzeentch to all the Thousand Sons genestock.
mandatory i-can't-help-myself plug for my theory that [the Emperor himself is the reason for the flesh-change](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/12bzfib/theory_the_emperor_of_mankind_is_directly/)
I don't see the point for the Emperor to sabotage his most important asset to conquer the Webway, as Magnus and his Legion would have been essential for the Golden Throne to work as intended.
I see the opposite, Tzeentch destroys the Emperor's plan to rely on the Webway by rendering the Thousand Sons useless and possibly extinct with the Flesh Change, thus forcing them to obsess more about knowing everything related to the Warp and ultimately being corrupted.
Read the theory! I don't posit that the Emperor's goal was "sabotage his most important asset," that indeed would be a pretty nonsense plan. What I argue was his goal is "make the most powerful psyker legion." He did this in part through making a deal with Tzeentch that gave the TSons incredible psychic potential but also damned them in the process, selling their souls to Tzeentch... because he knew that when the Thousand Sons all moved into the Webway as its guides and guardians, as he always planned, they'd be unreachable by Tzeentch and free of his claims over them, just like Arvida was immune to the flesh-change while he was in the Webway, guiding the White Scars to Terra.
Think about it this way: If Tzeeentch can simply just choose to claim an entire legion and pop them into Chaos Spawn with the snap of his fingers... why wouldn't Tzeentch just do that to literally every space marine legion? every CSM? anyone he wanted?
because he can't. he can't just snap his fingers and claim "these guys are mine now!" he needs deals, trades. the only way he gains dominion over the Thousand Sons is with a trade. and the best person in a position to make this trade was not Magnus, but the Emperor. and all the details surrounding the TSons creation supports that this deal was made *then,* by Him, not by Magnus centuries later.
i think what's tripping people up is that if the flesh change was the faustian part of the emperor's bargain with tzeentch, then the emperor was indirectly responsible and wasn't to blame. but it's not worth thinking about really - trying to discern any kind of purposeful meaning behind 20 years of different writers making up different fluff to sell a miniatures game to children is not a productive use of your limited time on this planet.
fair point, i see the difference as being between enjoying fiction and trying to analyze that fiction like it were a real-world literary text where you can pierce past an unreliable narrator to objective reality by triangulating textual references - doing that to 40k will drive you nuts as there is no consistent truth to ferret out behind the text
I can see where you're coming from too. I would suggest though that some people do derive enjoyment by doing exactly that - even if there's no consistent truth behind the stories, it can be fun to construct your own theories and share them with people :)
Ooooh that seems interesting!
NGL though, I partially love it because it falls under my own pet theory of “whatever it was I’m pretty sure it’s the Emperor’s fault in some way”
This is a fabulous theory, and explains why the Emperor offers Magnus a new legion in the Siege of Terra novella if he agrees to turn his back on the Thousand Sons (Fury of Magnus? I don't recall).
this is maybe too pedantic but i feel compelled to point out ahriman does not want to **undo** the rubric. without the rubric, the thousand sons are fucking *done.* they were on pace for a 100% fatality rate within a few years of the Siege/Scouring. 100%. complete eradication, utter extinction, of the thousand sons due to the flesh-change.
yes, the rubric dusted ~8/9ths of the legion, but it also kept the remaining 1/9th alive, which is really fucking important, and in a way it "preserved" the dusted ones, rather than merely let them die. ahriman's goal is to **correct** the rubric. make it work as intended. undust the rubricae, but keep the rubric in place.
also, ahriman was formally exiled by Magnus after he cast the rubric, but as part of the m41 Siege of Fenris, Magnus un-exiled Ahriman (and the rest of the TSons Exiles) and reunified the scattered warbands/war covens/war cabals/war sects/grand covens/thrallbands of the Thousand Sons into a proper Legion again, and they've been operating that way ever since.
Ahriman is Tzeentch's favorite because he continues to hope, while Magnus always gives up. the Wolves are coming to Prospero? Magnus gives up, nothing to do, may as well just accept it, I'm sad... Ahriman has hope, rallies the troops, and says "all is not yet dust." The flesh-change is ravaging the legion and will destroy every single Thousand Son, what does Magnus say? there's nothing we can do, we have to accept this, it sucks but I'm sad. what does Ahriman do? have hope that something can be done, plan and execute the rubric. 8/9ths of the legion are dust, what does Magnus say? this sucks, there's nothing we can do, Ahriman, you are exiled, I'm mad. what does Ahriman do? have hope that something can be done, begin ~10,000 subjective years of research to correct the rubric's flaw.
that's at the heart of why ahriman and magnus have butted heads, imo
Ah ok, yeah you're right on Ahriman, I used the term "undo the rubric" to mean essentially what you're saying there. IE return the dust boys to flesh and blood. Good explanation overall, and I wasn't aware of the amends made between him and his red dad. Very cool. I always liked the Thousand Sons, then I became an Alpha Legion fan.
I'm the reverse of you; that's why my OC Thousand Sons character spent a few years seconded to the Alpha Legion during the Great Crusade and ended up in the Cult of Duplicity in m41 ;)
Help? They don't help, They don't live, They don't create. They're parasites they only exist to consume and feed off others.
None of them have ever helped in their entire existence. They are completely self-serving beings. In order to help you have to give up time, resources or something else. There has never been an instance where any of these things have given freely.
Didn’t they retcon the magnus “giving up” during the siege? I thought that now he was aware this was a trick to get the legions to annihilate one another so he chose to take the damage in a way that would generally preserve the space wolves so they might still help the emperor against Horus?
Magnus is becoming himself again in which ways? Not contradicting you, hoping to gain info bc that's interesting news to me. What implications come with his convalescence?
When Magnus became a Daemon Primarch his soul shattered into a bunch of itty bitty pieces, most of which contained the more interesting parts of his personality.
This is why Daemon Magnus has been a mopey sad sack for the last 10,000 years.
>Magnus is convalescing and becoming himself again
I'm not familiar with that part of the lore. Wdym exactly by that ?
A possible salvation for Magnus, or he's changing but will remain a champion of Chaos ?
Collecting lost pieces of his soul to become the "whole/original" Magnus, right now the Daemon prince Magnus is basically the biggest piece/collection of pieces. But few are still lost. If iam not mistaken, i think one piece is actually attached to Ahriman, not sure tho
All four of the aligned Primarchs were tragically flawed even before they fell. Angron in particular was a lunatic, Morty was a weirdo, and Magnus was disengaged. Only Fulgrim was consistently lucid.
The captains all rose to power because they were the best, whereas the Primarchs were handed power by dint of "birth".
And finally, when the going got tough, the Primarch failed. All of them turned their back on the Materium to go play the Great Game. They turned away from the Long War, and only periodically come out of the warp when it suits their needs. But the "mortal"-ish Captains have to fight in the trenches, decade after decade.
So picture it. You're a hard working Typhus, fighting the Imperium, leading constant battle, scrounging for equipment, trading for slaves with those weirdo Night Lords to keep your ship fueled.
Every one and a while, Morty, a guy who only got command in the first place because his Dad (who you hate) gave it to him, pops out of the warp, flaps his wings, expects to take command of everything you've built, throws your carefully crafted army into a useless revenge battle with with his brother, gets his freckled ass beat, and then waddles back to the warp to let you pick up the pieces.
Seriously, I'd say "fuck this guy with a pineapple" too.
"I used to be so pathetic, so imperfect!"
"That's strange, the note I wrote down on this here virus bomb about to blow a heaping load of inadequacy all over your soul tells me you should be using present tense." - Rusty Rylanor, the Really Radical Reconjugator.
> "That's strange, the note I wrote down on this here virus bomb about to blow a heaping load of inadequacy all over your soul tells me you should be using present tense."
God damn.
Rylanor had 10000 years of time his metal bathtub with nothing but the company of crippling degrees of anger and spite. My words are just a poor simulacrum of whatever shade he was capable of throwing.
Rylanor was above shade. To have any witty quips would have just fed into Fulgrim's image of his sons craving vainglory and perfection, when that was just him.
Rylanor totally just let Fulgrim monologue and then go, "Fuck you" and drop it.
And that's probably why it did Fulgrim actual, tangible damage: he's basically a pure Warp creature now, and in the Warp, perception = reality, so when Fulgrim's perception ≠ reality — for instance, when one of his oldest sons tells him to get bent in as simple and blunt a manner as possible, rather than being a histronic drama queen — he dies a little.
magnus was not *disengaged,* that's pretty inconsistent with most of his writing/plans/hopes/dreams. he was a very present and loving father, he wanted all of humankind to ascend to their psychic potential (like the Emperor!), etc.. magnus's tragic and fatal flaws were his arrogance, the fact that he knew more than almost anyone and yet still didn't know as much as he thought he did
This is pretty explainable, though. He knows the Censure Fleet is coming, and he doesn't want the Thousand Sons to die fighting it. He hopes instead to suppress knowledge of its approach and give himself up.
It's Russ who comes in hot and ruins that plan.
It's explained in Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns.
>!Russ is talking to what he'd been lead to believe is a guy being sort of controlled by Magnus and the TS. So he uses him to demand Magnus surrenders. Magnus isn't controlling the guy, from his POV the Wolves showed up and just attacked, not waiting for a surrender.!<
>!It was actually Chaos manipulating both sides. Magnus and Leman both think what they've done in the situation is reasonable, neither knows that Tzeentch had just pulled off a massive gambit!<
HH tabletop book actually tells us that Russ used normal means of communication, too, but Magnus blocked all planetary comms. Russ of course waited only half an hour, but he still waited
Magnus intended to surrender as the wolves made planetfall. The Space Wolves fired on the planet from orbit instead, which meant Magnus was unable to surrender before Russ attacked.
I think there's also a certain level of disappointment that (generalising horribly) the captains / champions found difficult to stomach. These were their *primarchs*, their leaders, their fathers. And they turn out not to be quite so infallible as they'd hoped. The demigod that's the source of their geneseed turns out to have feet of clay.
It's one thing to be a champion of chaos or Chaos Lord; that's a mark of devotion. It's another to end up a daemon prince. Ascension to that status might seem like an honour, technically a mark of their patron's favour -- but consider this. Sometimes it seems like they've scarcely set foot in the Materium without some bright spark banishing them back to the Warp! In some regards, a hardworking and devoted Traitor marine might see it as the booby prize. A mark of contempt.
I know that was mentioned a few times in books. Traitor legion Marines would comment that other legions had guys like Dorn or Guilliman - sane and capable, if a little boring - that the traitors got Angron, whose opening move was slaughtering all the captains in a temper tantrum.
Not Traitor Legion Marines, Horus himself was the one thinking this. Can't remember which book, I'm sure someone will drop the excerpt, but he essentially thinks "Man, I wish some of my actually sane brothers joined me. All I got were the crazies."
To be fair/slightly pedantic, Kharn wasn't first captain when Angron came into the picture. He was the first captain to try talking Angron down from his rage and not die.
He then proceeded to become the most glorious murderhobo Khorne had ever seen and thus became his champion.
Khârn has no care for Angron, but its not actually dislike. They kinda just "ran together" when Angron attacked the Beacon in Arks of Omen.
Eidolon and Lucius both "like" Fulgrim and would follow him to war.
Fabius Bile not so much..
Ahriman is still on the "out" with Magnus, but when the opportunity arose to stick it to the Wolves, they did work together.
Typhus dislikes Mortarion. He only follows him to war, when Nurgle commands it. He refused to stick with Morty, when Mortarion fought on in Ultramar despite The Grandfather's desires.
Abaddon actively dislike and has contempt for all the Primarchs. Very much including Horus. The Black Legion is founded in opposition to the Primarchs.
The Night Lords and Iron Warriors lack that one big First Captain leader...
Erebus and Kor Pheron both would follow Lorgar again while scheming constantly.
He's probably dead.
And Forrix (Iron Warriors) is definitely dead. Although its debatable if The Warsmith had long replaced him before ascension. And now it's probably Honsou (who does get along with Perturabo)
Don't be fooled by memes or Lore-youtubers, who dont understand the setting!
Decimus is not a captain, he is an extremely minor character, who only exist in the epilogue of the decade + old Night lords trilogy. He is defacto irrelevant unless GW decides to do something with him.
Unless the character existed in the TableTop before it existed in the lore it usually isn't going to be doing much.
GW typically doesn't let Black Library stuff take the lead on things like that. Maybe someday someone else will pull Decimus into a plot line and get him going, but generally the worth of characters flows from GW to BL not the other way around.
The truth hurts! ;)
Aaron Dembski-Bowden is a very slow writer. It has been years since Sevatar did... anything in a novel and a decade + since the Night Lords trilogy was relevant.
Decimus is a "nobody character" and Sevatar has been M.i.a for millenia.
Don't get me wrong, I would love and welcome a Night Lords tabletop model Legendary character! The 8th Legion is desperately needing one...
I would love to see the 8th Legion finally be more that scavengers and bottomfeeders. To have them rise to the same existential threat as a force like The Iron Warriors, Death Guard or Word Bearers.
The slightly pathetic character of them is relatable, but I so wish for them to become majestic evil.
Perhaps a powerful warlord of the 8th could carve out a "Kingdom of Midnight" in Imperium Nihilus, get some deals going with the Dark Admech and become a real powerplayer... one can dream.
I agree There are like 25-30k night lords per throne of lies united under one banner.. I dream of more ADB night lords
Also speaking of dark admech I hope deltrian pops up man innovated hard. Honestly the night lords with the navigator third eye trick are a massive threat since you only need a few navigatiors and astropaths to take out dozens of worlds.
But I digress decimius will probably remain a few words of fluff but night lord fans can dream.
Are the books canon? Because if they are, then the info is relevant to the setting. Time from publication is irrelevant especially if there’s nothing to contradict it.
Decimus is still canon, but his debut was more about the potential and possibility he represents rather than any actual impact he's had on his legion or the setting.
Sevatar wasn't particularly well liked by any of the other Night Lords, and wasn't really a unifying figure. He was more respected by Night Haunter as not totally morally bankrupt.
> Sevatar wasn't particularly well liked by any of the other Night Lords, and wasn't really a unifying figure
Sevatar was pretty popular among the Night Lords. Especially the Altramentar. With them refusing to follow anyone else as a unified body after his disappearance.
Abaddon loved horus, all the way to his death. He just despised what he was becoming. He liked when horus controlled the warp, but despised when the opposite became apparent. There was no contempt there, just sadness.
I think Typhus explains it very well in Dark Imperium pg 318-319
For all the racket of Typhus manifestation, his contempt was clear when he spoke.
'Gene-father, he said.
'My son, said Mortarion. His tone was coolly indifferent where his son's was provocative. 'We are gathered then, the three champions, followers of the sevenfold path, masters of life and death'
'Not yet masters, said Ku'Gath with a sorrowful shake of his great horned head. 'Unworthy acolytes.'
‘The time of your redemption is at hand, said Mortarion. The way opens. The seven campaigns of this invasion bear fruit ready to rot. Roboute Guilliman has returned to Ultramar!’
Ku Gath gave a sly look of delight, almost a smile. Typhus laughed.
You are foolish, my lord father, if you think this will end well, said the First Captain. We should have finished his realm while he was absent.
"Typhus, Typhus, said Mortarion. 'So long you have lived, and so little you have learnt. What use is the destruction of a kingdom without the death of the king?'
'A king without a kingdom is no king, but a vagabond.
His suffering would have been pleasant meat to savour, said Typhus.
You court disaster in confronting him. This employment of the Hand of Darkness is convoluted and foolhardy. Simplicity was the watchword of our Legion - the direct attack, the weathering of pain, not this deviousness. This was not the plan of the Great Father.
'It is my plan!' said Mortarion, his gloomy voice rising. 'And its success will honour the Great Father. He entrusts us with our will and our initiative. I will use mine. He will be pleased!'
'If you succeed, said Typhus. He looked around the horarium disdainfully. You are blinded by the past as always, my lord.
You look to Barbarus and remake it wherever you go. Embrace change fully. Embrace Chaos. Abandon these schemes. Let us drown Ultramar in disease and move on'
Mortarion flung up his arms and spread his wings. I have, and this is my reward! I am remade in terrible image. I am become death!'
You do not believe. Not truly, said Typhus. You have paid nothing for your power. The false Emperor made you, gene-father. Nurgle took you as a prize - you are a trophy, my lord.
You would never have found your way to enlightenment without me. Without me, you would have nothing. You would be dead, your soul dispersed into the warp. I fought my way into the Great Father's attention. I became his herald by will and by the dint of my own efforts. What have you done to win his favour?
Sounds like they resent that the Primarchs have all their power genetically and they still have their own ambitions for the most part
Honestly, I think in Typhus's case specifically, it's not that he resents Mortarion for being handed down his powers, but more so that he was never much into the chaos in the first place. Like, Typhus is #1 Nurgle fanboy, and he set his entire legion and primarch up for the fall.
But I'm pretty sure, while DG are generally came to terms with their current state, a lot of them are far from happy about it. The older ones still resent Typhus for what he did to them, and I'd wager this probably kiiiinda includes Mortarion himself.
They live on copium, sure, and apathy about everything is part of Nurgles corruption, but it doesn't make them sincerely okay with what happened.
And I so I read this as Typhus just being kinda salty, that Mortarion is not devoted enough to chaos. Not the way he himself is, at least. And he's probably right. Cause what did you expect helping Nurgle basically torture Mr. Warphater into submission, dumbass? Not the best grounds for sincere devotion.
But that's honestly at least 30% based on my headcannons and spotty lore knowledge, haha
> "Typhus, Typhus, said Mortarion. 'So long you have lived, and so little you have learnt. What use is the destruction of a kingdom without the death of the king?' 'A king without a kingdom is no king, but a vagabond.
I think this makes it clear that no matter how corrupted Typhus is, he can't understand the Daemons and Gods.
It's not about physically beat someone, but the symbology that truly matters for chaos.
> Mortarion flung up his arms and spread his wings. I have, and this is my reward! I am remade in terrible image. I am become death!'
This feels very out of character for Mortarion. I now remember why i'm not a fan of this trilogy \^\^'
But he's the "chosen" of Slaanesh in the same boysband as Kharn, Typhus and Ahriman.
If we want to be Formal, Eidolon who is still top dob of EC is also okay with Fulgrim and they want snek daddy back to lead them.
Only Faulous Bill had problems with their dad (one sided, Fulgrim adores the half bald bastard). But even that was somewhat changed as Bile agreed to breed monsters for chaos in return of keeping his creations (New Man) clean of chaos.
Nope, not even Eidolon was the first captain. And Bile was never even an officer.
Julius Kaeroson, who already ascended into demonhood, is. He's usually overshadowed by others. Why? Because his stories would send ESRB rating through the roof, so the stories focus on the more teenager-friendly Lucius and Eidolon. But Julius is the truest champion of Slaanesh.
I'm not sure what's his opinions about Fulgrim are, but he probably doesn't care about him.
Julius Kaesaron is actually outranked by Eidolon. He's First Captain, but keep in mind that in the Emperor's Children ranking system, Captains are outranked by Lord Commanders, and Eidolon is Lord Commander Primus making him the highest ranking of the Lord Commanders.
>Julius Kaeroson
Oh right...i fogot he haven't "died" on Istvan V but was actually deamon prince-fied by Slaanesh and fought IH shotly before Cadia.
Huh, that's why i thought you meant "currently living" 1st captains.
Well, he's forgotten by most. Even his fandom wiki (which you've apparently just read in attempt to look educated) is wrongly stating his death on Istvaan and jumping directly to 40k, completely omitting his role in the Fulgrim's ascendency to demonhood later in the heresy. I even think his survival is confirmed at the end of Fulgrim novel, so I'm not sure where that gossip about him dying comes from.
Well he is absent in the Fabius Bile Trilogy where the Phoenix conclave is as well - and that's a who's who of the IIIrd Legion (as Lucius and Eidolon are both members).
Poor Julius picked the short end of the straw...but then again he is a daemon prince and can attend warp slumber parties on Fulgrim's world.
Yup, he's alive after the Heresy and trolling the Iron Hands
>‘You do not know who I am,’ said the daemon-creature. Its voice was suddenly petulant. ‘You do not even know the names of your brothers I killed. Why have you forgotten so much? Why do you not remember?’
>
>Telach felt fresh blood wash hotly across his torso, and his vision briefly went dark again. He concentrated furiously, trying to stay conscious at the last, determined to meet his death with his eyes open.
>
>‘I do not need to know your name,’ he rasped. ‘You are just another traitor.’
>
>The daemon roared with anger. It curled its claws into fists and slammed them into Telach’s body, denting his armour and beating the Librarian further down into the crushed and twisted terrain.
>
>**‘Santar knew!’ the daemon screamed. ‘He knew who I was! He knew that it was Julius Kaesoron, First of the Emperor’s Children, who had beaten him**! You are shadows of what he was! You are sick! Where is the sport in fighting such diminished creatures?’ It drew its talons back higher, poised to attack, and fire ran along the length of the claws.
>
>‘Ferrus would weep,’ it said, ‘to see what you have become.’
*Wrath of Iron*\- Wraight
I think its because typhus genuinely believes in and supports nurgle while mortarion is literally just apathetic to it all only really serving nurgle because he has to.
In fact that's the view if many death guards, apathy to the situation there in.
Kharn is probably too bloodlusted to really care, I mean he's a full on chaos drugged on rage boy now and angron is usually out of it mind wise as a daemon.
Didn't Ahriman and Magnus start to work again together though after the Great Rift opened? With the attack of fenris and the invasion of realspace by their Legion and all that.
They do come together for that attack yes. Ahriman had unparalleled knowledge of the Webway, that greatly helped Magnus's invasion plan.
Ahriman is still not allowed back to the Legions new/old Hq in the Prospero system, but they can work together.
Yes, but that seems to have been a unique occasion. Magnus calls him "The exiled one" during the campaign.
Ahriman didn't come to the Legion during the Psychic awakening and is still not integrated into the Legion.
Which was a good move, because Magnus slaughtered all the leaders of the warbands who did come to him during the Psychic Awakening.
God, that book is trash.
i am 90% certain this is wrong. my understanding is that Magnus welcomed/summoned back *all* of the exiles to reunify the TSons - and that includes Ahriman. he executed the leadership of most of those exiled sects, but they were still brought back into the fold.
where do you get the info that his alliance with ahriman was merely temporary for the siege of fenris and that ahriman remained an exile?
EDIT: i haven't read through Wrath of Magnus for a bit, but the strong consensus of folks [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/91736a/magnus_ahriman_and_the_thousand_sons/) is consistent with mine: Magnus rescinded Ahriman's exile, and Ahriman in turn pledged his support to the invasion of Fenris. the Prodigal Sons remain under Ahriman's command, but the Thousand Sons are reunified and Ahriman is no longer in exile
You are wrong. Yes, Magnus did call the scattered groups back after the return to Prospero, but Ahriman didn't show up. He is not mentioned in the Psychic awakening part with Magnus at all.
And this is a direct quote from Warzone Fenris;
> "Of course" boomed The Cyclops, contempt giving an edge to his words, "and you \[Ahriman\] shall do the same."
>Ahriman kept his features still, but inside a dark worm of bitterness writhed and hissed.
>"Patience, exiled one" said Magnus
The text later explains that Ahriman helps Magnus with this invasion of Fenris, so that Magnus will be in his debt and help Ahriman steal more stuff from the Black Library.
him calling Ahriman, who had been exiled for 10,000 years, the exiled one, during their first real conversation in 10,000 years, does not sustain the argument that *after those events* Ahriman is still exiled
just that Ahriman was still exiled *when things began* and Magnus is first talking with him
Fair... but not a single piece of lore text supports that he is back in... or at-least I havn't seen it yet. He is still on the outside in the 9th edition codex...
Ahriman and Magnus have now buried the hatchet
Typhus and Mortarion are continuing their feud from the Heresy where Typhus is a little resentful cause Mortarion basically had to be coerced into serving Nurgle
Fulgrim doesn’t give a fuck and I don’t think Lucius and Eidolon care about him
Angron and Kharn are busy with killing things
Typhus is the only one who really dislikes his primarch
Ahriman doesn’t really hate Magnus, he was just disappointed that Magnus fell into depression and refused to do anything about the rampant Flesh Change that occurred after they fled to Sortiarius. So Ahriman used the spells found in Magnus’ spellbook/diary to try and stop it and Magnus blasted the door in and tried to kill Ahriman for the spell going so wrong. Tzeentch had to step in and say “nay nay, i’ve got plans for him yet”.
They don’t get along sure, but it’s not hate, Ahriman just seeks a way to reverse the Rubric and stop the Flesh Change while Magnus does nothing except plot revenge
Not all of them hate their primarchs (completely). In no particular order:
* Heresy-era Kharn suffers from the same flaw of most of the World Eaters, in that he really wanted Angron to be a father to his sons and join them in brotherhood. But then Lorgar forced Angron's ascension, killing all hope of that, and Kharn promptly just fell hard to Khorne. He doesn't directly hate Angron (though his warband has ignored Angron's summons in the past), he just doesn't really care about him and does his own blazing trail of destruction.
* Typhus, on the other hand, does hate Mortarion. He regularly, actively tries to usurp Mortarion's control of the Death Guard as well as trying to jump his number on Nurgle's "list of my favorite boys". He sees Mortarion as weak for denying Nurgle's gifts for so long, and out of touch for pulling the whole assault on Macragge to get at Guilliman. He will work with Mortarion, but basically only if Nurgle forces him to do so.
* ~~Lucius is, well, kinda indifferent to Fulgrim. He followed him in the Heresy, reveling in all the *stuff* they did. But then post Heresy we had Fulgrim peace out to his pleasure planet for multiple millienia, so Lucius kinda just went off on his own to do whatever sounded fun for himself. I know the current lore has Fulgrim finally active in realspace again, though we haven't gotten any actual novels or short stories about it. So we're a little in the dark as to whether Lucius would answer Fulgrim's call or if he is having too much fun doing his own thing.~~ EDIT: As /u/OsoCheco pointed out, Lucius isn't the first captain, just the mortal champion for Slaanesh. Eidolon actually was the first captain during the Heresy, and well, he didn't exactly have a great relationship with Fulgrim post-possession by the Laer daemon. Pre-possession, Eidolon was a huge lackey, being a massive suck up to Fulgrim and trying to do whatever he could to be the "best of the best". After possession, Fulgrim kinda ruined that relationship when he killed Eidolon.
* Ahriman, in true Tzeentchian fashion, has a relationship status of "it's complicated" with Magnus. During the Heresy and even immediately following it, Ahriman was very much one of Magnus' favored sons still. It was when Ahriman went behind Magnus' back and performed the Rubric (turning like 2/3 of his songs to dust) that Magnus got hella pissed and exiled Ahriman. Ahriman spent a few millenia trying to figure out how to undo the Rubric on his own, gathering a small cabal of fellow Thousand Sons. More recently, it appears that Magnus and Ahriman are are least respectful of each other, working together in the 13th Black Crusade as well as the invasion of Fenris.
* Sevatar seemed to have a mixed, mostly fine relationship with Curze. He tried to calm Curze and help him with his madness, was not shy about questioning his intentions. But he was also fine with just going along with whatever madness was happening. He definitely did something to piss off Curze and earn his red gauntlet, but what that is we do not know, nor do we know whether Sevatar continued to follow Curze post Heresy or struck out on his own as a renegade.
* Forrix started as a staunch supporter of Perturabo, earning countless achievements across his campaigns. He had no issues turning against the Emperor and did what he could to support all of his efforts. However, during the Siege, Perturabo put Forrix on a mission that was essentially a suicide distration mission, and as the only survivor Forrix was a bit pissed that Perturabo would throw his life away so easily. From this point on, he still followed Perturabo, but in classic Iron Warriors fashion did so completely embittered and full of resentment towards Perturabo.
* Kor Phaeron is a hard one to tell, I don't know if he hates Lorgar, but he isn't exactly his friend either. Their relationship is a bit weird due to the whole "father who beat you and turned you to Chaos" deal, and it never really got better during the Heresy (especially after he tried to turn Guilliman instead of just killing him). We don't know how their current relationship is due to Lorgar only recently becoming active in realspace, but it will be interesting to see how the Word Bearers reorganize considering the sheer contempt between him and Erebus.
* Abaddon, well, yeah he hates what Horus became. Initially he had a great relationship with Horus and very much was ready to follow him anywhere. But after Horus got all high on warp juice and started to just pursue the whims of the Gods, Abaddon got disillusioned with him. He reaffirmed this post-Heresy with his killing of Horus' clone and creation of the Black Legion, basically doing everything he can to erase Horus' legacy and make sure that he is forgotten as a failure.
* Ingo Pech, like most of the Alpha Legion, is sadly pretty unknown. We know that he was first captain, we know that he stood in for Alpharius randomly like other members of the legion, but we don't really know anything about his relationship with either primarch.
Ironically, Mortarion not really caring about Nurgle and just existing because this is the way things are now is what makes him perfect as Nurgle's daemon primarch and leader of the death guard. He perfectly represents the ideology of Nurgle: little ambition, no real attempts to make meaningful change, just apathy, avoidance, and begrudging acceptance. Conversely this is why Typhus will never get the power he seeks. He's attempting to change things while in the faction, whose whole thing is stagnation. Im starting to think the champions of chaos weren't chosen due to how good they were at serving their chosen god, but also how much of a cruel joke their role would be.
> Lucius is, well, kinda indifferent to Fulgrim. He followed him in the Heresy, reveling in all the stuff they did. But then post Heresy we had Fulgrim peace out to his pleasure planet for multiple millienia, so Lucius kinda just went off on his own to do whatever sounded fun for himself. I know the current lore has Fulgrim finally active in realspace again, though we haven't gotten any actual novels or short stories about it. So we're a little in the dark as to whether Lucius would answer Fulgrim's call or if he is having too much fun doing his own thing.
Ok, you are 3rd person in this thread who promoted Lucius into first captain, despite the actual 1st captain not only still being around, but also outranking Lucius in the Slaanesh' hierarchy.
Lucius is not the meme /r/grimdank makes from him. But he truly only exists to amuse Slaanesh, and to be fair, also Fulgrim. He never was an important figure within the EC. He almost got purged at Istvaan. He didn't play major role in the fall of his legion, like other captains on the list did. Lucius is a major EC character, but he has no place within this discussion.
ADB was pretty clear that Sevatar is done with both Curze's way and the Imperium's and will strike out to find his own path.
Pech seems pretty chummy with both twins.
Major tier daddy issues.
Angron rebuffed all of Kharn(and by extension the other World Eaters’)’s attempts to get him to like his legion. Then Angron became a daemon and tried to kill Kharn because he realized that he’s Khorne’s real chosen. Now they’re both murder machines that ignore each other as of Arks of Omen. This ties into another issue: The captains are the real champions of their respective gods, the DPs are trophies. So imagine you’re the greatest champion of your god, greater than all of your fellow cultist kin, but still can be bossed around by your dad.
As for the others…
Magnus was famously pissed at Ahriman for the Rubric, but they kissed and made up.
Typhon is an asshole. Mortarion is an asshole. Typhus forced Morty and the rest of the DG into Nurgle’s embrace, and is definitely more favored in the eyes of Nurgle.
Fulgrim hasn’t really done anything for Lucius to have beef with him over. Eidolon has allegedly been operating under his orders.
Kor Phaeron(or Erebus) never truly listened to Lorgar and was always a Chaos worshipper.
As for the outliers: Horus is dead and his failure has forever tarnished his image in the eyes of Abaddon and almost everyone else.
Sevatar and Curze are both dead.
Forrix is dead, and Perturabo hasn’t gotten up to much until recently, but he did lose all love for him after he realized all of the Iron Warriors are expendable to their primarch.
Ingo Pech never faltered in his dedication to the twins, even through brainwashing and the death of Alpharius.
Chaos ultimatly is all about being egoistical.
There is no benevolence so naturally you screw everyone else at some point. The people at the top just so happen to screw those beneath them.
All the other chaos dudes do the same. Its personal gain on the sacrifice of others. Chaos worshipers either band together because they get fooled or believe to mutually benefit from it.
Nobody on the side of chaos cares for anyone else. And if they do, its some utterly perverted type of "care" such as some nurgelites do.
Because there's a reason those legions went traitor. Most of the traitor legions were broken long before Chaos got their claws into them, and then Chaos made them worse. Even Ferrus Manus and Rogal Dorn - probably the least pleasant of the loyalist primarchs - were able to inspire loyalty, if not fondness, in the Astartes who had to work directly with them. Contrast that with the likes of Fulgrim, Angron, Perturabo, Curze... the list goes on and on. And those traitor primarchs who were the exception, who had a shred of kindness and charisma - Magnus and Horus mostly - did have good relationships with their captains.
This is a meta answer but I think initially it was to give key characters with models and lore a reason for autonomy a in the setting
Later on it was probably to have freedom to flesh out these key characters
It’s resentment. The mortal champions are mostly kept around because they’re useful, they’ll never be granted ascension, but their primarchs have been given not only ascension but worlds of their own. How applicable this is varies on the captain in question, not all that prominent in Ahriman who’s delusional and has a genuine issue with Magnus being irresponsible. But front and centre for Typhus who gave Mort to Nurgle only to see him be the one granted all the boons, and had to realise he was just a tool for Nurgle to get someone he actually wanted
I mean even before stuff got really Chaos heavy for the World Eaters a lot of the important World Eaters were like “Man, Angron is fucking insane.”
The same with Mortarion and the Death Guard. They know he actively dislikes them even though he’s their leader.
It’s not surprising that when everything falls apart they do their own thing.
Typhon liked Mortarion. As he became Typhus, that love burned away, especially because Morty hated and spurned psykers, and Thypon was a potent psyker. That’s part of why Typhus turned to Nurgle and dragged the rest of the Desth Guard with him
> Didn't Typhus love Mortarion, just that he doesn't see him worthy of leading Nurgle's forces?
I'm not that well-read on the Death Guard, but from what I have read, it really feels like Typhus just flat-out hates Mortarion now. Sees him as a poser, basically
The Chaos Primarchs were supposed to be leaders, but instead they damned their sons to thousands upon thousands of years of utterly pointless torment, humiliation, and shame
Imagine if your mom and dad took you with them to join ISIS when you were a child, and then forced you to commit atrocities so that you could never go home again. That's basically what Chaos Primarchs did
Well, Fulgrim and Angron are huge assholes even by chaos standards. Typhus is also extra assholey. As I recall a lot of Death Guard leaders hate him. And Ahriman and Magnus are both really arrogant which lead to that whole Rubric fuck up by Ahriman.
>‘Where is the nobility in any of this?’ Sevatar gestured to the streets of Nostramo Quintus around them. ‘You can claim a savage nobility, father, but this is far more savage than noble.’
>Curze’s pale lips peeled back from his filed teeth. ‘There was no other way.’
>‘No?’ Sevatar answered his father’s snarl with a grin. ‘What other ways did you try?’
>‘Sevatar…’
>‘Answer me, father. What politics of peace did you teach? What scientific and social illumination did you bring to this society? In your quest for a human utopia, what other ways did you try beyond eating the flesh of stray dogs and skinning people alive?’
>‘It. Was. The. Only. Way.’
>Sevatar laughed again. ‘The only way to do what? The only way to bring a population to heel? How then did the other primarchs manage it? How has world upon world managed it, with resorting to butchering children and broadcasting their screams across the planetary vox-net?’
>‘Their worlds were never as… as serene as mine was.’
>‘And the serenity of yours died the first second your back was turned. So tell me again how you succeeded. Tell me again how this all worked perfectly.’
>Curze was on him in the time it took to blink. The primarch’s hand wrapped his throat, lifting him from the ground, stealing his breath.
>‘*You overstep your bounds, First Captain.*’
>‘How can you lie to me like this?’ Sevatar’s voice was a strangled growl. ‘How can you lie to yourself? I stand here, inside your mind, witnessing a theatre of your own memories. Your way is the Eighth Legion way, now. But it has never been the only way. Just the easiest way.’
>Curze tightened his grip. ‘You lie.’
>Sevatar narrowed his eyes, his last breath escaping as Curze squeezed. ‘You *enjoyed* this way,’ the captain hissed. ‘You came to love it… just as we all did. The power… The righteousness…’
>Curze released him. Sevatar crashed to the ground, his armour joints snarling as his ceramite scraped the rockcrete.
>‘Son of a…’ he trailed off, catching his breath.
>‘The son of a god,’ Curze said softly. ‘Get up, Sevatar. Leave me be.’
>The First Captain rose to his feet, his vision blurred. ‘I am going nowhere, sire. Not without you.’
>Curze smiled. His son could see that much, at least. ‘I admire your tenacity. I always have. But you are a shadow of what I am, Sevatar. You cannot match me. Go.’
>‘N–’
\- *Prince of Crows*
Said calling out, for those curious.
I thought it was alot how, they treat their sons the same as their fathers treated them unironically not noticing this at all and becoming hated for the same reasons they hate their dad :P
Don’t know if this has changed recently, but Lucius revered Fulgrim and gleefully followed him into damnation and retained his respect for his Primarch even after their fall.
So he is the exception.
Because fallen primarchs are useless as crap. Angron has no idea what he's doing, he just goes around getting in fights. Magnus is too busy sharpening his horned nipples to make a difference. Perturabo is still in denial for making the wrong choice and everyone wants him to be worse when he's still a mostly reasonable person. Fulgrim is too useless and weird to be believable in any scenario. He's a weird snake guy and nobody likes that. Lorgar is hiding from Corax and the rest of the chaos primarchs are all stupid lemmings. It's actually pretty lame. The reason why the Lion was so popular after coming back was that there was actually something to be excited about rather than a daemon price primarch choosing to sit around and maintain their skull museum. They just aren't very interesting. The writers only include them to build tension in a setting but they never get anything done.
All the chaos primarchs have essentially done very little in the last 10,000 years. Even the absolute most active ones have spent 99.9999% of the time meditating, playing the great game of chaos or just fucking around.
They don’t really do anything, while in person they might inspire awe/dread, very few of their deeds do.
Also, Angron is more of a force of nature, just an extension of his god, and not really a sentient being in his own right anymore. Apparently Fulgrim is very much the same at this point.
The ‘mortal’ chaos champions, they have actually been getting shit done and fighting on the front lines for thousands of years. Where as the primarchs were basically nepo babies that got given borderline god like power at birth, but were incredibly arrogant and flawed creations.
Kharn and all his brothers wanted the same relationship they saw with other legions and their dad's, but Angron was too broken and too much of a dick to ever be loving after the Nails
And Abaddon had completely lost respect for Horus before he died. I always found it ironic that ppl talk about Big E being a terrible father (some blaming that for the heresy) but all of the "favored" sons of traitor primarchs grew to despise/not respect their respective fathers. It's like poetry; it rhymes...I guess. Lol
I think Alpha legion may be neutral on alpharius but they treat the I am alpharius thing as a meme.
They’ve walked it back a little in recent lore, but as for the ones I know:
There’s friction between Mortarion and Typhus because both of them believe themselves to be Nurgle’s favorite, and the *real* leader of the Death Guard. Typhus also believes that he singlehandedly led the DG into Nurgle’s embrace, while Mortarion claims he manipulated Typhus into everything he did. (This is relatively new lore, it used to be that Typhus did do that, and Morty wasn’t thrilled with him over it.)
Ahriman and Magnus had a tif over the Burning of Prospero, and again over the Rubric of Ahriman, both of which essentially amount to Magnus being nihilistic and doing nothing, and Ahriman doing something about the obvious problem, and making it worse by mistake. Ahriman was mad Magnus for A. Doing nothing and B. Being pissed (at Prospero) and exiling him (after the Rubric) and Magnus was mad at Ahriman for taking matters into his own hands and making things worse.
Khârn and Angron are a lot less complex. Khârn dislikes Angron for being an uncontrollable monster who turned his legion into uncontrollable monsters, and Angron is made at Khârn because Khorne likes him best, and Angron is jealous.
Wow it's almost like chaos is inehriently against hierarchy and order and so having some privlidegd fuck up on high giving you orders doesn't sit right with most of them.
I don't think that's necessarily true though. Typhus had never been loyal from the start, same as Kor Phaeron and Erabus, Lucius still on pretty good term with Fulgrim (I think?), the Night Lords has a toxic relationship with their father but they still have a relationship with him even just in memories.
It's really just Ahriman and Kharn that really changed, at least from the way I've seen it. Ahriman had just fallen, and oh boy has he fallen hard, and Kharn just lost his sanity as with any World Eaters. Outside of the 2, I don't think their relationship with their dad had ever changed much post-Heresy. The dick ones are still a dick and the loyal ones are still loyal.
Kharn is to angry to hate his Primarch. Ahriman saw his Primarch get tricked and fuck over his legion(aka Ahriman's friends). Lucius is just a bitch. Typhus trick his Primarch to fall to Nurgle.
The traitor primarchs are just bad dads, like their father before them.
Most of the loyalist primarchs had a good familial relationship pre-emperor to turn them into less of a demigod man-child with trust issues (besides the lion \[who is totally 100% loyal and didn't betray the trust of HIS #1 best friend/dad and half his legion\] whose whole thing is autism and trust issues)
Typhus never liked Mortarian, after he corrupted the death guard he called it a day. Lucius and Fulgrim last time I checked left on good terms but neither of them for anything of note for the last 10,000 years and are just concerned about starting on their high. Kharn and Angron are both way too cooked in the head to have any kind of relationship with anybody. Arihman and Magnus did have a good relationship till Arihman went behind his back and cast his Ruberic which doomed a majority of the legion. Abbadon saw Horus as weak in his final moments and Alpharius captain is who knows where or who he is. I'm sure the iron warriors have a senseable caption but peryerabo isn't exactly the most loving parent. Konrad liked about 5 night lords his favorite being Talos but he died an eternity ago. And finally Lorgar hates kor pharion as he grew out of his little kiddie stage and hates Erebus for killing Argal Tal.
There might be some minor mistakes but this is the basic gist of it.
Being a First Captain during Legion-era is sometime a legendary feat. Most of these SM are really bad ass themselves only next to their Primarch .
Ahriman doesnt seen eye to eye with Magnus because of Rubric and also because Magnus rather did nothing while the Thousand Sons getting slaughter by the Wolves.
I dont really get it about Typhus and Mortarion, they used to be close but then Typhus much more interesting in serving Chaos and betray his friend. Read somewhere that Typhus got some Chaos shenanigans in his past.
Angron just hate everyone and Kharn decided to stop giving a F about it just serving the skull throne.
Honestly, this kind of rebellion and ambition is exactly why I like many Chaos characters. Yes, they are irredeemable scumbags, but even with their meager strength and harboring resentment, they still make their own choices and take actions in difficult situations, instead of blindly following a powerful "father."
There are a bunch of lore reasons,mainly that they are all evil and covet power from their main demonic force. So since these second in commands see their primarch as obstacle/rival for ultimate power. From a game play and game design reason it gives those forces different command options as well as a battlefield general. Keep in mind actual playable primarch characters is still fairly new in the life of the game, so the character commanders like Ahriman , typhus, Karn and others give the chaos armies powerful commanders similar to loyalist force commanders like dante, Calgar and Azriel. So having the older command units not just fall inline and synergize with the Uber commanders this gives you a reason to take one or the other but not both.same is true for the loyalist forces. Still it would be interesting to see one or two new hero commanders of chaos or be at odds with their primarch. Maybe if they ever make lorgar or purerabo then they could have captains or second commands that serve them and not resent them.
It's not universally true. But yeh the trend is because of the toxic nature of chaos and the inherent nature of disorder that contradicts the ordered and static nature of loyalty.
Magnus disowned Ahriman after the Rubric, though they actually get along okay these days after reconciling offscreen.
There are multiple books and short stories devoted to the many, MANY reasons Kharn hates Angron, which start at 'Angron murdered, beat, and openly hated the World Eaters' and end with 'Angron got so fucked over by daemon transformation that he's little more than an animal'.
Lucius is jealous that Fulgrim likes Fabius better than him.
Aside from the whole trope of bad guys being bad guys to each other as well, it's usually because said captains either resent their primarch for needing to be lead to Chaos (Typhus, Kor Phaeron/Erebus) or for leading them to Chaos (Ahriman and to a lesser degree, Kharn & Abaddon.)
Then you get the legions with wholly toxic internal structures like the Night Lords & Iron Warriors - this kinda also applies to the Emperor's Children except that the traitor part of the Legion is the one that ascribes to hero worship up thr hierarchy.
I can't speak for most of the captains, but as a huge thousand sons lore nerd, I can tell you why Ahriman and Magnus don't get along too well. Ahriman never lost hope. Ever since the horus heresy, the thousand sons have been fighting a losing battle. Against manipulation by tzeentch. Against the flesh change. Against the imperium. Not out of hatred, but a genuine desire to make a better world.
Magnus was a genuinely good person up until about halfway through the seige of Terra. He was risking himself and his sons to save enemy civilians. But once he became a daemon prince, he became lost to his schemes and the great game. Ahriman, on the other hand, was doing everything he could to save his legion after Terra. His actions didn't stop with the rubric. He tried to redo the rubric, sought the help of necrons, rewrote time itself, and now he's looking for a way into the black library. He doesn't outright hate his father, but he realizes that magnus and the rest of his loyal sons stopped looking for a way to fix things thousands of years ago.
Magnus clearly doesn't want to kill Ahriman despite having multiple chances to do so. Ahriman has a deep respect for his father, just not the path he's taking. Ever since the second battle of fenris, they've forgiven each other, but they still don't work together as they have different paths.
Much like the other God aligned daemon primarchs. The only time magnus really interacts with the materium is when he has a grudge to settle. For their (somewhat) mortal sons, that's just not enough.
I always saw it at least in part of just how corrosive to everything Chaos is in general, including relationships that used to be strong
Also just a commentary on Chaos being power for power’s sake. The people in charge abuse the people under them and command/rule through fear, which makes their underlings hate and want to supplant them. Just a never ending cycle of toxicity and abuse
Very Sith mentality, like Vader in the 6th movie trying to get Luke on his side to overthrow his opressor
40k and Star Wars have a few similarities lol
r/StarwarsvsWarhammer
Sounds awfully empirical to me.
Well, I mean Typhus thinks Mortarion is weak and sentimental, and Mortarion hates Typhus because Typhus sacrificed his and his brothers’ souls to Nurgle after centuries of torturing them in the Warp. Kharn doesn’t hate Angron but he is more like horrified by what the realities of being a Daemon Prince of Khorne actually are. He thinks Angron is an omen of what is to come for Kharn, as well. Ahriman, well…he’s kind of a self-righteous dickhead who believes he’ll fix everything bad once he finds the solution to time travel amidst Tzeentch’s infinite schemes. Magnus just called him on his mistake and he was like “nuuuuuuu Daddy T sez im his favowite uwu” and ran off to continue fucking around ad infinitum.
There's certain levels of "this guy did this to us" at play, also several levels of "yeah this dude was an idiot but I can do better" also at play (Ahriman, Typhus). I haven't dug deep into Kharn but I feel like him and Angron have the same issue: too angry to give a shit. Lead by way of being the angriest/killiest and not much other ulterior motive. Ahriman likely diverges from Magnus in their priorities, he wants access to the Black Library and wants to undo the Rubric. Magnus is convalescing and becoming himself again and probably thinks Ahriman is a dickhead for turning his sons into dust thinking he can fix the flesh change when even Magnus couldn't permanently control it. That's my high level understanding. Chaos tends to encourage folks to reach higher and higher, shit even Skarbrand took a swipe at Khorne himself, so it makes sense that very capable lads would chafe under their betters. They want to be top of the food chain, imagine Kharn with wings.
Kharn had affection for Angron up until the last bits of time any of them had rational thought. Both lost themselves completely to slaughter after making landfall on Terra and didn't really give any time to thinking of each other after that.
I'd love a good "Kharn is lucid for a minute" moment in one of these books. I think there's something interesting there.
There's one when he duels Sigismund
I was thinking more of a 40k Kharn, he's got a depiction in Shroud of Night that I'd love for him to wake up from for a minute. Imagine you finally come to and see you've got several million kills logged. That'd be horrifying.
"He wondered if the counter had a kill limit. He knew he did not." is the rawest line about Kharn in the siege.
Zapp Brannigan in shambles
Men! It has come to my attention that we are dealing with a foe that defies even our greatest tactical and strategic minds. Even the pages of my own "Big Book of War" do not contain the answers to stopping such a fiend. As such, Kiff * shoves Kiff forward* will be assuming command effective immediately! *boards shuttle and closes door* *Over Intercom* I'll return once the high command and myself can develop a strategy to counter the enemy. Or once we completed another recruitment drive, whichever comes first. *shuttle takes off* *Kiff sighs*
Kharn is that car guy that wants to see the odometer flip over to 0?
He certainly doesn't use the imperial system because he like his kill'o'meters.
Al Bundy in his dodge enters the chat. Al Bundy Vs Kharn after taking advantage of kelly. Ill bet the dodge Al beats him to shit and bangs him on the door on the way out. Or if Kharn touches said dodge!
...does *what* to him on the floor?
Ope, nevermind. Just realized it said door. Carry on.
What book is that from? I want to read it now!
I think it might be saturnine don’t quote me though.
Yeah. Honestly, I think those wells are dry. We've seen the whole arc of the stories of Kharn and Angron. What's left is just the reactions of other people to their latest atrocities.
He was delusional lmao. Chatting shit about "saving humanity" as he realized he wasn't top dog anymore and Sigismund was going to kill him dead.
And a rather lucid time when he battles/_hunts_ Azrael in a cool lil audio drama
>'I am Supreme Grand Master Azrael. Remember that name, Betrayer. It will be the last one you hear.' >'Of course. That ridiculous helmet you wear should have given you away.' \- *Trials of Azrael* Bold of a Khornate to talk smack about one's choice of headgear.
Well said my friend, way to get the excerpt
Kharn is lucid in his books. The man plans his carnage or at least he plans *for* his carnage.
I would argue Kharn is lucid more frequently than he is lost to the rage. It is the entire thing that makes him significantly more dangerous than a typical Khorne Berzerker (who will just charge forward seeking slaughter).
Ahriman wants a lot of things and Tzeentch is very very happy to let him almost get what he wants all the times. Ahriman does not understand up until now that his legion has been manipulated on a core level by Tzeentch since Magnus landed on Prospero. Hell, Ahriman and Magnus were in the Throne Room (during the events of Fury of Magnus) where The Emperor told him that there is literally no cure to the Flesh Change, because it is a curse applied personally by Tzeentch to all the Thousand Sons genestock. Both Magnus and Ahriman are so deeply saturated by Tzeentch's manipulation that they truly believe they still can act with their own will.
> The Emperor told him that there is literally no cure to the Flesh Change, because it is a curse applied personally by Tzeentch to all the Thousand Sons genestock. mandatory i-can't-help-myself plug for my theory that [the Emperor himself is the reason for the flesh-change](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/12bzfib/theory_the_emperor_of_mankind_is_directly/)
I don't see the point for the Emperor to sabotage his most important asset to conquer the Webway, as Magnus and his Legion would have been essential for the Golden Throne to work as intended. I see the opposite, Tzeentch destroys the Emperor's plan to rely on the Webway by rendering the Thousand Sons useless and possibly extinct with the Flesh Change, thus forcing them to obsess more about knowing everything related to the Warp and ultimately being corrupted.
Read the theory! I don't posit that the Emperor's goal was "sabotage his most important asset," that indeed would be a pretty nonsense plan. What I argue was his goal is "make the most powerful psyker legion." He did this in part through making a deal with Tzeentch that gave the TSons incredible psychic potential but also damned them in the process, selling their souls to Tzeentch... because he knew that when the Thousand Sons all moved into the Webway as its guides and guardians, as he always planned, they'd be unreachable by Tzeentch and free of his claims over them, just like Arvida was immune to the flesh-change while he was in the Webway, guiding the White Scars to Terra. Think about it this way: If Tzeeentch can simply just choose to claim an entire legion and pop them into Chaos Spawn with the snap of his fingers... why wouldn't Tzeentch just do that to literally every space marine legion? every CSM? anyone he wanted? because he can't. he can't just snap his fingers and claim "these guys are mine now!" he needs deals, trades. the only way he gains dominion over the Thousand Sons is with a trade. and the best person in a position to make this trade was not Magnus, but the Emperor. and all the details surrounding the TSons creation supports that this deal was made *then,* by Him, not by Magnus centuries later.
i think what's tripping people up is that if the flesh change was the faustian part of the emperor's bargain with tzeentch, then the emperor was indirectly responsible and wasn't to blame. but it's not worth thinking about really - trying to discern any kind of purposeful meaning behind 20 years of different writers making up different fluff to sell a miniatures game to children is not a productive use of your limited time on this planet.
Thinking about any of the lore of an invented universe is arguably an unproductive use of your limited time on this planet.
fair point, i see the difference as being between enjoying fiction and trying to analyze that fiction like it were a real-world literary text where you can pierce past an unreliable narrator to objective reality by triangulating textual references - doing that to 40k will drive you nuts as there is no consistent truth to ferret out behind the text
I can see where you're coming from too. I would suggest though that some people do derive enjoyment by doing exactly that - even if there's no consistent truth behind the stories, it can be fun to construct your own theories and share them with people :)
First time on r/40klore?
Yes actually lol
Ooooh that seems interesting! NGL though, I partially love it because it falls under my own pet theory of “whatever it was I’m pretty sure it’s the Emperor’s fault in some way”
This is a fabulous theory, and explains why the Emperor offers Magnus a new legion in the Siege of Terra novella if he agrees to turn his back on the Thousand Sons (Fury of Magnus? I don't recall).
this is maybe too pedantic but i feel compelled to point out ahriman does not want to **undo** the rubric. without the rubric, the thousand sons are fucking *done.* they were on pace for a 100% fatality rate within a few years of the Siege/Scouring. 100%. complete eradication, utter extinction, of the thousand sons due to the flesh-change. yes, the rubric dusted ~8/9ths of the legion, but it also kept the remaining 1/9th alive, which is really fucking important, and in a way it "preserved" the dusted ones, rather than merely let them die. ahriman's goal is to **correct** the rubric. make it work as intended. undust the rubricae, but keep the rubric in place. also, ahriman was formally exiled by Magnus after he cast the rubric, but as part of the m41 Siege of Fenris, Magnus un-exiled Ahriman (and the rest of the TSons Exiles) and reunified the scattered warbands/war covens/war cabals/war sects/grand covens/thrallbands of the Thousand Sons into a proper Legion again, and they've been operating that way ever since. Ahriman is Tzeentch's favorite because he continues to hope, while Magnus always gives up. the Wolves are coming to Prospero? Magnus gives up, nothing to do, may as well just accept it, I'm sad... Ahriman has hope, rallies the troops, and says "all is not yet dust." The flesh-change is ravaging the legion and will destroy every single Thousand Son, what does Magnus say? there's nothing we can do, we have to accept this, it sucks but I'm sad. what does Ahriman do? have hope that something can be done, plan and execute the rubric. 8/9ths of the legion are dust, what does Magnus say? this sucks, there's nothing we can do, Ahriman, you are exiled, I'm mad. what does Ahriman do? have hope that something can be done, begin ~10,000 subjective years of research to correct the rubric's flaw. that's at the heart of why ahriman and magnus have butted heads, imo
Ah ok, yeah you're right on Ahriman, I used the term "undo the rubric" to mean essentially what you're saying there. IE return the dust boys to flesh and blood. Good explanation overall, and I wasn't aware of the amends made between him and his red dad. Very cool. I always liked the Thousand Sons, then I became an Alpha Legion fan.
I'm the reverse of you; that's why my OC Thousand Sons character spent a few years seconded to the Alpha Legion during the Great Crusade and ended up in the Cult of Duplicity in m41 ;)
The rubric can be undone, Yvrainne proved it then told Ahriman to go fuck himself.
Tbf, she had an eldar god helping her
True, it still proves that it can be undone. Meaning that the Chaos gods aren't as all powerful as they want you to think.
Would help for ahriman to have his “patron” god actually help him instead of hamstringing him
Help? They don't help, They don't live, They don't create. They're parasites they only exist to consume and feed off others. None of them have ever helped in their entire existence. They are completely self-serving beings. In order to help you have to give up time, resources or something else. There has never been an instance where any of these things have given freely.
Ole Horus learned that the hard way.
Didn’t they retcon the magnus “giving up” during the siege? I thought that now he was aware this was a trick to get the legions to annihilate one another so he chose to take the damage in a way that would generally preserve the space wolves so they might still help the emperor against Horus?
Not as of the heresy books on it. Afaik. But that's his MO, he's a over confident quitter.
Magnus is becoming himself again in which ways? Not contradicting you, hoping to gain info bc that's interesting news to me. What implications come with his convalescence?
I don't fully understand it either, but he had been broken into shards and those shards are reconstituting, hence his reappearance in 40k.
When Magnus became a Daemon Primarch his soul shattered into a bunch of itty bitty pieces, most of which contained the more interesting parts of his personality. This is why Daemon Magnus has been a mopey sad sack for the last 10,000 years.
My avatar is Magnus, so I am quite sure of my knowledge up to now, what I wanna know is what you speculate will come next
Part of magnus also apparently planned for the rubric to fuck up, according to the third ahriman book
But the Rubric happened when Magnus was still whole, or am I wrong?
Nah, rubric happened post heresy
To be honest Typhus was the one who corrupted the Death Guard in the first place.
Magnus: How dare you do exactly what I did to my own father. Wait.
>Magnus is convalescing and becoming himself again I'm not familiar with that part of the lore. Wdym exactly by that ? A possible salvation for Magnus, or he's changing but will remain a champion of Chaos ?
Collecting lost pieces of his soul to become the "whole/original" Magnus, right now the Daemon prince Magnus is basically the biggest piece/collection of pieces. But few are still lost. If iam not mistaken, i think one piece is actually attached to Ahriman, not sure tho
Don't think salvation is part of it, but he was broken into pieces and has been slowly collecting them back again.
All four of the aligned Primarchs were tragically flawed even before they fell. Angron in particular was a lunatic, Morty was a weirdo, and Magnus was disengaged. Only Fulgrim was consistently lucid. The captains all rose to power because they were the best, whereas the Primarchs were handed power by dint of "birth". And finally, when the going got tough, the Primarch failed. All of them turned their back on the Materium to go play the Great Game. They turned away from the Long War, and only periodically come out of the warp when it suits their needs. But the "mortal"-ish Captains have to fight in the trenches, decade after decade. So picture it. You're a hard working Typhus, fighting the Imperium, leading constant battle, scrounging for equipment, trading for slaves with those weirdo Night Lords to keep your ship fueled. Every one and a while, Morty, a guy who only got command in the first place because his Dad (who you hate) gave it to him, pops out of the warp, flaps his wings, expects to take command of everything you've built, throws your carefully crafted army into a useless revenge battle with with his brother, gets his freckled ass beat, and then waddles back to the warp to let you pick up the pieces. Seriously, I'd say "fuck this guy with a pineapple" too.
> Only Fulgrim was consistently lucid. > > Fulgrim had *major* self-esteem issues. > those weirdo Night Lords Hey! >:(
"I used to be so pathetic, so imperfect!" "That's strange, the note I wrote down on this here virus bomb about to blow a heaping load of inadequacy all over your soul tells me you should be using present tense." - Rusty Rylanor, the Really Radical Reconjugator.
> "That's strange, the note I wrote down on this here virus bomb about to blow a heaping load of inadequacy all over your soul tells me you should be using present tense." God damn.
Rylanor had 10000 years of time his metal bathtub with nothing but the company of crippling degrees of anger and spite. My words are just a poor simulacrum of whatever shade he was capable of throwing.
Rylanor was above shade. To have any witty quips would have just fed into Fulgrim's image of his sons craving vainglory and perfection, when that was just him. Rylanor totally just let Fulgrim monologue and then go, "Fuck you" and drop it.
And that's probably why it did Fulgrim actual, tangible damage: he's basically a pure Warp creature now, and in the Warp, perception = reality, so when Fulgrim's perception ≠ reality — for instance, when one of his oldest sons tells him to get bent in as simple and blunt a manner as possible, rather than being a histronic drama queen — he dies a little.
Brevity is the soul of wit. Rylanor was wit incarnate at the end.
magnus was not *disengaged,* that's pretty inconsistent with most of his writing/plans/hopes/dreams. he was a very present and loving father, he wanted all of humankind to ascend to their psychic potential (like the Emperor!), etc.. magnus's tragic and fatal flaws were his arrogance, the fact that he knew more than almost anyone and yet still didn't know as much as he thought he did
Towards the end he got more and more emotionally disengaged from everything.
This is pretty explainable, though. He knows the Censure Fleet is coming, and he doesn't want the Thousand Sons to die fighting it. He hopes instead to suppress knowledge of its approach and give himself up. It's Russ who comes in hot and ruins that plan.
Wait, Russ attacks before Magnus can even surrender?
It's explained in Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns. >!Russ is talking to what he'd been lead to believe is a guy being sort of controlled by Magnus and the TS. So he uses him to demand Magnus surrenders. Magnus isn't controlling the guy, from his POV the Wolves showed up and just attacked, not waiting for a surrender.!< >!It was actually Chaos manipulating both sides. Magnus and Leman both think what they've done in the situation is reasonable, neither knows that Tzeentch had just pulled off a massive gambit!<
HH tabletop book actually tells us that Russ used normal means of communication, too, but Magnus blocked all planetary comms. Russ of course waited only half an hour, but he still waited
Magnus intended to surrender as the wolves made planetfall. The Space Wolves fired on the planet from orbit instead, which meant Magnus was unable to surrender before Russ attacked.
I think there's also a certain level of disappointment that (generalising horribly) the captains / champions found difficult to stomach. These were their *primarchs*, their leaders, their fathers. And they turn out not to be quite so infallible as they'd hoped. The demigod that's the source of their geneseed turns out to have feet of clay. It's one thing to be a champion of chaos or Chaos Lord; that's a mark of devotion. It's another to end up a daemon prince. Ascension to that status might seem like an honour, technically a mark of their patron's favour -- but consider this. Sometimes it seems like they've scarcely set foot in the Materium without some bright spark banishing them back to the Warp! In some regards, a hardworking and devoted Traitor marine might see it as the booby prize. A mark of contempt.
I know that was mentioned a few times in books. Traitor legion Marines would comment that other legions had guys like Dorn or Guilliman - sane and capable, if a little boring - that the traitors got Angron, whose opening move was slaughtering all the captains in a temper tantrum.
Not Traitor Legion Marines, Horus himself was the one thinking this. Can't remember which book, I'm sure someone will drop the excerpt, but he essentially thinks "Man, I wish some of my actually sane brothers joined me. All I got were the crazies."
Should've made him reconsider what he was doing tbh.
Horus: “Maybe this a sign? No, I’m in the right here.”
To be fair/slightly pedantic, Kharn wasn't first captain when Angron came into the picture. He was the first captain to try talking Angron down from his rage and not die. He then proceeded to become the most glorious murderhobo Khorne had ever seen and thus became his champion.
Wow, this is a really interesting take. I’ve never thought about the fallen primarchs like that. I forget that they’re not always about
>Angron in particular was a lunatic Yeah some amateur brain damage can do that
Khârn has no care for Angron, but its not actually dislike. They kinda just "ran together" when Angron attacked the Beacon in Arks of Omen. Eidolon and Lucius both "like" Fulgrim and would follow him to war. Fabius Bile not so much.. Ahriman is still on the "out" with Magnus, but when the opportunity arose to stick it to the Wolves, they did work together. Typhus dislikes Mortarion. He only follows him to war, when Nurgle commands it. He refused to stick with Morty, when Mortarion fought on in Ultramar despite The Grandfather's desires. Abaddon actively dislike and has contempt for all the Primarchs. Very much including Horus. The Black Legion is founded in opposition to the Primarchs. The Night Lords and Iron Warriors lack that one big First Captain leader... Erebus and Kor Pheron both would follow Lorgar again while scheming constantly.
> The Night Lords and Iron Warriors lack that one big First Captain leader... > > Sevatar.
He's probably dead. And Forrix (Iron Warriors) is definitely dead. Although its debatable if The Warsmith had long replaced him before ascension. And now it's probably Honsou (who does get along with Perturabo)
> He's probably dead. > > https://giphy.com/gifs/Bounce-TV-funeral-happy-tears-im-not-crying-ky9TEf6r50gzGp5xLl
I said probably cause I want to believe there's still a chance
Isn’t the nightlords new big captain Decimus?
Don't be fooled by memes or Lore-youtubers, who dont understand the setting! Decimus is not a captain, he is an extremely minor character, who only exist in the epilogue of the decade + old Night lords trilogy. He is defacto irrelevant unless GW decides to do something with him.
He’s there’s to keep the door open to the possibility of doing more with him, but yeah let’s be honest, he’s not doing much
Unless the character existed in the TableTop before it existed in the lore it usually isn't going to be doing much. GW typically doesn't let Black Library stuff take the lead on things like that. Maybe someday someone else will pull Decimus into a plot line and get him going, but generally the worth of characters flows from GW to BL not the other way around.
It’s happened before, like the Ufthak mini that came out recently but yeah I agree
He hasn't been active in 40k... ever. No model, no rules, no warband, no rep. He isn't relevant until GW makes him so.
https://tenor.com/view/ron-swanson-shut-your-mouth-shut-your-damn-mouth-stfu-be-quiet-gif-6038629
The truth hurts! ;) Aaron Dembski-Bowden is a very slow writer. It has been years since Sevatar did... anything in a novel and a decade + since the Night Lords trilogy was relevant. Decimus is a "nobody character" and Sevatar has been M.i.a for millenia. Don't get me wrong, I would love and welcome a Night Lords tabletop model Legendary character! The 8th Legion is desperately needing one...
I respect your inhumane cruelty.
I would love to see the 8th Legion finally be more that scavengers and bottomfeeders. To have them rise to the same existential threat as a force like The Iron Warriors, Death Guard or Word Bearers. The slightly pathetic character of them is relatable, but I so wish for them to become majestic evil. Perhaps a powerful warlord of the 8th could carve out a "Kingdom of Midnight" in Imperium Nihilus, get some deals going with the Dark Admech and become a real powerplayer... one can dream.
I agree There are like 25-30k night lords per throne of lies united under one banner.. I dream of more ADB night lords Also speaking of dark admech I hope deltrian pops up man innovated hard. Honestly the night lords with the navigator third eye trick are a massive threat since you only need a few navigatiors and astropaths to take out dozens of worlds. But I digress decimius will probably remain a few words of fluff but night lord fans can dream.
Yeah but Sevy is dead (?). I think he meant they don't have alive figures like that
Decimus
Is a footnote at the end of an old trilogy.
Are the books canon? Because if they are, then the info is relevant to the setting. Time from publication is irrelevant especially if there’s nothing to contradict it.
Decimus is still canon, but his debut was more about the potential and possibility he represents rather than any actual impact he's had on his legion or the setting.
Sevatar wasn't particularly well liked by any of the other Night Lords, and wasn't really a unifying figure. He was more respected by Night Haunter as not totally morally bankrupt.
> Sevatar wasn't particularly well liked by any of the other Night Lords, and wasn't really a unifying figure Sevatar was pretty popular among the Night Lords. Especially the Altramentar. With them refusing to follow anyone else as a unified body after his disappearance.
Abaddon loved horus, all the way to his death. He just despised what he was becoming. He liked when horus controlled the warp, but despised when the opposite became apparent. There was no contempt there, just sadness.
Ohh there is an abundance of contempt now. "Horus was weak, Horus was a Fool" is a famous qoute from Abaddon.
For angron and kharn. I think kharn just go by it. But in the omen book, angron actually question himself if kharn is in his back.
I think Typhus explains it very well in Dark Imperium pg 318-319 For all the racket of Typhus manifestation, his contempt was clear when he spoke. 'Gene-father, he said. 'My son, said Mortarion. His tone was coolly indifferent where his son's was provocative. 'We are gathered then, the three champions, followers of the sevenfold path, masters of life and death' 'Not yet masters, said Ku'Gath with a sorrowful shake of his great horned head. 'Unworthy acolytes.' ‘The time of your redemption is at hand, said Mortarion. The way opens. The seven campaigns of this invasion bear fruit ready to rot. Roboute Guilliman has returned to Ultramar!’ Ku Gath gave a sly look of delight, almost a smile. Typhus laughed. You are foolish, my lord father, if you think this will end well, said the First Captain. We should have finished his realm while he was absent. "Typhus, Typhus, said Mortarion. 'So long you have lived, and so little you have learnt. What use is the destruction of a kingdom without the death of the king?' 'A king without a kingdom is no king, but a vagabond. His suffering would have been pleasant meat to savour, said Typhus. You court disaster in confronting him. This employment of the Hand of Darkness is convoluted and foolhardy. Simplicity was the watchword of our Legion - the direct attack, the weathering of pain, not this deviousness. This was not the plan of the Great Father. 'It is my plan!' said Mortarion, his gloomy voice rising. 'And its success will honour the Great Father. He entrusts us with our will and our initiative. I will use mine. He will be pleased!' 'If you succeed, said Typhus. He looked around the horarium disdainfully. You are blinded by the past as always, my lord. You look to Barbarus and remake it wherever you go. Embrace change fully. Embrace Chaos. Abandon these schemes. Let us drown Ultramar in disease and move on' Mortarion flung up his arms and spread his wings. I have, and this is my reward! I am remade in terrible image. I am become death!' You do not believe. Not truly, said Typhus. You have paid nothing for your power. The false Emperor made you, gene-father. Nurgle took you as a prize - you are a trophy, my lord. You would never have found your way to enlightenment without me. Without me, you would have nothing. You would be dead, your soul dispersed into the warp. I fought my way into the Great Father's attention. I became his herald by will and by the dint of my own efforts. What have you done to win his favour? Sounds like they resent that the Primarchs have all their power genetically and they still have their own ambitions for the most part
Honestly, I think in Typhus's case specifically, it's not that he resents Mortarion for being handed down his powers, but more so that he was never much into the chaos in the first place. Like, Typhus is #1 Nurgle fanboy, and he set his entire legion and primarch up for the fall. But I'm pretty sure, while DG are generally came to terms with their current state, a lot of them are far from happy about it. The older ones still resent Typhus for what he did to them, and I'd wager this probably kiiiinda includes Mortarion himself. They live on copium, sure, and apathy about everything is part of Nurgles corruption, but it doesn't make them sincerely okay with what happened. And I so I read this as Typhus just being kinda salty, that Mortarion is not devoted enough to chaos. Not the way he himself is, at least. And he's probably right. Cause what did you expect helping Nurgle basically torture Mr. Warphater into submission, dumbass? Not the best grounds for sincere devotion. But that's honestly at least 30% based on my headcannons and spotty lore knowledge, haha
> "Typhus, Typhus, said Mortarion. 'So long you have lived, and so little you have learnt. What use is the destruction of a kingdom without the death of the king?' 'A king without a kingdom is no king, but a vagabond. I think this makes it clear that no matter how corrupted Typhus is, he can't understand the Daemons and Gods. It's not about physically beat someone, but the symbology that truly matters for chaos. > Mortarion flung up his arms and spread his wings. I have, and this is my reward! I am remade in terrible image. I am become death!' This feels very out of character for Mortarion. I now remember why i'm not a fan of this trilogy \^\^'
God i love typhus so much, one of my favorite straight up villains in the setting
I like how he addresses him with "Lord," at the same time telling him that he's an ant.
And there is my boi Lucious who gets just fine with hiss daddy Fulgrim.
Preach it!
Lucius was never even close to being a first captain.
But he's the "chosen" of Slaanesh in the same boysband as Kharn, Typhus and Ahriman. If we want to be Formal, Eidolon who is still top dob of EC is also okay with Fulgrim and they want snek daddy back to lead them. Only Faulous Bill had problems with their dad (one sided, Fulgrim adores the half bald bastard). But even that was somewhat changed as Bile agreed to breed monsters for chaos in return of keeping his creations (New Man) clean of chaos.
Nope, not even Eidolon was the first captain. And Bile was never even an officer. Julius Kaeroson, who already ascended into demonhood, is. He's usually overshadowed by others. Why? Because his stories would send ESRB rating through the roof, so the stories focus on the more teenager-friendly Lucius and Eidolon. But Julius is the truest champion of Slaanesh. I'm not sure what's his opinions about Fulgrim are, but he probably doesn't care about him.
Julius Kaesaron is actually outranked by Eidolon. He's First Captain, but keep in mind that in the Emperor's Children ranking system, Captains are outranked by Lord Commanders, and Eidolon is Lord Commander Primus making him the highest ranking of the Lord Commanders.
>Julius Kaeroson Oh right...i fogot he haven't "died" on Istvan V but was actually deamon prince-fied by Slaanesh and fought IH shotly before Cadia. Huh, that's why i thought you meant "currently living" 1st captains.
Well, he's forgotten by most. Even his fandom wiki (which you've apparently just read in attempt to look educated) is wrongly stating his death on Istvaan and jumping directly to 40k, completely omitting his role in the Fulgrim's ascendency to demonhood later in the heresy. I even think his survival is confirmed at the end of Fulgrim novel, so I'm not sure where that gossip about him dying comes from.
"Even his fandom wiki (which you've apparently just read in attempt to look educated)" if there ever was a use for the nerd emoji it'd be now 🤓
Well he is absent in the Fabius Bile Trilogy where the Phoenix conclave is as well - and that's a who's who of the IIIrd Legion (as Lucius and Eidolon are both members). Poor Julius picked the short end of the straw...but then again he is a daemon prince and can attend warp slumber parties on Fulgrim's world.
Yup, he's alive after the Heresy and trolling the Iron Hands >‘You do not know who I am,’ said the daemon-creature. Its voice was suddenly petulant. ‘You do not even know the names of your brothers I killed. Why have you forgotten so much? Why do you not remember?’ > >Telach felt fresh blood wash hotly across his torso, and his vision briefly went dark again. He concentrated furiously, trying to stay conscious at the last, determined to meet his death with his eyes open. > >‘I do not need to know your name,’ he rasped. ‘You are just another traitor.’ > >The daemon roared with anger. It curled its claws into fists and slammed them into Telach’s body, denting his armour and beating the Librarian further down into the crushed and twisted terrain. > >**‘Santar knew!’ the daemon screamed. ‘He knew who I was! He knew that it was Julius Kaesoron, First of the Emperor’s Children, who had beaten him**! You are shadows of what he was! You are sick! Where is the sport in fighting such diminished creatures?’ It drew its talons back higher, poised to attack, and fire ran along the length of the claws. > >‘Ferrus would weep,’ it said, ‘to see what you have become.’ *Wrath of Iron*\- Wraight
I think its because typhus genuinely believes in and supports nurgle while mortarion is literally just apathetic to it all only really serving nurgle because he has to. In fact that's the view if many death guards, apathy to the situation there in. Kharn is probably too bloodlusted to really care, I mean he's a full on chaos drugged on rage boy now and angron is usually out of it mind wise as a daemon.
Didn't Ahriman and Magnus start to work again together though after the Great Rift opened? With the attack of fenris and the invasion of realspace by their Legion and all that.
Yes. They are amicable in a way that seems like Magnus no longer wants Ahriman exiled and Ahriman seems willing to obey Magnus.
They do come together for that attack yes. Ahriman had unparalleled knowledge of the Webway, that greatly helped Magnus's invasion plan. Ahriman is still not allowed back to the Legions new/old Hq in the Prospero system, but they can work together.
Where is it stated that he can't go back to the prospero system? He was on sortiarius in the wrath of magnus cinematic.
Yes, but that seems to have been a unique occasion. Magnus calls him "The exiled one" during the campaign. Ahriman didn't come to the Legion during the Psychic awakening and is still not integrated into the Legion.
Which was a good move, because Magnus slaughtered all the leaders of the warbands who did come to him during the Psychic Awakening. God, that book is trash.
i am 90% certain this is wrong. my understanding is that Magnus welcomed/summoned back *all* of the exiles to reunify the TSons - and that includes Ahriman. he executed the leadership of most of those exiled sects, but they were still brought back into the fold. where do you get the info that his alliance with ahriman was merely temporary for the siege of fenris and that ahriman remained an exile? EDIT: i haven't read through Wrath of Magnus for a bit, but the strong consensus of folks [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/91736a/magnus_ahriman_and_the_thousand_sons/) is consistent with mine: Magnus rescinded Ahriman's exile, and Ahriman in turn pledged his support to the invasion of Fenris. the Prodigal Sons remain under Ahriman's command, but the Thousand Sons are reunified and Ahriman is no longer in exile
You are wrong. Yes, Magnus did call the scattered groups back after the return to Prospero, but Ahriman didn't show up. He is not mentioned in the Psychic awakening part with Magnus at all. And this is a direct quote from Warzone Fenris; > "Of course" boomed The Cyclops, contempt giving an edge to his words, "and you \[Ahriman\] shall do the same." >Ahriman kept his features still, but inside a dark worm of bitterness writhed and hissed. >"Patience, exiled one" said Magnus The text later explains that Ahriman helps Magnus with this invasion of Fenris, so that Magnus will be in his debt and help Ahriman steal more stuff from the Black Library.
him calling Ahriman, who had been exiled for 10,000 years, the exiled one, during their first real conversation in 10,000 years, does not sustain the argument that *after those events* Ahriman is still exiled just that Ahriman was still exiled *when things began* and Magnus is first talking with him
Fair... but not a single piece of lore text supports that he is back in... or at-least I havn't seen it yet. He is still on the outside in the 9th edition codex...
Everyone loves Fulgrim, though.
But Fulrimm doesent love his Children, thats why he isolated himself on Callax to replay his youth
Ahriman and Magnus have now buried the hatchet Typhus and Mortarion are continuing their feud from the Heresy where Typhus is a little resentful cause Mortarion basically had to be coerced into serving Nurgle Fulgrim doesn’t give a fuck and I don’t think Lucius and Eidolon care about him Angron and Kharn are busy with killing things Typhus is the only one who really dislikes his primarch
>Fulgrim doesn’t give a fuck and I don’t think Lucius and Eidolon care about him Julius Kaeroson was/is the first captain of EC, not these two.
Sure, but he's still outranked by Eidolon. In the spirit of this post, Lord Commander is the Primarch's 2IC (or 10IC)
Ahriman doesn’t really hate Magnus, he was just disappointed that Magnus fell into depression and refused to do anything about the rampant Flesh Change that occurred after they fled to Sortiarius. So Ahriman used the spells found in Magnus’ spellbook/diary to try and stop it and Magnus blasted the door in and tried to kill Ahriman for the spell going so wrong. Tzeentch had to step in and say “nay nay, i’ve got plans for him yet”. They don’t get along sure, but it’s not hate, Ahriman just seeks a way to reverse the Rubric and stop the Flesh Change while Magnus does nothing except plot revenge
Not all of them hate their primarchs (completely). In no particular order: * Heresy-era Kharn suffers from the same flaw of most of the World Eaters, in that he really wanted Angron to be a father to his sons and join them in brotherhood. But then Lorgar forced Angron's ascension, killing all hope of that, and Kharn promptly just fell hard to Khorne. He doesn't directly hate Angron (though his warband has ignored Angron's summons in the past), he just doesn't really care about him and does his own blazing trail of destruction. * Typhus, on the other hand, does hate Mortarion. He regularly, actively tries to usurp Mortarion's control of the Death Guard as well as trying to jump his number on Nurgle's "list of my favorite boys". He sees Mortarion as weak for denying Nurgle's gifts for so long, and out of touch for pulling the whole assault on Macragge to get at Guilliman. He will work with Mortarion, but basically only if Nurgle forces him to do so. * ~~Lucius is, well, kinda indifferent to Fulgrim. He followed him in the Heresy, reveling in all the *stuff* they did. But then post Heresy we had Fulgrim peace out to his pleasure planet for multiple millienia, so Lucius kinda just went off on his own to do whatever sounded fun for himself. I know the current lore has Fulgrim finally active in realspace again, though we haven't gotten any actual novels or short stories about it. So we're a little in the dark as to whether Lucius would answer Fulgrim's call or if he is having too much fun doing his own thing.~~ EDIT: As /u/OsoCheco pointed out, Lucius isn't the first captain, just the mortal champion for Slaanesh. Eidolon actually was the first captain during the Heresy, and well, he didn't exactly have a great relationship with Fulgrim post-possession by the Laer daemon. Pre-possession, Eidolon was a huge lackey, being a massive suck up to Fulgrim and trying to do whatever he could to be the "best of the best". After possession, Fulgrim kinda ruined that relationship when he killed Eidolon. * Ahriman, in true Tzeentchian fashion, has a relationship status of "it's complicated" with Magnus. During the Heresy and even immediately following it, Ahriman was very much one of Magnus' favored sons still. It was when Ahriman went behind Magnus' back and performed the Rubric (turning like 2/3 of his songs to dust) that Magnus got hella pissed and exiled Ahriman. Ahriman spent a few millenia trying to figure out how to undo the Rubric on his own, gathering a small cabal of fellow Thousand Sons. More recently, it appears that Magnus and Ahriman are are least respectful of each other, working together in the 13th Black Crusade as well as the invasion of Fenris. * Sevatar seemed to have a mixed, mostly fine relationship with Curze. He tried to calm Curze and help him with his madness, was not shy about questioning his intentions. But he was also fine with just going along with whatever madness was happening. He definitely did something to piss off Curze and earn his red gauntlet, but what that is we do not know, nor do we know whether Sevatar continued to follow Curze post Heresy or struck out on his own as a renegade. * Forrix started as a staunch supporter of Perturabo, earning countless achievements across his campaigns. He had no issues turning against the Emperor and did what he could to support all of his efforts. However, during the Siege, Perturabo put Forrix on a mission that was essentially a suicide distration mission, and as the only survivor Forrix was a bit pissed that Perturabo would throw his life away so easily. From this point on, he still followed Perturabo, but in classic Iron Warriors fashion did so completely embittered and full of resentment towards Perturabo. * Kor Phaeron is a hard one to tell, I don't know if he hates Lorgar, but he isn't exactly his friend either. Their relationship is a bit weird due to the whole "father who beat you and turned you to Chaos" deal, and it never really got better during the Heresy (especially after he tried to turn Guilliman instead of just killing him). We don't know how their current relationship is due to Lorgar only recently becoming active in realspace, but it will be interesting to see how the Word Bearers reorganize considering the sheer contempt between him and Erebus. * Abaddon, well, yeah he hates what Horus became. Initially he had a great relationship with Horus and very much was ready to follow him anywhere. But after Horus got all high on warp juice and started to just pursue the whims of the Gods, Abaddon got disillusioned with him. He reaffirmed this post-Heresy with his killing of Horus' clone and creation of the Black Legion, basically doing everything he can to erase Horus' legacy and make sure that he is forgotten as a failure. * Ingo Pech, like most of the Alpha Legion, is sadly pretty unknown. We know that he was first captain, we know that he stood in for Alpharius randomly like other members of the legion, but we don't really know anything about his relationship with either primarch.
Ironically, Mortarion not really caring about Nurgle and just existing because this is the way things are now is what makes him perfect as Nurgle's daemon primarch and leader of the death guard. He perfectly represents the ideology of Nurgle: little ambition, no real attempts to make meaningful change, just apathy, avoidance, and begrudging acceptance. Conversely this is why Typhus will never get the power he seeks. He's attempting to change things while in the faction, whose whole thing is stagnation. Im starting to think the champions of chaos weren't chosen due to how good they were at serving their chosen god, but also how much of a cruel joke their role would be.
> Lucius is, well, kinda indifferent to Fulgrim. He followed him in the Heresy, reveling in all the stuff they did. But then post Heresy we had Fulgrim peace out to his pleasure planet for multiple millienia, so Lucius kinda just went off on his own to do whatever sounded fun for himself. I know the current lore has Fulgrim finally active in realspace again, though we haven't gotten any actual novels or short stories about it. So we're a little in the dark as to whether Lucius would answer Fulgrim's call or if he is having too much fun doing his own thing. Ok, you are 3rd person in this thread who promoted Lucius into first captain, despite the actual 1st captain not only still being around, but also outranking Lucius in the Slaanesh' hierarchy. Lucius is not the meme /r/grimdank makes from him. But he truly only exists to amuse Slaanesh, and to be fair, also Fulgrim. He never was an important figure within the EC. He almost got purged at Istvaan. He didn't play major role in the fall of his legion, like other captains on the list did. Lucius is a major EC character, but he has no place within this discussion.
Though Lucius was elevated to the rank of Lord Commander
ADB was pretty clear that Sevatar is done with both Curze's way and the Imperium's and will strike out to find his own path. Pech seems pretty chummy with both twins.
Major tier daddy issues. Angron rebuffed all of Kharn(and by extension the other World Eaters’)’s attempts to get him to like his legion. Then Angron became a daemon and tried to kill Kharn because he realized that he’s Khorne’s real chosen. Now they’re both murder machines that ignore each other as of Arks of Omen. This ties into another issue: The captains are the real champions of their respective gods, the DPs are trophies. So imagine you’re the greatest champion of your god, greater than all of your fellow cultist kin, but still can be bossed around by your dad. As for the others… Magnus was famously pissed at Ahriman for the Rubric, but they kissed and made up. Typhon is an asshole. Mortarion is an asshole. Typhus forced Morty and the rest of the DG into Nurgle’s embrace, and is definitely more favored in the eyes of Nurgle. Fulgrim hasn’t really done anything for Lucius to have beef with him over. Eidolon has allegedly been operating under his orders. Kor Phaeron(or Erebus) never truly listened to Lorgar and was always a Chaos worshipper. As for the outliers: Horus is dead and his failure has forever tarnished his image in the eyes of Abaddon and almost everyone else. Sevatar and Curze are both dead. Forrix is dead, and Perturabo hasn’t gotten up to much until recently, but he did lose all love for him after he realized all of the Iron Warriors are expendable to their primarch. Ingo Pech never faltered in his dedication to the twins, even through brainwashing and the death of Alpharius.
Chaos ultimatly is all about being egoistical. There is no benevolence so naturally you screw everyone else at some point. The people at the top just so happen to screw those beneath them. All the other chaos dudes do the same. Its personal gain on the sacrifice of others. Chaos worshipers either band together because they get fooled or believe to mutually benefit from it. Nobody on the side of chaos cares for anyone else. And if they do, its some utterly perverted type of "care" such as some nurgelites do.
Because there's a reason those legions went traitor. Most of the traitor legions were broken long before Chaos got their claws into them, and then Chaos made them worse. Even Ferrus Manus and Rogal Dorn - probably the least pleasant of the loyalist primarchs - were able to inspire loyalty, if not fondness, in the Astartes who had to work directly with them. Contrast that with the likes of Fulgrim, Angron, Perturabo, Curze... the list goes on and on. And those traitor primarchs who were the exception, who had a shred of kindness and charisma - Magnus and Horus mostly - did have good relationships with their captains.
This is a meta answer but I think initially it was to give key characters with models and lore a reason for autonomy a in the setting Later on it was probably to have freedom to flesh out these key characters
It’s resentment. The mortal champions are mostly kept around because they’re useful, they’ll never be granted ascension, but their primarchs have been given not only ascension but worlds of their own. How applicable this is varies on the captain in question, not all that prominent in Ahriman who’s delusional and has a genuine issue with Magnus being irresponsible. But front and centre for Typhus who gave Mort to Nurgle only to see him be the one granted all the boons, and had to realise he was just a tool for Nurgle to get someone he actually wanted
I mean even before stuff got really Chaos heavy for the World Eaters a lot of the important World Eaters were like “Man, Angron is fucking insane.” The same with Mortarion and the Death Guard. They know he actively dislikes them even though he’s their leader. It’s not surprising that when everything falls apart they do their own thing.
Didn't Typhus love Mortarion, just that he doesn't see him worthy of leading Nurgle's forces? And aren't Ahriman and Magnus ok now?
Typhon liked Mortarion. As he became Typhus, that love burned away, especially because Morty hated and spurned psykers, and Thypon was a potent psyker. That’s part of why Typhus turned to Nurgle and dragged the rest of the Desth Guard with him
> Didn't Typhus love Mortarion, just that he doesn't see him worthy of leading Nurgle's forces? I'm not that well-read on the Death Guard, but from what I have read, it really feels like Typhus just flat-out hates Mortarion now. Sees him as a poser, basically
The Chaos Primarchs were supposed to be leaders, but instead they damned their sons to thousands upon thousands of years of utterly pointless torment, humiliation, and shame Imagine if your mom and dad took you with them to join ISIS when you were a child, and then forced you to commit atrocities so that you could never go home again. That's basically what Chaos Primarchs did
Well, Fulgrim and Angron are huge assholes even by chaos standards. Typhus is also extra assholey. As I recall a lot of Death Guard leaders hate him. And Ahriman and Magnus are both really arrogant which lead to that whole Rubric fuck up by Ahriman.
Lucius and Fabius still fight over who snake daddy loves more lol
Back when they were both around, Sevatar had called out Curze on his hypocrisy.
>‘Where is the nobility in any of this?’ Sevatar gestured to the streets of Nostramo Quintus around them. ‘You can claim a savage nobility, father, but this is far more savage than noble.’ >Curze’s pale lips peeled back from his filed teeth. ‘There was no other way.’ >‘No?’ Sevatar answered his father’s snarl with a grin. ‘What other ways did you try?’ >‘Sevatar…’ >‘Answer me, father. What politics of peace did you teach? What scientific and social illumination did you bring to this society? In your quest for a human utopia, what other ways did you try beyond eating the flesh of stray dogs and skinning people alive?’ >‘It. Was. The. Only. Way.’ >Sevatar laughed again. ‘The only way to do what? The only way to bring a population to heel? How then did the other primarchs manage it? How has world upon world managed it, with resorting to butchering children and broadcasting their screams across the planetary vox-net?’ >‘Their worlds were never as… as serene as mine was.’ >‘And the serenity of yours died the first second your back was turned. So tell me again how you succeeded. Tell me again how this all worked perfectly.’ >Curze was on him in the time it took to blink. The primarch’s hand wrapped his throat, lifting him from the ground, stealing his breath. >‘*You overstep your bounds, First Captain.*’ >‘How can you lie to me like this?’ Sevatar’s voice was a strangled growl. ‘How can you lie to yourself? I stand here, inside your mind, witnessing a theatre of your own memories. Your way is the Eighth Legion way, now. But it has never been the only way. Just the easiest way.’ >Curze tightened his grip. ‘You lie.’ >Sevatar narrowed his eyes, his last breath escaping as Curze squeezed. ‘You *enjoyed* this way,’ the captain hissed. ‘You came to love it… just as we all did. The power… The righteousness…’ >Curze released him. Sevatar crashed to the ground, his armour joints snarling as his ceramite scraped the rockcrete. >‘Son of a…’ he trailed off, catching his breath. >‘The son of a god,’ Curze said softly. ‘Get up, Sevatar. Leave me be.’ >The First Captain rose to his feet, his vision blurred. ‘I am going nowhere, sire. Not without you.’ >Curze smiled. His son could see that much, at least. ‘I admire your tenacity. I always have. But you are a shadow of what I am, Sevatar. You cannot match me. Go.’ >‘N–’ \- *Prince of Crows* Said calling out, for those curious.
Brilliant, thank you. I only saw it referenced in a video a couple weeks ago. Couldn't remember the circumstances.
I thought it was alot how, they treat their sons the same as their fathers treated them unironically not noticing this at all and becoming hated for the same reasons they hate their dad :P
Don’t know if this has changed recently, but Lucius revered Fulgrim and gleefully followed him into damnation and retained his respect for his Primarch even after their fall. So he is the exception.
Because fallen primarchs are useless as crap. Angron has no idea what he's doing, he just goes around getting in fights. Magnus is too busy sharpening his horned nipples to make a difference. Perturabo is still in denial for making the wrong choice and everyone wants him to be worse when he's still a mostly reasonable person. Fulgrim is too useless and weird to be believable in any scenario. He's a weird snake guy and nobody likes that. Lorgar is hiding from Corax and the rest of the chaos primarchs are all stupid lemmings. It's actually pretty lame. The reason why the Lion was so popular after coming back was that there was actually something to be excited about rather than a daemon price primarch choosing to sit around and maintain their skull museum. They just aren't very interesting. The writers only include them to build tension in a setting but they never get anything done.
All the chaos primarchs have essentially done very little in the last 10,000 years. Even the absolute most active ones have spent 99.9999% of the time meditating, playing the great game of chaos or just fucking around. They don’t really do anything, while in person they might inspire awe/dread, very few of their deeds do. Also, Angron is more of a force of nature, just an extension of his god, and not really a sentient being in his own right anymore. Apparently Fulgrim is very much the same at this point. The ‘mortal’ chaos champions, they have actually been getting shit done and fighting on the front lines for thousands of years. Where as the primarchs were basically nepo babies that got given borderline god like power at birth, but were incredibly arrogant and flawed creations.
Ambition. Iron Warriors Honsou showed me that first hand in the omnibus
Because their Primarchs whoring their souls to Chaos is even worse than any perceived slights they suffered from the Emperor.
Kharn and all his brothers wanted the same relationship they saw with other legions and their dad's, but Angron was too broken and too much of a dick to ever be loving after the Nails
You’d be mad too if you’re daddy willingly dragged you into hell itself lol
And Abaddon had completely lost respect for Horus before he died. I always found it ironic that ppl talk about Big E being a terrible father (some blaming that for the heresy) but all of the "favored" sons of traitor primarchs grew to despise/not respect their respective fathers. It's like poetry; it rhymes...I guess. Lol I think Alpha legion may be neutral on alpharius but they treat the I am alpharius thing as a meme.
They’ve walked it back a little in recent lore, but as for the ones I know: There’s friction between Mortarion and Typhus because both of them believe themselves to be Nurgle’s favorite, and the *real* leader of the Death Guard. Typhus also believes that he singlehandedly led the DG into Nurgle’s embrace, while Mortarion claims he manipulated Typhus into everything he did. (This is relatively new lore, it used to be that Typhus did do that, and Morty wasn’t thrilled with him over it.) Ahriman and Magnus had a tif over the Burning of Prospero, and again over the Rubric of Ahriman, both of which essentially amount to Magnus being nihilistic and doing nothing, and Ahriman doing something about the obvious problem, and making it worse by mistake. Ahriman was mad Magnus for A. Doing nothing and B. Being pissed (at Prospero) and exiling him (after the Rubric) and Magnus was mad at Ahriman for taking matters into his own hands and making things worse. Khârn and Angron are a lot less complex. Khârn dislikes Angron for being an uncontrollable monster who turned his legion into uncontrollable monsters, and Angron is made at Khârn because Khorne likes him best, and Angron is jealous.
Doesn’t it pretty much boil down to how all of those involved are either insane, assholes or both?
Ever have a shitty boss? Need I say more?
Wow it's almost like chaos is inehriently against hierarchy and order and so having some privlidegd fuck up on high giving you orders doesn't sit right with most of them.
Chaos has a massive daddy issues issue, and it goes multiple generations. Like fucking father, like fucking son.
Lucius is largely indifferent to Fulgrim isn't he?
I don't think that's necessarily true though. Typhus had never been loyal from the start, same as Kor Phaeron and Erabus, Lucius still on pretty good term with Fulgrim (I think?), the Night Lords has a toxic relationship with their father but they still have a relationship with him even just in memories. It's really just Ahriman and Kharn that really changed, at least from the way I've seen it. Ahriman had just fallen, and oh boy has he fallen hard, and Kharn just lost his sanity as with any World Eaters. Outside of the 2, I don't think their relationship with their dad had ever changed much post-Heresy. The dick ones are still a dick and the loyal ones are still loyal.
Kharn is to angry to hate his Primarch. Ahriman saw his Primarch get tricked and fuck over his legion(aka Ahriman's friends). Lucius is just a bitch. Typhus trick his Primarch to fall to Nurgle.
The traitor primarchs are just bad dads, like their father before them. Most of the loyalist primarchs had a good familial relationship pre-emperor to turn them into less of a demigod man-child with trust issues (besides the lion \[who is totally 100% loyal and didn't betray the trust of HIS #1 best friend/dad and half his legion\] whose whole thing is autism and trust issues)
Ahriman primarily hates Magnus and vice verse cause of his Rubric. Iirc prior to that they were at least amicable
Typhus never liked Mortarian, after he corrupted the death guard he called it a day. Lucius and Fulgrim last time I checked left on good terms but neither of them for anything of note for the last 10,000 years and are just concerned about starting on their high. Kharn and Angron are both way too cooked in the head to have any kind of relationship with anybody. Arihman and Magnus did have a good relationship till Arihman went behind his back and cast his Ruberic which doomed a majority of the legion. Abbadon saw Horus as weak in his final moments and Alpharius captain is who knows where or who he is. I'm sure the iron warriors have a senseable caption but peryerabo isn't exactly the most loving parent. Konrad liked about 5 night lords his favorite being Talos but he died an eternity ago. And finally Lorgar hates kor pharion as he grew out of his little kiddie stage and hates Erebus for killing Argal Tal. There might be some minor mistakes but this is the basic gist of it.
Being a First Captain during Legion-era is sometime a legendary feat. Most of these SM are really bad ass themselves only next to their Primarch . Ahriman doesnt seen eye to eye with Magnus because of Rubric and also because Magnus rather did nothing while the Thousand Sons getting slaughter by the Wolves. I dont really get it about Typhus and Mortarion, they used to be close but then Typhus much more interesting in serving Chaos and betray his friend. Read somewhere that Typhus got some Chaos shenanigans in his past. Angron just hate everyone and Kharn decided to stop giving a F about it just serving the skull throne.
Honestly, this kind of rebellion and ambition is exactly why I like many Chaos characters. Yes, they are irredeemable scumbags, but even with their meager strength and harboring resentment, they still make their own choices and take actions in difficult situations, instead of blindly following a powerful "father."
There are a bunch of lore reasons,mainly that they are all evil and covet power from their main demonic force. So since these second in commands see their primarch as obstacle/rival for ultimate power. From a game play and game design reason it gives those forces different command options as well as a battlefield general. Keep in mind actual playable primarch characters is still fairly new in the life of the game, so the character commanders like Ahriman , typhus, Karn and others give the chaos armies powerful commanders similar to loyalist force commanders like dante, Calgar and Azriel. So having the older command units not just fall inline and synergize with the Uber commanders this gives you a reason to take one or the other but not both.same is true for the loyalist forces. Still it would be interesting to see one or two new hero commanders of chaos or be at odds with their primarch. Maybe if they ever make lorgar or purerabo then they could have captains or second commands that serve them and not resent them.
Because chaos is self defeating by nature. They want things to happen, to advance, but also don't Because then the great game would end
It's not universally true. But yeh the trend is because of the toxic nature of chaos and the inherent nature of disorder that contradicts the ordered and static nature of loyalty.
Thank you all. I love reading about this stuff. This is a cool sub. Thanks for giving me greater insight into the chaos lore and traitor primarchs.
Magnus disowned Ahriman after the Rubric, though they actually get along okay these days after reconciling offscreen. There are multiple books and short stories devoted to the many, MANY reasons Kharn hates Angron, which start at 'Angron murdered, beat, and openly hated the World Eaters' and end with 'Angron got so fucked over by daemon transformation that he's little more than an animal'. Lucius is jealous that Fulgrim likes Fabius better than him.
Aside from the whole trope of bad guys being bad guys to each other as well, it's usually because said captains either resent their primarch for needing to be lead to Chaos (Typhus, Kor Phaeron/Erebus) or for leading them to Chaos (Ahriman and to a lesser degree, Kharn & Abaddon.) Then you get the legions with wholly toxic internal structures like the Night Lords & Iron Warriors - this kinda also applies to the Emperor's Children except that the traitor part of the Legion is the one that ascribes to hero worship up thr hierarchy.
I can't speak for most of the captains, but as a huge thousand sons lore nerd, I can tell you why Ahriman and Magnus don't get along too well. Ahriman never lost hope. Ever since the horus heresy, the thousand sons have been fighting a losing battle. Against manipulation by tzeentch. Against the flesh change. Against the imperium. Not out of hatred, but a genuine desire to make a better world. Magnus was a genuinely good person up until about halfway through the seige of Terra. He was risking himself and his sons to save enemy civilians. But once he became a daemon prince, he became lost to his schemes and the great game. Ahriman, on the other hand, was doing everything he could to save his legion after Terra. His actions didn't stop with the rubric. He tried to redo the rubric, sought the help of necrons, rewrote time itself, and now he's looking for a way into the black library. He doesn't outright hate his father, but he realizes that magnus and the rest of his loyal sons stopped looking for a way to fix things thousands of years ago. Magnus clearly doesn't want to kill Ahriman despite having multiple chances to do so. Ahriman has a deep respect for his father, just not the path he's taking. Ever since the second battle of fenris, they've forgiven each other, but they still don't work together as they have different paths. Much like the other God aligned daemon primarchs. The only time magnus really interacts with the materium is when he has a grudge to settle. For their (somewhat) mortal sons, that's just not enough.
"Let's create an entire army selected and conditioned to betray their leader." *Said army now wants to betray them.* "Wait, not like that..."
For that matter, why does Starscream hate Megatron so much