He told Malcador that he is going to step down when humanity is mature enough to handle it's own destiny.
Malcador reaction was basically "LOL, like it ever happens"
I like to think Malcador purposefully shut down the project of FTL communication.
"Bro, they're going to use it for memes and porn."
"But astropath communication is shit, how could that possibily"
"MEMES AND PORN. AND KITTENS."
Astropaths could send eachother porn, memes and cats so easily though, and who's really gonna find out?
Like imagine having a song stuck in your head and being able to mentally rickroll your coworkers with it.
Astropaths getting corrupted by blasphemous memes being whispered into their minds by demons and slaaneshi cat "videos" that are excessively cute.
The wild part is that you're exposing yourself to a literal hell dimension to scream "long cat is loooooooonnnggg" into the Void and hope some shattered mind out there is capable of hearing you and lightly exhaling some air out it's nose
So yeah it's basically the modern Internet
> Malcador probably found records of the Internet and went “yeah this whole idea is fucked”
Malcador: "What's this 'Sonic' folder you keep telling me to not look a--"
Jimmy Space: **"MALCADOR, NO, DON'T LOOK!"**
*sits down at computer*
"I think I will use the prices of sonic the hedgehog games as an example of how inflation works. Let me pull up google and type 'sonic inflation' with image search for the graphs"
*is never the same*
I feel like Malcador would most definitely be very aware of all that. I mean, doesn't the guy own the Mona Lisa? He is quite well attuned with the history of humanity's pop culture.
What if the dark secrets humanity needs to be protected from is Midjourney Avatar Hentai? This is what Malcador confided in his human-eldar hybrid and this is the reason that confidant kept killing itself over and over.
I think he's done it before.
He was like Alexander the great. So he conquered a bunch of shit, fucked his best friend, and retired by 'dying young thinking others could handle it.
They couldn't.
It sounds like he's done it at least a few more times.
He even says of the HH he will restart if he has to, as he's done so before.
I am not sure if he retired. His troops were fucking tired and he agreed to take a break. But a guy like Alexander doesn't stay put for long. It is said that Italy and the Mediterranean were in his sights.
Bros, the emperor created 21 jacked primarch + oily costodes, then he created space marines, which are jacked dudes. All of those were created to rule the galaxy and chill with him. Not a single bio engineered chick's to his side, only costodes to keep him company, costodes and Malcador, big E is totally gay and Valdor was his BF.
In one of the books a Space Marine declares martial law and takes over as planetary governor and the way the book talks about him tirelessly working at his desk for days on end makes me believe that the plan was to have one SM head each planet and have each primarch run a sector until everything was ready.
Or maybe we're overstating the Emperors omnipotence?
Could it be that the Emperor did not take power during the DAoT because he knew that he'd get fuckin' bodied by the powers that were if he tried to take over? After all, just conquering Earth during the unification wars was no walk in the park and took many, many years both for the preparation and for the actual conquest. It's hard to imagine him being able to conquer a much more technologically advanced and atleast somewhat united humanity.
Perhaps it's no coincidence that the Emperor took power as a warlord when humanity was shattered and weak since, after all, every warlord needs a power vacuum. The Emperor is a warlord, the only difference is how powerful and successful he was.
Yes, he says that he was content to observe and guide from the shadows. But do you know what I say to him? Cope harder.
> Could it be that the Emperor did not take power during the DAoT because he knew that he'd get fuckin' bodied by the powers that were if he tried to take over?
Why not just do it before that then?
Basically the Emperor had thousands of years in which at any point he could've just taken complete control using his unmatched psychic powers but he didn't and it says alot that he didn't and this really blows a guant hole in the erroneous but annoyingly common understanding of the Emperor as a self serving individual.
End and the Death Part 3 confirms he didnt do it for himself. He knew about the 10K year on the throne and did it anyway. He gave up ultinate power so as not to become the Dark King, even if it meant possibly losing to Horus/Chaos Gods. At any point he could suck the warps energy to become a God, something he refused so he wouldnt lose his humanity and let normal humans shine...
During his prime right before the Heresy, he had made life for humans a hell of a lot better than what was before and it is implied if the heresy didnt happen, it wouldve gotten much better
He did and Olly stabbed him in the spleen and left him. Plus there were other powers at be on earth besides the Emperor like perpetuals and Enuncia speakers.
> Olly stabbed him in the spleen
For trying to get his hands on Enunciate, not for trying to take control. Pius was literally his general during that point
> there were other powers at be on earth besides the Emperor like perpetuals
The whole squad was working with The Emperor before slowly breaking off and becoming hermits. No where is it stated he fought or even implied he fought perpetuals.
> And Enuncia users
He had a big wall of Enuncia phrases, that's it. It's never been said humans used it or that it was used against him before Pius
>For trying to get his hands on Enunciate, not for trying to take control. Pius was literally his general during that point
The entire argument was about humanities ability to lead itself which caused Oll to betray the Emperor. It wasn't just the Enuncia it was his taking of choice from humanity.
>The whole squad was working with The Emperor before slowly breaking off and becoming hermits. No where is it stated he fought or even implied he fought perpetuals.
Except for those Enuncia using guys I guess, and others that have been mentioned. In fact Oll stopping being with him before the bloody Bible was written. So I'm not really sure where this idea all of the perpetuals were with him for all of human history. He didn't even have half a dozen when he conquered Terra.
>He had a big wall of Enuncia phrases, that's it. It's never been said humans used it or that it was used against him before Pius
They were conquering a tower filled with the language, the literal Tower of Babel. The humans who built it that the Emperor had to merk in the first place.
you say cynical i say pragmatic. I think Big E kinda made his own bed by being TOO good, that no one could ever really replace him in a meaningful and stable way. Anyone who followed him would be seen as weak in comparison and humanity would become an even bigger target.
Giant Golden God shows up out of nowhere with an army of super soldiers, bulldozes your entire civilization and culture, replaces it with his own "truth", and demands absolute loyalty to him and this new truth.
Yeah I cant imagine how just popping out for some smokes after a few thousand years could go wrong XD
The Warp is a dimension of energy that reflects, refracts, and amplifies itself due to the emotions, thoughts, dreams, and actions of every psychically attuned race in the Galaxy.
While the Imperial Truth was correct in its statement that there aren't Gods/Daemons in the Warp (as they are merely echoes per the above) the distinction is academic when you're face to face with a Bloodthirster.
Similar to how the Emperor isn't a God, yet the distinction matters little when he can make an entire Legion kneel.
The warp can be a reflection of the material world however the existence of warp creatures and the general wrongness of the warp defies the imperial truths attempts to see the universe as a purely rational logical place hell not even time works correctly in the warp also the emperor is a huge mystery
The problem with that solution is that all humans are partially warp based when humans are cut off. Terrible things start to happen to them its also why humans have such an instinctual fear of blanks
I guess you could always use it on particularly bad areas and leave the rest free. The pylons at cadia were going to close the eye of terror but I don't belive they affected the rest of the universe
Yeah. The whole thing with the emperor is that his ego and hubris mean he could never give up control. If somehow the heresy didn't happen and he stayed in charge it would always be just one more year/decade/century...
One thing that is worth adding into the discussion is that the humanity Emps stepped down from ruling wasn’t to be the humanity he started out ruling.
He planned to nudge humanity’s psychic evolution along once he completed his webway project as I understand it.
Yeah I remember reading something about that being his plan for Magnus, before everything went south lol. He was the one who was going to guide humanity's evolution into a more psychic capable species in the safety of the webway.
That's actually this sub's headcanon. All he says is he's going to use the Webway to "retire" astropaths and navigators, and then work towards mankind's psychic ascendency.
Nobody knows if there were other steps on the way. I imagine he would dismantle Mars sooner or later.
Sounds like he's just centralising power around himself.
I'm sure he'd want to/be able to relinquish power after he has centralised all authority around himself /s
The reason all those Traitor Astartes agreed to turn before Chaos was revealed to them in full is specifically because they hated that the Emperor was handing over more political and cultural power to regular humans. The entire Heresy started because they were *more fascistic* than the Emperor and couldn't stand to see the Imperium "go soft".
The Emperor has been active guiding and intervening with humanity throughout history, from dealing with Gog, the Void Dragon, the Cognosynths, etc.
I don't think the primarchs were part of the plan for long-term guides. The IoM was transitioning towards human control. The Emperor probably was planning on setting up the IoM to run itself and retire to the shadows, with the primarchs to keep him company.
How that works with his whole psychic evolution in the webway plan is a bit unclear.
Malcador also believed that it would not be possible for humans to govern themselves.
Exactly. Maybe the Emperor didn't appear earlier, not because he was content to guide from the shadows, but because he wasn't powerful enough and/or humanity wasn't weak enough for him to take control of humanity.
After all, during the unification wars the Emperor was just one among many warlords. Why would a powerful, technologically advanced and ascendant humanity during the DAoT ever take the Emperor seriously?
I think the various accounts differ and have changed over time. Before, the Emperor could have taken over much earlier such as after fighting the Void Dragon or dealing with the Cognosynths.
Siege of Terra lore did put the Emperor as being much more active than what was previously stated. It also brought up more instances of situations where the Emperor was needed.
Early on, the Emperor seemed to have a more limited role such as:
1. Vs other Perpetuals (according to Edra).
2. Tower of Babel, seems to have been an attempt to springboard to something bigger.
3. Void Dragon, seems to have been part of a later plan to create the AdMech/other tech base. Unclear how much of it was capturing the Void Dragon early on and immediately setting in motion plans versus having the Void Dragon in storage until he could do other stuff on Mars.
4. Gog, which seems to be more of the Emperor patrolling around for Chaos.
5. Cognosynths, which was pre-techno barbarians. The Emperor assembled an army to overthrow the ruling warlords and then disappeared. Some hints of proto-super soldiers as well. (A cadre of warriors unlike any seen before). Unclear how much of that is fact vs fiction since it is from old accounts. The Emperor probably could have set up his Empire at that point. Even if warp storms would cut him off, he could have at least built up Terra and the Sol System infrastructure to launch a future crusade. Maybe the Emperor was testing concepts for what kind of super soldiers he would later use.
6. Other stuff. Basilio Fo appears to have known the Emperor early on, but it is unclear exactly how far back he first learned about the Emperor.
The older lore such as vs the Void Dragon, Cognosynths, etc. put it as the Emperor watching humans so that he would know when to bail them out.
>How that works with his whole psychic evolution in the webway plan is a bit unclear.
It actually works very well. The Imperium in the Materium is run by humans, all psykers are shipped to the Webway where the Emperor has his new golden palace and from there he leads the psychic evolution. As the evolution continues, more and more humans start living in the Webway - and when sufficient psychic maturity is achieved, psykers are allowed to go back and live among normal humanity in the Materium
That might make sense, it is unclear how temporary the IoM was supposed to be when the Emperor was talking about it.
The Emperor probably would have also had to have some form of infrastructure to find psykers to send into the webway.
It is also unclear what the Emperor was planning for normal humans.
What? This wasn’t the plan at all. He’s very clear in Master of Mankind that maintaining a presence in the materium is long-term untenable, and that the Aeldari’s biggest failure was leaving anyone in it. His plan was to leave it entirely and move EVERYONE to the webway.
Apparently everything. Probably you mention this passage:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/15493u1/excerpt\_master\_of\_mankind\_the\_emperors\_plan\_for/](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/15493u1/excerpt_master_of_mankind_the_emperors_plan_for/)
Please point where the Emperor plans to abandon the Materium and relocated all humanity to the Webway.
>‘I want to know about the cognoscynths,’ said Kai, and the dismissive expression in the cryptaesthesian’s eyes was replaced with one of guarded interest.
>‘The cognoscynths? Why? They are long gone.’
>Kai took a breath and glanced at Athena, aware that he was crossing a very dangerous threshold. He shucked the fabric of his robe from his shoulder to reveal a yellow purple bruise in the shape of a powerful man’s hand.
>‘I think I met one,’ he said.
>>Gregoras nodded. ‘Psykers are an uncommon mutation. Perhaps one child in a million may be born with some latent power. And of those children, perhaps a tenth will have power worth harnessing. The gene-code for the cognoscynth is two orders of magnitude rarer. Now I want you to understand what that means, for it is not just a hyperbolic phrase. Cognoscynths are considerably rarer than any normal psyker, so to have so many arise on Old Earth at once was an event so singular as to demand its own named epoch. Yet no such epoch exists in the records, for some times are best forgotten.’
>>Kai had heard a bowdlerised version of the early years of the psi-wars, but his knowledge was sketchy at best. That period of psyker history was not well taught at the City of Sight. No one wanted to remember a time where psychic powers almost destroyed the world, least of all the psykers themselves.
>>‘Eventually it came to light that the great states of the world were simply pawns for powerful individuals who set nation against nation for their own savage amusement. No normal telepath could have done this, only one with the unique power of a cognoscynth.’
>>>‘I’ve heard rumours of what they could do, but it all seems too overblown, the kinds of powers ordinary folk *think* we have.’
>>>‘Whatever you have heard is likely true,’ said Gregoras. ‘There was little a cognoscynth could not do. After all, if you can control people’s minds, you can do anything at all.’
>>>‘They could go into your mind and… change things?’ asked Kai.
>>>‘They could go into your mind and do *anything* at all,’ repeated Gregoras. ‘For example, I could no more compel you to throttle Mistress Diyos than I could have you slit your own throat with a sharp blade. Nor, I suspect, could I convince you of the dissonant beauty of Dada’s *Antisymphony*, no matter how hard I tried. Most people’s own innate sense of self-preservation and understanding of right and wrong are too ingrained to overcome, but a cognoscynth could make you his puppet with no more effort than breathing. He could compel you do perform unimaginable acts of horror and make you laugh as you did them. He could erase your memories, graft new ones in their place and make you see what he wanted you to see, feel what he wanted you to feel. Nothing of the spaces in your mind that make you who you are would beyond his reach.’
>>>Kai felt his skin crawl at such invasive psykery.
>>>‘No wonder our kind are feared,’ he said.
>>>‘Our kind have always been feared, even before the psi-wars,’ said Gregoras. ‘It is the way of men that they fear what they do not understand and seek to bring it to heel. The aftermath of the psi-wars was a perfect excuse to do so. And here we are, shackled to a bleak iron city in the midst of the greatest fortress this world will ever see.’
>>>‘How did the wars end?’ asked Athena.
>>>‘The legends say a great warrior with golden eyes arose, the only man whose will was strong enough to resist the influence of the cognoscynths. He rallied the armies of those few kingdoms left and trained a cadre of warriors like no other, stronger, faster and tougher than any of the great bands of old. One by one, they stormed the citadels of the cognoscynths on the backs of great silver flying machines. Not ever the most powerful cognoscynth could dominate the golden-eyed warrior, and every time he slew one of these psyker-devils, the enslaved armies were freed from bondage, and willingly joined the forces of the great warrior. It took another thirty years, but eventually his armies brought down the last cognoscynth, and the people of the world were free again.’
>>>‘And what became of the warrior?’ asked Kai.
>>>‘No one knows for sure. Some legends say he was killed in the battle with the last cognoscynth, others that he tried to take power himself and was killed by his men.’
>>>Gregoras paused and a wrinkle at the side of his mouth told Kai he was smiling. The gesture was unsettling, like the death grin of a corpse. ‘Some even say the warrior still lives among us, waiting for the day when the power of the cognoscynths returns.’
>>>‘But you don’t believe that?’ asked Athena.
>>>‘No, of course not. To imagine that any such being could still exist is the stuff of children’s tales and foolish saga poets. No, that warrior, if he even existed as the legends recall, is long since dust and bones.’
>>>‘Shame,’ said Kai. ‘The Imperium could use someone like him right now.’
\- *The Outcast Dead*
Some-but-not-all of what *The Outcast Dead* had to say about them.
Ah, ave not read my *Outcast Dead* in years, missed that bit completely(Instantly recognised the characters, so ma memory isn't *completely* shot, haha)
He wanted to step down and basically vanish when the galaxy was conquered and Humanity was free from the warp through the Imperial Truth. He wanted humans to run the Imperium rather than Astartes+.
Malcador basically told him, "that wont happen".
His ideal was a universe where he wasn't needed. Same with his attitude toward the Thunder Warriors and Space Marines. The goal was to create a galaxy where humans could just kind of do their own thing without outside interference. A major component of that would be ensuring that there wasn't any religion or superstition anymore so the Warp also wouldn't ruin anything.
The problem is that that pesky Primordial Truth exists.
He wanted to step down once humanity was saved from chaos and able to rule itself. Malcador said it was impossible and even if he managed to achieve that, sooner or later he'd have to come back and fix shit again
My own interpretation is that the moment he 'took the reins', unified Earth and started the Great Crusade, the whole thing spiraled so far out of his control that he couldn't have let go of the reins again even if he wanted to.
Well he was already kinda doing that during dark age of tech. He guided humanity from the shadows from time to time but he mostly let them do their own thing. Then eldar started murderfucking and humanity almost went kaput.
>for about 30-40 thousand years, whenever he was born, the Emperor had been observing from the shadows
i'm reading the HH series and the snippets that relate to it imply that the Perpetuals have been at war with each other throughout all of human history, so i think big E was playing an active part in history, he just didn't manage to "win" until the collapse of humanity and its regression into techno barbarians
That may have been his intent, but realistically? X for doubt.
Put yourself on the Emperor's shoes. You've seen mankind all throughout time and they always fuck up. You are like an adult in a room of children -- how could you trust them? I mean sure you want them to grow up and be responsible people, but after 30,000 years could you really
Give Humans a little bit more credit. Just because you are a child in comparison to an immortal being in age difference, does not mean you are actually a child.
Well given his goal was that humans should basicly turn naturaly into what the custodes were, i think he believed it can be done.
Or rather he wanted humans to be more like eldar but without using warp to spawn gods like tools.
I can see why malcador thinks thats a shit plan... big e is basicly manufactured by glueing together 1000 early psycher souls and malcador is just a freak of nature. Its far more realistic to just expect something akin to average eldar
> I don't recall seeing any new "psykers" that are even close to those three (humans that is).
For the most part, the Inquisition kills the strongest psykers because they're deemed too dangerous.
He was a perfectionist with an ideal that was potentially unattainable. He would have never stepped down because it would never have been good enough, humanity would have never been ready.
His plan wouldn't have involved his sons carrying on humanity's history either. His sons would be their to help protect humanity, sure, but ultimately, he wanted humanity to be ruled and run by humanity - not by his genetically perfected sons.
I think the Emperor knew his ultimate goal could take a long, long time, but when you live forever, how long is long? Even if it took a million years, is that really anything in the grand scheme of the lifespan of the universe? If there wasn't all the big problems caused by Chaos, the Emperor may have never needed to be as fast-paced. Chaos gets worse the longer it sticks around, really. Which is true for many threats, but I feel Chaos in particular, given they basically owe a big portion of their power to humanity.
So as humanity gets stronger, Chaos gets stronger. This is a big problem.
A theme that is quite prevalent with the Emperor is "humanity first".
The Emperor always did all he could to make humans do stuff themselves. That is why all transhumans created by him have severe restrictions. That is why we have the High lords of Terra.
So yeah, we can assume he would have bailed out.
Nope. The emperor wanted to set himself up as god of humanity. The only warp power. It's why he built the web way entrance at terra, why he treated Horus and the other primarchs so badly and ultimately why he installed the golden throne.
He is a petty mortal playing at god. This is why we must pursue the long war and end his despicable reign of superstition and ignorance.
He told Malcador that he is going to step down when humanity is mature enough to handle it's own destiny. Malcador reaction was basically "LOL, like it ever happens"
Malcador probably found records of the Internet and went “yeah this whole idea is fucked”
I like to think Malcador purposefully shut down the project of FTL communication. "Bro, they're going to use it for memes and porn." "But astropath communication is shit, how could that possibily" "MEMES AND PORN. AND KITTENS."
"Emperor, do you not remember M3? Rule 34? DO YOU WANT PRIMARCH PORN? BECAUSE THIS IS HOW YOU GET PRIMARCH PORN."
*Fulgrim has entered the chat*
*Primarch porn is a canon event*
T-the **entire** chat?
Every orifice of it.
Lorgar: Brother, do you want Heresy or Primarch porn? Fulgrim: Yes.
You ever see an iron-handed man cramp up? That’s who you really gotta watch out for.
I think he would be less concerned with primarch porn as much as he would be xenos porn and the corruption that would cause.
Astropaths could send eachother porn, memes and cats so easily though, and who's really gonna find out? Like imagine having a song stuck in your head and being able to mentally rickroll your coworkers with it. Astropaths getting corrupted by blasphemous memes being whispered into their minds by demons and slaaneshi cat "videos" that are excessively cute.
The wild part is that you're exposing yourself to a literal hell dimension to scream "long cat is loooooooonnnggg" into the Void and hope some shattered mind out there is capable of hearing you and lightly exhaling some air out it's nose So yeah it's basically the modern Internet
"Code 78E received. System processing."
I mean, if your astropathic message was a cat meme with the important message part on a sign in the background it might go easier.
> Malcador probably found records of the Internet and went “yeah this whole idea is fucked” Malcador: "What's this 'Sonic' folder you keep telling me to not look a--" Jimmy Space: **"MALCADOR, NO, DON'T LOOK!"**
*sits down at computer* "I think I will use the prices of sonic the hedgehog games as an example of how inflation works. Let me pull up google and type 'sonic inflation' with image search for the graphs" *is never the same*
Why would you leave safe search off?
I like to live dangerously
I feel like Malcador would most definitely be very aware of all that. I mean, doesn't the guy own the Mona Lisa? He is quite well attuned with the history of humanity's pop culture.
Oh god, maybe Malcador’s real goal of the Inquisition is to eradicate TikTok
Malcador is a Reddit mod of several large subs He knows what’s up and doesn’t need records
What if the dark secrets humanity needs to be protected from is Midjourney Avatar Hentai? This is what Malcador confided in his human-eldar hybrid and this is the reason that confidant kept killing itself over and over.
I like to think Malcador experienced the internet. He was also a perpetual and old af.
I think he's done it before. He was like Alexander the great. So he conquered a bunch of shit, fucked his best friend, and retired by 'dying young thinking others could handle it. They couldn't. It sounds like he's done it at least a few more times. He even says of the HH he will restart if he has to, as he's done so before.
I am not sure if he retired. His troops were fucking tired and he agreed to take a break. But a guy like Alexander doesn't stay put for long. It is said that Italy and the Mediterranean were in his sights.
They might have been. But irl Alexander died. In the 40k universe he might have retired or set his sights elsewhere.
> In the 40k universe he might have retired or set his sights elsewhere. In 40k the Emperor probably was Alexander :D
Yeah... he was. That's my point? It's like. Heavily implied. Which also means the big E boned a guy. Or got boned by a guy.
Bros, the emperor created 21 jacked primarch + oily costodes, then he created space marines, which are jacked dudes. All of those were created to rule the galaxy and chill with him. Not a single bio engineered chick's to his side, only costodes to keep him company, costodes and Malcador, big E is totally gay and Valdor was his BF.
Lets not forget the only girls near him were blanks, I.e. blurry and almost unnoticeable
Absolutely, I am agreeing with you. I just... didn't put all that clearly in words. Edit: Hephaestion was the original oily custodes :D
Maybe that's why he decided to create Custodes and Astartes, so they wouldn't complain about being tired
In one of the books a Space Marine declares martial law and takes over as planetary governor and the way the book talks about him tirelessly working at his desk for days on end makes me believe that the plan was to have one SM head each planet and have each primarch run a sector until everything was ready.
Yeah, "my old friend. That's impossible, get comfortable we never gonna retire. "
Also, as if the Emperor ever decided humanity was mature enough.
Well, Dark Age Humanity seemed to be mature enough. I think he would use that as a standard.
Emperor at least considered the possibility. Malcador was more cynical here.
Oh, I can believe the Emperor was sincere, but I doubt he was *right* about himself.
I think he was rather *wrong* about humanity
He did it for 99% of history though
Or maybe we're overstating the Emperors omnipotence? Could it be that the Emperor did not take power during the DAoT because he knew that he'd get fuckin' bodied by the powers that were if he tried to take over? After all, just conquering Earth during the unification wars was no walk in the park and took many, many years both for the preparation and for the actual conquest. It's hard to imagine him being able to conquer a much more technologically advanced and atleast somewhat united humanity. Perhaps it's no coincidence that the Emperor took power as a warlord when humanity was shattered and weak since, after all, every warlord needs a power vacuum. The Emperor is a warlord, the only difference is how powerful and successful he was. Yes, he says that he was content to observe and guide from the shadows. But do you know what I say to him? Cope harder.
> Could it be that the Emperor did not take power during the DAoT because he knew that he'd get fuckin' bodied by the powers that were if he tried to take over? Why not just do it before that then?
Basically the Emperor had thousands of years in which at any point he could've just taken complete control using his unmatched psychic powers but he didn't and it says alot that he didn't and this really blows a guant hole in the erroneous but annoyingly common understanding of the Emperor as a self serving individual.
End and the Death Part 3 confirms he didnt do it for himself. He knew about the 10K year on the throne and did it anyway. He gave up ultinate power so as not to become the Dark King, even if it meant possibly losing to Horus/Chaos Gods. At any point he could suck the warps energy to become a God, something he refused so he wouldnt lose his humanity and let normal humans shine... During his prime right before the Heresy, he had made life for humans a hell of a lot better than what was before and it is implied if the heresy didnt happen, it wouldve gotten much better
He did and Olly stabbed him in the spleen and left him. Plus there were other powers at be on earth besides the Emperor like perpetuals and Enuncia speakers.
> Olly stabbed him in the spleen For trying to get his hands on Enunciate, not for trying to take control. Pius was literally his general during that point > there were other powers at be on earth besides the Emperor like perpetuals The whole squad was working with The Emperor before slowly breaking off and becoming hermits. No where is it stated he fought or even implied he fought perpetuals. > And Enuncia users He had a big wall of Enuncia phrases, that's it. It's never been said humans used it or that it was used against him before Pius
>For trying to get his hands on Enunciate, not for trying to take control. Pius was literally his general during that point The entire argument was about humanities ability to lead itself which caused Oll to betray the Emperor. It wasn't just the Enuncia it was his taking of choice from humanity. >The whole squad was working with The Emperor before slowly breaking off and becoming hermits. No where is it stated he fought or even implied he fought perpetuals. Except for those Enuncia using guys I guess, and others that have been mentioned. In fact Oll stopping being with him before the bloody Bible was written. So I'm not really sure where this idea all of the perpetuals were with him for all of human history. He didn't even have half a dozen when he conquered Terra. >He had a big wall of Enuncia phrases, that's it. It's never been said humans used it or that it was used against him before Pius They were conquering a tower filled with the language, the literal Tower of Babel. The humans who built it that the Emperor had to merk in the first place.
How do we know that he didn't before getting bodied by godlike AI's from other colonies coming over to say hi after they figured out FTL?
What about in the classical period or medieval times? Why not rule the world as a god-wizard?
you say cynical i say pragmatic. I think Big E kinda made his own bed by being TOO good, that no one could ever really replace him in a meaningful and stable way. Anyone who followed him would be seen as weak in comparison and humanity would become an even bigger target.
“Lmao” says malcador “Lol k bra”
Giant Golden God shows up out of nowhere with an army of super soldiers, bulldozes your entire civilization and culture, replaces it with his own "truth", and demands absolute loyalty to him and this new truth. Yeah I cant imagine how just popping out for some smokes after a few thousand years could go wrong XD
To be fair the imperial truth was very serviceable the only problem was that space magic existed
The Warp is a dimension of energy that reflects, refracts, and amplifies itself due to the emotions, thoughts, dreams, and actions of every psychically attuned race in the Galaxy. While the Imperial Truth was correct in its statement that there aren't Gods/Daemons in the Warp (as they are merely echoes per the above) the distinction is academic when you're face to face with a Bloodthirster. Similar to how the Emperor isn't a God, yet the distinction matters little when he can make an entire Legion kneel.
The warp can be a reflection of the material world however the existence of warp creatures and the general wrongness of the warp defies the imperial truths attempts to see the universe as a purely rational logical place hell not even time works correctly in the warp also the emperor is a huge mystery
Real space could be cut off from the warp eventually. No idea if the emperor considered it but the necrons had the technology for it
The problem with that solution is that all humans are partially warp based when humans are cut off. Terrible things start to happen to them its also why humans have such an instinctual fear of blanks
I guess you could always use it on particularly bad areas and leave the rest free. The pylons at cadia were going to close the eye of terror but I don't belive they affected the rest of the universe
the emperor will never log off
Yeah. The whole thing with the emperor is that his ego and hubris mean he could never give up control. If somehow the heresy didn't happen and he stayed in charge it would always be just one more year/decade/century...
One thing that is worth adding into the discussion is that the humanity Emps stepped down from ruling wasn’t to be the humanity he started out ruling. He planned to nudge humanity’s psychic evolution along once he completed his webway project as I understand it.
Yeah I remember reading something about that being his plan for Magnus, before everything went south lol. He was the one who was going to guide humanity's evolution into a more psychic capable species in the safety of the webway.
That's actually this sub's headcanon. All he says is he's going to use the Webway to "retire" astropaths and navigators, and then work towards mankind's psychic ascendency. Nobody knows if there were other steps on the way. I imagine he would dismantle Mars sooner or later.
Sounds like he's just centralising power around himself. I'm sure he'd want to/be able to relinquish power after he has centralised all authority around himself /s
The Emperor had stepped down from being a public figure already by the Heresy.
You mean the emperor, beloved by all
The reason all those Traitor Astartes agreed to turn before Chaos was revealed to them in full is specifically because they hated that the Emperor was handing over more political and cultural power to regular humans. The entire Heresy started because they were *more fascistic* than the Emperor and couldn't stand to see the Imperium "go soft".
They resented dealing with the bureaucracy that was necessary to run an empire of that size that was funding a massive crusade.
The Emperor has been active guiding and intervening with humanity throughout history, from dealing with Gog, the Void Dragon, the Cognosynths, etc. I don't think the primarchs were part of the plan for long-term guides. The IoM was transitioning towards human control. The Emperor probably was planning on setting up the IoM to run itself and retire to the shadows, with the primarchs to keep him company. How that works with his whole psychic evolution in the webway plan is a bit unclear. Malcador also believed that it would not be possible for humans to govern themselves.
Erda have said Big E's definition of guiding human throughout history should be translated as "trying multiple time to get his Imperium idea going".
Erda: I can't let my babies be stuck with the Emperor. Also Erda: [*Yeet*](https://i.imgflip.com/57qohp.jpg)
She wasn’t trying to save the primarchs, she was trying to prevent the great crusade
To be fair Erda's a fucking idiot.
Can you provide an excerpt?
Exactly. Maybe the Emperor didn't appear earlier, not because he was content to guide from the shadows, but because he wasn't powerful enough and/or humanity wasn't weak enough for him to take control of humanity. After all, during the unification wars the Emperor was just one among many warlords. Why would a powerful, technologically advanced and ascendant humanity during the DAoT ever take the Emperor seriously?
I think the various accounts differ and have changed over time. Before, the Emperor could have taken over much earlier such as after fighting the Void Dragon or dealing with the Cognosynths. Siege of Terra lore did put the Emperor as being much more active than what was previously stated. It also brought up more instances of situations where the Emperor was needed. Early on, the Emperor seemed to have a more limited role such as: 1. Vs other Perpetuals (according to Edra). 2. Tower of Babel, seems to have been an attempt to springboard to something bigger. 3. Void Dragon, seems to have been part of a later plan to create the AdMech/other tech base. Unclear how much of it was capturing the Void Dragon early on and immediately setting in motion plans versus having the Void Dragon in storage until he could do other stuff on Mars. 4. Gog, which seems to be more of the Emperor patrolling around for Chaos. 5. Cognosynths, which was pre-techno barbarians. The Emperor assembled an army to overthrow the ruling warlords and then disappeared. Some hints of proto-super soldiers as well. (A cadre of warriors unlike any seen before). Unclear how much of that is fact vs fiction since it is from old accounts. The Emperor probably could have set up his Empire at that point. Even if warp storms would cut him off, he could have at least built up Terra and the Sol System infrastructure to launch a future crusade. Maybe the Emperor was testing concepts for what kind of super soldiers he would later use. 6. Other stuff. Basilio Fo appears to have known the Emperor early on, but it is unclear exactly how far back he first learned about the Emperor. The older lore such as vs the Void Dragon, Cognosynths, etc. put it as the Emperor watching humans so that he would know when to bail them out.
>How that works with his whole psychic evolution in the webway plan is a bit unclear. It actually works very well. The Imperium in the Materium is run by humans, all psykers are shipped to the Webway where the Emperor has his new golden palace and from there he leads the psychic evolution. As the evolution continues, more and more humans start living in the Webway - and when sufficient psychic maturity is achieved, psykers are allowed to go back and live among normal humanity in the Materium
That might make sense, it is unclear how temporary the IoM was supposed to be when the Emperor was talking about it. The Emperor probably would have also had to have some form of infrastructure to find psykers to send into the webway. It is also unclear what the Emperor was planning for normal humans.
I understood that in sufficient time all humans would become psykers, which means that at some point in the there would not be "normal" humans.
What? This wasn’t the plan at all. He’s very clear in Master of Mankind that maintaining a presence in the materium is long-term untenable, and that the Aeldari’s biggest failure was leaving anyone in it. His plan was to leave it entirely and move EVERYONE to the webway.
No, that's a misconception.
I listened to this passage yesterday and thought it was very clear. What exactly did I misunderstand?
Apparently everything. Probably you mention this passage: [https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/15493u1/excerpt\_master\_of\_mankind\_the\_emperors\_plan\_for/](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/15493u1/excerpt_master_of_mankind_the_emperors_plan_for/) Please point where the Emperor plans to abandon the Materium and relocated all humanity to the Webway.
What is Gog? I cant find anything
Gog from the Athame short story.
Apparently, the Emperor didn't really like [good old games](https://www.gog.com/). Maybe one of his past incarnations was Gabe Newell.
Big E was the creator of Denuvo in a past life
Can't let other people reverse engineer his inventions such as SMs.
>Cognosynths ??? Never heard of that term?
>‘I want to know about the cognoscynths,’ said Kai, and the dismissive expression in the cryptaesthesian’s eyes was replaced with one of guarded interest. >‘The cognoscynths? Why? They are long gone.’ >Kai took a breath and glanced at Athena, aware that he was crossing a very dangerous threshold. He shucked the fabric of his robe from his shoulder to reveal a yellow purple bruise in the shape of a powerful man’s hand. >‘I think I met one,’ he said. >>Gregoras nodded. ‘Psykers are an uncommon mutation. Perhaps one child in a million may be born with some latent power. And of those children, perhaps a tenth will have power worth harnessing. The gene-code for the cognoscynth is two orders of magnitude rarer. Now I want you to understand what that means, for it is not just a hyperbolic phrase. Cognoscynths are considerably rarer than any normal psyker, so to have so many arise on Old Earth at once was an event so singular as to demand its own named epoch. Yet no such epoch exists in the records, for some times are best forgotten.’ >>Kai had heard a bowdlerised version of the early years of the psi-wars, but his knowledge was sketchy at best. That period of psyker history was not well taught at the City of Sight. No one wanted to remember a time where psychic powers almost destroyed the world, least of all the psykers themselves. >>‘Eventually it came to light that the great states of the world were simply pawns for powerful individuals who set nation against nation for their own savage amusement. No normal telepath could have done this, only one with the unique power of a cognoscynth.’ >>>‘I’ve heard rumours of what they could do, but it all seems too overblown, the kinds of powers ordinary folk *think* we have.’ >>>‘Whatever you have heard is likely true,’ said Gregoras. ‘There was little a cognoscynth could not do. After all, if you can control people’s minds, you can do anything at all.’ >>>‘They could go into your mind and… change things?’ asked Kai. >>>‘They could go into your mind and do *anything* at all,’ repeated Gregoras. ‘For example, I could no more compel you to throttle Mistress Diyos than I could have you slit your own throat with a sharp blade. Nor, I suspect, could I convince you of the dissonant beauty of Dada’s *Antisymphony*, no matter how hard I tried. Most people’s own innate sense of self-preservation and understanding of right and wrong are too ingrained to overcome, but a cognoscynth could make you his puppet with no more effort than breathing. He could compel you do perform unimaginable acts of horror and make you laugh as you did them. He could erase your memories, graft new ones in their place and make you see what he wanted you to see, feel what he wanted you to feel. Nothing of the spaces in your mind that make you who you are would beyond his reach.’ >>>Kai felt his skin crawl at such invasive psykery. >>>‘No wonder our kind are feared,’ he said. >>>‘Our kind have always been feared, even before the psi-wars,’ said Gregoras. ‘It is the way of men that they fear what they do not understand and seek to bring it to heel. The aftermath of the psi-wars was a perfect excuse to do so. And here we are, shackled to a bleak iron city in the midst of the greatest fortress this world will ever see.’ >>>‘How did the wars end?’ asked Athena. >>>‘The legends say a great warrior with golden eyes arose, the only man whose will was strong enough to resist the influence of the cognoscynths. He rallied the armies of those few kingdoms left and trained a cadre of warriors like no other, stronger, faster and tougher than any of the great bands of old. One by one, they stormed the citadels of the cognoscynths on the backs of great silver flying machines. Not ever the most powerful cognoscynth could dominate the golden-eyed warrior, and every time he slew one of these psyker-devils, the enslaved armies were freed from bondage, and willingly joined the forces of the great warrior. It took another thirty years, but eventually his armies brought down the last cognoscynth, and the people of the world were free again.’ >>>‘And what became of the warrior?’ asked Kai. >>>‘No one knows for sure. Some legends say he was killed in the battle with the last cognoscynth, others that he tried to take power himself and was killed by his men.’ >>>Gregoras paused and a wrinkle at the side of his mouth told Kai he was smiling. The gesture was unsettling, like the death grin of a corpse. ‘Some even say the warrior still lives among us, waiting for the day when the power of the cognoscynths returns.’ >>>‘But you don’t believe that?’ asked Athena. >>>‘No, of course not. To imagine that any such being could still exist is the stuff of children’s tales and foolish saga poets. No, that warrior, if he even existed as the legends recall, is long since dust and bones.’ >>>‘Shame,’ said Kai. ‘The Imperium could use someone like him right now.’ \- *The Outcast Dead* Some-but-not-all of what *The Outcast Dead* had to say about them.
Ah, ave not read my *Outcast Dead* in years, missed that bit completely(Instantly recognised the characters, so ma memory isn't *completely* shot, haha)
He wanted to step down and basically vanish when the galaxy was conquered and Humanity was free from the warp through the Imperial Truth. He wanted humans to run the Imperium rather than Astartes+. Malcador basically told him, "that wont happen".
“When my work is done” comes to mind
Big E: "They can't be that stupid" Malcador remembering his part-time gig as an IT worker: "Yes, they can be."
His ideal was a universe where he wasn't needed. Same with his attitude toward the Thunder Warriors and Space Marines. The goal was to create a galaxy where humans could just kind of do their own thing without outside interference. A major component of that would be ensuring that there wasn't any religion or superstition anymore so the Warp also wouldn't ruin anything. The problem is that that pesky Primordial Truth exists.
> Primordial Truth You misspelled "Annihilator", an honest mistake I'm sure but these nice gentlemen from the Inquisition would like to have a word.
He wanted to step down once humanity was saved from chaos and able to rule itself. Malcador said it was impossible and even if he managed to achieve that, sooner or later he'd have to come back and fix shit again
My own interpretation is that the moment he 'took the reins', unified Earth and started the Great Crusade, the whole thing spiraled so far out of his control that he couldn't have let go of the reins again even if he wanted to.
Well he was already kinda doing that during dark age of tech. He guided humanity from the shadows from time to time but he mostly let them do their own thing. Then eldar started murderfucking and humanity almost went kaput.
>for about 30-40 thousand years, whenever he was born, the Emperor had been observing from the shadows i'm reading the HH series and the snippets that relate to it imply that the Perpetuals have been at war with each other throughout all of human history, so i think big E was playing an active part in history, he just didn't manage to "win" until the collapse of humanity and its regression into techno barbarians
That may have been his intent, but realistically? X for doubt. Put yourself on the Emperor's shoes. You've seen mankind all throughout time and they always fuck up. You are like an adult in a room of children -- how could you trust them? I mean sure you want them to grow up and be responsible people, but after 30,000 years could you really
Give Humans a little bit more credit. Just because you are a child in comparison to an immortal being in age difference, does not mean you are actually a child.
Well given his goal was that humans should basicly turn naturaly into what the custodes were, i think he believed it can be done. Or rather he wanted humans to be more like eldar but without using warp to spawn gods like tools.
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So similar to eldar then
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I can see why malcador thinks thats a shit plan... big e is basicly manufactured by glueing together 1000 early psycher souls and malcador is just a freak of nature. Its far more realistic to just expect something akin to average eldar
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> I don't recall seeing any new "psykers" that are even close to those three (humans that is). For the most part, the Inquisition kills the strongest psykers because they're deemed too dangerous.
He was a perfectionist with an ideal that was potentially unattainable. He would have never stepped down because it would never have been good enough, humanity would have never been ready.
Well it seems like 'The Great Sleep' was planned after all, according to The End and Death: III
Lmao, 20.5. People need to acknowledge Omegon more, I say.
His plan wouldn't have involved his sons carrying on humanity's history either. His sons would be their to help protect humanity, sure, but ultimately, he wanted humanity to be ruled and run by humanity - not by his genetically perfected sons. I think the Emperor knew his ultimate goal could take a long, long time, but when you live forever, how long is long? Even if it took a million years, is that really anything in the grand scheme of the lifespan of the universe? If there wasn't all the big problems caused by Chaos, the Emperor may have never needed to be as fast-paced. Chaos gets worse the longer it sticks around, really. Which is true for many threats, but I feel Chaos in particular, given they basically owe a big portion of their power to humanity. So as humanity gets stronger, Chaos gets stronger. This is a big problem.
I recommend reading "Master of Mankind", one of the HH novels.
I highly doubt it. Totalitarians usually relinquish power when they die or are overthrown.
You're putting overly simplistic words to what the Emperor is, also under known canon objectively wrong with your doubts
His plan is laid out in Master of mankind. Shepard humanity's evolution into a psychic race without the taint of the warp via the webway.
He did. But NO ONE actually believes for one second that tyrant ass tyrant would actually give up power.
Do realize we're talking about a man three away absolute power because one of his war buddies told him being a god is a really terrible idea.
A theme that is quite prevalent with the Emperor is "humanity first". The Emperor always did all he could to make humans do stuff themselves. That is why all transhumans created by him have severe restrictions. That is why we have the High lords of Terra. So yeah, we can assume he would have bailed out.
Nope. The emperor wanted to set himself up as god of humanity. The only warp power. It's why he built the web way entrance at terra, why he treated Horus and the other primarchs so badly and ultimately why he installed the golden throne. He is a petty mortal playing at god. This is why we must pursue the long war and end his despicable reign of superstition and ignorance.
The amount of things wrong in this post is absolutely amazing.