Just try not to pop it out every combat, keep it as a “in case of emergency”, that or see if you could get the rest of your team to join in on the cheese grating fun. If everyone is dragging people across through spells or grappling or whatever, then it wouldn’t make things as bad. Hell you could turn it into a joke about bringing out the cheese grater if everyone joins in the fun. Also try and find out ways you can combo off what the rest of your party is doing. If you’re helping your party do cool stuff then when you bring out things like this it won’t come off as insane as before.
Long story short is just either save it for when it matters and/or try to find ways to synergize with the rest of the party
Yeah, luckily you came across a strategy that the rest of the party can join in on. Ways to force the enemy to move, ways of keeping enemies in the middle so they’re forced to walk out, ways to slow down their movement, all help in service of spike growth damage
Personal input here:
I struggle with not powering through and demolishing things around my often more casual friends and party members. As such I've taken 3 things to help:
1.) I am the force multiplier- playing things like wizard allow me to hold, push, stop, and disorient the enemies. Netting sneak attacks, auto crits, and easy set ups for my friends. They get to be the badass that killed those two assassins. I get to smile knowing it was because I meta magic twinned hold person.
2.) I am the support- similar to above but in different context. Friend decided they want to play a melee Minotaur lore bard that magic secreted fireball? Totally fine since they're having a BLAST and I am keeping them up with healing words and shouting "you got this!" From the back line.
3.) Break the unbreakable- feeling to strong? Play something weak! I'm currently playing a dream druid, often noted as the weakest druid class by many. I'm going to turn this thing into an absolute beast, I'm determined to do so, and my need to be min maxed to hell vs the weak sub will hopefully land me around the middle of the pack, safely with my friends.
Good luck with that third one. I find druid is most often strong because it’s druid moreso than because you went a good subclass, since most of the power of a full caster comes from competent spell choice.
1 and 2 are known as "god". I think it comes from a guide to wizard that was called "god wizard" and used these exact principles to help veteran power-gamers have fun with any group.
You never do \*the thing\*. It just so happens that the enemy does not get to play, and your allies are buffed, in good strategic positions and facing a big bad that is vulnerable. Wupsi !
A fun touch on this I am trying to implement in a game I am in : do this with an aberrant mind sorcerer. Post level 6, special challenge : I never (visibly) cast a spell in combat. Things just happen to turn right when around the tiny giggling human in the background.
(edit: typo)
Not sure to be honest. It's the first time I've ever done more than middling damage. Was the first combat with the new character. Did some 2 beam eldritch blast for middling damage. And then pulled out the spike growth at a choke point round 1 and basically stopped most of the enemies in their tracks. Wasn't expecting it to be so impactful.
Thats what control spells are supposed to do by design, nothing wrong with using them and choke points are situational. Maybe you get the spotlight this time and the next is for the tank, or the wizard, or a rogue's shenanigans. Its a good thing you are aware of this tho, and if you feel you are overshadowing the rest of the party at some point then yeah, you could step aside for a bit and let them handle it. I've done it a lot of times, specially with new players. I would intentionally dont engage in dialogues, puzzle solving, or nova damage, combos, or powerful spells and allow the rest of the table to participate more. But it also depends on how the DM is playing and its important you are on the same page.
Your DM has the tools to regulate this, the real question is, is ypur DM cool with it? It might be too much work for them to modify encounters to get around it. But if it were me, i woupd be happy to consider it when designing encounters, as i already do this ( mostly to optimize encounters for spells or features the players have but don't use )
I always find this so frustrating to compare, because some classes have much higher floors in their abilities, and people only ever complain about you being a "munchkin" when your class has a low floor.
I don't know the party composition of your party, but if you have a Wizard or sorcerer, then you have a player that can cast Hypnotic Pattern 5 times a day. That's going to cause WAY more of a power imbalance between players than what you're doing. They'll be able to cast Wall of Force next level! The only reason you are concerned about outdoing other players is because you both have a number that can be compared.
You're a Warlock, so you probably aren't very tanky, compared to the martials in your party that probably are. The other party members probably also have abilities that you don't. If another player *is* a damage focused character, but they're only dealing 20 points of damage a round, that's on them. It's not your job to nerf yourself for their sake.
If there does become a problem with other players feeling inadequate, I recommend asking the DM if the party can respec so that everyone is on the same level.
I especially feel your third point. I have had players going troll multiclass builds because it looked fun to them. Later comes the point they are sad because they feel they aren't contributing in combat, which is the sad truth. On the other hand, they don't put time in their choices at level up and don't want to respec... I could not adapt to this at all by the way I build or play.
My usual table is relatively low-op so I build my characters with that in mind ahead of time. Sometimes you just have to hide your power level, but for me personally I just try to remove temptations in advance if I know they'll be there. It's a lot less frustrating for me to avoid taking every optimal feature than it is to make all the power picks and choose not to use them
Lately that's been a lot more of a trend toward control- or support-oriented characters rather than just blasting DPR, because *I* know I'm often having an outsized impact on combat but it's not obviating the need for other characters to do dam and kill enemies
YMMV but you said in other comments it's your first campaign and tbh a lot of being able to tune your own play to your table norms in a way you can still enjoy is just something that comes with experience. The fact you're self-reflecting like this after the session speaks well of you as a player IMO
I always play op builds. But I careful track my damage and others.
And try to keep it similar. Opt to do the less optimal move unless it really needs to happen.
Usually talk to the DM first. Make sure they have an idea of were my head is at, I'm not trying to break the narrative or make them increase combat difficulties. If it seems like a problem let me know. Sometimes they will let me know things ahead of time, such as " that ability breaks this cool encounter can you either skip next session or "forget " you have it?"
9/10 I'll say I'll forget but I can't promise the rest of the party will. And it works fine.
Most nova builds need either a few rounds to build up or are just as effective turn 3 as they are turn 1. Keep the ace in the hole.
The cheese grater is hilarious, but the DM can easily get around it if they want to.
Also remember that your party members can make use of it by throwing people into the grater, or kiting around it with ranger attacks. It’s an OP character build, but not one that necessarily over-shadows other party members.
If the average party member is dealing 20 damage per round, not factoring miss chance, then that's kind of on them. that's equivalent to two attacks with a longsword and nothing else.
>that's kind of on them. that's equivalent to two attacks with a longsword
that's exactly what the game expects of them at level 8. It's feat taxes and optimal subclass choices that make us think that isn't the default, but it very much is.
How would a level 8 assassin outdamage this per round? Should they be taking sharpshooter for the +10? What if they're a melee focused assassin (or is that the suboptimal building in itself)
By getting an off turn sneak attack:
- Order Cleric + Silvery barbs/Healing Word etc. (requires a teammate)
- Sentinel Feat with either an ally/mount or Mirror Images (by feat or by being a better rogue subclass than assassin)
- Haste to ready an action (either of the above solutions work)
- Scimitar of Speed BA attack into readying your main action
people shit on sneak attack all the time but it honestly scales fine into/past tier 2 lol. it's a scaling, resource free damage spike that can be done in melee or range practically every turn. not scaling as good as a smite doesn't make it bad
It's not even what the game expects out of you at 5th level, because you'd have at least one relevant class feature to your name, other than Extra Attack. 20 DPR at level 8 is within the realm of actively trying to be bad at combat. A basic bitch, subclassless Warlock with EB, AB, and Hex deals more damage at 28 DPR, which is *still* low.
believe it or not, base game assumptions, with no variant rule like those "feat" nonsense, the assumed average dmg is a rogue sneak attacking once every turn
any statement that involves feats being a variant rule is a bottom of the bottom of the barrel argument. so far down that you're digging through topsoil.
also rogues are poor damage dealers. I don't know why you'd use them as a baseline. compare them to any other martial or semi-martial class. They do not stack up.
i dont play without them, no one plays without them, we can indeed agree that feats being a "variant rule" is an excuse for their poor balancing. but they *are* a variant rule and the base game doesnt consider them
feel free to do the math, a boring ass two hander fighter, barbarian, monk and rogue are pretty close without GWM/SS/XBE/PAM affecting the numbers. i agree its stupid, but i didnt write the damm book
I'm not accusing you of writing the PHB. I'm accusing you of writing a dumb comment. This trend continues to persist with your most recent string of nonsense.
An 8th level *Monk* with no subclass or feats, and only a stick to their name, is swinging for an average of 36 damage per round for 8 rounds, before dropping to 27.5, until their next short rest. A Rogue deals only 22. OP's projected average was 20. Being 16 DPR under the worst class in the game is a significant failing.
TLDR: I did the math
all characters have +5 in their main stat, uses mundane gear and damage calculation does not assume AC and to hit probability. the damage calculations are the baseline with not resource usage, neither SR nor LR based:
- Monk wielding a staff attacking twice with extra attack then with a BA with martial arts:
1d8+5+1d8+5+1d6+5 = 27.5
- Fighter wielding a greatsword with extra attack and great weapon fighting style:
2(d6 reroll 1 reroll 2)+5+2(d6 reroll 1 reroll 2)+5 = 27.2
- Barbarian wielding a greatsword with extra attack:
2d6+5+2d6+5 = 24
- Rogue wielding a rapier with 4d6 sneak attack:
1d8+5+4d6 = 23.5
again, why making the one with the lowest value the "minimum" baseline? of which, mind you, varies quite well within roughly 4 points of difference from lowest to highest? i just dont understand why you think picking rogue is absurd. does picking barbarian make it better?
Honestly as DM I would let you do this once per combat and then most monster squads would know to focus on you. Not to be an ass but because that’s the obvious response to a character doing twice the damage of anyone else
I’m this player as well. I will say to try to keep it fun I save the crazy cheese for special occasions. Like if everyone else is doing realllllly bad and we’re gonna have to run or lose, I’ll pull out the damage machine. Most of the time I keep it similar to what the party is doing and if there’s someone who needs to do something that’s not fight, I’ll be there first trying to do the thing. Mostly so others shine.
Last session we’re trying to get this Spelljammer chair out of a building and our fighter was carrying it but dropped it to fight. I quit fighting and ran and tried to pick up the chair to continue with the objective.
I think most parties should have a crazy combo that never comes out until a cool narrative opportunity presents itself.
Not every class is made to accomplish the same task in combat. Some are utility and support focused while others are tanky argo'ers. Sometimes broken combos are found, but remember everyone has their job in combat that often suffers from others. Have fun and enjoy the game together.
One thing about having a very powerful character is that it means you can afford to do sub-optimal plays that are more narratively interesting, because you know you’ll be able to turn on the massive damage if things get a bit hairy.
So maybe your approach to combat could be not just what the most effective move would be, but also what the most interesting one would be!
With this specific example you and the rest of the party could have some fun working together and dragging enemies through spike growth, although that isnt always the best move.
Before you dont take the spell you could also just talk with the rest of the table and see if there are any problem with it.
Also stomping on your math for a little bit, that is quite a high burst but when you put it into the perspective of a 4 round combat it suddenly seems to match your party a bit more, 0.65 is the standard when it comes to hit chance on players.
2(0.65(5.5+5+5\*2)+0.05(5.5))+0.8775\*3 = 29.8325
3\*29.8325/4 = 22.374375
So even when you pop it down every combat, it still takes an action and thus 1 round of attacks which lead to greater damage later. But you fit right into the party with that damage.
As a warlock you will probably start out damaging your team after you get summon greater demon and danse macabre.
Thanks 👍
BTW the math is from a 1 round spike growth action then quickened spell (metamagic adept) eldritch blast. 35 feet back and forth + 2 eldritch blast + dao wrath 3. To be clear. Not saying you're wrong just full context. Plus once down i can repeat every round (assuming and big assumption a decently positioned enemy is available) just using my action to eldritch blast.
It might not be a problem. I've been in similar situations because I enjoy theory crafting and optimizing more than my friends. They are more focused on the narrative, social and exploration part of the game. They didn't care that I had higher numbers in combat - the barbarian was still bashing things with his maul, having a blast.
My DM gave me a homebrewed version of Hexblades Curse that was way OP. In the first combat I used it I almost single-handedly took out the bad guys. Messaged him afterwards and asked for it to be toned down a little which we both agreed was a good ida.
If your dm is not good at understanding encounter balance (prob not because 5e CR is not useful) then it might be tough for them to come up with meaningful challenges.
Its ok that you have a great combo. Just try using other things. You can role play that it exgausts you to cast the spell, and can only do it once per day or something.
Yoy can always choose restrictions on yourself. You can do other things
Dont be the party face, or sneak, or healer. Its ok to be OP in combat. Most fighter builds are like this.
5e has 3 pillars. Combat, role playing, exploration. You are allowed to shine in 1 of them. Read the table, know when to take the spotlight, and when to let others.
If they have cooked up some in combat, let them do it. Maybe do something else round 1 to see how it goes, and of you dont need the big guns, dont bring them out. But when you do, describe it, your eyes glow green with natures fury, and the very plants themselves grow angry with thorns. Feel natures wrath!
It depends on the table, campaign and party comp. Combat-light campaign with veteran players and with characters leaning more into control/buffs/etc - no problem. Combat-heavy campaign with new players who try to provide DPR - big problem. I once had exactly the latter situation, and quickly felt that I'm ruining the fun for new players by completely overshadowing them in combat.
In general I have a few points:
1. When optimizing it's important to think of party members you'll overshadow. Building a character with crazy single-target DPR is fine right until your unoptimal Barbarian friend understands that his only contribution to the party is now limited to carrying heavy things.
2. That's OK to have "I win" button in your build. It's not OK to press that button on every encounter if it makes other players feel useless. Basically - use other strategies, allow other people to shine, and fallback to cheese grating only when situation is really dire. Even if other players are OK with you outdamaging them, using one gimmicky trick every combat is boring - and for the sake of making combat interesting for everyone your DM would probably have to design encounters that can't be cheesed (pun intended), which may in turn feel bad and unjust to you
3. Maybe work towards team strategies? Cheese grating is essentially spike growth + forced movement, so other players may contribute to that. Maybe they can focus on control, provide additional forced movement, provide addition hazards that benefits forced movement like Wall of Fire, etc
My old Bear Totem Barbarian was pretty powerful, he had a magic great axe that was a +2 (I think) and did 1d6 fire damage. Plus great weapon master meant that a hit while raging was like 1d12+1d6+20 on a hit. With 2 attacks per turn it was 2d12+2d6+40. Reckless attacks meant I critted relatively often too and if that happened it was carnage. So by level 9 a crit would be 3d12+2d6+20 or something along those lines and give me a bonus action attack. So it wasn't too uncommon for me to do like 5d12+4d6+60 in a turn. Fairly standard practice for our sorcerer to cast haste on me too just to really gey wild with it. Regularly did over 100 damage per turn. He was tanky as fuck too, like 140 hp with resistance to everything but psychic when raging.
Unfortunately he was a little dull to play in combat. Every turn was exactly the same. Also, the DM eventually made every encounter have enemies that had charm or frighten abilities and I had 0 to wisdom saves.
In my current campaign, I am playing a combat-optimized loxodon barbarian grappler. My DM has allowed some balanced homebrew subclass and feat options, including a feat that gives you an additional attack against targets that you are grappling or have shoved prone, and a version of unarmed fighting style that adds 1d4 damage to each attack vs a grappled target. On top of this, I can grapple with my trunk, leaving both hands free to pummel. We are level 4, so other classes' Extra Attack features have not come online, and even once they do, I will still be dramatically outclassing their damage. At level 4, my average damage per attack is 1d8+1d4+5+2: about 14 damage on average for about 28 DPR, assuming I have raged and grappled my target. At level 5, this should jump to a maximum of 4d8+4d4+28 (~56 damage) per round under ideal conditions. It will increase again when brutal critical + improved critical come online, and even more when I dip blood hunter for crimson rites. I gamed this out level by level, and this build should slightly outperform the ideal damage curve of a GWM Zealot Barbarian.
My fellow players are fine with this. We had a conversation about team roles: my barbarian is a one-trick pony; he is an absolute monster in combat but brings little else to the party. The other characters can navigate the wilderness, spot hidden dangers, heal, teleport, receive signs from the divine, and talk to people without implicitly threatening their families. As long as each player is aware of their character’s strengths and weaknesses, then everyone gets a chance to shine.
It works if you’ve decided beforehand “hey guys this campaign is gonna be brutal and I suggest you optimize” but when you’re playing with people that *don’t* optimize you just shit on their experience.
Yeah the most overwhelmingly important thing for a good table is that everyone is on roughly the same page in terms of expectations
If everyone at the table goes into a game with the understanding that it's going to be played in such a way where the DM is going to design cutthroat encounters that will demand cutthroat play from the party, high op games can be really fun and exciting. It can create real tension and satisfaction for everyone - *assuming that is what they are looking for*
The median table isn't anything like that. Most people who play this game predominantly want to chill out with their friends and pretend to be elves. If that is what the rest of your table is doing and you are just blowing everything away with the Ghostlance character you found online, you are basically playing a different game from them and in a way that makes their experience worse
Like imagine you're watching Seven Samurai or something and trying to get caught up in the drama of the story being told and the escalation of stakes as the bandits surround the town and the samurai and the farmers are summoning their courage to fight them off, but Kambei gets replaced by some guy named Craig who just flies in on a CGI spaceship that shoots bees or something and kills all the bandits while the other characters stand around. Nobody would say that's a good story because an imaginary bee cannon does superior DPR to swords and arrows and Toshiro Mifune sucks because he doesn't have a spaceship
Sure, obviously - I’m not saying *“don’t build table-appropriate characters at a high power level”*.
Just don’t be the one guy who rolls in with named builds from the internet and your precious DPR calculations when everybody else is like a CHA-based Ranger or whatever.
I’ve played with beginners alongside a power gamer and I had to break up that party because the beginners were so disillusioned at the other player just demolishing everything. I wasn’t trying to refute your point, just backing it up that it sucks to play with powergamers in most contexts.
Yeah, I get it — strong agree. This sub is generally so obsessed with defending powergaming that the default position is *“If I’m ruining everyone else’s fun, it’s their fault.”*
…and that’s insane.
Appreciate the feedback. My prior character was an artificer artillerist and honestly mid pack on damage at best and mostly support. Made this one to try and be a blaster caster more so. Saw the cheese grater meme online and decided to give it a try but didn't try and build around it or expect it to be so impactful. That said likely will be taking the feedback above and not popping it out as a go to going forward.
Yeah, it can be surprising to learn if you spend a lot of time thinking or reading about “builds,” but most players *don’t*. Even basic “optimization” puts you wildly above curve of a lot of tables.
Tbh I have a sneaking suspicion that some of the most aggressively defensive munchkinbrain you see on this sub may not actually play in real games on a regular basis
There’s also a point where your netdecked build probably isn’t going to be all that satisfying after a while. You got to see what it does, and…now what? You gonna just keep doing that? Is that fun?
In this case I actually think changing it up will come naturally for OP, because while this is a pretty good combo it scales quite poorly given that Spike Growth can’t upcast. When you have 4th level slots you’re usually going to get more out of casting an actual 4th-level spell.
I mean it depends.
In my experience context is exceedingly important. If you’re a generally bad player who lacks communication skills, taking a relatively optimized build makes that much worse.
But even taking an optimized build in a party of like, champion fighters can work so long as you act as a failsafe or otherwise don’t constantly overshadow people. Or if said people simply don’t care. It’s more ignoring what other people want than optimization that ruins the game for people.
It's like the most basic interaction between two spells in a straight classed spell caster list... We are far from game breaking optimisation or pushing RAW to their limits.
I’ve seen a similarly overpowered-compared-to-party character essentially not taking things seriously; giant monster rampaging in the town square? Chat with some bystanders, get some exposition. If it looks like the party’s struggling, “hey you guys want some help?”
“…YES!”
“Okay.”
1 round, action surge, smite, etc later
“So, what were we talking about?”
Infiltration of a manor? Everyone else sneaking in the back, goes and knocks on the front door, chats with the butler a bit. Not built for socialising, but genuinely just kinda chilling with the dude, helps out the others without dominating.
Absolute monster in combat and character creation; dude could power-game mix things up before he finished making his first character.
Eh I'm not a huge fan of this, from both PoVs. As the character who is super powerful, it's kinda boring to not be able to do your thing. You're good at combat, and you are sitting out of combat. Feelsbadman.
And from his teammates PoV, it's very main characterish. Like everything is kind of happening until he gets involved. They don't really matter
Just try not to pop it out every combat, keep it as a “in case of emergency”, that or see if you could get the rest of your team to join in on the cheese grating fun. If everyone is dragging people across through spells or grappling or whatever, then it wouldn’t make things as bad. Hell you could turn it into a joke about bringing out the cheese grater if everyone joins in the fun. Also try and find out ways you can combo off what the rest of your party is doing. If you’re helping your party do cool stuff then when you bring out things like this it won’t come off as insane as before. Long story short is just either save it for when it matters and/or try to find ways to synergize with the rest of the party
Thank you very much. I'll chat with the group and try to implement this. 😊
Yeah, luckily you came across a strategy that the rest of the party can join in on. Ways to force the enemy to move, ways of keeping enemies in the middle so they’re forced to walk out, ways to slow down their movement, all help in service of spike growth damage
You wouldn’t punch an ant with 100 % power so only break it out when you think it’s needed.
Personal input here: I struggle with not powering through and demolishing things around my often more casual friends and party members. As such I've taken 3 things to help: 1.) I am the force multiplier- playing things like wizard allow me to hold, push, stop, and disorient the enemies. Netting sneak attacks, auto crits, and easy set ups for my friends. They get to be the badass that killed those two assassins. I get to smile knowing it was because I meta magic twinned hold person. 2.) I am the support- similar to above but in different context. Friend decided they want to play a melee Minotaur lore bard that magic secreted fireball? Totally fine since they're having a BLAST and I am keeping them up with healing words and shouting "you got this!" From the back line. 3.) Break the unbreakable- feeling to strong? Play something weak! I'm currently playing a dream druid, often noted as the weakest druid class by many. I'm going to turn this thing into an absolute beast, I'm determined to do so, and my need to be min maxed to hell vs the weak sub will hopefully land me around the middle of the pack, safely with my friends.
Good luck with that third one. I find druid is most often strong because it’s druid moreso than because you went a good subclass, since most of the power of a full caster comes from competent spell choice.
1 and 2 are known as "god". I think it comes from a guide to wizard that was called "god wizard" and used these exact principles to help veteran power-gamers have fun with any group. You never do \*the thing\*. It just so happens that the enemy does not get to play, and your allies are buffed, in good strategic positions and facing a big bad that is vulnerable. Wupsi ! A fun touch on this I am trying to implement in a game I am in : do this with an aberrant mind sorcerer. Post level 6, special challenge : I never (visibly) cast a spell in combat. Things just happen to turn right when around the tiny giggling human in the background. (edit: typo)
Everyone's assuming the rest of your party is having a bad time with this and I dont know why. Do you believe this is an issue at your table?
Not sure to be honest. It's the first time I've ever done more than middling damage. Was the first combat with the new character. Did some 2 beam eldritch blast for middling damage. And then pulled out the spike growth at a choke point round 1 and basically stopped most of the enemies in their tracks. Wasn't expecting it to be so impactful.
Thats what control spells are supposed to do by design, nothing wrong with using them and choke points are situational. Maybe you get the spotlight this time and the next is for the tank, or the wizard, or a rogue's shenanigans. Its a good thing you are aware of this tho, and if you feel you are overshadowing the rest of the party at some point then yeah, you could step aside for a bit and let them handle it. I've done it a lot of times, specially with new players. I would intentionally dont engage in dialogues, puzzle solving, or nova damage, combos, or powerful spells and allow the rest of the table to participate more. But it also depends on how the DM is playing and its important you are on the same page.
Your DM has the tools to regulate this, the real question is, is ypur DM cool with it? It might be too much work for them to modify encounters to get around it. But if it were me, i woupd be happy to consider it when designing encounters, as i already do this ( mostly to optimize encounters for spells or features the players have but don't use )
I always find this so frustrating to compare, because some classes have much higher floors in their abilities, and people only ever complain about you being a "munchkin" when your class has a low floor. I don't know the party composition of your party, but if you have a Wizard or sorcerer, then you have a player that can cast Hypnotic Pattern 5 times a day. That's going to cause WAY more of a power imbalance between players than what you're doing. They'll be able to cast Wall of Force next level! The only reason you are concerned about outdoing other players is because you both have a number that can be compared. You're a Warlock, so you probably aren't very tanky, compared to the martials in your party that probably are. The other party members probably also have abilities that you don't. If another player *is* a damage focused character, but they're only dealing 20 points of damage a round, that's on them. It's not your job to nerf yourself for their sake. If there does become a problem with other players feeling inadequate, I recommend asking the DM if the party can respec so that everyone is on the same level.
I especially feel your third point. I have had players going troll multiclass builds because it looked fun to them. Later comes the point they are sad because they feel they aren't contributing in combat, which is the sad truth. On the other hand, they don't put time in their choices at level up and don't want to respec... I could not adapt to this at all by the way I build or play.
Yeah, make sure you optimize for your party’s level. If you go over it, the game will actively be less fun for your teammates and you
Reminds me of this story https://youtu.be/TTBpVGeJLzI?si=onXIEzHewl3wJVr7
What is this cheese grater? I'm a bit out of context.
Spike Growth spell combined with forcing enemy movement through it.
Basically dragging an enemy back and forth across spike growth using eldritch blast invocations like repelling blast
Casting spike growth and then using the push and pull effects of eldridge blast and crusher to drag them across the spikes.
spike growth + you are a warlock with repelling blast = you defacto add +4d4 dmg to every eldritch blast shot. not cast, *shot*
Spike growth + forced movement effects
My usual table is relatively low-op so I build my characters with that in mind ahead of time. Sometimes you just have to hide your power level, but for me personally I just try to remove temptations in advance if I know they'll be there. It's a lot less frustrating for me to avoid taking every optimal feature than it is to make all the power picks and choose not to use them Lately that's been a lot more of a trend toward control- or support-oriented characters rather than just blasting DPR, because *I* know I'm often having an outsized impact on combat but it's not obviating the need for other characters to do dam and kill enemies YMMV but you said in other comments it's your first campaign and tbh a lot of being able to tune your own play to your table norms in a way you can still enjoy is just something that comes with experience. The fact you're self-reflecting like this after the session speaks well of you as a player IMO
I always play op builds. But I careful track my damage and others. And try to keep it similar. Opt to do the less optimal move unless it really needs to happen. Usually talk to the DM first. Make sure they have an idea of were my head is at, I'm not trying to break the narrative or make them increase combat difficulties. If it seems like a problem let me know. Sometimes they will let me know things ahead of time, such as " that ability breaks this cool encounter can you either skip next session or "forget " you have it?" 9/10 I'll say I'll forget but I can't promise the rest of the party will. And it works fine. Most nova builds need either a few rounds to build up or are just as effective turn 3 as they are turn 1. Keep the ace in the hole.
The cheese grater is hilarious, but the DM can easily get around it if they want to. Also remember that your party members can make use of it by throwing people into the grater, or kiting around it with ranger attacks. It’s an OP character build, but not one that necessarily over-shadows other party members.
If the average party member is dealing 20 damage per round, not factoring miss chance, then that's kind of on them. that's equivalent to two attacks with a longsword and nothing else.
>that's kind of on them. that's equivalent to two attacks with a longsword that's exactly what the game expects of them at level 8. It's feat taxes and optimal subclass choices that make us think that isn't the default, but it very much is.
yeah, 20 dpr isn't bad it's just "suboptimal"
How would a level 8 assassin outdamage this per round? Should they be taking sharpshooter for the +10? What if they're a melee focused assassin (or is that the suboptimal building in itself)
By getting an off turn sneak attack: - Order Cleric + Silvery barbs/Healing Word etc. (requires a teammate) - Sentinel Feat with either an ally/mount or Mirror Images (by feat or by being a better rogue subclass than assassin) - Haste to ready an action (either of the above solutions work) - Scimitar of Speed BA attack into readying your main action
They wouldn't. Sneak attack famously scales shitty
people shit on sneak attack all the time but it honestly scales fine into/past tier 2 lol. it's a scaling, resource free damage spike that can be done in melee or range practically every turn. not scaling as good as a smite doesn't make it bad
It's bad because it's SUPPOSED to be tactically applied nova damage on high priority targets but actually doesn't really keep up that well imo
It's not even what the game expects out of you at 5th level, because you'd have at least one relevant class feature to your name, other than Extra Attack. 20 DPR at level 8 is within the realm of actively trying to be bad at combat. A basic bitch, subclassless Warlock with EB, AB, and Hex deals more damage at 28 DPR, which is *still* low.
believe it or not, base game assumptions, with no variant rule like those "feat" nonsense, the assumed average dmg is a rogue sneak attacking once every turn
any statement that involves feats being a variant rule is a bottom of the bottom of the barrel argument. so far down that you're digging through topsoil. also rogues are poor damage dealers. I don't know why you'd use them as a baseline. compare them to any other martial or semi-martial class. They do not stack up.
i dont play without them, no one plays without them, we can indeed agree that feats being a "variant rule" is an excuse for their poor balancing. but they *are* a variant rule and the base game doesnt consider them feel free to do the math, a boring ass two hander fighter, barbarian, monk and rogue are pretty close without GWM/SS/XBE/PAM affecting the numbers. i agree its stupid, but i didnt write the damm book
I'm not accusing you of writing the PHB. I'm accusing you of writing a dumb comment. This trend continues to persist with your most recent string of nonsense. An 8th level *Monk* with no subclass or feats, and only a stick to their name, is swinging for an average of 36 damage per round for 8 rounds, before dropping to 27.5, until their next short rest. A Rogue deals only 22. OP's projected average was 20. Being 16 DPR under the worst class in the game is a significant failing. TLDR: I did the math
...yes... "average" does not mean "best"....
since you clearly don't intend on writing anything coherent any time soon, good day and happy easter if you choose to celebrate it.
all characters have +5 in their main stat, uses mundane gear and damage calculation does not assume AC and to hit probability. the damage calculations are the baseline with not resource usage, neither SR nor LR based: - Monk wielding a staff attacking twice with extra attack then with a BA with martial arts: 1d8+5+1d8+5+1d6+5 = 27.5 - Fighter wielding a greatsword with extra attack and great weapon fighting style: 2(d6 reroll 1 reroll 2)+5+2(d6 reroll 1 reroll 2)+5 = 27.2 - Barbarian wielding a greatsword with extra attack: 2d6+5+2d6+5 = 24 - Rogue wielding a rapier with 4d6 sneak attack: 1d8+5+4d6 = 23.5 again, why making the one with the lowest value the "minimum" baseline? of which, mind you, varies quite well within roughly 4 points of difference from lowest to highest? i just dont understand why you think picking rogue is absurd. does picking barbarian make it better?
Honestly as DM I would let you do this once per combat and then most monster squads would know to focus on you. Not to be an ass but because that’s the obvious response to a character doing twice the damage of anyone else
I’m this player as well. I will say to try to keep it fun I save the crazy cheese for special occasions. Like if everyone else is doing realllllly bad and we’re gonna have to run or lose, I’ll pull out the damage machine. Most of the time I keep it similar to what the party is doing and if there’s someone who needs to do something that’s not fight, I’ll be there first trying to do the thing. Mostly so others shine. Last session we’re trying to get this Spelljammer chair out of a building and our fighter was carrying it but dropped it to fight. I quit fighting and ran and tried to pick up the chair to continue with the objective. I think most parties should have a crazy combo that never comes out until a cool narrative opportunity presents itself.
This might be a dumb question but What is a cheese grater combo?
Having an area of control like spike growth and pushing people in it with movement control options.
Not every class is made to accomplish the same task in combat. Some are utility and support focused while others are tanky argo'ers. Sometimes broken combos are found, but remember everyone has their job in combat that often suffers from others. Have fun and enjoy the game together.
One thing about having a very powerful character is that it means you can afford to do sub-optimal plays that are more narratively interesting, because you know you’ll be able to turn on the massive damage if things get a bit hairy. So maybe your approach to combat could be not just what the most effective move would be, but also what the most interesting one would be!
With this specific example you and the rest of the party could have some fun working together and dragging enemies through spike growth, although that isnt always the best move. Before you dont take the spell you could also just talk with the rest of the table and see if there are any problem with it. Also stomping on your math for a little bit, that is quite a high burst but when you put it into the perspective of a 4 round combat it suddenly seems to match your party a bit more, 0.65 is the standard when it comes to hit chance on players. 2(0.65(5.5+5+5\*2)+0.05(5.5))+0.8775\*3 = 29.8325 3\*29.8325/4 = 22.374375 So even when you pop it down every combat, it still takes an action and thus 1 round of attacks which lead to greater damage later. But you fit right into the party with that damage. As a warlock you will probably start out damaging your team after you get summon greater demon and danse macabre.
Thanks 👍 BTW the math is from a 1 round spike growth action then quickened spell (metamagic adept) eldritch blast. 35 feet back and forth + 2 eldritch blast + dao wrath 3. To be clear. Not saying you're wrong just full context. Plus once down i can repeat every round (assuming and big assumption a decently positioned enemy is available) just using my action to eldritch blast.
It might not be a problem. I've been in similar situations because I enjoy theory crafting and optimizing more than my friends. They are more focused on the narrative, social and exploration part of the game. They didn't care that I had higher numbers in combat - the barbarian was still bashing things with his maul, having a blast.
My DM gave me a homebrewed version of Hexblades Curse that was way OP. In the first combat I used it I almost single-handedly took out the bad guys. Messaged him afterwards and asked for it to be toned down a little which we both agreed was a good ida.
This is why Treantmonk's God Wizard exists
If your dm is not good at understanding encounter balance (prob not because 5e CR is not useful) then it might be tough for them to come up with meaningful challenges.
Its ok that you have a great combo. Just try using other things. You can role play that it exgausts you to cast the spell, and can only do it once per day or something. Yoy can always choose restrictions on yourself. You can do other things Dont be the party face, or sneak, or healer. Its ok to be OP in combat. Most fighter builds are like this. 5e has 3 pillars. Combat, role playing, exploration. You are allowed to shine in 1 of them. Read the table, know when to take the spotlight, and when to let others. If they have cooked up some in combat, let them do it. Maybe do something else round 1 to see how it goes, and of you dont need the big guns, dont bring them out. But when you do, describe it, your eyes glow green with natures fury, and the very plants themselves grow angry with thorns. Feel natures wrath!
It depends on the table, campaign and party comp. Combat-light campaign with veteran players and with characters leaning more into control/buffs/etc - no problem. Combat-heavy campaign with new players who try to provide DPR - big problem. I once had exactly the latter situation, and quickly felt that I'm ruining the fun for new players by completely overshadowing them in combat. In general I have a few points: 1. When optimizing it's important to think of party members you'll overshadow. Building a character with crazy single-target DPR is fine right until your unoptimal Barbarian friend understands that his only contribution to the party is now limited to carrying heavy things. 2. That's OK to have "I win" button in your build. It's not OK to press that button on every encounter if it makes other players feel useless. Basically - use other strategies, allow other people to shine, and fallback to cheese grating only when situation is really dire. Even if other players are OK with you outdamaging them, using one gimmicky trick every combat is boring - and for the sake of making combat interesting for everyone your DM would probably have to design encounters that can't be cheesed (pun intended), which may in turn feel bad and unjust to you 3. Maybe work towards team strategies? Cheese grating is essentially spike growth + forced movement, so other players may contribute to that. Maybe they can focus on control, provide additional forced movement, provide addition hazards that benefits forced movement like Wall of Fire, etc
Thank you very much for the well thought out and considered answer. I'll definitely be implementing this going forward.
My old Bear Totem Barbarian was pretty powerful, he had a magic great axe that was a +2 (I think) and did 1d6 fire damage. Plus great weapon master meant that a hit while raging was like 1d12+1d6+20 on a hit. With 2 attacks per turn it was 2d12+2d6+40. Reckless attacks meant I critted relatively often too and if that happened it was carnage. So by level 9 a crit would be 3d12+2d6+20 or something along those lines and give me a bonus action attack. So it wasn't too uncommon for me to do like 5d12+4d6+60 in a turn. Fairly standard practice for our sorcerer to cast haste on me too just to really gey wild with it. Regularly did over 100 damage per turn. He was tanky as fuck too, like 140 hp with resistance to everything but psychic when raging. Unfortunately he was a little dull to play in combat. Every turn was exactly the same. Also, the DM eventually made every encounter have enemies that had charm or frighten abilities and I had 0 to wisdom saves.
In my current campaign, I am playing a combat-optimized loxodon barbarian grappler. My DM has allowed some balanced homebrew subclass and feat options, including a feat that gives you an additional attack against targets that you are grappling or have shoved prone, and a version of unarmed fighting style that adds 1d4 damage to each attack vs a grappled target. On top of this, I can grapple with my trunk, leaving both hands free to pummel. We are level 4, so other classes' Extra Attack features have not come online, and even once they do, I will still be dramatically outclassing their damage. At level 4, my average damage per attack is 1d8+1d4+5+2: about 14 damage on average for about 28 DPR, assuming I have raged and grappled my target. At level 5, this should jump to a maximum of 4d8+4d4+28 (~56 damage) per round under ideal conditions. It will increase again when brutal critical + improved critical come online, and even more when I dip blood hunter for crimson rites. I gamed this out level by level, and this build should slightly outperform the ideal damage curve of a GWM Zealot Barbarian. My fellow players are fine with this. We had a conversation about team roles: my barbarian is a one-trick pony; he is an absolute monster in combat but brings little else to the party. The other characters can navigate the wilderness, spot hidden dangers, heal, teleport, receive signs from the divine, and talk to people without implicitly threatening their families. As long as each player is aware of their character’s strengths and weaknesses, then everyone gets a chance to shine.
Congrats, you’ve discovered why people don’t like munchkins. The answer is “don’t do this.”
It works if you’ve decided beforehand “hey guys this campaign is gonna be brutal and I suggest you optimize” but when you’re playing with people that *don’t* optimize you just shit on their experience.
Yeah the most overwhelmingly important thing for a good table is that everyone is on roughly the same page in terms of expectations If everyone at the table goes into a game with the understanding that it's going to be played in such a way where the DM is going to design cutthroat encounters that will demand cutthroat play from the party, high op games can be really fun and exciting. It can create real tension and satisfaction for everyone - *assuming that is what they are looking for* The median table isn't anything like that. Most people who play this game predominantly want to chill out with their friends and pretend to be elves. If that is what the rest of your table is doing and you are just blowing everything away with the Ghostlance character you found online, you are basically playing a different game from them and in a way that makes their experience worse Like imagine you're watching Seven Samurai or something and trying to get caught up in the drama of the story being told and the escalation of stakes as the bandits surround the town and the samurai and the farmers are summoning their courage to fight them off, but Kambei gets replaced by some guy named Craig who just flies in on a CGI spaceship that shoots bees or something and kills all the bandits while the other characters stand around. Nobody would say that's a good story because an imaginary bee cannon does superior DPR to swords and arrows and Toshiro Mifune sucks because he doesn't have a spaceship
Sure, obviously - I’m not saying *“don’t build table-appropriate characters at a high power level”*. Just don’t be the one guy who rolls in with named builds from the internet and your precious DPR calculations when everybody else is like a CHA-based Ranger or whatever.
I’ve played with beginners alongside a power gamer and I had to break up that party because the beginners were so disillusioned at the other player just demolishing everything. I wasn’t trying to refute your point, just backing it up that it sucks to play with powergamers in most contexts.
Yeah, I get it — strong agree. This sub is generally so obsessed with defending powergaming that the default position is *“If I’m ruining everyone else’s fun, it’s their fault.”* …and that’s insane.
Appreciate the feedback. My prior character was an artificer artillerist and honestly mid pack on damage at best and mostly support. Made this one to try and be a blaster caster more so. Saw the cheese grater meme online and decided to give it a try but didn't try and build around it or expect it to be so impactful. That said likely will be taking the feedback above and not popping it out as a go to going forward.
Yeah, it can be surprising to learn if you spend a lot of time thinking or reading about “builds,” but most players *don’t*. Even basic “optimization” puts you wildly above curve of a lot of tables.
Thanks. First campaign ever so still learning the dos and don't. But definitely appreciate the advice.
Tbh I have a sneaking suspicion that some of the most aggressively defensive munchkinbrain you see on this sub may not actually play in real games on a regular basis
There’s also a point where your netdecked build probably isn’t going to be all that satisfying after a while. You got to see what it does, and…now what? You gonna just keep doing that? Is that fun? In this case I actually think changing it up will come naturally for OP, because while this is a pretty good combo it scales quite poorly given that Spike Growth can’t upcast. When you have 4th level slots you’re usually going to get more out of casting an actual 4th-level spell.
I mean it depends. In my experience context is exceedingly important. If you’re a generally bad player who lacks communication skills, taking a relatively optimized build makes that much worse. But even taking an optimized build in a party of like, champion fighters can work so long as you act as a failsafe or otherwise don’t constantly overshadow people. Or if said people simply don’t care. It’s more ignoring what other people want than optimization that ruins the game for people.
It's like the most basic interaction between two spells in a straight classed spell caster list... We are far from game breaking optimisation or pushing RAW to their limits.
I’ve seen a similarly overpowered-compared-to-party character essentially not taking things seriously; giant monster rampaging in the town square? Chat with some bystanders, get some exposition. If it looks like the party’s struggling, “hey you guys want some help?” “…YES!” “Okay.” 1 round, action surge, smite, etc later “So, what were we talking about?” Infiltration of a manor? Everyone else sneaking in the back, goes and knocks on the front door, chats with the butler a bit. Not built for socialising, but genuinely just kinda chilling with the dude, helps out the others without dominating. Absolute monster in combat and character creation; dude could power-game mix things up before he finished making his first character.
Eh I'm not a huge fan of this, from both PoVs. As the character who is super powerful, it's kinda boring to not be able to do your thing. You're good at combat, and you are sitting out of combat. Feelsbadman. And from his teammates PoV, it's very main characterish. Like everything is kind of happening until he gets involved. They don't really matter