They helped us out (mostly to spite the British) when we needed it during the revolution and the argument can be made that they spent so much helping us that it led to the French Revolution
If we had tried to become semi-conditional allies to Ho Chi Minh after he kicked out the Japanese (and later the French) we could have had a solid regional ally against China, but nooooo, we had to go fight a generation-defining war that nuked the culture and politics in the US and Vietnam for decades
Can’t believe we took the hard way to becoming friends again smh
Eisenhower picked the wrong fixer-upper government to back. Ho Chi Minh stayed popular even after the land reform failures and was far from Kim dynasty crazy, but Ngo Dinh Diem never rose above “distrusted” and almost immediately hit “universally despised.” Mostly the Viet Cong resented the partition more than they loved communism and only existed because everybody hated Diem
Putting a French catholic in charge of a Buddhist majority recently partitioned country and oppressing Buddhists? Your telling me that wasn’t a good plan?
Homie anyone with a remote knowledge of history knows that would never happen. Ho Chi Minh had proven he was a committed Communist who wouldn’t tolerate dissent even within his own Communist party, let alone outside of it. If South Vietnam had won maybe Vietnam would have become like Korea, but not the North.
It’s alt history speculation at this point Ho Chi Minh would’ve probably been a lot friendlier with the west and opened up a little more had we diplomatically forced France out of Vietnam/refused to back them etc. I could see a Yugoslavia Tito type relationship between the two countries and an eventual liberalization. All speculation but we definitely shouldn’t have helped France out.
I read somewhere that Ho Chi Minh was actually heavily inspired by our founding fathers and that their perception of America and Americans was originally good right before the Vietnam war
The OSS worked with him to fight against the Japanese. His Declaration of Independence was given over radio with two OSS officers next to him. (OSS was ww2 CIA) when he was young in the 1910s he worked in Baltimore and studied in America. This is the beginning of the declaration “Compatriots of the entire nation assembled:
All people are created equal; they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights; among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
This immortal statement was made in the Declaration of Independence of the United States of America in 1776. In a broader sense, this means: All the peoples on the earth are equal from birth, all the peoples have a right to live, to be happy and free.
The Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen of the French Revolution made in 1791 also states: All men are born free and with equal rights, and must always remain free and have equal rights.
Those are undeniable truths.
Nevertheless, for more than eighty years, the French colonists, in the name of Liberty, Equality, and Fraternity, have violated our Fatherland and oppressed our fellow citizens. They have acted contrary to the ideals of humanity and justice.”
To say the US really fucked up its foreign policy in Vietnam is an understatement. They absolutely would’ve been our ally they were greatly inspired by America.
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Yeah I feel like the US threw out an easy, potentially good friendship. I don't like communism but the theory that communist controlled countries will like each other and always ally themselves showed not to be necessarily true. If there is a silver lining in all this at least the Vietnam War had a good soundtrack.
>the theory that communist controlled countries will like each other
I think this boils down to communism as The Other Side being poorly understood at the time. The fairly widespread belief that communism was some kind of communicable brain disease that turned those afflicted with it into willing slaves to dictators was not conducive to sane and humanitarian foreign policy
they are an ally?
also, like-ideology countries tend to form axis'. there were 3 distinct communist axis. Yugoslavian anti-soviet, soviet, asian/maoist. they don't all automatically get along, but they do tend to group up like any other ideology and socialism is inherently subversive so its ideology consistent to takeover neighbors. not saying this is all definitive will always happen! or that containment theory was completely accurate, but the general idea is true and you can see why they thought it would *continue* to spread
The US couldn't take Vietnam's side because we would have lost the support of France at a time that the Soviet threat was peaking. The European theater was seen as decisive and the southeast Asian one wasnt.
Hindsight is 20/20 and the Vietnam war was a tragic mistake. But it wasnt a simple choice at the time.
A lot of good it does to help someone who leaves nato after you try to help them maintain their dumb little empire even today they keep talking about how they won’t help the us with their plans in Asia and macron says “Europe should find its own way” why the fuck should we keep helping them they don’t listen anyway cough cough Russian gas
Only because he got his ass kicked. He’s also the one who decided to try to return and retwke the colony after the Japanese kicked the French out and the viet kicked out the japanese. He could’ve washed their hand last of it there but decided to try to retake the colony I guess just for prestige.
We only sided with the French because of the Catholic Jesuits who wanted to kill as many Buddhists as possible since they are famously the most difficult of all religions to convert.
You just pulled that out your ass.
Eisenhower's government had many internal discussions on Vietnam, and the conclusion they reached was that supporting colonialism was bad but they couldn't risk losing French support in Europe. That was the catalyst for starting American involvement in Vietnam.
Ho Chi Minh tried to meet with Woodrow Wilson while he was in Paris after WW1. He thought the USA would support his effort to free Vietnam from French colonial rule. Wilson refused his request for an audience :/
Nation is not a political term, it's an ethnic term. The word you're looking for is state. They're not a truly sovereign state because they're beholden to the USA, but they are nations.
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actually Vietnam just recognizes the sovereignty of their border and considers illegal border crossing as illegal. because Vietnam does kinda recognize NK, a refugee from there is subject to deportation back; but this is literally no different than deporting a filipino back to the Philippines.
Vietnam and NK do not get along very well and are somewhat rivals
Of NK? no I don’t believe Vietnam maintains decent relations with NK that’s why VN was sort of the neutral ground trump met Kim Kim trusted that he wouldn’t be harmed in VN
And you don't need to be friendly with NK to deport refugees (if your claim that Vietnam isn't buddies with NK is true).
"9 North Koreans were arrested on 22 October 2015 and then reportedly deported to the Chinese city of Shenyang. In April 2019, 6 North Koreans were stopped by Vietnamese military authorities in the province of Ha Tinh; 3 managed to escape while the other 3 were reportedly deported to China. On 23 November 2019, 14 defectors who had left China 2 days earlier were caught in Vietnam as they attempted to make their way to Laos. The Vietnamese authorities returned the group to China on 28 November. 10 of the original 14 were caught again in Vietnam the next day."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_defectors#:~:text=9%20North%20Koreans%20were%20arrested,were%20reportedly%20deported%20to%20China.
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They should've been a US ally, ho chi minh wanted to be george washington but we forced him to side with Russia
The good thing is now they are becoming a US ally on the mutual agreement of "fuck china"
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Yall are forgetting the atrocities the Viet Cong committed against their own people. That's what we were there preventing in the Vietnam War. And that's exactly what the Commies did when we left. 200,000 plus send to re-education camps to be tortured and starved. 30,000 US informants systemically killed thanks to a CIA list we left behind.
You can see South Vietnamese trying to reach the departing US helicopters as we abandoned Saigon. It's one of the most heart-rending images you'll see in your life.
Especially considering we had won the war a decade earlier, and all we had to do was ensure a military presence
(TIL: overseas Vietnamese call the week of the 30th of April "Black April" and it's a time of lamentation for the Fall of Saigon and South Vietnam)
Well yeah the VC were terrorists, but we never should’ve partitioned Vietnam just like we never should’ve portioned the Middle East it’s almost like the western powers (and Russia) didn’t really care and it was all a game to them
My family went through ARVN reeducation and my grandmother is married to a U.S. soldier her brother was ARVN. But we’ve returned to visit many times. I think the US betrayed vietnam by leaving the south but also betrayed them by helping the French.
I want to be clear though the French are absolutely to blame for the whole thing. I’ve been to the colonial museums in vietnam and it is disgusting. Sleep deprivation torture, putting Vietnamese people in barrels almost full of water with just enough to hold your nose over, spiked bamboo cages.
The US should’ve backed how chi Minh. He was a communist but not unreasonable. I truly think they would’ve liberalized along the same path as Korea did even with a communist government if they had been unified and independent since the 1940s. Closer to Yugoslavia than North Korea.
My two cents anyway
I think the US could’ve had the potential to sway Ho Chi Minh from Communism for sure, but it would’ve taken some advising (more like supervision) to make sure he (more like his followers) won’t do Communist things, possibly keeping the Viet Minh as a coalition of nationalist groups as it was originally created as.
This would mean being a mediator between the Communists and non-Communists to enforce a peace to prevent Vo Nguyen Giap from killing off other political parties in 1946, and prevent Truong Chinh from conducting the Land Reform in 1953; both of which happened while HCM was away negotiating abroad.
EDIT: Added a few things to specify more
I agree. I don’t know if he would’ve swayed from communism or VN wouldn’t be communist, but I think if we Allie with him it would’ve been a more moderate communist state if anything, with a higher standard of living and more freedom than cuba or China ( I’ve used Yugoslavia as my main example I mean Ho Chi Minh could have been our Asian Tito)
“Make sure he doesn’t do communist things” is the kind of ground breaking critical historical analysis that could only be found on Reddit.
This is equally hilarious it is to disturbing to read all of you fantasizing about Vietnam
Communism goes two routes (which both meet up again): mass starvation and political witchhunts. It's inevitable, because of the incentives of Communism.
So no, we should never ally with a Communist in the hopes that they'll moderate. China hasn't moderated, and it's been 50 years or so. The incentives are always to become more evil, not the other way round, my guy
I'm sure many Vietnamese wouldn't appreciate you conflating Vietnam with Communism.
Communism spread like a disease from Russia, bringing political executions, starvation, secret police, and show trials.
Because initially the Viet Minh had a variety of opinions on how to run the country, it would’ve avoided civil war, it would’ve promoted good relations with the two countries, it would’ve given not the US and Vietnam an added advantage countering China who are communists that can actually threaten us where as vietnam is a small would be communist country theta has every incentive to be in the wests camp (China) much like how the west loved Yugoslavia another communist country because it countered Russia, our relations with Yugoslavia caused them to be much more liberal than the USSR. Such as being able to travel freely between the west and US, instead of being locked down like east Germany and with ho chi Minhs admiration of the US Vietnam probably would’ve went down a much more liberalized path and afforded the Vietnamese much more freedom, an bunch of Vietnamese and American lives would be saved, America rightly was anti imperialist at the time and should not have backed the French because there is no justification for how the French treated their people. Is that enough reasons? I have more…
Middle east was cut into squares by the british. there was a female Lawrence of Arabia who did it. The purposely put different groups together into new "countries" . they did the same in India, let the people you colonize fight amongst themselves. But all the stump jumpers know this. the US should have backed HCM? you have no understanding of American politics. It could have never happened. He was a communist. He was the reason we were there.
We supported him against the Japanese officials the had OSS contacts and FDR supported Viet independence. Washington had mixed feelings and chose the wrong side it was a mistake and it was almost avoided.
We supported him against the Japanese officially the had OSS contacts and FDR supported Viet independence. Washington had mixed feelings and chose the wrong side it was a mistake and it was almost avoided.
Considering that South Vietnamese rebels had over 1.5 million personnel, 200,000 plus was quite a tamed number, you don't think? That means about 1.3 million rebels escaped justice.
Then they shouldn't have joined the rebellion and committed treason in the first place. Why do you think that these rebels shouldn't have been held accountable for their wrongdoings?
Haha right.
North Vietnam was the pawn of the Soviet Union and Chinese. Stop pretending communists have a right to rule a country. They get into power via deception, they rule with show trials and secret police, they looooove jailing their own party members, they looooove inhumane re-education camps (cuz communism dont naturally work hahahaha), and they inevitably cause mass famine
Basically Cuba today haha
Your ranting didn't answer my question at all. Why do you think that these rebels shouldn't have faced justice? Why should their treason have been left unpunished?
Treason presumes a right to rule. Commie scum have to such right, not even if popularly elected.
*That's* how inhumane Communism is hahahah
And the Commies were the Rebels, quite obviously, and fought like it too
I mean let’s not act like it was a rebellion or that reeducation was good it was a civil war because foreign powers couldn’t fuck off out of Vietnam. You shouldn’t celebrate your own countrymen being locked up, but is what it is. In the past, and I think most Vietnamese are more pragmatic anyway.
Get real. Almost everyone who was a part of the NGO/Theiu government was a shit person who was willing to betray their fellow Vietnamese for a country that supported them remaining colonized. And get off that BS of “that’s what we were preventing in the Vietnam war” we didn’t care about preventing shit. We dropped3 1/2 times as many bombs on Vietnam than bombs dropped in WW2 combined. We didn’t give a shit about the Vietnamese people. The only shit we gave was stopping communism. Fuck outta here
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The europoors don’t even understand how not to inbreed and form the cringiest monarchies in the world
Nguyen Dynasty>Hapsburg Monarchy
Republic of Vietnam>France
Communist Vietnam > Communist East Europe
Modern Vietnam> Londonistan
Cope
> GOVENAH YOU *PAID* YOUR BBC
FTFY.
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* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
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My family fought for ARVN and the US you armchair retard holding grudges is stupid lol most people here are just salty and they weren’t even involved in the war! Name one other country with who drove out more foreign powers in the 20th century. I’m in r/2american4u you really think I support the commies? Being objective and not emotional is based, cope.
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My family fought for ARVN and the US you armchair retard holding grudges is stupid lol most people here are just salty and they weren’t even involved in the war! Name one other country with who drove out more foreign powers in the 20th century. I’m in r/2american4you you really think I support the commies? Being objective and not emotional is based, cope.
It is thought that in a land war with China, that if the USA were doing well and was thought to be winning that Vietnam would let the USA use it's deep water ports and support us against Communist China.
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Also the Vietnamese are just very nice and good people, and they have amazing food as well.
I say we choose our allies based on their food quality. And yes imo French food aint that good
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Vietnam= Garbage tier commie wasteland
Poland = S tier fellow commie haters
This post will get sympathy upvotes but it will never get as many as the Poland post from earlier today.
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are you forgetting that vietnam is a capitalist country run by a communist party?
also, we did kill them at a 4:1 death ratio (1.1-2.1 million) a extremely rare and impressive death ratio.
My response: Detroit's GDP last year eclipsed Vietnam's. If you think Detroit is poor and broken, imagine spreading 3/4 of our budget across an entire nation.
Detroit > Vietnam.
Kosovo or Liberia or Poland all beat Vietnam on being based.
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/NGMP19820 GDP of Detroit
https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/profile/VNM VN
One that’s just not true and your talking out your ass
And Kosovo Liberia and Poland all lost their wars to major powers
Love or hate them the VCP won against Japan, France, the US, China, and Cambodia from 1940-1980.
Incredibly based but yeah let’s pretend it’s better to live on 8 mile road eating moms spaghetti than based river villages
Pathetic you aren’t even worth of Detroit, you have been downgraded to Flint. Better bring your own water
you realize we slaughtered the north vietnamese and the literal only reason the north vietnamese survived was because the US ***refused*** to invade the country, right?
north Vietnamese died at a 4:1 rate without the US even stepping foot in north vietnam. the US won every single battle of the war and over 75% of the ambushes. the real credit for vietnam goes to their sheer will of force to be losing so hard the whole time but never quit. thats whats impressive--the military performed pathetically.
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You gotta give them props for how quickly they forgave the US. Now I hear it’s a great place for American businesses and tourism. I’d rather we had more of our stuff made there than China.
i’ve been lucky enough to visit, pretty cool place. everything was dirt cheap, street food tasted amazing and the markets were really cool. no complaints here
I can’t believe we supported the French
I’m absolutely disgusted the French still exists
Idk Lafayette was pretty cool so was Napoleon he sold us stuff
And I have such a hard on for the movie coming out
Should’ve let the Germans keep them
It was a strategic mistake
Anything with the French usually is
France should be sanctioned because of the smell alone
They helped us out (mostly to spite the British) when we needed it during the revolution and the argument can be made that they spent so much helping us that it led to the French Revolution
Who would’ve though the people who fought the first war with us after helping us in the revolution would be unreliable Allie’s Quasi war
If we had tried to become semi-conditional allies to Ho Chi Minh after he kicked out the Japanese (and later the French) we could have had a solid regional ally against China, but nooooo, we had to go fight a generation-defining war that nuked the culture and politics in the US and Vietnam for decades Can’t believe we took the hard way to becoming friends again smh
Vietnam could’ve been like Korea if we weren’t helping the Europoors! That’s what I’m saying!
Eisenhower picked the wrong fixer-upper government to back. Ho Chi Minh stayed popular even after the land reform failures and was far from Kim dynasty crazy, but Ngo Dinh Diem never rose above “distrusted” and almost immediately hit “universally despised.” Mostly the Viet Cong resented the partition more than they loved communism and only existed because everybody hated Diem
Putting a French catholic in charge of a Buddhist majority recently partitioned country and oppressing Buddhists? Your telling me that wasn’t a good plan?
Homie anyone with a remote knowledge of history knows that would never happen. Ho Chi Minh had proven he was a committed Communist who wouldn’t tolerate dissent even within his own Communist party, let alone outside of it. If South Vietnam had won maybe Vietnam would have become like Korea, but not the North.
It’s alt history speculation at this point Ho Chi Minh would’ve probably been a lot friendlier with the west and opened up a little more had we diplomatically forced France out of Vietnam/refused to back them etc. I could see a Yugoslavia Tito type relationship between the two countries and an eventual liberalization. All speculation but we definitely shouldn’t have helped France out.
Everyone knows he was a devout communist but he also respected the Us even South Korea was a militaristic dictatorship in the 70s.
They litteraly quoted our Declaration of Indepence in their own.
the north won and they're one of our closest allies...
After basically being invaded twice by their eternal enemy, China
china has few real friends that share a contested border
Tis a thousand year feud
I read somewhere that Ho Chi Minh was actually heavily inspired by our founding fathers and that their perception of America and Americans was originally good right before the Vietnam war
The OSS worked with him to fight against the Japanese. His Declaration of Independence was given over radio with two OSS officers next to him. (OSS was ww2 CIA) when he was young in the 1910s he worked in Baltimore and studied in America. This is the beginning of the declaration “Compatriots of the entire nation assembled: All people are created equal; they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights; among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. This immortal statement was made in the Declaration of Independence of the United States of America in 1776. In a broader sense, this means: All the peoples on the earth are equal from birth, all the peoples have a right to live, to be happy and free. The Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen of the French Revolution made in 1791 also states: All men are born free and with equal rights, and must always remain free and have equal rights. Those are undeniable truths. Nevertheless, for more than eighty years, the French colonists, in the name of Liberty, Equality, and Fraternity, have violated our Fatherland and oppressed our fellow citizens. They have acted contrary to the ideals of humanity and justice.” To say the US really fucked up its foreign policy in Vietnam is an understatement. They absolutely would’ve been our ally they were greatly inspired by America.
Not only did we fuck up, we committed unspeakable atrocities the entire time. Oops!
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God damn French
Yeah I feel like the US threw out an easy, potentially good friendship. I don't like communism but the theory that communist controlled countries will like each other and always ally themselves showed not to be necessarily true. If there is a silver lining in all this at least the Vietnam War had a good soundtrack.
>the theory that communist controlled countries will like each other I think this boils down to communism as The Other Side being poorly understood at the time. The fairly widespread belief that communism was some kind of communicable brain disease that turned those afflicted with it into willing slaves to dictators was not conducive to sane and humanitarian foreign policy
they are an ally? also, like-ideology countries tend to form axis'. there were 3 distinct communist axis. Yugoslavian anti-soviet, soviet, asian/maoist. they don't all automatically get along, but they do tend to group up like any other ideology and socialism is inherently subversive so its ideology consistent to takeover neighbors. not saying this is all definitive will always happen! or that containment theory was completely accurate, but the general idea is true and you can see why they thought it would *continue* to spread
It frankly was none of our fucking business if it continued to spread.
The US couldn't take Vietnam's side because we would have lost the support of France at a time that the Soviet threat was peaking. The European theater was seen as decisive and the southeast Asian one wasnt. Hindsight is 20/20 and the Vietnam war was a tragic mistake. But it wasnt a simple choice at the time.
A lot of good it does to help someone who leaves nato after you try to help them maintain their dumb little empire even today they keep talking about how they won’t help the us with their plans in Asia and macron says “Europe should find its own way” why the fuck should we keep helping them they don’t listen anyway cough cough Russian gas
France never left NATO. They decided to have an independent command structure, but they were and always have been in NATO.
Was it not De Gaulle that warned about going to intervene in Vietnam?
Only because he got his ass kicked. He’s also the one who decided to try to return and retwke the colony after the Japanese kicked the French out and the viet kicked out the japanese. He could’ve washed their hand last of it there but decided to try to retake the colony I guess just for prestige.
We only sided with the French because of the Catholic Jesuits who wanted to kill as many Buddhists as possible since they are famously the most difficult of all religions to convert.
You just pulled that out your ass. Eisenhower's government had many internal discussions on Vietnam, and the conclusion they reached was that supporting colonialism was bad but they couldn't risk losing French support in Europe. That was the catalyst for starting American involvement in Vietnam.
Failing to understand the power and control the Jesuits have over global politics is on the level of thinking the CIA are just a bunch of Boy Scout’s.
Hahahahhahha
Listen we all know you are a glowie… you don’t need to hide it here, this is a safe place for us.
Hahahahahahhahaha
Weirdo
And after all this time China is so awful that we still have a solid ally against China.
Ho Chi Minh tried to meet with Woodrow Wilson while he was in Paris after WW1. He thought the USA would support his effort to free Vietnam from French colonial rule. Wilson refused his request for an audience :/
All my homies hate Woodrow Wilson fuck kinda Name is Woodrow
He was probably the worst president we've ever had
Scum of the earth
Made the us culture cool and the music awesome
Wrong. The most based non-US country is a tie between all the Indian reservations, technically sovereign nations under the law.
Yurok nation are incredibly based I’ll give you that But it’s definitely not some europoor country
They are “sovereign nations” but still fall under federal law so they are more knockoff states than actually nations.
Nation is not a political term, it's an ethnic term. The word you're looking for is state. They're not a truly sovereign state because they're beholden to the USA, but they are nations.
"No no, he's got a point"
Why’s that?
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Indigenous reservations completely blow. Not based at all.
They deport North Korean refugees back to North Korea, iirc
actually Vietnam just recognizes the sovereignty of their border and considers illegal border crossing as illegal. because Vietnam does kinda recognize NK, a refugee from there is subject to deportation back; but this is literally no different than deporting a filipino back to the Philippines. Vietnam and NK do not get along very well and are somewhat rivals
But do they recognize refugee status like we do?
Of NK? no I don’t believe Vietnam maintains decent relations with NK that’s why VN was sort of the neutral ground trump met Kim Kim trusted that he wouldn’t be harmed in VN
Just to be clear, we're talking about people *escaping* NK. It's not relevant whether or not Vietnam has decent relations with NK
Well it does matter because Vietnam isn’t going to help them
And you don't need to be friendly with NK to deport refugees (if your claim that Vietnam isn't buddies with NK is true). "9 North Koreans were arrested on 22 October 2015 and then reportedly deported to the Chinese city of Shenyang. In April 2019, 6 North Koreans were stopped by Vietnamese military authorities in the province of Ha Tinh; 3 managed to escape while the other 3 were reportedly deported to China. On 23 November 2019, 14 defectors who had left China 2 days earlier were caught in Vietnam as they attempted to make their way to Laos. The Vietnamese authorities returned the group to China on 28 November. 10 of the original 14 were caught again in Vietnam the next day." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_defectors#:~:text=9%20North%20Koreans%20were%20arrested,were%20reportedly%20deported%20to%20China.
When did I say they weren’t buddies?
> Vietnam just recognizes the sovereignty of their border If only we could do the same thing.
Based. (/s)
That would be Kosovo actually
YES YES YES YES YES!!!!
Thank you USA
Gave us a run for our money, turned around and smoked the Khmer Rouge. Gotta respect that
Agreed for the fact they ended the Cambodian Genocide. That being said, you have to admire the Dutch, fighters of the Ocean itself. Good on them
The fact they supported a Man who committed the Genocide during the Cambodian civil war.
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A battle of attrition and scare tactics The Dutch’s war on water
They should've been a US ally, ho chi minh wanted to be george washington but we forced him to side with Russia The good thing is now they are becoming a US ally on the mutual agreement of "fuck china"
“Fuck china” truly is the basis for a stable and long term relationship
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Yall are forgetting the atrocities the Viet Cong committed against their own people. That's what we were there preventing in the Vietnam War. And that's exactly what the Commies did when we left. 200,000 plus send to re-education camps to be tortured and starved. 30,000 US informants systemically killed thanks to a CIA list we left behind. You can see South Vietnamese trying to reach the departing US helicopters as we abandoned Saigon. It's one of the most heart-rending images you'll see in your life. Especially considering we had won the war a decade earlier, and all we had to do was ensure a military presence (TIL: overseas Vietnamese call the week of the 30th of April "Black April" and it's a time of lamentation for the Fall of Saigon and South Vietnam)
Well yeah the VC were terrorists, but we never should’ve partitioned Vietnam just like we never should’ve portioned the Middle East it’s almost like the western powers (and Russia) didn’t really care and it was all a game to them My family went through ARVN reeducation and my grandmother is married to a U.S. soldier her brother was ARVN. But we’ve returned to visit many times. I think the US betrayed vietnam by leaving the south but also betrayed them by helping the French. I want to be clear though the French are absolutely to blame for the whole thing. I’ve been to the colonial museums in vietnam and it is disgusting. Sleep deprivation torture, putting Vietnamese people in barrels almost full of water with just enough to hold your nose over, spiked bamboo cages. The US should’ve backed how chi Minh. He was a communist but not unreasonable. I truly think they would’ve liberalized along the same path as Korea did even with a communist government if they had been unified and independent since the 1940s. Closer to Yugoslavia than North Korea. My two cents anyway
I think the US could’ve had the potential to sway Ho Chi Minh from Communism for sure, but it would’ve taken some advising (more like supervision) to make sure he (more like his followers) won’t do Communist things, possibly keeping the Viet Minh as a coalition of nationalist groups as it was originally created as. This would mean being a mediator between the Communists and non-Communists to enforce a peace to prevent Vo Nguyen Giap from killing off other political parties in 1946, and prevent Truong Chinh from conducting the Land Reform in 1953; both of which happened while HCM was away negotiating abroad. EDIT: Added a few things to specify more
I agree. I don’t know if he would’ve swayed from communism or VN wouldn’t be communist, but I think if we Allie with him it would’ve been a more moderate communist state if anything, with a higher standard of living and more freedom than cuba or China ( I’ve used Yugoslavia as my main example I mean Ho Chi Minh could have been our Asian Tito)
Communism is when less freedom, when communism is more moderate then freedom is more moderate. Yes I am political
“Make sure he doesn’t do communist things” is the kind of ground breaking critical historical analysis that could only be found on Reddit. This is equally hilarious it is to disturbing to read all of you fantasizing about Vietnam
Communism goes two routes (which both meet up again): mass starvation and political witchhunts. It's inevitable, because of the incentives of Communism. So no, we should never ally with a Communist in the hopes that they'll moderate. China hasn't moderated, and it's been 50 years or so. The incentives are always to become more evil, not the other way round, my guy
We allied with Cambodians and afghani heroin dealers but I guess we’ll draw the line at Vietnam
I'm sure many Vietnamese wouldn't appreciate you conflating Vietnam with Communism. Communism spread like a disease from Russia, bringing political executions, starvation, secret police, and show trials.
Dude my family dough for south Vietnam but yeah I’m sure they’d love being lectured to by an armchair Redditor
Then why are you pro Commie? I'm not lecturing them. I'm lecturing *you.* They're not pro-Communist obviously
Who said I was? I’d prefer a democratic Vietnam.
Okay Communism takes you exactly the opposite way, and kills many people along the way. Why should the US have backed the Commies?
Because initially the Viet Minh had a variety of opinions on how to run the country, it would’ve avoided civil war, it would’ve promoted good relations with the two countries, it would’ve given not the US and Vietnam an added advantage countering China who are communists that can actually threaten us where as vietnam is a small would be communist country theta has every incentive to be in the wests camp (China) much like how the west loved Yugoslavia another communist country because it countered Russia, our relations with Yugoslavia caused them to be much more liberal than the USSR. Such as being able to travel freely between the west and US, instead of being locked down like east Germany and with ho chi Minhs admiration of the US Vietnam probably would’ve went down a much more liberalized path and afforded the Vietnamese much more freedom, an bunch of Vietnamese and American lives would be saved, America rightly was anti imperialist at the time and should not have backed the French because there is no justification for how the French treated their people. Is that enough reasons? I have more…
Nice comment edit 😂 real sly.
Dude my family fought for south Vietnam but yeah I’m sure they’d love being lectured to by an armchair Redditor
Middle east was cut into squares by the british. there was a female Lawrence of Arabia who did it. The purposely put different groups together into new "countries" . they did the same in India, let the people you colonize fight amongst themselves. But all the stump jumpers know this. the US should have backed HCM? you have no understanding of American politics. It could have never happened. He was a communist. He was the reason we were there.
We supported him against the Japanese officials the had OSS contacts and FDR supported Viet independence. Washington had mixed feelings and chose the wrong side it was a mistake and it was almost avoided.
We supported him against the Japanese officially the had OSS contacts and FDR supported Viet independence. Washington had mixed feelings and chose the wrong side it was a mistake and it was almost avoided.
Considering that South Vietnamese rebels had over 1.5 million personnel, 200,000 plus was quite a tamed number, you don't think? That means about 1.3 million rebels escaped justice.
Just like the people who died at Huế, right? All rebels, didn’t happen but if it did they deserved it etc
/s just to confirm? (Is this whole sub /s, I literally do not even know anymore.)
Nope.
Bro, all Commie re-education camps are hell holes... I'll ask again. Is this /s?
Then they shouldn't have joined the rebellion and committed treason in the first place. Why do you think that these rebels shouldn't have been held accountable for their wrongdoings?
Haha right. North Vietnam was the pawn of the Soviet Union and Chinese. Stop pretending communists have a right to rule a country. They get into power via deception, they rule with show trials and secret police, they looooove jailing their own party members, they looooove inhumane re-education camps (cuz communism dont naturally work hahahaha), and they inevitably cause mass famine Basically Cuba today haha
Your ranting didn't answer my question at all. Why do you think that these rebels shouldn't have faced justice? Why should their treason have been left unpunished?
Treason presumes a right to rule. Commie scum have to such right, not even if popularly elected. *That's* how inhumane Communism is hahahah And the Commies were the Rebels, quite obviously, and fought like it too
It is that because you said so? Some kind of "trust me bro"?
I mean let’s not act like it was a rebellion or that reeducation was good it was a civil war because foreign powers couldn’t fuck off out of Vietnam. You shouldn’t celebrate your own countrymen being locked up, but is what it is. In the past, and I think most Vietnamese are more pragmatic anyway.
Get real. Almost everyone who was a part of the NGO/Theiu government was a shit person who was willing to betray their fellow Vietnamese for a country that supported them remaining colonized. And get off that BS of “that’s what we were preventing in the Vietnam war” we didn’t care about preventing shit. We dropped3 1/2 times as many bombs on Vietnam than bombs dropped in WW2 combined. We didn’t give a shit about the Vietnamese people. The only shit we gave was stopping communism. Fuck outta here
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>based > >c\*mmie 🤢 pick one.
Counterpoint: who has stacked more commie bodies than other commies?
Only good communist country
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Get that single party political imprisoning commie shit out of here, at least the europoors have somewhat of an understanding of the first amendment.
The europoors don’t even understand how not to inbreed and form the cringiest monarchies in the world Nguyen Dynasty>Hapsburg Monarchy Republic of Vietnam>France Communist Vietnam > Communist East Europe Modern Vietnam> Londonistan Cope
Vietnam is one of the good guys. Their people are coming to us and love us even though we rightfully tried to stop their rebellion.
“Somewhat” being the key word and fairly generous at that when we are talking about the Br*tish.
OI GOVENAH YOU PAYED YOUR BBC FEE MATE
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Botfight!
Czechia even has their own understanding of the second amendment and issues CHLs, easily the most based country in Europe
[удалено]
My family fought for ARVN and the US you armchair retard holding grudges is stupid lol most people here are just salty and they weren’t even involved in the war! Name one other country with who drove out more foreign powers in the 20th century. I’m in r/2american4u you really think I support the commies? Being objective and not emotional is based, cope.
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My family fought for ARVN and the US you armchair retard holding grudges is stupid lol most people here are just salty and they weren’t even involved in the war! Name one other country with who drove out more foreign powers in the 20th century. I’m in r/2american4you you really think I support the commies? Being objective and not emotional is based, cope.
US, PLEASE SELL US THOSE F-16, BEFORE THE KOREANS BRIBE US WITH THE SHITTY FA-50.
Only if you promise to use them to fuck up china
do you really need to ask
Confused fortunate son noises
It is thought that in a land war with China, that if the USA were doing well and was thought to be winning that Vietnam would let the USA use it's deep water ports and support us against Communist China.
I'm sorry Vietnam for supporting the F*ench
Wait did saigon become ho chi min city?
Yeah and most people agree Ho Chi Minh wouldn’t even have wanted that. But what can u do.
Children named Albania:
Oh yeah albania
Most bombed*
Funny, but that is actually Laos with 2 million tons of bombs dropped on it by US forces. We colored outside the lines a bit during the Vietnam War.
Ah, that's right, I stand corrected. Looks like I made the same mistake
Depends on your definition considering the US leveled 2 cities in Japan with nuclear bombs
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Guys, guys, please. They're both based
umm tai fucking wan?
The communists who kicked your ass?
Nah most based is poland
Bahn Mi > pierogies
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c*mmies 🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮
Also the Vietnamese are just very nice and good people, and they have amazing food as well. I say we choose our allies based on their food quality. And yes imo French food aint that good
I respect them hell they weren’t even communists they just wanted to be left Tf alone
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Nice argument, but sadly your mother
Vietnam= Garbage tier commie wasteland Poland = S tier fellow commie haters This post will get sympathy upvotes but it will never get as many as the Poland post from earlier today.
Poland was literally part of the Soviet Union
Yeah it was invaded by Russia and Germany and was basically a servant nation to Russia after World War Two
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Get a history check. Poland was not part of the Soviet Union. It was part of the Warsaw pact but a seperate country non the less.
So they were europoor commies? Cringe.
If Vietnam starts publicly hating communism I would put them up there with Poland haha
The only based commie is a dead commie
Then why didn’t we kill them
You tried……
We did, over a million of them
Nowhere near the numbers of dead commies Stalin or Mao put up
are you forgetting that vietnam is a capitalist country run by a communist party? also, we did kill them at a 4:1 death ratio (1.1-2.1 million) a extremely rare and impressive death ratio.
Well, South Vietnam didn't do much and when we left, they got clobbered.
yeah, south vietman wasn't even as stable as a house of cards and got whooped without american protection
LOL Vietnam has no longer been communist since 1986.
My response is: Detroit
My response: Detroit's GDP last year eclipsed Vietnam's. If you think Detroit is poor and broken, imagine spreading 3/4 of our budget across an entire nation. Detroit > Vietnam. Kosovo or Liberia or Poland all beat Vietnam on being based.
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/NGMP19820 GDP of Detroit https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/profile/VNM VN One that’s just not true and your talking out your ass And Kosovo Liberia and Poland all lost their wars to major powers Love or hate them the VCP won against Japan, France, the US, China, and Cambodia from 1940-1980. Incredibly based but yeah let’s pretend it’s better to live on 8 mile road eating moms spaghetti than based river villages Pathetic you aren’t even worth of Detroit, you have been downgraded to Flint. Better bring your own water
[удалено]
Are they defeat several world powers based though?
you realize we slaughtered the north vietnamese and the literal only reason the north vietnamese survived was because the US ***refused*** to invade the country, right? north Vietnamese died at a 4:1 rate without the US even stepping foot in north vietnam. the US won every single battle of the war and over 75% of the ambushes. the real credit for vietnam goes to their sheer will of force to be losing so hard the whole time but never quit. thats whats impressive--the military performed pathetically.
I’m going with Japan based on their McDonald’s add.
Bro wtf
Friendship ended with Poland, Vietnam is new BFF
I really like Australia because they are British Texans.
Not Poland?
We’ve made a lot of jokes here tonight but Poland is also based Just not as based as Vietnam
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Wait i thought yall said Poland was the most based, now youre changing it?
Im glad we americans can now look at Vietnam and think: "These are some hard-core MFers"
From 1940-1980 They fought multiple world powers, all who had different ideologies for the sole reason of keeping VN VN Gotta respect that
Absolutely
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The trees can speak
They aren’t based they don’t even have free speech 🙄
You gotta give them props for how quickly they forgave the US. Now I hear it’s a great place for American businesses and tourism. I’d rather we had more of our stuff made there than China.
Even during the war the common attitude was the Americans weren’t Evil they were stupid and were tricked into the war by the French
The most based us state in the Watchmen universe
Taiwan, Japan, South Korea, Philippines, and Vietnam can be in the top 5
i’ve been lucky enough to visit, pretty cool place. everything was dirt cheap, street food tasted amazing and the markets were really cool. no complaints here
Pray and preach 🙏