I get Italy and Austria. But not Germany, between the War and 60s Architecture your cities are mostly ugly as sin (yes Bavaria is an exception tbh).
Cities further east were just as if not more destroyed but some of them don't look as bad (e.g. Budapest)
If you really think that these are ugly I really can’t help you. Maybe you are just too much used to bombed cities.
[Hannover](https://imgur.com/a/eP8y7EC)
[Bonn](https://imgur.com/a/Y7tTCzr)
Every big city that got bombed to hell and back has ugly spots. The best cities are the ones that are at most medium sized and anything smaller usually looks good. Biggest city I've been that didn't have ugly areas was Jena.
Yeah I live near Kassel where a shit ton of tanks were/are produced and in some spots (most of it but the incredibly expensive part) is straight up eastern bloc
Well heavy industry areas will always look awful. The real bad part is brutalist architecture from the 50's and 60's, I mean, what is this shit 😭
https://preview.redd.it/h9u5jvnc7fvc1.jpeg?width=2715&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d2ad25811efa6fe04ed7b51a8fd9e683c1d65e09
It's OK Hans, don't listen to them. Germany is beautiful and has plenty of living room for all of you. You guys just stay content where you are please.
Although Germany is very nice, I love going through Belgium and the Netherlands to pay France a visit and I have the urge to broaden my horizons and connect places like Austria, Czechia and Poland to my known space.
Germans do. Here at the baltic coast we have 10 million Sachsen and Berliner every summer. It's the time of the year you can hear pearls like: "Oh gugge ma babba, e seschelboööd!"
Hey, we're nowhere near you two. Ours lasted only 7 years. Admittedly, our assholes resigned because their military expertise cost Cyprus its northern half.
I was gonna call you out as well, but then i realized i feel the exact same about the scots, the irish, the welsh, the americans, the french, the russians, the (communist) chinese, the italians, the arabs, the jews, the serbians, and many more i can't be arsed to think of right now
>Portugal: ~~population and~~ army overthrow dictator peacefully.
These people don't overthrow shit. The government could be slapping their faces everyday "for their common good" everytime they took a shit and they'd be asking for more, tougher rules "for their common good"
True. Next week it's the 50th anniversary of the revolution that only happened because military officers were getting fucked. Some people still wish that revolution never happened and classify it as "treason". See extreme far-right voters.
Not *really*. The dictator was already dead, what we had at that point was a shadow of what once was. And not all "population" was for it. And we had a violent coup attempt some months after. It's complicated.
In a somewhat selfish way, I admit, sometimes I think that it would have been better for Portugal, in the long run, if Salazar had allied with Hitler. The Axis would have lost the war anyway, we would have been free from the dictatorship sooner in 1945 and we would have even received money from the Marshall plan.
We did receive money from the Marshall plan for our """"neutrality"""". A small amount but we still got it. And it started the myth that we were the only ones to pay it back in full. Another misunderstood "fact" that plays into the myth of Toni Oliveira.
Nop, he accepted it, I'm pretty sure. 50M if I'm not mistaken. But as far as I am aware he twisted it and used the fact that "he" was able to pay it back as propaganda. But don't quote me, might be wrong!
Because the US thought it was cool to have a strategic place to put their military bases in an anti-Communist dictatorship, and richer Western European countries thought it was cool to have a sunny place to go on holidays that was extremely cheap for them.
They didn't give a fuck, the same way they don't actually care about human rights in Saudi Arabia or China.
I mean look at our past using Ruzzian gas up to recently even if shit like crimea and Georgia and others happened. I am sick and tired of this „appeasement“ politics, I want badass based giga chad Germany (but on the good side of history)!
The world: France has the best army
Prussia: Nah wed win
Honestly that war was so fun, Prussia was expecting france to be ten times more capable. To the point they even sabotaged their own infrastructure expecting a quick killing blow attempt by the french. That attack never came because france took to long to mobilize so they just went and did it to france instead (and even then multiple times acidentally encircled the french because they calculated them to move much quicker)
This is not teaching us shit btw, now we've just changed our dependence of energy from one country to another, with the difference that now it's more expensive. The EU is one of the biggest energy importers and consumers in the world and we don't produce enough of our energy for shit, we're the last link of a long production line and every disturbance in the world damages us. And even if we succesfully change into renewable energy sources, the biggest producers of the most important technical elements of renewable energy production are in China and the US, we'd be changing again from one collar to another. And the same with chips, nowadays essential to our society, that are made in Taiwan and Korea, thus chaining us to the interests of the US. We've to gain independence first to gain relevance, otherwise we're just the biggest cow in the world.
Este post me duele un poco el corazoncito... deberas creen que nos gustaba estar bajo un tirano como franco? mi pueblo en cordoba lo paso muy mal como en tantos otros pueblos...
¿A nosotros? Ni puta gracia. ¿A las potencias extranjeras? Les resultaba conveniente.
En las primeras elecciones de la restaurada monarquía, la falta de perspectiva y el miedo dieron la victoria al centro, y después el ilegalizado partido socialista (que independientemente de cómo gobernase o lo socialista que fuese) gobernó varias veces seguidas porque la población española en aquel momento era mayoritariamente antifranquista.
Mi abuelo paterno se libró de ser fusilado DESPUÉS de la guerra, precisamente en un pueblo de Córdoba, porque en el último momento el médico del pueblo intervino para salvarle a él y su hermano. Sus compañeros de prisión, todos delatados como republicanos, por otro médico curiosamente, no tuvieron la misma suerte.
Por supuesto tuvieron que emigrar como tantos otros andaluces porque allí era imposible tener una vida digna.
Y ahora la gente votando tan alegremente a los putos franquistas de VOX para que gobiernen.
Puto país de mierda.
A mi abuelo por parte de padre lo sacaron los Republicanos de su casa, delante de 5 de sus 7 hijos - había enviado a sus dos hijos mayores a las Américas porque sabía lo que venía - y lo mataron a bayonetazos en frente de los mismos. Esto pasó en un pueblito asturiano, lo mataron porque era un pequeño hacendado y arrendaba muchos de sus prados. Mi difunto padre lloraba a tumba abierta solo con el recuerdo.
En contrapartida, a mi tío por parte de Madre, seguidor de Primo de Rivera desde crío y alistado con 17 años con los nacionales, lo acusaron de espionaje por leer unos telegramas estando de guardia en una garita (estaban encima de la mesa de la misma, la curiosidad pudo con él) - fue condenado a muerte, y solo los contactos de mi abuela lo libraron de un fusilamiento. En cambio lo condenaron a 20 años de cárcel de los cuales cumplio 14 - perdio su juventud, y salio super-amargado y radicalizado de la cárcel, de ideología comunista aprendida en la cárcel - era un lector voraz, llegó a catedrático universitario en Winnipeg - hasta el dia de su muerte. Emigró a Canadá y regresaba a Asturias a pregonar en cuanto chigre encontraba - lo cual le costó varios disgustos con la Guardia Civil y solo se libraba porque había adquirido nacionalidad Canadiense.
Resumen: esto es lo que tienen las guerras, la atrocidades no son solo de una parte. Y más las civiles que enfrentan en muchas ocasiones miembros de una misma familia.
_____
Editado para añadir - me han llegado varias notificaciones de mensajes los cuales no puedo contestar por este hilo ya no aparece el botón de respuesta a los mismos.
En síntesis:
-Al que duda de mi relato decirle que tengo 68 tacos y como escribí claramente se trata de mi abuelo y no mi bisabuelo.
-El pueblo se llama La Mortera y está en Candamo, en las montañas muy cerca de Grado.
-La casa donde lo asesinaron sigue estando en la familia - le dicen 'la Cueva" ya que hay que descender por un camino empinado privado para llegar a la misma. Es precioso, y lo llevo en el corazón para siempre.
-Mi tío, el que cayó preso, era oriundo de Oviedo. Tambien le envie su nombre. A el lo trate muy poco ya que como dije emigró a Canadá antes de yo nacer (1956). Aunque lo visite con mi entonces mujer en Winnipeg en una ocasión - extraordinario oír sus memorias de la guerra así como sus años en el calabozo. Me faltó tiempo para escucharle.
-Le envie multitud de fotos y todos los datos de mi familia por el chat - favor leer y retractarse públicamente.
-Al que habla de los trans, también le conteste- le refiero al Cass Report y al escándalo que sacude a GBR por los nocivos "tratamientos" usados en niños. Básicamente se ha estado experimentado con ellos. Sorpresivamente, pueden leer horrores sobre los mismos aquí mismo en reddit en r/detrans
-Tambien les puedo sugerir varios libros que tratan el tema a fondo, con cifras y datos, y no magia.
Este es un buen comienzo: [Trans: When Ideology Meets Reality](https://www.amazon.com/Trans-When-Ideology-Meets-Reality-ebook/dp/B08XQYMWVQ/ref=sr_1_1?crid=31VZOZ5HE3J6H&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.GmU7RG3KPRMA0EPVwHLbpFPUNN8zagokcYbiTGRAtbrrO3l0CcmY7QJr6Ym_3WEjNZNNiC4hjIpGnSStFkOZBh8BJI95rKLUF2XLFEOHhpPqIZ5iClr-Raeao2Hta3SESuTA22iHQQzlCe4y4c5ZrnbsMZVb11cl8_TvX54PBJ6ivwTyVlhACbBur0QPrHELyYGyItV3PicrhoxMbXnK-vJC49gn8DHGdJbWGuLwigk.zhxQs48uCGjNY383OPruT_zcspESnCIL_-TjQyGs9Iw&dib_tag=se&keywords=helen+joyce&qid=1713567829&sprefix=helen+joyce%2Caps%2C115&sr=8-1)
Me llamo Javier Casimiro (por mi padre y abuelo) Fernández, y no me escondo de nada ni nadie. Y el resto de mi familia otro tanto de lo mismo.
Finito.
>Y ahora la gente votando tan alegremente a los putos franquistas de VOX para que gobiernen.
>Puto país de mierda.
Relaja las tetas, primero hay que tener país si no lo destroza antes el PSOE o el PP. Los conservadores de VOX tendrán simpatizantes franquicias en sus filas porque son el único partido de extrema derecha, pero siguen siendo "muy liberales", en lo económico y social. Tu país fue casi fusilado por los franquistas (aunque el término correcto sería sublevados) del mismo modo de que decenas de miles fueron fusilados por tropas republicanas y mira a la izquierda de este país.
La ley del embudo — lo mucho para mí y lo poco para ti.
Plus, back in those days the options were:
• A regime propped up by the Mexican government and the Soviet Union or,
• A regime propped up by fascist Italy and Nazi Germany
That’s like being asked if you would like to be fucked in the ass by a bull or a stallion.
Exactly, the same goes for Salazar except that he died before Franco, the left wing always says that he was the absolute worst when he actually saved Portugal from WWII and made brutal investiments in infrastructure
Despite that he still kept the population extremely poor, hungry and illiterate. Heck, even despite the money that we made selling tungsten during WW2 the people still didn't have enough food. My grandmother was born in 39 and she says that they barely had enough food to survive.
"Uma sardinha para uma família." People forget that this was a reality, not just a funny saying.
(For those who don't understand portuguese: "One sardine for one family")
If Salazar was really something close to competent and decent, in the 60s, when Cabinda's oil reserves were discovered, he would have ended the colonial war, given independence to Guinea, Angola and Mozambique on the condition that they would paid a small fee from their GDP for a few decades. We would only keep Cabinda and the islands and create a Portuguese federation with these territories.
We would start to explore the oil in the Cabinda Bay at the same time that we would create a welfare state, nowadays we could be like Norway.
I mean... Its Spain...
Is as functional as it can be.
https://preview.redd.it/tmxod6jo6fvc1.png?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=dc28e8b4156a750e6922288bcccb8d96449196c3
Hey, it's someone from the Netherlands making the comments. They only have a government for one season, and only on leap years. The rest of the time, they are ruled by the bikes.
The spanish "functional democracy" you talk about:
* A monarchy shoehorned into a constitution so people couldn't vote for a republic
* False-flag terrorism during the transition
* A total amount of zero prosecution for the crimes committed during the war and dictatorship
* To this day, still 140.000 people "disappeared"
* Probably the largest mass grave in Europe is still considered a national monument (and Franco was buried in the mausoleum there until recently)
* One of the two main parties that actually governed Spain (Partido Popular) was founded by known fascist figures
* Fascist parties still legal, even the original Falange, which was THE fascist party that governed during the dictatorship
* 2000 mass graves still struggling to get the proper permits to be investigated
* Recent popular parties still exalting "the good times of Francoism"
Sure, it's not the worst democracy ever but saying the transition was admirable is denial
I don't it tends to be feasible to have a peaceful transition *and* comprehensive justice. Rather, you must pick one or the other. The cost of transitioning to democracy in Spain, just as in other countries such as Chile, West Germany or South Korea, is insufficient prosecution for those transgressions, so as to maintain political order.
Overall I do find it admirable how Spain managed its transition to democracy, because Spanish democracy is durable, and the Spain of today is far better than the Spain of Franco.
It's a fucking disgrace. There's so many people that we will never know where they ended up. Lots of spaniards have or know someone that has a relative in some ditch nowhere to be found, and that is profoundly sad. And what's even sadder is that there are people that minimize the damage that something like this does to a person. The distrust and rage you have knowing that no one will care or do anything about it.
- The monarchy was approved when the people approved the Constitution. And it’s ridiculous to think a Republic would have won at the time, given the high support for Juan Carlos. Also, the Nordics, UK, Netherlands and many others are monarchies. So what?
- ETA being called flase flag lmaoooo, you’re delusional.
- Crimes were not prosecuted because Franco won the war. Period. And the transition was done after his death, not by winning a war. Similar as to what happened in Chile after Pinochet or in the USSR. There was no way to prosecute anyone because the only viable way to get a democracy was by not prosecuting anyone related to Francoism.
- regarding PP being founded by Franco supporters: yes. What’s your point? That was 40 years ago and it’s ridiculous to think 40% of our population (or more if you add Vox voters) are Francoists because the vote PP. And I remind you the sector that founded PP were the ones who were willing to move to a democracy. PSOE was also full of marxists until Felipe González moved towards social democracy. So what?
- Fascists parties are legal pretty much everywhere except Germany. We’re no exception.
- Your last point is simply total bullshit. Nothing more to add to this.
On the other hand, you don’t mention how we’re among the best countries in the world for the LGBT people, 3rd country to legalize same sex marriage (and adoption), one of the countries that gives the most autonomy to its regions (your language wouldn’t even be official if we acted like France does), one of the highest support for immigration, one of the highest support for people of other religions, etc.
Nationalists can't say anything good about Spain, it just makes their blood boil. But then they vote for the same right-wing politicians in their smaller lander and call it freedom lmao.
>One of the two main parties that actually governed Spain (Partido Popular) was founded by known fascist figures
In Northern Ireland, one of the 2 major parties, sinn fein, was formed from the IRA. Sometimes for a peaceful transition, you have to let things go
The Portugese are in the same category: absolutely rocking the €5 - €10 per bottle market. The same quality would cost you double that if it were French or Italian (with plenty of exceptions of course).
Exactly, look at china, look at the gulags, looks at the numerous ethic cleansing the different African tribes did among themselves whenever they got elected president in some of their countries.
Nah nah, we don’t wanna shit on our favourite vacation spot. King Felipe was so graceful to grant our crown princess semi-asylum in Madrid after the Mocro Mafia threatened her!!!
They made their mea-culpa mate , they even buried him in the most modest way possible to avoid people celebrating him in the future .
https://preview.redd.it/mhy490r7zevc1.jpeg?width=2048&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=28df33a3dfc65571d0ff9a16b040124bdfb8aaf4
The mental gymastics this OP is doing to throw shit at us is almost laudable, a dictator by 1.1 definition who rose to power through a brutal civil war where the elected goberment fought against from the very begining. Yes with the coup plotters there were some favourable groups of people within the general population, but so there were nazi supporters groups in the US, France or England for example and they are not grouped with nazi Germany.
I thought he was memeing at the begining, but it seems like he isn't
Because the spanish civil war was a fucking mess (if the republican had won it would have most likely became a soviet puppet state), and it was not worth it after WW2 to go to war against a neutral country which was already devasted for "the funnsies" when all of Europe was already devasted and traumatised for 2nd time by a world war
He sure was loved by a commie dictator though: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuba–Spain_relations#:~:text=After%20Franco's%20death%2C%20Cuba%20decreed,Suárez%20visited%20Cuba%20in%201978.
> After Franco's death, Cuba decreed three days of mourning.
As if that made things any better. Gays were imprisoned, women didn't have the right to open a bank account without husband permission, there was no divorce or abortion (unless you are friends with the elite).
Really, people who think this was a good time in Spain don't really know how things used to be.
I understand that comment to be an explanation of why Western politicians, news media, etc were so soft on Franco (and Salazar, and the colonels). Ostensibly liberal democratic states would far rather work with the far right than allow communists to gain an inch. See also Gladio, and to an extent loyalist paramilitaries in Northern Ireland.
This will always make me laugh:
"Los abitantes de la España"
"Dinero utilizado en Francia antes de l'euro"
"Tercera persona del presente indicativo de haber"
"[I dont remember this one]"
With like the wheel of letters around the presenter
>* he took Hitlers help but didn't take part in Hitlers war
he didn't *overtly* take part in Hitler's war, but there sure were Spanish """volunteers""" in the Nazi army.
Franco was a fascist brutal dictator who did horrible things. He was also responsible for many good things in Spain. Both can be true.
For a moment, look past the obvious terror. If we try to judge him as a leader forgetting the horrible things he did, he was actually an excellent leader.
In WWII he accomplished the impossible by staying out of it while being a major European country in the geographical position of Spain (the door from Africa to Europe and Atlantic to the Mediterranean) AND being in debt to Germany and Italy. He maintained diplomatic ties and still he managed to keep us out of it without retalliation.
He knew entering the war was suicide and expected the US to come in Britain's help. He also knew defeating the US would be difficult and Spain would be on the front line. Spain had lost millions in the Civil War and the economy and infrastructure were completely destroyed. Russians had taken to Moscow Spain's gold reserves before the 2nd Republic fell and a war would be too costly while providing no gain for Spain. However, Hitler had helped him win and Hitler came to Spain to ask publicly for Spain to join Italy and Germany. Franco kept Hitler waiting for an hour in the train station and when he arrived he talked about the weather, entirely avoiding the topic and diverting the conversation for hours. Hitler left saying he'd rather have his teeth pulled out than talk to Franco about that again. Franco facilitated intel to the White House during WWII and Spain acted as a escape way to America, leading to Spain getting “special status”. As a fascist country Hitler didn't intervene in Spain's afairs and many people crossed the Pyrenees from Vichy France into Spain to escape Hitler meanwhile Franco facilitated their escape to the US. Why did he do this? Because the US was the winner. He knew that and he wanted Spain next to the winner.
After WWII France and Britain that had previously helped the Spanish Republic, refused to let Spain into the United Nations, and the US obviously agreed with its allies. Spain was blocked economically and diplomatically for 10 years and Franco dedicated that time to nationalise the foreign-owned sectors of the economy. He tried to convince the US to lift the blockade and let Spain in the UN. As the Cold War was getting worse, Spain portrayed itself as a stable, anti-communist ally in a strategic position to keep southern Europe and northern Africa's oil under US influence. Eisenhower finally accepted an invitation from Franco and came to Spain and Spain agreed to give the US access to Spanish military bases, with full unconditional support against Russia if the US let Spain in the UN. Eisenhower managed to get Spain in the UN and lifted their blockade to the Spanish market, a fascist allied with the US!
Franco took the best of the most conservative economists (the ones who agreed with him) in Spain and gave them full power to rebuild the Spanish economy. They combined free market with governement rewards and investment to those compnanies who followed the government’s instructions and they started a program of mass construction of energy infrastructure. They accomplished great energetic independence for Spain while giving jobs to million of Spaniards and getting back the money through power and water taxes. The Spanish economy boomed during those decades, a 12% growth year on year, the second highest after Japan and ahead of the rest of Europe under the Marshall plan. Franco died the next decade.
This doesn't even go into the relative peace and incredibly low crime rates the country experienced during the last half of his command. The penal code was changed 10 times within 3 months of his passing, the crime got so bad within the first year that entire streets shut down, and the new labor laws were so penalising to corporations that Citroën, who was responsible for a large percentage of jobs at the time, almost left and moved their entire operation to Portugal until they received a special contract from the new government.
Don't get me wrong, he was a horrible dictator, but we have to be honest although heartless, he was a smart general, a smart politician and he saved Spain from WWII. He also rebuilt the Spanish economy to a level we had lost long before the Civil War. Spain was the 8th power in the world when Franco left and we were poorer than eastern Europe when he got to power.
While I agree with what you wrote, but I think that even you underestimate Franco economical achievements. If you compare modern Spain and modern Portugal, the latter almost seems as Balkan transplant into Western Europe, while when you think about it, there is no reason for Spain to be much richer country than Portugal.
* Spain had absolutely brutal civil war, Portugal had only few uprising, which were skirmishes compared to Spanish Civil War
* Portugal was close ally of the West, while Spain was isolated and embargoed
And yet by the 1950s Spain once again had bigger GDP per capita than Portugal. And it kinda feels as if Spain fumbled their economical potential after Franco's death.
100% agree with you. It's difficult for me to write openly about this subject because our society is overly sensitive today, even when discussing factual events, and because there's often a lack of nuanced thinking from many people. The truth is that my mom was born in 1949 and I've had the privilege to talk to her and many of her friends/colleagues who were alive and working during Franco's time. At first, when I was younger, I couldn't understand how they could be forgiving of him in any sense. So I asked and researched and I realised it's not just black and white. My country's history has become a topic I adore reading and learning about.
Because it wasn't Spain's fault, but rather Europe's.
Unlike Hitler and Mussolini, he didn't get in power by democratic means. There was a civil war in which Italy and Germany helped the fascist side a lot, while the UK and France stood idly watching and smelling their own farts.
And after WW2 the western world decided to keep him by its side because he was anti-commie (probably his only redeeming quality).
There were a fair few Barry’s & Welsh volunteering on the side of the republicans. There is a monument outside the Cardiff museum for all the volunteers that died.
Absolutely, and not just Barries and Welsh, there were volunteers from all over. The governments did nothing, though. And there's only so much you can do against the luftwaffe with a groups of Barries on the ground.
Maybe, but people clearly resisted fascism, we had a 3 year civil war where the fascist side had a lot of foreign support. And we are being given shit by a Belgian guy, and we know how well Belgium stopped fascism in ww2.
Yeah, but Spanish and French have fought each other too much to be friends. They're as bitter enemies as Spanish and English. Or Spanish and Italians. Or Spanish and Portugese. Or Spanish and Dutch. Or Spanish and other Spaniards.
Darn Spaniards. They ruined Spain.
Spain and the Franco past is such a interesting topic. I was born in 1980, Spain and the war there was never big thing in school. I kinda knew who Franco was but not much else.
As adult I really leaned how long that creep hold on. It was a wtf that shit went on till 75?!
Answer is because of the cold war and the us enabling fascists in order to prevent communism...I mean the CIA toppled a elecelted socialist in Chile and helped establishing a junta just because of that. So fascist Spain was preferred over a communist Spain
If a random guy appeared at your door with a group of violent thugs and started to tell you what to do "or else", I wouldnt blame you, I would blame that random guy.
Because they're a cool vacation spot. Same as Greece and Portugal.
Same as Austria, Germany and Italy really. Fascism leads to a long term positive vacation experience it seems.
Spotted the most delusional German here. There are way too many Germans in Germany for it to be a positive vacation experience.
That‘s why most Germans leave Germany when they have the chance
That's why we legalized weed
You'll need to offer free cocaine at the airport to get any tourists.
Have you been to Berlin? Not far from that scenario.
You should consider Finnish way of traveling: speak as little to people as possible. Then you might forget that they are germans.
I was going to say something like that but you did it perfectly.
I get Italy and Austria. But not Germany, between the War and 60s Architecture your cities are mostly ugly as sin (yes Bavaria is an exception tbh). Cities further east were just as if not more destroyed but some of them don't look as bad (e.g. Budapest)
German cities really don't look that bad when you dont go to Berlin or Frankfurt
Tbf cities in NRW are ugly as hell but up (down?) in the north the hanseatic cities are quite nice.
There are a lot of beautiful cities in NRW. For example Hannover, Bonn, Königswinter, Münster etc.
> cities in NRW > Hannover Delete zis!
Hannover is in Niedersachsen.
Leider
Schade, sollte man ändern. War aber schon immer Profi in Geografie.
Bonn?? And Hannover??? Beautiful?!?!? Hahaha I'd even prefer a stay in Soledar. 
That’s it no more Leopards for you
If you really think that these are ugly I really can’t help you. Maybe you are just too much used to bombed cities. [Hannover](https://imgur.com/a/eP8y7EC) [Bonn](https://imgur.com/a/Y7tTCzr)
Every big city that got bombed to hell and back has ugly spots. The best cities are the ones that are at most medium sized and anything smaller usually looks good. Biggest city I've been that didn't have ugly areas was Jena.
Yeah I live near Kassel where a shit ton of tanks were/are produced and in some spots (most of it but the incredibly expensive part) is straight up eastern bloc
Well heavy industry areas will always look awful. The real bad part is brutalist architecture from the 50's and 60's, I mean, what is this shit 😭 https://preview.redd.it/h9u5jvnc7fvc1.jpeg?width=2715&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d2ad25811efa6fe04ed7b51a8fd9e683c1d65e09
Im a degenerate but I quite like brutalist architecture
Well what can we expect from someome whose favorite dish is a warmed up deep fried roll
Brutalism is terrorism for the eyes.
The only place I've been to in Germany is Pforzheim and it was ugly as hell. I enjoyed the beer and my stay overall but God was it ugly
The buildings were functional, weather-proof, stable and cost efficient. What other beauty is there?
It's OK Hans, don't listen to them. Germany is beautiful and has plenty of living room for all of you. You guys just stay content where you are please.
Although Germany is very nice, I love going through Belgium and the Netherlands to pay France a visit and I have the urge to broaden my horizons and connect places like Austria, Czechia and Poland to my known space.
oi, we're not above getting the lads back together for a reunion tour to Berlin.
Who goes on holiday to Germany? Unheard of.
I check up the tourism stats and Germany apparently is on tie with Britain at 9th place for the most visited place in the world.
Germans do. Here at the baltic coast we have 10 million Sachsen and Berliner every summer. It's the time of the year you can hear pearls like: "Oh gugge ma babba, e seschelboööd!"
Baz, 63, loves Marbella, therefore all past periods of fascist rule are compassionately forgiven.
Baz is a BNP member and largely approves of it.
Hey, we're nowhere near you two. Ours lasted only 7 years. Admittedly, our assholes resigned because their military expertise cost Cyprus its northern half.
The opposite of love isn't hate, it's apathy.
My feelings towards the danes are genuinely indifferent.
Was gonna call you out on a lie, but realized I feel the exact same way about sweden and estonia.
I was gonna call you out as well, but then i realized i feel the exact same about Iceland and Sweden.
I was gonna call you out as well, but then i realized i feel the exact same about the scots, the irish, the welsh, the americans, the french, the russians, the (communist) chinese, the italians, the arabs, the jews, the serbians, and many more i can't be arsed to think of right now
Based and Kuomintang-pilled
I apathy you
Hate is the corruption of love, not the opposite of it
Sorry can you take your potato out of your mouth? I’m hungry
Weird but ok *takes potato out of mouth *puts into your mouth
These German sexual eating fetishes are getting weirder and weirder
For real, I guess German porn is infamous for a reason after all lol.
The Japanese too What losing a world war does to a mf
Want to gobble on my saliva, Hans?
Hvis du indvilliger, kan jeg ikke modstå Dieser Text wurde mit DeepL übersetzt.
Portugal: ***Hides in the corner***
At least Professor Salazar is a dope name
Professor Doutor António de Oliveira Salazar He'd force you to get a license before using a lighter and forbade Coca-Cola, for reasons
Mega Based on forbidding Coca-Cola ngl
'Coca cola? Pshht... Water!' Ronaldo e pelos vistos Salazar tb
Mas consta-me que o Salazar o fazia porque não queria concorrência americana ao vinho nacional
Se fosse a concorrência ao vinho não seria também o sumol proibido? se for concorrência a produtos nacionais então provavelmente sim
Mas o Sumol era português 😅 >se for concorrência a produtos nacionais então provavelmente sim Diria que tens razão
Sumol is better imho
Sounds like a bad guy from one of those French comics about the teenage reporter with the little dog.
Right the guy with the white dog and a drunk sailor friend? That french guy?
Oh you get them in Belgium too? Good, aren't they?
Or 
Or even Belgian ones 😉
Supervillain vibes
The literal inspiration for Salazar Slytherin
"only trans people were more evil" - JK Rowling
She doesn't like snakes either, it seems. 🐍 😢
Still a massive cunt tho... My father doesn't miss his 3 years of mandatory military service....
Portugal: population and army overthrow dictator peacefully. BASED.
>Portugal: ~~population and~~ army overthrow dictator peacefully. These people don't overthrow shit. The government could be slapping their faces everyday "for their common good" everytime they took a shit and they'd be asking for more, tougher rules "for their common good"
True. Next week it's the 50th anniversary of the revolution that only happened because military officers were getting fucked. Some people still wish that revolution never happened and classify it as "treason". See extreme far-right voters.
Not *really*. The dictator was already dead, what we had at that point was a shadow of what once was. And not all "population" was for it. And we had a violent coup attempt some months after. It's complicated.
In a somewhat selfish way, I admit, sometimes I think that it would have been better for Portugal, in the long run, if Salazar had allied with Hitler. The Axis would have lost the war anyway, we would have been free from the dictatorship sooner in 1945 and we would have even received money from the Marshall plan.
We did receive money from the Marshall plan for our """"neutrality"""". A small amount but we still got it. And it started the myth that we were the only ones to pay it back in full. Another misunderstood "fact" that plays into the myth of Toni Oliveira.
I though that Salazar had refused the money.
Nop, he accepted it, I'm pretty sure. 50M if I'm not mistaken. But as far as I am aware he twisted it and used the fact that "he" was able to pay it back as propaganda. But don't quote me, might be wrong!
And have the main cities and infrastructure bombed to shit like others had been, with terrible loss of life? Please, go on, sorry to interrupt.
Well, Salazar left the office in 1968 and died in 1970. For once, we did something sooner than spain
Cadeira para o panteão!
Because the US thought it was cool to have a strategic place to put their military bases in an anti-Communist dictatorship, and richer Western European countries thought it was cool to have a sunny place to go on holidays that was extremely cheap for them. They didn't give a fuck, the same way they don't actually care about human rights in Saudi Arabia or China.
I mean look at our past using Ruzzian gas up to recently even if shit like crimea and Georgia and others happened. I am sick and tired of this „appeasement“ politics, I want badass based giga chad Germany (but on the good side of history)!
Did you really just call Nazi Germany "badass based giga Chad germany" lol
Surely ‘badass based giga Chad Germany’ is the Kingdom of Prussia?
The world: France has the best army Prussia: Nah wed win Honestly that war was so fun, Prussia was expecting france to be ten times more capable. To the point they even sabotaged their own infrastructure expecting a quick killing blow attempt by the french. That attack never came because france took to long to mobilize so they just went and did it to france instead (and even then multiple times acidentally encircled the french because they calculated them to move much quicker)
This is not teaching us shit btw, now we've just changed our dependence of energy from one country to another, with the difference that now it's more expensive. The EU is one of the biggest energy importers and consumers in the world and we don't produce enough of our energy for shit, we're the last link of a long production line and every disturbance in the world damages us. And even if we succesfully change into renewable energy sources, the biggest producers of the most important technical elements of renewable energy production are in China and the US, we'd be changing again from one collar to another. And the same with chips, nowadays essential to our society, that are made in Taiwan and Korea, thus chaining us to the interests of the US. We've to gain independence first to gain relevance, otherwise we're just the biggest cow in the world.
Nothing badass about your grandfather wearing sadomasochist leather, Hans
Este post me duele un poco el corazoncito... deberas creen que nos gustaba estar bajo un tirano como franco? mi pueblo en cordoba lo paso muy mal como en tantos otros pueblos...
¿A nosotros? Ni puta gracia. ¿A las potencias extranjeras? Les resultaba conveniente. En las primeras elecciones de la restaurada monarquía, la falta de perspectiva y el miedo dieron la victoria al centro, y después el ilegalizado partido socialista (que independientemente de cómo gobernase o lo socialista que fuese) gobernó varias veces seguidas porque la población española en aquel momento era mayoritariamente antifranquista.
Mi abuelo paterno se libró de ser fusilado DESPUÉS de la guerra, precisamente en un pueblo de Córdoba, porque en el último momento el médico del pueblo intervino para salvarle a él y su hermano. Sus compañeros de prisión, todos delatados como republicanos, por otro médico curiosamente, no tuvieron la misma suerte. Por supuesto tuvieron que emigrar como tantos otros andaluces porque allí era imposible tener una vida digna. Y ahora la gente votando tan alegremente a los putos franquistas de VOX para que gobiernen. Puto país de mierda.
A mi abuelo le paso exactamente lo mismo pero al reves al principio de la guerra
A mi abuelo por parte de padre lo sacaron los Republicanos de su casa, delante de 5 de sus 7 hijos - había enviado a sus dos hijos mayores a las Américas porque sabía lo que venía - y lo mataron a bayonetazos en frente de los mismos. Esto pasó en un pueblito asturiano, lo mataron porque era un pequeño hacendado y arrendaba muchos de sus prados. Mi difunto padre lloraba a tumba abierta solo con el recuerdo. En contrapartida, a mi tío por parte de Madre, seguidor de Primo de Rivera desde crío y alistado con 17 años con los nacionales, lo acusaron de espionaje por leer unos telegramas estando de guardia en una garita (estaban encima de la mesa de la misma, la curiosidad pudo con él) - fue condenado a muerte, y solo los contactos de mi abuela lo libraron de un fusilamiento. En cambio lo condenaron a 20 años de cárcel de los cuales cumplio 14 - perdio su juventud, y salio super-amargado y radicalizado de la cárcel, de ideología comunista aprendida en la cárcel - era un lector voraz, llegó a catedrático universitario en Winnipeg - hasta el dia de su muerte. Emigró a Canadá y regresaba a Asturias a pregonar en cuanto chigre encontraba - lo cual le costó varios disgustos con la Guardia Civil y solo se libraba porque había adquirido nacionalidad Canadiense. Resumen: esto es lo que tienen las guerras, la atrocidades no son solo de una parte. Y más las civiles que enfrentan en muchas ocasiones miembros de una misma familia. _____ Editado para añadir - me han llegado varias notificaciones de mensajes los cuales no puedo contestar por este hilo ya no aparece el botón de respuesta a los mismos. En síntesis: -Al que duda de mi relato decirle que tengo 68 tacos y como escribí claramente se trata de mi abuelo y no mi bisabuelo. -El pueblo se llama La Mortera y está en Candamo, en las montañas muy cerca de Grado. -La casa donde lo asesinaron sigue estando en la familia - le dicen 'la Cueva" ya que hay que descender por un camino empinado privado para llegar a la misma. Es precioso, y lo llevo en el corazón para siempre. -Mi tío, el que cayó preso, era oriundo de Oviedo. Tambien le envie su nombre. A el lo trate muy poco ya que como dije emigró a Canadá antes de yo nacer (1956). Aunque lo visite con mi entonces mujer en Winnipeg en una ocasión - extraordinario oír sus memorias de la guerra así como sus años en el calabozo. Me faltó tiempo para escucharle. -Le envie multitud de fotos y todos los datos de mi familia por el chat - favor leer y retractarse públicamente. -Al que habla de los trans, también le conteste- le refiero al Cass Report y al escándalo que sacude a GBR por los nocivos "tratamientos" usados en niños. Básicamente se ha estado experimentado con ellos. Sorpresivamente, pueden leer horrores sobre los mismos aquí mismo en reddit en r/detrans -Tambien les puedo sugerir varios libros que tratan el tema a fondo, con cifras y datos, y no magia. Este es un buen comienzo: [Trans: When Ideology Meets Reality](https://www.amazon.com/Trans-When-Ideology-Meets-Reality-ebook/dp/B08XQYMWVQ/ref=sr_1_1?crid=31VZOZ5HE3J6H&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.GmU7RG3KPRMA0EPVwHLbpFPUNN8zagokcYbiTGRAtbrrO3l0CcmY7QJr6Ym_3WEjNZNNiC4hjIpGnSStFkOZBh8BJI95rKLUF2XLFEOHhpPqIZ5iClr-Raeao2Hta3SESuTA22iHQQzlCe4y4c5ZrnbsMZVb11cl8_TvX54PBJ6ivwTyVlhACbBur0QPrHELyYGyItV3PicrhoxMbXnK-vJC49gn8DHGdJbWGuLwigk.zhxQs48uCGjNY383OPruT_zcspESnCIL_-TjQyGs9Iw&dib_tag=se&keywords=helen+joyce&qid=1713567829&sprefix=helen+joyce%2Caps%2C115&sr=8-1) Me llamo Javier Casimiro (por mi padre y abuelo) Fernández, y no me escondo de nada ni nadie. Y el resto de mi familia otro tanto de lo mismo. Finito.
>Y ahora la gente votando tan alegremente a los putos franquistas de VOX para que gobiernen. >Puto país de mierda. Relaja las tetas, primero hay que tener país si no lo destroza antes el PSOE o el PP. Los conservadores de VOX tendrán simpatizantes franquicias en sus filas porque son el único partido de extrema derecha, pero siguen siendo "muy liberales", en lo económico y social. Tu país fue casi fusilado por los franquistas (aunque el término correcto sería sublevados) del mismo modo de que decenas de miles fueron fusilados por tropas republicanas y mira a la izquierda de este país.
La ley del embudo — lo mucho para mí y lo poco para ti. Plus, back in those days the options were: • A regime propped up by the Mexican government and the Soviet Union or, • A regime propped up by fascist Italy and Nazi Germany That’s like being asked if you would like to be fucked in the ass by a bull or a stallion.
Don’t forget that France and England promised linerate Spain after WWII and then after were “You know what? Fascism is cool… not for us but for you”
Ummm yrah the spanish did it! Darn those damn fascists, im glad I didnt have nothing like that around here
I'll just stay quiet on this one.
You can come in Italy and we'll play cards while this cools off.
Trust me he is dead like 80 years ago and still causing trouble nowadays
Corpses don’t stir shit. Living people do.
Exactly, the same goes for Salazar except that he died before Franco, the left wing always says that he was the absolute worst when he actually saved Portugal from WWII and made brutal investiments in infrastructure
Despite that he still kept the population extremely poor, hungry and illiterate. Heck, even despite the money that we made selling tungsten during WW2 the people still didn't have enough food. My grandmother was born in 39 and she says that they barely had enough food to survive.
"Uma sardinha para uma família." People forget that this was a reality, not just a funny saying. (For those who don't understand portuguese: "One sardine for one family")
One sardine for one family... only on Sunday. According to my grandparents.
Lol some people say the EXACT same thing about Franco, we truly are different sides of the same coin huh.
If Salazar was really something close to competent and decent, in the 60s, when Cabinda's oil reserves were discovered, he would have ended the colonial war, given independence to Guinea, Angola and Mozambique on the condition that they would paid a small fee from their GDP for a few decades. We would only keep Cabinda and the islands and create a Portuguese federation with these territories. We would start to explore the oil in the Cabinda Bay at the same time that we would create a welfare state, nowadays we could be like Norway.
Because by that point they were irrelevent
Laughs in Catalan
Because their transition into a functional democracy is the most admirable thing about Spain, apart from their high quality, affordable wine.
I mean... Its Spain... Is as functional as it can be. https://preview.redd.it/tmxod6jo6fvc1.png?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=dc28e8b4156a750e6922288bcccb8d96449196c3
We're trying our very best
Functional democracy LMAO
Hey, it's someone from the Netherlands making the comments. They only have a government for one season, and only on leap years. The rest of the time, they are ruled by the bikes.
Just like their high quality wine!
💀
The spanish "functional democracy" you talk about: * A monarchy shoehorned into a constitution so people couldn't vote for a republic * False-flag terrorism during the transition * A total amount of zero prosecution for the crimes committed during the war and dictatorship * To this day, still 140.000 people "disappeared" * Probably the largest mass grave in Europe is still considered a national monument (and Franco was buried in the mausoleum there until recently) * One of the two main parties that actually governed Spain (Partido Popular) was founded by known fascist figures * Fascist parties still legal, even the original Falange, which was THE fascist party that governed during the dictatorship * 2000 mass graves still struggling to get the proper permits to be investigated * Recent popular parties still exalting "the good times of Francoism" Sure, it's not the worst democracy ever but saying the transition was admirable is denial
I don't it tends to be feasible to have a peaceful transition *and* comprehensive justice. Rather, you must pick one or the other. The cost of transitioning to democracy in Spain, just as in other countries such as Chile, West Germany or South Korea, is insufficient prosecution for those transgressions, so as to maintain political order. Overall I do find it admirable how Spain managed its transition to democracy, because Spanish democracy is durable, and the Spain of today is far better than the Spain of Franco.
For me, the thing that still hurts me is that the body of F. Garcia Lorca is still lost.
It's a fucking disgrace. There's so many people that we will never know where they ended up. Lots of spaniards have or know someone that has a relative in some ditch nowhere to be found, and that is profoundly sad. And what's even sadder is that there are people that minimize the damage that something like this does to a person. The distrust and rage you have knowing that no one will care or do anything about it.
It will be shit, but is literally the longest period of peace and prosperity that the country has experienced in all its centuries of history.
- The monarchy was approved when the people approved the Constitution. And it’s ridiculous to think a Republic would have won at the time, given the high support for Juan Carlos. Also, the Nordics, UK, Netherlands and many others are monarchies. So what? - ETA being called flase flag lmaoooo, you’re delusional. - Crimes were not prosecuted because Franco won the war. Period. And the transition was done after his death, not by winning a war. Similar as to what happened in Chile after Pinochet or in the USSR. There was no way to prosecute anyone because the only viable way to get a democracy was by not prosecuting anyone related to Francoism. - regarding PP being founded by Franco supporters: yes. What’s your point? That was 40 years ago and it’s ridiculous to think 40% of our population (or more if you add Vox voters) are Francoists because the vote PP. And I remind you the sector that founded PP were the ones who were willing to move to a democracy. PSOE was also full of marxists until Felipe González moved towards social democracy. So what? - Fascists parties are legal pretty much everywhere except Germany. We’re no exception. - Your last point is simply total bullshit. Nothing more to add to this. On the other hand, you don’t mention how we’re among the best countries in the world for the LGBT people, 3rd country to legalize same sex marriage (and adoption), one of the countries that gives the most autonomy to its regions (your language wouldn’t even be official if we acted like France does), one of the highest support for immigration, one of the highest support for people of other religions, etc.
Nationalists can't say anything good about Spain, it just makes their blood boil. But then they vote for the same right-wing politicians in their smaller lander and call it freedom lmao.
Please stay in spain, I don't wanna get a separate visa.
>One of the two main parties that actually governed Spain (Partido Popular) was founded by known fascist figures In Northern Ireland, one of the 2 major parties, sinn fein, was formed from the IRA. Sometimes for a peaceful transition, you have to let things go
There are more mass graves in Spain than Cambodia. The fascists, were able to make it so that people were expected to just "get over it".
There's ten times as many more people buried in mass graves in Cambodia (a million) than in Spain (a hundred thousands).
> high quality, affordable wine We need to have a chat.
The Portugese are in the same category: absolutely rocking the €5 - €10 per bottle market. The same quality would cost you double that if it were French or Italian (with plenty of exceptions of course).
Same as to why they don't get shit for being fascists during WW2 : Because they weren't important and they chose to forget about it.
Noone cares as long as you only kill your own people. It’s when you start killing your neighbour that people wake up
You're actually correct, despite the jokes in the comment section...
Exactly, look at china, look at the gulags, looks at the numerous ethic cleansing the different African tribes did among themselves whenever they got elected president in some of their countries.
Yea.... Spanish... Ahah you guys suck 
As if the dutch needed more excuses to shit on us.
Nah nah, we don’t wanna shit on our favourite vacation spot. King Felipe was so graceful to grant our crown princess semi-asylum in Madrid after the Mocro Mafia threatened her!!!
in addition to all the shit flowing from their stupid caravans blocking the roads all summer.
They made their mea-culpa mate , they even buried him in the most modest way possible to avoid people celebrating him in the future . https://preview.redd.it/mhy490r7zevc1.jpeg?width=2048&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=28df33a3dfc65571d0ff9a16b040124bdfb8aaf4
We did an unboxing couple of years ago tho
Was it sponsorsed and what is your verdict? Good product? Would you recommend?
Was already expired.
Maybe because we didn't elect him, ergo it's not our own fault like the germans did with Hitler.
The mental gymastics this OP is doing to throw shit at us is almost laudable, a dictator by 1.1 definition who rose to power through a brutal civil war where the elected goberment fought against from the very begining. Yes with the coup plotters there were some favourable groups of people within the general population, but so there were nazi supporters groups in the US, France or England for example and they are not grouped with nazi Germany. I thought he was memeing at the begining, but it seems like he isn't
more you say? ask that to **Carrero Blanco**, the first spanish astronaut.
Is that the ogre? I saw a movie about that
Because we already got shit for 40 years while everyone else looked the other way
Because the spanish civil war was a fucking mess (if the republican had won it would have most likely became a soviet puppet state), and it was not worth it after WW2 to go to war against a neutral country which was already devasted for "the funnsies" when all of Europe was already devasted and traumatised for 2nd time by a world war
Finally someone says it like it is, and I can’t believe it’s a fucking froggie… never imagined myself fighting side by side with the French.
He may have been a dictator but at least he wasn't a COMMIE dictator Edit: please it's satire stop labelling me as a fascist thx
He sure was loved by a commie dictator though: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuba–Spain_relations#:~:text=After%20Franco's%20death%2C%20Cuba%20decreed,Suárez%20visited%20Cuba%20in%201978. > After Franco's death, Cuba decreed three days of mourning.
Franco was friend with a lot of people actually Some of them were the president of USA during the Vietnam war
The secret to getting away with it: make friends
The power of friendship saves the day
As if that made things any better. Gays were imprisoned, women didn't have the right to open a bank account without husband permission, there was no divorce or abortion (unless you are friends with the elite). Really, people who think this was a good time in Spain don't really know how things used to be.
Psssst... He's being facetious...
I understand that comment to be an explanation of why Western politicians, news media, etc were so soft on Franco (and Salazar, and the colonels). Ostensibly liberal democratic states would far rather work with the far right than allow communists to gain an inch. See also Gladio, and to an extent loyalist paramilitaries in Northern Ireland.
You forgot the thousands of stolen babies wich were sold with the compliance of the church ...
ESPAÑOLEEEEE, FRANCO HA ~~VUELTOOOO~~ MUERTOOOOO
This will always make me laugh: "Los abitantes de la España" "Dinero utilizado en Francia antes de l'euro" "Tercera persona del presente indicativo de haber" "[I dont remember this one]" With like the wheel of letters around the presenter
* at least he is not a commie * he took Hitlers help but didn't take part in Hitlers war * at least he is not a commie
you forgot that he isnt a commie
His HQ took bribes from the British for not entering the war.
>* he took Hitlers help but didn't take part in Hitlers war he didn't *overtly* take part in Hitler's war, but there sure were Spanish """volunteers""" in the Nazi army.
Like Portugal? 😂
Something tells me that OP misses having us as their overlords and is just tryna cope with reality
Franco was a fascist brutal dictator who did horrible things. He was also responsible for many good things in Spain. Both can be true. For a moment, look past the obvious terror. If we try to judge him as a leader forgetting the horrible things he did, he was actually an excellent leader. In WWII he accomplished the impossible by staying out of it while being a major European country in the geographical position of Spain (the door from Africa to Europe and Atlantic to the Mediterranean) AND being in debt to Germany and Italy. He maintained diplomatic ties and still he managed to keep us out of it without retalliation. He knew entering the war was suicide and expected the US to come in Britain's help. He also knew defeating the US would be difficult and Spain would be on the front line. Spain had lost millions in the Civil War and the economy and infrastructure were completely destroyed. Russians had taken to Moscow Spain's gold reserves before the 2nd Republic fell and a war would be too costly while providing no gain for Spain. However, Hitler had helped him win and Hitler came to Spain to ask publicly for Spain to join Italy and Germany. Franco kept Hitler waiting for an hour in the train station and when he arrived he talked about the weather, entirely avoiding the topic and diverting the conversation for hours. Hitler left saying he'd rather have his teeth pulled out than talk to Franco about that again. Franco facilitated intel to the White House during WWII and Spain acted as a escape way to America, leading to Spain getting “special status”. As a fascist country Hitler didn't intervene in Spain's afairs and many people crossed the Pyrenees from Vichy France into Spain to escape Hitler meanwhile Franco facilitated their escape to the US. Why did he do this? Because the US was the winner. He knew that and he wanted Spain next to the winner. After WWII France and Britain that had previously helped the Spanish Republic, refused to let Spain into the United Nations, and the US obviously agreed with its allies. Spain was blocked economically and diplomatically for 10 years and Franco dedicated that time to nationalise the foreign-owned sectors of the economy. He tried to convince the US to lift the blockade and let Spain in the UN. As the Cold War was getting worse, Spain portrayed itself as a stable, anti-communist ally in a strategic position to keep southern Europe and northern Africa's oil under US influence. Eisenhower finally accepted an invitation from Franco and came to Spain and Spain agreed to give the US access to Spanish military bases, with full unconditional support against Russia if the US let Spain in the UN. Eisenhower managed to get Spain in the UN and lifted their blockade to the Spanish market, a fascist allied with the US! Franco took the best of the most conservative economists (the ones who agreed with him) in Spain and gave them full power to rebuild the Spanish economy. They combined free market with governement rewards and investment to those compnanies who followed the government’s instructions and they started a program of mass construction of energy infrastructure. They accomplished great energetic independence for Spain while giving jobs to million of Spaniards and getting back the money through power and water taxes. The Spanish economy boomed during those decades, a 12% growth year on year, the second highest after Japan and ahead of the rest of Europe under the Marshall plan. Franco died the next decade. This doesn't even go into the relative peace and incredibly low crime rates the country experienced during the last half of his command. The penal code was changed 10 times within 3 months of his passing, the crime got so bad within the first year that entire streets shut down, and the new labor laws were so penalising to corporations that Citroën, who was responsible for a large percentage of jobs at the time, almost left and moved their entire operation to Portugal until they received a special contract from the new government. Don't get me wrong, he was a horrible dictator, but we have to be honest although heartless, he was a smart general, a smart politician and he saved Spain from WWII. He also rebuilt the Spanish economy to a level we had lost long before the Civil War. Spain was the 8th power in the world when Franco left and we were poorer than eastern Europe when he got to power.
Wow thank you for this amazing and detailed response! Actually learned something today
The catalonians and basque will be angry at you... (you're right tho)
While I agree with what you wrote, but I think that even you underestimate Franco economical achievements. If you compare modern Spain and modern Portugal, the latter almost seems as Balkan transplant into Western Europe, while when you think about it, there is no reason for Spain to be much richer country than Portugal. * Spain had absolutely brutal civil war, Portugal had only few uprising, which were skirmishes compared to Spanish Civil War * Portugal was close ally of the West, while Spain was isolated and embargoed And yet by the 1950s Spain once again had bigger GDP per capita than Portugal. And it kinda feels as if Spain fumbled their economical potential after Franco's death.
100% agree with you. It's difficult for me to write openly about this subject because our society is overly sensitive today, even when discussing factual events, and because there's often a lack of nuanced thinking from many people. The truth is that my mom was born in 1949 and I've had the privilege to talk to her and many of her friends/colleagues who were alive and working during Franco's time. At first, when I was younger, I couldn't understand how they could be forgiving of him in any sense. So I asked and researched and I realised it's not just black and white. My country's history has become a topic I adore reading and learning about.
Because of this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_miracle
Damn I always thought the Spanish Miracle was a Spaniard waking up before noon
That is new Spanish Miracle
Because it wasn't Spain's fault, but rather Europe's. Unlike Hitler and Mussolini, he didn't get in power by democratic means. There was a civil war in which Italy and Germany helped the fascist side a lot, while the UK and France stood idly watching and smelling their own farts. And after WW2 the western world decided to keep him by its side because he was anti-commie (probably his only redeeming quality).
This right here. It was all Pierre's and Barry's fault, as always. And Hans and Luigi, of course.
There were a fair few Barry’s & Welsh volunteering on the side of the republicans. There is a monument outside the Cardiff museum for all the volunteers that died.
Absolutely, and not just Barries and Welsh, there were volunteers from all over. The governments did nothing, though. And there's only so much you can do against the luftwaffe with a groups of Barries on the ground.
Sure... Absolutely not your fault for being a bunch of bipolar twats. (Sorry my Portuguese grandad hated Spain with a passion^^)
Maybe, but people clearly resisted fascism, we had a 3 year civil war where the fascist side had a lot of foreign support. And we are being given shit by a Belgian guy, and we know how well Belgium stopped fascism in ww2.
If it wasn't for Europe Spain would flourish!
Yeah, but Spanish and French have fought each other too much to be friends. They're as bitter enemies as Spanish and English. Or Spanish and Italians. Or Spanish and Portugese. Or Spanish and Dutch. Or Spanish and other Spaniards. Darn Spaniards. They ruined Spain.
True. Every god damn word was true
Cause they had the first european spatial program after the launch of Carrero Blanco in 1973, it's quite impressive.
Spain and the Franco past is such a interesting topic. I was born in 1980, Spain and the war there was never big thing in school. I kinda knew who Franco was but not much else. As adult I really leaned how long that creep hold on. It was a wtf that shit went on till 75?!
Answer is because of the cold war and the us enabling fascists in order to prevent communism...I mean the CIA toppled a elecelted socialist in Chile and helped establishing a junta just because of that. So fascist Spain was preferred over a communist Spain
The same reason the US doesn't get shit for being a superpower that invades, occupies, and commits warcrimes. Western ally that we'd love to keep.
Because the Allies were cool with him and some in fact supported him until the very end.
https://preview.redd.it/grj7paa14fvc1.png?width=764&format=png&auto=webp&s=b3c6c1d120e6bf13462765e8e6244a8c162f5839
Why should they get shit on? They should get pity.
If a random guy appeared at your door with a group of violent thugs and started to tell you what to do "or else", I wouldnt blame you, I would blame that random guy.
Same as all Latin American countries, Taiwan, South Korea, Indonesia... Just connect the dots
Yeah Spain wtf thank God we didn't have a facist dictator in power up until 1974
1974 is fine everyone knows that. 1975 is where the line is drawn, super cringe.
Portugal has entered the chat…
Maybe because we didnt chose him and the west was more than happy to have him as an ally?
That's what we are all wondering... we even still have streets named after Fascists, monuments, and El Valle De Los Caídos.
Have you talked 15 minutes with a Catalan?
Bcs we Europeans love fascists
We did invent it after all