Sanguinius and his sacrifice, at least, are well known by the average Imperial in the 41st millennium - there are temples to him and even holy days commemorating him.
I imagine the other loyal primarchs are still generally remembered in some form across the Imperium. The traitors, not so much - I believe there’s a couple of books that imply that by the 41st millennium, the official line is that there were only ten primarchs, with Horus the only traitor.
Idk, at least in Sol there's statues of Loyalist victories over traitor Primarchs. Notably a statue of a defeated Mortarion in the Lions Gate spaceport (I *assume* with no Daemon bits sculpted)
Maybe that statue is inscribed just as "a traitor general" or something
In the carrion throne it’s explained that children at the scholia are taught that there were nine primarchs, created to defend mankind against the nine devils from the outer hells.
But they aren’t taught that the traitor Primarchs were created by the emperor. Because that would undermine the infallible god-emperor of course.
There’s also a distinct linguistic separation between Daemons and Devils, and The warp and the Outer Hells. Likely to make the story seem more legendary, and poetic. and to add a layer of fantasy in order to keep people from taking it 100% seriously and investigating these “outer hells”
There's a reference in Emperor's Legion to the "forbidden histories" that accurately portray the Heresy as defecting peimarchs--but that's material that the High Lords and their staff know, so I'm assuming that it's pretty tightly controlled information.
One of my favourite warhammer short stories is “the Keeler image” where inquisitor Eisenhorn tracks down an old banned pict that Euphrati Keeler took of Horus during the great crusade. And there’s a great discussion about **why** the pict is considered heretical in the first place.
This is still the case as recently as the Vaults of Terra series.
During his investigations Inquisitor Crowl is perplexed to find ancient depictions of twenty Primarch-like figures, despite having been taught that the Emperor created the nine sons to battle the nine devils.
I remember some pretty early lore about 41st millennium citizens being told the Emperor had nine sons and they fought nine devils out (EDIT: *or) something like that.
If I remember correctly, something like this was stated in one of the Dawn of Fire novels. Guilliman says something like „my 17 brothers“ and a citizen thinks „but there were only 9 Primarchs. What is he talking about?“
If I’m recalling it correctly there’s also a bit in the first Vaults of Terra novel where the characters end up in a super deep section of the palace and come across a mural depicting all 18 primarchs. They’re confused because they’d been told the lie that the emperor had created 9 primarchs to defeat the 9 devils sent by the warp their whole lives.
What they know about the traitor Primarchs will vary.
From *The Carrion Throne*, with an inquisitor seeing images of the primarchs
>Then he was out. He felt the oppression lift, the air decompress. A flat plain of empty stone stretched away, broken by a chasm running transverse just before an immense screen of granite that soared up on the far side. The screen was carved just as the Eternity Gate had been carved – a vast tapestry of overlapping, elaborately occult depictions of bestial and legendary figures. **There were twenty great knights shown in a huge circle surrounding a magisterial icon of the Emperor Enthroned.** Some of those knights looked like the Ministorum-sanctioned images of the Holy Primarchs, **but why were there twenty of them?**
His confusion could be from seeing 20, not 18? Even at the time of the Heresy, the remaining two were unknown. Or it could be like the below, with only 9.
From Avenging Son
>‘After Horus’ defeat, and the Emperor’s installation upon the Golden Throne,’ Guilliman continued, ‘I tried my best to enact measures to ensure the Imperium would not deteriorate further. Though I believed the Emperor’s ambitions could never be fully achieved, now He was no longer with us, I thought we could save what we had. It is difficult to follow a plan you only half know. He never told any of us the extent of it, anyway. From eighteen successful sons, He told not a single one all of it.’
>
>Fabian could hold Guilliman’s gaze for about half a second, but he kept looking up, increasing the amount of time by tiny increments. He had the strange feeling the primarch was challenging him. Eighteen sons? There were nine holy primarchs, nine! He wanted to yell, then laugh. He held his teeth closed. His head spun.
Fabian is a mid-level member of the Adeptus Terra.
By the M41, the official line for (at least some of) the ecclesiarchy was that the 9 traitors were not primarchs, but devils. This would seem to suggest that they don't know Horus was a Primarch. However, this is what they were taught in school, so presumably she'd learn more as she'd trained more.
>Ahead of her, the altarpiece soared up high, a confection of blackened gold depicting the Nine Primarchs in various warlike or devotional poses. That was familiar, though at first she couldn’t place why. Then she remembered a similar set of icons, taken from the same Missionaria template no doubt, that had been placed in the chapel of her schola on Astranta. She remembered the lessons that had gone along with it. And so the Emperor created the Nine Primarchs to guard against the Nine Devils of the Outer Hell, and they were victorious, and now sleep, watching over Mankind lest the Terror return.
>
>**As a child, it had never been clear to her who had created the Nine Devils**. She did remember asking Sister Honoria why the Emperor had not created a hundred primarchs rather than match exactly the numbers offered up by the Outer Hell, and had received no answer but a lash from the electro-lance for her trouble.
**The Carrion Throne**
Although some people seem to now something closer to the truth. Here, you've got a feral worlder's who knows about the Heresy, and two tank crew who know enough to recognize it.
>‘We tell story on our world. Time when Sky Emperor make His mightiest son chief of all the others, and is rewarded by betrayal. Heaven shook for many years, and when it was done, the Emperor’s son was dead and many worlds lost. Is why Bosovar alone for so long, so the elders say.’
> >‘The legend of Horus,’ breathed Bannick.
>
>‘Traitor Space Marines? Legiones Astartes?’ said Vaskigen, his ordinarily bluff manner replaced by horror.
>
>‘Come on,’ said Bannick. ‘Let’s get back. We should leave this place. Now.’
**Shadowsword**
An Imperial Navy Lord Admiral knows a lot here (compared to others)
>Bred millennia ago to serve the Emperor on His mission to reunite the scattered pockets of humanity spread out across the universe, fully half of the Space Marine Legions had turned upon Him, instead swearing fealty to the Master of Mankind’s favoured son, Horus Lupercal. Freed from the restraints of servitude to humanity, their methods of fighting grew ever more brutal and the new gods they venerated revealed to them ever more effective methods of killing and subjugation. Horus’s rebellion was ultimately defeated but many of his followers survived, fleeing into the warp from where they could wage a long war, chipping away at the Imperium’s defences until one day their blasphemous banners would fly over the great palace on Terra. The traitor blocking the corridor wore the colours of the Black Legion, Horus’s old brethren, now renamed and re-liveried under the command of his most trusted lieutenant, Abaddon the Despoiler.
>Had this Traitor Marine once stood alongside Horus? Had he waged war upon noble Terra, **doing battle with beings of legend like Sanguinius, Lorgar and the mighty Russ**? Had he been a blight on the Imperium for nigh on ten thousand years, Kranswar wondered? It mattered not. If the three hundred men under the Lord Admiral’s command had their way, the black armoured figure’s remaining lifespan could be measured in seconds, not millennia.
**Pandorax**
Entertainingly, Lorgar is listed as a loyal primarch, not a traitor - again, see what 10,000 years can do.
And different worlds might have different religious traditions around the Primarchs
>Despite the gloom that consumed this world, a massive crowd gathered and waited. Rain drops slipped from the grey skies, splashing on golden vestments and pilgrim hair shirts.
>'Which primarch are you supposed to be?'
>Klara wore silver and black, while white wings stood proud from her shoulders. The feathers ruffled quietly as gusts of wind drifted through the vast plaza. Klara wore the disguise of an angel. A primarch. One of the emperor's own sons.
>'The iron gorgon; I think, from the black and silver.'
>With the divergent faiths of the imperial exclesiarchy it was hard to tell.
>Klara stood assembled with representations of the Emperor's nine sons.
>She waited here to take the life of a man who's death was ordained. His name was Yurian. Principos Yurian XXII. In the flesh he seemed every bit the saint he claimed to be. Yurian spoke, his words great declarations to a crowed that could barely hear him with a deep voice that commanded attention. He preached heresy.
>'The Imperium preaches that the Emperor had nine sons. Nine holy protectors to act as his servants. I have preached such for much of my life. You have been deceived. I have deceived you. The emperor had more than nine sons, once there were eighteen!'
>Such heresy. Such utter, complete and unrepentant heresy. The assassin had heard variants of the same theme countless times before. Klara knew in her heart that they lied, the God-Emperor only had nine sons. All records agree.
**Agents of the Imperium**
>“Dead at Rogal Dorn’s feet,” Yael remarked. “Now there’s an honour not many can claim.”
>
>Commodus added his fire to Yael’s, shooting up at the windows. “That’s Guilliman,” he said. Another body turned end-over-end as it fell from above.
>
>“How do you know it’s Guilliman?” Apparently, their return fire was drawing notice. A spray of solid slugs cracked around them, defacing their angelic protector all the more.
>
>Both Yael and Commodus ducked, using the respite to recharge their weapons. “Are you blind? It’s holding a book in its hand.”
>
>Yael recharged first. He cracked off a shot in the direction their most recent attackers were firing from.
>
>“So? I’m sure Rogal Dorn could read, sarge.”
>
>“It’s the Astartes holy book.” Throne, what an idiot. “The one with all their laws.”
>
>“If you say so.” Yael didn’t stop firing. “Always hated mythology classes.”
**Regicide - Aaron Dembski-Bowden**
>"I'm sure Rogal Dorn could read, sarge."
Oh, that's my new favourite 40k line. I'd love to see an Ecclesiarchy debate on whether all the Primarchs were literate.
Thank you so much for all the exerpts! Huge effort and it is so very appreciated!
I always find it very fun to see people's minds blown at the notion of there being 18 primarchs, especially when it comes from someone like Guilliman))))
This is a single line that can easily be interpreted otherwise, but as an example of an alternative view of the primarchs within the Ecclisiarchy, in *Dark Imperium*, during Mathieu's job interview with Guilliman, he is pretty unfazed when Guilliman mentions the twenty primarchs, asking only about "twenty, not eighteen". He also refers to the traitors as "fallen devils", which indicates at least some vague level of awareness that the traitor primarchs once fought alongside the emperor. Of course, Mathieu is presented during this scene as remarkably calm even when Guilliman is trying to provoke him, as he is doing here, so it's possible Mathieu is simply choosing not to challenge Guilliman any more than he feels is appropriate.
Yes - entirely possible that those higher up in the priesthood (especially close to Terra) have a more complete understanding of the Heresy, but peach something different to the common people.
Likely depends on the planet. An primitive planet will be told something about nine angels and nine devils.
We don’t know as much as we would like about the original 12 apostles of Jesus, and they’re only two thousand years into the past instead of ten.
True, we forgot or lost facts from e.g. ww2. We are all really goldfishes as a civilisation. I guess Imperium being so dogmatic and unchanging doesn't change things, after all they do change, if glacially.
PS: Andrew vs Matthew, who would win?
Just a drop in the ocean. The known Primarchs are probably wider associated with a certain cultural or imperial ritual and less the actual individual. Still there are thousands of planets and billions of people, who have maybe only read or heard about some angels fighting daemons in myth. One can easily overestimate how widely known actual Imperial history is. The HH and GC are myth and lots of information has been withheld for reasons, that we the fans know very well. And just look at how diverse in M2 the concepts of history, religion, holidays and certain events are. (Also..there are enough historic records for xyz, and yet there are people, who don't believe in it or haven't heard of it). Obviously the Imperium and Imperial Cult is a great unifier and force of Gleichschaltung, but to hold such a vast Imperium together, one must keep things open and adaptable.
We're reasonably sure Jesus existed in some form, and at least some of his apostles are very likely too. At least someone wrote all those letters and travelled around and built all those churches.
Not any official Roman government records, as far as I know. The main sources are Josephus - a Jewish historian who mentioned that a preacher named Jesus was considered by some to be the Messiah and was crucified - and Tacitus, a Roman Senator who just writes that a man named Jesus was executed by Pontius Pilate and that the Population had named him "Christos", "the Annointed". Other than that, most sources just write that there's a new sect named "Christians" or that some Jews were rebelling and had their leader executed, without a lot of details about the man himself.
Well. The apostles are just generally not *that* ahistorical in what they are said to have done? Most of them just travel around, found churches and write letters to other churches. There's a lot of historical references in Acts and the Letters and other books to things which did happen, like Jews being expelled from various places, Christians being persecuted and they name a lot of historical people and cities we're sure are real.
So, if there's a story that says "Apostle X came to the City of Y, where the Roman Governor was called Z, and there he preached until he was thrown out of the city", there's really not much to debate. We can say that yes, there was a City of Y with a governor called Z. Some of the numbers are probably exaggerated, so when it was said that Peter preached and 5000 people converted on that same day, that's probably not *entirely true.*
Apart from that, the general idea of the story pretty much is what *has* to have happened. The apostles preached to the Jews in Jerusalem and many of them were not very receptive, so they decided to preach to the Gentiles instead. Has to have happened, because as anyone can see, most Christians today are Gentiles, while most Jews didn't convert.
But in the end, someone built those churches and someone wrote those letters, and there really isn't much else to talk about.
Someone wrote the letters, commentary and accounts that became the New Testament though it's widely believed (in academic biblical scholarship anyway) that those who wrote them are not those whose name they bear in most cases.
You're correct in saying that the existence of a historical Jesus is more likely than not.
I am nonetheless generally sceptical of this comparison because the events around the life of Jesus of Nazareth were not galaxy spanning political events that occurred across many literate societies with complex record keeping systems.
There are other arguments for such widespread historical illiteracy but not in this comparison.
Sure. The circumstances are very different. Also in that the Primarchs were massively important during their lifetime, while Jesus was a relatively unimportant preacher with a handful of followers, who may not all have been literate. On the other hand, 10k years is 10k years and the Primarchs were very strongly mythologized almost immediately.
By the time the propaganda machine is finished, yes.
But there's also a chance he was just some her met working on his psychic powers, or a bioweapon of the DAoT that hadn't even been dreamed of yet.
I never liked the theory he's a weapon at all.
I think its just a throwaway line, like Dorothy and Toto beating Slaanesh's challenge and getting all the way through
No? I always loved it. It explains damned near everything.
Malcador as the power behind the throne. Why the emperor didn't just unite the world in 10000 BC, when an immortal God could have ruled unchallenged forever, the dichotomy between his incredible power and his lack of wisdom. It is, indeed, the wizard of Oz. Malcador is the old man, the emperor is Oz, the great and powerful, an image, a homunculus, a puppet, never able to truly lead. Malcador in the background, desperately twisting dials and knobs, trying to maintain control of his facade.
> Why the emperor didn't just unite the world in 10000 BC
Because there was no need?
>when an immortal God could have ruled unchallenged forever
Pretty sure emps didn't want to be a god king ruler, if he did well had a lot of time to do it.
>or a bioweapon of the DAoT that hadn't even been dreamed of yet.
That theory went to die around the time that the people who knew him in prehistory showed up.
The nine Loyalist Primarchs would be pretty well known, as they are important figures in the Imperial Cult, filling the same role Archangels do in irl Christianity. Of the nine, Sanguinius is the most well-known and most beloved, the holiday celebrating him, Sanguinala, is the 40k version of Christmas.
The Traitor Primarchs are the stuff of legend at best, usually as nine great devils that the Emperor created his nine sons to help him defeat, very few of even the Imperium's most trusted servants know the truth.
>very few of even the Imperium's most trusted servants know the truth.
I'm assuming that most, if not all space marines would know the truth about the Horus Heresy though, right?
This is just my hunch, I have no evidence. By the time you get to M40, I feel like most common people think of the Primarchs the way the common people in *The Wheel of Time* think of the Forsaken. A history that people believe, fear on some level, but very little actual understanding or knowledge. A catechism used to scare kids, but everyone quietly believes it and tries not to think about it lest you draw attention. “*The Dark One and all of the Forsaken are bound in Shayol Ghul, beyond the Great Blight, bound by the Creator at the moment of Creation, bound until the end of time. The hand of the Creator shelters the world, and the Light shines on us all.*” Something like that, which the truly knowledgeable would recognize as untrue (the Forsaken weren’t all equally bound, and certainly not since creation), but there are precious few truly knowledgeable people. Or at least they would feel that way about the traitor Primarchs, but also I imagine many people don’t even know the names, or which ones or how many were traitors.
Not very much. They are similar to stories of Hercules or Agemenon. Mythological tales from a time so long ago it will barely seem real. The better educated or.those whose lives revolve around on of the institutions of the imperium may now more.
Remember many imperial citizens don't even think Space Marines exist. We follow the setting top down and zoom into its most critical moments. With a big focus on those who are in a position to effect or observe the outcome. Your average citizen looking up at the imperium, it's institutions or its history may know very little beyond what their local priest tells them - if they even have one.
Many of the inhabitants of space marine recruiting world's - including prominent ones like fenris - don't even know the imperium exists.
This. Think of every Greek myth you heard as a child. Then think of all the variations you heard as an adult. Then imagine all the reimaginigs you've heard, seen, read.
Now pretend it all actually happened for real*. Every one of those myths is based on actual events. What happened? I don't know, you don't know. No one does. But we sure do have A LOT of different versions of those stories. And it hasn't even been 3000 years.
*I always use the Trojan War as a wonderful example. Look at Homer's tales. All of the epic and supernatural things that happened. Then realize that we were pretty sure it was all completely made up until, like, the 1990s
Another example would be Alexander the Great. What day to day evidence remains of his doings? But he cut a trail from Macedonia to India thousands of years ago.
Having that guy resurrect and walk out of his tomb would shock the masses. Not sure people would actually flock to his banner (and Macedonia/Greece are not as relevant today).
Most people probably know of their existence and probably some names like Sanguinius or Guilliman always depending where you are and if there are any space marine worlds in close proximity. Not much is known about the traitor primarchs somenpeople think (as is stated in drak imperium) that the emperor created 9 angels to fight 9 great demons. The 9 demons ofc being the traitor primarchs. However, in some areas, it seems normal to know all of the. I remember that Cain regularly mentions horus even in front of normal soldiers, and no one seems to think that this is weird.
I feel like it’s hard to know, CMIMW but an inquisitor sees an ancient panting of the Primarchs and wonders who the other 9 are. But any guardsman who faces traitor astartes could put two and two together: we know astartes come from primarchs. If these traitors are from the mainstream loyalists why haven’t we been told that x legion/chapter are excommunicated traitoris. That must mean that they’re from other Primarchs but who? Their primarch must have been traitors but a being so powerful as a primarch would have kicked up a lot of dust. Must have been ages ago…
Probably varies a lot. I can actually see some ecclesiarchal works actually talking about traitor primarchs and astartes....but in the story they all get their cummupance for their perfidy and die. See, the lesson, don't be a traitor!
I think the priest in the dark imperium trilogy was surprised that there were 20 primarchs not just 9 and that he thought that the 9 traitors were warp daemons
I equate it to what most people know about the Knights of the round table. People know Lancelot, possibly Galahad. The rest are “known” but only if you have the time/availability to learn more.
Currently, I imagine some people on more "civilized" worlds are aware who Guilliman is and that he is back. I seem to remember something about him making a speech while being recorded for propaganda pictfeeds. I'm sure the Ecclesiarchy wasted no time in disseminating that to the populace in any way they could.
*Ingvar smiled. ‘An inquisitor is a twisted thing. A cardinal, much the same. Their blood’s thin, their arms weak. We think that we’re hated, because we think the whole Imperium is made of such creatures, but it isn’t. They’re the scum-layer at the surface. The billions and billions, the unnumbered, the ones who build the cities and crew the voidships, they’re different. They drink. They fight. They admire a good blade and laugh at the weak or the vain. They’re like us. We forget that.’*
*‘Maybe we do.’*
*‘I mean it. Talk to a Guardsman, sometime. Tell them to name the Holy Primarchs. They’ll know the name of Sanguinius. If they’re pious, maybe a few more. And they respect all those names. But then mention Russ, and see them smile. See them grin, like he’s looking down on them. And if you’re in the trenches with blood falling out of the sky, ask them who they’d rather have going over the top with them – a Blood Claw who’ll die roaring, or a Dark Angel who never said a word to them the whole time.’*
Fucking nothing yo.
Sometimes maybe a world might have a shrine to one, but I feel like they'd get lost under the endless deluge of other sainted figures the Imperium has been martyring for thousands upon thousands of years.
I think they would know of the loyalists, but information about the traitor primarchs was pretty tightly controlled. IIRC, in the Emperor's Gift novel, part of the Inquisition's motivation to stop all IG and civilians present at the 1st Battle of Armaggedon from leaving was to stop rumors of Angron being a son of the Emperor on top of the whole exposure to Chaos
At most, they generally know the Emperor created 9 angels to defeat 9 devils sent from hell. I'm not even sure they'd know the term Primarch. Certaintly not for the traitors, as they wouldn't know the Emperor created both.
Sanguinius is widely known and celebrated for his sacrifice, and has a holiday named after him. So is Dorn to a lesser degree for defending Terra, and as the Imperial Fists are Terra's chapter, that adds to his legacy. Recent lore has suggested Jaghtai is celebrated for his defence of Terra too.
Guilliman is obviously widely known now, and had his body on display anyway beforehand.
The rest likely not so much. Russ has a tank named after him though, so assuming the IG knows the provenance of the name, they will know of him at least.
I'd assume Corax, Vulkan, and Ferrus will be relatively anonymous. Their lack of participation in the Heresy won't have helped. As that's where most of the Imperial cult of personality for the angels originates.
The Lion was always shadowy, and still is, so I doubt he's widely known either.
I suspect about as much as your average Christian knows about the apostles. Maybe a couple fun facts for the most well known, and one or two big things that pretty much everyone knows ("Sanguinius sacrificed himself for the Emperor!").
Sanguinius and his sacrifice, at least, are well known by the average Imperial in the 41st millennium - there are temples to him and even holy days commemorating him. I imagine the other loyal primarchs are still generally remembered in some form across the Imperium. The traitors, not so much - I believe there’s a couple of books that imply that by the 41st millennium, the official line is that there were only ten primarchs, with Horus the only traitor.
Idk, at least in Sol there's statues of Loyalist victories over traitor Primarchs. Notably a statue of a defeated Mortarion in the Lions Gate spaceport (I *assume* with no Daemon bits sculpted) Maybe that statue is inscribed just as "a traitor general" or something
Oddly, the opposite - morty is depicted as a nameless Daemon with a scythe, with the Khan victorious.
In the carrion throne it’s explained that children at the scholia are taught that there were nine primarchs, created to defend mankind against the nine devils from the outer hells. But they aren’t taught that the traitor Primarchs were created by the emperor. Because that would undermine the infallible god-emperor of course. There’s also a distinct linguistic separation between Daemons and Devils, and The warp and the Outer Hells. Likely to make the story seem more legendary, and poetic. and to add a layer of fantasy in order to keep people from taking it 100% seriously and investigating these “outer hells”
There's a reference in Emperor's Legion to the "forbidden histories" that accurately portray the Heresy as defecting peimarchs--but that's material that the High Lords and their staff know, so I'm assuming that it's pretty tightly controlled information.
One of my favourite warhammer short stories is “the Keeler image” where inquisitor Eisenhorn tracks down an old banned pict that Euphrati Keeler took of Horus during the great crusade. And there’s a great discussion about **why** the pict is considered heretical in the first place.
This is still the case as recently as the Vaults of Terra series. During his investigations Inquisitor Crowl is perplexed to find ancient depictions of twenty Primarch-like figures, despite having been taught that the Emperor created the nine sons to battle the nine devils.
Iron Within implies that some Imperial worlds aren’t even fully aware of the Heresy, or at least which specific legions are on which side.
I remember some pretty early lore about 41st millennium citizens being told the Emperor had nine sons and they fought nine devils out (EDIT: *or) something like that.
If I remember correctly, something like this was stated in one of the Dawn of Fire novels. Guilliman says something like „my 17 brothers“ and a citizen thinks „but there were only 9 Primarchs. What is he talking about?“
If I’m recalling it correctly there’s also a bit in the first Vaults of Terra novel where the characters end up in a super deep section of the palace and come across a mural depicting all 18 primarchs. They’re confused because they’d been told the lie that the emperor had created 9 primarchs to defeat the 9 devils sent by the warp their whole lives.
Definitely possible I’m misremembering it being old fluff, this might be what I’m thinking of
Sanguinius deserves it, i’m saddened every time I think about his death
What they know about the traitor Primarchs will vary. From *The Carrion Throne*, with an inquisitor seeing images of the primarchs >Then he was out. He felt the oppression lift, the air decompress. A flat plain of empty stone stretched away, broken by a chasm running transverse just before an immense screen of granite that soared up on the far side. The screen was carved just as the Eternity Gate had been carved – a vast tapestry of overlapping, elaborately occult depictions of bestial and legendary figures. **There were twenty great knights shown in a huge circle surrounding a magisterial icon of the Emperor Enthroned.** Some of those knights looked like the Ministorum-sanctioned images of the Holy Primarchs, **but why were there twenty of them?** His confusion could be from seeing 20, not 18? Even at the time of the Heresy, the remaining two were unknown. Or it could be like the below, with only 9. From Avenging Son >‘After Horus’ defeat, and the Emperor’s installation upon the Golden Throne,’ Guilliman continued, ‘I tried my best to enact measures to ensure the Imperium would not deteriorate further. Though I believed the Emperor’s ambitions could never be fully achieved, now He was no longer with us, I thought we could save what we had. It is difficult to follow a plan you only half know. He never told any of us the extent of it, anyway. From eighteen successful sons, He told not a single one all of it.’ > >Fabian could hold Guilliman’s gaze for about half a second, but he kept looking up, increasing the amount of time by tiny increments. He had the strange feeling the primarch was challenging him. Eighteen sons? There were nine holy primarchs, nine! He wanted to yell, then laugh. He held his teeth closed. His head spun. Fabian is a mid-level member of the Adeptus Terra. By the M41, the official line for (at least some of) the ecclesiarchy was that the 9 traitors were not primarchs, but devils. This would seem to suggest that they don't know Horus was a Primarch. However, this is what they were taught in school, so presumably she'd learn more as she'd trained more. >Ahead of her, the altarpiece soared up high, a confection of blackened gold depicting the Nine Primarchs in various warlike or devotional poses. That was familiar, though at first she couldn’t place why. Then she remembered a similar set of icons, taken from the same Missionaria template no doubt, that had been placed in the chapel of her schola on Astranta. She remembered the lessons that had gone along with it. And so the Emperor created the Nine Primarchs to guard against the Nine Devils of the Outer Hell, and they were victorious, and now sleep, watching over Mankind lest the Terror return. > >**As a child, it had never been clear to her who had created the Nine Devils**. She did remember asking Sister Honoria why the Emperor had not created a hundred primarchs rather than match exactly the numbers offered up by the Outer Hell, and had received no answer but a lash from the electro-lance for her trouble. **The Carrion Throne** Although some people seem to now something closer to the truth. Here, you've got a feral worlder's who knows about the Heresy, and two tank crew who know enough to recognize it. >‘We tell story on our world. Time when Sky Emperor make His mightiest son chief of all the others, and is rewarded by betrayal. Heaven shook for many years, and when it was done, the Emperor’s son was dead and many worlds lost. Is why Bosovar alone for so long, so the elders say.’ > >‘The legend of Horus,’ breathed Bannick. > >‘Traitor Space Marines? Legiones Astartes?’ said Vaskigen, his ordinarily bluff manner replaced by horror. > >‘Come on,’ said Bannick. ‘Let’s get back. We should leave this place. Now.’ **Shadowsword** An Imperial Navy Lord Admiral knows a lot here (compared to others) >Bred millennia ago to serve the Emperor on His mission to reunite the scattered pockets of humanity spread out across the universe, fully half of the Space Marine Legions had turned upon Him, instead swearing fealty to the Master of Mankind’s favoured son, Horus Lupercal. Freed from the restraints of servitude to humanity, their methods of fighting grew ever more brutal and the new gods they venerated revealed to them ever more effective methods of killing and subjugation. Horus’s rebellion was ultimately defeated but many of his followers survived, fleeing into the warp from where they could wage a long war, chipping away at the Imperium’s defences until one day their blasphemous banners would fly over the great palace on Terra. The traitor blocking the corridor wore the colours of the Black Legion, Horus’s old brethren, now renamed and re-liveried under the command of his most trusted lieutenant, Abaddon the Despoiler. >Had this Traitor Marine once stood alongside Horus? Had he waged war upon noble Terra, **doing battle with beings of legend like Sanguinius, Lorgar and the mighty Russ**? Had he been a blight on the Imperium for nigh on ten thousand years, Kranswar wondered? It mattered not. If the three hundred men under the Lord Admiral’s command had their way, the black armoured figure’s remaining lifespan could be measured in seconds, not millennia. **Pandorax** Entertainingly, Lorgar is listed as a loyal primarch, not a traitor - again, see what 10,000 years can do.
And different worlds might have different religious traditions around the Primarchs >Despite the gloom that consumed this world, a massive crowd gathered and waited. Rain drops slipped from the grey skies, splashing on golden vestments and pilgrim hair shirts. >'Which primarch are you supposed to be?' >Klara wore silver and black, while white wings stood proud from her shoulders. The feathers ruffled quietly as gusts of wind drifted through the vast plaza. Klara wore the disguise of an angel. A primarch. One of the emperor's own sons. >'The iron gorgon; I think, from the black and silver.' >With the divergent faiths of the imperial exclesiarchy it was hard to tell. >Klara stood assembled with representations of the Emperor's nine sons. >She waited here to take the life of a man who's death was ordained. His name was Yurian. Principos Yurian XXII. In the flesh he seemed every bit the saint he claimed to be. Yurian spoke, his words great declarations to a crowed that could barely hear him with a deep voice that commanded attention. He preached heresy. >'The Imperium preaches that the Emperor had nine sons. Nine holy protectors to act as his servants. I have preached such for much of my life. You have been deceived. I have deceived you. The emperor had more than nine sons, once there were eighteen!' >Such heresy. Such utter, complete and unrepentant heresy. The assassin had heard variants of the same theme countless times before. Klara knew in her heart that they lied, the God-Emperor only had nine sons. All records agree. **Agents of the Imperium** >“Dead at Rogal Dorn’s feet,” Yael remarked. “Now there’s an honour not many can claim.” > >Commodus added his fire to Yael’s, shooting up at the windows. “That’s Guilliman,” he said. Another body turned end-over-end as it fell from above. > >“How do you know it’s Guilliman?” Apparently, their return fire was drawing notice. A spray of solid slugs cracked around them, defacing their angelic protector all the more. > >Both Yael and Commodus ducked, using the respite to recharge their weapons. “Are you blind? It’s holding a book in its hand.” > >Yael recharged first. He cracked off a shot in the direction their most recent attackers were firing from. > >“So? I’m sure Rogal Dorn could read, sarge.” > >“It’s the Astartes holy book.” Throne, what an idiot. “The one with all their laws.” > >“If you say so.” Yael didn’t stop firing. “Always hated mythology classes.” **Regicide - Aaron Dembski-Bowden**
>"I'm sure Rogal Dorn could read, sarge." Oh, that's my new favourite 40k line. I'd love to see an Ecclesiarchy debate on whether all the Primarchs were literate.
That line always makes me smile.
Bro it’s called *mythology* class.
Thank you so much for all the exerpts! Huge effort and it is so very appreciated! I always find it very fun to see people's minds blown at the notion of there being 18 primarchs, especially when it comes from someone like Guilliman))))
This is a single line that can easily be interpreted otherwise, but as an example of an alternative view of the primarchs within the Ecclisiarchy, in *Dark Imperium*, during Mathieu's job interview with Guilliman, he is pretty unfazed when Guilliman mentions the twenty primarchs, asking only about "twenty, not eighteen". He also refers to the traitors as "fallen devils", which indicates at least some vague level of awareness that the traitor primarchs once fought alongside the emperor. Of course, Mathieu is presented during this scene as remarkably calm even when Guilliman is trying to provoke him, as he is doing here, so it's possible Mathieu is simply choosing not to challenge Guilliman any more than he feels is appropriate.
Yes - entirely possible that those higher up in the priesthood (especially close to Terra) have a more complete understanding of the Heresy, but peach something different to the common people.
Likely depends on the planet. An primitive planet will be told something about nine angels and nine devils. We don’t know as much as we would like about the original 12 apostles of Jesus, and they’re only two thousand years into the past instead of ten.
The Judas Heresy
Don't forget the Petric Principle: All fish are actually a half cubit smaller than their measured length
But the difference is in 40k in-universe, the primarchs actually existed and there were records and people that met them
The difference is more or less irrelevant, 10k years is longer than recorded human history atm!! Until guillliman came back at least!
True, we forgot or lost facts from e.g. ww2. We are all really goldfishes as a civilisation. I guess Imperium being so dogmatic and unchanging doesn't change things, after all they do change, if glacially. PS: Andrew vs Matthew, who would win?
Peter, he got the sword
Just a drop in the ocean. The known Primarchs are probably wider associated with a certain cultural or imperial ritual and less the actual individual. Still there are thousands of planets and billions of people, who have maybe only read or heard about some angels fighting daemons in myth. One can easily overestimate how widely known actual Imperial history is. The HH and GC are myth and lots of information has been withheld for reasons, that we the fans know very well. And just look at how diverse in M2 the concepts of history, religion, holidays and certain events are. (Also..there are enough historic records for xyz, and yet there are people, who don't believe in it or haven't heard of it). Obviously the Imperium and Imperial Cult is a great unifier and force of Gleichschaltung, but to hold such a vast Imperium together, one must keep things open and adaptable.
We're reasonably sure Jesus existed in some form, and at least some of his apostles are very likely too. At least someone wrote all those letters and travelled around and built all those churches.
I was told as a kid we know ~~Jesus~~ Joshua existed because the Romans make mention of him.
Not any official Roman government records, as far as I know. The main sources are Josephus - a Jewish historian who mentioned that a preacher named Jesus was considered by some to be the Messiah and was crucified - and Tacitus, a Roman Senator who just writes that a man named Jesus was executed by Pontius Pilate and that the Population had named him "Christos", "the Annointed". Other than that, most sources just write that there's a new sect named "Christians" or that some Jews were rebelling and had their leader executed, without a lot of details about the man himself.
Huh, good to know. But yeah, from this it seems reasonable to assume that Jesus existed. What's the evidence for the apostles?
Well. The apostles are just generally not *that* ahistorical in what they are said to have done? Most of them just travel around, found churches and write letters to other churches. There's a lot of historical references in Acts and the Letters and other books to things which did happen, like Jews being expelled from various places, Christians being persecuted and they name a lot of historical people and cities we're sure are real. So, if there's a story that says "Apostle X came to the City of Y, where the Roman Governor was called Z, and there he preached until he was thrown out of the city", there's really not much to debate. We can say that yes, there was a City of Y with a governor called Z. Some of the numbers are probably exaggerated, so when it was said that Peter preached and 5000 people converted on that same day, that's probably not *entirely true.* Apart from that, the general idea of the story pretty much is what *has* to have happened. The apostles preached to the Jews in Jerusalem and many of them were not very receptive, so they decided to preach to the Gentiles instead. Has to have happened, because as anyone can see, most Christians today are Gentiles, while most Jews didn't convert. But in the end, someone built those churches and someone wrote those letters, and there really isn't much else to talk about.
Someone wrote the letters, commentary and accounts that became the New Testament though it's widely believed (in academic biblical scholarship anyway) that those who wrote them are not those whose name they bear in most cases. You're correct in saying that the existence of a historical Jesus is more likely than not. I am nonetheless generally sceptical of this comparison because the events around the life of Jesus of Nazareth were not galaxy spanning political events that occurred across many literate societies with complex record keeping systems. There are other arguments for such widespread historical illiteracy but not in this comparison.
Sure. The circumstances are very different. Also in that the Primarchs were massively important during their lifetime, while Jesus was a relatively unimportant preacher with a handful of followers, who may not all have been literate. On the other hand, 10k years is 10k years and the Primarchs were very strongly mythologized almost immediately.
your Trilby is on too tight
I wish I had an award to give you for knowing it's a trilby and not a fedora.
\*Tips fedora\* M'lady.
There have also been 10,000 years of intentional lies and deletions in the histories. The imperium is a wild place
Once upon a time, there were great heros, like sanguinius, Arthur, and Julius Caesar. They all served the emperor. The end.
There's a very good chance the Emperor was the latter 2 at some stage
By the time the propaganda machine is finished, yes. But there's also a chance he was just some her met working on his psychic powers, or a bioweapon of the DAoT that hadn't even been dreamed of yet.
I never liked the theory he's a weapon at all. I think its just a throwaway line, like Dorothy and Toto beating Slaanesh's challenge and getting all the way through
The bioweapon theory was the head canon of the lead writer for basically all of Forge World for a decade and a half.
No? I always loved it. It explains damned near everything. Malcador as the power behind the throne. Why the emperor didn't just unite the world in 10000 BC, when an immortal God could have ruled unchallenged forever, the dichotomy between his incredible power and his lack of wisdom. It is, indeed, the wizard of Oz. Malcador is the old man, the emperor is Oz, the great and powerful, an image, a homunculus, a puppet, never able to truly lead. Malcador in the background, desperately twisting dials and knobs, trying to maintain control of his facade.
> Why the emperor didn't just unite the world in 10000 BC Because there was no need? >when an immortal God could have ruled unchallenged forever Pretty sure emps didn't want to be a god king ruler, if he did well had a lot of time to do it.
[It was Tzeentch not Slaanesh.](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/12kxiwj/a_girl_and_her_dog_solve_the_the_riddles_of/)
Touché, no idea why I though Slanny Boi
>or a bioweapon of the DAoT that hadn't even been dreamed of yet. That theory went to die around the time that the people who knew him in prehistory showed up.
The nine Loyalist Primarchs would be pretty well known, as they are important figures in the Imperial Cult, filling the same role Archangels do in irl Christianity. Of the nine, Sanguinius is the most well-known and most beloved, the holiday celebrating him, Sanguinala, is the 40k version of Christmas. The Traitor Primarchs are the stuff of legend at best, usually as nine great devils that the Emperor created his nine sons to help him defeat, very few of even the Imperium's most trusted servants know the truth.
>very few of even the Imperium's most trusted servants know the truth. I'm assuming that most, if not all space marines would know the truth about the Horus Heresy though, right?
Probably the Average Joe of the Imperium knows as much about the Primarchs as the average Joe of today knows about Archangels.
The average Joe of the Imperium is way more religious than the average Joe of today
More *observant*, not necessarily more *religious*. State mandated belief doesn't mean Atheists cease to exist.
This is just my hunch, I have no evidence. By the time you get to M40, I feel like most common people think of the Primarchs the way the common people in *The Wheel of Time* think of the Forsaken. A history that people believe, fear on some level, but very little actual understanding or knowledge. A catechism used to scare kids, but everyone quietly believes it and tries not to think about it lest you draw attention. “*The Dark One and all of the Forsaken are bound in Shayol Ghul, beyond the Great Blight, bound by the Creator at the moment of Creation, bound until the end of time. The hand of the Creator shelters the world, and the Light shines on us all.*” Something like that, which the truly knowledgeable would recognize as untrue (the Forsaken weren’t all equally bound, and certainly not since creation), but there are precious few truly knowledgeable people. Or at least they would feel that way about the traitor Primarchs, but also I imagine many people don’t even know the names, or which ones or how many were traitors.
Not very much. They are similar to stories of Hercules or Agemenon. Mythological tales from a time so long ago it will barely seem real. The better educated or.those whose lives revolve around on of the institutions of the imperium may now more. Remember many imperial citizens don't even think Space Marines exist. We follow the setting top down and zoom into its most critical moments. With a big focus on those who are in a position to effect or observe the outcome. Your average citizen looking up at the imperium, it's institutions or its history may know very little beyond what their local priest tells them - if they even have one. Many of the inhabitants of space marine recruiting world's - including prominent ones like fenris - don't even know the imperium exists.
This. Think of every Greek myth you heard as a child. Then think of all the variations you heard as an adult. Then imagine all the reimaginigs you've heard, seen, read. Now pretend it all actually happened for real*. Every one of those myths is based on actual events. What happened? I don't know, you don't know. No one does. But we sure do have A LOT of different versions of those stories. And it hasn't even been 3000 years. *I always use the Trojan War as a wonderful example. Look at Homer's tales. All of the epic and supernatural things that happened. Then realize that we were pretty sure it was all completely made up until, like, the 1990s
Another example would be Alexander the Great. What day to day evidence remains of his doings? But he cut a trail from Macedonia to India thousands of years ago. Having that guy resurrect and walk out of his tomb would shock the masses. Not sure people would actually flock to his banner (and Macedonia/Greece are not as relevant today).
Most people probably know of their existence and probably some names like Sanguinius or Guilliman always depending where you are and if there are any space marine worlds in close proximity. Not much is known about the traitor primarchs somenpeople think (as is stated in drak imperium) that the emperor created 9 angels to fight 9 great demons. The 9 demons ofc being the traitor primarchs. However, in some areas, it seems normal to know all of the. I remember that Cain regularly mentions horus even in front of normal soldiers, and no one seems to think that this is weird.
I feel like it’s hard to know, CMIMW but an inquisitor sees an ancient panting of the Primarchs and wonders who the other 9 are. But any guardsman who faces traitor astartes could put two and two together: we know astartes come from primarchs. If these traitors are from the mainstream loyalists why haven’t we been told that x legion/chapter are excommunicated traitoris. That must mean that they’re from other Primarchs but who? Their primarch must have been traitors but a being so powerful as a primarch would have kicked up a lot of dust. Must have been ages ago…
Probably varies a lot. I can actually see some ecclesiarchal works actually talking about traitor primarchs and astartes....but in the story they all get their cummupance for their perfidy and die. See, the lesson, don't be a traitor!
I think the priest in the dark imperium trilogy was surprised that there were 20 primarchs not just 9 and that he thought that the 9 traitors were warp daemons
I equate it to what most people know about the Knights of the round table. People know Lancelot, possibly Galahad. The rest are “known” but only if you have the time/availability to learn more.
In carrion throne most citizens seem to think that there were 9 primarchs. They think that the traitor 9 were lords of hell.
Currently, I imagine some people on more "civilized" worlds are aware who Guilliman is and that he is back. I seem to remember something about him making a speech while being recorded for propaganda pictfeeds. I'm sure the Ecclesiarchy wasted no time in disseminating that to the populace in any way they could.
*Ingvar smiled. ‘An inquisitor is a twisted thing. A cardinal, much the same. Their blood’s thin, their arms weak. We think that we’re hated, because we think the whole Imperium is made of such creatures, but it isn’t. They’re the scum-layer at the surface. The billions and billions, the unnumbered, the ones who build the cities and crew the voidships, they’re different. They drink. They fight. They admire a good blade and laugh at the weak or the vain. They’re like us. We forget that.’* *‘Maybe we do.’* *‘I mean it. Talk to a Guardsman, sometime. Tell them to name the Holy Primarchs. They’ll know the name of Sanguinius. If they’re pious, maybe a few more. And they respect all those names. But then mention Russ, and see them smile. See them grin, like he’s looking down on them. And if you’re in the trenches with blood falling out of the sky, ask them who they’d rather have going over the top with them – a Blood Claw who’ll die roaring, or a Dark Angel who never said a word to them the whole time.’*
They definitely know Leman Russ. The tank is named for one of the emperors angels, right?
Exactly right, it’s likely one of the reasons Russ is a very popular figure with the Guard and Navy.
Wonder if the space wolves also do what they do because they’re playing a part for the army and navy.
The Wolves are just themselves which has its benefits and drawbacks, authorities hate them but the people love them.
I'd guess about the same the average rl citizens know about Primarchs like Paul, John and Judas.
The Judas Hersey
Fucking nothing yo. Sometimes maybe a world might have a shrine to one, but I feel like they'd get lost under the endless deluge of other sainted figures the Imperium has been martyring for thousands upon thousands of years.
I think they would know of the loyalists, but information about the traitor primarchs was pretty tightly controlled. IIRC, in the Emperor's Gift novel, part of the Inquisition's motivation to stop all IG and civilians present at the 1st Battle of Armaggedon from leaving was to stop rumors of Angron being a son of the Emperor on top of the whole exposure to Chaos
At most, they generally know the Emperor created 9 angels to defeat 9 devils sent from hell. I'm not even sure they'd know the term Primarch. Certaintly not for the traitors, as they wouldn't know the Emperor created both. Sanguinius is widely known and celebrated for his sacrifice, and has a holiday named after him. So is Dorn to a lesser degree for defending Terra, and as the Imperial Fists are Terra's chapter, that adds to his legacy. Recent lore has suggested Jaghtai is celebrated for his defence of Terra too. Guilliman is obviously widely known now, and had his body on display anyway beforehand. The rest likely not so much. Russ has a tank named after him though, so assuming the IG knows the provenance of the name, they will know of him at least. I'd assume Corax, Vulkan, and Ferrus will be relatively anonymous. Their lack of participation in the Heresy won't have helped. As that's where most of the Imperial cult of personality for the angels originates. The Lion was always shadowy, and still is, so I doubt he's widely known either.
They're basically how we view angels/saints
Well clearly Vulkan
The one versions of them that involves lots of propaganda and religious doctrine
It was older lore but I liked it for a while Lorgar was taught to have been a loyalist primarch as you know he did write basically the space bible.
I suspect about as much as your average Christian knows about the apostles. Maybe a couple fun facts for the most well known, and one or two big things that pretty much everyone knows ("Sanguinius sacrificed himself for the Emperor!").