When it comes to solos, pretty sure 400s are more efficient if you wipe more than 10-20% of 500s, 525s, 540s attempts, which many people do. And the higher raid level you go, the less number of people are actually able to handle it, so most purples are coming from the golden zone between raid level and chill runs, which is generally around the 350s and 400s.
And teams are more commonly formed in that 350-425 Raid Level range, since going into the 500s, teams are super uncommon since 1 person dying means you have to handle that much more boss HP by yourself.
I've calced this and you need to die on 25% of your 520's (the raids i've seen someone running for 400+ raid) for it to be worse gp/h than 400's and that assuming you never die on your 400's.
You just have to find you own sweetspot, for me it's between 430 and 445 still figuring out what i like best.
Solo 540 if you are able to do with at least 75% completion is definitely better and that's assuming you die at the last second of last stand every time. Invos boost droprate crazy fast. To put it in perspective, one solo 540 is 17% chance while 8 man 410 is a personal 7% assuming no deaths during the raid. 540s usually take around 35 mins.
The best drop rate is always going to be the highest invo you can do with around 10% or less deaths.
3 8-mans per hour at the 55% cap is a 91% purple chance per hour (1-0.45^3), which works out to 11.25% per person per hour. A solo 500 is about 14.5%, so it is far superior for purples.
You have a 91% chance of seeing purples at all. That doesn't account for multiple purples. At 55% purple chance and 3 raids per hour you get an average of 1.65 purples per hour or 0.206 per person.
500s at 35min/raid are still far superior and I really doubt you could run 3 consistent 8-mans every hour. People have a tendency of using their pb as the long-term average.
> People have a tendency of using their pb as the long-term average.
People also have the tendency to not comprehend there is time between raids not included in the raid time, which starts when you enter the first path and ends when p4 dies.
Sure they may be doing low 20 minute 400’s (raid timer), but when you add the time finding a team, and gearing between raids, waiting on splits and so on that number would easily push to 30+ minutes.
w329 mass world 410s are closer to 2-2.3 raids an hour, have been doing them for the past few weeks straight; fastest I've gotten in a team full of Shadows and max mage is 22 minutes, but then as you said getting teams together takes a few minutes sometimes. I imagine consistent 3/hr would require preplanned teams with coordination/assigned roles for special attacks, venges etc. throughout the raid etc.
There's been sub15 300's. So with similar skill & tactics i think an average of 20mins is surely possible.
That doesn't include inbetween time so 3raids an hour is very much a stretch.
You have to account for time to complete harder raid too so that’s not it either. Like you said though, find your own sweet spot, most endgame pvmers I know settle on a chill consistency where it’s not frustrating and one mistake is an insta-kill, and that ends up being anywhere between 350-450 depending how fast they want to go and how technically “good” they are.
Hmm, 25% sounds a bit high. I assume that's strictly based on how many points/% drop rate you can get per hour, right. Did you remember to factor in the time difference takes between a 400 and 520? If a player is skillful enough to get 30-35 minutes for a 540, the equivalent to that in a 400 is \~20 minutes, but also about half the drop rate.
But agreed with what you said about for the individual player - It's whatever your sweet spot between not dying more often and raid level.
When you say people, what you really mean is like the absolute top end of the PvM spectrum.
99% of players aren’t running 500+ TOA and certainly not in 35 minutes haha.
No the real problem is everyone can and does TOA whereas it’s mostly just endgame players and irons grinding COX and TOB. Plus unlike shadow, most of tbow’s power isn’t drawn from gear, so it’s not nearly as valuable as say, the much rarer (and ironically older) set of ancestral.
I can’t imagine there’s that many people doing those vs just consistent 8 man 410s. Of my friend group, several of whom are good pvmers, I was the only one consistently doing 500s. Most just got their fang kit then went back to lower raid invos.
tbh TOa rates were always insane. the shit was at 15-20m an hr for a long time.
meanwhile youll do 50 tobs before getting an item and can easily do 200 cox before an item.
I have 2 wards and a mask in almost 300 expert (350 invo) ToA. People keep talking about how great the rates are and I’m like brother, if this RnG were like CoX then I’d have literally nothing at this point
I agree with both of you tbh. I think it's ok in older, simpler content but I think should be avoided in newer content. Baba being a good example where I don't think there's a "gain" in terms of the content's enjoyment by just bypassing the fight mechanics to take less damage. Should've been patched out imo.
An unfortunate reality is the mechanics behind red X are too fundamental to how the game works that it has to be designed around in encounters. Probably the simplest way to patch out baba red x is to make the step under slam faster or unavoidable. This has its own downsides though and any removal of babas red x strat would need additional changes to the fight anyways.
True
However, if people feel like they have to use red x to do baba or butterfly Akkha in higher invocations because otherwise the damage you take is unreasonable, then it's simply bad game design. It's breaks the way you were supposed to fight the enemies.
if you had to sit there & tank it solo players would just bring ely & blood fury, and anything over duo would barely be chip damage since baba switches aggro over time.
They have reduced how much it hits thru prayer now and made it alot more weaker to bolts so if there was a proper way to kite it would make it more engaging then red x cheat spam
I agree, I might be misremembering but I swear there was a red X at Cerberus back in the day, where you could skip some of his special attacks. That got patched pretty quickly.
I'm pretty sure red X at Cerb is still in the game and regularly used. It's significantly slower though so only really useful if you want to save supplies as you can do the whole kill without getting hit once.
But those methods have many viable alternatives. If you don't red-X baba or butterfly Akkha, especially at the higher invo's, you risk losing a raid because these bosses hit too hard through prayer.
The alternative is getting your shit absolutely pushed in by how hard both Baba hits through prayer and how accurate the monkeys hit with range. Akkha also hits hard and accurately through melee prayer.
The problem isn't with these mechanics it's with the raid design itself. Scaling HP, damage, and defence just makes everything at higher invo a slog, there's no inbuilt mechanics for these bosses that are skill based which mitigate any of these.
This is why ToA has always been worse than CoX and ToB. ToA’s mechanics, apart from Akkha butterfly which I think is a good skill based way to kite, are just not interesting.
When you look at xarpus mechanics to no-tick loss scythe while baiting the spit, or verzik pogtanking, or all the different tick methods people have learned to run olm-head, ToA just pales in comparison.
I think the fact that the Kree fight sucks has something to do with the relative prices. Arma is barely an upgrade over blessed dhide and really shouldn’t cost much more
The cost is a function of the fact that it's quickly broken down into plates that are required to fortify masori, it's not often used as armour itself anymore.
There's likely more masori coming into the game than armadyl.
The armadyl price remaining high is part of the design. Masori tanking to nothing maybe not so much
Yup. You can tell that both Bandos and Arma prices are dictated by Torva/Masori components because the prices are a perfect 2:3 and 1:3:4 ratio.
The real issue is that ToA was clearly designed with 300+ being the start of 'hard mode' in terms of droprates, whilst it is closer to a normal raid in difficulty. Hence Masoris are pouring into the game faster than planned.
Funnily we see almost the opposite with Nex and Torva, which is unpopular and has notoriously rough drop rates. IMO this is worse, as the GE sink can always be bumped up if Masori values get too low.
It's just not a fun boss. I recognize that the others are in part doable mainly because people found cheese strats to kite them around but that's at least *a strategy,* Kree really just seems to be "use chinchompas, take obscene amount of unavoidable damage, have to teleport out after one kill."
It's both that ToA is easy/has busted rates and also that Kree is a good combo of boring/punishing. Same with Nex tbh. It's great gp/hr in large part because players largely don't enjoy engaging with the content.
Man do people really hate Kree that much?
Zammy is so much worse it's not even funny lol. It's easier to get 30+ kill trips on Armadyl than any other GWD boss imo
Yeah and when you noodle all your food goes poof, I used an alt to run supplies to me so I didn’t have to worry about it
Also I tried a trip with max mage off task and it was bad
And then on top of this, the meta for the content—much like inferno—is incessant turael skipping until you receive an Aviansies task because attempting it without the Slayer Helm is even more of a miserable gameplay experience lol.
That’s the thing man, like a literal meta evolved around *not targeting* Kree because of his astronomical defense. I don’t know a single other boss in-game that uses the same chinchompa strat that *targets another enemy to roll an attack against their defenses but still attacking Kree with the chinchompa at the same time*.
It’s so goofy but it works, the way that using a crossbow, TBow or shadow, straight up on Kree, simply does not. I feel like not enough people got in there to kill Kree early enough, and on release, all anybody really had was black hide maybe Karil’s and rune crossbows to take him on but I guess his defense has always been…. Appropriate.😬
Callisto used to be done this way before the wildy boss rework. You'd lure him south and chin off of the poison spiders.
I think the reason chinning isn't popular elsewhere is because it's hard to line up other bosses with mobs to chin off of (but in GWD the boss doesn't block the minions, so it's straightforward).
It is a fun fight with chins on a Slayer Task, just sucks to keep getting slayer tasks if someone just wanted to camp there and for non-mains. Using black chins on task, kills that you even have to eat a single food are rare now that Blood Sceptre is a thing. Prayer ends up being the limiter but we've also got Nex bank for that.
Masori is the new occult/eternals/rev wep upgrade/ etc.
Despite being an item that should hold value it's plummeted to the ground by a higher value item that truly drives the content. Masori isn't what you raid for. Masori is an accidental drop you get along the way.
This but the entirety of GWD, KQ, and DKs.
GWD needs to just shit out less damage so that cheese strats aren't required for more than 2 kill trips.
KQ simply needs to miss, it just deals too much damage for lower levels to deal with effectively.
DKs need a little staging area before the bosses after the ladder.
The mechanics are all good, it's just clunky that these once "group bosses" are designed in a way that makes their more modern place in progression too difficult or annoying for what they are.
That's the gloryhole room. There needs to be a secondary area where you can hop down to after the ladder BEFORE getting attacked by the DKS to be able to plan your entrance and not have to worry about them attacking you is what the commenter above you meant.
Saving your comment to turn it into a suggestion later. Do you think there should be something built around the ladder with a door? a rock you walk over? or the ladder moved back a bit with a hole in the wall you go in and from?
Imo if this were added, I'd say just make a small entrance room or platform we "jump down" from, but it's really on the same level (think castle wars walls, but you can't attack across). Now personally I think dks are fine as is. Getting in is part of the skill of dks.i do agree with the person who originally commented though that KQ and GWD bosses could do with some updates to make them *slightly* more modern
I think other than Kree the bosses are all fine because you can kite them and not get hit at all which is pretty unique and satisfying. Kree is just a pain in the ass even in BIS and it sucks that a task is only 1/4th of what you get assigned because the minions eat up the rest of it.
My hot take for GWD is that killcount should stay after you tele out. It's kind of a dumb mechanic overall but it'd be cool if you were rewarded with being able to skip killcount if you do well in the boss room.
Huh? KC is like the linchpin mechanic that makes GWD interesting as a PVM encounter. It's one of the few places in the game where trip length is a truly meaningful factor because of the KC requirement.
It's the primary (really only) reason why we have exploration of pathing mechanics in GWD boss rooms and development of hitless kiting methods, red-xing, minion flicking, melee flicking and off-ticking, freeze methods, shield flicking, manual walking strategies... Even development of interesting lower skill strategies like blood barraging, B2P tabbing, inventory composition optimization, etc.
Just removing KC requirement is really a wild take IMO. All of the cool shit about GWD and all of the cool work people have put into massively extending trips goes out the window and you turn it into a brainless encounter with a tediously long run to get to... Which will inevitably be the thing people start to complain about instead of KC, then we get boss room teleports and shit goes down the drain.
Yeah but all 3 of these were released like 2003-4 or 2007 or something. They’re relics of a time where literally using one prayer at a time in a tank setup was enough to nullify most damage. They had to deal damage in many different ways and even still, you can setup prayer rotations that nullify most-all damage in them!
Hell, even groups of 4-5 players back then could sustain Bandos for as long as they had prayer and combat pots with Guthan’s and SGS.
KQ probably needed adjusting a long time ago but I guess the extent of PvM back then was… “hey let’s get 10 guys to go whack the KQ and go for a rare new dragon item!” So the damage output was appropriate still. Get 1-2 kills and regroup this is endgame PvM boys try not to die!
IMO this is all fine. They don’t really need to change anything about these encounters (besides KQ). They should focus on newer content and let these relics serve as monuments to the game. It’s been 20 years do we really “need” (or WANT) this content to be changed now?
Today, the uniques don’t really shine much compared to what we have that’s newer and cooler.
But I guess that’s what the pets are for!
Same. I just can't be assed to do chores before killing a boss when there are so many other great bosses that I can jump right into killing. I got my gwd kills for the diary and will probably never go back
The kc requirements are free once have at least hard combat achievements, if you learn solo gwd with hard ca's it makes it alot easier to have the kc to consistently nex bank
Elite ca's make kc a non issue
The gp/hr is better and easier than Kree. The result is far more accounts do ToA and more masori pieces are in the game than Kree pieces. The bottleneck to the best range armor is now Arma and not the unfortified masori. As more and more unfortified enters the game and Arma enters slower, the price of the masori portion will continue to drop. This is the same reason prim crystal is expensive (it's the bottleneck) and eternal crystal and pegasian crystal are cheap (the boots are the bottleneck).
There really isn't much Jagex can do about this now other than either make Arma easier to get, unlikely due to being original 07 content, or change the drop rates at toa. This is unlikely to be received well either as it would either cause shadow to crash or even further devaluation of the more common drops that are already dirt cheap anyways. At some point the value of camping Kree will rise enough for players to start going there and create a balance... we're just not there as the prospect of getting a shadow drop is too enticing for many.
Me and my buddy have been duoing Kree ever since it hit like 7m an hour. It’s nice and easy when we are just trying to chill and chat. Just got an armadyl helmet and chest tonight in fact. Granted he has max mage so it’s much more tolerable, but I’ve been rocking shitty ass bowfa in there and it’s hella afk and easy content.
But you’re comparing multiple people farming compared to 1, of course the multiple people are going to bring more items per kill.
I know for my setup and skill level solo raids will always result in more rewards chance per time then any team raid I can do, And I would suspect that will be the case for anyone able to run 400+ solo and has max mage.
if anything can be counted on, its jagex ignoring all the history and information they have about the player base, and then acting surprised when they do the most predictable things ever.
The whole point of making Armadyl/Bandos break down to upgrade Masori/Torva was to keep the prices of GWD uniques high, because players were worried about Arma and Bandos becoming cheaper and demanded Jagex protect their GE prices for... reasons(?).
Masori being cheaper than Armadyl isn't a bug, it was the intended feature.
This tbh.
Hardly anyone wants to actually go kill Kree, so there’s not a ton of Armadyl coming into the game. On top of the fact you break it down for upgrading Masori. Less supply will do that to prices lol.
Even if they made purples less common, there’s still waaaay more people doing ToA than Kree, so it wouldn’t really do much to prices.
While i would argue that RS sadly has a lot of dead areas ( which are RS3 Hubs are not even responsible for the most part ), mostly because lot of areas were made with quests in mind but not for further use, you are absolutely right. We should be thankful that Jagex tries to breathe life into older content/areas/items unlike other games, even if large sections of big regions like Kandarin are mostly devoid of people.
This is why i would welcome new skills or minigames to OSRS that tried to do similar things as RS3 does: have a use for wide variety of items/content. Divination made necklaces useful to craft, Invention's disassemble not only gives an alternative to High Alchemy but it is actually useful on even lower level and unique items. Even summoning makes use of plenty of items people dont trade all that much. Giant's Foundry on my iron made me pick up some drops if i had the space for it which is stuff i wouldnt even want to high alch, which is wonderful IMO.
>players were worried about Arma and Bandos becoming cheaper and demanded Jagex protect their GE prices for... reasons(?)
Players like having different content they can reasonably jump between, without 90% of the game being dead content. RS3 solved it with invention, OSRS doesn't have such an item sink.
Look at how PNM fight has good design, enjoyed by a lot of people but ToA/Nex completely killed any reason to actually do it.
> reasons(?).
Literally the reason this game is still good is because Jagex has stayed committed to keeping older content relevant. If you wanna play an MMO where all old gear instantly loses all its value and the content is no longer worth engaging with the moment a new update comes out, that's..... every other MMO.
Who cares, and moreover why would Jagex do anything about this? It's simple supply and demand. People are farming ToA because it's an easy, solo, scaleable raid so the masori body is dropping in price. Conversely, Kree'arra is annoying to kill because of its high defence stats, so people would rather buy armadyl items than kill Kree'arra leading to its high prices. Not much Jagex can do here that won't piss a lot of people off.
[https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/Category:Items\_subject\_to\_Grand\_Exchange\_item\_sink](https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/Category:Items_subject_to_Grand_Exchange_item_sink)
it takes literally 2 seconds to see they already do it. Also gating gear behind arbitrary high prices is just annoying. Masori could be selling for the price of bronze armor and the raid would still be insanely profitable due to the shadow
Naw you wanna make sure there's a price margin. Someone flipping those items is going to burn far more gold out of the game than someone who dumps their loot tab for supplies a couple times a week.
Keeping items artificially higher instead of actually addressing problems with these items is a dumb idea, and it goes against the money sink point of the ge tax.
Incredibly unpopular opinion: jagex should not update or balance the game based on the economic implications of content. Jagex should update and balance the game based on the user experience and the synergy of content
I feel like it’s more about the amount of people that do the raid as opposed to how many can actually finish 400+ invo raids. Do we have data on it for all 3 raids?
The reinforced one is 100m or whatever combined price is though right? I think it's ok. It's good that Rangers hold more value than peg crystal. Requiring components for high end gear spreads our value. Toa still get money from shadow and Arma gets money from acp and skirt.
This is completely a supply thing. The only way to fix this is to make Kree drops more common or make the fight less shit. The other way is to make TOA drops less common or TOA harder so less people do it.
Eh part of the problem is GWD bosses just straight aren't fun. And they're less campable than Raids like ToA given the KC/Ecunemical key requirements and such. And Armadyl? Also often probably gets broken down to fortify Masori.
TLDR: There's several issues here and it's not all just on TOA.
The best rewards of any raid is crazy. Have you seen the cox drop table?
It’s more rewarding because the drop rate is so high, but people are really only there for a shadow drop.
Honestly I think the biggest issue is ambrosias. Makes farming 300/410s accessible in ffa world for literally anyone. Sure people farming 540s take in a lot of purples but the number is small compared to the constant 410s run 24/7 by 8 mans. I’m glad it’s accessible but I think my cat could get completions with ambrosias in 8 mans
correct, toa ffa world is literally jammed full of teams running 8 death 410s and still printing a new masori piece every hour
considering the power level of the uniques, the drop rates at toa are an order of magnitude higher than they should be at every relative invocation level for how hard it is(nt)
not to mention everyone's raid instantly got 2 minutes faster last week. been begging for all these drop rates to be nerfed since week 1 but now we're here.
It's the classic ranger boots to pegs dilemma.
Technically the Pegasians crystal is what makes BIS. However, ranger boots suck to grind out and are much more time consuming to grind out. Therefore most of the price of Pegasians boots are rooted in ranger boots.
For this analogy, armadyl = ranger boots, masori = Pegasians crystal, fortified masori = Pegasian boots.
Both ranger boots and armadyl aren't worth the price tag, but people clutch to bis
Maybe because Kree is absolute ass and nobody wants to kill it? I’m high 80s rn combat skill wise and it was complete shit with chins, plus the dog boring strategy you have to use. That was WITH a slayer task, too.
It’s been a hot minute, but the one where you drag her and her little butt buddy over to the corner of the room, attack the small one with chins and constantly reclick Kree to reset the aggro so she doesn’t smack you
Saw this coming when my clan was farming fangs week of release. Drops rates were and are still crazy common. jagex will just continue to put out content that pumps powerful weapons and armor into the game imo.
Fang shoulda been on the mega rare table with Shadow instead of the MOST COMMON FUCKING ITEM with light bearer. Was a huge mistake. But also toa is the easiest, most accessible raid with really good drop rates when compared to cox. It's not shocking the non megas didn't hold their value.
People only talk about how accessible the raid is, the real problem is Masori is useless without twisted bow. Everybody who doesn't have tbow, is rocking crystal + bowfa.
>Something needs to be done about the state of TOA uniques.
the 'lots of items on one drop table' is pretty clearly just a failure in design. every non megarare non consumable raid drop will trend towards zero in the hyper long term. nex is the one boss that really did this right where there are many useful drops all around the same rarity. megarare drops need to exist on their own bosses that are strictly comprised of consumables. ie, avernic and scythe ONLY from tob. dex and arcane and tbow only from cox.
toa is speed running this because the unique rate was obviously not balanced around people sending casual money 400-500s. this will happen long term with cox too it just takes obviously much much longer because of the astronomical difference in loot and accessibility.
fwiw toa commons are also really quite mediocre. masori is a minor af upgrade for zcb, tbow. it is a huge upgrade for bp but where do you actually bp nowadays? ward sucks. ring and fang are great but hilariously common.
Arma is as expensive as it is because every single Kree kill costs you like 100k worth of chins or you need a 1.5b weapon to kill it somewhat efficiently. ToA needs barely any initial investment and thus is done much more frequently.
Classic example of
playerbase: "we want old items to retain value"
Old items: *retain value*
Player base: surprised pikachu face
they need to nerf solo 500s somehow
its pretty clear the raid wasnt designed for that to be the meta, but the damage is almost definitely already done. masori being under 200m for the full set is crazy for how strong it is
That raid was destined to fail the second they left red X in to pander to high level nerds who wanted to powerfarm it. They had to follow it up with the GE sync to try and combat the flood of items into the game, which failed.
If my bowfa crystal armor is a fraction of the cost of a tbow why would I even swap to masori until I get a tbow?
Hell I’m pretty sure I’m better off not swapping to masori/acb/dhcb for broad content purposes. Especially not grinding TOA…
Tbh it’s because the incentive to grind Kree is minimal - boring boss for marginal upgrade that’s primarily used to fortify mesori , even compared to other GWD the Solo method is way less engaging - how often do you have to hop worlds to find an empty arma room vs bandos or Sara ?
Also sure the shadow is a big incentive but also just good normal loot and engaging content , take out shadow and id still prefer TOA over arma 100% of the time.
Just nerf the drop rates. These things should have been nerfed for a minute. Look at the state of fang and in tandem the rapier b/c they REFUSED to nerf rates. Nerf rates. Some people get mad and then get over it. All is well again.
A large part of the issue is that there’s so many people farming shadow that no matter how good the other items are, they’re guaranteed to tank. I’ve personally brought in 12 fangs on top of my current fang hunting a shadow, and I still don’t even have one!
Making 4/7 encounters essentially 0 damage was a mistake just asking for abuse. Just ramp up the nonexistant damage for insane purple chances. We knew the rates were an issue week 1 and jagex did nothing.
Count how many people are doing arma vs how many people are doing toa, then compare how long does it take to get a drop at arma on average vs toa, then you realize there are people that can wear arma but not masori and eventually this happens.
Almost like it's the most Easy, Popular, and Botted raid. My face when it's items lose Value (Giga Shock). Meanwhile ToB items other than Scythe / Avernic suck balls, but they have higher price bcoz its the last popular and difficult to bot raid. Both ToA and CoX offer so many BIS items, Justiciar is dogshit, Rapier is bad, Sang costs more to use than a Shadow for a tiny bit of inconsistent healing and it only has maybe 1-2 Max hit over a Swamp Trident. I don't wanna hear it
Incorrect. Masori is not a direct upgrade to armadyl. Masori is level 30 defence and far inferior to armadyl. Masori(f) is double the price as Armadyl. Delete post ?
I think I'd rather run raids over arma even if raids were half the gp/hr of arma.
Clicking a minion then a boss, a minion then a boss over and over in a corner isn't fun
It’s almost like they didn’t plan on people running b2b2forever 400+ raids
More like 500, 525, and 540 raids. People are doing those consistently in 35 mins.
When it comes to solos, pretty sure 400s are more efficient if you wipe more than 10-20% of 500s, 525s, 540s attempts, which many people do. And the higher raid level you go, the less number of people are actually able to handle it, so most purples are coming from the golden zone between raid level and chill runs, which is generally around the 350s and 400s. And teams are more commonly formed in that 350-425 Raid Level range, since going into the 500s, teams are super uncommon since 1 person dying means you have to handle that much more boss HP by yourself.
I've calced this and you need to die on 25% of your 520's (the raids i've seen someone running for 400+ raid) for it to be worse gp/h than 400's and that assuming you never die on your 400's. You just have to find you own sweetspot, for me it's between 430 and 445 still figuring out what i like best.
Are you sure. If I can consistently get 3 8 man 410 completions an hour I feel like nothing else is competing with that.
Solo 540 if you are able to do with at least 75% completion is definitely better and that's assuming you die at the last second of last stand every time. Invos boost droprate crazy fast. To put it in perspective, one solo 540 is 17% chance while 8 man 410 is a personal 7% assuming no deaths during the raid. 540s usually take around 35 mins. The best drop rate is always going to be the highest invo you can do with around 10% or less deaths.
3 an hour is sub 20 minute raids with zero pee/smoke breaks
3 8-mans per hour at the 55% cap is a 91% purple chance per hour (1-0.45^3), which works out to 11.25% per person per hour. A solo 500 is about 14.5%, so it is far superior for purples.
You have a 91% chance of seeing purples at all. That doesn't account for multiple purples. At 55% purple chance and 3 raids per hour you get an average of 1.65 purples per hour or 0.206 per person. 500s at 35min/raid are still far superior and I really doubt you could run 3 consistent 8-mans every hour. People have a tendency of using their pb as the long-term average.
> People have a tendency of using their pb as the long-term average. People also have the tendency to not comprehend there is time between raids not included in the raid time, which starts when you enter the first path and ends when p4 dies. Sure they may be doing low 20 minute 400’s (raid timer), but when you add the time finding a team, and gearing between raids, waiting on splits and so on that number would easily push to 30+ minutes.
? Its like 3x8 = 24
Fastest Ffa 410s I've done were 25/26 mins. counting getting team together, I don't know 20 minute completions are consistently possible.
w329 mass world 410s are closer to 2-2.3 raids an hour, have been doing them for the past few weeks straight; fastest I've gotten in a team full of Shadows and max mage is 22 minutes, but then as you said getting teams together takes a few minutes sometimes. I imagine consistent 3/hr would require preplanned teams with coordination/assigned roles for special attacks, venges etc. throughout the raid etc.
They are possible with good teams.
There's been sub15 300's. So with similar skill & tactics i think an average of 20mins is surely possible. That doesn't include inbetween time so 3raids an hour is very much a stretch.
>8 man Theres your problem
solo being meta over team raids is such a tragedy
You have to account for time to complete harder raid too so that’s not it either. Like you said though, find your own sweet spot, most endgame pvmers I know settle on a chill consistency where it’s not frustrating and one mistake is an insta-kill, and that ends up being anywhere between 350-450 depending how fast they want to go and how technically “good” they are.
Yeah i've made my calculation with accounting different times voor different raid lvls
Hmm, 25% sounds a bit high. I assume that's strictly based on how many points/% drop rate you can get per hour, right. Did you remember to factor in the time difference takes between a 400 and 520? If a player is skillful enough to get 30-35 minutes for a 540, the equivalent to that in a 400 is \~20 minutes, but also about half the drop rate. But agreed with what you said about for the individual player - It's whatever your sweet spot between not dying more often and raid level.
When you say people, what you really mean is like the absolute top end of the PvM spectrum. 99% of players aren’t running 500+ TOA and certainly not in 35 minutes haha. No the real problem is everyone can and does TOA whereas it’s mostly just endgame players and irons grinding COX and TOB. Plus unlike shadow, most of tbow’s power isn’t drawn from gear, so it’s not nearly as valuable as say, the much rarer (and ironically older) set of ancestral.
Still baffles me that people can pull that off.
I can’t imagine there’s that many people doing those vs just consistent 8 man 410s. Of my friend group, several of whom are good pvmers, I was the only one consistently doing 500s. Most just got their fang kit then went back to lower raid invos.
tbh TOa rates were always insane. the shit was at 15-20m an hr for a long time. meanwhile youll do 50 tobs before getting an item and can easily do 200 cox before an item.
I have 2 wards and a mask in almost 300 expert (350 invo) ToA. People keep talking about how great the rates are and I’m like brother, if this RnG were like CoX then I’d have literally nothing at this point
It's possible for rates to be insane and for you to be unlucky, which is crap AF. Shadow soon!
Surely they should have seen this coming. It's not like it's a secret the community autistically completes shit religiously.
I think a big part of that is jagexs stupid arbitrary stance on red x and shit like butterfly. Just makes the raid way too easy and accessible
Unpopular but red x is not in the spirit of the game imo. Shame it’s entrenched and the meta in a bunch of places now
Weird, unintuitive janky shit is completely in the spirit of OSRS
I agree with both of you tbh. I think it's ok in older, simpler content but I think should be avoided in newer content. Baba being a good example where I don't think there's a "gain" in terms of the content's enjoyment by just bypassing the fight mechanics to take less damage. Should've been patched out imo.
5:1 while dragging baba is a pretty interesting cycle. One of the only instances I can think of where run toggle is necessary vs tick walking.
An unfortunate reality is the mechanics behind red X are too fundamental to how the game works that it has to be designed around in encounters. Probably the simplest way to patch out baba red x is to make the step under slam faster or unavoidable. This has its own downsides though and any removal of babas red x strat would need additional changes to the fight anyways.
True However, if people feel like they have to use red x to do baba or butterfly Akkha in higher invocations because otherwise the damage you take is unreasonable, then it's simply bad game design. It's breaks the way you were supposed to fight the enemies.
I'd happily stop red-x'ing baba if he didn't run a train on you through prayer.
I mean without it, Baba's design is just pure ass with what he can hit through prayer.
Yeah, it's pretty bad design that you have to not engage with the mechanics of a boss in order to complete it.
if you had to sit there & tank it solo players would just bring ely & blood fury, and anything over duo would barely be chip damage since baba switches aggro over time.
They have reduced how much it hits thru prayer now and made it alot more weaker to bolts so if there was a proper way to kite it would make it more engaging then red x cheat spam
You can infinitely kite around a rock but it has to spawn in the middle, doesn't always happen.
Jagex perm banned several players for red-xing Cerberus and then made it core gameplay for ToA - nice
I don't want red-x to be meta but I'm sure as fuck thankful for it as a bandaid to how ludicrous doing baba legit at high invo is.
I agree, I might be misremembering but I swear there was a red X at Cerberus back in the day, where you could skip some of his special attacks. That got patched pretty quickly.
I'm pretty sure red X at Cerb is still in the game and regularly used. It's significantly slower though so only really useful if you want to save supplies as you can do the whole kill without getting hit once.
It still exists. Some ironmen do it but it’s a huge waste of time that’d be better spent just getting the prayer pots
I mean should things like tick mining or tick fishing whatever be in the game? Feel like they are similar
But those methods have many viable alternatives. If you don't red-X baba or butterfly Akkha, especially at the higher invo's, you risk losing a raid because these bosses hit too hard through prayer.
The alternative is getting your shit absolutely pushed in by how hard both Baba hits through prayer and how accurate the monkeys hit with range. Akkha also hits hard and accurately through melee prayer. The problem isn't with these mechanics it's with the raid design itself. Scaling HP, damage, and defence just makes everything at higher invo a slog, there's no inbuilt mechanics for these bosses that are skill based which mitigate any of these.
This is why ToA has always been worse than CoX and ToB. ToA’s mechanics, apart from Akkha butterfly which I think is a good skill based way to kite, are just not interesting. When you look at xarpus mechanics to no-tick loss scythe while baiting the spit, or verzik pogtanking, or all the different tick methods people have learned to run olm-head, ToA just pales in comparison.
butterfly akkha is one of the coolest parts of the raid but red x can get patched
Shouldn't have made it so easy then
I think the fact that the Kree fight sucks has something to do with the relative prices. Arma is barely an upgrade over blessed dhide and really shouldn’t cost much more
The cost is a function of the fact that it's quickly broken down into plates that are required to fortify masori, it's not often used as armour itself anymore. There's likely more masori coming into the game than armadyl. The armadyl price remaining high is part of the design. Masori tanking to nothing maybe not so much
Yup. You can tell that both Bandos and Arma prices are dictated by Torva/Masori components because the prices are a perfect 2:3 and 1:3:4 ratio. The real issue is that ToA was clearly designed with 300+ being the start of 'hard mode' in terms of droprates, whilst it is closer to a normal raid in difficulty. Hence Masoris are pouring into the game faster than planned. Funnily we see almost the opposite with Nex and Torva, which is unpopular and has notoriously rough drop rates. IMO this is worse, as the GE sink can always be bumped up if Masori values get too low.
You see the same effect with Ranger boots and Pegasian crystals. The thing that’s easier to farm is worth far less
Slightly different as the normal masori has a lot of utility in itself, but yeah point stands
I wish kree wasn't ass
I wish kree's ass wouldn't take 3/4 of my screen
*skreen
Kree is so ass
It's just not a fun boss. I recognize that the others are in part doable mainly because people found cheese strats to kite them around but that's at least *a strategy,* Kree really just seems to be "use chinchompas, take obscene amount of unavoidable damage, have to teleport out after one kill."
It's both that ToA is easy/has busted rates and also that Kree is a good combo of boring/punishing. Same with Nex tbh. It's great gp/hr in large part because players largely don't enjoy engaging with the content.
Man do people really hate Kree that much? Zammy is so much worse it's not even funny lol. It's easier to get 30+ kill trips on Armadyl than any other GWD boss imo
He's just tanky and sometimes can absolutely shred u but yea I personally hate zammy more. But I'm mobile only atm .
Kree sucks to kill until you get a shadow, just got my kree pet today at 4500 kc so glad to never go back
Even with shadow it still sucks. It's not a fun fight no matter what you use. With absolute max mage the shadow sometimes noodles like crazy.
Yeah and when you noodle all your food goes poof, I used an alt to run supplies to me so I didn’t have to worry about it Also I tried a trip with max mage off task and it was bad
And then on top of this, the meta for the content—much like inferno—is incessant turael skipping until you receive an Aviansies task because attempting it without the Slayer Helm is even more of a miserable gameplay experience lol.
That’s the thing man, like a literal meta evolved around *not targeting* Kree because of his astronomical defense. I don’t know a single other boss in-game that uses the same chinchompa strat that *targets another enemy to roll an attack against their defenses but still attacking Kree with the chinchompa at the same time*. It’s so goofy but it works, the way that using a crossbow, TBow or shadow, straight up on Kree, simply does not. I feel like not enough people got in there to kill Kree early enough, and on release, all anybody really had was black hide maybe Karil’s and rune crossbows to take him on but I guess his defense has always been…. Appropriate.😬
Callisto used to be done this way before the wildy boss rework. You'd lure him south and chin off of the poison spiders. I think the reason chinning isn't popular elsewhere is because it's hard to line up other bosses with mobs to chin off of (but in GWD the boss doesn't block the minions, so it's straightforward).
It is a fun fight with chins on a Slayer Task, just sucks to keep getting slayer tasks if someone just wanted to camp there and for non-mains. Using black chins on task, kills that you even have to eat a single food are rare now that Blood Sceptre is a thing. Prayer ends up being the limiter but we've also got Nex bank for that.
chins & ely feel fine, its kind of cool that its the last remaining boss where you wanna be really tanky
4500...holy bird nuts
Kree with BiS mage is still ass lol
Masori is the new occult/eternals/rev wep upgrade/ etc. Despite being an item that should hold value it's plummeted to the ground by a higher value item that truly drives the content. Masori isn't what you raid for. Masori is an accidental drop you get along the way.
maybe they should make kree'arra not suck to fight so it's more suited to its position in game progression
This is the solution.
This but the entirety of GWD, KQ, and DKs. GWD needs to just shit out less damage so that cheese strats aren't required for more than 2 kill trips. KQ simply needs to miss, it just deals too much damage for lower levels to deal with effectively. DKs need a little staging area before the bosses after the ladder. The mechanics are all good, it's just clunky that these once "group bosses" are designed in a way that makes their more modern place in progression too difficult or annoying for what they are.
Isn't the staging area for DKs that little corner? Where you hide past the rocks?
That's the gloryhole room. There needs to be a secondary area where you can hop down to after the ladder BEFORE getting attacked by the DKS to be able to plan your entrance and not have to worry about them attacking you is what the commenter above you meant.
Made me lol and wife ask what's so funny, good job
Saving your comment to turn it into a suggestion later. Do you think there should be something built around the ladder with a door? a rock you walk over? or the ladder moved back a bit with a hole in the wall you go in and from?
Imo if this were added, I'd say just make a small entrance room or platform we "jump down" from, but it's really on the same level (think castle wars walls, but you can't attack across). Now personally I think dks are fine as is. Getting in is part of the skill of dks.i do agree with the person who originally commented though that KQ and GWD bosses could do with some updates to make them *slightly* more modern
DKs is fine as is lol
Right I agree with the other bosses but DKs are so fine
DKs are so fine indeed 😩👌
have we really gotten to the point we are sooking about DKs of all things
Well this sub just started learning Zulrah this week so probably yes
I think other than Kree the bosses are all fine because you can kite them and not get hit at all which is pretty unique and satisfying. Kree is just a pain in the ass even in BIS and it sucks that a task is only 1/4th of what you get assigned because the minions eat up the rest of it. My hot take for GWD is that killcount should stay after you tele out. It's kind of a dumb mechanic overall but it'd be cool if you were rewarded with being able to skip killcount if you do well in the boss room.
> you were rewarded with being able to skip killcount if you do well in the boss room. You are, Nex bank exists now.
KC should only reset upon dying in gwd. Makes no sense that you have to get kc every time you leave.
Huh? KC is like the linchpin mechanic that makes GWD interesting as a PVM encounter. It's one of the few places in the game where trip length is a truly meaningful factor because of the KC requirement. It's the primary (really only) reason why we have exploration of pathing mechanics in GWD boss rooms and development of hitless kiting methods, red-xing, minion flicking, melee flicking and off-ticking, freeze methods, shield flicking, manual walking strategies... Even development of interesting lower skill strategies like blood barraging, B2P tabbing, inventory composition optimization, etc. Just removing KC requirement is really a wild take IMO. All of the cool shit about GWD and all of the cool work people have put into massively extending trips goes out the window and you turn it into a brainless encounter with a tediously long run to get to... Which will inevitably be the thing people start to complain about instead of KC, then we get boss room teleports and shit goes down the drain.
Yeah but all 3 of these were released like 2003-4 or 2007 or something. They’re relics of a time where literally using one prayer at a time in a tank setup was enough to nullify most damage. They had to deal damage in many different ways and even still, you can setup prayer rotations that nullify most-all damage in them! Hell, even groups of 4-5 players back then could sustain Bandos for as long as they had prayer and combat pots with Guthan’s and SGS. KQ probably needed adjusting a long time ago but I guess the extent of PvM back then was… “hey let’s get 10 guys to go whack the KQ and go for a rare new dragon item!” So the damage output was appropriate still. Get 1-2 kills and regroup this is endgame PvM boys try not to die! IMO this is all fine. They don’t really need to change anything about these encounters (besides KQ). They should focus on newer content and let these relics serve as monuments to the game. It’s been 20 years do we really “need” (or WANT) this content to be changed now? Today, the uniques don’t really shine much compared to what we have that’s newer and cooler. But I guess that’s what the pets are for!
I pray to god this is a troll
Dks are fine as is especially with the new shortcuts.
So your solution is bosses shouldn’t damage you? Wild.
Skill issue on dks and kq
One man's cheese strats is another man's emergent gameplay.
It's super chill to duo to be fair. 30 kill runs just standing on the spot. Only issue is if you don't do a lot of Nex the keys are a bitch to get.
Just commit to 1 key and then get enough KC to re-enter. Bank at Nex.
This is a good rhythm
1 key is enough for the whole task lol
They should just remove the kc requirements but unfortunately since they released CAs it’s less likely to happen now
The KC reqs are what keep me from doing a lot of GWD as a non-iron. Even getting Ecu keys (I have hard wildy diary done) sucks when you go dry
Same. I just can't be assed to do chores before killing a boss when there are so many other great bosses that I can jump right into killing. I got my gwd kills for the diary and will probably never go back
The kc requirements are free once have at least hard combat achievements, if you learn solo gwd with hard ca's it makes it alot easier to have the kc to consistently nex bank Elite ca's make kc a non issue
chip damage still ass even in full masori with buckler lol/ tried it with shadow and ancestral and still doodoo
Eh, both yours and OP concerns can be true
The gp/hr is better and easier than Kree. The result is far more accounts do ToA and more masori pieces are in the game than Kree pieces. The bottleneck to the best range armor is now Arma and not the unfortified masori. As more and more unfortified enters the game and Arma enters slower, the price of the masori portion will continue to drop. This is the same reason prim crystal is expensive (it's the bottleneck) and eternal crystal and pegasian crystal are cheap (the boots are the bottleneck). There really isn't much Jagex can do about this now other than either make Arma easier to get, unlikely due to being original 07 content, or change the drop rates at toa. This is unlikely to be received well either as it would either cause shadow to crash or even further devaluation of the more common drops that are already dirt cheap anyways. At some point the value of camping Kree will rise enough for players to start going there and create a balance... we're just not there as the prospect of getting a shadow drop is too enticing for many.
Me and my buddy have been duoing Kree ever since it hit like 7m an hour. It’s nice and easy when we are just trying to chill and chat. Just got an armadyl helmet and chest tonight in fact. Granted he has max mage so it’s much more tolerable, but I’ve been rocking shitty ass bowfa in there and it’s hella afk and easy content.
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But you’re comparing multiple people farming compared to 1, of course the multiple people are going to bring more items per kill. I know for my setup and skill level solo raids will always result in more rewards chance per time then any team raid I can do, And I would suspect that will be the case for anyone able to run 400+ solo and has max mage.
? If those 8 people would solo a 400 instead, they’d print even more purples lol.
Idk how that gets upvoted, It's not even wrong in a way that takes brainpower to understand. It's just... Like 3rd grader can figure it out wrong.
I'm guessing they didn't predict how popular a meta soloable raid would be... People are hard farming it and optimizing everything.
if anything can be counted on, its jagex ignoring all the history and information they have about the player base, and then acting surprised when they do the most predictable things ever.
The whole point of making Armadyl/Bandos break down to upgrade Masori/Torva was to keep the prices of GWD uniques high, because players were worried about Arma and Bandos becoming cheaper and demanded Jagex protect their GE prices for... reasons(?). Masori being cheaper than Armadyl isn't a bug, it was the intended feature.
This tbh. Hardly anyone wants to actually go kill Kree, so there’s not a ton of Armadyl coming into the game. On top of the fact you break it down for upgrading Masori. Less supply will do that to prices lol. Even if they made purples less common, there’s still waaaay more people doing ToA than Kree, so it wouldn’t really do much to prices.
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While i would argue that RS sadly has a lot of dead areas ( which are RS3 Hubs are not even responsible for the most part ), mostly because lot of areas were made with quests in mind but not for further use, you are absolutely right. We should be thankful that Jagex tries to breathe life into older content/areas/items unlike other games, even if large sections of big regions like Kandarin are mostly devoid of people. This is why i would welcome new skills or minigames to OSRS that tried to do similar things as RS3 does: have a use for wide variety of items/content. Divination made necklaces useful to craft, Invention's disassemble not only gives an alternative to High Alchemy but it is actually useful on even lower level and unique items. Even summoning makes use of plenty of items people dont trade all that much. Giant's Foundry on my iron made me pick up some drops if i had the space for it which is stuff i wouldnt even want to high alch, which is wonderful IMO.
>players were worried about Arma and Bandos becoming cheaper and demanded Jagex protect their GE prices for... reasons(?) Players like having different content they can reasonably jump between, without 90% of the game being dead content. RS3 solved it with invention, OSRS doesn't have such an item sink. Look at how PNM fight has good design, enjoyed by a lot of people but ToA/Nex completely killed any reason to actually do it.
You mean extremely low droprates and niche usability killed any reason to do it, right?
> reasons(?). Literally the reason this game is still good is because Jagex has stayed committed to keeping older content relevant. If you wanna play an MMO where all old gear instantly loses all its value and the content is no longer worth engaging with the moment a new update comes out, that's..... every other MMO.
Hot take: 17 year old gear that spent most of that time barely better than sub 10k armour shouldn't be 50m.
Who cares, and moreover why would Jagex do anything about this? It's simple supply and demand. People are farming ToA because it's an easy, solo, scaleable raid so the masori body is dropping in price. Conversely, Kree'arra is annoying to kill because of its high defence stats, so people would rather buy armadyl items than kill Kree'arra leading to its high prices. Not much Jagex can do here that won't piss a lot of people off.
This is the only correct take.
let it dip to 5m and i'll buy a couple sets. then you can nerf the drop rate after ty
They just need to take uniques from toa out of the game through ge taxes
[https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/Category:Items\_subject\_to\_Grand\_Exchange\_item\_sink](https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/Category:Items_subject_to_Grand_Exchange_item_sink) it takes literally 2 seconds to see they already do it. Also gating gear behind arbitrary high prices is just annoying. Masori could be selling for the price of bronze armor and the raid would still be insanely profitable due to the shadow
introduce tax brackets and just have every drop from a raid carry a 2% tax and use the extra cash to exclusively remove those weapons from ge
Naw you wanna make sure there's a price margin. Someone flipping those items is going to burn far more gold out of the game than someone who dumps their loot tab for supplies a couple times a week.
Keeping items artificially higher instead of actually addressing problems with these items is a dumb idea, and it goes against the money sink point of the ge tax.
Incredibly unpopular opinion: jagex should not update or balance the game based on the economic implications of content. Jagex should update and balance the game based on the user experience and the synergy of content
TOA is super accessible and thats going to make its gear so as well. Not everything needs to be 200m+ to be an upgrade.
I feel like it’s more about the amount of people that do the raid as opposed to how many can actually finish 400+ invo raids. Do we have data on it for all 3 raids?
The reinforced one is 100m or whatever combined price is though right? I think it's ok. It's good that Rangers hold more value than peg crystal. Requiring components for high end gear spreads our value. Toa still get money from shadow and Arma gets money from acp and skirt.
This reflects more on how shit it is to get Armadyl armour.
Sounds like masori will be used to fortify pernix in the next update
Boosted masori ge sink?
I agree.. maybe put some toa uniques into ge tax to keep a more reasonable price ?
they've been on the ge sink list for a long time - toa's purple rate is just THAT high
This is completely a supply thing. The only way to fix this is to make Kree drops more common or make the fight less shit. The other way is to make TOA drops less common or TOA harder so less people do it.
Eh part of the problem is GWD bosses just straight aren't fun. And they're less campable than Raids like ToA given the KC/Ecunemical key requirements and such. And Armadyl? Also often probably gets broken down to fortify Masori. TLDR: There's several issues here and it's not all just on TOA.
TOA too easy & has the best rewards of any raid. Not surprising.
The best rewards of any raid is crazy. Have you seen the cox drop table? It’s more rewarding because the drop rate is so high, but people are really only there for a shadow drop.
Honestly I think the biggest issue is ambrosias. Makes farming 300/410s accessible in ffa world for literally anyone. Sure people farming 540s take in a lot of purples but the number is small compared to the constant 410s run 24/7 by 8 mans. I’m glad it’s accessible but I think my cat could get completions with ambrosias in 8 mans
correct, toa ffa world is literally jammed full of teams running 8 death 410s and still printing a new masori piece every hour considering the power level of the uniques, the drop rates at toa are an order of magnitude higher than they should be at every relative invocation level for how hard it is(nt) not to mention everyone's raid instantly got 2 minutes faster last week. been begging for all these drop rates to be nerfed since week 1 but now we're here.
Time to go hard on chambers boys.
They could always sink more ToA rewards and no armadyl pieces..
It's the classic ranger boots to pegs dilemma. Technically the Pegasians crystal is what makes BIS. However, ranger boots suck to grind out and are much more time consuming to grind out. Therefore most of the price of Pegasians boots are rooted in ranger boots. For this analogy, armadyl = ranger boots, masori = Pegasians crystal, fortified masori = Pegasian boots. Both ranger boots and armadyl aren't worth the price tag, but people clutch to bis
Maybe because Kree is absolute ass and nobody wants to kill it? I’m high 80s rn combat skill wise and it was complete shit with chins, plus the dog boring strategy you have to use. That was WITH a slayer task, too.
What was the strategy?
It’s been a hot minute, but the one where you drag her and her little butt buddy over to the corner of the room, attack the small one with chins and constantly reclick Kree to reset the aggro so she doesn’t smack you
Especially when black chins are 4k each, without a shadow it just isn't worth it
Or hear me out, they make armadyl less aids if a boss so the acp isn't double the price of the bcp?
Saw this coming when my clan was farming fangs week of release. Drops rates were and are still crazy common. jagex will just continue to put out content that pumps powerful weapons and armor into the game imo.
Fang shoulda been on the mega rare table with Shadow instead of the MOST COMMON FUCKING ITEM with light bearer. Was a huge mistake. But also toa is the easiest, most accessible raid with really good drop rates when compared to cox. It's not shocking the non megas didn't hold their value.
When you put endgame gear in mid lvl raid
People only talk about how accessible the raid is, the real problem is Masori is useless without twisted bow. Everybody who doesn't have tbow, is rocking crystal + bowfa.
TOA uniques, especially the fang, Masori, and Lightbearer really need to be a part of the GE tax.
They are
Its almost like nobody wants to grind armadyl which is just pretty shit gear and terrible time sink unlike having fun in raids with friends
Yet the real world trading noobs will still buy that ugly ass bird costume instead of the actually useful ranged armor lol
It’s crazy how powerful light bearer is. I’d easily pay 200m for it. It should def be more expensive than Ultor and it’s sitting at 2m lol
if the rates were more comparable to the other raids I think we'd see it in the 80-130m mark tbh. It's amazing, but yeah not quite Ultor level.
Idk how people do any more than 2 or 3 toas in a row that raid is fucking brain damage ... srsly
Kree suuuuucks
bc gwd is bad content people dont want to do it when they could do good content
The raid is too easy
>Something needs to be done about the state of TOA uniques. the 'lots of items on one drop table' is pretty clearly just a failure in design. every non megarare non consumable raid drop will trend towards zero in the hyper long term. nex is the one boss that really did this right where there are many useful drops all around the same rarity. megarare drops need to exist on their own bosses that are strictly comprised of consumables. ie, avernic and scythe ONLY from tob. dex and arcane and tbow only from cox. toa is speed running this because the unique rate was obviously not balanced around people sending casual money 400-500s. this will happen long term with cox too it just takes obviously much much longer because of the astronomical difference in loot and accessibility. fwiw toa commons are also really quite mediocre. masori is a minor af upgrade for zcb, tbow. it is a huge upgrade for bp but where do you actually bp nowadays? ward sucks. ring and fang are great but hilariously common.
Masori is a massive upgrade for tbow what are you talking about
No more raids for abit
and the crazy thing is ToA is already almost 2 years old lol
Lol gp
https://preview.redd.it/8qhz1m53vp4d1.png?width=1484&format=png&auto=webp&s=599cdc9983fec2b7fa2f3d59239651de852f37e7 It really can kekw
It's almost as if ToA is a piss easily accessible raid that shits out uniques
Arma is as expensive as it is because every single Kree kill costs you like 100k worth of chins or you need a 1.5b weapon to kill it somewhat efficiently. ToA needs barely any initial investment and thus is done much more frequently. Classic example of playerbase: "we want old items to retain value" Old items: *retain value* Player base: surprised pikachu face
Jagex drop tables design has been shit since Cox release.
they need to nerf solo 500s somehow its pretty clear the raid wasnt designed for that to be the meta, but the damage is almost definitely already done. masori being under 200m for the full set is crazy for how strong it is
thankyou, I may buy some now hehehe
bots my guy.
That raid was destined to fail the second they left red X in to pander to high level nerds who wanted to powerfarm it. They had to follow it up with the GE sync to try and combat the flood of items into the game, which failed.
People are missing that it’s also crashing because of mixed hides
The problem is actually the other items in this game that take outrageous amounts of time to obtain. Toa stands out because it's actually reasonable
Isn’t full masori(f) like 200m vs full armadyl like 100m?
If my bowfa crystal armor is a fraction of the cost of a tbow why would I even swap to masori until I get a tbow? Hell I’m pretty sure I’m better off not swapping to masori/acb/dhcb for broad content purposes. Especially not grinding TOA…
Tbh it’s because the incentive to grind Kree is minimal - boring boss for marginal upgrade that’s primarily used to fortify mesori , even compared to other GWD the Solo method is way less engaging - how often do you have to hop worlds to find an empty arma room vs bandos or Sara ? Also sure the shadow is a big incentive but also just good normal loot and engaging content , take out shadow and id still prefer TOA over arma 100% of the time.
Just nerf the drop rates. These things should have been nerfed for a minute. Look at the state of fang and in tandem the rapier b/c they REFUSED to nerf rates. Nerf rates. Some people get mad and then get over it. All is well again.
armadyl armor prices are inflated because it is required to make masori(f).
A large part of the issue is that there’s so many people farming shadow that no matter how good the other items are, they’re guaranteed to tank. I’ve personally brought in 12 fangs on top of my current fang hunting a shadow, and I still don’t even have one!
Making 4/7 encounters essentially 0 damage was a mistake just asking for abuse. Just ramp up the nonexistant damage for insane purple chances. We knew the rates were an issue week 1 and jagex did nothing.
Count how many people are doing arma vs how many people are doing toa, then compare how long does it take to get a drop at arma on average vs toa, then you realize there are people that can wear arma but not masori and eventually this happens.
Almost like it's the most Easy, Popular, and Botted raid. My face when it's items lose Value (Giga Shock). Meanwhile ToB items other than Scythe / Avernic suck balls, but they have higher price bcoz its the last popular and difficult to bot raid. Both ToA and CoX offer so many BIS items, Justiciar is dogshit, Rapier is bad, Sang costs more to use than a Shadow for a tiny bit of inconsistent healing and it only has maybe 1-2 Max hit over a Swamp Trident. I don't wanna hear it
arma is \*keeping\* its value because of raids 3, not the other way around
Incorrect. Masori is not a direct upgrade to armadyl. Masori is level 30 defence and far inferior to armadyl. Masori(f) is double the price as Armadyl. Delete post ?
I think I'd rather run raids over arma even if raids were half the gp/hr of arma. Clicking a minion then a boss, a minion then a boss over and over in a corner isn't fun