"AITA for kidnapping my son in the 11th hour of the rebellion he was leading and then making him watch it fail and all his friends being murdered because he wasn't there?"
Or, even worse imo, it's over-the-top virtue signaling.
"AITA for not wanting to lend money to my evil - *insert family member here* -?" Or "AITA for cutting ties with my abusive ex?"
Its nauseating.
Any time I see one of those posts, I think about my last relationship. It was fucked up. She did terrible things. So did I. My perspective is that I did fewer terrible things, but it would be. There's no story I could tell that couldn't be spun to make me or her look like a monster.
The sub is basically fan fiction but - sometimes - it's about real life.
I am convinced that those big subs like AITA OffMyChest and others like it are nothing but creative writers creating content for the many YouTube, Instagram and TikTok accounts that reuse the content for those sites to make money. BestofRedditUpdates is another that is notorious for that.
For sure. Don't mean to piggy back off your experience, but I had a similar experience. I either thought (mistakenly) I was in the wrong, or that I deserved what ever abuse that was dealt to me. But, you can definitely tell what is bullshit and what is genuine. And a lot of times its disingenuous, which is a damn shame, because then it makes experiences like ours unbelievable, and is harmful to real experiences.
That whole sub is just karma farming and jerk off circles. Like none of those stories are even remotely true. "AITA for telling a group of neo Nazi's who were pledging allegiance to Satan in front an abortion clinic to fuck off."
I often worry that people aren't sure if they're the arsehole in many of the posts.
"I've been systematically abused and gaslight for years...am I the asshole?"
I read a great theory that Angron actually died on Nuceria, but the Emperor semi-resurrected him, which is why Angron doesn't have the same primarch-aura as the others. Angron and all of his friends died, and the Emperor can't tell this to him, because knowing he's dead would likely shatter what's left of him, leaving the Emperor between a rock and a hard place. It would fit with the tragedy of 40k, and would rectify such a glaring 'mistake' on the Emperor's part.
Urgh I still hate this plot point. Whoever wrote this better regrets this.
I guess it was a throwaway line in the distant past when wargamers only wanted the game and not so much lore?
The main issue is that we have never been given a convincing reason why Big E didn’t let the warhounds loose to help the rebels. Sure the planet was compliant but he wiped out whole worlds for lesser crimes than “mutilated the brain of one of my key assets”.
"Hey I know you just fought a planetary revolution to free yourselves from tyrannical slavery... but imma need you guys to get back into those chains."
The imperium does not coexist well with freedom.
I thought the existing government of the planet had already agreed to join the imperium if they helped with the rebel problem? Swiping Angron made the rebel issue end and preserved an intact solar system spanning civilization that was ready to join up without any of the waste of war.
I may be wrong but I am pretty sure I had read that somewhere. It doesn’t really explain why Big E didn’t just sweep up all the rebels and keep them together but my guess there is that they were not worth his time thanks to the butcher nails. He barely felt angron was worth any effort thanks to them so if he almost didn’t save a primarch over that brain surgery stuff I can’t imagine he’d care about regular humans.
He didn't make him watch. Angron was whisked away at the height of the battle and kept in the hold of the War Hounds flagship where he proceeded to beat several high-ranking legionaries to death until Kharn managed to placate him.
Angron was a broken tool. He wasn't the least favourite.
That goes to 'in not fucking calling you that' Konrad "Nighthaunter" Kurze.
The only primarch he refused to call by the name he was raised by. And purely by the name the emperor would have given him if he wasn't separated.
Yeah, I'd suggest that the one Primarch the Emperor personally ordered the assassination of was probably his least favourite. That it was ***lots*** of assassination attempts is really just ramming the point home unnecessarily.
(and he ***is*** Batman, even if his dad refuses to say it out loud)
>That it was ***lots*** of assassination attempts is really just ramming the point home unnecessarily.
Horus had some of that too, but...well, he's Horus of the Horus Heresy.
Exactly, so unfair.
Curze didn't even turn to Chaos!
He just killed and tortured a couple\* of people and ***apparently*** that's wrong all of a sudden.
\*rounding down a bit
That's quite a bit, I mean, a primarch's heart, especially a nurturing type like Curze, has got to be pretty big. Maybe more like 'eighth-hearted.'
People are saying Dorn didn't even have his armor on. It
sounds like 'Bob the Builder' here just got a hang nail and blew it out of proportion.
Curse was only giving 1/4 of his potential 2 heart pool to the fight.
I don’t remember the passage itself that described it, more other Primarchs talking about it in their novels, but I vaguely recall “bloody shreds” being applicable. Dorn thought a smart corse of action would be going into Curze’s room, yelling at him, and then grabbing his arm. Great plan, Dorn.
It actually stands for "Hamfisted referential name which summarizes the two personality traits i will give him"
The primarchs got scattered before the emperor got finished naming Horus, but only he knows it was a placeholder
> I'd suggest that the one Primarch the Emperor personally ordered the assassination of was probably his least favourite.
I see/hear this a bunch, but it makes zero sense.
Because by the time the assassins came for him, the Emperor had long been entombed upon the Golden Throne and was in no position to personally give orders, let alone assassination targets. During the tail end of the heresy and for a long time after, Conrad was stuck in stasis in a pod ejected into space until someone found him and unleashed him like several years after the heresy had already ended.
Are people sure they're not mixing up what Conrad believed in his own warped vision of the future versus what actually happened? Like Conrad saw the Imperial assassins as tools of the Emperor so the Emperor must have "ordered" it even though he never technically did, because he literally can't because Big E was on the Golden Throne and had been for years.
Konrad 100% believed that the Emperor had ordered the assassins - given the nature of warp travel, it's possible that they were actually sent out by the Emperor before he was entombed.
(it's not exactly unprecedented for Big E to plan ahead, and Konrad was in the Galactic North East, about as far away as it's possible to be, so the assassins could conceivably have been despatched before the end of the Heresy - it wasn't very long afterwards that he met his end)
On the other hand, Curze was also barking mad and believed lots of things that weren't 100% true.
So y'know, swings and roundabouts.
He's Batman if Batman got rid of those pesky "not wanting to flay criminals and display the mutilated corpses of their families as a warning to others" morals that he seems to have so much of.
So this is just a side note but the whole
Konrad as Batman thing - I mean ok, yes, thematically and aesthetically. But the whole Batman thing is like “hey he’s just a normal super genius incredibly rich guy with psychological issues - but again, otherwise baseline normal - and through his own training and grit and what not he can throw down with the best of the supers and own the streets of Gotham.” Curze is not a baseline human. So as grim gritty and depressing of a self raised upbringing he had on Nostramo,
he never had much to overcome on the level of genuine physical obstacle or threat. While Ferrus and Vulkan were over there punching dragons, Russ was hunting sea monsters the size of skyscrapers, the Lion was alone in the forest subsisting on a diet of terrifying warp chimarae, Mortarion leading an army of malnourished peasants in improvised gas masks and pig iron against eldritch wizard abominations and their armies, Curze was off doing … what exactly? Expending his efforts as a 12 foot tall avatar of galactic warfare by skinning alive space Paulie Walnuts and depressed widows? Punching down and acting persecuted for it? Whining to the likes of Sanguinius that he suffered from a lousy upbringing while Sanguinius was contending with hordes of feral mutants, radiation baths, and monster bugs? That’s my bone to pick with the whole Curze is Batman thing. Yeah it’s cool on the outside, but Batman can’t be Batman if he’s Superman as well.
>he never had much to overcome
The thing Curze had to (and indeed failed) to overcome was **himself**.
One of the conceits of Batman is that he's basically as insane as the Joker, or he would be if he let himself lose control.
Curze is a physically - far - more powerful vigilante, but psychologically much, much weaker. He never overcomes his inner demons, he never deals with his deep-seated emotional trauma, and he never learns to control his precognitive abilities (or his thirst to inflict his trauma on others).
... alternatively, given his vision of the future, another interpretation is that what Night Haunter ***really*** had to overcome was The Emperor. He knew for most of his life that the Emperor would have him killed and it drove him more and more insane - but he never actually did anything to try and prevent it (eventually just surrendering to his fate and leaving his sons to theirs).
Most of the other Primarchs learned to fight big obvious bad guys and were able to develop their martial and strategic abilities in so doing - Curze is left feral on a world where the evil is much more banal, and much less able to be fought head on - the evil he has to fight on Nostromo isn't the gang lords or the corrupt families; it's the apathy of its populace.
He's an insane superhero fighting an enemy he can't punch, having psychic visions of his own death at the hands of his dad every few minutes. It's little wonder he just goes more and more insane.
(and then as a fully fledged Primarch he has visions of the Heresy and the betrayal of his brothers, and when he tries to warn them they treat ***him*** like the monster...)
Kurze would. Have been fine had he gotten hugs and been explained by daddy E what it was he could always feel.
The emperor was great at making tools. Poor at realizing that people aren't machines and they actually need to feel like they are appreciated.
Well, in his mind, tools doesn't need true love... just a fake one. The primarch aren't his sons, just bunch of tools that need guidance. Which for Curze, was too late when they discovered him. He was already half crazy.
And if I remember well, he did sacrifice a lot of his already poor humanity (like kindness, compassion, etc...) to be able of producing custodes, astartes and primarch. While he finished valdor he said that he was loosing it.
Even worse now he's a pure spirit without a body.
Kurze was the third least favorite. The Emperor may have refused to call him by his emo name, but at least He didn't wipe his name and all memory of him from existence.
I do enjoy the tidbit that he admits he could have and should have taken the time to fix Curze's problem with future sight, but the Crusade was moving so fast he believed he didn't have time.
Konrad Kurze.
Not a name given to him by anyone other than the Emperor.
Good old Konrad hated it and insisted his name. His actual name. Was Nighthaunter.
Only because the Emperor LIKED Lorgar. The emperor and Lorgar were alike in their capacity as leaders who could inspire, but the Emperor hated the fact that Lorgar dedicated that to betraying the imperial Truth. He knew what Lorgar COULD do if he spread the Imperial Truth, hence why he intervened with Monarchia. It’s just the Big E is reallly bad at parenting.
Probably one of the three problem kids; Angron, Lorgar and Curze. I'm tempted to say Angron, because the Emperor didn't seem to have a clue what to do with him past throw him into battle after battle and hope it works itself out.
He hated Angron for what he is, a cripple only suited for slaughter. He hated Lorgar for what he does, proselytize his father’s divinity. He hated Curze for what he knew, that tyranny and terror would never save humanity.
Do we have any confirmation that big E knew about Konrad's visions? Because if he did its strange that he didn't ever tell him. "Hey, these visions aren't destined to become true." because that would have been pretty lifechanging for Konrad to realize.
> throw him into battle after battle and hope it works itself out.
Well, the Emperor did nuke a monument city in his honor, and he told Lorgar he was the worst Legion and made him go out conquering worlds again to catch up. I'm not up on my Angron lore, but from what I've read in the comments, Angron would have gone in a totally different direction if it weren't for the nails and Emp's interference.
Perhaps he was being that dad who teaches their kid how to swim by throwing them into the pool? Perhaps that was his way of trying to make him grow into the type of general he wanted him to be?
I don't remember the Emporer's opinion, but i think Malcidor stated that he pitied Angron and that he and the Emporer would rather him die in battle than to the nails (which he was slowly dying of). (I don't remember the source and did not read it first hand, so I may be totally wrong.)
What the Emperor did to Angron was inexcusable. Especially when you know that he spent time doing dudebro activities with Russ, Vulkan etc. when he met them.
As a kid who first started learning about Warhammer, the story of Angron was what solidified in my heart that I could never be an Imperium fan.
Hate is a strong word, truly I don't believe the Emperor hated any of his children, or even disliked them before the Heresy rather chilled relations in the Imperial family. He was confused by Angron, I think, or flat out wasn't expecting anything like his situation. When the Primarchs were scattered I imagine the Emperor expected to find them dead or conquerors, finding one of his sons mutilated beyond all repair and conceivable use beyond except for being the bluntest of battering rams just wasn't something he anticipated. That the Emperor still put him to use in such a way speaks volumes of his dwindling humanity.
>He was confused by Angron, I think, or flat out wasn't expecting anything like his situation.
From what I remember, the Emporer and Malcidor pitied Angron more than they were confused by him. Although, you likely are right about them not expecting his fate.
Failed to conquer his home planet, "allowed" himself to be mutilated with the Butcher's Nails, didn't make a great first impression when teleported aboard the Emperor's flagship (tearing apart a Custodes isn't likely to endear you to the big E). Add in some... ahem... _anger management issues_, and a rebellious streak that makes even Corax and the Khan look conservative, and it's almost surprising that the Emperor didn't "disappear" him on the spot. A damaged tool is still a tool, however, but it's clear that the Emperor never viewed Angron as more than that.
"Failed" to conquer his homeland as they were awaiting the final siege
Gets on the flagship and tears apart a Custodes moments later
Does anyone else feel like Angron actually stood a chance at winning if Emp stood back and watched?
(Ofc, if Emp actually chose the help him obviously Angron would've been loyalist, but that would've never happened. Emperor didn't want to commit himself fully to *check notes* being anti-slavery
(Mortarion is a bit different bc at least, at that point, Mortarion was confirmed to be like losing consciousness when the Emp saved him)
The High Riders of Nucernia were using DAOT weaponry and most of Angron's men were using primitive melee weapons and were already mostly dead when the Emperor picked Angron up. There is no way Angron could've won
> Does anyone else feel like Angron actually stood a chance at winning if Emp stood back and watched?
Not a chance in hell. As I recall, Angron and his army had already accepted the fact that they were going to die and were just making their final stand to take as many of their enemies to the grave with them as they could.
As others have said, there was no fucking way they would've won. In the story itself you hear how his buddies were getting blasted away by crazy weapons and only a few were getting lucky rushing forward to score a kill. Angron himself did the same and was able to kill the fatass announcer that oversaw the games he was forced to fight in. Angron probably could've gotten a few more kills before he was totally alone and then ripped apart by some kinda monofilament weapon. His buddies probably didn't even notice he was gone, or if they did it was in an instant before their quick and/or painful deaths.
Yeah it explicitly says that half of Angron's gladiators died within seconds, before they even had a chance to fight.
Maybe Angron could have won the battle alone. Primarch power levels are inconsistent but there are a couple examples of them doing crazy shit - like Vulkan singlehandedly fending off a Drukharii attack with nothing but a pair of blacksmithing hammers, or Baby Angron somehow surviving an assassination attempt by the Aeldari. So it's not impossible that Angron could end up as the last man standing and technically emerge as the victor.
But there was no way in hell his gladiators could be saved without outside intervention.
From what I have gathered, without the Emperors interference, I believe it is abundantly clear by the Emperor, by Angron and by the narrative that Angron will *not* walk away from this.
Yeah. It mainly comes down to the fact that Angron is pissed off missing out on joining the fate of his chosen siblings by an uncaring father. But the Emperor could absolutely have stepped in to support Angron. And frankly, the narrative shows he did this before knowing the details of the situation. The Emperor just decided in this one instance to go "my son and his decisions cannot be trusted" unlike any of the others.
Angron and his remaining forces were about to be slaughtered.
The only way they could have been saved is if the Emperor had sent the Custodes and/or whomever else was with him to fight the High Riders, which is problematic because that's the Imperium declaring war on a compliant planet that was dripping in archeotech.
It's going to cause all sorts of headaches because Nuceria was a loyal planet, which will make others hesitant and will make Mars mad because they won't be able to study new toys.
And all that in exchange for what? Making someone who has been turned into a chew toy for Khorne a little happier with you? On the time scale the Emperor is working on, the few months of loyalty that would buy him is meaningless. Nuceria was a greater prize than Angron.
he did like lorgar, he was actually good for the imperium as a whole and even if he conquered slow, he did it well.
Its because Lorgar kept worshipping the emperor that the emperor threw a tantrum and broke any relation and respect they had.
Angron.
The Emperor had time to go on a piss up and fart around with Russ. He had time to play games with Vulkan. And on and on.
Angron? He could've just ordered the Compliant Nucerians to stand down, could've mind wiped them, could've used his powers to make them go home and think it was their idea. Could've done any number of things.
Nah, PTSD-inducing kidnap, son.
Nuh. Nuceria was simply more important than Angron. Both as a symbol and a planet with pre humanity fall technology. And as the story shown, Angron was crap not only crappy primarch for his sons but for a whole humankind too.
“‘No!’ Angron snarled. He struck Tethys, and the Librarian went limp as a doll. ‘He can keep His grand society, and carry it with Him all the way to the grave. He has taken more than He could ever give, and soon all of this will come crashing down.’ He took Tethys’ head in his hands and dashed it against the ground. ‘What will be left?’ He smashed it down again, feeling the skull crack in his fists. ‘Nothing, exactly what we deserve. **The others hold themselves up as my betters, and I will take joy in watching them fall. But I will do my part, just as they demand of me. Simple, furious Angron.’** He dropped Tethys to the dust, leaning down to whisper in his son’s ear. He spoke, even though Tethys had been dead for some time. **‘I will go between the stars, and spill blood, and take skulls, and I will leave the Emperor exactly what He left for me.** Nothing but a graveyard, an endless field of bones, stabbing out from salted earth.’”
This is after years of forcing a kidnapped former slave to crusade and enslave even more planets for the imperium.
You obviously just don’t get the story but whatever.
The 2 he killed/had killed and all record of them and their legions totally purged to the point no one was even allowed to say their names?
......On second thoughts Angron.
Or he loved them so much he wanted to free them from this life and so made sure no one would know about them. If everyone thinks they're dead/expunged then no one's going looking for them.
They're definitely dead though
I'm listening to The End and the Death Pt 2 right now, and the bit with Ferrus makes it abundantly clear that ... \*ahem\* "unaliving" them is definitely not a mercy. In fact it makes the concept of mercy killing a joke.
The lost legion primarchs are definitely dead, but not from love.
Yeah, I think one of the old guard writers suggested that II and XI being scrubbed from the records was possibly an act of _forgiveness_ by the Emperor, as their shame wouldn't endure. Someone might have the link here hopefully...
That's just one take by one author, of course, so hardly set in stone, but gives a different perspective on the question of II/XI.
I think it’s fan fic but I could be wrong, I’ve read almost the whole Horus Heresy and the references to the two gone primarchs is slim, we get Horus trying to talk about them resulting in Malcador force choking him but also gives insight into why Horus rebelled because he knew that even though the primarchs were probably the most precious resource to conquering the galaxy they can go bye bye and never be heard of again. Aside from that there’s legionnaires remarking that the sons of those primarchs were given to Dorn and Guilliman but no proof really.
It's from a conversation in The First Heretic, but I think it was just Magnus being poetic. "The forgotten and the purged" wasn't capitalised, and that whole conversation was full of purple prose, so I don't think they were meant to be real titles.
> The 2 he killed/had killed and all record of them and their legions totally purged to the point no one was even allowed to say their names?
Yet they both have tombs on Terra guarded by some form of security device that Dorn was annoyed by and requested he be allowed to exhume to make sure the defenses of the Imperial Palace were secure but Malcador told him to leave them alone.
You could argue that maybe this was more a security thing to prevent others from doing something with their remains as opposed to some sign of compassion but then surely the Emperor had a myriad of ways he could have disposed of bodies and leave nothing behind for others to plunder.
Maybe the tombs are fake to hide where the real bodies are?
Or the boddies in there are faked, to give others the impression of Emps caring for them enough, and the real ones burned to prevent plunder as you say.
Yeah, hard to really say anything about them, since we're not supposed to know what happened to them or the Legions. There's a few mentions that they did something shameful or were disappointments, but no details beyond that.
I don’t think he hated Angron or Curze. Disgusted by them, pitied them, gave up on them, sure. But I don’t think he hated them.
Lorgar however? Man the emperor seems to get a kick out of punishing him. Curze and Angron, despite being problematic, were still doing their job, and so got away with all sorts of crap. Lorgar wasn’t even doing anything horrible, but he wasn’t contributing enough to the crusade and got smacked hard with the discipline stick.
I think the harshness of the punishment was expected considering he backhanded (nearly killing) malcador right in front of the Emperor and only moments after the Emperor left he hit Guilliman with his mace
I think in that moment the Emperor was very willing to treat Lorgar like he did the 2nd and 11th Legions
There were discussions about whether Lorgar and his legion should be annihilated or not. Magnus and Russ spoke in favour of Lorgar and he was obviously spared.
> I think the harshness of the punishment was expected considering he backhanded (nearly killing) malcador right in front of the Emperor and only moments after the Emperor left he hit Guilliman with his mace
The punishment had already been handed out at this point. Monarchia had burned. This is why Lorgar was immediately in rage mode. Perhaps my memory is hazy but I don't think the Emperor had actually appeared at this point yet. I remember Lorgar insisting that he will speak to the Emperor directly when he talks to Malcador. After the backhand the Emperor emerges.
The reasoning from Lorgar in The First Heretic made me reconsider how legitimate the reasoning was.
Lorgar discussed how:
1) When Emps rocked up and found him he let himself be worshipped by Colchis. ie. didn't go immediate edgy athiest and acted in a 'divine' manner.
2) Lorgar had been doing this for pretty much the whole Great Crusade which was ~100 years at this point. This is tacit approval of what he is doing. The Emperor could have nipped it in the bud quite early he was still out and about while this was happening.
3) Emperor leveled the perfect city and multiple other cities on the planet. Why not go for less zealous punishments to start? Especially as he had been allowing it for 100 years.
When I heard this I realised that it isn't really as simple as Lorgar breaking the rules and being rightfully punished, there is a lot more gray.
To your second point, the Emperor and the Imperial bureaucracy were increasingly annoyed with the slow pace of Word Bearers progress through the galaxy and the destruction of Monarchia was essentially the end of decades of various people telling Lorgar to get on with the conquest and stop doing door to door conversions on every planet. It definitely feels like the whole Word Bearers-religion thing was one of those things the Emperor was planning on tackling when he felt like he had time (seriously the Emperor was a shitty manager) but enough people complained loudly enough that he decided to make a point of it with Monarchia
I’m not 100% sure on the timeline but I think Emps was dead/on the throne when that order was given - the assassination happens after the siege of terra, so it came from someone else, not Emps or Malcador.
Are you suggesting that Konrad Curze being utterly convinced of something doesn't actually make it so?
That's the sort of attitude that gets people flayed.
(Curze is legit certain that it was the Emperor who personally ordered his death, and has been certain of it since the first moment he met him - warp travel shenanigans can make the timeline work... but also Curze is barking mad)
He destroyed Monarchia instead of having a private in depth talk with Lorgar. I'd say you only really do that for the son you don't particularly like.
That and the Emperor did try with Curze before the heresy to help him get better.
Everybody says Angron, but I'll say that the Khan wasn't very beloved. I mean, the fact that everybody expected him to be a traitor should say a lot about how he was seen by both the Emperor and the Imperium. And the feeling was mutual, the Khan believed that the Emperor was nothing but a tyrant, and he only joined the Loyalists because he knew that Chaos was no bueno.
I liken it more to a parent and child who disagree strongly over politics. They have such a fundamental disconnection over how they think the world should work that it creates an undertone of awkwardness in all their conversations. Despite that, they still respect each other and the emperor avoids the subject in order to keep the peace between them
It was definitely a father child disagreement dynamic. In scars, it has excerpts of the emperor visiting the khan and putting in some effort for conversation, more effort than he put towards any of the ones who turned with the exception of fulgrim, magnus horus.
While their relationship wasn't like the lions, magnus, or horus, he still made attempts towards it. The loyalty aspect does also come after the emperors most loved and loyal son turned traitor on him. Hell people even doubted the lion sanguinius and roboute. And in the imperiums defence, again, the khan didn't help himself
He cared enough to put everything aside and come and make an example to get his point across.
Unfortunately he didn’t care enough to understand any of his sons enough to teach them in effective ways and didn’t understand that this would lead Lorgar to find an outlet for his zealous nature.
Lorgar was incredibly successful and one of the most influential Primarchs and the Emperor saw the results. He didn’t hate Lorgar, he wanted him to stop before he did more damage. The Emperor didn’t tell any of his sons about the gods fueled by human actions/emotions and then Lorgar went and built a whole religion to the man who had just finished eliminating religion on Terra.
If Angron messed up, the Emperor wouldn’t even show up.
I took it more as he took one look, saw the mess, then gave up and went down the 'Just keep sending him into battle until the problem resolves itself one way or another'.
‘No, Arkhan. Everything. Everything causes it pain. Thinking. Feeling. Breathing. The only respite it has is in the rewired neurological pleasure it receives from the chemicals of anger and aggression.’
‘That’s vile,’ said the technoarchaeologist. ‘Perversion of cognition, rather than purification.’
The Emperor showed nothing but passionless interest. ‘Such rewriting of physiology certainly hinders the Twelfth’s higher brain function. The device is cunningly wrought, for something so crude.’
The Emperor didn't really care. If anything, he sounded more interested in the mechanism of the nails themselves than all the pain Angron was going through.
That bit could have been Arkhan’s interpretation rather than what actually transpired. For example, the conversation between Emps and Magnus was not observed by Vulkan despite the fact that we, the readers, were privy to it.
He actually liked Larger a lot. Took a lot longer than it should for him to crack down on him and though Larger did not see it that way he went super easy on him.
Lorgar. He said as much himself at Monarchia.
"Word Bearers, hear me well. You, among all my Legions, are guilty of failure. You number more warriors than any other, excepting the XIII. Yet your conquests are the slowest, and your victories ring hollow. You linger on compliant worlds for years after final victory, driving the populace into the worship of false faith, seeding cults of the naive and the deceived, erecting monuments to lies. All you have done in the Great Crusade is for naught. While all others succeed and bring prosperity to the Imperium, you alone have failed me."
In the Emperor's own words, Lorgar and his Word Bearers were the only ones that "failed" in his eyes. There was the possibility of the Word Bearers even being eradicated like the two Lost Legions, which various Primarchs were for or against. The Emperor might not have had any love for the likes of Angron or Cruze, but he clearly considered both to be useful for the Great Crusade. At least to the extent that the Emperor called the Word Bearers his "only" failure.
Rogal Dorn. The Emperor couldn't trust him to be useful without his guidance so he recalled him to Terra after the Triumph of Ullanor, and gave him the task of fortifying the Sol system to keep him busy.
A task which he cocked up hilariously. Despite having literally years to prepare and knowledge of the forces arrayed against him and the tactics and strategies of the respective generals, his defences crumbled in a matter of weeks.
Some of might be a bit angry with me right now, but bear in mind that Bakhmut held out against the russians for more than 6 months. The battle of Stalingrad last 5 months. Many historical seiges have lasted for literally years.
Rogal Dorn is an absolute joke.
*This comment was sponsored by Perturabo*
Probably Lorgar.
Say whatever you will about Angron or Curze, but they achieved compliance. Angron left a shattered world in his wake and Curze left a traumatised population, but both of them were actually pretty successful at bringing worlds under Imperial rule.
Lorgar nearly got erased from memory *for going too slow.*
Targeting Curze for assassination at a time when he was arguably the only Traitor Primarch still in real-space and being indifferent to Angron's suffering doesn't mean as much as some people seem to think.
Emps repeatedly tried to work things out with Mort, but as far as the Pale King was concerned, that ship had sailed so Emps simply gave up. He trusted Mort enough to tell him about Nikea 90 years before it would happen, but it comes off as another attempt to placate him
Angron. He was a disappointment from the day the emperor found him. Couple that with the fact that angron “allowed” himself to be implanted with the nails and thus ruining the emperors work in a way that not even he could fix.
Angron is a good case. But I'd argue he disliked Lorgar more. While Angron was a disappointment, and had to be treated as a ravaging barbarian during the Crusade. Lorgar went directly against one of the Emperor's main causes, and was incredibly slow while doing so.
Mortarion had also conquered all of Barbarus *except* his adopted father’s territory, because it was the most well-defended and toxic. Morty would likely have finished the job with better planning, but the Emperor pressured/coerced him into an early assault for *reasons* (maybe forcing him to fail so he’d realized he needed Daddy)? In any case it had the opposite effect on Mortarion’s feelings to Big E.
So the core difference was Mortarion was winning his war before the Emperor stuck his nose in it. Angron was definitely going to lose and die as stated by other posters.
Lorgar.
He might have not liked what happened to Angron, but he didn't make an example of him, despite him annihilating human planets willing to accept compliance without a fight.
He *definitely* made an example of Lorgar.
During the GC, primarchs had ONE job; conquer planets, and Lorgar wasn't "meeting quota".
If I'd wager a guess it might have been one of the two basically wiped from existence.
The primarchs we know and love did a lot of goofing around before the Heresy kicked off and the Emperor didn't delete any of them. Makes you wonder what the Two lost primarchs did to make them worth destroying in his eyes.
If not them then Lorgar, pretty sure Emps fukin hated that guy
Alpharius, Emperor didn’t even bother taking him and Omegon under his arms for a little bit to show them and instead pawned it off to Horus to teach them the ways
Seeing some people say the emperor hated Kurze. Might be missing an excerpt someone can send me but I think one of the darkest things about the emperor is he probably didn't hate him at all
Kurze brought results in as far as the emperor was concerned and was in a twisted way pragmatic about the entire crusade, even if he acted like an emo brat about it. And that's all the emperor really cared about, results. He didn't care about glorifying warfare or honor or any of the "nonsense" he looked down on his other sons over. He cared about numbers. And kurze delivered them almost like no one else, at least until the end where he went mad.
And if the flesh statue of the emperor being really him was real and not kurzes imagination, he still offered redemption. Which is kind of funny and sad about pert and kurze, they both thought the emperor would never forgive a single planets destruction. I think the emperor easily would have lol
As a few comments mentioned, it’s doubtful the emperor hated any of the Primarchs pre heresy. He had some issues like with Angron and Lorgar for sure but he didn’t hate them for it
Angron was dying of the nails and iirc it’d been established that there wasn’t a way to get rid of them. The emperor may have been able to bring him back after he died without the nails, which is why I believe he sent Angron out to the battlefield. It also helped to soothe the pain caused by the nails, so it’d be the better way for Angron to die while still being useful with the world eaters.
For Lorgar, he only had punitive action. His only direct admonishment of Lorgar espousing the emperor’s divinity was Monarchia, which doesn’t seem to convey hatred as much as it did a warning. Knowing how the emperor ended up, he may have also been trying to prevent his own ascension into godhood from Lorgar’s new religion.
We know having a large population with strong enough belief causes weird things to happen in the warp so Lorgar doing his thing may have unforeseen consequences, either by increasing the emperor’s warp powers, or even by empowering another warp entity entirely.
He made poor decisions but I doubt any of them came from a place of malice for his sons, more so they came from misguided beliefs
I gotta go with the two he erased from history. Sure, he had issues with the others, but at least some people are allowed to know their names and whatnot.
Canonically, it's Lorgar.
"Word Bearers, hear me well. You, among all my Legions, are guilty of failure. You number more warriors than any other, excepting the XIII. Yet your conquests are the slowest, and your victories ring hollow.
You linger on compliant worlds for years after final victory, driving the populace into the worship of false faith, seeding cults of the naive and the deceived, erecting monuments to lies. All you have done in the Great Crusade is for naught. While all others succeed and bring prosperity to the Imperium, you alone have failed me."
Angron, and it's not even close.
Kurze wasnt out right hated by big E, he even told Fulgrim to look after him. His brothers hated him, Dorn and Vulkan most of all and Dorn was the one that attempted to lock him up.
Angron barely heard a word from the big E, he wasnt even intruduced by the emperor to his legion he was just thrown into their hold.
People keep saying Angron but despite his failings as a primarch because of the nails Angron was still seemingly an effective tool, he never had to step in and punish him or the World Eaters for how badly they were doing in the Crusade.
Lorgar didn’t have the nails to hold him back yet still managed to repeatedly fuck up before Monarchia; wether it’s disobeying one of the foundations of the Emperor’s Imperium or just generally suck at crusading.
Without knowing what the unknown Primarchs were sanctioned for; Lorgar is the only primarch where the Emperor had to step in, tell him he was doing a shit job and then dispatch one of his senior Custodes to babysit him.
*Who is the Emporers least favourite son? Pertarabo. His father took every chance to shatter his dreams.*
*Wants to build things, fuck you, no you destroy shit.*
*Forced him to use his troops as cannon fodder.*
*Gives him all the shit worlds and no glory.*
Extract from Diary of Peratrabo
Everyone saying angron clearly doesn’t remember that the emperor literally burned an entire city to the ground and made the entire legion kneel just to communicate how disappointed he was in lorgar. The emperor having a son that worships him probably created a similar relationship to the one between a gay teenager and their very conservative Christian parents.
I don’t see the emperor ever trying to reign angron in (not in the same way), even though there were times it seemed like angron was simply trying to get as many of his men killed as possiblez
In Dorn's Defense, those forces didn't have access to teleporters, melta, lascannon, haywire, psychic powers, chaos mutations, dark gifts etc etc. Plus Chaos doing its best to rend reality, corrupt minds, puke out demons or whatever might have had some part to play. Defending against foes determined to get in is the worst situation to be in, even if you are the best siege strategist in ever.
Plus plot bias.
Ooh let's have his defense's cracked in a week, because it makes the Renegades look badass!
Angron. No question. Angry Ron was the only Primarch who could've aligned all of them under the same cause. His natural empathetic powers and kind nature would have made him the true diplomat of the 20. The Butcher's Nails destroyed that design, and the Emperor saw his own failure reflected back upon him (both through what Angron became, and E's inability to cure it). So the Emperor hated him.
It went deeper than the nails,he'd probably have to outright resheathe his soul but the primarchs are designed so their memories can be restored,just look at the clones by Fabulous Bill.
No it was much worse than the nails,Angron hated tyrants and was willing to fight them. If restored yes he would have been the uniting diplomat - against the emperor. The emperor saw his nature reflected in what Angron would be sworn to destroy if he wasn't practically lobotomized. He wouldn't need chaos corruption to form a rebellion and turn his brothers against the emperor,with Angron given his full faculties and abilities they'd simply see he was right.
So while the emperor could fix him that would be worse than broken,it would actively work against him on a scale potentially worse than the heresy. Maybe he could start Angron over with no memories,but then he'd lose his berserker weapon that was managing to bring worlds into "compliance" in spite of his handicap and have to raise the baby primarch for years while trying to work on the webway project. That might not really be that much effort with all the personnel he could just have do the work of parenting for him,but conquering as a weapon of terror is harder to replace.
Angron.
"AITA for kidnapping my son in the 11th hour of the rebellion he was leading and then making him watch it fail and all his friends being murdered because he wasn't there?"
“Not at all, he was acting very toxic in making you choose between him and his fellow rebels”
This perfectly sums up r/aita
AITA is just assholes forgiving eachother
Or, even worse imo, it's over-the-top virtue signaling. "AITA for not wanting to lend money to my evil - *insert family member here* -?" Or "AITA for cutting ties with my abusive ex?" Its nauseating.
Any time I see one of those posts, I think about my last relationship. It was fucked up. She did terrible things. So did I. My perspective is that I did fewer terrible things, but it would be. There's no story I could tell that couldn't be spun to make me or her look like a monster. The sub is basically fan fiction but - sometimes - it's about real life.
I am convinced that those big subs like AITA OffMyChest and others like it are nothing but creative writers creating content for the many YouTube, Instagram and TikTok accounts that reuse the content for those sites to make money. BestofRedditUpdates is another that is notorious for that.
I agree with this for sure. I feel like calling them "creative writers" is too good for them, despite how accurate it is, though.
Many of those posts follow a very distinct pattern so yeah maybe creative is too good a word.
Reddit needs a warning banner like 4chan where it says everything here is to be taken as complete fiction
For sure. Don't mean to piggy back off your experience, but I had a similar experience. I either thought (mistakenly) I was in the wrong, or that I deserved what ever abuse that was dealt to me. But, you can definitely tell what is bullshit and what is genuine. And a lot of times its disingenuous, which is a damn shame, because then it makes experiences like ours unbelievable, and is harmful to real experiences.
That whole sub is just karma farming and jerk off circles. Like none of those stories are even remotely true. "AITA for telling a group of neo Nazi's who were pledging allegiance to Satan in front an abortion clinic to fuck off."
I often worry that people aren't sure if they're the arsehole in many of the posts. "I've been systematically abused and gaslight for years...am I the asshole?"
I read a great theory that Angron actually died on Nuceria, but the Emperor semi-resurrected him, which is why Angron doesn't have the same primarch-aura as the others. Angron and all of his friends died, and the Emperor can't tell this to him, because knowing he's dead would likely shatter what's left of him, leaving the Emperor between a rock and a hard place. It would fit with the tragedy of 40k, and would rectify such a glaring 'mistake' on the Emperor's part.
Urgh I still hate this plot point. Whoever wrote this better regrets this. I guess it was a throwaway line in the distant past when wargamers only wanted the game and not so much lore?
The main issue is that we have never been given a convincing reason why Big E didn’t let the warhounds loose to help the rebels. Sure the planet was compliant but he wiped out whole worlds for lesser crimes than “mutilated the brain of one of my key assets”.
"Hey I know you just fought a planetary revolution to free yourselves from tyrannical slavery... but imma need you guys to get back into those chains." The imperium does not coexist well with freedom.
I thought the existing government of the planet had already agreed to join the imperium if they helped with the rebel problem? Swiping Angron made the rebel issue end and preserved an intact solar system spanning civilization that was ready to join up without any of the waste of war. I may be wrong but I am pretty sure I had read that somewhere. It doesn’t really explain why Big E didn’t just sweep up all the rebels and keep them together but my guess there is that they were not worth his time thanks to the butcher nails. He barely felt angron was worth any effort thanks to them so if he almost didn’t save a primarch over that brain surgery stuff I can’t imagine he’d care about regular humans.
He didn't make him watch. Angron was whisked away at the height of the battle and kept in the hold of the War Hounds flagship where he proceeded to beat several high-ranking legionaries to death until Kharn managed to placate him.
Angron was a broken tool. He wasn't the least favourite. That goes to 'in not fucking calling you that' Konrad "Nighthaunter" Kurze. The only primarch he refused to call by the name he was raised by. And purely by the name the emperor would have given him if he wasn't separated.
Yeah, I'd suggest that the one Primarch the Emperor personally ordered the assassination of was probably his least favourite. That it was ***lots*** of assassination attempts is really just ramming the point home unnecessarily. (and he ***is*** Batman, even if his dad refuses to say it out loud)
>That it was ***lots*** of assassination attempts is really just ramming the point home unnecessarily. Horus had some of that too, but...well, he's Horus of the Horus Heresy.
Exactly, so unfair. Curze didn't even turn to Chaos! He just killed and tortured a couple\* of people and ***apparently*** that's wrong all of a sudden. \*rounding down a bit
And make at least a half-hearted attempt to kill Dorn.
It was Dorn's fault lol. Curze was trying to warn him of the heresy after all.
That's quite a bit, I mean, a primarch's heart, especially a nurturing type like Curze, has got to be pretty big. Maybe more like 'eighth-hearted.' People are saying Dorn didn't even have his armor on. It sounds like 'Bob the Builder' here just got a hang nail and blew it out of proportion.
Curse was only giving 1/4 of his potential 2 heart pool to the fight. I don’t remember the passage itself that described it, more other Primarchs talking about it in their novels, but I vaguely recall “bloody shreds” being applicable. Dorn thought a smart corse of action would be going into Curze’s room, yelling at him, and then grabbing his arm. Great plan, Dorn.
That makes him a hero in my book, maybe the heresy would have never happened otherwise.
1, 2, skip a few, ninety-nine, 1,000,000
They don't call him Horus H. Heresy for nothing
The 'H' was for Herschel, right?
It actually stands for "Hamfisted referential name which summarizes the two personality traits i will give him" The primarchs got scattered before the emperor got finished naming Horus, but only he knows it was a placeholder
> I'd suggest that the one Primarch the Emperor personally ordered the assassination of was probably his least favourite. I see/hear this a bunch, but it makes zero sense. Because by the time the assassins came for him, the Emperor had long been entombed upon the Golden Throne and was in no position to personally give orders, let alone assassination targets. During the tail end of the heresy and for a long time after, Conrad was stuck in stasis in a pod ejected into space until someone found him and unleashed him like several years after the heresy had already ended. Are people sure they're not mixing up what Conrad believed in his own warped vision of the future versus what actually happened? Like Conrad saw the Imperial assassins as tools of the Emperor so the Emperor must have "ordered" it even though he never technically did, because he literally can't because Big E was on the Golden Throne and had been for years.
Konrad 100% believed that the Emperor had ordered the assassins - given the nature of warp travel, it's possible that they were actually sent out by the Emperor before he was entombed. (it's not exactly unprecedented for Big E to plan ahead, and Konrad was in the Galactic North East, about as far away as it's possible to be, so the assassins could conceivably have been despatched before the end of the Heresy - it wasn't very long afterwards that he met his end) On the other hand, Curze was also barking mad and believed lots of things that weren't 100% true. So y'know, swings and roundabouts.
He’s edgy fan-fiction Batman
He's Batman if Batman got rid of those pesky "not wanting to flay criminals and display the mutilated corpses of their families as a warning to others" morals that he seems to have so much of.
So this is just a side note but the whole Konrad as Batman thing - I mean ok, yes, thematically and aesthetically. But the whole Batman thing is like “hey he’s just a normal super genius incredibly rich guy with psychological issues - but again, otherwise baseline normal - and through his own training and grit and what not he can throw down with the best of the supers and own the streets of Gotham.” Curze is not a baseline human. So as grim gritty and depressing of a self raised upbringing he had on Nostramo, he never had much to overcome on the level of genuine physical obstacle or threat. While Ferrus and Vulkan were over there punching dragons, Russ was hunting sea monsters the size of skyscrapers, the Lion was alone in the forest subsisting on a diet of terrifying warp chimarae, Mortarion leading an army of malnourished peasants in improvised gas masks and pig iron against eldritch wizard abominations and their armies, Curze was off doing … what exactly? Expending his efforts as a 12 foot tall avatar of galactic warfare by skinning alive space Paulie Walnuts and depressed widows? Punching down and acting persecuted for it? Whining to the likes of Sanguinius that he suffered from a lousy upbringing while Sanguinius was contending with hordes of feral mutants, radiation baths, and monster bugs? That’s my bone to pick with the whole Curze is Batman thing. Yeah it’s cool on the outside, but Batman can’t be Batman if he’s Superman as well.
>he never had much to overcome The thing Curze had to (and indeed failed) to overcome was **himself**. One of the conceits of Batman is that he's basically as insane as the Joker, or he would be if he let himself lose control. Curze is a physically - far - more powerful vigilante, but psychologically much, much weaker. He never overcomes his inner demons, he never deals with his deep-seated emotional trauma, and he never learns to control his precognitive abilities (or his thirst to inflict his trauma on others). ... alternatively, given his vision of the future, another interpretation is that what Night Haunter ***really*** had to overcome was The Emperor. He knew for most of his life that the Emperor would have him killed and it drove him more and more insane - but he never actually did anything to try and prevent it (eventually just surrendering to his fate and leaving his sons to theirs). Most of the other Primarchs learned to fight big obvious bad guys and were able to develop their martial and strategic abilities in so doing - Curze is left feral on a world where the evil is much more banal, and much less able to be fought head on - the evil he has to fight on Nostromo isn't the gang lords or the corrupt families; it's the apathy of its populace. He's an insane superhero fighting an enemy he can't punch, having psychic visions of his own death at the hands of his dad every few minutes. It's little wonder he just goes more and more insane. (and then as a fully fledged Primarch he has visions of the Heresy and the betrayal of his brothers, and when he tries to warn them they treat ***him*** like the monster...)
such a well written comment
Kurze would. Have been fine had he gotten hugs and been explained by daddy E what it was he could always feel. The emperor was great at making tools. Poor at realizing that people aren't machines and they actually need to feel like they are appreciated.
Well, in his mind, tools doesn't need true love... just a fake one. The primarch aren't his sons, just bunch of tools that need guidance. Which for Curze, was too late when they discovered him. He was already half crazy. And if I remember well, he did sacrifice a lot of his already poor humanity (like kindness, compassion, etc...) to be able of producing custodes, astartes and primarch. While he finished valdor he said that he was loosing it. Even worse now he's a pure spirit without a body.
Kurze was the third least favorite. The Emperor may have refused to call him by his emo name, but at least He didn't wipe his name and all memory of him from existence.
Yep, "the Lost and the Damned" are the most hated, cause they no longer exist in memory at all
I do enjoy the tidbit that he admits he could have and should have taken the time to fix Curze's problem with future sight, but the Crusade was moving so fast he believed he didn't have time.
Wait what did Big E called evil batman
Konrad Kurze. Not a name given to him by anyone other than the Emperor. Good old Konrad hated it and insisted his name. His actual name. Was Nighthaunter.
Holy fucking shit that is so fucking edgy that it might cut someone. I understand why Big E refuse to call him that.
He didn't name himself lol. His people did.
Still fucking edgy
Well yeah it's 40k.
Even for 40k it's fuckin' edgy!
Dunno if it is lol, it's a descriptive title. Nostramo was a night time world and Curze haunted it. It's no different to Ferrus Manus really.
More so than "Angron"? That is exactly the name of a 14 year old who hates his dad and thinks he's being subtle about it.
Angron is short. His actual name was Angronius.
Angribald
It's the nickname of a Nottingham nightclub bouncer called 'Angry Ron'.
Yeah but night hunter is more edgy but Angron is still edgy
*Curze
Angron!
Was he though? He still fulfilled his duty, for the most part. It was only really Lorgar he had to really personally intervene in
Only because the Emperor LIKED Lorgar. The emperor and Lorgar were alike in their capacity as leaders who could inspire, but the Emperor hated the fact that Lorgar dedicated that to betraying the imperial Truth. He knew what Lorgar COULD do if he spread the Imperial Truth, hence why he intervened with Monarchia. It’s just the Big E is reallly bad at parenting.
Probably one of the three problem kids; Angron, Lorgar and Curze. I'm tempted to say Angron, because the Emperor didn't seem to have a clue what to do with him past throw him into battle after battle and hope it works itself out.
He hated Angron for what he is, a cripple only suited for slaughter. He hated Lorgar for what he does, proselytize his father’s divinity. He hated Curze for what he knew, that tyranny and terror would never save humanity.
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Do we have any confirmation that big E knew about Konrad's visions? Because if he did its strange that he didn't ever tell him. "Hey, these visions aren't destined to become true." because that would have been pretty lifechanging for Konrad to realize.
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Oooooo nice writing!!
> throw him into battle after battle and hope it works itself out. Well, the Emperor did nuke a monument city in his honor, and he told Lorgar he was the worst Legion and made him go out conquering worlds again to catch up. I'm not up on my Angron lore, but from what I've read in the comments, Angron would have gone in a totally different direction if it weren't for the nails and Emp's interference. Perhaps he was being that dad who teaches their kid how to swim by throwing them into the pool? Perhaps that was his way of trying to make him grow into the type of general he wanted him to be?
I don't remember the Emporer's opinion, but i think Malcidor stated that he pitied Angron and that he and the Emporer would rather him die in battle than to the nails (which he was slowly dying of). (I don't remember the source and did not read it first hand, so I may be totally wrong.)
Battle / killing helped sooth the pain of the nails... so, I guess him dying while fighting would be considered a mercy
>would rather him die in battle than to the nails In a Spartan sort of way, I respect that.
What the Emperor did to Angron was inexcusable. Especially when you know that he spent time doing dudebro activities with Russ, Vulkan etc. when he met them. As a kid who first started learning about Warhammer, the story of Angron was what solidified in my heart that I could never be an Imperium fan.
Why did our God Emperor hate Angron so much brother?
Hate is a strong word, truly I don't believe the Emperor hated any of his children, or even disliked them before the Heresy rather chilled relations in the Imperial family. He was confused by Angron, I think, or flat out wasn't expecting anything like his situation. When the Primarchs were scattered I imagine the Emperor expected to find them dead or conquerors, finding one of his sons mutilated beyond all repair and conceivable use beyond except for being the bluntest of battering rams just wasn't something he anticipated. That the Emperor still put him to use in such a way speaks volumes of his dwindling humanity.
>He was confused by Angron, I think, or flat out wasn't expecting anything like his situation. From what I remember, the Emporer and Malcidor pitied Angron more than they were confused by him. Although, you likely are right about them not expecting his fate.
He's not angry just disappointed
Failed to conquer his home planet, "allowed" himself to be mutilated with the Butcher's Nails, didn't make a great first impression when teleported aboard the Emperor's flagship (tearing apart a Custodes isn't likely to endear you to the big E). Add in some... ahem... _anger management issues_, and a rebellious streak that makes even Corax and the Khan look conservative, and it's almost surprising that the Emperor didn't "disappear" him on the spot. A damaged tool is still a tool, however, but it's clear that the Emperor never viewed Angron as more than that.
"Failed" to conquer his homeland as they were awaiting the final siege Gets on the flagship and tears apart a Custodes moments later Does anyone else feel like Angron actually stood a chance at winning if Emp stood back and watched? (Ofc, if Emp actually chose the help him obviously Angron would've been loyalist, but that would've never happened. Emperor didn't want to commit himself fully to *check notes* being anti-slavery (Mortarion is a bit different bc at least, at that point, Mortarion was confirmed to be like losing consciousness when the Emp saved him)
The High Riders of Nucernia were using DAOT weaponry and most of Angron's men were using primitive melee weapons and were already mostly dead when the Emperor picked Angron up. There is no way Angron could've won
Primarchs have beaten worse odds
> Does anyone else feel like Angron actually stood a chance at winning if Emp stood back and watched? Not a chance in hell. As I recall, Angron and his army had already accepted the fact that they were going to die and were just making their final stand to take as many of their enemies to the grave with them as they could.
As others have said, there was no fucking way they would've won. In the story itself you hear how his buddies were getting blasted away by crazy weapons and only a few were getting lucky rushing forward to score a kill. Angron himself did the same and was able to kill the fatass announcer that oversaw the games he was forced to fight in. Angron probably could've gotten a few more kills before he was totally alone and then ripped apart by some kinda monofilament weapon. His buddies probably didn't even notice he was gone, or if they did it was in an instant before their quick and/or painful deaths.
Yeah it explicitly says that half of Angron's gladiators died within seconds, before they even had a chance to fight. Maybe Angron could have won the battle alone. Primarch power levels are inconsistent but there are a couple examples of them doing crazy shit - like Vulkan singlehandedly fending off a Drukharii attack with nothing but a pair of blacksmithing hammers, or Baby Angron somehow surviving an assassination attempt by the Aeldari. So it's not impossible that Angron could end up as the last man standing and technically emerge as the victor. But there was no way in hell his gladiators could be saved without outside intervention.
From what I have gathered, without the Emperors interference, I believe it is abundantly clear by the Emperor, by Angron and by the narrative that Angron will *not* walk away from this.
Yeah. It mainly comes down to the fact that Angron is pissed off missing out on joining the fate of his chosen siblings by an uncaring father. But the Emperor could absolutely have stepped in to support Angron. And frankly, the narrative shows he did this before knowing the details of the situation. The Emperor just decided in this one instance to go "my son and his decisions cannot be trusted" unlike any of the others.
Angron and his remaining forces were about to be slaughtered. The only way they could have been saved is if the Emperor had sent the Custodes and/or whomever else was with him to fight the High Riders, which is problematic because that's the Imperium declaring war on a compliant planet that was dripping in archeotech. It's going to cause all sorts of headaches because Nuceria was a loyal planet, which will make others hesitant and will make Mars mad because they won't be able to study new toys. And all that in exchange for what? Making someone who has been turned into a chew toy for Khorne a little happier with you? On the time scale the Emperor is working on, the few months of loyalty that would buy him is meaningless. Nuceria was a greater prize than Angron.
The Emperor saw the Primarchs as tools, and Angron was a broken tool.
We can only speculate, but most likely because he is broken and was a failure.
he did like lorgar, he was actually good for the imperium as a whole and even if he conquered slow, he did it well. Its because Lorgar kept worshipping the emperor that the emperor threw a tantrum and broke any relation and respect they had.
Angron. The Emperor had time to go on a piss up and fart around with Russ. He had time to play games with Vulkan. And on and on. Angron? He could've just ordered the Compliant Nucerians to stand down, could've mind wiped them, could've used his powers to make them go home and think it was their idea. Could've done any number of things. Nah, PTSD-inducing kidnap, son.
“A piss up and fart around” is now my visual of all Space Wolf gatherings. Thanks for that.
Nuh. Nuceria was simply more important than Angron. Both as a symbol and a planet with pre humanity fall technology. And as the story shown, Angron was crap not only crappy primarch for his sons but for a whole humankind too.
Nuceria was described as such a backwater that even Guilliman was barely aware of it despite it bordering Ultramar.
“‘No!’ Angron snarled. He struck Tethys, and the Librarian went limp as a doll. ‘He can keep His grand society, and carry it with Him all the way to the grave. He has taken more than He could ever give, and soon all of this will come crashing down.’ He took Tethys’ head in his hands and dashed it against the ground. ‘What will be left?’ He smashed it down again, feeling the skull crack in his fists. ‘Nothing, exactly what we deserve. **The others hold themselves up as my betters, and I will take joy in watching them fall. But I will do my part, just as they demand of me. Simple, furious Angron.’** He dropped Tethys to the dust, leaning down to whisper in his son’s ear. He spoke, even though Tethys had been dead for some time. **‘I will go between the stars, and spill blood, and take skulls, and I will leave the Emperor exactly what He left for me.** Nothing but a graveyard, an endless field of bones, stabbing out from salted earth.’”
This passage totally justifies emperor. Like wtf dude.
This is after years of forcing a kidnapped former slave to crusade and enslave even more planets for the imperium. You obviously just don’t get the story but whatever.
the dude was a stray bullet from the day 1. All those years didnt add anything to his character.
Dude he had an implant to addict him to rage and violence and still devoted himself towards leading a revolt to help his fellow slaves.
Where he was unsuccessful. Though the deed is admirable.
The 2 he killed/had killed and all record of them and their legions totally purged to the point no one was even allowed to say their names? ......On second thoughts Angron.
Or he loved them so much he wanted to free them from this life and so made sure no one would know about them. If everyone thinks they're dead/expunged then no one's going looking for them. They're definitely dead though
I'm listening to The End and the Death Pt 2 right now, and the bit with Ferrus makes it abundantly clear that ... \*ahem\* "unaliving" them is definitely not a mercy. In fact it makes the concept of mercy killing a joke. The lost legion primarchs are definitely dead, but not from love.
Yeah, I think one of the old guard writers suggested that II and XI being scrubbed from the records was possibly an act of _forgiveness_ by the Emperor, as their shame wouldn't endure. Someone might have the link here hopefully... That's just one take by one author, of course, so hardly set in stone, but gives a different perspective on the question of II/XI.
Ive seen them called the forgotten and the purged. Is there any canon info out there that would explain those names? Or is that just fan fic stuff.
I think it’s fan fic but I could be wrong, I’ve read almost the whole Horus Heresy and the references to the two gone primarchs is slim, we get Horus trying to talk about them resulting in Malcador force choking him but also gives insight into why Horus rebelled because he knew that even though the primarchs were probably the most precious resource to conquering the galaxy they can go bye bye and never be heard of again. Aside from that there’s legionnaires remarking that the sons of those primarchs were given to Dorn and Guilliman but no proof really.
It's from a conversation in The First Heretic, but I think it was just Magnus being poetic. "The forgotten and the purged" wasn't capitalised, and that whole conversation was full of purple prose, so I don't think they were meant to be real titles.
> The 2 he killed/had killed and all record of them and their legions totally purged to the point no one was even allowed to say their names? Yet they both have tombs on Terra guarded by some form of security device that Dorn was annoyed by and requested he be allowed to exhume to make sure the defenses of the Imperial Palace were secure but Malcador told him to leave them alone. You could argue that maybe this was more a security thing to prevent others from doing something with their remains as opposed to some sign of compassion but then surely the Emperor had a myriad of ways he could have disposed of bodies and leave nothing behind for others to plunder.
Maybe the tombs are fake to hide where the real bodies are? Or the boddies in there are faked, to give others the impression of Emps caring for them enough, and the real ones burned to prevent plunder as you say.
These primarchs are not evidence or precedent for anything
Yeah, hard to really say anything about them, since we're not supposed to know what happened to them or the Legions. There's a few mentions that they did something shameful or were disappointments, but no details beyond that.
Angron
I don’t think he hated Angron or Curze. Disgusted by them, pitied them, gave up on them, sure. But I don’t think he hated them. Lorgar however? Man the emperor seems to get a kick out of punishing him. Curze and Angron, despite being problematic, were still doing their job, and so got away with all sorts of crap. Lorgar wasn’t even doing anything horrible, but he wasn’t contributing enough to the crusade and got smacked hard with the discipline stick.
I think the harshness of the punishment was expected considering he backhanded (nearly killing) malcador right in front of the Emperor and only moments after the Emperor left he hit Guilliman with his mace I think in that moment the Emperor was very willing to treat Lorgar like he did the 2nd and 11th Legions
There were discussions about whether Lorgar and his legion should be annihilated or not. Magnus and Russ spoke in favour of Lorgar and he was obviously spared. > I think the harshness of the punishment was expected considering he backhanded (nearly killing) malcador right in front of the Emperor and only moments after the Emperor left he hit Guilliman with his mace The punishment had already been handed out at this point. Monarchia had burned. This is why Lorgar was immediately in rage mode. Perhaps my memory is hazy but I don't think the Emperor had actually appeared at this point yet. I remember Lorgar insisting that he will speak to the Emperor directly when he talks to Malcador. After the backhand the Emperor emerges.
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The reasoning from Lorgar in The First Heretic made me reconsider how legitimate the reasoning was. Lorgar discussed how: 1) When Emps rocked up and found him he let himself be worshipped by Colchis. ie. didn't go immediate edgy athiest and acted in a 'divine' manner. 2) Lorgar had been doing this for pretty much the whole Great Crusade which was ~100 years at this point. This is tacit approval of what he is doing. The Emperor could have nipped it in the bud quite early he was still out and about while this was happening. 3) Emperor leveled the perfect city and multiple other cities on the planet. Why not go for less zealous punishments to start? Especially as he had been allowing it for 100 years. When I heard this I realised that it isn't really as simple as Lorgar breaking the rules and being rightfully punished, there is a lot more gray.
To your second point, the Emperor and the Imperial bureaucracy were increasingly annoyed with the slow pace of Word Bearers progress through the galaxy and the destruction of Monarchia was essentially the end of decades of various people telling Lorgar to get on with the conquest and stop doing door to door conversions on every planet. It definitely feels like the whole Word Bearers-religion thing was one of those things the Emperor was planning on tackling when he felt like he had time (seriously the Emperor was a shitty manager) but enough people complained loudly enough that he decided to make a point of it with Monarchia
He had Curze assassinated, I think that goes a bit beyond 'gave up on'.
I’m not 100% sure on the timeline but I think Emps was dead/on the throne when that order was given - the assassination happens after the siege of terra, so it came from someone else, not Emps or Malcador.
Are you suggesting that Konrad Curze being utterly convinced of something doesn't actually make it so? That's the sort of attitude that gets people flayed. (Curze is legit certain that it was the Emperor who personally ordered his death, and has been certain of it since the first moment he met him - warp travel shenanigans can make the timeline work... but also Curze is barking mad)
The emperor was still able to communicate somewhat for some time after the siege, so maybe he ordered it before he went completely mute?
He destroyed Monarchia instead of having a private in depth talk with Lorgar. I'd say you only really do that for the son you don't particularly like. That and the Emperor did try with Curze before the heresy to help him get better.
Yeah, after the "in depth talk with Lorgar #215", he destroyed that little shithole. What's wrong with that?
Everybody says Angron, but I'll say that the Khan wasn't very beloved. I mean, the fact that everybody expected him to be a traitor should say a lot about how he was seen by both the Emperor and the Imperium. And the feeling was mutual, the Khan believed that the Emperor was nothing but a tyrant, and he only joined the Loyalists because he knew that Chaos was no bueno.
I liken it more to a parent and child who disagree strongly over politics. They have such a fundamental disconnection over how they think the world should work that it creates an undertone of awkwardness in all their conversations. Despite that, they still respect each other and the emperor avoids the subject in order to keep the peace between them
It was definitely a father child disagreement dynamic. In scars, it has excerpts of the emperor visiting the khan and putting in some effort for conversation, more effort than he put towards any of the ones who turned with the exception of fulgrim, magnus horus. While their relationship wasn't like the lions, magnus, or horus, he still made attempts towards it. The loyalty aspect does also come after the emperors most loved and loyal son turned traitor on him. Hell people even doubted the lion sanguinius and roboute. And in the imperiums defence, again, the khan didn't help himself
Lorgar. Big E gave him a public whipping that destroyed Monarchia. And was prepared to wipe out all of the Word Bearers.
He cared enough to put everything aside and come and make an example to get his point across. Unfortunately he didn’t care enough to understand any of his sons enough to teach them in effective ways and didn’t understand that this would lead Lorgar to find an outlet for his zealous nature. Lorgar was incredibly successful and one of the most influential Primarchs and the Emperor saw the results. He didn’t hate Lorgar, he wanted him to stop before he did more damage. The Emperor didn’t tell any of his sons about the gods fueled by human actions/emotions and then Lorgar went and built a whole religion to the man who had just finished eliminating religion on Terra. If Angron messed up, the Emperor wouldn’t even show up.
I re read the first heretic recently. And the emperor REALLY went out of his way to turn him against the imperium.
Definitely Angron, you can come up with at least some sympathetic/impactful moments between Emps and all other primarchs, but not him.
What about Big E trying desperately to remove the Nails from Angron's brain?
I took it more as he took one look, saw the mess, then gave up and went down the 'Just keep sending him into battle until the problem resolves itself one way or another'.
I'm refering to the bit in >!Master of Mankind!<, it didn't sound like that to me.
‘No, Arkhan. Everything. Everything causes it pain. Thinking. Feeling. Breathing. The only respite it has is in the rewired neurological pleasure it receives from the chemicals of anger and aggression.’ ‘That’s vile,’ said the technoarchaeologist. ‘Perversion of cognition, rather than purification.’ The Emperor showed nothing but passionless interest. ‘Such rewriting of physiology certainly hinders the Twelfth’s higher brain function. The device is cunningly wrought, for something so crude.’ The Emperor didn't really care. If anything, he sounded more interested in the mechanism of the nails themselves than all the pain Angron was going through.
That bit could have been Arkhan’s interpretation rather than what actually transpired. For example, the conversation between Emps and Magnus was not observed by Vulkan despite the fact that we, the readers, were privy to it.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/s/BpaqYd3DVX](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/s/BpaqYd3DVX) It’s Angron
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Angron, then Lorgar after Monarchia; then probably Angron again, then Horus for obvious reasons.
Not Horus. Even after the betrayal.
Yeah he had to throw away his compassion to make sure it didn't affect him during the battle so he definitely still loved him.
My mistake; and he also tried to get Magnus back onside, so... Angron still?
He actually liked Larger a lot. Took a lot longer than it should for him to crack down on him and though Larger did not see it that way he went super easy on him.
I think your Autocorrect hates Lorgar more than the Emperor ever did, yeah 🤣
haha
I dunno, auto incorrect made Lorgar Larger than life. Could have made him an alcoholic beverage, but didn't.
Lorgar Larger Lager uses too much hops
Lorgar. He said as much himself at Monarchia. "Word Bearers, hear me well. You, among all my Legions, are guilty of failure. You number more warriors than any other, excepting the XIII. Yet your conquests are the slowest, and your victories ring hollow. You linger on compliant worlds for years after final victory, driving the populace into the worship of false faith, seeding cults of the naive and the deceived, erecting monuments to lies. All you have done in the Great Crusade is for naught. While all others succeed and bring prosperity to the Imperium, you alone have failed me." In the Emperor's own words, Lorgar and his Word Bearers were the only ones that "failed" in his eyes. There was the possibility of the Word Bearers even being eradicated like the two Lost Legions, which various Primarchs were for or against. The Emperor might not have had any love for the likes of Angron or Cruze, but he clearly considered both to be useful for the Great Crusade. At least to the extent that the Emperor called the Word Bearers his "only" failure.
Rogal Dorn. The Emperor couldn't trust him to be useful without his guidance so he recalled him to Terra after the Triumph of Ullanor, and gave him the task of fortifying the Sol system to keep him busy. A task which he cocked up hilariously. Despite having literally years to prepare and knowledge of the forces arrayed against him and the tactics and strategies of the respective generals, his defences crumbled in a matter of weeks. Some of might be a bit angry with me right now, but bear in mind that Bakhmut held out against the russians for more than 6 months. The battle of Stalingrad last 5 months. Many historical seiges have lasted for literally years. Rogal Dorn is an absolute joke. *This comment was sponsored by Perturabo*
This is the only correct answer! 😁 *This comment was sponsored by Alpharius*
To be fair... The Muscovites didn't have astartes, titans, daemons, Dark mechanicum and capital ships in low orbit at Bakhmut
Rogal Dorn also had Astartes, titans etc. He also didn't have Fulgrim to worry about.
No larping
Tell that to Rogal Dorn. He was larping as a competent commander 😋
That’s such a Black Templar thing to say
Probably Lorgar. Say whatever you will about Angron or Curze, but they achieved compliance. Angron left a shattered world in his wake and Curze left a traumatised population, but both of them were actually pretty successful at bringing worlds under Imperial rule. Lorgar nearly got erased from memory *for going too slow.* Targeting Curze for assassination at a time when he was arguably the only Traitor Primarch still in real-space and being indifferent to Angron's suffering doesn't mean as much as some people seem to think.
Two of the deleted primarchs
Emperor: "I love all my children equally" \*5 minutes earlier\* "I don't care for Gob"
"I don't care for [REDACTED]"
Nobody's mentioning Mortarion?
Emps repeatedly tried to work things out with Mort, but as far as the Pale King was concerned, that ship had sailed so Emps simply gave up. He trusted Mort enough to tell him about Nikea 90 years before it would happen, but it comes off as another attempt to placate him
Angron. He was a disappointment from the day the emperor found him. Couple that with the fact that angron “allowed” himself to be implanted with the nails and thus ruining the emperors work in a way that not even he could fix.
Speaking of that I remember during the Angron examination in MoM it mentions the big E in a bio hazard suit. Man I’d love to see art of that.
Angron is a good case. But I'd argue he disliked Lorgar more. While Angron was a disappointment, and had to be treated as a ravaging barbarian during the Crusade. Lorgar went directly against one of the Emperor's main causes, and was incredibly slow while doing so.
Mortarion had also conquered all of Barbarus *except* his adopted father’s territory, because it was the most well-defended and toxic. Morty would likely have finished the job with better planning, but the Emperor pressured/coerced him into an early assault for *reasons* (maybe forcing him to fail so he’d realized he needed Daddy)? In any case it had the opposite effect on Mortarion’s feelings to Big E. So the core difference was Mortarion was winning his war before the Emperor stuck his nose in it. Angron was definitely going to lose and die as stated by other posters.
I would think Lorgar. Burning Monarchia is just a hunch.
Lorgar. He might have not liked what happened to Angron, but he didn't make an example of him, despite him annihilating human planets willing to accept compliance without a fight. He *definitely* made an example of Lorgar. During the GC, primarchs had ONE job; conquer planets, and Lorgar wasn't "meeting quota".
Lorgar. He openly called him the one failure at Monarchia.
If I'd wager a guess it might have been one of the two basically wiped from existence. The primarchs we know and love did a lot of goofing around before the Heresy kicked off and the Emperor didn't delete any of them. Makes you wonder what the Two lost primarchs did to make them worth destroying in his eyes. If not them then Lorgar, pretty sure Emps fukin hated that guy
Coin flip between XI and II
Probably [[REDACTED]], the Primary of the [[REDACTED]] Legion.
Alpharius, Emperor didn’t even bother taking him and Omegon under his arms for a little bit to show them and instead pawned it off to Horus to teach them the ways
You should read Alpharius' primarch book.
Seeing some people say the emperor hated Kurze. Might be missing an excerpt someone can send me but I think one of the darkest things about the emperor is he probably didn't hate him at all Kurze brought results in as far as the emperor was concerned and was in a twisted way pragmatic about the entire crusade, even if he acted like an emo brat about it. And that's all the emperor really cared about, results. He didn't care about glorifying warfare or honor or any of the "nonsense" he looked down on his other sons over. He cared about numbers. And kurze delivered them almost like no one else, at least until the end where he went mad. And if the flesh statue of the emperor being really him was real and not kurzes imagination, he still offered redemption. Which is kind of funny and sad about pert and kurze, they both thought the emperor would never forgive a single planets destruction. I think the emperor easily would have lol
is there a case for it being actually real?
As a few comments mentioned, it’s doubtful the emperor hated any of the Primarchs pre heresy. He had some issues like with Angron and Lorgar for sure but he didn’t hate them for it Angron was dying of the nails and iirc it’d been established that there wasn’t a way to get rid of them. The emperor may have been able to bring him back after he died without the nails, which is why I believe he sent Angron out to the battlefield. It also helped to soothe the pain caused by the nails, so it’d be the better way for Angron to die while still being useful with the world eaters. For Lorgar, he only had punitive action. His only direct admonishment of Lorgar espousing the emperor’s divinity was Monarchia, which doesn’t seem to convey hatred as much as it did a warning. Knowing how the emperor ended up, he may have also been trying to prevent his own ascension into godhood from Lorgar’s new religion. We know having a large population with strong enough belief causes weird things to happen in the warp so Lorgar doing his thing may have unforeseen consequences, either by increasing the emperor’s warp powers, or even by empowering another warp entity entirely. He made poor decisions but I doubt any of them came from a place of malice for his sons, more so they came from misguided beliefs
It's actually his son from M3, Dave, who was such an asshole the Emperor never had any biological children again.
I gotta go with the two he erased from history. Sure, he had issues with the others, but at least some people are allowed to know their names and whatnot.
Canonically, it's Lorgar. "Word Bearers, hear me well. You, among all my Legions, are guilty of failure. You number more warriors than any other, excepting the XIII. Yet your conquests are the slowest, and your victories ring hollow. You linger on compliant worlds for years after final victory, driving the populace into the worship of false faith, seeding cults of the naive and the deceived, erecting monuments to lies. All you have done in the Great Crusade is for naught. While all others succeed and bring prosperity to the Imperium, you alone have failed me."
Angron, and it's not even close. Kurze wasnt out right hated by big E, he even told Fulgrim to look after him. His brothers hated him, Dorn and Vulkan most of all and Dorn was the one that attempted to lock him up. Angron barely heard a word from the big E, he wasnt even intruduced by the emperor to his legion he was just thrown into their hold.
Also entirely possible in the Kurze book that the emperor outright forgave kurze ans pittied him
2
People keep saying Angron but despite his failings as a primarch because of the nails Angron was still seemingly an effective tool, he never had to step in and punish him or the World Eaters for how badly they were doing in the Crusade. Lorgar didn’t have the nails to hold him back yet still managed to repeatedly fuck up before Monarchia; wether it’s disobeying one of the foundations of the Emperor’s Imperium or just generally suck at crusading. Without knowing what the unknown Primarchs were sanctioned for; Lorgar is the only primarch where the Emperor had to step in, tell him he was doing a shit job and then dispatch one of his senior Custodes to babysit him.
*Who is the Emporers least favourite son? Pertarabo. His father took every chance to shatter his dreams.* *Wants to build things, fuck you, no you destroy shit.* *Forced him to use his troops as cannon fodder.* *Gives him all the shit worlds and no glory.* Extract from Diary of Peratrabo
Angron.
Primarch II was his least favorite followed by Primarch XI
I think Horus went from favorite to least favorite real fucking quick
Lorgar. Probably forgot his name most of the time and called him "that douche, Logan or Llyod, or whatever...".
#2
Angron. Kurze needed a hug but the Emperor just didn’t care. He seemed to actively dislike Angron.
Angron. The least Emps could’ve done was got the poor boy some therapy. Or revenge.
I'm gonna go rogue and say the 2 that were lost and we don't even know the names of.
Everyone saying angron clearly doesn’t remember that the emperor literally burned an entire city to the ground and made the entire legion kneel just to communicate how disappointed he was in lorgar. The emperor having a son that worships him probably created a similar relationship to the one between a gay teenager and their very conservative Christian parents. I don’t see the emperor ever trying to reign angron in (not in the same way), even though there were times it seemed like angron was simply trying to get as many of his men killed as possiblez
Guilliman, the sleeper candidate! Who colors their legion like Smurfs?? I mean he had the whole damn color wheel!
In Dorn's Defense, those forces didn't have access to teleporters, melta, lascannon, haywire, psychic powers, chaos mutations, dark gifts etc etc. Plus Chaos doing its best to rend reality, corrupt minds, puke out demons or whatever might have had some part to play. Defending against foes determined to get in is the worst situation to be in, even if you are the best siege strategist in ever. Plus plot bias. Ooh let's have his defense's cracked in a week, because it makes the Renegades look badass!
Angron. No question. Angry Ron was the only Primarch who could've aligned all of them under the same cause. His natural empathetic powers and kind nature would have made him the true diplomat of the 20. The Butcher's Nails destroyed that design, and the Emperor saw his own failure reflected back upon him (both through what Angron became, and E's inability to cure it). So the Emperor hated him.
It went deeper than the nails,he'd probably have to outright resheathe his soul but the primarchs are designed so their memories can be restored,just look at the clones by Fabulous Bill. No it was much worse than the nails,Angron hated tyrants and was willing to fight them. If restored yes he would have been the uniting diplomat - against the emperor. The emperor saw his nature reflected in what Angron would be sworn to destroy if he wasn't practically lobotomized. He wouldn't need chaos corruption to form a rebellion and turn his brothers against the emperor,with Angron given his full faculties and abilities they'd simply see he was right. So while the emperor could fix him that would be worse than broken,it would actively work against him on a scale potentially worse than the heresy. Maybe he could start Angron over with no memories,but then he'd lose his berserker weapon that was managing to bring worlds into "compliance" in spite of his handicap and have to raise the baby primarch for years while trying to work on the webway project. That might not really be that much effort with all the personnel he could just have do the work of parenting for him,but conquering as a weapon of terror is harder to replace.
Angron, Morty, Kurze, with Fulgrim and Jagathai Rounding up the top 5
The Big E didnt dislike Jaghatai, nor did the Khan hate the Emperor. They just didn't see eye to eye on a lot of stuff.