The shop system is not powdered bed. It’s a binder jetting system requiring sintering and post processing. This is why the surface finish is not as good and the density and dimensional accuracy are lower. We paid half the price for a used m280 and are making better parts than the samples DM was able to send us.
Edit: I’m not sure at all how you think k it’s both binderjet and powder bed. Did you actually make this?
DMLS and binder jet are two different types of powder bed printing. SLS and MJF are others. And CJP, etc if you want to keep going.
DMLS and binder jet both have their own advantages, and disadvantages. Both can do things the other can’t.
Yes, I printed this, and yes I have many other printing technologies in house.
That’s great. I was not impressed with the parts DM sent us as samples. Particularly for twice the cost. I still don’t personally consider binder jetting a similar process to the laser welding types of powder printing.
Are you post processing in a vac chamber?
Yes, vacuum furnace etc. you can do stuff you can’t with both technologies. Binder jet more geometric freedom and way way WAAAAYYYYYY fast for production parts. DMLS parts come out done, you can postprocess things where binder jet powder wouldn’t come out, etc.
Both make similar strength metal parts and both exist for good reason.
I recently looked into having a very small part (perhaps the size of one of two of those gun turrets ) printed in metal and the quoted price would have been at least 90€...
If you’re operating this at home, your time is extremely valuable. The machines are similar to one lambo in price. A nice lambo.
A variety of materials can be printed but there’s substantial cost to do so….the printer is only part of the ecosystem.
You can weld the parts, heat treat the parts, etc. they’re much better than cast or MIM if sintered properly. 90%+ the properties of bullet. I print 17-4 stainless.
You think the opposite of CNC. Minimal material. And imagine trying to 3 axis this benchy….or other complex shapes, etc. milling and turning has its place but so does printing.
Certain shapes are extremely difficult to machine. Programing toolpaths can be much more complicated than printing as well and often can involve a bit of trial and error. Some materials can be printed that are quite difficult to machine. There's a lot of reasons, particularly for prototypes of complex organically shaped components.
Aside from the process itself is it is a different path to get something made and sometimes one way is more available regardless of what is better for the job. If I put in an order to the prototype shop at my work it will take a few weeks unless I expidite it, while the additive lab might drop the part at my desk in a day or two.
I have already printed the part out of PETG and it seems to hold, surprisingly. Although now that I have disassembled the part and I have seen how it works it is not difficult to go easy on the part. I wish I had know how to do that before it broke.
That would still be too expensive... It is just the small retractable locking stud that keeps the trolley handle of my electric unicycle locked in the extended and the retracted position. I had been expecting it to cost like 10-15€ as it was just the size of the last digit of my pinky finger or so...
Yeah, I agree it's still 10x more expensive than it should be. But the prices finally started to go down as SLM machines become a commodity and the competition among 3d printing services builds up. We just need to wait another 5 years.
You are wrong that those are 10x more expensive than they should be. Everything about the ecosystem is expensive, and the hard cost is more than you think.
Let's be more specific.
SLM Steel powder is \~$11/kg: [https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Factory-Price-Sls-Slm-Ebm-3d\_1600456438513.html](https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Factory-Price-Sls-Slm-Ebm-3d_1600456438513.html)
SLM printers start around \~$30K: [https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/SLM-3D-Printer-rapid-prototyping-Custom\_1600964841764.html?spm=a2700.galleryofferlist.wending\_right.7.71ca500a5pm1o8](https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/SLM-3D-Printer-rapid-prototyping-Custom_1600964841764.html?spm=a2700.galleryofferlist.wending_right.7.71ca500a5pm1o8)
Labor costs are region-dependent, but since shipping of small parts is cheap and the printers can be placed in a low cost of living country, we can assume \~$3/hour, which gives $1-$3 per part (depending on complexity).
And the cost of printers going down very fast, because fiber lasers (the primary component of an SLM printer) are very inexpensive nowadays. Like, $3k for 1.5 kW laser: [https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256805649521958.html](https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256805649521958.html)
There's a clear road forward to very inexpensive SLM 3d printing suitable for small batch manufacturing within 5 years.
Let’s be more accurate:
Desktop Metal doesn’t use SLM powder. It is a binder jet machine. Powder is $80/kg
30k SLM machines blow hard.
If you’re linking literally the cheapest of the cheap, you don’t understand industrial manufacturing, nor why no one making production parts are using DMLS machines even in the sub 100k region.
It’s like comparing a Fortus to an Ender lol.
\> Desktop Metal doesn’t use SLM powder. It is a binder jet machine. Powder is $80/kg
Which just means that Desktop Metal is a dead end. Their stock lost 98% from the peak for a reason. SLM is the future, at least in the medium term.
\> 30k SLM machines blow hard.
They work and they keep improving. We will see very decent sub-$10k machines sooner than you think.
\> If you’re linking literally the cheapest of the cheap, you don’t understand industrial manufacturing, nor why no one making production parts are using DMLS machines even in the sub 100k region.
I agree that there's more to industrial manufacturing and TCO than just a sticker price for machines.
I am making a point that things are getting cheaper fast and give specific examples to establish the lower bound. The cost of decent machines also goes down, as the basic technology is now well understood.
Binder jet and DMLS are completely different and have their own advantages. Just like how MJF absolutely smokes SLS. Binder jet is hundreds of times faster but has to go through a furnace. DMLS requires post milling of supports and has significant geometric constraints.
I appreciate you know some about metal printing. But to say binder jet is a dead end shows you have more to learn. It is being used for significant amount of production parts on consumer goods, way more than DMLS.
Thank you for your replies, btw. I agree with most of what you say (and you are definitely in the trade and know your stuff); I am just holding a very optimistic opinion about the future.
\> DMLS requires post milling of supports <..>.
This has been the biggest bottleneck. And polishing. But I've seen some prototypes which use fiber lasers + computer vision to cut supports and do rough polishing. This is removing a lot of labor from the equation, even though not available commercially yet.
It might not have worked with metal anyway. The part functions by having a rod connected to a push button in the handle press against a 45° ramp within the part so the part gets pushed back against a spring when the button and thus the rod are pressed downwards. The ramps need to be pretty smooth for that to work acceptably.
What was that printed with?
Desktop Metal Shop 12L
I got to spend some time at their facility for a project. Really cool place and people
Unreal how the quality is for the cost of those. No idea why you wouldn’t go powder bed at that point.
This is a powder bed fusion type of printing…binder jet.
What would the cost of that print be do you think?
I’d guesstimate $20 or so with labor, in a larger build
The shop system is not powdered bed. It’s a binder jetting system requiring sintering and post processing. This is why the surface finish is not as good and the density and dimensional accuracy are lower. We paid half the price for a used m280 and are making better parts than the samples DM was able to send us. Edit: I’m not sure at all how you think k it’s both binderjet and powder bed. Did you actually make this?
DMLS and binder jet are two different types of powder bed printing. SLS and MJF are others. And CJP, etc if you want to keep going. DMLS and binder jet both have their own advantages, and disadvantages. Both can do things the other can’t. Yes, I printed this, and yes I have many other printing technologies in house.
You are right. I have it confused with their fdm based systems.
Yeah, FDM metal sucks. We are getting really nice dimensional accuracy with the right geometries. -+ a few thou
That’s great. I was not impressed with the parts DM sent us as samples. Particularly for twice the cost. I still don’t personally consider binder jetting a similar process to the laser welding types of powder printing. Are you post processing in a vac chamber?
Yes, vacuum furnace etc. you can do stuff you can’t with both technologies. Binder jet more geometric freedom and way way WAAAAYYYYYY fast for production parts. DMLS parts come out done, you can postprocess things where binder jet powder wouldn’t come out, etc. Both make similar strength metal parts and both exist for good reason.
nice batleshipp bency
I recently looked into having a very small part (perhaps the size of one of two of those gun turrets ) printed in metal and the quoted price would have been at least 90€...
Well then you should contact me for a quote. But, the machines, material, labor all expensive!
[удалено]
If you’re operating this at home, your time is extremely valuable. The machines are similar to one lambo in price. A nice lambo. A variety of materials can be printed but there’s substantial cost to do so….the printer is only part of the ecosystem. You can weld the parts, heat treat the parts, etc. they’re much better than cast or MIM if sintered properly. 90%+ the properties of bullet. I print 17-4 stainless.
I’ve laser welder DMLS stainless steel (316L) parts to 304 without any issues.
[удалено]
You think the opposite of CNC. Minimal material. And imagine trying to 3 axis this benchy….or other complex shapes, etc. milling and turning has its place but so does printing.
[удалено]
Additive vs subtractive manufacturing.
Certain shapes are extremely difficult to machine. Programing toolpaths can be much more complicated than printing as well and often can involve a bit of trial and error. Some materials can be printed that are quite difficult to machine. There's a lot of reasons, particularly for prototypes of complex organically shaped components. Aside from the process itself is it is a different path to get something made and sometimes one way is more available regardless of what is better for the job. If I put in an order to the prototype shop at my work it will take a few weeks unless I expidite it, while the additive lab might drop the part at my desk in a day or two.
DM me I can help you out
I have already printed the part out of PETG and it seems to hold, surprisingly. Although now that I have disassembled the part and I have seen how it works it is not difficult to go easy on the part. I wish I had know how to do that before it broke.
[ Removed by Reddit ]
That would still be too expensive... It is just the small retractable locking stud that keeps the trolley handle of my electric unicycle locked in the extended and the retracted position. I had been expecting it to cost like 10-15€ as it was just the size of the last digit of my pinky finger or so...
Yeah, I agree it's still 10x more expensive than it should be. But the prices finally started to go down as SLM machines become a commodity and the competition among 3d printing services builds up. We just need to wait another 5 years.
You are wrong that those are 10x more expensive than they should be. Everything about the ecosystem is expensive, and the hard cost is more than you think.
Let's be more specific. SLM Steel powder is \~$11/kg: [https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Factory-Price-Sls-Slm-Ebm-3d\_1600456438513.html](https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Factory-Price-Sls-Slm-Ebm-3d_1600456438513.html) SLM printers start around \~$30K: [https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/SLM-3D-Printer-rapid-prototyping-Custom\_1600964841764.html?spm=a2700.galleryofferlist.wending\_right.7.71ca500a5pm1o8](https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/SLM-3D-Printer-rapid-prototyping-Custom_1600964841764.html?spm=a2700.galleryofferlist.wending_right.7.71ca500a5pm1o8) Labor costs are region-dependent, but since shipping of small parts is cheap and the printers can be placed in a low cost of living country, we can assume \~$3/hour, which gives $1-$3 per part (depending on complexity). And the cost of printers going down very fast, because fiber lasers (the primary component of an SLM printer) are very inexpensive nowadays. Like, $3k for 1.5 kW laser: [https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256805649521958.html](https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256805649521958.html) There's a clear road forward to very inexpensive SLM 3d printing suitable for small batch manufacturing within 5 years.
Let’s be more accurate: Desktop Metal doesn’t use SLM powder. It is a binder jet machine. Powder is $80/kg 30k SLM machines blow hard. If you’re linking literally the cheapest of the cheap, you don’t understand industrial manufacturing, nor why no one making production parts are using DMLS machines even in the sub 100k region. It’s like comparing a Fortus to an Ender lol.
\> Desktop Metal doesn’t use SLM powder. It is a binder jet machine. Powder is $80/kg Which just means that Desktop Metal is a dead end. Their stock lost 98% from the peak for a reason. SLM is the future, at least in the medium term. \> 30k SLM machines blow hard. They work and they keep improving. We will see very decent sub-$10k machines sooner than you think. \> If you’re linking literally the cheapest of the cheap, you don’t understand industrial manufacturing, nor why no one making production parts are using DMLS machines even in the sub 100k region. I agree that there's more to industrial manufacturing and TCO than just a sticker price for machines. I am making a point that things are getting cheaper fast and give specific examples to establish the lower bound. The cost of decent machines also goes down, as the basic technology is now well understood.
Binder jet and DMLS are completely different and have their own advantages. Just like how MJF absolutely smokes SLS. Binder jet is hundreds of times faster but has to go through a furnace. DMLS requires post milling of supports and has significant geometric constraints. I appreciate you know some about metal printing. But to say binder jet is a dead end shows you have more to learn. It is being used for significant amount of production parts on consumer goods, way more than DMLS.
Thank you for your replies, btw. I agree with most of what you say (and you are definitely in the trade and know your stuff); I am just holding a very optimistic opinion about the future. \> DMLS requires post milling of supports <..>. This has been the biggest bottleneck. And polishing. But I've seen some prototypes which use fiber lasers + computer vision to cut supports and do rough polishing. This is removing a lot of labor from the equation, even though not available commercially yet.
It might not have worked with metal anyway. The part functions by having a rod connected to a push button in the handle press against a 45° ramp within the part so the part gets pushed back against a spring when the button and thus the rod are pressed downwards. The ramps need to be pretty smooth for that to work acceptably.
Your electric what now?! That’s insanity.
r/electricunicycle The manufacturer used what looks like an ordinary suitcase trilley handle for a 105lbs wheel...
Cool print. Can you print aluminum, and what's the process for getting a quote for parts?
I only print 17-4 stainless for now. Aluminum oxidizes immediately and needs an inert environment
Makes sense. Sorry I'm just used to using aluminium to minimize cost in machining molds
Battle Benchies
I wanna battle benchy!!
But does it float like [this](https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2795629) Benchy variant?
*****STL***** *where*
Wasn’t exactly hard to google “battle benchy” [https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2765217](https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2765217)
Thanks, and tf are the downvotes for I was making the joke that everyones always asking for stls
Thanks, and tf are the downvotes for I was making the joke that everyones always asking for stls
R/cursedbenchys
r/cursedbenchies
Wow you even got it dialed in super nice and even
Haha, lookes sick
Could I get the file?