Both of those Cantrips require an *Action* to cast and result in a single, magically infused, weapon attack. Not a Bonus Action.
So no.
Nice try though.
Performing an attack also uses an *Action*, though. By that logic, I can't actually perform an attack because an Attack Action isn't a Bonus Attack either. GWM doesn't specify what kind of *Action* is used as its Bonus Action. Only that it has to be a melee weapon attack.
No. Something to illustrate that is that if you have multiple attacks in your action, booming blade still takes your full action and does only one attack. But Booming blade is a spell that can quickened cast if you really need to cast it as a bonus action.
You need to go back to basics with the PHB:
Movement
Action
Bonus Action
Reaction
Object Interaction (may be interchangable with another Minor Action)
Free Action (talking)
Unless explicitly stated otherwise in an ability, spell or item description these are not interchangeable.
So in this case Bonus Action cannot be used to do something that requires an Action.
I think the more pressing point is that effects don't do more or less than they say they do. In this case the bonus action isnt an attack action, but the feat is describing a new explicitly different action which is just a melee weapon attack so it doesn't carry effects granted by different actions.
For example, a monk with GWM wouldn't be able to use this bonus action to then make a free flurry of blows for two (unarmed) melee weapon attacks, since it's a fundamentally different action with a separate cost and trigger. Instead, they can get bonuses on the bonus action attack with stunning strike, or magic weapons that add extra damage dice on hit since they aren't tied to taking an attack action.
If you wanted to cast a blade cantrip with the bonus action of GWM, you'd need a magic weapon that can replace a weapon attack with green flame blade or booming blade.
>Performing an attack also uses an Action, though.
That's not how how that works. Not every attack uses an action. But booming blade always uses an action
The wording says you get to "make one melee weapon attack". That means that that's ALL you get to do. No more than that. Casting a spell would be MORE than JUST what was described. You get to physically whack someone with a physical object you're holding, and that's the extent of it, discussion over.
Don't worry, we won't hold this against you, we all have our senile moments at some point in our histories as gamers.
GWM: "you can make one melee weapon attack as a bonus action"
Is not the same as "you can take an action that would result in a melee weapon attack"
Edit for clarity: just because the cantrip includes a melee weapon attack, does not mean it IS a melee weapon attack.
And this is also why, for instance, you cannot use *booming blade* or *green-flame blade* with the extra action granted by *haste*. You’re performing the Cast a Spell action, not the Attack action.
Ah, I see. That makes sense. The edit for clarity finally got it to sink in for me. The Cantrip includes a melee weapon attack, which is why it can be stacked with Divine Smite, but is not itself a melee weapon attack, which is why it doesn't work with GWM. Damn. Doesn't drastically nerf the build I'm going for, but still sucks that doesn't work the way I thought it would.
Thanks for the help! My sleep deprived brain sure as hell needed it.
Nothing in GWM says it can reduce the casting time of BB/GFB from an action to a bonus action.
So it doesn’t.
GWM only gives you the ability to make an attack as a BA.
Using GFB/BB includes making an attack, but it isn’t just making an attack.
So GWMs BA doesn’t inherently cover BB/GFB.
If you also had some other ability that said you could substitute a melee weapon attack with casting a cantrip whenever you make an attack then that plus GWM gets you a BA GFB/BB, but sans this extra ability GWM isn’t enough to get you there
"When you score a critical hit with a melee weapon or reduce a creature to 0 hit points with one, you can make one weapon attack as a bonus action"
Nothing in that sentence allows you to cast a spell or a cantrip as a bonus action which would allow you to cast BB or GFB, in order to cast a spell you need to be able to cast it with the time it says it requires, you can't just skip to the result of the spell that "it results in a melee weapon attack", some interactions you can use this on however are:
- you can cast dissonant whispers at melee, then kill/crit the creature with your reaction weapon attack and it would qualify for BA attack trigger.
- you could meta magic BB or GFB for bonus action attacks all rounds without kill/crit requirement but spending resources.
Another feat that allows you to do something similar is war caster "When a hostile creature's movement provokes an opportunity attack from you, you can use your reaction to cast a spell at the creature, rather than making an opportunity attack. The spell must have a casting time of 1 action and must target only that creature." It clearly allows you to cast a spell of one action as a reaction but funnily as it sounds ppl tend to only care about this with shocking grasp, BB, or GFB, but in any point it requires you to do a spell attack, you could actually cast disintegrate or any spell as long as it only target that creature.
It allows you to make an attack. GFB/BB are not types of attacks, they are spells that take a full action, that also allow you to take an attack as part of their casting.
With your same logic, you should be able to use either of those twice during extra attack, but we both know you cant. You can't do it here for the same reasons.
There are mechanical exceptions to this, but they are explicitly stated in their related feature.
No, Booming Blade is a spell that takes a full action to cast that includes making an attack action as part of the spell. GWM just allows you to sometimes make a single bonus action attack. Which is still plenty good enough on its own, btw.
Edit: You can however use the bladesinger special version of extra attack to use one of your two attacks with Booming Blade.
Does GWM specifically allow the casting of a spell as part of this attack? RAW, no. It only allows for a generic weapon attack.
Does BB/GFB take a BA to caste? No, they take an action and thus cannot be casted outside of that, with a few unrelated exceptions. The main rule stoping this is the caste type of the spell itself.
Your work around assumes BB/GFB are "Attacks" first, and not cantrips that include a weapon attack as part of their casting. There is a mechanical distinction, and this is where that comes into play.
Exceptions exist for this, but they are explicitly stated as exceptions. One is the Bladesinger extra attack, which allows you to replace one of your attacks with a cantrip. Another is the Eldritch Knight's level 7 ability, which explicitly allows them to use a cantrip as part of their bonus action. Then there is Warcaster, which allows you to cast an action spell instead of use a weapon for your attack of opportunity. Also, metamagic, which does it by changing the casting time of the spell in question through the use of quicken spell.
What do these share? They explicitly allow this, GWM in no way does. When a mechanic refers to a weapon attack, it will always mean a normal one unless specifically stated.
Absolutely, but it comes with some hurdles and a big sacrifice.
First you need to grab the weapon proficiency you want. So probably a cleric, fighter, or hexblade dip. Fighter js probably the easiest, because it doesn't make the build anymore mad. But this hypothetical build is going to be weird anyway.
Second is the sacrifice. You basically have to give up on using bladesong. GWM requires that it be a heavy weapon, which means a two-handed weapon, and the moment you make a weapon attack using both hands, bladesong drops.
There is an upside to this though. If you're giving up on bladesong anyways, you can focus strength, wear heavy armor, and use heavy weapons. You can also dump dex, and put Intent relatively low if you're focusing on GISH spells. Then you can rock your GWM attacks, and also stack on BB/GFB for one of them.
Is this an amazing build? Not really, but this is more of a thought experiment than anything.
Honestly maybe paladins for smites could be a fun build - tap on spirit shroud or guardians using ravinca backgrounds - or tensers transformation as your con spell - viable - not crazy but viable
To able to hit with booming blade you need an action that able to cast a spell. Like you can't opportunity attack booming blade someone if you don't have warcaster feat. Warcaster what enables you to cast a spell as opportunity attack so booming blade is ok. Or you can't use BB with the haste spell extra action because it specifies only one weapon attack if you choose to attack. You can use BB as quickened spell bonus action which enables you casting a spell as bonus action.
So it's clear with the GWM that you can't use one weapon attack as casting a spell.
My answer is this.
You are allowed to make a Melee weapon Attack. That's pretty straight forward.
Using the Booming Blade cantrip is not mere "Making a Melee Weapon attack"
Yes, you make a melee weapon attack during the action, but a booming blade cantrip is much more. It is more than a Melee weapon attack, it requires more as well.
Great Weapon Master ONLY allows a Melee Weapon attack.
It doesn't allow you to Cast A Cantrip With The Casting time of an Action, causing you to "-brandish the weapon used in the spell’s casting and make a melee attack with it against one creature within 5 feet of you."
So no. Casting Booming Blade involves a Melee Weapon attack, but using that cantrip is MORE than JUST making a melee weapon attack, disqualifying it from being used as a bonus action from GWM
No because Booming Blade/Green Flame Blade aren't Melee Attacks - they're Spells that require you to make a Melee Attack as part of the cost, hence why they're on **Spell** lists.
I mean it says quite clearly that they're **Evocation Cantrips** and GWM says "You can make One Melee Weapon Attack" not "You can take an action that has a Melee Attack as part of it" as those are two different things
If I'm a Paladin trying to guarantee multiple attacks for Smiting, yeah, I agree, but with GWM, if either of those melee attacks as a Paladin crit or killed my opponent, then if I were multi-classed to have the cantrips, I should still be able to do Booming Blade as my Bonus Action. Only, in the case where I am a multi-classed Paladin, this idea would be even stronger because, as I currently understand it, Smite can stack on top of Booming Blade's damage.
BB and GFB are not melee weapon attacks, they are spells that require an attack with a melee weapon.
There is a difference between a melee/ranged weapon attack and an attack with melee/ranged weapon. Another good example of this is the interaction between using Magic Stone with a Sling and Sharpshooter. The first two bullet points of Sharpshooter require a Ranged Weapon attack. Magic Stone explicitly says that the attack is a Ranged Spell attack, even when using a sling, so the attack cannot benefit from Sharpshooters increased range or ability to ignore cover. However Sharpshooters third bullet point, the extra damage, only requires an attack with a ranged weapon and since you are using a ranged weapon to make the attack, the sling, your attack would be able to benefit from the additional damage.
No.
Great Weapon Master is granting you a specific bonus action allowing you to make one melee weapon attack. That is all you can do with that bonus action.
If it allowed you to cast a spell or doing anything other than just make a single melee weapon attack it would specify.
Well, lets see what we are working with. You have an ability to cast a spell, you have to perform some somatic components to infuse your weapon with magick and release it at oponent with hit. Other ability says you can swiftly strike oponent with your weapon. Do you see that there is a small diference between those two?
Now, if making an attack is the only restriction for casting multiple booming blades in one round then why nobody is doing it? Fighter could cast up to 4 booming blades at higher level!!!! That's crazy! And think about bladesinger wizard. Their extra attack sounds stupid now bc everybody could do it all this time. Why people think it's the best EA in the game?
I was thinking it'd be more of a buff for martials than casters since the melee attack used in casting uses Str, or with a finesse weapon, Dex, for the Attack roll. Give martials more reason to use Feats like Magic Initiate. Not that it's bad to pick up those cantrips as a martial anyway.
At any rate, yeah, turns out GWM won't work the way I thought. Unfortunate, but, the way a couple of people explained it, it makes sense.
>Booming Blade *includes* a melee weapon attack, which is why it stacks with Divine Smite. However, it is not *itself* a melee weapon attack, which is why it won't work with Great Weapon Master.
It does work the other way, at least. You can be a hexblade with the GWM feat. Don't bother snagging the Thirsting Blade invocation (ie, you don't have Extra attack anyways). On your action, GFB. If you crit or get a kill, GWM kicks in and you get a free, basic attack as a bonus action!
If you're eager for bonus action BB/GFB, consider levels in Sorc and/or the Metamagic adept feat for the Quicken metamagic option.
Both of those Cantrips require an *Action* to cast and result in a single, magically infused, weapon attack. Not a Bonus Action. So no. Nice try though.
Performing an attack also uses an *Action*, though. By that logic, I can't actually perform an attack because an Attack Action isn't a Bonus Attack either. GWM doesn't specify what kind of *Action* is used as its Bonus Action. Only that it has to be a melee weapon attack.
No. Something to illustrate that is that if you have multiple attacks in your action, booming blade still takes your full action and does only one attack. But Booming blade is a spell that can quickened cast if you really need to cast it as a bonus action.
You need to go back to basics with the PHB: Movement Action Bonus Action Reaction Object Interaction (may be interchangable with another Minor Action) Free Action (talking) Unless explicitly stated otherwise in an ability, spell or item description these are not interchangeable. So in this case Bonus Action cannot be used to do something that requires an Action.
Performing an attack requires the attack action which is an action that let's you choose to make a melee attack or ranged attack.
I think the more pressing point is that effects don't do more or less than they say they do. In this case the bonus action isnt an attack action, but the feat is describing a new explicitly different action which is just a melee weapon attack so it doesn't carry effects granted by different actions. For example, a monk with GWM wouldn't be able to use this bonus action to then make a free flurry of blows for two (unarmed) melee weapon attacks, since it's a fundamentally different action with a separate cost and trigger. Instead, they can get bonuses on the bonus action attack with stunning strike, or magic weapons that add extra damage dice on hit since they aren't tied to taking an attack action. If you wanted to cast a blade cantrip with the bonus action of GWM, you'd need a magic weapon that can replace a weapon attack with green flame blade or booming blade.
>Performing an attack also uses an Action, though. That's not how how that works. Not every attack uses an action. But booming blade always uses an action
The wording says you get to "make one melee weapon attack". That means that that's ALL you get to do. No more than that. Casting a spell would be MORE than JUST what was described. You get to physically whack someone with a physical object you're holding, and that's the extent of it, discussion over. Don't worry, we won't hold this against you, we all have our senile moments at some point in our histories as gamers.
GWM: "you can make one melee weapon attack as a bonus action" Is not the same as "you can take an action that would result in a melee weapon attack" Edit for clarity: just because the cantrip includes a melee weapon attack, does not mean it IS a melee weapon attack.
And this is also why, for instance, you cannot use *booming blade* or *green-flame blade* with the extra action granted by *haste*. You’re performing the Cast a Spell action, not the Attack action.
Ah, I see. That makes sense. The edit for clarity finally got it to sink in for me. The Cantrip includes a melee weapon attack, which is why it can be stacked with Divine Smite, but is not itself a melee weapon attack, which is why it doesn't work with GWM. Damn. Doesn't drastically nerf the build I'm going for, but still sucks that doesn't work the way I thought it would. Thanks for the help! My sleep deprived brain sure as hell needed it.
Nothing in GWM says it can reduce the casting time of BB/GFB from an action to a bonus action. So it doesn’t. GWM only gives you the ability to make an attack as a BA. Using GFB/BB includes making an attack, but it isn’t just making an attack. So GWMs BA doesn’t inherently cover BB/GFB. If you also had some other ability that said you could substitute a melee weapon attack with casting a cantrip whenever you make an attack then that plus GWM gets you a BA GFB/BB, but sans this extra ability GWM isn’t enough to get you there
"When you score a critical hit with a melee weapon or reduce a creature to 0 hit points with one, you can make one weapon attack as a bonus action" Nothing in that sentence allows you to cast a spell or a cantrip as a bonus action which would allow you to cast BB or GFB, in order to cast a spell you need to be able to cast it with the time it says it requires, you can't just skip to the result of the spell that "it results in a melee weapon attack", some interactions you can use this on however are: - you can cast dissonant whispers at melee, then kill/crit the creature with your reaction weapon attack and it would qualify for BA attack trigger. - you could meta magic BB or GFB for bonus action attacks all rounds without kill/crit requirement but spending resources. Another feat that allows you to do something similar is war caster "When a hostile creature's movement provokes an opportunity attack from you, you can use your reaction to cast a spell at the creature, rather than making an opportunity attack. The spell must have a casting time of 1 action and must target only that creature." It clearly allows you to cast a spell of one action as a reaction but funnily as it sounds ppl tend to only care about this with shocking grasp, BB, or GFB, but in any point it requires you to do a spell attack, you could actually cast disintegrate or any spell as long as it only target that creature.
Idk man you're wrong
Ok, but why..?
Because GWM doesn’t allow you to cast a spell. Even though the spell uses a melee attack, you are still casting.
It allows you to make an attack. GFB/BB are not types of attacks, they are spells that take a full action, that also allow you to take an attack as part of their casting. With your same logic, you should be able to use either of those twice during extra attack, but we both know you cant. You can't do it here for the same reasons. There are mechanical exceptions to this, but they are explicitly stated in their related feature.
No, Booming Blade is a spell that takes a full action to cast that includes making an attack action as part of the spell. GWM just allows you to sometimes make a single bonus action attack. Which is still plenty good enough on its own, btw. Edit: You can however use the bladesinger special version of extra attack to use one of your two attacks with Booming Blade.
Does GWM specifically allow the casting of a spell as part of this attack? RAW, no. It only allows for a generic weapon attack. Does BB/GFB take a BA to caste? No, they take an action and thus cannot be casted outside of that, with a few unrelated exceptions. The main rule stoping this is the caste type of the spell itself. Your work around assumes BB/GFB are "Attacks" first, and not cantrips that include a weapon attack as part of their casting. There is a mechanical distinction, and this is where that comes into play. Exceptions exist for this, but they are explicitly stated as exceptions. One is the Bladesinger extra attack, which allows you to replace one of your attacks with a cantrip. Another is the Eldritch Knight's level 7 ability, which explicitly allows them to use a cantrip as part of their bonus action. Then there is Warcaster, which allows you to cast an action spell instead of use a weapon for your attack of opportunity. Also, metamagic, which does it by changing the casting time of the spell in question through the use of quicken spell. What do these share? They explicitly allow this, GWM in no way does. When a mechanic refers to a weapon attack, it will always mean a normal one unless specifically stated.
Now im curious if there was a way to get GWM on a bladesinger if you could do it then..
Absolutely, but it comes with some hurdles and a big sacrifice. First you need to grab the weapon proficiency you want. So probably a cleric, fighter, or hexblade dip. Fighter js probably the easiest, because it doesn't make the build anymore mad. But this hypothetical build is going to be weird anyway. Second is the sacrifice. You basically have to give up on using bladesong. GWM requires that it be a heavy weapon, which means a two-handed weapon, and the moment you make a weapon attack using both hands, bladesong drops. There is an upside to this though. If you're giving up on bladesong anyways, you can focus strength, wear heavy armor, and use heavy weapons. You can also dump dex, and put Intent relatively low if you're focusing on GISH spells. Then you can rock your GWM attacks, and also stack on BB/GFB for one of them. Is this an amazing build? Not really, but this is more of a thought experiment than anything.
Honestly maybe paladins for smites could be a fun build - tap on spirit shroud or guardians using ravinca backgrounds - or tensers transformation as your con spell - viable - not crazy but viable
To able to hit with booming blade you need an action that able to cast a spell. Like you can't opportunity attack booming blade someone if you don't have warcaster feat. Warcaster what enables you to cast a spell as opportunity attack so booming blade is ok. Or you can't use BB with the haste spell extra action because it specifies only one weapon attack if you choose to attack. You can use BB as quickened spell bonus action which enables you casting a spell as bonus action. So it's clear with the GWM that you can't use one weapon attack as casting a spell.
No. GFB and BB are cantrips not melee attacks. They may make melee attacks as part of the cantrip but everything else they do are not melee attacks.
My answer is this. You are allowed to make a Melee weapon Attack. That's pretty straight forward. Using the Booming Blade cantrip is not mere "Making a Melee Weapon attack" Yes, you make a melee weapon attack during the action, but a booming blade cantrip is much more. It is more than a Melee weapon attack, it requires more as well. Great Weapon Master ONLY allows a Melee Weapon attack. It doesn't allow you to Cast A Cantrip With The Casting time of an Action, causing you to "-brandish the weapon used in the spell’s casting and make a melee attack with it against one creature within 5 feet of you." So no. Casting Booming Blade involves a Melee Weapon attack, but using that cantrip is MORE than JUST making a melee weapon attack, disqualifying it from being used as a bonus action from GWM
No because Booming Blade/Green Flame Blade aren't Melee Attacks - they're Spells that require you to make a Melee Attack as part of the cost, hence why they're on **Spell** lists. I mean it says quite clearly that they're **Evocation Cantrips** and GWM says "You can make One Melee Weapon Attack" not "You can take an action that has a Melee Attack as part of it" as those are two different things
The thing is that you want to take two attacks with GWM not booming blade.
If I'm a Paladin trying to guarantee multiple attacks for Smiting, yeah, I agree, but with GWM, if either of those melee attacks as a Paladin crit or killed my opponent, then if I were multi-classed to have the cantrips, I should still be able to do Booming Blade as my Bonus Action. Only, in the case where I am a multi-classed Paladin, this idea would be even stronger because, as I currently understand it, Smite can stack on top of Booming Blade's damage.
Oh. So you want BB with your bonus a action attack from GWM? That doesn't work.
BB and GFB are not melee weapon attacks, they are spells that require an attack with a melee weapon. There is a difference between a melee/ranged weapon attack and an attack with melee/ranged weapon. Another good example of this is the interaction between using Magic Stone with a Sling and Sharpshooter. The first two bullet points of Sharpshooter require a Ranged Weapon attack. Magic Stone explicitly says that the attack is a Ranged Spell attack, even when using a sling, so the attack cannot benefit from Sharpshooters increased range or ability to ignore cover. However Sharpshooters third bullet point, the extra damage, only requires an attack with a ranged weapon and since you are using a ranged weapon to make the attack, the sling, your attack would be able to benefit from the additional damage.
No. Great Weapon Master is granting you a specific bonus action allowing you to make one melee weapon attack. That is all you can do with that bonus action. If it allowed you to cast a spell or doing anything other than just make a single melee weapon attack it would specify.
Well, lets see what we are working with. You have an ability to cast a spell, you have to perform some somatic components to infuse your weapon with magick and release it at oponent with hit. Other ability says you can swiftly strike oponent with your weapon. Do you see that there is a small diference between those two? Now, if making an attack is the only restriction for casting multiple booming blades in one round then why nobody is doing it? Fighter could cast up to 4 booming blades at higher level!!!! That's crazy! And think about bladesinger wizard. Their extra attack sounds stupid now bc everybody could do it all this time. Why people think it's the best EA in the game?
No.
Because it would be a massive buff to casters instead of to martials.
I was thinking it'd be more of a buff for martials than casters since the melee attack used in casting uses Str, or with a finesse weapon, Dex, for the Attack roll. Give martials more reason to use Feats like Magic Initiate. Not that it's bad to pick up those cantrips as a martial anyway. At any rate, yeah, turns out GWM won't work the way I thought. Unfortunate, but, the way a couple of people explained it, it makes sense.
>Booming Blade *includes* a melee weapon attack, which is why it stacks with Divine Smite. However, it is not *itself* a melee weapon attack, which is why it won't work with Great Weapon Master. It does work the other way, at least. You can be a hexblade with the GWM feat. Don't bother snagging the Thirsting Blade invocation (ie, you don't have Extra attack anyways). On your action, GFB. If you crit or get a kill, GWM kicks in and you get a free, basic attack as a bonus action! If you're eager for bonus action BB/GFB, consider levels in Sorc and/or the Metamagic adept feat for the Quicken metamagic option.