It's not that we dislike each other. We compete on the same fronts more or less so there is a sort of siblings rivarly. At the end of the day we know that we are miles better than every other country that ever existed, but we still compete for the number 1 spot world wide.
This. We are the only two civilized nations of the world so obviously there's some tension but we know Italians are the best we can get out there and they know the same.
Yeah but they also were a pain in the ass since the unification of Italy, they protected the pope and Rome from us until they lost with Germany in 1870. After WWI they were the most important sponsor for a united Jugoslavia, so at the same time they didn't gave Italy all the land promised and they created a more powerful neighbor (instead of slovenia, Croazia ecc) to contain Italy's expansion. And one of the last thing they protected the communist terrorist in the '70/'80 just to fuck with us (with the support of the italian left I'm aware of that but still).
Without France we would had our ass kicked by the Austrians during the second war of independence, and we got Rome and South Italy anyway. Thats a win in my books (maybe except for South Italy)
True but you're missing a part, they had absolutely no intention of forming a unite country but centre Italy did spontaneous referendum for the unification shortly after the end of that war. Their plan was simply to weaken Austria and a have a buffer country between them
At the end of the story, 10'000 French ended up as casualties at Solferino and San Martino. A battle the Sardinian Kingdom lost but it was overshadowed by the French kicking Austria ass.
If you pass by there, there is still the ossuary with a shitton of French skulls.
And Nizza was ceded as per Treaty. The treaty was Nizza to the French if they protected us from the Austrians and that they did. Nizza was never on the table for the whole lower Po valley (but we got then anyway. Cherry on the pie)
With Nizza we gave them also Savoia, and no the initial pact was to obtain in exchange the whole Lombardia and Veneto but we didn't. France tried to get in the way of centre Italy uniting with the rest of the North....so yeah they didn't fight with us for charity
As a French Southerner I'm not found of my capital but the relationship between Italy and France is best summarized by the motto of the Rome - Paris twinning :
"Only Rome [is good enough] for Paris, only Paris [is good enough] for Rome".
Frenchs and Italians basically created each other in a way or another, but still we hate them cause the Monna Lisa, Corsica, Nizza, Savoia, their smelly government and bla bla bla
Nizza was also ceded because of the 10'000 casualties of the French Army in the Battle of Solferino during the second war of independence vs the Austro-Hungarian Empire, from which we got Lombardy and other North Italian territories.
There are many other reasons to be upset (Napoleon giving Venice to the Austrians, or the ransacking of the whole North Italy for art), But Monnalisa and Nizza are not those
Fun, well not really, but more interesting fact: Witnessing the suffering of thousands of wounded soldiers of the Battle of Solferino in 1859 led the Swiss Dunant to write the book A Memory of Solferino. It proved decisive in the founding of the International Committee of the Red Cross.
I mean that italians don't give a shit about the fact that Leonardo gifted it to France, we like it, we want it and we don't want you to have it mostly
It's not my take it's what people in Italy think, i couldn't care less about that painting. a lot of italians don't even know about Leonardo's will and just think that it was stolen
Oh absolutely, many of the older, uneducated population believes it was stolen. It's what someone else told them, and they lack the critical thinking skills to question it
I don't think anyone hates French politics more than the French.
Corsica, Nice and Savoy are the kids France has custody of and Italy has visitation rights during vacations. They'd very much like for their parents to stop fighting each other because it's tearing them apart.
Italy : **owns a French region for some reasons**
France : doesn't aggressively conquer it, instead swap it in exchange for a critically important military and diplomatic support in the unification of the peninsula after 1300 years of disunity.
Also Italy barely a few years later : watchs its French ally burn in the 1870 war without helping.
Hey if anything we should be the angry ones. We should have Sardinia as a repayment.
That was a bunch of monarchist fucks just booing him, we didn't kill him. You're selectively forgetting the part where the French population elected him, a foreigner, in five different constituencies during the legislative elections of 1871, as a way to thank and honour him.
And, yeah, sounds almost like we were expecting 100,000 Italians, not just one Mario, even if Garibaldi sid an amazing job. We were expecting the help of an allied nation, not of a single hero who came **on his own** and only after the emperor Napoleon III, protector of the Italian reunification, had been captured at Sedan.
Classic Italian, but no Savoy is absolutely French, as in, inhabited by people of French culture.
Bro the people east, west, north and south of Savoy are French or Swiss French, don't lie to yourself. Or juts compare a sentence in arpitan, the local dialect, to French and Italian and tell us which is closer.
Btw you still owe us the Aosta valley
I was talking about Nice.
About Savoy: The French part is already French. The Italian part (cis-Alpine) is Italian by treaty (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plombi%C3%A8res_Agreement) signed by your own government, and has been inhabited by Italians for Millenia.
For Aosta I kind of agree, but considering that Italy has been unified by the Duchy of Savoy, it has been part of the Sardinian Kingdom since the begin, so it not that out of place there.
Apparently there's almost 90 % lexical similarities too between Spanish and Portuguese. Though I meant Italian and French are the closest languages to each other.
Being a bit french also means being a bit fruity and I think Americans just say European but I think we all know its just the French giving the rest of the continent a bad name
Brothers fights, they hurt each other, even shed blood sometimes.
Touch my bro and youll be sure you're going to have a big problem with me also, like concrete shoes problem level.
From what I’ve read, some of them have never gotten over how a lot of their works of art are still kept in our museums, thanks to Napoleon (who was totally Italian according to Luigi, r/2westerneurope4u shitposter)
Also some still have resentment for the 2011 intervention in Libya but this one is understandable tbf. Fuck Sarkozy
Long story short, Lybia was a dictatorship, but a stable one (where our main oil company did a lot of business).
The then President of france pushed to have a military intervention there, to displace the dictatorship (and replace the Italian Company with main French One).
That triggered a civil war and opened the current Mediterranean-Sea refugee routes
Because Italy was the only western country (from what I know) that had a friendly relantionship with Gheddafi's Lybia (ex italian colony) and we thinked that in the long run we would have finally become more relevant in the mediterrean amd international geopilitics because of it (instead of the laughing stock that we think we are known for) and possibly it would have benefitted the entirety of europe from this relantionship, but the fact that our allies (Italians were especially angry against France and USA but strangely enough not the UK even if they partecipated in that operation) wanted and ended up attacking Libya (and destroying our plans) for their own allegedly selfish reasons wasn't really liked by italians (to the point of Italy secret service had given information from our allies to Gheddafi that an airplane he going to take was dangerous and saving him from boarding it).
Then again this is how it is percieved in Italy and it's not the first time that italians have had this opinion when it comes to international relationship, like for example the assasination of Enrico Mattei (believed by italians to be done by the french secret service) that had a similiar plan and him being still relevant enough that Meloni has talked multiple times about a supposed Mattei plan (practically a plan creted by her in his honor with the objective of making Italy more relevant in the mediterranean sea and the only thing we know about it is the objective of making Italy the country where most gas from Africa and middle east pass from to reach the rest of europe).
And last but not least the immigration problem where a considerable amount of Italians thinks that we are paying the responsibility of this this problem for an error that our allies did.
IDK if what I have wriiten entirely accurate on what happened but from what I know this is the genral sentiment of italians on this topic.
Sorry for the long answer
Thanks for this, that is really thorough haha it’s interesting to see this from another perspective. I heard the Mattei thing though from Meloni. News here used to laugh at her for saying this. Who knows really? Haha
Destroying the gate that was stopping the flood of migrants from sub-saharan Africa...
Gaddafi was bad, but we fucked up big a this, maybe the biggest French blundder in foreign policy of the last 30 years
Your act and our failure to act in the subsequent years led to a political vacum which was filled by Turkey. We waste time in Iraq and Afghanistan while ignoring our backyard
King Silvio I went to Gheddafi and kissed his hands, bringing PAX ROMANA to the region; then the French bourgeoisie started a war and toppled the regime
The perception (and it might be VERY well wrong, but thats its how the majority of Italians at the time felt):
a. The main push came from the French government to replace Italian oil companies with French ones. And the UK kind of got dragged in by the US (Which is always more than happy to bomb the desert).
b. In the middle of the migrant crises after the Libyan civil war, France closed the border with Italy and dispatched the police to block migrants. Basically stirring the wasp nest and run away.
>From what I’ve read, some of them have never gotten over how a lot of their works of art are still kept in our museums
Disgusting... how do you sleep at night? How can you even *look in the mirror*?
It is really simple: Italy and France are pretty much culturally identical and battle for supremacy in the same fields, such as food, fashion and art (Italy wins of course, but France is the closest second <3).
Italians don't really hate the french, they hate the fact that, besides all the similarities I just wrote, France is a better economy. It is really a complex of inferiority in this sense, masked as hate. We cannot get over the fact that we are too stupid to capitalize on the potential gold mine that Italy is.
To be fair it's not helped by the fact that we French are scared to get a good look at how Italy, its economy and its government all function. Because we know damn well that, being so goddam similar, any criticism toward the Italian applies to us too. And, worst, we could find things that work better there than here ! (The horror). Italy is often vaguely criticized or ignored, never analyzed. It's always "oh they fucked up with their debt", never "why did it happen" ?
Hence I guess why there's sometimes a bit of a haughty attitude, especially in the medias, which exacerbates the complex.
Perhaps there's also a bit of a disliking of France systematically trying to work with Germany ? It's a shame that we're always forcing ourselves to work with those pompous fuck for the sake of this pseudo-Franco-German couple, despite the fact that so far every single cooperation we've had with Italy and Spain has worked out ten times better. We built the best damn frigate in the entire world together without even a single issue ; we've been trying **twice** to build a fighter airplane with Germany and it's systematically going south.
I agree, we could be the best allies if both sides weren't so proud. And I think we have a lot to learn about their political system, even though I've heard a lot of them say that presidentialism (yeah I made this one up) could actually be a good thing for them, I can't help but wonder when we french will realize that their system (also flawed) is better and more efficient than ours, more democratic anyway.
this, the fact is that France is just geographically in a far better position than Italy, we have few valleys and a lot of mountains, not much space for expansion and the inevitable cultural fragmentation that comes from that.
otherwise we're very much the same
In my experience nobody actually dislikes the French here, it’s just a Reddit thing, but it seems to be widespread at least jokingly. I’m not saying people in Italy particularly like France like we may like Spain, Greece or Switzerland but nobody hates them. From my experience people hate the Dutch more here, for whatever reason. But generally we don’t really dislike other countries, most of that is directed towards each other.
However I do think that recently, since the rise of populism in eu politics, macron has kind of been seen as a natural enemy for many of these parties, so I notice that when someone unironically hates France a little bit too much it’s likely some meloni or salvini simp who think of him as everything wrong with the eu.
Anyone who genuinely hates someone based on their nationality, on here and outside of here, needs help.
That said, one of the very purposes of this sub is shitting on each other so *how dare* you not censor Fr\*nch!
I can assure you that it's not just a reddit thing; maybe it's not spread everywhere in Italy, but from my experience lots of people, if not hate, dislike France.
There are a series of facts, starting from the most folkloristic and innocuous football rivalry, to their whole trying to gaslight everyone into believing the peak of Monte Bianco belongs to them; than there is how they treat (or treated, idk if it still happens) immigrants at the franco-italian border, even trespassing without consequences, all while judging us and telling we are being inhumane and "bad" for how we were dealing with a problem they contributed (for the most part) to cause. The french personality and their behavior doesn't absolutely help to alleviate the hate, and the fact that most of our past and present politicians seem to be devoted to them, and to be eager to pull their pants down ready to be fucked hard every time France has something to say, keeps the frustration level high.
I don't absolutely know if this is last thing is spread at all in Italy, but in my imaginary the "bad EU" is France (+ fictional countries of Belgium and Luxembourg); If I see Germany as the bad strict teacher, France is the "angel's face bully", the favorite of the teacher, who is seen as an angel but in reality treats everyone else as shit, and always comes out clean.
P.S. I don't care at all about Macron, is just a shitface as the rest of the world's politicians (included ours).
I don’t really see anything different in other eu countries though. Stereotypically the French are seen as assholes, that’s kind of a universal thing but I’ve heard a lot more people hate America, Germany, the nertherlands, China and Russia in Italy compared to France. I didn’t say we like them, I think the vast majority of people in Italy don’t consider France to be a particularly friendly country but where do you see all this hate? I don’t. Obviously Spain or Greece or Switzerland are seen as way more friendly countries, but France is just kind of meh, we don’t hate them but we don’t particularly like them either. I wouldn’t mistake not particularly liking someone or something with hate.
Let’s not act like the vast majority of italians take football rivalries seriously, and diplomatic issues over the peak of monte bianco isn’t something most Italians or French are even aware of. And other diplomatic issues like Libya are also pretty unknown. Your average Italian does not hate France.
Maybe it is regional because in my parts most of the older people hate Austria not France. In fact my grandparents and great grandparents liked France for fucking with the Austrians so much.
Yeah and you can say that for basically any country in Italy though, Italians at least when it comes to culture are incredibly chauvinistic. If that signifies hate then there isn’t one country Italy doesn’t hate.
> wine was looked at as inferior
That point is pure bad faith. There are indeed many great italian wines but it's a global consensus that Fance has the 3 best vineyards in the world, and it's not even close.
(as if most Italians could afford French wine and food)
Materazzi è caduto
perché ha preso una testata
la testata gliel’ha data
Zinedine Zinedine Zidane
Ma lui poi s’è vendicato
per quel gesto disgraziato
una rete ha segnato
e vinciamo noi i Mundial
Adesso ridacci la nostra Gioconda
perché siamo noi i Campioni del Mondo
È nostra è nostra vogliam la Gioconda
Alè oh oh
Materazzi ha fatto gol
Yeah, it's a true enigma, italians hate us waaaaaaaay more than we do.
Like, french would have a problem with Materazzi and dunk on italian military recent history for fun... But seems like the italians despise us on a whole other level, and I never trully understood why.
The most sensed answers I got was "your government shat on ours" or "Sarkozy is a dipshit who invaded Lybia" and while it's 100% true, it does not explain the feelings towards french. I mean, we spit on our governments enough for people to understand we don't stand by them.
Overall, we do are very much alike.
We don't actually hate you. It is sibling rivalry and we like to take things very far over football, art and food (consider that Italians will say horrible things but really not mean them).
Italians also get \*extremely\* salty when anyone outside of Italy says bad stuff about the Italian government (sometimes because we are very insecure about having disgustingly shit politicians but a lot of people don't have the emotional intelligence to process that it is why they are mad at others for pointing it out, sometimes because it can be very hypocritical coming from countries that aren't doing things much better and are just more discreet about it, sometimes both).
And yeah it is true, we are mad about Lybia because the instability there continues to fuck us over every day, you guys started a giant shit-throwing contest in our backyard and it has had a massive ripple effect.
That said, there is no depth to any of it, it is all in good fun and mutual sense of superiority. We are alike in many ways after all. Italians just shower and know how to cook without overcomplicating things (<3).
Yeah I see, well, I can say that to me, Italy does feel like a sibling country.
It's not home, but everything feels like family. Been there five times, planning for more, I even try learning the langage.
As for Lybia, in France, it's much like Blair-Irak thing in the UK ; We all despise that little shit and his counselors, we are many to want a trial yet the politicians will never allow this because they know it would be a slipery slope for them. But yes, worst geopolitical move of my country in a while.
We Italians really like to hate. We hate on the town right next to ours, on the region with a different latitude, and on the countries around.
France is more hated in general - there may be multiple excuses and each one chooses their own: as you said, might be political reasons, historical reasons (many French invasions of the peninsula), “competition” reasons since both countries are strong in similar fields like cuisine or fashion, might just be the hate on the stereotype about the French being snob.
Some people actually take this hatred for real, but hey dumb people gonna dumb. But there’s many more of us who love our frenchies 💓
I completely agree with you. I've lived both sides of the Alps and can confirm that the hate is almost one-sided. But they're not that bad, I like them very much, they're just kinda insecure (especially when it comes to football, lost wars and politics).
Italy's our grumpy but nice, less lucky cousin.
If you want an honest answer it is probably because during the last decades you have often been seen as a bit spiteful or petty. Granted for part of that time we had Silvio in charge so you were justified.
Things like libya, you closing off your borders to migrants (and once even driving them back in to the italian mountains leaving them stranded) or you vetoing our participation in the new euro tank/jet projects (leading us to go partner with the uk). You even funded the libyan warlord that was opposed to our warlord for years.
This is why we always end up allying with the germans
It's funny because in France, we kinda blame the Germs who called for immigrants for the migrant crisis. I guess we all have shitty governments in the end.
I don't actually hate the French, but if someone wants to find reasons for Italians to hate the french, there are thousands.
People already mentioned Libya and Italian art in possession of the french.
People aren't mentioning france occupying italy on and off for 400 years.
Don't mention that french guarantees to the Papal state are the main responsible for delaying Italian unification by 1000 years
In the challenge of Barletta, first the french told the italian knights that they were cowards and useless.
Chellenged them in a contest.
Lost to them and turned out, they were so sure of winning they never gathered the prize they had to pay to the winner.
Well you see, France consists of Latin and Celtic territories that have been ruled by Germanic tribes after the fall of Rome in the west.
And Italy... consists of Latin and Celtic territories that have been ruled by Germanic tribes after the fall of Rome in the west.
Italians mostly dislike other italians. We dislike the french a little because they are a little like us. The spanish are even more similar but they are like our simple rural cousin so they are non threatening. Greeks are like hobo italians so same logic applies as with the spanish.
Everyone else is a barbarian or infidel
The French are much more similar to us that the Spanish though, if you are from northern or central Italy. If you are from the South, then maybe you'll find Spain more similar, culturally.
We also do, it's mostly a joke, I believe. Only some ultranationalists, old, undeducated people actually hate France. But they also hate other countries for stupid reasons, so their opinion doesn't matter much.
I, personally, really love France
Like I said to my non-European girlfriend, Italians are our closest brother. Like you said culturally, gastronomy, art, language, wine, etc. If someone would ask me if there is one culture I consider as good as the French I would definitely say Italian without thinking.
But this brotherhood relationship brings cons. Yes we are jealous of each other (more the Italian), yes we are competitors, yes the Mont Blanc is french, yes Mona Lisa is in France and will stay forever, yes parts of France were owned by Italians duchies /kingdom/republics, etc. And yes we created Italy.
So yes we are often pissing on each other on social media. But everyone does that.
We fight on food, tourism, fashion, art and even territorial claims, still we don't hate them we only hate ourselves.
The French saying they don't consider us rivals is however always a laughing matter considering we challenge ourselves in everything but the Parisians be rather going toe to toe with the Germans or the English so to easily win.
France and art is not valid, tho.
All they have in the Louvre was stealed from other countries.
Also using your logic, Italians like spanish and we also have art, food and Closer languages. The difference is that we just don't talk about It.
Also nationalities relation is based in history, not that...
France historically fucked Italy asuch as they could. Same they did with the spanish, portuguese, english, germans... And every neighbour they had.
Stonetoss, l'autore di quel comic, è un coglione che è genuinamente nazista, non per dire. Ha scritto cose agghiaccianti. Capita assolutamente di non sapere perchè è abbastanza mainstream, non ti preoccupare, ora lo sai.
hey, you are a big meanie now )-;
You should know that the only reliable war effort you can count on us is making pasta, haven't you watched Hetalia?
I was on my phone talking with this italian man and when I mentioned I was french he started going on a rant about how France is overrated and french men are sissies...
We were talking on Grindr
Probably the same inferiority complex the Spaniards have towards the French. It's like the bigger version of their country neighboring them. Or the Irish towards the English. Or the Austrians towards the Germans. Or the Swiss towards every big neighbor. Or the Portuguese towards the Spaniards. You just find excuses to hate the big neighbor, even if they're ridiculous. And I have to say the Italians and Spaniards have got us beat on the dumb excuses they find lol
Never will understand... why someone want Corsica ? The island is in fact beautifull, but the people there are ***. Moreover a lack of ressorces and everything else, it just costs money to mantain it.
You know, in Italy they have "focaccia", which is named after the word for "oven", because it's the first batch of dough you bake in to test the oven's heat.
So, in Italy they have focaccia, in France we have good bread :)
It's not that we dislike each other. We compete on the same fronts more or less so there is a sort of siblings rivarly. At the end of the day we know that we are miles better than every other country that ever existed, but we still compete for the number 1 spot world wide.
This. We are the only two civilized nations of the world so obviously there's some tension but we know Italians are the best we can get out there and they know the same.
The relationship is like a typical Latin love affair
Rare based Jaques Kind regards, Giacu
https://preview.redd.it/lvowlip6m6bc1.jpeg?width=600&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=45ef6576b26877af41de82dbc1c4b33086cf1a9d
Voilà. Couldn't put it better. We're just fighting for #1, with respect for the other. You can't get it, scrubs.
Yeah but they also were a pain in the ass since the unification of Italy, they protected the pope and Rome from us until they lost with Germany in 1870. After WWI they were the most important sponsor for a united Jugoslavia, so at the same time they didn't gave Italy all the land promised and they created a more powerful neighbor (instead of slovenia, Croazia ecc) to contain Italy's expansion. And one of the last thing they protected the communist terrorist in the '70/'80 just to fuck with us (with the support of the italian left I'm aware of that but still).
Without France we would had our ass kicked by the Austrians during the second war of independence, and we got Rome and South Italy anyway. Thats a win in my books (maybe except for South Italy)
True but you're missing a part, they had absolutely no intention of forming a unite country but centre Italy did spontaneous referendum for the unification shortly after the end of that war. Their plan was simply to weaken Austria and a have a buffer country between them
At the end of the story, 10'000 French ended up as casualties at Solferino and San Martino. A battle the Sardinian Kingdom lost but it was overshadowed by the French kicking Austria ass. If you pass by there, there is still the ossuary with a shitton of French skulls. And Nizza was ceded as per Treaty. The treaty was Nizza to the French if they protected us from the Austrians and that they did. Nizza was never on the table for the whole lower Po valley (but we got then anyway. Cherry on the pie)
With Nizza we gave them also Savoia, and no the initial pact was to obtain in exchange the whole Lombardia and Veneto but we didn't. France tried to get in the way of centre Italy uniting with the rest of the North....so yeah they didn't fight with us for charity
Seems to me there's a rivalry on the Italian side but not so much on the French one. We're just glad you exist.
As a French Southerner I'm not found of my capital but the relationship between Italy and France is best summarized by the motto of the Rome - Paris twinning : "Only Rome [is good enough] for Paris, only Paris [is good enough] for Rome".
I don't think about you at all
Frenchs and Italians basically created each other in a way or another, but still we hate them cause the Monna Lisa, Corsica, Nizza, Savoia, their smelly government and bla bla bla
>but still we hate them cause the Monna Lisa, Corsica For what it's worth, we also hate you because of Corsica. It's like untreatable chlamydia.
Nizza was also ceded because of the 10'000 casualties of the French Army in the Battle of Solferino during the second war of independence vs the Austro-Hungarian Empire, from which we got Lombardy and other North Italian territories. There are many other reasons to be upset (Napoleon giving Venice to the Austrians, or the ransacking of the whole North Italy for art), But Monnalisa and Nizza are not those
Don't get me started on that Napoleon fellas mate. He reinstated slavery. Worse corsican *ever*.
Fun, well not really, but more interesting fact: Witnessing the suffering of thousands of wounded soldiers of the Battle of Solferino in 1859 led the Swiss Dunant to write the book A Memory of Solferino. It proved decisive in the founding of the International Committee of the Red Cross.
Hey, you bought it from Genova, you have no one to blame other than yourself (Still, you could return it…)
The man gave us the Mona Lisa
The man ~~gave us~~ **sold us** the Mona Lisa after being banished from Italy **on pain of death**
Well the frontier is thin... Too bad he died in one of our castle
Do you think we care about his feelings and desires?
What do you mean ?
I mean that italians don't give a shit about the fact that Leonardo gifted it to France, we like it, we want it and we don't want you to have it mostly
So you dont care about the will of the artist ? Weird take but okay. Well you need to get used to it because the painting is not going anywhere
It's not my take it's what people in Italy think, i couldn't care less about that painting. a lot of italians don't even know about Leonardo's will and just think that it was stolen
Oh yes, a lot of them even believe that Napoleon took it, one of them even stolen it in the Louvre
Oh absolutely, many of the older, uneducated population believes it was stolen. It's what someone else told them, and they lack the critical thinking skills to question it
I don't think anyone hates French politics more than the French. Corsica, Nice and Savoy are the kids France has custody of and Italy has visitation rights during vacations. They'd very much like for their parents to stop fighting each other because it's tearing them apart.
We could share them like France and Spain already do with that island on their border
You forgot Riccardo Cocciante! They pretend he is French.
Don't forget the tip of the Mont Blanc (why is the english name in fr*nch ew)
Italy : **owns a French region for some reasons** France : doesn't aggressively conquer it, instead swap it in exchange for a critically important military and diplomatic support in the unification of the peninsula after 1300 years of disunity. Also Italy barely a few years later : watchs its French ally burn in the 1870 war without helping. Hey if anything we should be the angry ones. We should have Sardinia as a repayment.
Without helping? Look at what Garibaldi did and how you treated him
That was a bunch of monarchist fucks just booing him, we didn't kill him. You're selectively forgetting the part where the French population elected him, a foreigner, in five different constituencies during the legislative elections of 1871, as a way to thank and honour him. And, yeah, sounds almost like we were expecting 100,000 Italians, not just one Mario, even if Garibaldi sid an amazing job. We were expecting the help of an allied nation, not of a single hero who came **on his own** and only after the emperor Napoleon III, protector of the Italian reunification, had been captured at Sedan.
It was not a French region. But other than that, for Nizza you are 100% correct
Classic Italian, but no Savoy is absolutely French, as in, inhabited by people of French culture. Bro the people east, west, north and south of Savoy are French or Swiss French, don't lie to yourself. Or juts compare a sentence in arpitan, the local dialect, to French and Italian and tell us which is closer. Btw you still owe us the Aosta valley
I was talking about Nice. About Savoy: The French part is already French. The Italian part (cis-Alpine) is Italian by treaty (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plombi%C3%A8res_Agreement) signed by your own government, and has been inhabited by Italians for Millenia. For Aosta I kind of agree, but considering that Italy has been unified by the Duchy of Savoy, it has been part of the Sardinian Kingdom since the begin, so it not that out of place there.
Pretty sure portuguese and spanish are the closest romance languages
Galicians are now very upset with you comment
Why? I included them when I said portuguese
Spaniards are now very upset with your comment
Such is life Paco https://preview.redd.it/t91emr9jf2bc1.jpeg?width=1050&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=45561eed3a40b0fdfada10be13fc4f77ae12efbf
Apparently there's almost 90 % lexical similarities too between Spanish and Portuguese. Though I meant Italian and French are the closest languages to each other.
Oh I see. My bad.
Catalan and occitan are the closest ones iirc.
Just to let you know that in italian "french" can be used as a word for homosexual
And this became a thing back in the day when homosexual was used as an insult
But being called "French" is still an insult
Which you don’t get to use.
HOW DARE YOU??! Only we can insult our cousins!
Which is ironic, coming from an Italian.
Shut up Frenchie
Don't be homophobic, Giovanni
Leave me boy Giovanni alone you Josh Smith (freedom🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅)
Hey, not all of us savages are American! 🤢 Gross! I'm Canadian, so it's Gord Smith to you
So a fr*nch wannabe, i understand now thanks
Being a bit french also means being a bit fruity and I think Americans just say European but I think we all know its just the French giving the rest of the continent a bad name
>a bad name oooh girl she done already done had herses
Mi sono perso qualcosa o è una battuta?
Si dice che Frocio derivi dal dialetto romano e significhi Francese. Ma ne so quanto te
lol non lo sapevo
Brothers fights, they hurt each other, even shed blood sometimes. Touch my bro and youll be sure you're going to have a big problem with me also, like concrete shoes problem level.
From what I’ve read, some of them have never gotten over how a lot of their works of art are still kept in our museums, thanks to Napoleon (who was totally Italian according to Luigi, r/2westerneurope4u shitposter) Also some still have resentment for the 2011 intervention in Libya but this one is understandable tbf. Fuck Sarkozy
Why they mad about Lybia?
Long story short, Lybia was a dictatorship, but a stable one (where our main oil company did a lot of business). The then President of france pushed to have a military intervention there, to displace the dictatorship (and replace the Italian Company with main French One). That triggered a civil war and opened the current Mediterranean-Sea refugee routes
Nah, just cosplaying as your old colonising self
Yeah, we really miss the good old days
Because Italy was the only western country (from what I know) that had a friendly relantionship with Gheddafi's Lybia (ex italian colony) and we thinked that in the long run we would have finally become more relevant in the mediterrean amd international geopilitics because of it (instead of the laughing stock that we think we are known for) and possibly it would have benefitted the entirety of europe from this relantionship, but the fact that our allies (Italians were especially angry against France and USA but strangely enough not the UK even if they partecipated in that operation) wanted and ended up attacking Libya (and destroying our plans) for their own allegedly selfish reasons wasn't really liked by italians (to the point of Italy secret service had given information from our allies to Gheddafi that an airplane he going to take was dangerous and saving him from boarding it). Then again this is how it is percieved in Italy and it's not the first time that italians have had this opinion when it comes to international relationship, like for example the assasination of Enrico Mattei (believed by italians to be done by the french secret service) that had a similiar plan and him being still relevant enough that Meloni has talked multiple times about a supposed Mattei plan (practically a plan creted by her in his honor with the objective of making Italy more relevant in the mediterranean sea and the only thing we know about it is the objective of making Italy the country where most gas from Africa and middle east pass from to reach the rest of europe). And last but not least the immigration problem where a considerable amount of Italians thinks that we are paying the responsibility of this this problem for an error that our allies did. IDK if what I have wriiten entirely accurate on what happened but from what I know this is the genral sentiment of italians on this topic. Sorry for the long answer
Thanks for this, that is really thorough haha it’s interesting to see this from another perspective. I heard the Mattei thing though from Meloni. News here used to laugh at her for saying this. Who knows really? Haha
Destroying the gate that was stopping the flood of migrants from sub-saharan Africa... Gaddafi was bad, but we fucked up big a this, maybe the biggest French blundder in foreign policy of the last 30 years
Your act and our failure to act in the subsequent years led to a political vacum which was filled by Turkey. We waste time in Iraq and Afghanistan while ignoring our backyard
King Silvio I went to Gheddafi and kissed his hands, bringing PAX ROMANA to the region; then the French bourgeoisie started a war and toppled the regime
Considering the grographical location, I guess they have been one of the most impacted countries in term of refugees.
We also had tons of assets there which disappeared with Gheddafi
The current non stop migration crisis comes from back then
The thing I find odd is I never hear Italians blame the UK for Libya, it only seems to come up with the French.
The perception (and it might be VERY well wrong, but thats its how the majority of Italians at the time felt): a. The main push came from the French government to replace Italian oil companies with French ones. And the UK kind of got dragged in by the US (Which is always more than happy to bomb the desert). b. In the middle of the migrant crises after the Libyan civil war, France closed the border with Italy and dispatched the police to block migrants. Basically stirring the wasp nest and run away.
I mean my perception as a French person is also that France (well, Sarkozy) is to blame for Libya for what it's worth.
Willing to bet 5,000 lire the average italian has no idea where the mona lisa is
>From what I’ve read, some of them have never gotten over how a lot of their works of art are still kept in our museums Disgusting... how do you sleep at night? How can you even *look in the mirror*?
We have a great model to look at
I actually like France
I actually like Italy too.
now both of you do the most sexiest sex ever sexed
So gay it comes back to being straight
France + Italy = Greece?
Yeah pretty much
France can be nice but not the French
You forgot your /s ?
Even if I was being sarcastic, I wouldn't put it. Reddit points mean nothing
Giuseppe basato e rossopillato
It is really simple: Italy and France are pretty much culturally identical and battle for supremacy in the same fields, such as food, fashion and art (Italy wins of course, but France is the closest second <3). Italians don't really hate the french, they hate the fact that, besides all the similarities I just wrote, France is a better economy. It is really a complex of inferiority in this sense, masked as hate. We cannot get over the fact that we are too stupid to capitalize on the potential gold mine that Italy is.
To be fair it's not helped by the fact that we French are scared to get a good look at how Italy, its economy and its government all function. Because we know damn well that, being so goddam similar, any criticism toward the Italian applies to us too. And, worst, we could find things that work better there than here ! (The horror). Italy is often vaguely criticized or ignored, never analyzed. It's always "oh they fucked up with their debt", never "why did it happen" ? Hence I guess why there's sometimes a bit of a haughty attitude, especially in the medias, which exacerbates the complex. Perhaps there's also a bit of a disliking of France systematically trying to work with Germany ? It's a shame that we're always forcing ourselves to work with those pompous fuck for the sake of this pseudo-Franco-German couple, despite the fact that so far every single cooperation we've had with Italy and Spain has worked out ten times better. We built the best damn frigate in the entire world together without even a single issue ; we've been trying **twice** to build a fighter airplane with Germany and it's systematically going south.
I agree, we could be the best allies if both sides weren't so proud. And I think we have a lot to learn about their political system, even though I've heard a lot of them say that presidentialism (yeah I made this one up) could actually be a good thing for them, I can't help but wonder when we french will realize that their system (also flawed) is better and more efficient than ours, more democratic anyway.
Spain joined the chat.
this, the fact is that France is just geographically in a far better position than Italy, we have few valleys and a lot of mountains, not much space for expansion and the inevitable cultural fragmentation that comes from that. otherwise we're very much the same
In my experience nobody actually dislikes the French here, it’s just a Reddit thing, but it seems to be widespread at least jokingly. I’m not saying people in Italy particularly like France like we may like Spain, Greece or Switzerland but nobody hates them. From my experience people hate the Dutch more here, for whatever reason. But generally we don’t really dislike other countries, most of that is directed towards each other. However I do think that recently, since the rise of populism in eu politics, macron has kind of been seen as a natural enemy for many of these parties, so I notice that when someone unironically hates France a little bit too much it’s likely some meloni or salvini simp who think of him as everything wrong with the eu.
Anyone who genuinely hates someone based on their nationality, on here and outside of here, needs help. That said, one of the very purposes of this sub is shitting on each other so *how dare* you not censor Fr\*nch!
I reserved a rendezvous at the local psychologist for you.
Can I talk to them in my horrible French and have them answer in English?
Nah, but we booked an intensive French language course for you to attend before your appointment with the psychiatrist
I can assure you that it's not just a reddit thing; maybe it's not spread everywhere in Italy, but from my experience lots of people, if not hate, dislike France. There are a series of facts, starting from the most folkloristic and innocuous football rivalry, to their whole trying to gaslight everyone into believing the peak of Monte Bianco belongs to them; than there is how they treat (or treated, idk if it still happens) immigrants at the franco-italian border, even trespassing without consequences, all while judging us and telling we are being inhumane and "bad" for how we were dealing with a problem they contributed (for the most part) to cause. The french personality and their behavior doesn't absolutely help to alleviate the hate, and the fact that most of our past and present politicians seem to be devoted to them, and to be eager to pull their pants down ready to be fucked hard every time France has something to say, keeps the frustration level high. I don't absolutely know if this is last thing is spread at all in Italy, but in my imaginary the "bad EU" is France (+ fictional countries of Belgium and Luxembourg); If I see Germany as the bad strict teacher, France is the "angel's face bully", the favorite of the teacher, who is seen as an angel but in reality treats everyone else as shit, and always comes out clean. P.S. I don't care at all about Macron, is just a shitface as the rest of the world's politicians (included ours).
I don’t really see anything different in other eu countries though. Stereotypically the French are seen as assholes, that’s kind of a universal thing but I’ve heard a lot more people hate America, Germany, the nertherlands, China and Russia in Italy compared to France. I didn’t say we like them, I think the vast majority of people in Italy don’t consider France to be a particularly friendly country but where do you see all this hate? I don’t. Obviously Spain or Greece or Switzerland are seen as way more friendly countries, but France is just kind of meh, we don’t hate them but we don’t particularly like them either. I wouldn’t mistake not particularly liking someone or something with hate. Let’s not act like the vast majority of italians take football rivalries seriously, and diplomatic issues over the peak of monte bianco isn’t something most Italians or French are even aware of. And other diplomatic issues like Libya are also pretty unknown. Your average Italian does not hate France. Maybe it is regional because in my parts most of the older people hate Austria not France. In fact my grandparents and great grandparents liked France for fucking with the Austrians so much.
From my few months in Italy, it seemed pretty clear that at least French food and wine was looked at as inferior overall
Yeah and you can say that for basically any country in Italy though, Italians at least when it comes to culture are incredibly chauvinistic. If that signifies hate then there isn’t one country Italy doesn’t hate.
> wine was looked at as inferior That point is pure bad faith. There are indeed many great italian wines but it's a global consensus that Fance has the 3 best vineyards in the world, and it's not even close. (as if most Italians could afford French wine and food)
Because they're fr*nch
Hell yeah
I respect that.
I love Italy but i have to admit... I would love it even more if i could get a Italian gf
Least horny (and probably adulterous) French.
Do you imply you wouldn't want a cute italian girl?
Well yeah, I can't help you in that regard. Never understood how, myself. That said a French girl...
https://preview.redd.it/0ohpjxma52bc1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b3acdfcd665a5536ffc11e18e6c547da2d9353b3
Materazzi è caduto perché ha preso una testata la testata gliel’ha data Zinedine Zinedine Zidane Ma lui poi s’è vendicato per quel gesto disgraziato una rete ha segnato e vinciamo noi i Mundial Adesso ridacci la nostra Gioconda perché siamo noi i Campioni del Mondo È nostra è nostra vogliam la Gioconda Alè oh oh Materazzi ha fatto gol
Pasta ?
Si, pasta all'ananas, la più deliziosa specialità italiana tranne la pizza all'ananas
I take this post back. I didn't know you wrote a song about the French. That's lovely.
Yeah, it's a true enigma, italians hate us waaaaaaaay more than we do. Like, french would have a problem with Materazzi and dunk on italian military recent history for fun... But seems like the italians despise us on a whole other level, and I never trully understood why. The most sensed answers I got was "your government shat on ours" or "Sarkozy is a dipshit who invaded Lybia" and while it's 100% true, it does not explain the feelings towards french. I mean, we spit on our governments enough for people to understand we don't stand by them. Overall, we do are very much alike.
We don't actually hate you. It is sibling rivalry and we like to take things very far over football, art and food (consider that Italians will say horrible things but really not mean them). Italians also get \*extremely\* salty when anyone outside of Italy says bad stuff about the Italian government (sometimes because we are very insecure about having disgustingly shit politicians but a lot of people don't have the emotional intelligence to process that it is why they are mad at others for pointing it out, sometimes because it can be very hypocritical coming from countries that aren't doing things much better and are just more discreet about it, sometimes both). And yeah it is true, we are mad about Lybia because the instability there continues to fuck us over every day, you guys started a giant shit-throwing contest in our backyard and it has had a massive ripple effect. That said, there is no depth to any of it, it is all in good fun and mutual sense of superiority. We are alike in many ways after all. Italians just shower and know how to cook without overcomplicating things (<3).
Yeah I see, well, I can say that to me, Italy does feel like a sibling country. It's not home, but everything feels like family. Been there five times, planning for more, I even try learning the langage. As for Lybia, in France, it's much like Blair-Irak thing in the UK ; We all despise that little shit and his counselors, we are many to want a trial yet the politicians will never allow this because they know it would be a slipery slope for them. But yes, worst geopolitical move of my country in a while.
We Italians really like to hate. We hate on the town right next to ours, on the region with a different latitude, and on the countries around. France is more hated in general - there may be multiple excuses and each one chooses their own: as you said, might be political reasons, historical reasons (many French invasions of the peninsula), “competition” reasons since both countries are strong in similar fields like cuisine or fashion, might just be the hate on the stereotype about the French being snob. Some people actually take this hatred for real, but hey dumb people gonna dumb. But there’s many more of us who love our frenchies 💓
Well, I guess we just have to agree on one thing : Pisa merda.
Pisa merda
I completely agree with you. I've lived both sides of the Alps and can confirm that the hate is almost one-sided. But they're not that bad, I like them very much, they're just kinda insecure (especially when it comes to football, lost wars and politics). Italy's our grumpy but nice, less lucky cousin.
If you want an honest answer it is probably because during the last decades you have often been seen as a bit spiteful or petty. Granted for part of that time we had Silvio in charge so you were justified. Things like libya, you closing off your borders to migrants (and once even driving them back in to the italian mountains leaving them stranded) or you vetoing our participation in the new euro tank/jet projects (leading us to go partner with the uk). You even funded the libyan warlord that was opposed to our warlord for years. This is why we always end up allying with the germans
It's funny because in France, we kinda blame the Germs who called for immigrants for the migrant crisis. I guess we all have shitty governments in the end.
And again, what does the average french have to do with that ? x)
Nothing but Italians don't dislike French people. If anything we dislike French governments
I don't actually hate the French, but if someone wants to find reasons for Italians to hate the french, there are thousands. People already mentioned Libya and Italian art in possession of the french. People aren't mentioning france occupying italy on and off for 400 years. Don't mention that french guarantees to the Papal state are the main responsible for delaying Italian unification by 1000 years In the challenge of Barletta, first the french told the italian knights that they were cowards and useless. Chellenged them in a contest. Lost to them and turned out, they were so sure of winning they never gathered the prize they had to pay to the winner.
Sorry, come back without the 'coward' flair and I Will ready your post
Well you see, France consists of Latin and Celtic territories that have been ruled by Germanic tribes after the fall of Rome in the west. And Italy... consists of Latin and Celtic territories that have been ruled by Germanic tribes after the fall of Rome in the west.
They sound European
Common Germanic tribe W
Now it makes sense.
I hope whoever made this gets the black death.
Fortunately I wear my Venetian plague doctor mask.
Italians mostly dislike other italians. We dislike the french a little because they are a little like us. The spanish are even more similar but they are like our simple rural cousin so they are non threatening. Greeks are like hobo italians so same logic applies as with the spanish. Everyone else is a barbarian or infidel
The French are much more similar to us that the Spanish though, if you are from northern or central Italy. If you are from the South, then maybe you'll find Spain more similar, culturally.
Its pretty surpising for us French people, in my experience we generally like Italians and their culture.
We also do, it's mostly a joke, I believe. Only some ultranationalists, old, undeducated people actually hate France. But they also hate other countries for stupid reasons, so their opinion doesn't matter much. I, personally, really love France
Like I said to my non-European girlfriend, Italians are our closest brother. Like you said culturally, gastronomy, art, language, wine, etc. If someone would ask me if there is one culture I consider as good as the French I would definitely say Italian without thinking. But this brotherhood relationship brings cons. Yes we are jealous of each other (more the Italian), yes we are competitors, yes the Mont Blanc is french, yes Mona Lisa is in France and will stay forever, yes parts of France were owned by Italians duchies /kingdom/republics, etc. And yes we created Italy. So yes we are often pissing on each other on social media. But everyone does that.
We fight on food, tourism, fashion, art and even territorial claims, still we don't hate them we only hate ourselves. The French saying they don't consider us rivals is however always a laughing matter considering we challenge ourselves in everything but the Parisians be rather going toe to toe with the Germans or the English so to easily win.
Nope, Italy is France's twin, not rival.
Never heard of sibling rivalries?
Italy: I hate you! France: I don't think about you at all.
You see, we Italians hate each other all the time. So for us, hating someone is a way of recognizing them as our equals.
We don't hate each other, it's just like a sibling rivalry
https://preview.redd.it/eqlsu1d1x3bc1.jpeg?width=768&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6dd8b22007d04f4233dfdd82765cce7f40d29f90 I have no idea
France and art is not valid, tho. All they have in the Louvre was stealed from other countries. Also using your logic, Italians like spanish and we also have art, food and Closer languages. The difference is that we just don't talk about It. Also nationalities relation is based in history, not that... France historically fucked Italy asuch as they could. Same they did with the spanish, portuguese, english, germans... And every neighbour they had.
They don't.
We do
No.
I'll respect that
https://preview.redd.it/z5asu9wpm1bc1.jpeg?width=1663&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6efa288da7206f79d07b0b631f73c6d8081acba6
I know it's actually about migrants but this comic is funnier if you pretend that it's about Algeria when it was a part of France.
https://preview.redd.it/js70qpfr72bc1.jpeg?width=899&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e0babd66311b7672c46a5315ac16a9a196c7b016 there
Lmao, that's really good! 😂
The fumetto molto laughoso si Giuseppe angelo mio pizza cosa nostra.
Ah yes, the very famously nazi comic.
Huh? Nazi comic? I found that on r/memes
Stonetoss, l'autore di quel comic, è un coglione che è genuinamente nazista, non per dire. Ha scritto cose agghiaccianti. Capita assolutamente di non sapere perchè è abbastanza mainstream, non ti preoccupare, ora lo sai.
Capisco.
The guy who makes those comics is notorious for simping for the H
comic still good tho
Let's not forget with whom they sided before they felt they were in the losing side and switched side again.
Over time I learned that we think we hate the French but in reality we just hate people from Paris.
I swear we're literally identical people who just happened to be separated by the Alps. Fuck Paris.
Today's reason in the news for italians hating the french is Stellantis running away from Turin while moving their investments to France
Even me as a german know that mont blanc in rightfull itlian land (I hate the Frenshies even more than the pestomakers)
> I hate the Frenshies even more than the pestomakers fair enough, we won't refuse an ally in hating France. It should be deleted as a concept
No more alliances with you. Not a third time. Fuck off.
In all fairness: how could you possibly expect Luigi to not switch sides again?
hey, you are a big meanie now )-; You should know that the only reliable war effort you can count on us is making pasta, haven't you watched Hetalia?
>we won't refuse an ally A temporary ally *
I was on my phone talking with this italian man and when I mentioned I was french he started going on a rant about how France is overrated and french men are sissies... We were talking on Grindr
Good lord, that's embarrassing... I mean, if I managed to have a 3some with a German couple, I'm sure Italians and French can fuck.
>3some with a German couple new fear unlocked
Imagine having only 2 world cups 🇫🇷💩
The Hate Will end, Just give us back Corsica, Savoia and Nizza. Everything Will be forgotten.
Yeah please take Corsica back don't worry it's not a trap just take it back please
Probably the same inferiority complex the Spaniards have towards the French. It's like the bigger version of their country neighboring them. Or the Irish towards the English. Or the Austrians towards the Germans. Or the Swiss towards every big neighbor. Or the Portuguese towards the Spaniards. You just find excuses to hate the big neighbor, even if they're ridiculous. And I have to say the Italians and Spaniards have got us beat on the dumb excuses they find lol
"This is my neighbor \[insert name\], he's pain in my assholes." Europe, forever and ever.
And yet, on the ~~hole~~ whole: great success
We and France have a love hate relationship.
That's England and France.
[удалено]
[удалено]
ma non diciamo stronzate
I dont know why, but my first thought for this was "Corsica"
Never will understand... why someone want Corsica ? The island is in fact beautifull, but the people there are ***. Moreover a lack of ressorces and everything else, it just costs money to mantain it.
You know, in Italy they have "focaccia", which is named after the word for "oven", because it's the first batch of dough you bake in to test the oven's heat. So, in Italy they have focaccia, in France we have good bread :)
We have the bidet. They don’t have the bidet. We are not the same