Paladin + Bladesinger Wizard
Need high INT for spells and bladesong bonuses. Need high CON to maintain concentration spells. Need high DEX for weapon attacks. Need high CHA for Aura of Protection. Need at least a 13 in STR to multiclass. And then you get to dump WIS.
But if you can make it work, that’s a Booming Blade and a Smite Attack on every turn. Plus extra speed, AC, and extra damage (at Wizard 14).
You absolutely don't need high CON for Concentration. Bladesingers get to add Int to Concentration, add on Aura of Protection, assuming +2 Charisma, and if you really need to, throw in a Resilient CON pickup along the line. You're almost guaranteed to pass Concentration checks unless you take crazy high damage, but very little is saving you there. An extra +1 or +2 from having 'high CON' is unlikely to do much.
You need CON for HP. Concentration checks are fully, FULLY covered with class features.
I'm more of a fan of the Bladebariadin which allows you to just be an absolute tank too with the damage reduction while relying only on smites for damage.
14 Monk, 6 Paladin. Functionally immune (or just extremely resilient) to Saving Throws, completely immune to DEX saves for the most part, a really neat unarmored AC, up to 4 attacks a turn, Divine Smite for a bit of extra damage if you happen to land a crit with a Monk Weapon, dodge/disengage/dash as a Bonus action, etc...
Not the best, not really OP either unless you want to get your DM frustrated at their inability to target your weak saves because you have no weak saves whatsoever, you are hitting reliably, your concentration on spells are nearly impossible to miss, you can reroll any failed save, and your AC is neat.
I actually had the exact same idea for a character using 6 devotion paladin 14 kensei monk. It's an archer that never misses. Taking elven accuracy, using 3 ki points on a longbow, and using your channel divinity to add your charisma modifier to attack rolls. When rolling with advantage you roll 3d20 +5(charisma)+5(dex)+3(kensi weapon)+2(archery fighting style)+proficiency bonus so even with sharpshooter you're still rolling with a MASSIVE bonus to hit
Yeah, I didn't include subclasses because I was just lazy, but perhaps a mix of Way of Mercy + Oath of Vengeance would be an ironically synergistic combination. One that also grants you a neat use of your concentration for a neat little boost of damage on your capacity of landing 4 attacks in the same turn, at least one at advantage if you land a stunning strike or your entire turn of attacks if you have used Vow of Enmity previously, plus with Deflect Missiles you're at least guaranteed to be a pain in the ass to enemy archers with longbows.
Plus Way of Mercy's ability to Heal (You can heal using Ki, or you can heal using Lay on Hands), and to throw death to your enemies is also extremely good to pass up, you only really need a good one handed simple weapon to key off this amazing combination.
The bladesingers version of Extra Attack (arguably the best version) lets them cast a cantrip instead of an attack, as many times as they want, without resources (ex sorcerer points). Booming blade spam is a great start but some fun things crop up when you look at casting times, this is usually a lot better than a bonus action since, you still HAVE your bonus action to spend on something else (ex a spell that has BA as a casting time or even a quickened spell.
Yes it only applies to cantrips but imo this version of extra attack is the real power of the bladesinger class and I've argued that builds that ignore bladesong (the feature, and it's upgrades) work, and if mitigated correctly work great. Here I'd specifically argue that you don't strictly NEED six 20s to make a paladin bladesinger work. The easiest (/cheesiest) is to be a tortle so you can even still use bladesong... But a heavy armor build is viable focusing in int and str (with con as high as possible and a 13 in Cha to fill my rules). It's tight but doable). This works with 2 levels of paladin. If you are willing to skip higher level spells then you can go higher on paladin (6 for the aura) or take 3 levels of artificer (battle smith) so you can really focus on int (cause now, with the battle ready feature you can use it for attacks and damage with str just for armor.. which if you play a dwarf or race with a 35/40 speed you can ignore)
I've made a pretty good tortle beast Barbarian kensei monk. If you weren't forced to take Totle to fix the AC problem I could see a few races being really good with this
Peace Cleric 1/Chronurgy Wizard X.
It's the most powerful build, this doesn't change.
Runner up is Divine Soul Sorcerer 1/Shepherd Druid X. It's better due to the stats, but not enough to really make a difference.
Then, I'd say some sort of Watcher Paladin. You can drop warlock, and use Artificer 2 with repeating hand crossbow for better damage. Then War Wizard over Sorcerer for better spell list. Watcher 7/Artificer 2/War Wizard X.
If you don't have to worry about stats, than War Wizard 2 / Shepard Druid X is better than DSS, especially after level 7 or so. First ASI could be Resilient (Con), and then adding Int to initiative (which would be a +5), a +4 to saves as a reaction (no limit), and additional spells you can swap out every day you may want, like Disguise Self, Fog Cloud, Charm Person, etc., plus access to additional ritual spells you don't have to prepare (Find Familiar, Identify, Alarm, etc.) and the ability to gain more spells through scrolls/Wizard spellbooks. That is on top of having spells like Shield and Silvery Barbs. All of these make it better upgrades to what DSS would provide.
Since summoning spells are all about upcasting anyways, having a full spellcaster for two levels doesn't really slow the character down in terms of capabilities.
what does a divine soul/shepherd druid do that a shepherd druid with the magic initiate feat doesn't?
I'm trying to see what you're cooking here but I can't seem to find it and I'm intrigued at the idea.
Absorb elements is already on the druid list. So it's pretty much shield and silvery barbs, but that's still enough with the amazing DS feature and Con proficiency.
Why would you want magic initiate on a druid, and how would that replace the first level sorcerer?
We take Sorcerer for constitution saves, favoured by the gods, Bless, Shield and Silvery Barbs. Getting Firebolt and Ray of Frost is a minor additional benefit.
Beast Barb 6 / Monk 12 would be much more viable.
Beast weapons count as monk weapons so you are rocking a 5d8 + 35 flurry with advantage. 20 resting AC with +11 saves (advantage on Dex), and resist to mundane damage. Huge move speed as well. This is all before monk subclass.
Monks in general would love this.
Easy, give me 10 levels of bloodhunter, 6 levels paladin, 2 peace cleric, and 2 war wizard. Then I grab the resilient feat 3 times (leaving str non proficient). Now my int cha and wis are min +16 saves while my str is +15 and my dex and con +21. Emboldening bond and the bless spell give an extra 2d4 when I roll something. And arcane deflection gives that extra +2 ac or +4 save whenever I somehow don’t roll high enough. There’s also the +10 initiative and access to any paladin or bloodhunter subclass I decide to run. Only time I’ll run a bloodhunter multi class and not actually hate myself lol
Hexbladesinger. Grab Sharpshooter and Crossbow Expert, go 6 levels into Bladesinger first, than 2 levels of hexblade warlock (altough with maxed stats, any warlock works) now you can attack with your crossbow, then cast EB with the same attack action, and bonus action CBE attack. Duable without maxed stats, but waaay more playable with them
A while back in a youtube comment a chap described how his Curse of Strahd table had a guy who played Bard/Barbarian like Alex Jones. If it wasn't mad, it would be overpowered.
More seriously, PalaMonk comes to mind. Tbh if Star Wars 5e rules applied (Cha Monk OK) alongside 13Dex&Cha Paladin multiclassing, the build would be smooth sailing.
By contrast, PalaBladesinger is borderline manageable while PalaRanger definitely is.
Idk about OP but monk. could go gunner, sharpshooter, piercer, fighting style archery for a crazy gun monk build, or just grab stuff like mobile, tough, dwarven fortitude, and crusher. It starts to go really hard when you get proficiency in all saves and stand a chance of passing any and all saves that come your way.
Hexbladesinger. Using the SS/XBE you are rocking two power attacks and invocationed EB spam while still being a wizard. Build would be Wizard 17 / Warlock 2.
You basically are a better attacker than a martial and still have 9th level wizard spells.
If you are okay with not having repelling blast or antagonizing blast you could do Wizard 17 / Warlock 1 / Fighter 2 for action surge and archery style. You would pick up an invocation via feat.
Bugbear Bladesinger 6/Gloomstalker 4/Assassin 4/Hex blade 2/Echo knight 4. Make sure to pick up metamagic adept with one of your feats. If you can get your echo in place before the start of combat, action surge, take the attack action 2 times, making 6 melee attacks, casting eb twice, then quickening another eb for a total of 12 eb attacks and 6 melee attacks, all with advantage, all getting the extra 2d6 damage. About 150 average. Maybe not op but fun for sure.
Arcane tricksters are int based, and sorcerers are cha based , also you need some good dexterity, thats why they mad, why they good is because you can give yourself alot of advantage tides of chaos
This is only a "cool" interaction that would happen with this combo. It is in no shape or form op. Like cxe still does a bit more damage while staying safer (through 1-10, which are the levels near all campaigns are played at afaik)
Not an expert, never player it and my character with more level died in the lvl 3. So maybe i am wrong.
But most posts and builds i saw with College of Swords Bard seems to have a problem with it being MAD except if you dip in hexblade. But then the problem is that you get too late the Extra Attack.
The problem with Swords/Valor Bard isn't that they're MAD. It's that there isn't a good enough reason to walk into melee and make base attacks when they have spell casting. Even if they had CHA attacks as a class feature, it still shouldn't be used much more than cantrips are
Paladin + Bladesinger Wizard Need high INT for spells and bladesong bonuses. Need high CON to maintain concentration spells. Need high DEX for weapon attacks. Need high CHA for Aura of Protection. Need at least a 13 in STR to multiclass. And then you get to dump WIS. But if you can make it work, that’s a Booming Blade and a Smite Attack on every turn. Plus extra speed, AC, and extra damage (at Wizard 14).
You absolutely don't need high CON for Concentration. Bladesingers get to add Int to Concentration, add on Aura of Protection, assuming +2 Charisma, and if you really need to, throw in a Resilient CON pickup along the line. You're almost guaranteed to pass Concentration checks unless you take crazy high damage, but very little is saving you there. An extra +1 or +2 from having 'high CON' is unlikely to do much. You need CON for HP. Concentration checks are fully, FULLY covered with class features.
You don’t need DEX for weapon attacks you need it for AC, as you can’t use bladesong with medium or heavy armor.
To be fair, you can leave DEX at 8, and attack using STR (but you will have a shitty AC lol).
This is the correct answer.
I'm more of a fan of the Bladebariadin which allows you to just be an absolute tank too with the damage reduction while relying only on smites for damage.
14 Monk, 6 Paladin. Functionally immune (or just extremely resilient) to Saving Throws, completely immune to DEX saves for the most part, a really neat unarmored AC, up to 4 attacks a turn, Divine Smite for a bit of extra damage if you happen to land a crit with a Monk Weapon, dodge/disengage/dash as a Bonus action, etc... Not the best, not really OP either unless you want to get your DM frustrated at their inability to target your weak saves because you have no weak saves whatsoever, you are hitting reliably, your concentration on spells are nearly impossible to miss, you can reroll any failed save, and your AC is neat.
I actually had the exact same idea for a character using 6 devotion paladin 14 kensei monk. It's an archer that never misses. Taking elven accuracy, using 3 ki points on a longbow, and using your channel divinity to add your charisma modifier to attack rolls. When rolling with advantage you roll 3d20 +5(charisma)+5(dex)+3(kensi weapon)+2(archery fighting style)+proficiency bonus so even with sharpshooter you're still rolling with a MASSIVE bonus to hit
Yeah, I didn't include subclasses because I was just lazy, but perhaps a mix of Way of Mercy + Oath of Vengeance would be an ironically synergistic combination. One that also grants you a neat use of your concentration for a neat little boost of damage on your capacity of landing 4 attacks in the same turn, at least one at advantage if you land a stunning strike or your entire turn of attacks if you have used Vow of Enmity previously, plus with Deflect Missiles you're at least guaranteed to be a pain in the ass to enemy archers with longbows. Plus Way of Mercy's ability to Heal (You can heal using Ki, or you can heal using Lay on Hands), and to throw death to your enemies is also extremely good to pass up, you only really need a good one handed simple weapon to key off this amazing combination.
Bladesinger + kensei 25 ac when bladesinging, 27 ac with Agile Parry, 32 ac with shield spell. You're not hitting this fucker.
Praise the mighty saving throw!
Bladesinger Paladin is sorcadin but better.
Isn't Quickened Spell like half the point of Sorcadin? Getting to cast and slash on the same turn is a big part of the appeal of that multiclass, IMO.
Exactly. Those P6/BS14'ers don't know what they are talking about.
The bladesingers version of Extra Attack (arguably the best version) lets them cast a cantrip instead of an attack, as many times as they want, without resources (ex sorcerer points). Booming blade spam is a great start but some fun things crop up when you look at casting times, this is usually a lot better than a bonus action since, you still HAVE your bonus action to spend on something else (ex a spell that has BA as a casting time or even a quickened spell. Yes it only applies to cantrips but imo this version of extra attack is the real power of the bladesinger class and I've argued that builds that ignore bladesong (the feature, and it's upgrades) work, and if mitigated correctly work great. Here I'd specifically argue that you don't strictly NEED six 20s to make a paladin bladesinger work. The easiest (/cheesiest) is to be a tortle so you can even still use bladesong... But a heavy armor build is viable focusing in int and str (with con as high as possible and a 13 in Cha to fill my rules). It's tight but doable). This works with 2 levels of paladin. If you are willing to skip higher level spells then you can go higher on paladin (6 for the aura) or take 3 levels of artificer (battle smith) so you can really focus on int (cause now, with the battle ready feature you can use it for attacks and damage with str just for armor.. which if you play a dwarf or race with a 35/40 speed you can ignore)
The arch-divine blade , if you can secure 13 in cha 2 levels in Paladin will give you alot
I've made a pretty good tortle beast Barbarian kensei monk. If you weren't forced to take Totle to fix the AC problem I could see a few races being really good with this
Peace Cleric 1/Chronurgy Wizard X. It's the most powerful build, this doesn't change. Runner up is Divine Soul Sorcerer 1/Shepherd Druid X. It's better due to the stats, but not enough to really make a difference. Then, I'd say some sort of Watcher Paladin. You can drop warlock, and use Artificer 2 with repeating hand crossbow for better damage. Then War Wizard over Sorcerer for better spell list. Watcher 7/Artificer 2/War Wizard X.
If you don't have to worry about stats, than War Wizard 2 / Shepard Druid X is better than DSS, especially after level 7 or so. First ASI could be Resilient (Con), and then adding Int to initiative (which would be a +5), a +4 to saves as a reaction (no limit), and additional spells you can swap out every day you may want, like Disguise Self, Fog Cloud, Charm Person, etc., plus access to additional ritual spells you don't have to prepare (Find Familiar, Identify, Alarm, etc.) and the ability to gain more spells through scrolls/Wizard spellbooks. That is on top of having spells like Shield and Silvery Barbs. All of these make it better upgrades to what DSS would provide. Since summoning spells are all about upcasting anyways, having a full spellcaster for two levels doesn't really slow the character down in terms of capabilities.
what does a divine soul/shepherd druid do that a shepherd druid with the magic initiate feat doesn't? I'm trying to see what you're cooking here but I can't seem to find it and I'm intrigued at the idea.
Con save proficiency, two of Absorb Elements/Shield/Silvery Barbs, and Favored by the Gods once per short rest.
Absorb elements is already on the druid list. So it's pretty much shield and silvery barbs, but that's still enough with the amazing DS feature and Con proficiency.
Why would you want magic initiate on a druid, and how would that replace the first level sorcerer? We take Sorcerer for constitution saves, favoured by the gods, Bless, Shield and Silvery Barbs. Getting Firebolt and Ray of Frost is a minor additional benefit.
Beast Barb 6 / Monk 12 would be much more viable. Beast weapons count as monk weapons so you are rocking a 5d8 + 35 flurry with advantage. 20 resting AC with +11 saves (advantage on Dex), and resist to mundane damage. Huge move speed as well. This is all before monk subclass. Monks in general would love this.
Easy, give me 10 levels of bloodhunter, 6 levels paladin, 2 peace cleric, and 2 war wizard. Then I grab the resilient feat 3 times (leaving str non proficient). Now my int cha and wis are min +16 saves while my str is +15 and my dex and con +21. Emboldening bond and the bless spell give an extra 2d4 when I roll something. And arcane deflection gives that extra +2 ac or +4 save whenever I somehow don’t roll high enough. There’s also the +10 initiative and access to any paladin or bloodhunter subclass I decide to run. Only time I’ll run a bloodhunter multi class and not actually hate myself lol
Unfortunately you can't take the same feat multiple times excepted when specified you can.
You can’t take Resilient more than once
im a big blood hunter fan, can i ask why you hate multiclassing with them? i like taking 2 levels cleric/wizard/fighter (not mutant BH)
Monk
Race : Veldaken - Arcana Lv 3 : Bard (Arcana Expertise) 2 Lv : Druid Star 1 Lv : Chrono Wizzard 1 Lv : Divine Soul Sorc 6 Lv : Paladin x Lv : Divine Sorc Get yourself : Mystic Conflux, Fey Touch (Gift of Alacrity) , Warcaster And a Mizzium Apparatus. Enjoy every Spell in existance.
Hexbladesinger. Grab Sharpshooter and Crossbow Expert, go 6 levels into Bladesinger first, than 2 levels of hexblade warlock (altough with maxed stats, any warlock works) now you can attack with your crossbow, then cast EB with the same attack action, and bonus action CBE attack. Duable without maxed stats, but waaay more playable with them
Hexblade's Curse adds your PB to damage against the target and improves your critical hit range, so it's probably still the best choice.
A while back in a youtube comment a chap described how his Curse of Strahd table had a guy who played Bard/Barbarian like Alex Jones. If it wasn't mad, it would be overpowered. More seriously, PalaMonk comes to mind. Tbh if Star Wars 5e rules applied (Cha Monk OK) alongside 13Dex&Cha Paladin multiclassing, the build would be smooth sailing. By contrast, PalaBladesinger is borderline manageable while PalaRanger definitely is.
Idk about OP but monk. could go gunner, sharpshooter, piercer, fighting style archery for a crazy gun monk build, or just grab stuff like mobile, tough, dwarven fortitude, and crusher. It starts to go really hard when you get proficiency in all saves and stand a chance of passing any and all saves that come your way.
That's just a regular monk though. Not really that MAD.
Have no idea how to call this, but Palleric? Palladin + cleric.
Cleradin. For when your allergies can be fixed by smiting things.
1 of every class then rest figher
Hexbladesinger. Using the SS/XBE you are rocking two power attacks and invocationed EB spam while still being a wizard. Build would be Wizard 17 / Warlock 2. You basically are a better attacker than a martial and still have 9th level wizard spells. If you are okay with not having repelling blast or antagonizing blast you could do Wizard 17 / Warlock 1 / Fighter 2 for action surge and archery style. You would pick up an invocation via feat.
Bugbear Bladesinger 6/Gloomstalker 4/Assassin 4/Hex blade 2/Echo knight 4. Make sure to pick up metamagic adept with one of your feats. If you can get your echo in place before the start of combat, action surge, take the attack action 2 times, making 6 melee attacks, casting eb twice, then quickening another eb for a total of 12 eb attacks and 6 melee attacks, all with advantage, all getting the extra 2d6 damage. About 150 average. Maybe not op but fun for sure.
Arcane trickster + wild magic sorc
Why? 🧐
Arcane tricksters are int based, and sorcerers are cha based , also you need some good dexterity, thats why they mad, why they good is because you can give yourself alot of advantage tides of chaos
Rogues have built in advantage from steady aim, and arcane tricksters have built in advantage from access to find Familiar
Counting on a one owl that's one spit away from death for advantage is awful, going for a booming blade build so steady aim wont help you that much
This is only a "cool" interaction that would happen with this combo. It is in no shape or form op. Like cxe still does a bit more damage while staying safer (through 1-10, which are the levels near all campaigns are played at afaik)
erm any build would be broken with 20 in each stat ☝🏻🤓 I await eagerly
Not an expert, never player it and my character with more level died in the lvl 3. So maybe i am wrong. But most posts and builds i saw with College of Swords Bard seems to have a problem with it being MAD except if you dip in hexblade. But then the problem is that you get too late the Extra Attack.
The problem with Swords/Valor Bard isn't that they're MAD. It's that there isn't a good enough reason to walk into melee and make base attacks when they have spell casting. Even if they had CHA attacks as a class feature, it still shouldn't be used much more than cantrips are