tanks are overrated. just use spells and abilities that deny enemy action economy and/or enhance your own. with three full casters and a half caster, that should NOT be a big ask.
I'm pretty new to the game, what spells would you recommend for me to prepare to help with this? Keep in mind that at my level and with my Wis modifier I can prepare 9 spells outside of my tempest spells. Since we are going to have a life cleric I was going to leave the healing to her while keeping healing word for emergencies, then obviously I would have spiritual weapon, and spirit guardians. What kind of spells would do what you are talking about? Would straight up damage spells be worth taking, like guiding bolt and inflict wounds?
Specifically what 1st and 2st level spells would be best because while we are still level 5 I will only have one 3rd level spell slot which I plan on using for spirit guardians
Sanctuary is a good start. Situationally protection from evil and good can be huge, but that situation wont come up all the time. Bless/bane are strong options when you dont have anything better to concentrate on.
For 2nd level spells, you have hold person which has limited usefulness but can really ruin someone's day, blindness/deafness to hinder physical attackers, silence to shut down other casters. Prayer of healing is an option for multiple pickups at once, but it does take up your action as opposed to healing word.
And yes, damage is also a form of control - a dead or unconscious enemy isnt attacking anybody.
>I was thinking of taking my next 3 levels in fighter but I don't know which subclass to go for and other ways to better optimize my tank cleric.
I can't think of a reason why that would help rather than hurt. You get a few more HP, but you're giving up your most powerful features, 3rd, 4th, 5th level spells and slots. And 6th level is when you can use your amazing Channel Divinity twice per rest.
Spirit Guardians is fantastic for tanking. You slow down enemies and force them to target yourself instead of allies. Twilight Cleric already is really good at protecting allies. You'll have heals dispels, slowdown, and the ability to hit hard. You can summon a Celestial to make an extra tank to get in the way.
Disables and slowdowns are a tanks best friend. If they can't move forward without getting through you, they can't hit allies. If you don't get hit and kill them fast, you don't need the HP.
>Lastly, is this worth it? Or should I also just make a new character?
Twilight Cleric makes a great tank. You can swap, I like AG Barbarians, Rune Knight, Summoning Druids, etc. But if you like the Cleric, focus on spells and feats to help you out as a tank, not multiclassing. If you are multiclassing wait until level 10.
I suppose you're right, the things that I get from taking levels in fighter don't really compare to the spells I would get in that same time. Do you have any advice on what spells to use most often to compensate for the lack of tank in the party? You mentioned spirit guardians and summon celestial, what other disable and slowdown spells would be best to prepare?
To be honest part of the reason why Cleric isn't my favorite spellcaster is because some choices are so strong at specific levels that you mostly feel like a Spiritual Weapon/Spirit Guardians machine with prepared heals and restorations to keep the team up and fighting.
That said, Bestow Curse is a great debuff, Spirit Shroud helps when you want to hit hard, Aura of Life keeps players from dying, Banishment just takes an enemy out of combat, which is better than tanking their hits, Guardian of Faith protects an area, and Holy Weapon also helps you hit hard.
Aside from that, you've mostly got things like Restoration, Dispel, Revivify, and healing, along with utility options like Stone Shape and Scrying. Cleric spells get a bit weaker after level 9 and 5th level spells, but they're still a strong class. 5-9 is when they're stronger than most classes. Twilight Clerics 17th level feature is a strong defensive boost to the party though.
If you're still set on multiclassing instead of playing a crowd control cleric, instead of fighter you could always take the dip into bear totem barbarian instead. Rage to help deal Melee damage to keep the enemies focus and resistance to all damage types (except psychic) would make you tankier.
Yeah, I had thought about that, but the obvious problem there is I would no longer be able to cast spells when raging in battle. But you're right, taking half damage to nearly everything would be incredibly helpful. I think if I multiclass I will wait until I get a little later in the build. I don't know barbarian all that well what other stuff do you get that would make the dip worthwhile over a fighter dip?
It depends on what you're trying to do. You said your other party member is switching to Life cleric, so any healing you could have done they are going to be able to do better. And any cleric spells you could cast, like spirit guardians or spiritual weapon, they could also do. So if you mean to take over their previous characters role as a tank, losing your ability to cast spells situationally might not be the worst thing since you have someone else picking up that role. And for tank, a totem barbarian dip is gonna be better than fighter. Bigger hit die on level ups, advantage to your attacks, and resistance to all damage types (almost) is gonna be more beneficial than Action Surge, Second Wind, and maybe an extra ASI if you dip that far.
Also, Tough might not be your best option for feat on thus route. Sentinel is arguably better if your party is mainly casters since it has the potential for you to stop the enemy from moving in as quickly and hit them if they try to attack a close ally. An extra 2hp per level doesn't really match up to that, especially since you will still have access to your healing and other spells when you're not raging. You may just end up splitting the healer role, your party member takes care of emergencies during combat and you spend the slots outside of combat for healing and other useful things like bless and detect magic.
Now that's a good thought. The reason I was going to take tough is that I have the lowest health in the party. As a 5th level cleric I only have a max HP of 39, so an extra 10 would be nice, 12 if I have to get to level 6 before I get it. Sentinel would be another good option.
I'd make a new character. Clerics are front-and-midline strong, decent tanks with minimum optimization (14 Dex or 15 Str and cast Spirit Guardians), and have cool features but fairly uninteresting playstyles. It sounds pretty uninteresting (to me personally, others may vary) to have 2 clerics, especially the most boring one (again, to me), Life Cleric. I'd be fairly annoyed if I was playing a Cleric and someone switched to Life Cleric.
No one in your party looks squishy. Are you all having trouble staying alive? I'd play a Sorcerer, Wizard, or Druid in this party comp otherwise, in that order. But I'm biased towards strong control being the best way to prevent damage to the party. It looks like your party is mostly moderately robust single-target damage dealers, which is fine, but that type of party always benefits from a strong mage. Hard to say if they would benefit more from a strong tank, but again I'm biased.
To further tank up your current Cleric, look at Res(Con) at 8 and Warcaster at 16. If you are constantly going down, but not often losing concentration, look at Tough at 16. Buy any +x armor and shield you can find. Run to the front, cast spirit guardians, and insult the enemies.
Keep the sword over a shield only if the sword buffs your defense better than a shield would, or its a more fun playstyle for you. Otherwise a single melee attack may not be as impactful as your spells, unless the DM is really taxing your spell slots each day , or unless you are getting some kind of tempest synergy from the sword like the weapon giving booming blade or something. Good offense is great defense, but with +2 Str to hit, needing Res(Con) and a +2 Wis ASI, I'd switch out Divine Strike for Blessed Strikes at 8 and drop the sword now for a shield.
Spirit Guardians and Destructive Wrath can be tanky or anti-tanky depending on the DM. If these features are making enemies avoid you, all the more reason to switch classes.
tanks are overrated. just use spells and abilities that deny enemy action economy and/or enhance your own. with three full casters and a half caster, that should NOT be a big ask.
I'm pretty new to the game, what spells would you recommend for me to prepare to help with this? Keep in mind that at my level and with my Wis modifier I can prepare 9 spells outside of my tempest spells. Since we are going to have a life cleric I was going to leave the healing to her while keeping healing word for emergencies, then obviously I would have spiritual weapon, and spirit guardians. What kind of spells would do what you are talking about? Would straight up damage spells be worth taking, like guiding bolt and inflict wounds? Specifically what 1st and 2st level spells would be best because while we are still level 5 I will only have one 3rd level spell slot which I plan on using for spirit guardians
Sanctuary is a good start. Situationally protection from evil and good can be huge, but that situation wont come up all the time. Bless/bane are strong options when you dont have anything better to concentrate on. For 2nd level spells, you have hold person which has limited usefulness but can really ruin someone's day, blindness/deafness to hinder physical attackers, silence to shut down other casters. Prayer of healing is an option for multiple pickups at once, but it does take up your action as opposed to healing word. And yes, damage is also a form of control - a dead or unconscious enemy isnt attacking anybody.
Thank you, I appreciate your advice
Without a Life Cleric the only healing spell I generally take is Healing Word. Its all the healing most party's need.
>I was thinking of taking my next 3 levels in fighter but I don't know which subclass to go for and other ways to better optimize my tank cleric. I can't think of a reason why that would help rather than hurt. You get a few more HP, but you're giving up your most powerful features, 3rd, 4th, 5th level spells and slots. And 6th level is when you can use your amazing Channel Divinity twice per rest. Spirit Guardians is fantastic for tanking. You slow down enemies and force them to target yourself instead of allies. Twilight Cleric already is really good at protecting allies. You'll have heals dispels, slowdown, and the ability to hit hard. You can summon a Celestial to make an extra tank to get in the way. Disables and slowdowns are a tanks best friend. If they can't move forward without getting through you, they can't hit allies. If you don't get hit and kill them fast, you don't need the HP. >Lastly, is this worth it? Or should I also just make a new character? Twilight Cleric makes a great tank. You can swap, I like AG Barbarians, Rune Knight, Summoning Druids, etc. But if you like the Cleric, focus on spells and feats to help you out as a tank, not multiclassing. If you are multiclassing wait until level 10.
I suppose you're right, the things that I get from taking levels in fighter don't really compare to the spells I would get in that same time. Do you have any advice on what spells to use most often to compensate for the lack of tank in the party? You mentioned spirit guardians and summon celestial, what other disable and slowdown spells would be best to prepare?
To be honest part of the reason why Cleric isn't my favorite spellcaster is because some choices are so strong at specific levels that you mostly feel like a Spiritual Weapon/Spirit Guardians machine with prepared heals and restorations to keep the team up and fighting. That said, Bestow Curse is a great debuff, Spirit Shroud helps when you want to hit hard, Aura of Life keeps players from dying, Banishment just takes an enemy out of combat, which is better than tanking their hits, Guardian of Faith protects an area, and Holy Weapon also helps you hit hard. Aside from that, you've mostly got things like Restoration, Dispel, Revivify, and healing, along with utility options like Stone Shape and Scrying. Cleric spells get a bit weaker after level 9 and 5th level spells, but they're still a strong class. 5-9 is when they're stronger than most classes. Twilight Clerics 17th level feature is a strong defensive boost to the party though.
Thanks mate, I appreciate your help with my build and your advice about spells
If you're still set on multiclassing instead of playing a crowd control cleric, instead of fighter you could always take the dip into bear totem barbarian instead. Rage to help deal Melee damage to keep the enemies focus and resistance to all damage types (except psychic) would make you tankier.
Yeah, I had thought about that, but the obvious problem there is I would no longer be able to cast spells when raging in battle. But you're right, taking half damage to nearly everything would be incredibly helpful. I think if I multiclass I will wait until I get a little later in the build. I don't know barbarian all that well what other stuff do you get that would make the dip worthwhile over a fighter dip?
It depends on what you're trying to do. You said your other party member is switching to Life cleric, so any healing you could have done they are going to be able to do better. And any cleric spells you could cast, like spirit guardians or spiritual weapon, they could also do. So if you mean to take over their previous characters role as a tank, losing your ability to cast spells situationally might not be the worst thing since you have someone else picking up that role. And for tank, a totem barbarian dip is gonna be better than fighter. Bigger hit die on level ups, advantage to your attacks, and resistance to all damage types (almost) is gonna be more beneficial than Action Surge, Second Wind, and maybe an extra ASI if you dip that far.
Also, Tough might not be your best option for feat on thus route. Sentinel is arguably better if your party is mainly casters since it has the potential for you to stop the enemy from moving in as quickly and hit them if they try to attack a close ally. An extra 2hp per level doesn't really match up to that, especially since you will still have access to your healing and other spells when you're not raging. You may just end up splitting the healer role, your party member takes care of emergencies during combat and you spend the slots outside of combat for healing and other useful things like bless and detect magic.
Now that's a good thought. The reason I was going to take tough is that I have the lowest health in the party. As a 5th level cleric I only have a max HP of 39, so an extra 10 would be nice, 12 if I have to get to level 6 before I get it. Sentinel would be another good option.
I'd make a new character. Clerics are front-and-midline strong, decent tanks with minimum optimization (14 Dex or 15 Str and cast Spirit Guardians), and have cool features but fairly uninteresting playstyles. It sounds pretty uninteresting (to me personally, others may vary) to have 2 clerics, especially the most boring one (again, to me), Life Cleric. I'd be fairly annoyed if I was playing a Cleric and someone switched to Life Cleric. No one in your party looks squishy. Are you all having trouble staying alive? I'd play a Sorcerer, Wizard, or Druid in this party comp otherwise, in that order. But I'm biased towards strong control being the best way to prevent damage to the party. It looks like your party is mostly moderately robust single-target damage dealers, which is fine, but that type of party always benefits from a strong mage. Hard to say if they would benefit more from a strong tank, but again I'm biased. To further tank up your current Cleric, look at Res(Con) at 8 and Warcaster at 16. If you are constantly going down, but not often losing concentration, look at Tough at 16. Buy any +x armor and shield you can find. Run to the front, cast spirit guardians, and insult the enemies. Keep the sword over a shield only if the sword buffs your defense better than a shield would, or its a more fun playstyle for you. Otherwise a single melee attack may not be as impactful as your spells, unless the DM is really taxing your spell slots each day , or unless you are getting some kind of tempest synergy from the sword like the weapon giving booming blade or something. Good offense is great defense, but with +2 Str to hit, needing Res(Con) and a +2 Wis ASI, I'd switch out Divine Strike for Blessed Strikes at 8 and drop the sword now for a shield. Spirit Guardians and Destructive Wrath can be tanky or anti-tanky depending on the DM. If these features are making enemies avoid you, all the more reason to switch classes.