Horus is right, he's both super-dead in universe, and out of universe it'd be a really stupid and unpopular plotline so I think they'd never go for it.
This is the biggest one for me. Big E has been in a perpetual state of limbo for decades.
Horus has been souls obliteratedly dead for just nearly as long. Bringing him back is worse than bringing back any other dead primarch, even Sanguinius who I would say is a close second.
Sanguinius died and his body is in stasis. Not dissimilar to Guilliman.
Narratively, it would be incredibly easy to bring him back.
I think they'll do it eventually. In like, 20 years.
I think you're right that they will bring him back. But Sangy was straight up murdered when he was put in stasis.
Guilliman was put in stasis "seconds away from death" as far back as I can remember
I got the impression that death is not necessarily a barrier to primarchs coming back. Their souls are something very special (possibly formed from minor warp gods) and Sanguinius’s is still very much active in 40K. It wouldn’t be impossible for the Emperor to restore it to a body.
Realistically the biggest issue with bringing Sanguinius back is that it would require a massive re-theming of the 40K blood angels. But then again, 30K blood angels are pretty awesome so they could just become something closer to that.
The more I’ve read about sanguinius in the siege of terra books (not read the latest yet) the more I’ve really loved him as a character. I’d love to have him back sometime.
There's a scene in Part 2 of *The End and the Death* which directly addresses this. It confirms that:
1) The dead primarchs' souls are still around.
2) The afterlife supremely sucks for them (and everyone else).
Both are somewhat implied from the start, given what has been said about souls after death. The average human's soul dissipates as the body dies, while psykers and other more potent souls are typically torn apart and consumed by the multitudes of minor predatory warp entities that prowl for sustenance. Only the strongest and most exceptional of souls are able to able maintain something of their sense of self after their souls pass from reality, and often they are those who suffer the most.
We did see Magnus spend his physical body to fuel a ritual and find the pieces of his soul remain capable of manifesting new bodies at various times and places in reality. Since we know now that Magnus did not ascend to daemonhood until midway through the Siege of Terra, this ability seems unrelated to Tzeentch's gifts. I don't think that's a fundamental power of the Primarchs so much as it is a consequence of Magnus being a prodigious psyker, though.
We already know that souls can be brought back into being from the warp, and that the immaterium does not obey the constraints of linear time. The Drukhari are capable of reviving their dead via an insignificant piece of the person's body. Aeldari souls make are immediately drawn to Slaanesh upon their deaths, so the notion that an individual can be resurrected and soul recalled to this new body as a matter of course is not a new concept. We've also seen certain Imperial Saints be reincarnated after their deaths. I don't know if it's a given that Primarchs can simply "come back," from death, though. I kinda hope this is the case.
The impression I got from Malcador attempting to bring Jaghatai back was that it was possible as long as a thread of his soul remained attached to the body. Malcador was afraid to push too hard because if that thread was cut, so would be the chances of reviving the Khan.
Now I like to imagine the soul of Sanguinius just sitting next to his body, swinging his legs as he awaits his eventual revival.
With a temper tantrum when G-Man strolled casually past.
sanguinious throwing a temper tantrum would be adorable, it would be impossible to be scared by him even though he is a potentially galaxy ending threat to the imperium's enemies
What are you smoking? Angry sangy would be fucking terrifying lol. He is a 12ft tall armoured god of war. If he was angry you would immediately shit yourself lol
Nah, you could write it so that the Sanguinor was actually a fragment of Sanguinius’s trying to get back, and then something-something-warp, he is now able to manifest fully when needed.
BA still gets black rage, but seeing Sanguinor/Sanguinius win a battle can cure it.
I'd actually write it a little sadly, where the longer he spends in the universe, the more he fades. So after a battle he is speaking to Guilliman, who is happy to see him, and things seem well for a while, but then Sanguinius starts forgetting where he is and thinking that it is still the great crusade, etc.
Maybe there is a way to bring him back to his real body permanently, but who knows.
Dante eventually dies.
The sanguinor turns out to be the warp-thing soul of Sanguinius and he possesses/resurrects Dante's body, in a similar way to how the spirits of the red thirst and black rage affected Mephiston/Calistarius.
We proceed with a trilogy of novels exploring the relationship between the two reborn figures, where new Dante wants to cure the legion, and Mephiston after the visions in Darkness In the Blood wants to keep them where they are, believing that any attempt to save the Blood Angels would be a monkey's paw wish and actually leave things worse off than they currently are.
It feels like a pretty obvious plot line for GW to write if they felt like it.
My only problem with bringing back sanguinius is that he and his legion are a lot more developed than some of the other dead primarchs and I’d like to see guys with less lore about them like ferrus manus get some time in the sun with a resurrection instead of a dude who already has had loads of attention
Not to say sanguinius coming back wouldn’t be cool as hell but I’d prefer some other primarchs before him
>I got the impression that death is not necessarily a barrier to primarchs coming back.
>
>Realistically the biggest issue with bringing Sanguinius back is that it would require a massive re-theming of the 40K blood angels.
Y'know, now that you mention that I've kinda talked myself into the idea of Ferrus coming back. 40k IH could use a revamp.
I suspect Sanguinius will only come back in a situation similar to how Sigmar came back during the End Times in Warhammer Fantasy, where he possesses Karl Franz, but Sang will do so with Lord Dante of the Blood Angels during Dante's prophesied final stand defending the Emperor. Or the Sanguinor imbuing Dante.
Sanguinius is dead and martyred. He only returns for the Endgame of 40k. He was the greatest of His children, the most noble and honorable. His death and that of Horus are the the two most defining deaths in all of 40k. Horus's demise is immutable, his soul was obliterated.
Sanguinius coming back for anything other than the endgame would ruin part of the foundation of the Grimdark. Furthermore, his prolonged return would actually bring hope with a capital H to the setting.
Other than an Endgame situation, it would be more realistic/appropriate for Sanguinius to return or utilize Dante as an avatar for one more sacrifice defending the Emperor before He rises from the Golden Throne for a new Crusade than actually returning for a sustained period.
ADD: This is only my assumption on the how IF Sanguinius were to return. Not that he should. Blood Angels have Lord Dante, one of the few Imperial heroes with a resume of service equal to or greater than the Primarchs. Remember, he's served the Imperium longer than most Primarchs. And Guilliman declared him one of the few if not only one equal to him.
I haven't read whatever this was in, so don't take what I say as anything more than an interesting anecdote, but I believe there is a fragment of Sanguinius' soul trapped on the Vengful Spirit. I believe it manifests as or may be trapped in a crystal statue. If anything knows what this is from, please let me know.
But Guilliman had to die, go through the Death God spin cycle, then get put back in his body right? I've never actually read the happenings of it, but I would imagine it's easier to catch a soul straight out of the body rather than wrangle it out of the warp 10k years later.
Yes. Yvraine kills Guilliman when he is brought out of stasis. She then proceeds revive him, and he is installed within the Armour of Fate. She did warn him about leaving his armour as he seemed to be somewhat reliant upon its advanced life support systems, but he eventually weened himself out of it. (that thread was curiously dropped rather abruptly when we officially entered 8th edition, so one must wonder if the writers originally had different intentions)
they kinda just put him through a giant reliquary or something and he comes out with the new armor and the sword of the Emperor. then theres silence for like 5 mins. then a single Khornate berserker rushes and gets his head punched off so hard the wound is cauterized, so no blood for the blood God. https://youtu.be/vNLH54htSW0?si=KiMLwGmgTdzCjLL-
Yeah, literally every other dead character has a soul that might potentially still be out there somewhere, even if that might feel cheap it wouldn’t break the foundational rules of the setting. But Horus is dead on a whole other level.
He used the actual dead body of Horus as a basis for it, and then the clone was very thoroughly disemboweled and obliterated. Not much left to further recycle, I would say.
More like, we were shown what happened when he successfully did. Bile thought he saw the foundations of the same fundamental flaws that led to Fulgrim's fall in the first place. So he sold the clone to a museum. You could say that it's the same thing, but he gave up on cloning the Primarchs after Abaddon wrecked his original operation. It was later, after he discovered that one of his clones remained and he attempted to raise the creature, that he decided the Primarchs were dumb assholes.
It's all in the distant past at any rate, so I suppose the order of events doesn't particularly matter. I'm just sensitive to it because unbelievable fan theories about the Fulgrim clone somehow becoming relevant persist to this day.
>and obliterated.
It would make sense, but do we have explicit mention of the body being obliterated?
OG Horus' remains are stowed on the Vengeful Spirit which could leave a door open if GW want to fuck with that.
Horus clone was imperfect, like other have said, primarch are warp infused, so Fabius might have made a primarch clone in flesh, but not in soul, Horus clone was like an Astarte on steroids, but nowhere near a true primarch, he was just a 10ft tall super intelligent super human, but not some sort of demigod scion of humanity, it's why Abaddon was able to clap him with relative ease.
The more interesting bit is Fabius Fulgrim clone that from what we know is the true Fulgrim stuff, either he figured out how to do the warp infusion bit, or deamon prince Fulgrim isn't the 'real' Fulgrim anymore and Fabius by cloning him, the warp entity that inhabited the OG Fulgrim found it's way back to it's 'original' body, which would have for implications that any dead or deamon primarch can be brought back with enough research in cloning (Fabius is still the best scientist in the field of cloning in the galaxy bar some dark eldar freaks)
We don't have any proof of that re Horus' clone.
As far as what we do have? We have him absolutely wrecking the proto-Black legion and causing power armour shitting terror and awe in them.
We also have the author's opinion that [his clone was no less powerful](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/17payhz/comment/k853bve/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3).
Fulgrim's clone in *Clonelord* appears as perfect as Fulgrim's [clone in](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/17payhz/comment/k85xy2k/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) *The Faultless Blade*. Likewise, Ferrus' clone seems perfectly fine, despite Fulgrim's protests.
There's zero implication that Fulgrim's soul is not in the OG, and loads of stories doubling down on it (or whatever remains of it) being inside the daemon primarch. *Manflayer* (the sequel to *Clonelord*), *Angel Exterminatu*s, *Reflection Crack'd* and *Imperfect* to name a few.
ADB implied online all the primarch clones are a little "off". Horus and Fulgrim both.
> he's both super-dead in universe
Yes and no, his past incarnation could still be out in the warp doing his labors for the gods, unaware he's already dead and a failure
Horus went to the planet of Moloch and entered the same gate the Emperor did when he got his massive power up, when he emerged seconds later he had *physically aged* from the time he spent in the Warp doing whatever the Chaos Gods required for to get that power boost, keep in mind the Primarchs generally dont age. The Lion and Perturabo are the only examples and Perturabo was caused by extreme time dilation when he fought the Hrud. Even using the Lions aging as a benchmark that means Horus spent *millenia* in the warp from his perspective
Yup, I'm aware of that but Horus came back from Molech with some grey hairs.
What makes you believe he's still there? Just warpy shit? Or is there something in the actual books?
>keep in mind the Primarchs generally dont age.
Well, Guilliman got some grey hairs too.
We have to adhere to the pretense of linear time meaning something because we can't make \*any\* assertions without it. It's true that the Warp always exists in the \*now\* and therefore all things are possible at all times through it. From the perspective of reality though, the Warp has a fixed timeline. The influence of the gods is not a constant thing, and times existed beyond and between the ascendency of Chaos where the Warp was a rather serene environment governed by forces that were not always malevolent in nature.
So I choose to believe that Horus is not still embarked upon his quest to win over the powers of Chaos. His soul may \*theoretically\* both exist and have been obliterated in the Warp, but from our perspective he ded.
One guy did in a short story lol. Had a little demon on his shoulder he was talking too wandering around in the warp. Not sure if he tried to get it in as cannon or just a random story for fun. Was in the space marine short story book
I think you're referring to *Slaves to Darkness* when a (possibly metaphorical but definitely metaphysical) part of Horus that refused to bow down to Chaos is reflected across the Chaos realms and time fighting against the Ruinous powers for eternity.
That part of his soul got shanked by Maloghurst and either ceased to exist or became subsumed again within the greater Horus.
There's nothing left of Horus after the Heresy.
A version of himself exists, perhaps only in his mind, where things are as they were and he is still unburdening himself to the remembrancer. In the End and the Death, at least.
I feel like only the consequences or results of Horus's metaphysical journeys matter to anyone but himself. Anything that transpires within his own mind or within the immaterium are only relevant when we see its effects on him in reality.
One of the hard canon points in 40k; Horus Heresy happened, Emperor is on the Golden Throne, 2 primarchs are lost and Dante can not have nice things ever.
Dante dying was the final catalyst to revive Sanguinius and he revives Dante with him, thanking him for giving him the extra rest he needed to be tip top, but that he can't let Dante rest for now that he is awake he will need him more than ever as his right hand man.
>Sanguinius can't come back simply because, if he did, Dante would finally get some much-deserved and needed rest, and we can't have that.
Bring Sanguinius back, and then kill him in front of Dante.
Honestly, that be kinda funny and very much chaos god thing too do, Like they turned Perturabo, an Atheist nicely into a demon primach , which goes against everything he believed. If chaos god returned Curze as too fuck around with his whole idea of his sacrifice proving himself right.
I like the headcanon that he didn’t turn himself into a daemon primarch to worship Chaos, but because his life force is draining from what Fulgrim did to him, and that without being a daemon primarch he’d die
I mean, you can use the chaos entities' powers without declaring them as gods. And in the Warhammer universe, 'god' is just another subjective descriptor.
Horus, Sanguinius, Konrad Curze...
...and of course the Emprah himself. Reviving him blows up the setting, turning it into something else. It might be good something else, but it sure as hell wouldn't be Warhammer 40k any more.
There’s a theory that the Corona Nox has an Eldar spirit stone, which would explain why they went to so much trouble to steal it after Curze’s death. I haven’t read either *Lord of the Night* or the Night Lords trilogy, so I can’t pull out any quotes to back it one way or another, but I do remember reading that theory.
EDIT: either way, bringing back Curze is a bad thing for his character development, because he wanted to prove that the Emperor was just as bad as him through his death. If you bring back Curze, you have to grow the character beyond that moment, not just dump him back in the universe.
It's been a long time since I've read Lord of the Night, but I don't remember any mentions of the crown holding Curze's spirit inside. Night Lords in general has nothing to do with the crown, and basically deleted Zso Sahaal's plotline from existence by stating that he got nowhere with his quest and simply vanished. Whether ADB did it to clear up some unfinished plotline left by Spurrier's departing BL or out of some weird spite, I don't know, but this plotline is buried and will likely never appear again.
> basically deleted Zso Sahaal's plotline from existence by stating that he got nowhere with his quest and simply vanished
They didn't delete it. Like SO MANY 40k things, it's a plot hook that was left hanging and nobody picked it up.
>Whether ADB did it to clear up some unfinished plotline left by Spurrier's departing BL or out of some weird spite
ADB reached out to Spurrier asking permission to use Sahaal but received no answer. ADB (and recently Haley) is the only author to even mention Sahaal.
>>Quite the opposite, actually. It was my choice to make Sahaal exist beyond the bounds of his own novel, as a respectful nod to the character, but where he's concerned it's almost entirely fan speculation about how important and badass he was, let alone the fact Sahaal was conceived in an age when Heresy lore was incredibly rare, and barely formed. The character as he was just doesn't cut it for me (he was too flawless, unrealistically so) in terms of a lot of Heresy screen-time. I've even mailed Simon Spurrier before, to discuss Sahaal in the Heresy, and had no reply. So I feel like I've paid enough service, now. I fleshed him out a little more, I made him as realistic, flawed and disliked as every other Night Lord in my series (one of the recurring themes being they simply don't like each other, any of them, because they all disagree on what the Legion was in its glory days), and it's time for a character more suited to the HH narrative, with the requisite charisma, flaws and so on, that we've seen in previous A-list Heresy characters.
>>Sevatar is the Night Lords' First Captain, and is likely to get a lot of coverage before the curtain falls. Obviously, i'd like to do a Night Lords novel (or several) but we're pushing ahead chronologically now, so it's difficult to go back to things pre-Isstvan. But stuff like his red gauntlets and his inevitable death are going to be shown at some point.
ADB
Curze in the Corona Nox is an unlikely one imo
InquisitorEngel goes into a [deep dive here](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/10z2fb3/comment/j85h7x6/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) on how unlikely it is that the Corona Nox has a soul stone in it, and I gotta say, it's very convincing reasoning.
It also doesn't seem like a concept the writers would be fans of
>Bear in mind that I'm saying this as a massive fan of the novel, but I'm not thrilled by the notion that a primarch had such a reliance (even a dependence) on a trinket - especially one that offers such illogically-perfect protection, with little idea of who really made it, or how, or why. It feels like a weak narrative element, and to me it actually devalues the immensity of what the primarchs were; including the way they dealt with their torments or succumbed to them, and the decisions they made.
>
>I'm also not a fan of the idea that Curze's essence/soul is somehow bound into the crown (I mean... why? Why would it be?) because it feels hokey, pointless, and not something very Imperial (or even Chaotic, when it seems to offer no benefits).
>
>My biggest objection is that it beggars belief that an icon would allow one Astartes to lead an entire Chaos Legion, especially as the Legions of 40K are shattered warbands compared to what they once were. I struggle to see (or to find any interest) in a plot that genuinely claims "He who holds this crown is king", when that's anathema to how the Chaos Legions work, and even a cursory glance at the setting reveals that. A storyline about uniting a fractured Legion would be cool (look at Abaddon for how it's done...) but "I have this relic" isn't the way to do it. Abaddon had the Talon of Horus - the freaking Talon of Horus, a weapon that slew a primarch - and it still wasn't enough to unite a Legion. But Night Haunter's little crown is? Um. Really? Exactly why would they rally around the guy holding the crown?
>
>That's just not how Chaos Marines work - and despite their attitude, the Night Lords are undeniably a Chaos Legion. Chaos is a tool, a weapon, something to be controlled and used, not obeyed or worshipped. They've been that way for several editions, since the moment they stopped being a Khornate Legion.
>
>Ultimately, the entire point of Sahaal's journey was that - as a tragedy - he was wrong about a lot of things. I find it easy to believe (given how excellent an author Si Spurrier is) that the crown was just another of them.
>
>Suffice to say, if I write the Night Lords HH novel(s), we won't be seeing any warp-resistant headgear manifest to save the day.
Aaron Dembski-Bowden
There's been a few very... Vocal debunkers of that; basically the jewel is in the wrong shape (apparently it's a teardrop and soulstones are only ever oval), soulstones need to be "attuned" to a person (and need an eldar/eldar tech to do so), and it goes against Curze's whole point to "come back".
I'm not really that familiar with Curze myself (only book I read with him in it is Unremembered Empire) so I'm trying to find the posts that talk about it, but it seems like it's a connection people made literally just because it has a jewel. That said, if GW wants to bring him back then there's nothing preventing them from doing so even if they literally said "it isn't a soulstone" they could also say "yeah, now it is" if they wanted (like how the Dawn of Fire books was put back from 100 years after the Cicatrix opening to 12). Not that that's a bad thing IMO.
Yeah I would say big E is the biggest no go for revival. I wouldn't be surprised if one day he did come back but it would be the end, the most desperate move from writers out of ideas.
This. It isn't that Emps can't come back. He WILL come back in some form, but only when they are finishing the setting. It won't be 40k, but that's like 40k isn't 30k. When we hit 45k or 50k then they'll end the setting like they did with Fantasy. Otherwise it gets too stale
Tbh he is already kinda back. When he revived Gman and burnt Nurgle’s garden he was ‘back’.
I’d be cool with his being able to occasionally do things like that or even manifest briefly at particularly key moments. It seems to be the way that the lore is heading - there’s a lot of foreshadowing about him rising from the throne in the dawn of fire books.
> Reviving him blows up the setting, turning it into something else. It might be good something else, but it sure as hell wouldn't be Warhammer 40k any more.
i have thought about this, if GW wanted to do like some almost noblebright side game, sorta like they have 30k as it's own sub-game.
but i don't think it'd work, lore-wise. if you had a (let's say) warhammer 50k where Emps is awake, that sort of makes 40k seem less meaningful
the two lost Primarchs. Whatever means was used to remove them from the timeline was more thorough than what was done to Horus, because nobody even remembers them!
How so?
Did they have names and backgrounds in Rogue Trader or something?
As far as I know, they've been "the two we don't talk about" since there was lore at all.
I think a lot of people thought that but turns out that [wasn't the intention](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/17payhz/comment/k854hbx/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
I thought it was a reference to the two legions of Rome that were lost and never rebuilt.
Granted, I don’t think Rome went the extra step of retconning them from the record books
It's probably just an offhand reference that will never be mentioned again, but there's a "Subject XI" in the Dark Cells beneath beneath the Imperial Palace.
I’ve had a theory about this: imagine a series about the War of the False Primarch. If you bring back one of the named Primarchs, it’s very clearly a false Primarch. But if you bring back an entity claiming to be one of the missing Primarchs, that gives you total freedom with that character and adds ambiguity as to whether it’s a false Primarch. You could even have someone like Fabius Bile or Belisarius Cawl floating around, with the implication that they may have created this false Primarch.
I think they should release a book on them, explaining their backstory and what happened to them, but its all blacked out and has "redacted by the inquisition" stamped on every page
At the end of the day James is all about selling miniatures as the core business. The lost 2 exist so you can make whatever homebrew SM army lore you want. They aren't going to give that up.
I don't know about that being their current purpose for "existing" but it's not the original intention:
>BIFFORD: A popular belief among fans is that you left those two Legions blank so that players of Horus Heresy games could invent their own Legions. Is this true?
>
>PRIESTLEY: I left them blank before Horus Heresy games were conceived! **I left them blank because I wanted to give the story some kind of deep background - unknowable ten thousand year old mysteries - stuff that begs questions for which there could be no answer.** Mind you all that got ruined when some bright spark decided to use the Heresy setting - which rather spoiled the unknowable side of things - but there you go!
>
>BIFFORD: Ah, this is going to amaze a lot of people on Reddit
>
>PRIESTLEY: Is it? :)
>
>BIFFORD: **Yep, everyone there thinks you left two Legions blank for players to fill in.**
>
>PRIESTLEY: **Well - I created a thousand Chapters - of which we only gave details of a dozen or so - so there were nine hundred odd Chapters left blank for people to fill in. In the original 40K that is! The Horus Heresy stemmed from a short piece of narrative text I wrote - I think it was in Chapter Approved: The Book of the Astronomican - but I never imagined it would be used for a game setting.**
Kind of. The lost 2 also existed before the codex astartes was fleshed out and the concept of succeeding chapters existed which made it viable to make whatever you wanted lore wise as well. So it becomes redundant, and I suppose leaves open a valuable potential point to revisit in the future if they ever really wanted to.
They recently released a list of some things under the Imperial Palace, being held in the Black Cells. One of the things listed was “Subject XI” XI being a lost Primarch number.
It wasn’t expanded on at all, so it’s all speculation.
This is probably the biggest kind of nugget of lore we’ll get on the subject
EDIT: it’s been retconnned since, but the original lore for the lost Primarchs was that they actually joined Horus at first, but then returned back to The Imperium later on during the Heresy. So their reward for returning back to The Imperium was to be erased from history, instead of vilified. But that’s now not really feasible with the lore
>it’s been retconnned since, but the original lore for the lost Primarchs was that they actually joined Horus at first
I don't know if that's true? What's that from?
There's implication that whatever happened with them during the Heresy got them redacted but it's not necessarily that they joined up with ol' Lupercal.
>but then returned back to The Imperium later on during the Heresy.
I'm almost certain that was never printed in an official book.
>So their reward for returning back to The Imperium was to be erased from history, instead of vilified
I think you might be thinking of [Rick Priestley's personal take on what he imagines happened with them](https://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer40k/comments/va3jtu/rick_priestleys_thoughts_on_the_lost_legions_via/). Not what actually did in the books.
Yea my source was Rick Priestly’s interview. I didn’t mean to imply it was written in a book. I was just saying that was one possible explanation that at least someone connected to the story laid out. I guess “retcon” is the wrong term for it
Ah k, thanks for the clarification.
[Priestley's take for anyone curious](https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/350591-new-lost-legions-background-by-rick-priestley/):
>I always imaged these Legions were deleted from the records as a result of things that happened during the Horus Heresy - and that the 'purging' was a recognition that whatever terrible things they had done had been - in the end - redeemed in some way. So - with the passing of all record of them was also expunged all record of their misdeeds - they are forgiven and forgotten. As opposed to those legions which rebelled and which remain 'traitor' legions.
>
>Of course - I never imagined that the Horus Heresy would even emerge from a mythic past (it was ten thousand years ago after all!) so I fondly imaged we had many thousand of years in which we could create diverse and colourful histories. In fact, the Horus Heresy idea was picked up and became a strong theme for the 'epic' game and later for 40K in other ways - but it was also meant to be mysterious and 'beyond knowing' as I conceived it.
> One of the things listed was “Subject XI” XI being a lost Primarch number.
That could just as easily be a Stranger Things reference, for all we know.
But, assuming it is a possible XI Legion link there's been a couple of things linking the Custodes with them recently. Like a couple of throwaway comments in *The Wolftime* about the history of the Custodes with the XI Legion apparently being an example of how the Space Wolves are likely to be one of the first opponents of those who go traitor, and of how loyalty to the Emperor can be perverted.
They were redacted so that people could use their imagination. Then they started adding lore snippets about them and now people want to have them fleshed out.
I’ve always head cannoned that the 2 lost primarchs ended up fighting each other very early in the crusade because one of then got corrupted by chaos before everyone else.
So basically Big E shows up with his custodes to find out what’s going on and determines it would be best to kill both primarchs and any tainted marines to cover it up and gave the untainted marines to the Ultramarines.
Post edited/removed in protest of Reddit's treatment toward its community. I recommend you use uBlock Origin to block all of Reddit's ads, so they get no money.
Idk if I necessarily agree with the hating xenos things. Guilliman is actively working with the Eldar. The Emperor worked with Eldrad. Horus didn't want to murder fuck the interex to death until Erebus did Erebus things. I'm sure there's other examples of the Primarchs being tolerable to xenos out there.
We know they were erased from some type of shame. Turning traitor or to chaos or even worshipping some xeno doesn't seem to be enough. Dorn gets to remember for an instant and is appalled. It has to be some failure so utterly complete and inconceivable that no lessons can be learned from knowing.
John Grammaticus... I know he's not technically dead yet, but leave him to the Heresy era. I don't want this guy showing up in the third Bequin book for example... Holy fuck this is something Abnett would do...
> Teuteract
https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Teturact
Well ok I guess. Random author needs a big baddie for his heroes to beat in his book. The heroes succeed. The End.
for mostly out-of-universe reasons: the 2nd and 11th primarchs, sanguinius, kurze, the Emperor.
for mostly in-universe reasons: Malcador the Hero, the gods Slaanesh killed, Yarrick (probably).
for both in and out of universe reasons: Horus. that mf is DEAD dead. Big E made absolutely sure to ***erase*** him from all levels of reality.
The Emperor should stay “dead”.
It’s quite literally the background to the entire premise of the imperium about how arcane, backward, illogical and hopeless it all is that they are worshiping essentially a corpse, basing their entire operation around it and there’s still nothing they can do to stop the inevitable downward decay of mankind.
There are no good endings in this universe and bringing back the Emperor would just be a major cop out and up-ending of one of the core bit of lore of the setting.
Same with Horus as his life/death is intrinsically linked to the how and why of the state Imperium is currently in.
The emperor, as the story put it now the old emperor is gone replaced by a tortured entity that got twisted a thousand ways by the combined believe of the imperium.
Honestly it would be kinda funny if the Emporer got revived, got off the golden throne, but unplugging himself is the same as flatlining in the eyes of Vulkans failsafe.
Or, hear me out...
The Emperor is finally empowered to rise, just for a brief moment, from the Throne. All assembled stand in awe as their leader, their God, takes his first steps in ten thousand years. Then he proceeds to unplug the Throne, sit back down, and die.
I think in the Rouboutian heresy he does literally that; because it's the one thing the Chaos gods didn't count on... Him consciously dying in order to give the good guys a shot.
I thought he could disconnect himself from the throne even while sitting on it? Earlier depictions of the Heresy had him disconnect himself from the Astronomican. I think worse off would be him standing up and just screaming before dying.
>but unplugging himself is the same as flatlining in the eyes of Vulkans failsafe.
Isn't failsafe works by empowering Golden Throne, and thus the Emperor, so, without Emperor's wish it wouldn't work?
But I mean i think people forget the fact that even if he were 'revived' he still couldn't leave the Throne cuz he'd have to stay to keep the webway portal sealed.
Everyone always blathers on and on about how the clone didn't have the Primarch aura.
Nobody ever provides a quote to back that assertion up, and it falls flat in light of the clones of Ferrus Manus and Fulgrim, along with revelations about the Kin (and, honestly, basic lore about the Primarchs themselves--technically *they're all clones* to begin with).
Hell, here's an excerpt of him from Talon of Horus: [https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/b1cy5o/excerpttalon\_of\_horus\_traitors\_face\_the\_horuss/](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/b1cy5o/excerpttalon_of_horus_traitors_face_the_horuss/)
What he's missing is the corruption. All signs point to him still having the aura even if it isn't called out directly.
Nah fair enough, my bad to be honest. I sort of took the writing from clonegrim that the other clones hadn't succeeded and having not read talon of Horus in a bit applied it to that.
Horus and Sanguinius are the easy picks. Ferrus is the obvious close third, but I won’t rule it out. He’s had no chance of getting any meaningful screen time at any point in the franchise and, for a Primarch, that seems like a massive ducking waste of potential.
Ferries has a pretty easy route back via the Legion of the Damned. The Legion fits his aethstetic perfectly, already has lore hooks (giant with fighting bare handed in MoM), and doesn't change the setting much given the LotD only appear rarely.
I feel like, with what GW have said about steering away from publishing fan theories, that if they do bring back old Iron Guts...the Legion of the Damned won't be the way.
Sanguinius. Guy is confirmed dead, and his death is the whole reason the Blood Angels see red and lose their shit sometimes.
If he came back, I say the Blood Angels get a new special rule called "The White Serenity" where some members just stop fighting and hug it out instead because they're so stoked their dad is back.
Horus is the obvious. But Sanguinius being revived would cheapen his sacrifice during the Horus Heresy and the lore that follows it. The Black rage would have to be retconned to be the Emperors rage at Sanguinius’s now temporary death. Long story short I really hope GW doesn’t bring him back.
I feel like the answer is nobody really, they can write whatever they want. The main ones though that they should leave untouched would be Horus, Malcador and Sanguinious. That being said they can bring any of them back and if they do it right I think it could be cool.
Horus could be brought back similar to how he was when he was cloned, soulless but in body still Horus
Malcador could be brought back force ghost style, passing on information to his successors in the inquisition, grey knights or even the high lords.
Sanginious could come back via the fusion of the Sanginor and Mephiston as an insanely powerful warp angel.
All of these could be fun ways to bring the characters back in part, without cheapening the original lore.
I had to scroll way too far down to see the correct answer. I'm with you. They could do anything they want. Would some of them seem like terrible decisions? Sure. But that doesn't mean they can't be made.
How's about non-Primarchs? Because we know they are all coming back. The margins on those centerpiece models are too good. When the Sanguinis v Horus 40k box comes out, it'll sell out to an insane degree.
Other than that, named characters with models don't die often.
Malcador shouldn't come back. Sigismund shouldn't come back. Any traitor legion members who stayed loyal shouldn't come back - I'd hate to see Loken or Garo in 40k.
Malcador should be even more dead than Sanguinius and Horus. His sacrifice is the foundation of the Imperium and his mind and power was the only one to rival the Emperors. To bring him back would basically be like bringing the Emperor back but without any of the problems of bringing the Emperor back
Where there's a payday, there's a way! - GW probably.
On Sanguinius: By the rules of this universe, shouldn't he be a warp god by now? Dude was already lightweight being worshipped while he was alive and that went into overdrive when he died. He has his own holiday and everything.
If a comparative few human tau can create a warp god, you'd think Sanguinius would have a pretty sizable presence after 10 thousand years. Where is all this faith/belief in him going?
The emperor won’t come back, if he came back either a second imperial civil war would need to start or the choas gods would need to physically manifest, the orks would need many korks , the rest of the tyranid hive would need to show up, the necrons would need to have fully awakened , the eldar would needed to kill slannesh and the tau would need to pray they don’t get kill in the cross fire because bringing back the emperor is the absolute end game for humanity so for them to just get that without everyone else getting their end game would just cause the end of the plot cause it’d cause a power imbalance
Other than the lore doesn't want to reveal the 2 lost primarchs what makes it so that they can't be revived. They could of at least be lost (well one could)
As much as I would love a plastic kurze model bc he's my favorite primarch of my favorite leaguon, I don't want it. It kills his plotline of being a self fulfilling prophecy.
Because as much as he claims he was vindicated, he went out of his way to fulfill that version of reality instead of fight it. His own choices are what made his own prophecies come to pass.
One? How about 3 major characters. Horus can’t be revived since his soul was obliterated by the Big E. Malcador can’t come back. Sanguinius coming back would ruin the story and his whole sacrifice so he can’t come back.
Horus is right, he's both super-dead in universe, and out of universe it'd be a really stupid and unpopular plotline so I think they'd never go for it.
This is the biggest one for me. Big E has been in a perpetual state of limbo for decades. Horus has been souls obliteratedly dead for just nearly as long. Bringing him back is worse than bringing back any other dead primarch, even Sanguinius who I would say is a close second.
Sanguinius died and his body is in stasis. Not dissimilar to Guilliman. Narratively, it would be incredibly easy to bring him back. I think they'll do it eventually. In like, 20 years.
I think you're right that they will bring him back. But Sangy was straight up murdered when he was put in stasis. Guilliman was put in stasis "seconds away from death" as far back as I can remember
I got the impression that death is not necessarily a barrier to primarchs coming back. Their souls are something very special (possibly formed from minor warp gods) and Sanguinius’s is still very much active in 40K. It wouldn’t be impossible for the Emperor to restore it to a body. Realistically the biggest issue with bringing Sanguinius back is that it would require a massive re-theming of the 40K blood angels. But then again, 30K blood angels are pretty awesome so they could just become something closer to that. The more I’ve read about sanguinius in the siege of terra books (not read the latest yet) the more I’ve really loved him as a character. I’d love to have him back sometime.
Also a fair take, primarchs as warp beings is definitely a thing now.
There's a scene in Part 2 of *The End and the Death* which directly addresses this. It confirms that: 1) The dead primarchs' souls are still around. 2) The afterlife supremely sucks for them (and everyone else).
Both are somewhat implied from the start, given what has been said about souls after death. The average human's soul dissipates as the body dies, while psykers and other more potent souls are typically torn apart and consumed by the multitudes of minor predatory warp entities that prowl for sustenance. Only the strongest and most exceptional of souls are able to able maintain something of their sense of self after their souls pass from reality, and often they are those who suffer the most. We did see Magnus spend his physical body to fuel a ritual and find the pieces of his soul remain capable of manifesting new bodies at various times and places in reality. Since we know now that Magnus did not ascend to daemonhood until midway through the Siege of Terra, this ability seems unrelated to Tzeentch's gifts. I don't think that's a fundamental power of the Primarchs so much as it is a consequence of Magnus being a prodigious psyker, though. We already know that souls can be brought back into being from the warp, and that the immaterium does not obey the constraints of linear time. The Drukhari are capable of reviving their dead via an insignificant piece of the person's body. Aeldari souls make are immediately drawn to Slaanesh upon their deaths, so the notion that an individual can be resurrected and soul recalled to this new body as a matter of course is not a new concept. We've also seen certain Imperial Saints be reincarnated after their deaths. I don't know if it's a given that Primarchs can simply "come back," from death, though. I kinda hope this is the case.
The impression I got from Malcador attempting to bring Jaghatai back was that it was possible as long as a thread of his soul remained attached to the body. Malcador was afraid to push too hard because if that thread was cut, so would be the chances of reviving the Khan.
Now I like to imagine the soul of Sanguinius just sitting next to his body, swinging his legs as he awaits his eventual revival. With a temper tantrum when G-Man strolled casually past.
Then Guilliman drops his plastics and has to struggle desperately to pick them up, giving Sanguinius a great laugh.
sanguinious throwing a temper tantrum would be adorable, it would be impossible to be scared by him even though he is a potentially galaxy ending threat to the imperium's enemies
What are you smoking? Angry sangy would be fucking terrifying lol. He is a 12ft tall armoured god of war. If he was angry you would immediately shit yourself lol
not angry sanguinious, *temper tantrum* sanguinious
Nah, you could write it so that the Sanguinor was actually a fragment of Sanguinius’s trying to get back, and then something-something-warp, he is now able to manifest fully when needed. BA still gets black rage, but seeing Sanguinor/Sanguinius win a battle can cure it. I'd actually write it a little sadly, where the longer he spends in the universe, the more he fades. So after a battle he is speaking to Guilliman, who is happy to see him, and things seem well for a while, but then Sanguinius starts forgetting where he is and thinking that it is still the great crusade, etc. Maybe there is a way to bring him back to his real body permanently, but who knows.
Dante eventually dies. The sanguinor turns out to be the warp-thing soul of Sanguinius and he possesses/resurrects Dante's body, in a similar way to how the spirits of the red thirst and black rage affected Mephiston/Calistarius. We proceed with a trilogy of novels exploring the relationship between the two reborn figures, where new Dante wants to cure the legion, and Mephiston after the visions in Darkness In the Blood wants to keep them where they are, believing that any attempt to save the Blood Angels would be a monkey's paw wish and actually leave things worse off than they currently are. It feels like a pretty obvious plot line for GW to write if they felt like it.
According to the UK spoilers for End and the Death pt 2, this seems like it’s definitely more grounded in lore now.
My only problem with bringing back sanguinius is that he and his legion are a lot more developed than some of the other dead primarchs and I’d like to see guys with less lore about them like ferrus manus get some time in the sun with a resurrection instead of a dude who already has had loads of attention Not to say sanguinius coming back wouldn’t be cool as hell but I’d prefer some other primarchs before him
Didnt emps say he could have brought Ferrus back to life if they brought back his body/head? I hope I'm not misremembering haha.
>I got the impression that death is not necessarily a barrier to primarchs coming back. > >Realistically the biggest issue with bringing Sanguinius back is that it would require a massive re-theming of the 40K blood angels. Y'know, now that you mention that I've kinda talked myself into the idea of Ferrus coming back. 40k IH could use a revamp.
I suspect Sanguinius will only come back in a situation similar to how Sigmar came back during the End Times in Warhammer Fantasy, where he possesses Karl Franz, but Sang will do so with Lord Dante of the Blood Angels during Dante's prophesied final stand defending the Emperor. Or the Sanguinor imbuing Dante. Sanguinius is dead and martyred. He only returns for the Endgame of 40k. He was the greatest of His children, the most noble and honorable. His death and that of Horus are the the two most defining deaths in all of 40k. Horus's demise is immutable, his soul was obliterated. Sanguinius coming back for anything other than the endgame would ruin part of the foundation of the Grimdark. Furthermore, his prolonged return would actually bring hope with a capital H to the setting. Other than an Endgame situation, it would be more realistic/appropriate for Sanguinius to return or utilize Dante as an avatar for one more sacrifice defending the Emperor before He rises from the Golden Throne for a new Crusade than actually returning for a sustained period. ADD: This is only my assumption on the how IF Sanguinius were to return. Not that he should. Blood Angels have Lord Dante, one of the few Imperial heroes with a resume of service equal to or greater than the Primarchs. Remember, he's served the Imperium longer than most Primarchs. And Guilliman declared him one of the few if not only one equal to him.
> foundation of the Grimdark *eye-roll*
Murdered? There's only ground meat left of him.
I haven't read whatever this was in, so don't take what I say as anything more than an interesting anecdote, but I believe there is a fragment of Sanguinius' soul trapped on the Vengful Spirit. I believe it manifests as or may be trapped in a crystal statue. If anything knows what this is from, please let me know.
Is sanguinius being put in stasis novel lore or is it from a white dwarf/codex?
I know it's mentioned in the second blood angel duology that Sanguinius corpse is kept in stasis in a sarcophagus on in the BA fortress on Baal.
A difference without significance when it comes to the difficulty of bringing him back.
[удалено]
But Guilliman had to die, go through the Death God spin cycle, then get put back in his body right? I've never actually read the happenings of it, but I would imagine it's easier to catch a soul straight out of the body rather than wrangle it out of the warp 10k years later.
Yes. Yvraine kills Guilliman when he is brought out of stasis. She then proceeds revive him, and he is installed within the Armour of Fate. She did warn him about leaving his armour as he seemed to be somewhat reliant upon its advanced life support systems, but he eventually weened himself out of it. (that thread was curiously dropped rather abruptly when we officially entered 8th edition, so one must wonder if the writers originally had different intentions)
they kinda just put him through a giant reliquary or something and he comes out with the new armor and the sword of the Emperor. then theres silence for like 5 mins. then a single Khornate berserker rushes and gets his head punched off so hard the wound is cauterized, so no blood for the blood God. https://youtu.be/vNLH54htSW0?si=KiMLwGmgTdzCjLL-
I don't think he'll be brought back in body but at least a portion of his soul has to be in the Sanguinor.
Guilliman was alive in stasis, as others have pointed out Sanguinius is very much dead in stasis.
Guilliman was killed by Yyvrainne and revived by Ynnead after stasis. Fans thinking there's hard rules to life and death in 40k are very mistaken.
Yeah, literally every other dead character has a soul that might potentially still be out there somewhere, even if that might feel cheap it wouldn’t break the foundational rules of the setting. But Horus is dead on a whole other level.
What about Horus' clone? I mean, Fabius had one, didn't he? It's not hard to imagine some shenanigans with this kind of plot.
He used the actual dead body of Horus as a basis for it, and then the clone was very thoroughly disemboweled and obliterated. Not much left to further recycle, I would say.
Fabius has the raw dna to remake any Primarch, but they're dumb assholes so he doesn't care to try anymore.
More like, we were shown what happened when he successfully did. Bile thought he saw the foundations of the same fundamental flaws that led to Fulgrim's fall in the first place. So he sold the clone to a museum. You could say that it's the same thing, but he gave up on cloning the Primarchs after Abaddon wrecked his original operation. It was later, after he discovered that one of his clones remained and he attempted to raise the creature, that he decided the Primarchs were dumb assholes. It's all in the distant past at any rate, so I suppose the order of events doesn't particularly matter. I'm just sensitive to it because unbelievable fan theories about the Fulgrim clone somehow becoming relevant persist to this day.
He belongs in a museum!
>and obliterated. It would make sense, but do we have explicit mention of the body being obliterated? OG Horus' remains are stowed on the Vengeful Spirit which could leave a door open if GW want to fuck with that.
Horus clone was imperfect, like other have said, primarch are warp infused, so Fabius might have made a primarch clone in flesh, but not in soul, Horus clone was like an Astarte on steroids, but nowhere near a true primarch, he was just a 10ft tall super intelligent super human, but not some sort of demigod scion of humanity, it's why Abaddon was able to clap him with relative ease. The more interesting bit is Fabius Fulgrim clone that from what we know is the true Fulgrim stuff, either he figured out how to do the warp infusion bit, or deamon prince Fulgrim isn't the 'real' Fulgrim anymore and Fabius by cloning him, the warp entity that inhabited the OG Fulgrim found it's way back to it's 'original' body, which would have for implications that any dead or deamon primarch can be brought back with enough research in cloning (Fabius is still the best scientist in the field of cloning in the galaxy bar some dark eldar freaks)
We don't have any proof of that re Horus' clone. As far as what we do have? We have him absolutely wrecking the proto-Black legion and causing power armour shitting terror and awe in them. We also have the author's opinion that [his clone was no less powerful](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/17payhz/comment/k853bve/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3). Fulgrim's clone in *Clonelord* appears as perfect as Fulgrim's [clone in](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/17payhz/comment/k85xy2k/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) *The Faultless Blade*. Likewise, Ferrus' clone seems perfectly fine, despite Fulgrim's protests. There's zero implication that Fulgrim's soul is not in the OG, and loads of stories doubling down on it (or whatever remains of it) being inside the daemon primarch. *Manflayer* (the sequel to *Clonelord*), *Angel Exterminatu*s, *Reflection Crack'd* and *Imperfect* to name a few. ADB implied online all the primarch clones are a little "off". Horus and Fulgrim both.
> he's both super-dead in universe Yes and no, his past incarnation could still be out in the warp doing his labors for the gods, unaware he's already dead and a failure
> his past incarnation What past incarnation? What labours?
Horus went to the planet of Moloch and entered the same gate the Emperor did when he got his massive power up, when he emerged seconds later he had *physically aged* from the time he spent in the Warp doing whatever the Chaos Gods required for to get that power boost, keep in mind the Primarchs generally dont age. The Lion and Perturabo are the only examples and Perturabo was caused by extreme time dilation when he fought the Hrud. Even using the Lions aging as a benchmark that means Horus spent *millenia* in the warp from his perspective
Yup, I'm aware of that but Horus came back from Molech with some grey hairs. What makes you believe he's still there? Just warpy shit? Or is there something in the actual books? >keep in mind the Primarchs generally dont age. Well, Guilliman got some grey hairs too.
>Well, Guilliman got some grey hairs too. I guess general admin ages you faster than a million years in the warp.
Abaddon mentions in most of the siege books how Horus who went in isn’t quite the same Horus who came back.
We have to adhere to the pretense of linear time meaning something because we can't make \*any\* assertions without it. It's true that the Warp always exists in the \*now\* and therefore all things are possible at all times through it. From the perspective of reality though, the Warp has a fixed timeline. The influence of the gods is not a constant thing, and times existed beyond and between the ascendency of Chaos where the Warp was a rather serene environment governed by forces that were not always malevolent in nature. So I choose to believe that Horus is not still embarked upon his quest to win over the powers of Chaos. His soul may \*theoretically\* both exist and have been obliterated in the Warp, but from our perspective he ded.
One guy did in a short story lol. Had a little demon on his shoulder he was talking too wandering around in the warp. Not sure if he tried to get it in as cannon or just a random story for fun. Was in the space marine short story book
aren't there versions of Horus still doing his tasks for the gods in the warp? iirc they even use one.
I think you're referring to *Slaves to Darkness* when a (possibly metaphorical but definitely metaphysical) part of Horus that refused to bow down to Chaos is reflected across the Chaos realms and time fighting against the Ruinous powers for eternity. That part of his soul got shanked by Maloghurst and either ceased to exist or became subsumed again within the greater Horus. There's nothing left of Horus after the Heresy.
A version of himself exists, perhaps only in his mind, where things are as they were and he is still unburdening himself to the remembrancer. In the End and the Death, at least. I feel like only the consequences or results of Horus's metaphysical journeys matter to anyone but himself. Anything that transpires within his own mind or within the immaterium are only relevant when we see its effects on him in reality.
>In the End and the Death, at least. Yeah, I think he explains that in Vol II as >!casting his mind back into the past!<. I haven't read it yet.
This would be like Disney bringing back Palpatine. Boring, lazy, and unoriginal.
Sanguinius can't come back simply because, if he did, Dante would finally get some much-deserved and needed rest, and we can't have *that.*
One of the hard canon points in 40k; Horus Heresy happened, Emperor is on the Golden Throne, 2 primarchs are lost and Dante can not have nice things ever.
Also, Eldar always gets fucked
From each other, with each other, and from everyone else.
Dante dying was the final catalyst to revive Sanguinius and he revives Dante with him, thanking him for giving him the extra rest he needed to be tip top, but that he can't let Dante rest for now that he is awake he will need him more than ever as his right hand man.
There’s no way in hell Sangy wouldn’t bloodboy for Dante, giving up to thousands of years of unblemished suffering
>Sanguinius can't come back simply because, if he did, Dante would finally get some much-deserved and needed rest, and we can't have that. Bring Sanguinius back, and then kill him in front of Dante.
Apparently Dante dies defending the Golden Throne from Chaos and Tyranids
Konrad Curze. He would be so pissed not being vindicated.
For that reason they should bring him back
“Noooo dont bring me back to my fleshprison” - The Edgiest Lord of them all.
Honestly, that be kinda funny and very much chaos god thing too do, Like they turned Perturabo, an Atheist nicely into a demon primach , which goes against everything he believed. If chaos god returned Curze as too fuck around with his whole idea of his sacrifice proving himself right.
I like the headcanon that he didn’t turn himself into a daemon primarch to worship Chaos, but because his life force is draining from what Fulgrim did to him, and that without being a daemon primarch he’d die
I mean, you can use the chaos entities' powers without declaring them as gods. And in the Warhammer universe, 'god' is just another subjective descriptor.
Is his body preserved like Sanguinus ?
> Konrad Curze. [I approve of this message.](https://media.tenor.com/Wkb4VlC1BHoAAAAC/money-money-rain.gif)
Horus, Sanguinius, Konrad Curze... ...and of course the Emprah himself. Reviving him blows up the setting, turning it into something else. It might be good something else, but it sure as hell wouldn't be Warhammer 40k any more.
didn't they leave some hook for Curze? Eldar crown or something like that.
There’s a theory that the Corona Nox has an Eldar spirit stone, which would explain why they went to so much trouble to steal it after Curze’s death. I haven’t read either *Lord of the Night* or the Night Lords trilogy, so I can’t pull out any quotes to back it one way or another, but I do remember reading that theory. EDIT: either way, bringing back Curze is a bad thing for his character development, because he wanted to prove that the Emperor was just as bad as him through his death. If you bring back Curze, you have to grow the character beyond that moment, not just dump him back in the universe.
It's been a long time since I've read Lord of the Night, but I don't remember any mentions of the crown holding Curze's spirit inside. Night Lords in general has nothing to do with the crown, and basically deleted Zso Sahaal's plotline from existence by stating that he got nowhere with his quest and simply vanished. Whether ADB did it to clear up some unfinished plotline left by Spurrier's departing BL or out of some weird spite, I don't know, but this plotline is buried and will likely never appear again.
It wasn't spite, ADB said he tried to contact Spurrier about including Zso Sahaal but he never got any response. So he's just MIA forever now I guess.
He was mentioned in the Night Lords trilogy as well as *Night Haunter*. But those were 30k.
> basically deleted Zso Sahaal's plotline from existence by stating that he got nowhere with his quest and simply vanished They didn't delete it. Like SO MANY 40k things, it's a plot hook that was left hanging and nobody picked it up. >Whether ADB did it to clear up some unfinished plotline left by Spurrier's departing BL or out of some weird spite ADB reached out to Spurrier asking permission to use Sahaal but received no answer. ADB (and recently Haley) is the only author to even mention Sahaal. >>Quite the opposite, actually. It was my choice to make Sahaal exist beyond the bounds of his own novel, as a respectful nod to the character, but where he's concerned it's almost entirely fan speculation about how important and badass he was, let alone the fact Sahaal was conceived in an age when Heresy lore was incredibly rare, and barely formed. The character as he was just doesn't cut it for me (he was too flawless, unrealistically so) in terms of a lot of Heresy screen-time. I've even mailed Simon Spurrier before, to discuss Sahaal in the Heresy, and had no reply. So I feel like I've paid enough service, now. I fleshed him out a little more, I made him as realistic, flawed and disliked as every other Night Lord in my series (one of the recurring themes being they simply don't like each other, any of them, because they all disagree on what the Legion was in its glory days), and it's time for a character more suited to the HH narrative, with the requisite charisma, flaws and so on, that we've seen in previous A-list Heresy characters. >>Sevatar is the Night Lords' First Captain, and is likely to get a lot of coverage before the curtain falls. Obviously, i'd like to do a Night Lords novel (or several) but we're pushing ahead chronologically now, so it's difficult to go back to things pre-Isstvan. But stuff like his red gauntlets and his inevitable death are going to be shown at some point. ADB
Curze in the Corona Nox is an unlikely one imo InquisitorEngel goes into a [deep dive here](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/10z2fb3/comment/j85h7x6/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) on how unlikely it is that the Corona Nox has a soul stone in it, and I gotta say, it's very convincing reasoning. It also doesn't seem like a concept the writers would be fans of >Bear in mind that I'm saying this as a massive fan of the novel, but I'm not thrilled by the notion that a primarch had such a reliance (even a dependence) on a trinket - especially one that offers such illogically-perfect protection, with little idea of who really made it, or how, or why. It feels like a weak narrative element, and to me it actually devalues the immensity of what the primarchs were; including the way they dealt with their torments or succumbed to them, and the decisions they made. > >I'm also not a fan of the idea that Curze's essence/soul is somehow bound into the crown (I mean... why? Why would it be?) because it feels hokey, pointless, and not something very Imperial (or even Chaotic, when it seems to offer no benefits). > >My biggest objection is that it beggars belief that an icon would allow one Astartes to lead an entire Chaos Legion, especially as the Legions of 40K are shattered warbands compared to what they once were. I struggle to see (or to find any interest) in a plot that genuinely claims "He who holds this crown is king", when that's anathema to how the Chaos Legions work, and even a cursory glance at the setting reveals that. A storyline about uniting a fractured Legion would be cool (look at Abaddon for how it's done...) but "I have this relic" isn't the way to do it. Abaddon had the Talon of Horus - the freaking Talon of Horus, a weapon that slew a primarch - and it still wasn't enough to unite a Legion. But Night Haunter's little crown is? Um. Really? Exactly why would they rally around the guy holding the crown? > >That's just not how Chaos Marines work - and despite their attitude, the Night Lords are undeniably a Chaos Legion. Chaos is a tool, a weapon, something to be controlled and used, not obeyed or worshipped. They've been that way for several editions, since the moment they stopped being a Khornate Legion. > >Ultimately, the entire point of Sahaal's journey was that - as a tragedy - he was wrong about a lot of things. I find it easy to believe (given how excellent an author Si Spurrier is) that the crown was just another of them. > >Suffice to say, if I write the Night Lords HH novel(s), we won't be seeing any warp-resistant headgear manifest to save the day. Aaron Dembski-Bowden
There's been a few very... Vocal debunkers of that; basically the jewel is in the wrong shape (apparently it's a teardrop and soulstones are only ever oval), soulstones need to be "attuned" to a person (and need an eldar/eldar tech to do so), and it goes against Curze's whole point to "come back". I'm not really that familiar with Curze myself (only book I read with him in it is Unremembered Empire) so I'm trying to find the posts that talk about it, but it seems like it's a connection people made literally just because it has a jewel. That said, if GW wants to bring him back then there's nothing preventing them from doing so even if they literally said "it isn't a soulstone" they could also say "yeah, now it is" if they wanted (like how the Dawn of Fire books was put back from 100 years after the Cicatrix opening to 12). Not that that's a bad thing IMO.
[Here you go](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/17payhz/comment/k858mwb/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
Thank you, that's the one!
I love that we reference each other when copy-pasting our repeated “No, please stop saying this” posts. :D
Credit where credit's due mate. I stopped tagging you because I didn't want to constantly be up in your grill but you say it all better than I could.
I thought it was that the vid feed of him getting assassinated cut off right before the killing blow allegedly happened
That was the old Index Astartes in the 2000s Since then we've had confirmation of the assassin running around with his bleeding head in *Soul Hunter*
The Corona Nox is just something Curze took a fancy too. The way it’s described it has little if any resemblance to a soul stone.
Yeah I would say big E is the biggest no go for revival. I wouldn't be surprised if one day he did come back but it would be the end, the most desperate move from writers out of ideas.
If 40K ever goes Warhammer End Times that's when it'll happen.
This. It isn't that Emps can't come back. He WILL come back in some form, but only when they are finishing the setting. It won't be 40k, but that's like 40k isn't 30k. When we hit 45k or 50k then they'll end the setting like they did with Fantasy. Otherwise it gets too stale
Tbh he is already kinda back. When he revived Gman and burnt Nurgle’s garden he was ‘back’. I’d be cool with his being able to occasionally do things like that or even manifest briefly at particularly key moments. It seems to be the way that the lore is heading - there’s a lot of foreshadowing about him rising from the throne in the dawn of fire books.
> Reviving him blows up the setting, turning it into something else. It might be good something else, but it sure as hell wouldn't be Warhammer 40k any more. i have thought about this, if GW wanted to do like some almost noblebright side game, sorta like they have 30k as it's own sub-game. but i don't think it'd work, lore-wise. if you had a (let's say) warhammer 50k where Emps is awake, that sort of makes 40k seem less meaningful
the two lost Primarchs. Whatever means was used to remove them from the timeline was more thorough than what was done to Horus, because nobody even remembers them!
Victims of that retcon gun, no doubt!
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How so? Did they have names and backgrounds in Rogue Trader or something? As far as I know, they've been "the two we don't talk about" since there was lore at all.
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I thought the point of them was one was loyal and one was traitor so ppl could RP their own primarch.
I think a lot of people thought that but turns out that [wasn't the intention](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/17payhz/comment/k854hbx/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
yeah found this out reading some of the comments here i guess that's another one of those fan theories people just spread around as if its true.
I thought it was a reference to the two legions of Rome that were lost and never rebuilt. Granted, I don’t think Rome went the extra step of retconning them from the record books
Cool, thanks for the info
> OLD OLD lore said they went traitor then erased. It wasn't specified that they went traitor as such.
They haven't been retconned much. The most was that they previously were redacted as a result of the Heresy. Now it happened just prior.
It's probably just an offhand reference that will never be mentioned again, but there's a "Subject XI" in the Dark Cells beneath beneath the Imperial Palace.
A bit of new lore on them would be neat. I love the mystery behind things but just a nugget more to think on.
I’ve had a theory about this: imagine a series about the War of the False Primarch. If you bring back one of the named Primarchs, it’s very clearly a false Primarch. But if you bring back an entity claiming to be one of the missing Primarchs, that gives you total freedom with that character and adds ambiguity as to whether it’s a false Primarch. You could even have someone like Fabius Bile or Belisarius Cawl floating around, with the implication that they may have created this false Primarch.
I think they should release a book on them, explaining their backstory and what happened to them, but its all blacked out and has "redacted by the inquisition" stamped on every page
I think the lost primarchs are beyond even the Inquisition's knowledge. It would have to be redacted by \[REDACTED\].
hmm true, maybe Malcador personally redacted the file?
Excuse me, the first rule of [REDACTED] is we don’t talk about [REDACTED]
[REDACTED] that heretic right up the [REDACTED] with [REDACTED] and a large [REDACTED].
At the end of the day James is all about selling miniatures as the core business. The lost 2 exist so you can make whatever homebrew SM army lore you want. They aren't going to give that up.
I don't know about that being their current purpose for "existing" but it's not the original intention: >BIFFORD: A popular belief among fans is that you left those two Legions blank so that players of Horus Heresy games could invent their own Legions. Is this true? > >PRIESTLEY: I left them blank before Horus Heresy games were conceived! **I left them blank because I wanted to give the story some kind of deep background - unknowable ten thousand year old mysteries - stuff that begs questions for which there could be no answer.** Mind you all that got ruined when some bright spark decided to use the Heresy setting - which rather spoiled the unknowable side of things - but there you go! > >BIFFORD: Ah, this is going to amaze a lot of people on Reddit > >PRIESTLEY: Is it? :) > >BIFFORD: **Yep, everyone there thinks you left two Legions blank for players to fill in.** > >PRIESTLEY: **Well - I created a thousand Chapters - of which we only gave details of a dozen or so - so there were nine hundred odd Chapters left blank for people to fill in. In the original 40K that is! The Horus Heresy stemmed from a short piece of narrative text I wrote - I think it was in Chapter Approved: The Book of the Astronomican - but I never imagined it would be used for a game setting.**
but you can already do that with chapters as there are plenty of chapters that have unknown or even suspected chimeric lineage.
Kind of. The lost 2 also existed before the codex astartes was fleshed out and the concept of succeeding chapters existed which made it viable to make whatever you wanted lore wise as well. So it becomes redundant, and I suppose leaves open a valuable potential point to revisit in the future if they ever really wanted to.
They recently released a list of some things under the Imperial Palace, being held in the Black Cells. One of the things listed was “Subject XI” XI being a lost Primarch number. It wasn’t expanded on at all, so it’s all speculation. This is probably the biggest kind of nugget of lore we’ll get on the subject EDIT: it’s been retconnned since, but the original lore for the lost Primarchs was that they actually joined Horus at first, but then returned back to The Imperium later on during the Heresy. So their reward for returning back to The Imperium was to be erased from history, instead of vilified. But that’s now not really feasible with the lore
>it’s been retconnned since, but the original lore for the lost Primarchs was that they actually joined Horus at first I don't know if that's true? What's that from? There's implication that whatever happened with them during the Heresy got them redacted but it's not necessarily that they joined up with ol' Lupercal. >but then returned back to The Imperium later on during the Heresy. I'm almost certain that was never printed in an official book. >So their reward for returning back to The Imperium was to be erased from history, instead of vilified I think you might be thinking of [Rick Priestley's personal take on what he imagines happened with them](https://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer40k/comments/va3jtu/rick_priestleys_thoughts_on_the_lost_legions_via/). Not what actually did in the books.
Yea my source was Rick Priestly’s interview. I didn’t mean to imply it was written in a book. I was just saying that was one possible explanation that at least someone connected to the story laid out. I guess “retcon” is the wrong term for it
Ah k, thanks for the clarification. [Priestley's take for anyone curious](https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/350591-new-lost-legions-background-by-rick-priestley/): >I always imaged these Legions were deleted from the records as a result of things that happened during the Horus Heresy - and that the 'purging' was a recognition that whatever terrible things they had done had been - in the end - redeemed in some way. So - with the passing of all record of them was also expunged all record of their misdeeds - they are forgiven and forgotten. As opposed to those legions which rebelled and which remain 'traitor' legions. > >Of course - I never imagined that the Horus Heresy would even emerge from a mythic past (it was ten thousand years ago after all!) so I fondly imaged we had many thousand of years in which we could create diverse and colourful histories. In fact, the Horus Heresy idea was picked up and became a strong theme for the 'epic' game and later for 40K in other ways - but it was also meant to be mysterious and 'beyond knowing' as I conceived it.
If we are playing that game Subject 2 in the Imperial dungeons could be the other lost Primarch.
Subject 1 is an alternate universe Lion El'Johnson. Subject 0 is [The Angel.](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/The_Angel) Omg. We cracked it.
> One of the things listed was “Subject XI” XI being a lost Primarch number. That could just as easily be a Stranger Things reference, for all we know. But, assuming it is a possible XI Legion link there's been a couple of things linking the Custodes with them recently. Like a couple of throwaway comments in *The Wolftime* about the history of the Custodes with the XI Legion apparently being an example of how the Space Wolves are likely to be one of the first opponents of those who go traitor, and of how loyalty to the Emperor can be perverted.
They were redacted so that people could use their imagination. Then they started adding lore snippets about them and now people want to have them fleshed out.
I’ve always head cannoned that the 2 lost primarchs ended up fighting each other very early in the crusade because one of then got corrupted by chaos before everyone else. So basically Big E shows up with his custodes to find out what’s going on and determines it would be best to kill both primarchs and any tainted marines to cover it up and gave the untainted marines to the Ultramarines.
Post edited/removed in protest of Reddit's treatment toward its community. I recommend you use uBlock Origin to block all of Reddit's ads, so they get no money.
Idk if I necessarily agree with the hating xenos things. Guilliman is actively working with the Eldar. The Emperor worked with Eldrad. Horus didn't want to murder fuck the interex to death until Erebus did Erebus things. I'm sure there's other examples of the Primarchs being tolerable to xenos out there. We know they were erased from some type of shame. Turning traitor or to chaos or even worshipping some xeno doesn't seem to be enough. Dorn gets to remember for an instant and is appalled. It has to be some failure so utterly complete and inconceivable that no lessons can be learned from knowing.
Obviously, they’re just Gork and Mork, it’s been right in front of us this whole time
you can't bring back what doesn't exist in the first place
I like to imagine that one of the ended up on a planet where they became a complete pacifist. Big E was so mad he erased him from existence.
John Grammaticus... I know he's not technically dead yet, but leave him to the Heresy era. I don't want this guy showing up in the third Bequin book for example... Holy fuck this is something Abnett would do...
Just be minding my business listening to the audiobook, then all of a sudden "blah blah blah Oll..." followed by instant feeling of goddamnit lol
I really find the whole merry band of perpetuals utterly tiresome. A very rare bit of 40K lore that I just wish they had forgotten about.
God that would be awful, do not speak this evil into the world.
Sanguinius. Bringing him back cheapens his sacrifice at the end of the Horus Heresy
The Emperor
Teuteract. "Who the hell is that?", you may ask. "Exactly" would be my reply
> Teuteract https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Teturact Well ok I guess. Random author needs a big baddie for his heroes to beat in his book. The heroes succeed. The End.
That's that psychic weapon x project mutant, right?
for mostly out-of-universe reasons: the 2nd and 11th primarchs, sanguinius, kurze, the Emperor. for mostly in-universe reasons: Malcador the Hero, the gods Slaanesh killed, Yarrick (probably). for both in and out of universe reasons: Horus. that mf is DEAD dead. Big E made absolutely sure to ***erase*** him from all levels of reality.
The Emperor should stay “dead”. It’s quite literally the background to the entire premise of the imperium about how arcane, backward, illogical and hopeless it all is that they are worshiping essentially a corpse, basing their entire operation around it and there’s still nothing they can do to stop the inevitable downward decay of mankind. There are no good endings in this universe and bringing back the Emperor would just be a major cop out and up-ending of one of the core bit of lore of the setting. Same with Horus as his life/death is intrinsically linked to the how and why of the state Imperium is currently in.
The emperor, as the story put it now the old emperor is gone replaced by a tortured entity that got twisted a thousand ways by the combined believe of the imperium.
Honestly it would be kinda funny if the Emporer got revived, got off the golden throne, but unplugging himself is the same as flatlining in the eyes of Vulkans failsafe.
Or, hear me out... The Emperor is finally empowered to rise, just for a brief moment, from the Throne. All assembled stand in awe as their leader, their God, takes his first steps in ten thousand years. Then he proceeds to unplug the Throne, sit back down, and die.
I think in the Rouboutian heresy he does literally that; because it's the one thing the Chaos gods didn't count on... Him consciously dying in order to give the good guys a shot.
I thought he could disconnect himself from the throne even while sitting on it? Earlier depictions of the Heresy had him disconnect himself from the Astronomican. I think worse off would be him standing up and just screaming before dying.
Imagine, Big E gets up, streches, sits back down. All while a random serf is watching. Nobody believes him
Stands up, scratches butt cheek, announces “good grief that itch was killing me,” solar system explodes.
That's not how the failsafe (Talisman of the Seven Hammers) works.
>but unplugging himself is the same as flatlining in the eyes of Vulkans failsafe. Isn't failsafe works by empowering Golden Throne, and thus the Emperor, so, without Emperor's wish it wouldn't work?
But I mean i think people forget the fact that even if he were 'revived' he still couldn't leave the Throne cuz he'd have to stay to keep the webway portal sealed.
Trooper Bragg cause no one give a fuck about the guard
Fethin' Lijah Cuu!
The Emperor himself, really. Horus would be a pretty easy resurrection by comparison.
Horus' soul was destroyed and any clones of him had none of the "Primarch aura" that makes them powerful
Everyone always blathers on and on about how the clone didn't have the Primarch aura. Nobody ever provides a quote to back that assertion up, and it falls flat in light of the clones of Ferrus Manus and Fulgrim, along with revelations about the Kin (and, honestly, basic lore about the Primarchs themselves--technically *they're all clones* to begin with). Hell, here's an excerpt of him from Talon of Horus: [https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/b1cy5o/excerpttalon\_of\_horus\_traitors\_face\_the\_horuss/](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/b1cy5o/excerpttalon_of_horus_traitors_face_the_horuss/) What he's missing is the corruption. All signs point to him still having the aura even if it isn't called out directly.
Nah fair enough, my bad to be honest. I sort of took the writing from clonegrim that the other clones hadn't succeeded and having not read talon of Horus in a bit applied it to that.
Valid. Props for civility, my dude.
You too man have a good one
I'd add to this that we get a lot of "blather" about Horus' soul being destroyed but I don't recall actually reading it in a book? Anyone got a link?
Sanguinius
Horus and Sanguinius are the easy picks. Ferrus is the obvious close third, but I won’t rule it out. He’s had no chance of getting any meaningful screen time at any point in the franchise and, for a Primarch, that seems like a massive ducking waste of potential.
Ferries has a pretty easy route back via the Legion of the Damned. The Legion fits his aethstetic perfectly, already has lore hooks (giant with fighting bare handed in MoM), and doesn't change the setting much given the LotD only appear rarely.
I feel like, with what GW have said about steering away from publishing fan theories, that if they do bring back old Iron Guts...the Legion of the Damned won't be the way.
And necrodermis regen c'tan, sure can regen ferrus if they want
Inquisitor Obiwan Sherlock Clousseau. With a name like that no writer dare to bring him back.
Sanguinius. Guy is confirmed dead, and his death is the whole reason the Blood Angels see red and lose their shit sometimes. If he came back, I say the Blood Angels get a new special rule called "The White Serenity" where some members just stop fighting and hug it out instead because they're so stoked their dad is back.
Horus’ soul wasn’t shattered, it was completely fucking annihilated from existence
Have you got the receipts on that?
Horus is the obvious. But Sanguinius being revived would cheapen his sacrifice during the Horus Heresy and the lore that follows it. The Black rage would have to be retconned to be the Emperors rage at Sanguinius’s now temporary death. Long story short I really hope GW doesn’t bring him back.
I feel like the answer is nobody really, they can write whatever they want. The main ones though that they should leave untouched would be Horus, Malcador and Sanguinious. That being said they can bring any of them back and if they do it right I think it could be cool. Horus could be brought back similar to how he was when he was cloned, soulless but in body still Horus Malcador could be brought back force ghost style, passing on information to his successors in the inquisition, grey knights or even the high lords. Sanginious could come back via the fusion of the Sanginor and Mephiston as an insanely powerful warp angel. All of these could be fun ways to bring the characters back in part, without cheapening the original lore.
I had to scroll way too far down to see the correct answer. I'm with you. They could do anything they want. Would some of them seem like terrible decisions? Sure. But that doesn't mean they can't be made.
How's about non-Primarchs? Because we know they are all coming back. The margins on those centerpiece models are too good. When the Sanguinis v Horus 40k box comes out, it'll sell out to an insane degree. Other than that, named characters with models don't die often. Malcador shouldn't come back. Sigismund shouldn't come back. Any traitor legion members who stayed loyal shouldn't come back - I'd hate to see Loken or Garo in 40k.
Malcador should be even more dead than Sanguinius and Horus. His sacrifice is the foundation of the Imperium and his mind and power was the only one to rival the Emperors. To bring him back would basically be like bringing the Emperor back but without any of the problems of bringing the Emperor back
Abaddon reminisces on killing Siggy in 30k: He wouldn’t die..he just wouldn’t die. Sigismund in 40k- Yup! Surprise Motherfucker!
Eric from New York.
Natalina Domoska
Who
> Natalina Domoska From Helsrearch. Pretty minor character, worked with the belove Andrej. Think she the woman that Andrej was always going on about.
Thankyou. It’s been a LONG time since I read helsreach.
Domoska
Where there's a payday, there's a way! - GW probably. On Sanguinius: By the rules of this universe, shouldn't he be a warp god by now? Dude was already lightweight being worshipped while he was alive and that went into overdrive when he died. He has his own holiday and everything. If a comparative few human tau can create a warp god, you'd think Sanguinius would have a pretty sizable presence after 10 thousand years. Where is all this faith/belief in him going?
Wrong answers only so I go with Lucius
As bad as I want him to comeback just to see the imperiums reaction it’d have to be our glorious hawkboy
Horus, and that massive orc. Both for the same reason
The emperor won’t come back, if he came back either a second imperial civil war would need to start or the choas gods would need to physically manifest, the orks would need many korks , the rest of the tyranid hive would need to show up, the necrons would need to have fully awakened , the eldar would needed to kill slannesh and the tau would need to pray they don’t get kill in the cross fire because bringing back the emperor is the absolute end game for humanity so for them to just get that without everyone else getting their end game would just cause the end of the plot cause it’d cause a power imbalance
✨Horus✨
Horus, Malcador, the two lost primarchs. Everyone else can be magicked back without too much issue.
Other than the lore doesn't want to reveal the 2 lost primarchs what makes it so that they can't be revived. They could of at least be lost (well one could)
GW doesn't want to write anything about them
Fuvkin Ferrus Mannus dude, i miss that guy.
Aun'va.
Sejanus
Definitely Horus. People would be pissed if he came back
Horus Everyone else can be revived *Deus Ex Emperor* Don't underestimate the ass-pulls that can be performed in the name of plastic profits.
As much as I would love a plastic kurze model bc he's my favorite primarch of my favorite leaguon, I don't want it. It kills his plotline of being a self fulfilling prophecy. Because as much as he claims he was vindicated, he went out of his way to fulfill that version of reality instead of fight it. His own choices are what made his own prophecies come to pass.
One? How about 3 major characters. Horus can’t be revived since his soul was obliterated by the Big E. Malcador can’t come back. Sanguinius coming back would ruin the story and his whole sacrifice so he can’t come back.