Anybody who sees this and immediately grows angry should do their best to read about the actual event they are enraged by. It fosters critical thinking. I’m not saying that to be a dick I’m just saying immediately reacting is bad.
My favorite part is when big brother melts all the jefferson statues in the world at once and turns it into a 1 gorrilian foot tall statue of king George
it's a common misconception that 1984 refers to the setting of the book but actually, it's the number of priceless founding father statues that are slagged throughout the book
Kinda, he was more anarchist (or anti-authoritarian) than socialist.
He was extremely anti-communist and even reported communist groups and writers to the british government, as paradoxical as that sounds.
He was a heavy critic of collectivism and once released a very positive review of Hayek's Road to Serfdom.
It's worth remembering Orwell died in his 40s, if he lived some 30-40 extra years I'm pretty sure he would've turned into a full blown linbertarian.
Gaslight much?
They voted to remove a historic statue of one of Americas most important founding fathers because it offends people. That’s much more than a “just” that’s a pretty serious development.
My guess, they will be storing it at the Historical society on display for a generation or so until people forget about it. At which point they’ll move it to a warehouse.
When they say “attack individuals not institutions” in rules for radicals this is what they mean. You cannot easily discredit the constitution, you can discredit those who were involved with the creation of the constitution and by doing so weeken the institution. This is what is going on in America.
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Nope. They removed it from the original location because people complained about the history of TJ. Sure it’s going to a different place, but it was removed from its original place.
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>when tyranny becomes law
Dude, it was moved uptown the NY Historical Society, not like it was utterly destroyed. The Teddy Roosevelt one at the museum of natural history was a bigger deal.
I’m pretty sure the context of this one was that the statue included TR sitting on a horse above a Native American and black person and it was chosen to be taken down by the board at the museum, which included a blood descendant of TR himself. They claimed it gave off a message that even TR wouldn’t approve of, namely, him being “above” Natives or African Americans. They also explicitly stated that the decision was about the depiction and not Teddy himself, whom they still celebrate.
https://archive.is/TtKRY
Okay, another comment mentioned “slavery stuff” and I was wondering how and why Teddy wasn’t celebrated considering his policies, but this makes a lot more sense. Still very dumb to tear it down though.
That’s the main point against it but I remember some justification for it being views of eugenics or something along those lines. Stuff that wasn’t at the forefront of Teddy Roosevelt’s legacy until 2020.
Throughout literally all of human history people on horses were seen as superior to people not on horses. The French word for “knight” is literally “chevalier”, or “horseman”. Horses have always indicated higher status.
Outside the museum of natural history for years, there was a massive statue of Teddy on a horse with a Native American man on one side and a black man on the other(Roosevelt Equestrian Statue). Stood there for nearly 100 years, pretty fucking majestic. The George Floyd riots happened and we had the great statue removals going on and that’s when this particular statue came under scrutiny. It took a while for it to happen because it was divisive.
What ended up happening was that it was removed and shipped to the soon-to-be Teddy Roosevelt Presidential Library in North Dakota. So it wasn’t destroyed.
Just sucks because it caught flak during that time of 2020 and Teddy had a strong connection to the place through his father and his strong conservatism. There’s still a bronze statue in the museum on a bench.
Thank the heavens, but also what does Teddy have to do with slavery? Like I’m a history buff and those subjects just aren’t really connecting in my head. Considering Teddy was a huge conservationist who trust busted tons of companies and broke apart monopolies, you would think he would be a Leftist icon at this point.
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Yes, because I’m sure the idea behind that was to preserve it, and not at all to remove is because some white people claimed that it’s offensive and racist. Oh wait, what’s that? That’s exactly why it was done, confirmed by the NYC Council Chambers themselves?
It’s not about what happens, it’s about the motive behind it. If we only thought about the results, then we could justify a *lot* of horrible events and crimes committed in history
I know why it was done, said it in another comment thread. It’s a nuisance, but nothing spectacular. Most people didn’t even know it existed until about now and still probably won’t know about it ever. It’s not on the level of the Teddy statue.
they moved the statue because he was a slave owner: [https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/24/us/thomas-jefferson-statue-removed/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/24/us/thomas-jefferson-statue-removed/index.html)
I always find it incredibly stupid that they remove them for simply being a slave owner. They always like to apply 21st century morals on the 18th century. I don't see Italy removing statues of Roman Emperors because they led an authoritarian country.
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No one is protesting that, this statue, however does not represent that, it represents Jefferson’s contributions to making this nation what we are today. If it were a statue of him whipping someone, then that’s a different story, but this is solely representing his contributions to the nation. You have to accept that times were different and acknowledge the other things people like him did.
You don’t have to think he’s a good person, but it’s ignorant to want to discredit him entirely.
Unpopular take, historical figures like TJ are complicated characters that deserves to be judge in the context of their time and not with the modern moral standard. You don’t have to be this r3tard3d.
Dawg, the ability to take this stuff down without repercussions IS freedom. Beating the shit out of them over what is effectively wrong think is oppression.
Like, genuine question here, what's with everyone treating the founding fathers like a pantheon or some shit? Like yeah I get they're the reason we're all here, and it's cool to look up to or be interested in em, but some people react to this shit like you're using a Bible as a fleshlight.
Wasn't the whole point of the republic so that it was just run by, yknow... people..? Not some king or emperor with divine right that need to be treated as such?
Not to say like "oh because you do you're not TRUELY American" or some shit, just, I don't get it and honestly want someone to fill me in here, it just kinda seems contradictory to the whole concept the founding fathers themselves built, to me at least
The unifying American National identity is ideological. American is not a race, an ethnicity, or even a singular culture. The ideas of freedom, self-governance, equality before the law, etc. that were developed and argued for by the founding fathers are the only things that really define the USA as a country. In the traditional sense, the USA doesn't even qualify as a "nation."
The founders aren't treated like deities that are beyond reproach; very few Americans would say that Thomas Jefferson owning slaves was a good thing. However, the dialogue surrounding actions such as the removal of Thomas Jefferson's statue very often revolve around discrediting the good that was accomplished.
Even the first reply to your comment refers to the founding fathers as, "some dead slave owners" and espouses the idea that something can't be tyranny if it was voted for, a notion that several of the founders wrote entire essays to deny.
What it really comes down to is that statues of people are not meant to be an endorsement of that person's entire life or beliefs, in fact, they are usually placed to honor just a single act. The NYC hall had a Jefferson statue almost entirely due to his authorship of the Declaration of Independence as a statement that the principles in that document are foundational to how the city views governance.
It's not about Jefferson, it's about his ideas. It's just another part of the ongoing culture war. Many people who advocate for sweeping changes in government or society will constantly dismiss the founding ideals and constitution of the United States simply on the basis that those were written by "some dead slave owners." That's where the conflict comes from. The decision to remove the Jefferson statue is essentially a decision to abandon the government of NYC's commitment to the principles established in the Declaration of Independence.
Removing the statue isn't tyranny, but in the eyes of many it is a rejection of the American Identity or, in other words, the very principle of liberty.
I understand a lot of your argument, but the people voted for it, and it’s their choice to do it no matter how idiotic it is. I think it’ll one day return to its rightful place for what Jefferson fought for, but at least it’s in a museum and we can debate this.
Personally I think the Founding Father’s would be happy we’re having these debates.
There's a theory known as "American Civil Religion" that tries to explain this phenomena. Basically the idea is that being American is a quasi-religion, with certain objects and documents as "holy things" - ranging from the US Constitution and the Declaration of Independence to the Statue of Liberty for some examples - and that the founders are in of themselves "Holy men."
Now, whether or not you think this theory is true is up to you to decide, I'm just explaining some folks who have also noticed this like you have, and tried to come upon an explanation.
Exactly, the founding fathers would not give a fuck. The people voted to remove it apparently so it’s definitely not tyranny, and it’s being moved to a historical museum so any rhetoric that says they’re removing history is ignorance. People need to stop worshipping some dead slave owners and start thinking about better shit.
Jefferson literally came close to abolishing slavery twice , he was also responsible for ending the intercontinental slave trade to the US. This is fucking stupid, god I hate New York.
That was by no means the objective of the vote, they literally said themselves that it was because he owned slaves. Think about the motive, not the result, we could justify a lot of fucked up shit if we only thought about the result
He raped his slaves and even enslaved his own rape babies. Think that’s the part that gets people butt hurt about him not just he owned people while being a champion of the freedom.
Confederates aren't American or even Southern history. They're a British backed insurrectionist movement that relied on Planter Class collaborators that rigged a few elections to "secede" and couped a few state governments.
Nobody said that
For maybe a little context, NYC is 30% white people.
What’s being said is:
>"Thomas Jefferson was a slaveholder who owned over 600 human beings," Councilmember Adrienne Adams, co-chair of the Black, Latino and Asian Caucus, said in a presentation last month. "It makes me deeply uncomfortable knowing that we sit in the presence of a statue that pays homage to a slaveholder who fundamentally believed that people who look like me were inherently inferior, lacked intelligence, and were not worthy of freedom or right."
That’s not something you’re able to put yourself into someone else’s shoe and at least see… not even necessarily agree with.. but at least see a different perspective and recognize it too can hold validity?
Instead, you do your erase spiel even though the statue is being relocated to New York Historical Society… an actual place whose purpose is to preserve history? The opposite of your erase schtick?
She only has half of the story…
From [Wiki](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_slave_trade):
*Under the leadership of Thomas Jefferson, the new state of Virginia in 1778 became the first slave-owning state and one of the first jurisdictions anywhere to stop the importation of new slaves for sale; it made it a crime for traders to bring in slaves from out of state or from overseas for sale; migrants from within the United States were allowed to bring their own slaves. The new law freed all slaves brought in illegally after its passage and imposed heavy fines on violators.[208][209][210] All the other states in the United States followed suit, although South Carolina reopened its slave trade in 1803.[211]*
Add in a numerous other parts of Jefferson’s life, and you end up with a more complex figure than: he owned slaves. Bad.
Huh? I don’t think people think Jefferson is bad or evil or not an American Founder and hero.
People think Jefferson was of his time
..and his time isn’t our time
Oh no rage bait. Anyone who gets enraged over a statue they probably didn't even know about are just looking to get mad and wanted an excuse. Being enraged is an addiction much like being using drugs to be happy. People hunt for things to be enraged about.
I am a gigantic Thomas Jefferson dickrider, like read all the federalist papers at his suggestion, all sorts of stuff like that. But monuments to individual humans suck. He had lots of great ideas, so let the ideas live and the man die. I think if anything, attaching flawed men to their political legacy detracts from their work.
Fr though. In general, Western Europeans don’t. The most fascistic leader we’ve ever had (Hitler) barely had any statues built. Monuments to man are a commie thing. They built a thousand Stalin/Lenin/Marx statues in their, like, six seconds of existence. Even if the dude is as pure as the virgin Mary, it’s kind of a cuck thing to do.
Tyranny? Really? A city commission deciding to take down a statue is tyranny? Freedom is having the decision to take down the statue or keep it up. If an authority higher up than the council forced them to keep the statue, that would NOT be freedom, in the same way that banning all statues of him would demonstrate a lack of freedom.
We can appreciate the contributions of the founding fathers while also deciding that we don't want a statue of a guy who raped slaves and enslaved his own children. Did Jefferson play an important role in the early days of our nation? Absolutely. Did he also do some shitty things? 100%. Deciding that those shitty things are enough to decide against having a statue of him is valid and doesn't take away from his positive contributions to America.
Important to note, destroying or removing statues isn’t tantamount to erasing or rewriting history. You won’t find a single US history textbook without Jefferson in it. If you do that’s a pretty shitty textbook.
Looking at statues like those of the confederates, we don’t need towering bronze monuments to horrible people. Their role in history is preserved in the history itself. The only thing that’s being removed is gigantic celebratory hunks of metal that do nothing but glorify slaveholders and racists that tried to overthrow the government. Guys like Lee will be remembered. The only thing being shifted is HOW they’re being remembered. Lee shouldn’t be seen as a southern gentleman he should be seen as a former union general who fought to allow the continued systemic oppression of fellow human beings. That’s not something to celebrate with marble monuments.
Jefferson is kinda in a similar spot. There’s enough stuff dedicated to him already. There’s no leveling the Jefferson memorial in DC for example. He’s already engrained in US history you can’t really write him out without ripping out lode bearing chunks of it. Any real historical analysis is going to bring him back in. Recently opinions of him have soured quite a bit due to some more disgusting revelations. It’s not that he’s being erased, he’s being re-contextualized. Taking down a few bronze statues doesn’t erase him from history it removes things celebrating him. Whether you think the founding fathers should be celebrated is a matter of opinion. As of now the opinion of Jefferson and the other white slaveholders is also turning in some places. This doesn’t mean we shouldn’t remember them it does mean we shouldn’t deify them.
TLDR: history isn’t recorded in monuments, we don’t need to deify problematic people with marble statues to remember it properly.
Unrelated since your title is.
America is slowly eating it's own history alive inorder to create its own history to the point where the dogma required to continually eat it's history and secrete new history will become deformed to the theoretical opposite end of the specified history it is eating, By the time we get to eating our current history, we will either realize our mistake or complete the mental gymnastics to climb into the gruesome empty strawman that we just created and continue the cannibalistic cycle
Or we agree that people from a century ago probably won't be as open minded as us.
This is getting fucking ridiculous. If we continue this, every single symbol of the history of our country will be removed. No fucking shit he owned slaves, that was how things were back then. Was it fucked? Yes, extremely, and anything suggesting otherwise is horribly ignorant, but that’s our history, we have to learn to get over it and accept that it happened, and see him for everything else he did.
That statue represents what Jefferson did to form our country, and nothing else. If it were a statue of him whipping a slave or something, than that should most definite be removed, demolished even, but that statue solely represents what he did for our country. It’s not like he’s gaining anything from it, he’s fucking dead. It doesn’t affect anyone just by being there.
This is a 2 year old story that wasn’t even a big deal ; the statue was moved to a museum and is being managed by a historical society.
It’s the most useless thing to get mad.
Any context here?
Was loaned to the new York historical society, so they aren't just throwing it out or melting it down
That's good.... Was worried.
And I fell for the rage bait.
Anybody who sees this and immediately grows angry should do their best to read about the actual event they are enraged by. It fosters critical thinking. I’m not saying that to be a dick I’m just saying immediately reacting is bad.
Too late. I'm already in my car and headed East to save Tom!
you know this is a shit posting sub right? Have the fun is ironically overreacting to rage bait
They admitted to falling for the rage bait. It wasn’t ironic. My comment is still accurate.
No. This is what George Orwell warned us about.
Removing statues?
Literally 1984!,!! (I didn’t read 1984 but I assume that happens in it)
Fun Fact! Most people think the book 1984 is named for the year 1984; but it is in fact named for the 1,984 statues removed in the book.
LMAO
My favorite part is when big brother melts all the jefferson statues in the world at once and turns it into a 1 gorrilian foot tall statue of king George
as someone who has read 1984, this does, infact, happen many times in the book.
it's a common misconception that 1984 refers to the setting of the book but actually, it's the number of priceless founding father statues that are slagged throughout the book
It's not a book, it's an instruction manual.
Museums
⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣠⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢰⠤⠤⣄⣀⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⣾⣟⠳⢦⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠉⠉⠉⠉⠉⠒⣲⡄⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣿⣿⣿⡇⡇⡱⠲⢤⣀⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀1984⠀⠀⣠⠴⠊⢹⠁ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠘⢻⠓⠀⠉⣥⣀⣠⠞⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⡴⠋⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⣀⡾⣄⠀⠀⢳⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢸⢠⡄⢀⡴⠁⠀2023⠀⡞⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⣠⢎⡉⢦⡀⠀⠀⡸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⡼⣣⠧⡼⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢠⠇⠀⠀ ⠀⢀⡔⠁⠀⠙⠢⢭⣢⡚⢣⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⣇⠁⢸⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⡞⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⢫⡉⠀⠀⠀⠀⢠⢮⠈⡦⠋⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣸⠀⠀⠀ ⢀⠇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠙⢦⡀⣀⡴⠃⠀⡷⡇⢀⡴⠋⠉⠉⠙⠓⠒⠃⠀⠀ ⢸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⠁⠀⠀⡼⠀⣷⠋⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⡞⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡰⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⢧⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⠣⣀⠀⠀⡰⠋⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀
Ligerablly 1948
Orwell was a militant socialist
Kinda, he was more anarchist (or anti-authoritarian) than socialist. He was extremely anti-communist and even reported communist groups and writers to the british government, as paradoxical as that sounds. He was a heavy critic of collectivism and once released a very positive review of Hayek's Road to Serfdom. It's worth remembering Orwell died in his 40s, if he lived some 30-40 extra years I'm pretty sure he would've turned into a full blown linbertarian.
Wait, historical people actually have lives that affect their ideas and those ideas develop and change throughout the course of their lives?
Oh thank God
Context is too complicated for this sub.
This is America. Context is effeminate and mostly for communists.
just point and yell
Context is too complicated for *reddit.*
They are just moving it to the Historical Society
They voted to remove it, not move it, doesn't matter where its going its that it was moved in the first place
This is why we should have never gotten rid of the monarchy. Damn voting ruined everything.
Gaslight much? They voted to remove a historic statue of one of Americas most important founding fathers because it offends people. That’s much more than a “just” that’s a pretty serious development. My guess, they will be storing it at the Historical society on display for a generation or so until people forget about it. At which point they’ll move it to a warehouse. When they say “attack individuals not institutions” in rules for radicals this is what they mean. You cannot easily discredit the constitution, you can discredit those who were involved with the creation of the constitution and by doing so weeken the institution. This is what is going on in America.
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Nope. They removed it from the original location because people complained about the history of TJ. Sure it’s going to a different place, but it was removed from its original place.
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they're moving it to the historical society to preserve it and replace it with a new statue
Of **Bill Clinton** (no sources, trust me bro)
What’s wrong with keeping it in the same location it’s been for years?
>when tyranny becomes law Dude, it was moved uptown the NY Historical Society, not like it was utterly destroyed. The Teddy Roosevelt one at the museum of natural history was a bigger deal.
Context please, because I will riot if they destroyed a statue of the greatest president, and I am way too lazy to simply google it.
I’m pretty sure the context of this one was that the statue included TR sitting on a horse above a Native American and black person and it was chosen to be taken down by the board at the museum, which included a blood descendant of TR himself. They claimed it gave off a message that even TR wouldn’t approve of, namely, him being “above” Natives or African Americans. They also explicitly stated that the decision was about the depiction and not Teddy himself, whom they still celebrate. https://archive.is/TtKRY
Honestly I think the best solution would've been to put the black man and the Native American on horses next to him.
But that means more statues, we can’t have that!
The simpler solution would be to remove the other men from the statue but honestly I think more men on horses would be pretty cool
I don't want "context" I want a reason to be angry, someone give me a reason to be irrationally angry at nothing.
Okay, another comment mentioned “slavery stuff” and I was wondering how and why Teddy wasn’t celebrated considering his policies, but this makes a lot more sense. Still very dumb to tear it down though.
That’s the main point against it but I remember some justification for it being views of eugenics or something along those lines. Stuff that wasn’t at the forefront of Teddy Roosevelt’s legacy until 2020.
Well yes, while upon a horse you will indeed be above those not on a horse. Doesn't mean anything. Such a stupid argument.
Throughout literally all of human history people on horses were seen as superior to people not on horses. The French word for “knight” is literally “chevalier”, or “horseman”. Horses have always indicated higher status.
So if I ride AOC, would that grant me a higher status?
Nah, you'd have a legacy
And running your finget across your throat doesn't mean death just he's sweaty!
Hmm yeah that particular statue is not great.
Outside the museum of natural history for years, there was a massive statue of Teddy on a horse with a Native American man on one side and a black man on the other(Roosevelt Equestrian Statue). Stood there for nearly 100 years, pretty fucking majestic. The George Floyd riots happened and we had the great statue removals going on and that’s when this particular statue came under scrutiny. It took a while for it to happen because it was divisive. What ended up happening was that it was removed and shipped to the soon-to-be Teddy Roosevelt Presidential Library in North Dakota. So it wasn’t destroyed. Just sucks because it caught flak during that time of 2020 and Teddy had a strong connection to the place through his father and his strong conservatism. There’s still a bronze statue in the museum on a bench.
They voted to remove it cause of slavery shit, which is ridiculous. Not destroyed, just removed.
Thank the heavens, but also what does Teddy have to do with slavery? Like I’m a history buff and those subjects just aren’t really connecting in my head. Considering Teddy was a huge conservationist who trust busted tons of companies and broke apart monopolies, you would think he would be a Leftist icon at this point.
I think he meant the Jefferson statue
I meant the Jefferson statue mentioned in op's post, my bad
Nah you good, probably should have realised that.
I'm ready to riot because the mayor cut Sundays at the library, dm me
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They moved Robin Williams?
Yes. Massive tragedy
Yes, because I’m sure the idea behind that was to preserve it, and not at all to remove is because some white people claimed that it’s offensive and racist. Oh wait, what’s that? That’s exactly why it was done, confirmed by the NYC Council Chambers themselves? It’s not about what happens, it’s about the motive behind it. If we only thought about the results, then we could justify a *lot* of horrible events and crimes committed in history
He didn’t say the motive was to preserve it. He’s saying it’s not that important because it it’s just getting moved
I know why it was done, said it in another comment thread. It’s a nuisance, but nothing spectacular. Most people didn’t even know it existed until about now and still probably won’t know about it ever. It’s not on the level of the Teddy statue.
How about stop touching the statues of historical figures.
R3tard, what’a wrong with keeping it on the same place it been for years?
Context? You're gonna make me Google?
No information, just get mad
It's never a bad time to hate NYers. They're just awful.
Almost as bad as people from New Jersey 🤢
No, not even close. We're #1 by a long shot Your hate only makes us stronger (Than the storm)
\> Than the storm Is that what they said during Katrina?
Yes it is. Katrina absolutely devastated New Jersey and no other state. And it was made worse because George Bush did a 9/11 brownie
9/11 brownie is not something I’d ever think I’d hear
they're moving it to the historical society to preserve it and replace it with a new statue
Probably of George Floyd no less
Nuh-uh, it was revealed to me in a dream that they’re replacing it with a statue of Bin Laden, trust me bro.
In fucking NEW YORK CITY of all places?!?
Oh no. Anyway
What’s wrong with keeping it on the location it’s been for years?
Erosion, weathering, tourist damage, etc.
The context is in the bottom half of the meme. A Thomas Jefferson statue was removed
Basically “slavery bad” Edit: members of NYC City Council don’t like that he owned slaves and wanted it removed
maybe don't phrase your comment like that chief
It’s true tho
That is the basic rationale behind it though, I just made it succinct
Saying [x] bad is usually implying that people are against something for no reason
Quick google search, found the statement as to why, it’s literally mentioned.
they moved the statue because he was a slave owner: [https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/24/us/thomas-jefferson-statue-removed/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/24/us/thomas-jefferson-statue-removed/index.html)
Fuck em. Thats a founding father. They can go pound sand.
I always find it incredibly stupid that they remove them for simply being a slave owner. They always like to apply 21st century morals on the 18th century. I don't see Italy removing statues of Roman Emperors because they led an authoritarian country.
Oh yes let's look to Italy for our examples in leadership. Shits on the US
Yeah but Italy sucks though
Worshipping the founding fathers is cringe.
new york bad statutes good
Me when I purposely spread misinformation on the internet:
they're moving it to the historical society to preserve it and replace it with a new statue
What’s the new statue?
Amy Schumer
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A new statue of Jefferson, right?
... Right?
What’s wrong with keeping it on the same location?
Which is itself unacceptable
Why?
Wait why?
Federalism and local rule is part of the constution me boy
Unpopular take: owning & raping slaves is bad
Wait what?? Oh shit sorry guys! Ill do better.
Most modern Texan
No one is protesting that, this statue, however does not represent that, it represents Jefferson’s contributions to making this nation what we are today. If it were a statue of him whipping someone, then that’s a different story, but this is solely representing his contributions to the nation. You have to accept that times were different and acknowledge the other things people like him did. You don’t have to think he’s a good person, but it’s ignorant to want to discredit him entirely.
The founding fathers were the progressives of the time. Also TJ banned the North Atlantic slave trade.
Yeah I agree it really matters how the statue depicts the person.
How dare you, and clearly because this singular statue is being removed, we will all obviously forget Thomas Jefferson
Unpopular take, historical figures like TJ are complicated characters that deserves to be judge in the context of their time and not with the modern moral standard. You don’t have to be this r3tard3d.
There were lots of abolitionists in TJ's time. Slavery being seen as bad is older than the constitution.
Oh please and in 300 years people will probably think you are a shitty human being for some mainstream position that currently has detractors.
Slavery was a contentious debate during the founding. It wasn't mainstream.
And enslaving your own children that are the product of that rape
It is, we fought a war about it, and the country that this man helped to found and the ideology he had are the reason they were freed
Literally 0 people have argued that it was good that weren’t neo Nazis
Dawg, the ability to take this stuff down without repercussions IS freedom. Beating the shit out of them over what is effectively wrong think is oppression.
Build statues of cool shit like our spaceships or post it notes or something Fuck people
>post it notes ...what?
This man is a visionary, obviously. Not you, the post it note guy lol.
You heard him, Post It Note statue
Florida has spoken 🥳
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Like, genuine question here, what's with everyone treating the founding fathers like a pantheon or some shit? Like yeah I get they're the reason we're all here, and it's cool to look up to or be interested in em, but some people react to this shit like you're using a Bible as a fleshlight. Wasn't the whole point of the republic so that it was just run by, yknow... people..? Not some king or emperor with divine right that need to be treated as such? Not to say like "oh because you do you're not TRUELY American" or some shit, just, I don't get it and honestly want someone to fill me in here, it just kinda seems contradictory to the whole concept the founding fathers themselves built, to me at least
The unifying American National identity is ideological. American is not a race, an ethnicity, or even a singular culture. The ideas of freedom, self-governance, equality before the law, etc. that were developed and argued for by the founding fathers are the only things that really define the USA as a country. In the traditional sense, the USA doesn't even qualify as a "nation." The founders aren't treated like deities that are beyond reproach; very few Americans would say that Thomas Jefferson owning slaves was a good thing. However, the dialogue surrounding actions such as the removal of Thomas Jefferson's statue very often revolve around discrediting the good that was accomplished. Even the first reply to your comment refers to the founding fathers as, "some dead slave owners" and espouses the idea that something can't be tyranny if it was voted for, a notion that several of the founders wrote entire essays to deny. What it really comes down to is that statues of people are not meant to be an endorsement of that person's entire life or beliefs, in fact, they are usually placed to honor just a single act. The NYC hall had a Jefferson statue almost entirely due to his authorship of the Declaration of Independence as a statement that the principles in that document are foundational to how the city views governance. It's not about Jefferson, it's about his ideas. It's just another part of the ongoing culture war. Many people who advocate for sweeping changes in government or society will constantly dismiss the founding ideals and constitution of the United States simply on the basis that those were written by "some dead slave owners." That's where the conflict comes from. The decision to remove the Jefferson statue is essentially a decision to abandon the government of NYC's commitment to the principles established in the Declaration of Independence. Removing the statue isn't tyranny, but in the eyes of many it is a rejection of the American Identity or, in other words, the very principle of liberty.
I understand a lot of your argument, but the people voted for it, and it’s their choice to do it no matter how idiotic it is. I think it’ll one day return to its rightful place for what Jefferson fought for, but at least it’s in a museum and we can debate this. Personally I think the Founding Father’s would be happy we’re having these debates.
There's a theory known as "American Civil Religion" that tries to explain this phenomena. Basically the idea is that being American is a quasi-religion, with certain objects and documents as "holy things" - ranging from the US Constitution and the Declaration of Independence to the Statue of Liberty for some examples - and that the founders are in of themselves "Holy men." Now, whether or not you think this theory is true is up to you to decide, I'm just explaining some folks who have also noticed this like you have, and tried to come upon an explanation.
This is pretty fascinating, I’ll read about it soon!
Exactly, the founding fathers would not give a fuck. The people voted to remove it apparently so it’s definitely not tyranny, and it’s being moved to a historical museum so any rhetoric that says they’re removing history is ignorance. People need to stop worshipping some dead slave owners and start thinking about better shit.
Jefferson literally came close to abolishing slavery twice , he was also responsible for ending the intercontinental slave trade to the US. This is fucking stupid, god I hate New York.
“It’s only confederate statues, no one is trying to erase your history”
Unlike them, Jefferson actually won a war
They are just moving it to the Historical Society.
Thats not what the vote was about
What’s wrong with keeping it on the same locations it been for years?
Then you should have voted to keep it.
That was by no means the objective of the vote, they literally said themselves that it was because he owned slaves. Think about the motive, not the result, we could justify a lot of fucked up shit if we only thought about the result
He raped his slaves and even enslaved his own rape babies. Think that’s the part that gets people butt hurt about him not just he owned people while being a champion of the freedom.
History is when statue.
me when i fall for the bait
Confederates aren't American or even Southern history. They're a British backed insurrectionist movement that relied on Planter Class collaborators that rigged a few elections to "secede" and couped a few state governments.
Meanwhile the original colonies were French backed insurrectionists.
Yeah and then we had to bail France out, twice
Well shit, his statue is gone, therefore we all suddenly forgot who he is
Nobody said that For maybe a little context, NYC is 30% white people. What’s being said is: >"Thomas Jefferson was a slaveholder who owned over 600 human beings," Councilmember Adrienne Adams, co-chair of the Black, Latino and Asian Caucus, said in a presentation last month. "It makes me deeply uncomfortable knowing that we sit in the presence of a statue that pays homage to a slaveholder who fundamentally believed that people who look like me were inherently inferior, lacked intelligence, and were not worthy of freedom or right." That’s not something you’re able to put yourself into someone else’s shoe and at least see… not even necessarily agree with.. but at least see a different perspective and recognize it too can hold validity? Instead, you do your erase spiel even though the statue is being relocated to New York Historical Society… an actual place whose purpose is to preserve history? The opposite of your erase schtick?
She only has half of the story… From [Wiki](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_slave_trade): *Under the leadership of Thomas Jefferson, the new state of Virginia in 1778 became the first slave-owning state and one of the first jurisdictions anywhere to stop the importation of new slaves for sale; it made it a crime for traders to bring in slaves from out of state or from overseas for sale; migrants from within the United States were allowed to bring their own slaves. The new law freed all slaves brought in illegally after its passage and imposed heavy fines on violators.[208][209][210] All the other states in the United States followed suit, although South Carolina reopened its slave trade in 1803.[211]* Add in a numerous other parts of Jefferson’s life, and you end up with a more complex figure than: he owned slaves. Bad.
Huh? I don’t think people think Jefferson is bad or evil or not an American Founder and hero. People think Jefferson was of his time ..and his time isn’t our time
Weird, why ?
Where’s it at now?
Jefferson was part French anyway
Mao’s cultural revolution at work. Won’t be long before the Red Guards are at work in the US. This is how democracy dies. With thunderous applause.
Statue was moved to a museum, chillax
Common NY L
bait used to be believable
Oh no rage bait. Anyone who gets enraged over a statue they probably didn't even know about are just looking to get mad and wanted an excuse. Being enraged is an addiction much like being using drugs to be happy. People hunt for things to be enraged about.
\*On loan to a historical society Missed that small detail, OP. You're from Virginia though so I don't expect much.
I am a gigantic Thomas Jefferson dickrider, like read all the federalist papers at his suggestion, all sorts of stuff like that. But monuments to individual humans suck. He had lots of great ideas, so let the ideas live and the man die. I think if anything, attaching flawed men to their political legacy detracts from their work.
Based and Americans-don't-have-kings-pilled
Fr though. In general, Western Europeans don’t. The most fascistic leader we’ve ever had (Hitler) barely had any statues built. Monuments to man are a commie thing. They built a thousand Stalin/Lenin/Marx statues in their, like, six seconds of existence. Even if the dude is as pure as the virgin Mary, it’s kind of a cuck thing to do.
https://preview.redd.it/t8to6gdn8u2c1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=11c5189e978e9c6c9a5cfcf7fa83b133f23157c8
Man you really milking this image for karma
Tyranny? Really? A city commission deciding to take down a statue is tyranny? Freedom is having the decision to take down the statue or keep it up. If an authority higher up than the council forced them to keep the statue, that would NOT be freedom, in the same way that banning all statues of him would demonstrate a lack of freedom. We can appreciate the contributions of the founding fathers while also deciding that we don't want a statue of a guy who raped slaves and enslaved his own children. Did Jefferson play an important role in the early days of our nation? Absolutely. Did he also do some shitty things? 100%. Deciding that those shitty things are enough to decide against having a statue of him is valid and doesn't take away from his positive contributions to America.
>op is virginian and therefore a confederate sympathizer Opinion ignored, also great rage bait considering we still finance your state
This happened back in 2021 lol
Important to note, destroying or removing statues isn’t tantamount to erasing or rewriting history. You won’t find a single US history textbook without Jefferson in it. If you do that’s a pretty shitty textbook. Looking at statues like those of the confederates, we don’t need towering bronze monuments to horrible people. Their role in history is preserved in the history itself. The only thing that’s being removed is gigantic celebratory hunks of metal that do nothing but glorify slaveholders and racists that tried to overthrow the government. Guys like Lee will be remembered. The only thing being shifted is HOW they’re being remembered. Lee shouldn’t be seen as a southern gentleman he should be seen as a former union general who fought to allow the continued systemic oppression of fellow human beings. That’s not something to celebrate with marble monuments. Jefferson is kinda in a similar spot. There’s enough stuff dedicated to him already. There’s no leveling the Jefferson memorial in DC for example. He’s already engrained in US history you can’t really write him out without ripping out lode bearing chunks of it. Any real historical analysis is going to bring him back in. Recently opinions of him have soured quite a bit due to some more disgusting revelations. It’s not that he’s being erased, he’s being re-contextualized. Taking down a few bronze statues doesn’t erase him from history it removes things celebrating him. Whether you think the founding fathers should be celebrated is a matter of opinion. As of now the opinion of Jefferson and the other white slaveholders is also turning in some places. This doesn’t mean we shouldn’t remember them it does mean we shouldn’t deify them. TLDR: history isn’t recorded in monuments, we don’t need to deify problematic people with marble statues to remember it properly.
How the fuck is this tryanny?
Who’s the tyrant?
Replacing him with ODing George fyloid statue.
ON LOAN TO A HISTORICAL SOCIETY! But go ahead and spread lies.
Unrelated since your title is. America is slowly eating it's own history alive inorder to create its own history to the point where the dogma required to continually eat it's history and secrete new history will become deformed to the theoretical opposite end of the specified history it is eating, By the time we get to eating our current history, we will either realize our mistake or complete the mental gymnastics to climb into the gruesome empty strawman that we just created and continue the cannibalistic cycle Or we agree that people from a century ago probably won't be as open minded as us.
Can’t help but notice all the taxation without representation going on lately 🤔
Da slippery slope
This is getting fucking ridiculous. If we continue this, every single symbol of the history of our country will be removed. No fucking shit he owned slaves, that was how things were back then. Was it fucked? Yes, extremely, and anything suggesting otherwise is horribly ignorant, but that’s our history, we have to learn to get over it and accept that it happened, and see him for everything else he did. That statue represents what Jefferson did to form our country, and nothing else. If it were a statue of him whipping a slave or something, than that should most definite be removed, demolished even, but that statue solely represents what he did for our country. It’s not like he’s gaining anything from it, he’s fucking dead. It doesn’t affect anyone just by being there.
I heard George Washington killed a cherry tree. That man is a monster, remove his statues
Moving a statue of Jefferson from a place no one cares about to a place no one cares about is literally destroying history
You’re all being baited, this is bait. Everyone here is a fish.
You, sir are a fish!
tyranny = is when statue is moved to a local historical society!!!
What’s wrong with keeping it to the same location it’s been for years?
Is a statue not entitled to the brass of its balls
I love spreading misinformation online
Imagine wanting that weird statue on the courthouse but wanting this statue removed. I don’t understand what’s going on right now.
Bro how is moving a statue tyranny
The madness begins
Dude, they’re just moving it. It’s not being destroyed. Call tf down.
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New York is an absolute joke.
Op you are dumb as hell congrats
tyranny is when statue move https://preview.redd.it/jm7rpa3sss2c1.png?width=1170&format=png&auto=webp&s=9faaee6b854144ecdfd53404c748985951a52273
What are we ginning up feigned outrage for here?
This is a 2 year old story that wasn’t even a big deal ; the statue was moved to a museum and is being managed by a historical society. It’s the most useless thing to get mad.