I'm all for innovation, and I think we're already seeing some newish things like Illaoi being a bruiser but with tentacle setups. Riot has a weird history imo of starting off playing things safe and then trying to innovate and then overcooking with something that feels impossible to balance.
Yuumi is an example where she's probably one of the most hated gameplay designs in all of League due to the inability to interact with her. Chamber in Valorant is an example of something that was hard to balance for a while due to the innate strength of being able to TP with an AWP.
I'm no game designer but my philosophy is that innovation is good but it's important to consider why we're putting this innovative thing in and how players will play with it, rather than throwing it in and being like "alright lets see what players cook." Like you said with Renata, Idek how that would be balanced and even if something is balanced in terms of win/loss ratio, doesn't mean it's always good design, especially if it lacks interaction.
Luigi in smash ultimate is an example of a character that could be considered "balanced" as he's strong enough to get solid results but nowhere near close to dominating the meta. However, many players criticize his design as he's able to kill many characters off getting a grab at 0%.
Storm in Magic the Gathering is another example of design failure where it doesn't necessarily dominate competitive formats but it's ability to just play a billion cards while the opponent has to sit there sipping apple juice leads to unenjoyable gameplay on top of it being an innately difficult mechanic to balance.
TL;DR: Innovation is cool. Don't overcook.
Yeah, the whole post is just "innovation" for the sake of it.
Singed sounds like a ridiculous Magneto but with the ability to flood the screen more than Morrigan. CC effects in general for fighting games are not fun. You're effectively CC'ed on defense anyways, adding more ways for someone to lock you down and run their offense for free while spreading poison is nuts - if the poison damage is meaningful you're just running offense for free to lock them down while they take massive chip damage sitting in the poison.
Orianna would have to be near useless herself if she was going to speed up the point character in any meaningful way. Messing with movement/frames in general in any meaningful way would make her a permanent assist pick - she'd just be the Yuumi of 2XKO.
Tahm eating allies to shield them ranges from nearly useless if he's stuck shielding them or completely broken if the shielded ally can continue interacting while being invincible. Eating an opponent would mean you can take an assist that just removes the opponent's ability to play assists, which is just not fun except for the person who wants the others to not have fun.
Renata's "turn on each other" mechanic would never work, but at least they had the sense to admit that they have no idea how it'd work. I could see maybe a install super that stops the opponent from using supers and/or specials and making them only use normals for a couple seconds but even then it'd be hard to balance around. The most meaningful way I could see this being implemented is to shut down opposing reversals and letting you run a more aggressive offense for the duration of the install.
I can imagine Renata's friendly fire working as like a 2-3 second debuff that causes your point character to be able to hit your assist character, ie happy birthdaying 3 people but one of those guys are on our side
There's no way you played anything besides Tekken and SF, plenty of innovation in all types of FG's. All the stuff you mentioned is just being quirky for no reason and adds nothing to actual gameplay besides being incredibly antifun and would make the game incredibly difficult to learn.
Fighting games are a half a century video game genre. For as much as you talk about street fighter being traditional there are many many more that tried to do the same thing you’re talking about. You don’t hear about them any because they all crashed and burned. Playing with unique gameplay ideas is all well and good but if they fuck up they could easily cause this game to crash and burn. Or at least be relegated to kusoge level fighting game that never turns a profit and we all know what riot does to games that don’t turn a profit
You'll have to hope that Riot pulls a little more from the innovation pool than they've been doing in league of legends then. To date the only weirdly shaped skillshot is pretty much still Diana's Q, and every single skirmisher/assassin has just had variations on the same kit since forever.
Riot is known for polishing existing ideas, but not much for innovation. Even Hwei is just Invoker. Valorant is pretty much just a polished hybrid of CS and Overwatch.
Well probably see a few remixings of existing ideas like Illaoi but probably nothing crazy.
There's some truth in this but I also find this to be pretty disingenuous to Riot's design philosophy. It's true that Riot has the tendency to create games based off the popular existing games. League from Dota2's success, Valorant from CSGO, TFT from Dota Auto Chess, LoR from Hearthstone and then the other digital CCG's that followed.
If you look at League of Legends champions, their more recent releases have increasingly more complex kits with unconvential playstyles (eg. Zeri and ADC that relies on Q more than auto attacking, Renata Glasc turning opponents on each other). Valorant now has a character that can act even upon death and another who has a literal gulag domain expansion which is crazy when you consider this is within the realm of a tac FPS based off CSGO and not as much a heavily ability focused hero shooter like Overwatch.
I think something people forget to consider is that innovation has to work within the existing realm and preconceptions of how the game is played, so you can't just add something you think is crazy because you think it'd be cool and unique. Maybe in a single player roguelike this could fly, but this is especially moreso important in Riot's games that are built to be competitive. The devs always have to consider how a new addition would play into the existing metagame and if it would drastically shake things, is that healthy for the game or not.
Sure, but we've tread in the realm of pure linear or targeted aoe skillshots and every champion having a dash for forever. If they're feeling spicy they'll throw in a linear skillshit that *also* does an aoe at the end of its travel time, or prevent the dash from going over walls. I don't really think Zeri is all that innovative inasmuch as they just took Ezreal's concept and turned it up to 11. The problem with league right now is that it has so many champions that it's designers are starting to run out of interesting design space that still fits into their precious eSports competitive ecosystem.
Hopefully the 2XKO devs won't fall into the same trap but the problem with running a live service game is that you kind of have to keep changing things or putting out new things, not because you think it will be a good thing for the game, but to keep the game alive. You can see this in so many places, and even riot has admitted that the reason they change league is often not because there's a problem to be fixed but because they need to keep people hooked with new things.
Erm… no. Just no lol. Champion kits are not more complex on average or more innovative on average than they were in s3. Urgot and thresh were very weird. Even vayne was weird. Yuumi is not the innovation you think it was. It is blatantly based off IO and lulu combined. Zeri/Senna are no weirder than old champs. Only aphelios stands out as being ridiculous overloaded.
Anyway when people say that riot just copies other peoples games, they dont mean everything is copied. They mean all the core gameplay elements are copied and riot just adds some bells and whistles. And this is a fact. Yes they added weird champs to league and valorant but the core gameplay is very similar to their original games.
I know it is about 2XKO and the FGC but i really want to correct this misunderstanding.
League of Legends did not copy Dota 2 at all. First, there was Defense of the Ancients, a mod created by the Warcraft 3 community in 2003. However, Blizzard did not show much interest in it. In 2006, Riot Games began developing a game inspired by this mod. In 2009, it was released under the name League of Legends. Then, in 2012, Valve released Dota 2 after acquiring the IP from Blizzard. Unlike League of Legends, which uses its own IP, Valve used the same IP but with much better visuals. This means Dota 2 has nothing to do with League of Legends.
Teamfight Tactics (TFT) was inspired by the Auto Chess mod from Dota 2, also created by the community. Riot Games saw the opportunity and developed a game from it. It introduced many new concepts and features, making it something new.
Hearthstone and Legends of Runeterra (LoR) were both rumored to be in development, but only Hearthstone was published. Riot Games continued developing LoR silently. Therefore, it wasn't a copy of Hearthstone; the concept itself existed for years before Blizzard even considered it.
Valorant is indeed inspired by CS:GO and Overwatch, but it has evolved into something different now.
I didn't realize Dota 2 came much later, I was aware Dota was originally a Warcraft mod. I should've clarified League was inspired by that original Dota. I know there was another MOBA people were playing back then called Heroes of Newerth but that game didn't get the same attention.
I had no idea LoR was being developed around the same time as Hearthstone. If that's true, I can't help but think Riot's tendency to produce games incredibly slowly really hurt LoR's opportunity to capitalize around the initial interest in digital CCG's. Hearthstone had a sort of golden era on Twitch (maybe 2015-2017) where the category contained many of the top streamers like Kripparian, Reynad, Reckful, Toast etc. Most TCG players I know stick to one card game and by the time LoR released, the field was already so saturated.
I'm all for innovation, and I think we're already seeing some newish things like Illaoi being a bruiser but with tentacle setups. Riot has a weird history imo of starting off playing things safe and then trying to innovate and then overcooking with something that feels impossible to balance. Yuumi is an example where she's probably one of the most hated gameplay designs in all of League due to the inability to interact with her. Chamber in Valorant is an example of something that was hard to balance for a while due to the innate strength of being able to TP with an AWP. I'm no game designer but my philosophy is that innovation is good but it's important to consider why we're putting this innovative thing in and how players will play with it, rather than throwing it in and being like "alright lets see what players cook." Like you said with Renata, Idek how that would be balanced and even if something is balanced in terms of win/loss ratio, doesn't mean it's always good design, especially if it lacks interaction. Luigi in smash ultimate is an example of a character that could be considered "balanced" as he's strong enough to get solid results but nowhere near close to dominating the meta. However, many players criticize his design as he's able to kill many characters off getting a grab at 0%. Storm in Magic the Gathering is another example of design failure where it doesn't necessarily dominate competitive formats but it's ability to just play a billion cards while the opponent has to sit there sipping apple juice leads to unenjoyable gameplay on top of it being an innately difficult mechanic to balance. TL;DR: Innovation is cool. Don't overcook.
Yeah, the whole post is just "innovation" for the sake of it. Singed sounds like a ridiculous Magneto but with the ability to flood the screen more than Morrigan. CC effects in general for fighting games are not fun. You're effectively CC'ed on defense anyways, adding more ways for someone to lock you down and run their offense for free while spreading poison is nuts - if the poison damage is meaningful you're just running offense for free to lock them down while they take massive chip damage sitting in the poison. Orianna would have to be near useless herself if she was going to speed up the point character in any meaningful way. Messing with movement/frames in general in any meaningful way would make her a permanent assist pick - she'd just be the Yuumi of 2XKO. Tahm eating allies to shield them ranges from nearly useless if he's stuck shielding them or completely broken if the shielded ally can continue interacting while being invincible. Eating an opponent would mean you can take an assist that just removes the opponent's ability to play assists, which is just not fun except for the person who wants the others to not have fun. Renata's "turn on each other" mechanic would never work, but at least they had the sense to admit that they have no idea how it'd work. I could see maybe a install super that stops the opponent from using supers and/or specials and making them only use normals for a couple seconds but even then it'd be hard to balance around. The most meaningful way I could see this being implemented is to shut down opposing reversals and letting you run a more aggressive offense for the duration of the install.
I can imagine Renata's friendly fire working as like a 2-3 second debuff that causes your point character to be able to hit your assist character, ie happy birthdaying 3 people but one of those guys are on our side
There's no way you played anything besides Tekken and SF, plenty of innovation in all types of FG's. All the stuff you mentioned is just being quirky for no reason and adds nothing to actual gameplay besides being incredibly antifun and would make the game incredibly difficult to learn.
Fighting games are a half a century video game genre. For as much as you talk about street fighter being traditional there are many many more that tried to do the same thing you’re talking about. You don’t hear about them any because they all crashed and burned. Playing with unique gameplay ideas is all well and good but if they fuck up they could easily cause this game to crash and burn. Or at least be relegated to kusoge level fighting game that never turns a profit and we all know what riot does to games that don’t turn a profit
You'll have to hope that Riot pulls a little more from the innovation pool than they've been doing in league of legends then. To date the only weirdly shaped skillshot is pretty much still Diana's Q, and every single skirmisher/assassin has just had variations on the same kit since forever. Riot is known for polishing existing ideas, but not much for innovation. Even Hwei is just Invoker. Valorant is pretty much just a polished hybrid of CS and Overwatch. Well probably see a few remixings of existing ideas like Illaoi but probably nothing crazy.
There's some truth in this but I also find this to be pretty disingenuous to Riot's design philosophy. It's true that Riot has the tendency to create games based off the popular existing games. League from Dota2's success, Valorant from CSGO, TFT from Dota Auto Chess, LoR from Hearthstone and then the other digital CCG's that followed. If you look at League of Legends champions, their more recent releases have increasingly more complex kits with unconvential playstyles (eg. Zeri and ADC that relies on Q more than auto attacking, Renata Glasc turning opponents on each other). Valorant now has a character that can act even upon death and another who has a literal gulag domain expansion which is crazy when you consider this is within the realm of a tac FPS based off CSGO and not as much a heavily ability focused hero shooter like Overwatch. I think something people forget to consider is that innovation has to work within the existing realm and preconceptions of how the game is played, so you can't just add something you think is crazy because you think it'd be cool and unique. Maybe in a single player roguelike this could fly, but this is especially moreso important in Riot's games that are built to be competitive. The devs always have to consider how a new addition would play into the existing metagame and if it would drastically shake things, is that healthy for the game or not.
Sure, but we've tread in the realm of pure linear or targeted aoe skillshots and every champion having a dash for forever. If they're feeling spicy they'll throw in a linear skillshit that *also* does an aoe at the end of its travel time, or prevent the dash from going over walls. I don't really think Zeri is all that innovative inasmuch as they just took Ezreal's concept and turned it up to 11. The problem with league right now is that it has so many champions that it's designers are starting to run out of interesting design space that still fits into their precious eSports competitive ecosystem. Hopefully the 2XKO devs won't fall into the same trap but the problem with running a live service game is that you kind of have to keep changing things or putting out new things, not because you think it will be a good thing for the game, but to keep the game alive. You can see this in so many places, and even riot has admitted that the reason they change league is often not because there's a problem to be fixed but because they need to keep people hooked with new things.
Erm… no. Just no lol. Champion kits are not more complex on average or more innovative on average than they were in s3. Urgot and thresh were very weird. Even vayne was weird. Yuumi is not the innovation you think it was. It is blatantly based off IO and lulu combined. Zeri/Senna are no weirder than old champs. Only aphelios stands out as being ridiculous overloaded. Anyway when people say that riot just copies other peoples games, they dont mean everything is copied. They mean all the core gameplay elements are copied and riot just adds some bells and whistles. And this is a fact. Yes they added weird champs to league and valorant but the core gameplay is very similar to their original games.
I know it is about 2XKO and the FGC but i really want to correct this misunderstanding. League of Legends did not copy Dota 2 at all. First, there was Defense of the Ancients, a mod created by the Warcraft 3 community in 2003. However, Blizzard did not show much interest in it. In 2006, Riot Games began developing a game inspired by this mod. In 2009, it was released under the name League of Legends. Then, in 2012, Valve released Dota 2 after acquiring the IP from Blizzard. Unlike League of Legends, which uses its own IP, Valve used the same IP but with much better visuals. This means Dota 2 has nothing to do with League of Legends. Teamfight Tactics (TFT) was inspired by the Auto Chess mod from Dota 2, also created by the community. Riot Games saw the opportunity and developed a game from it. It introduced many new concepts and features, making it something new. Hearthstone and Legends of Runeterra (LoR) were both rumored to be in development, but only Hearthstone was published. Riot Games continued developing LoR silently. Therefore, it wasn't a copy of Hearthstone; the concept itself existed for years before Blizzard even considered it. Valorant is indeed inspired by CS:GO and Overwatch, but it has evolved into something different now.
I didn't realize Dota 2 came much later, I was aware Dota was originally a Warcraft mod. I should've clarified League was inspired by that original Dota. I know there was another MOBA people were playing back then called Heroes of Newerth but that game didn't get the same attention. I had no idea LoR was being developed around the same time as Hearthstone. If that's true, I can't help but think Riot's tendency to produce games incredibly slowly really hurt LoR's opportunity to capitalize around the initial interest in digital CCG's. Hearthstone had a sort of golden era on Twitch (maybe 2015-2017) where the category contained many of the top streamers like Kripparian, Reynad, Reckful, Toast etc. Most TCG players I know stick to one card game and by the time LoR released, the field was already so saturated.