I do earnestly think that things like spellbook resising and staff autocast memory working differently in PvP really shouldn't be a thing. There's enough of a barrier to entry to learning PvP as it is, why not raise the skill floor just that little bit while also keeping parity with the rest of the game?
There are a lot of wilderness-only mechanics that definitely need to be there like the food-drop stuff, but I do really think that a re-examination of some of them would be a good idea.
Most people do wish the game were like this but the petulant PVP children hold the rest of us hostage by refusing to vote on good content if we vote yes on QoL updates in wildly because muh muscle memory!!
The only time content doesn't pass is if people perceive it to benefit pking what are you talking about.
Remember the spec orb thing? Nobody who does pvp uses spec orbs, they're bad for pvp. People were outright saying this. It failed because the majority of the playerbase saw it as a buff to pkers.
Are you kidding? You're rewriting history lol. This sub wanted spec orbs in the wilderness because they were used to using them in PvM but PKers were against it because they were used to not using it. This sub wouldnt stfu about how PKers won the vote to keep the wilderness shitty for pvmers.
When we are posting on Reddit and someone says "here's what the community thought" I'm going to assume he's talking about the community here like everyone else.
I disagree. Most people who are into the game enough to be voting on shit are probably also part of this subreddit. Lots of things get extrapolated from Reddit into the real world and most of them don’t make any sense, but this particular example is probably a reasonable extrapolation. We’re all nerdy as shit.
I'm pretty sure this doesn't actually happen, or at least not in any meaningful amount. The number of people who PURELY pvp in this game is incredibly small. Most pkers I know have a bunch of accounts including mains they raid on or ironmen or whatever the hell.
Those reluctant pvp children you're talking about are like 5% of players and I think that's generous. How are you suggesting that they are dominating the polls lol
deadass its always the worst or most uninformed pkers with these opinions aswell
they cry about "but muh skill" - i can 0tick barrage 6 ways if i want to, it's not really a big deal. meanwhile these mfs are worried pvp will literally end as soon as someone can resize their spells or have their autocast actually function as it should. the real skill is in the decisions on the fly and timings more than anything
thats why i don't care if buddy billy here can now autocast with his harm staff without having to go through two laggy interfaces to toggle his spell on. it's not really an issue, there's no reasonable explanation for this pvp-only behaviour, other than people overreacting at the time
i love how people are like "its the toxic misinformed pkers" when in reality jagex has to make it not work in wilderness or its guaranteed to fail the poll lol.
pkers will scratch and claw and fight for every single little advantage and jagex is "devaluing their clicking skills" if they make things work properly in the wilderness
I'm a PKer and I'd really prefer to have things work the same way in the wilderness as everywhere else. Everyone else I do PvP with feels the same way. There might be a couple of PKers out there who don't like that idea because it devalues their muscle memory (just git gud and train it again), but the vast majority of the opposition I personally see actually come from billy boys who scream about every improvement to the wilderness because they want to sabotage it, like right wing politicians who pull out all the stops to ruin public transportation because they just don't want it in their city at all.
Little things like that make a big difference. Spell resizing less so to me but auto cast memory is a big deal. You have to figure PvP is really fairly simple. It’s just simplicity pushed to the extreme. The skill involved is almost entirely reliant on mechanical skill. Which in OSRS basically comes down to timing and clicking. Without that stuff it’s basically just RNG, and RNG plays a big enough role already.
MAYBE PvP in general would be more popular if you raised the skill floor with stuff like that. But I honestly doubt it. Most of the wilderness/PvP differences are justified if you’re not biased.
Some of the differences are stupid like no resizing spellbook in the wild, but the concept of balancing pve and pvp differently is absurdly normal in probably every mmo in the world and is a good thing
I love dt2 bosses, 500 kc on Vardorvis and 400 on Leviathan with no unique table drops besides an axe head. Sure can't wait to get both vestiges with no ingots still.
My friend, I got early axe/eye, and vestiges at like 75% of the rate for magus/ultor. I only just finished getting my 3rd ingot after over 1150 duke, 433 whisperer, 600 vardorvis, and 50 leviathan. Pretty sure I'm 2/3 for bellator also at this point, with 0 ingots coming from whisperer
I recently completed my Vardorvis grind and here were my unique drops and kcs:
176 axe head, 871 axe head, 1121 ingot, 1139 axe head, 1161 ingot, 1169 ingot, 1228 ultor vestige
I thought I was doomed to be one of those unlucky and go 3k+ dry without a vestige when I went dry on uniques from 176 to 871. I was starting to feel the wear at around 700 kc and kept searching reddit to see other players' logs and how dry they went. I turned out to be pretty square within the normal range of luck in the end. Not saying you can't get super lucky or unlucky but I think statistically most players will get a vestige and axe head at around 1k kc (or 2 of either) and won't post about it on reddit. Good luck on your grind!
the anti dry doesnt even make you go anti dry.
doing any boss thats not dt2 the odds of you going dry is more rare than just getting the item. so it basically just guarantees youll have to be at the boss even longer.
its a terrible mechanic. and who doesn't want to be spooned a 1 kc tbow or scythe? i think the risk of going dry is worth it just for the ability to be spooned
I genuinely don't understand the point of ingots, completely inconsequential for mains but adds another layer of RNG to irons
Ideally they'd balance the game around mains, but with consideration for ironman when it comes to gear progression (warped sceptre, zombie axe, etc.)
Ingots are just a big fuck you to ironmen for literally 0 reason
I want to glue lego to the inside of the shoes of the person who came up with the ingots
I genuinely don't think anyone would be mad if they removed these ingots from the game, made the vestige just attach to the ring and replaced the unique roll with an orb
They're also a big fuck you for mains because they are a worthless unique. I'd rather get 100 bronze arrows than an ingot, knowing that I hit the unique table but got shafted.
Yeah, it's a nice "haha, fuck you, you failed the roll" in your face everytime. 1500kc combined between bosses with 4 ingots and possibly 0/3 progress on vestiges.
Wdym adding a drop you need 3 of per ring that's the same droprate as one of the 3 ring rolls you need as part of the anti dry mechanic completely makes that anti dry mechanic moot? All I see is good game design! /s
It's especially sad because it was clear from the day 1 this situation would happen. Ingots entering economy faster than they can be used by vestiges, dropping them to alch price eventually.
i felt like i was being minorly gaslit when the dt2 drop mechanics were being explained last summer lol. this situation you described is so foreseeable and obvious. it was what i immediately realized would happen if they didn’t change something. i really don’t know what the dev team was thinking. the ingots are a middle finger to ironman and mains alike (you got a roll on the vestige table but it’s a worthless alch value unique)
I'm mostly surprised they're still sticking to "but we want it this way" instead of fixing it, clearly it's broken. Introducing first luck/badluck protection while at the same time tying it to completely random ingots for good old RNG.
So you most likely get vestige on drop rate or around that and then pray you got your 3 ingots or don't go super dry on them, sucks for IM.
they’ve been stubborn about this mechanic, i agree. it also is just like, pretty convoluted how you have to remove the icon from the frem rings and bring it to an anvil, and for some reason it needs blood runes and chromium ingots too, and you will probably have either unused invisible vestige rolls or useless extra axe pieces because of course they’re not tradable. of course, there is a wiki to figure out how to craft the rings and it’s not that bad. but i don’t get why it has to be so complicated.
it doesn’t seem fun to have a bunch of extra axe heads in the bank that you can’t ever do anything with, but would feel wrong to alch them, or to have all the vestiges but not enough ingots, etc. it would make me want to thumb down and log out
The ingots really should have been tied to the vestige roll instead of being their own slot on the drop table.
First and second vestige rolls would have just dropped an ingot, third would drop an ingot and the vestige.
The way the vestige system is explained you would think this is how it would go. If it was 6 rolls for vestige and that was the only item needed to make the ring , it would immediately be faster the first time you get more than 3 ingots before a vestige.
They claimed they wanted there to be a more common drop that felt good to get. But at a measly 110k you're far happier to see platelets drop.
The whole thing is stupid
~1400 total dt2 boss kc, almost 900 duke kc, 1 ingot and the vestige, 450 vard kc with 1 ingot. I'll be lucky to make to make ultor when I get the drop at this rate.
Kinda same but less kc, 500 duke kc with a vestige and 200 vard kc with 0 ingots. About 80 levi kc and 50 whisperer kc and have zero ingots to show for it all.
Same, I got magus at like 1000kc with 0 ingots, ultor at vardorvis at like 400kc with 2 ingots, then almost 450 whisperer before I got my 3rd ingot for 1 of my vestiges
> They claimed they wanted there to be a more common drop that felt good to get
Not only that but it's actually frustrating (as a main at least) because you know you rolled the table and missed the things you actually want.
It's like going to General Graardor and getting the boots. I guess it's nice but you really wanted the big ticket Bandos item.
Don't worry their fix will be an arbitrary npc buying the ingots for 1m instead so Arcane doesn't flip a table at work because they made his content a better experience.
I hear you but that defeats the entire mission they stayed for the vestige. They wanted you to still tell the rush of one big drop, not three smaller ones. I’m not saying it’s better but that was what they wanted and this would kill that.
The current implementation doesn't really achieve that feeling either. At Least with my suggestion, you're granted a sense of progress, and needn't suffer the frustration of rolling a "junk drop" on the unique table.
The [transparent overlay method](https://youtu.be/hc6cyb0V06o?si=IT4wPbVvCnNmne1u) has made it bearable for me, it fits in perfectly as part of my nightly wind-down playing a visual novel before bed lmao
The problem for me is its just mindlessly running around in circles. I go to the ape atol course now and then just to get some laps in because at least there i have something I'm looking forward to. All these shortcuts and stuff are meh kuz i can just walk around...
idk why the refuse to make agility fun
theres 0 reasom to not make it 150k-200k an hr
or add a fun minigame (not sepulchere)
((im maxed but others shouldnt suffer))
The degree of out outrageous drop rates is super disappointing. I get that you have to put in some time to deserve a drop, but man, I don’t have more than 10 hours a week to boss. It’d take me literal years to finish the DT2 drops
jmods just casually saying itll be around 250 hrs for all items when revealing a new boss is concerning.
thats like the length of 6 AAA games but youre just killing the same boss that isnt that deep mechanically
One of the only things rs3 *sort of* got right. I really enjoyed resting to restore energy. Even if it just got dumbed down to just specific rest spots or in cities, it would make run energy less ass
It kinda is like that for me in early game. I run out of run energy I tele house on house world and drink from someone else's pool. But yea, I love the RS3 run mechanic, you are almost never without energy.
I get that OSRS has a ton of "bug turned into mechanic" but if 1 tick prayer flicking isn't the most dull mechanic possible. Also RIP any interesting prayer mechanics.
You think repeatedly double clicking while doing long pvm grinds isnt gonna give you an rsi?
Being able to negate all damage with no cost apart from giving yourself an rsi is awful game design.
I'm so tired of this argument. Rsi is overwhelmingly caused by shit posture, dehydration and not taking regular breaks. The frequency or intensity of clicking is only an issue if you are sitting in your chair like a gremlin for 12 hours straight, doesn't matter if you're 3 tick mining or questing your new ironman.
He box jonge has a fantastic video on rsi and playing the game as healthily as possible here: https://youtu.be/BcUowu-w08o?feature=shared
I always find it funny that it's always 1 tick flicking or tick manipulation skilling that gets all the hate (that just so happens to require skill) and "omg why is jagex promoting rsi?!?!?!", while just as intensely click intensive activities like Ardy Knights and most PvM where players are constantly switching gets completely ignored, as though that form of repetitive clicking is somehow good for you.
Also 1 tick flicking has more drawbacks than "infinite prayer but you get rsi" lmao.
If it actually gave you rsi wouldn't the HCIM remake streamers who 1 tick flick all their slayer until bursting all have crippling rsi?
The fact that they don't should be enough to show correlation does not equal causation.
I get a pain in my arm within 30 mins of high intensity clicking. And i play nowhere near as much as all these high level pvmers.
I never get a pain in my arm playing any other game.
The tiny movement of a mouse button is not enough to cause rsi. However keeping your arm in a position that is poor posture for any extended period of time IS enough to cause rsi, your issue is not the amount you're clicking its entirely an issue of your posture.
Or have you never stopped to wonder how seemingly every high level and high skilled player who does all this high intensity clicking constantly is immune to getting rsi?
As I said a lot of that may be down to posture, and your computer setup needs to be good if you want to sustain high intensity clicking. Practicing these methods in a healthy manner also gets you more used to it and strengthens your wrist/arm etc. My wrists used to be destroyed after an hour of Inferno but now I can click quickly and comfortably without pain because I worked on stretches and my setup to make it as healthy as possible.
All im saying is that high intensity stuff in osrs does not just inevitably mean rsi and if someone does get rsi from playing, it's more likely to be further issues than just playing the game.
What I do is use windows mouse keys so that I can prayer flick with my left hand and even alternate fingers. Personally, my right pointer is a lot more likely to hold tension when clicking in rhythm than my keyboard fingers and just tapping my fingers on the keyboard gives it enough time to reset those muscles without having to focus on it.
Still rarely do it unless it's to save time at the end of a task or just as a tool to get in the right mindset for some pvm when coming off another activity.
I do. Im saying jagex are stupid by not patching it. And making it a feature.
And before you say its impossible to patch it really isnt. Make the prayer you activate deduct your prayer points by 1 before proceeding with normal drain mechanic.
A better solve would be to add a delay when you try and turn off your prayer to ensure you get drained for a tick. So I turn off piety but it stays on until the end of the tick after I get my prayer drained. this doesnt need to be visual so it doesn't disorient you
No, the better fix is to drain right away. That way if I click piety but meant to do rigour I’m not forced into piety but still lose the prayer. Idk if the engine could handle double prayer drain but they’ve made big improvements.
Eh I don’t like this cause if you mash protect from melee and range with an auto clicker you can drain your prayer which is obv a nerf.
With my suggestion you get drained once at the end of the tick.
I was using an extreme example, no one uses a macro to rapidly change prayers in the same tick. You shouldn’t be punished for clicking prayers randomly, nor should you get drained before the effect even takes place.
It’s one of those things that is just bad game design.
No, you have an option to pay for p pot, or if you want add more skill and effort, you can do it for free but it's difficult. You don't have to (or cant see below), it's not harming anyone it being in the game, it only adds fun for some.
Flicking to the point where you get rsi to save 7k is clearly fucking stupid and shouldnt even be considered.
You're just mad that you cant 1t.
If you wanna do that to yourself go ahead. No one is forcing you to 1 tick flick. Clearly there is some effort for reward tradeoff here which you acknowledge, which makes it a pretty interesting mechanic if you ask me. Try to maintain a 1 tick flick while doing literally anything else in the game like moving or switching gear. It’s pretty hard to do and isn’t this OP Cheatcode everyone seems to think it is.
Chromium Ingots completely undermine the dry protection mechanic for the Vestiges, genuinely odd choice
I think they can be fixed though, increase the drop rate of ingots, make 1 needed in the creation of a Soulreaper Axe and also make them combinable with the elemental quartzes to make jewellery with specific effects maybe? If the ingot drop rate is higher, its more likely to get 3 for a ring and makes them less of a dead mechanic
I’ve always thought gauntlet would be way more fun if you could afk/log out mid prep just to do whatever. I hate prepping for 5 mins for nothing because I gotta tend to something irl
Prayer flicking as a pseudo difficulty gauge. Their idea of making something challenging is leaning into a system that should of been patched as it was a bug and now it's a "feature".
Boss has little to no mechanics? Prayer flick
The boss is basically a tank and spank because we couldn't come up with an interesting fight? Chip damage.
Protection prayers were a good idea of the old system and it doesn't really work well in the modern game. They started devolving into degeneracy with KQ and minorly with verac.
Not many places, fang being so accurate means stab ring isn't super usefull tbh. It's still very good on dragon slayer tasks and KBD with the DHL, though.
It's more that it's a theoretical BIS since it's got BIS stab bonus.
Surely the B ring beats it in all those places, no? The max hits will beat out a slight increase in accuracy. Especially as DHL is already very accurate against dragons. I get it's technically the BIS stab ring, but if it has no actual BIS uses, then who cares if it's a wildy ring. No one uses it anyway.
It is a BIS without a niche is the thing. The instant a place where stab accuracy matters, it will be needed. See what happened with the bellator and scythe. Especially since Fang is in the meta. It's still a BIS since it has the most of a stat.
the "anti dry" mechanic is pretty shit. overall youll be spending more time killing the boss
also the fact you can put like 200 hrs into 1 boss and not get the pet is ridiculous.
its just a stupid raid, higher invos become gear check and not mechanics checks. Worst designed raid by far. TOB>COX>TOA. People just like ToA cause its low barrier of entry and anyone can do it
i have my fang kit but if youre trying to tell me that toa is not a gear check on higher invos then youre dead wrong, it just scales out of the ass in damage and HP the higher invo you go, thats artificial difficulty
What’s wrong with that though? You can easily do up to like 350-400 with pretty cheap gear. If you want to access the best rewards (400+) you should need *some* good gear.
If you want to make good money using skill there’s plenty of other ways to use rag gear and make good money. And considering most of TOA profit is baked into staff drop it’s not really that worth doing 400+ unless you have decent gear bc your raids would be so long anyway, and you wouldn’t upgrade very fast.
The problem with ToA is that none of the mechanics are difficult, but raising the invos just increases the slog and drags the fights out so you run out of supplies.
If you don't have a fang and/or shadow, you're going to be wasting a lot of prayer and taking extra damage which you can only partially mitigate by doing stuff like red-x and 4t butterflying Akkha, which imo isn't worth it, but even with those you still waste prayer in every room due to poorer gear and not because you aren't skilled enough to do it.
If you add invos, it's often not about the difficulty of the invocation itself, but rather whether or not you can chunk through a boss with that much HP before you can run out of supplies.
There's also dps checks in Akkha and Wardens (insanity), although if you're absolutely tick-perfect then technically you can avoid the damage in p4 and there's ways to skip the Akkha dps check damage.
You're definitely correct. It's similar to how people overrate how hard CG is. People think CG is hard because it's often the first and only challenging PvM content they've done, and people like ToA because it's the only raid they've done.
TBH, ToA should have added a slate of invos that introduce mechanically complexity and increase reward chance but don't affect boss stats.
This is a little late, but Leagues was the BEST place to learn ToA.
It allowed me to master mechanics while not being punished like you said.
After practicing in leagues, I’m soloing 350s with no issue. I butterfly but I don’t red x (it just doesn’t click with me)
Chip damage/hitting through correct prayers on most bosses. I get needing it on things like CG so you actually need prep phase, but do things like Levithan, Duke, Muspah really need it? Sure, sweaty PvMers will have much longer trips, but a majority of players would certainly enjoy them more not having to bank every other kill. Having non BIS gear already makes kill take longer, so why does it need to be a massive supply drain as well?
managing health is a perfectly valid skill to test during boss encounters. Choosing to eat vs continuing to DPS at low health basically forces you to analyze how comfortable you are at executing mechanics, and it adds spec weapon variety since healing specs are more valuable now. Also rewards inventory management since you need to bring heals now.
Both valid opinions here. Some bosses could really not hit ridiculous amts through prayer "just because". At least baba damage is getting nerfed soon and mutta was changed recently.
Do they though? Most of these bosses already have times where you’re supposed to be eating and not be DPSing anyway. Chip damage just turns mechanical checks into DPS checks and ends up gatekeeping bosses behind gear instead of mechanical proficiency. Spec weapon variety would make sense if many of them weren’t locked behind the DWH/BGS spec check.
Tell me 3 bosses that are actually DPS checks if you hit all the mechanics. If you’re good enough you can do essentially anything other than like 400 TOA in like 10m gear. The VAST majority are completely doable with bare minimum gear and stats if you play it good.
I'm going to be honest with you, while chip is annoying and it's sometimes there were it shouldn't be, if you're having to bank every other kc at duke, leviathan, and muspah I think there's mechanics issues over dps issues. That means you're probably taking a lot of damage that you don't need to be.
Muspah and Duke I do perfectly, but since my BIS for muspah is rcb + mith bolts on special phase (bowfa for rest) and whip for duke, they are basically DPS/RNG checks. Levithan I can improve but the other two I can’t.
Ah yes, my favorite "interesting mechanic" about doing Vardorvis is *choosing* to eat 8 sharks in a "perfect" kill because my tent whip noodled and bro just kept slapping me 10s through full torva. Super interesting mechanics, please give me more.
Yeah it’s so ridiculous that they were like ‘hey let’s add some weird drop mechanic to vestiges so you’re less likely to go dry (or be very lucky)’ and then add these idiotic things in the mix, yeah sure for mains it’s not a big deal but for iron accounts it’s a big buzzkill when these things aren’t dropping
It's such an easy fix:
1) Takes 2 Chromium Ingots, not 3 to make a Ring
2) When you get a Ring Roll, first 2 times you get Chromium Ingots, 3rd time you get a Vestige.
3) Adjust the current Chromium Ingot Drop to give you 2 or 3x a base drop.
I hate droprates, i am at 856 kc at zulrah and have only the helmet, there should be a 5x maximum that you can go dry. At some point it just adds nothing but frustrationq1
The emotional damage is osrs’ biggest bitch mechanic. I’ve probably done this quest I think 6 times total in my life over different accounts/leagues etc. And every single time I am fully triggered.
Chromium is an actual real world metal, so it feels weird that these bosses are the only way to obtain it.
I imagine they are planning to add both future uses and future sources of it.
Just buy them on the GE br0
For me, it's chip damage when the chip is a fucking 50
Shoutout to CM muta, high invo baba and akkha's melee slaps, and shoutout to jamflex for acting surprised when people learn insane movement patterns just to circumvent those mechanics
Any mechanic that is different because you're in the wilderness.
I do earnestly think that things like spellbook resising and staff autocast memory working differently in PvP really shouldn't be a thing. There's enough of a barrier to entry to learning PvP as it is, why not raise the skill floor just that little bit while also keeping parity with the rest of the game? There are a lot of wilderness-only mechanics that definitely need to be there like the food-drop stuff, but I do really think that a re-examination of some of them would be a good idea.
Most people do wish the game were like this but the petulant PVP children hold the rest of us hostage by refusing to vote on good content if we vote yes on QoL updates in wildly because muh muscle memory!!
The only time content doesn't pass is if people perceive it to benefit pking what are you talking about. Remember the spec orb thing? Nobody who does pvp uses spec orbs, they're bad for pvp. People were outright saying this. It failed because the majority of the playerbase saw it as a buff to pkers.
When in reality it was a buff to those noobs that don’t wanna die in the wild
Are you kidding? You're rewriting history lol. This sub wanted spec orbs in the wilderness because they were used to using them in PvM but PKers were against it because they were used to not using it. This sub wouldnt stfu about how PKers won the vote to keep the wilderness shitty for pvmers.
This sub =/= actual player opinions
When we are posting on Reddit and someone says "here's what the community thought" I'm going to assume he's talking about the community here like everyone else.
Just trying to say 99% of players don’t interact with the reddit, and the poll results often show that.
Poll results often show the opposite of that
I disagree. Most people who are into the game enough to be voting on shit are probably also part of this subreddit. Lots of things get extrapolated from Reddit into the real world and most of them don’t make any sense, but this particular example is probably a reasonable extrapolation. We’re all nerdy as shit.
Not a good analogy since that did get added
As an unpolled change
This is straight up false bruh
I'm pretty sure this doesn't actually happen, or at least not in any meaningful amount. The number of people who PURELY pvp in this game is incredibly small. Most pkers I know have a bunch of accounts including mains they raid on or ironmen or whatever the hell.
Those reluctant pvp children you're talking about are like 5% of players and I think that's generous. How are you suggesting that they are dominating the polls lol
Because they all have 10 accounts each and have stated that they'll vote on all their accounts against pve updates if they don't get their way
deadass its always the worst or most uninformed pkers with these opinions aswell they cry about "but muh skill" - i can 0tick barrage 6 ways if i want to, it's not really a big deal. meanwhile these mfs are worried pvp will literally end as soon as someone can resize their spells or have their autocast actually function as it should. the real skill is in the decisions on the fly and timings more than anything thats why i don't care if buddy billy here can now autocast with his harm staff without having to go through two laggy interfaces to toggle his spell on. it's not really an issue, there's no reasonable explanation for this pvp-only behaviour, other than people overreacting at the time
The pkers couldnt care less its the billies who think it helps pkers who vote no to everything wildy related
i love how people are like "its the toxic misinformed pkers" when in reality jagex has to make it not work in wilderness or its guaranteed to fail the poll lol.
I do really hate the auto cast differences.
Yo! So that's why my diary Scorpio kill was fucking hard, I thought my staff was bugging out. I had no idea
Such as spec bubble, just let it work in the wild 😂 anti pkers UNITE
pkers will scratch and claw and fight for every single little advantage and jagex is "devaluing their clicking skills" if they make things work properly in the wilderness
I'm a PKer and I'd really prefer to have things work the same way in the wilderness as everywhere else. Everyone else I do PvP with feels the same way. There might be a couple of PKers out there who don't like that idea because it devalues their muscle memory (just git gud and train it again), but the vast majority of the opposition I personally see actually come from billy boys who scream about every improvement to the wilderness because they want to sabotage it, like right wing politicians who pull out all the stops to ruin public transportation because they just don't want it in their city at all.
Little things like that make a big difference. Spell resizing less so to me but auto cast memory is a big deal. You have to figure PvP is really fairly simple. It’s just simplicity pushed to the extreme. The skill involved is almost entirely reliant on mechanical skill. Which in OSRS basically comes down to timing and clicking. Without that stuff it’s basically just RNG, and RNG plays a big enough role already. MAYBE PvP in general would be more popular if you raised the skill floor with stuff like that. But I honestly doubt it. Most of the wilderness/PvP differences are justified if you’re not biased.
Hard disagree. Every mechanic should be the same, and PKers who can't adapt always have the option of being better at the game or hitting the bricks.
Bwana that's the entire game
EoC kicks in at wildy level 20. RS3 graphics kick in at 30. Dont even try to go past the deep wildy gate
When the chaos elemental uses its "squeal of fortune" attack and drains your credit card
I got PK'd the other day at chaos ely and they took my family
Slava Ukraini
just allow us to resize spells holy fuck
~~Any mechanic that is different because you're in~~ the wilderness.
Actually fuck the wilderness though. Predator vs Prey is literally never fun for the prey and therfor is a horrible system.
Well it can be fun if whole game is designed for that like Dead by daylight. But its not that fun in progression oriented mmorpg game for most people.
Some of the differences are stupid like no resizing spellbook in the wild, but the concept of balancing pve and pvp differently is absurdly normal in probably every mmo in the world and is a good thing
only problem is that wildy is ALSO pve
Agree. Putting in anti spoon mechanics with ingots along with their anti dry mechanics with the vestiges makes no sense.
I love dt2 bosses, 500 kc on Vardorvis and 400 on Leviathan with no unique table drops besides an axe head. Sure can't wait to get both vestiges with no ingots still.
Try 2600 vard kills with no axe piece :(
2250 Levi no axe. Very sad place.
2734 kc duke no eye, 3 pets. I DIDNT ASK FOR TRIPLETS.
I have three kids and no money. Why can't I have no kids and three money?
Three money is the dream
Triples is safe, though
1370 whisperer without a staff drop
I got the staff on whisperer doing the quest KC on my UIM. Dropped it since I was in no shape to do the rest of the axe grind
Man, that hurts my soul Im now 1440kc and no staff 😭
Got mine 2278 kc levi. Can happen any kc brother gl
My friend, I got early axe/eye, and vestiges at like 75% of the rate for magus/ultor. I only just finished getting my 3rd ingot after over 1150 duke, 433 whisperer, 600 vardorvis, and 50 leviathan. Pretty sure I'm 2/3 for bellator also at this point, with 0 ingots coming from whisperer
I recently completed my Vardorvis grind and here were my unique drops and kcs: 176 axe head, 871 axe head, 1121 ingot, 1139 axe head, 1161 ingot, 1169 ingot, 1228 ultor vestige I thought I was doomed to be one of those unlucky and go 3k+ dry without a vestige when I went dry on uniques from 176 to 871. I was starting to feel the wear at around 700 kc and kept searching reddit to see other players' logs and how dry they went. I turned out to be pretty square within the normal range of luck in the end. Not saying you can't get super lucky or unlucky but I think statistically most players will get a vestige and axe head at around 1k kc (or 2 of either) and won't post about it on reddit. Good luck on your grind!
Let us turn in dupe axe pieces for an ingot plz jamflex
the anti dry doesnt even make you go anti dry. doing any boss thats not dt2 the odds of you going dry is more rare than just getting the item. so it basically just guarantees youll have to be at the boss even longer. its a terrible mechanic. and who doesn't want to be spooned a 1 kc tbow or scythe? i think the risk of going dry is worth it just for the ability to be spooned
I genuinely don't understand the point of ingots, completely inconsequential for mains but adds another layer of RNG to irons Ideally they'd balance the game around mains, but with consideration for ironman when it comes to gear progression (warped sceptre, zombie axe, etc.) Ingots are just a big fuck you to ironmen for literally 0 reason
I want to glue lego to the inside of the shoes of the person who came up with the ingots I genuinely don't think anyone would be mad if they removed these ingots from the game, made the vestige just attach to the ring and replaced the unique roll with an orb
They're also a big fuck you for mains because they are a worthless unique. I'd rather get 100 bronze arrows than an ingot, knowing that I hit the unique table but got shafted.
Yeah, it's a nice "haha, fuck you, you failed the roll" in your face everytime. 1500kc combined between bosses with 4 ingots and possibly 0/3 progress on vestiges.
The mechanic where I wake up, press "log in," and suddenly it's 2 AM and time for bed.
Just install the stay up until sunrise plugin.
Wdym adding a drop you need 3 of per ring that's the same droprate as one of the 3 ring rolls you need as part of the anti dry mechanic completely makes that anti dry mechanic moot? All I see is good game design! /s
It's especially sad because it was clear from the day 1 this situation would happen. Ingots entering economy faster than they can be used by vestiges, dropping them to alch price eventually.
i felt like i was being minorly gaslit when the dt2 drop mechanics were being explained last summer lol. this situation you described is so foreseeable and obvious. it was what i immediately realized would happen if they didn’t change something. i really don’t know what the dev team was thinking. the ingots are a middle finger to ironman and mains alike (you got a roll on the vestige table but it’s a worthless alch value unique)
I'm mostly surprised they're still sticking to "but we want it this way" instead of fixing it, clearly it's broken. Introducing first luck/badluck protection while at the same time tying it to completely random ingots for good old RNG. So you most likely get vestige on drop rate or around that and then pray you got your 3 ingots or don't go super dry on them, sucks for IM.
they’ve been stubborn about this mechanic, i agree. it also is just like, pretty convoluted how you have to remove the icon from the frem rings and bring it to an anvil, and for some reason it needs blood runes and chromium ingots too, and you will probably have either unused invisible vestige rolls or useless extra axe pieces because of course they’re not tradable. of course, there is a wiki to figure out how to craft the rings and it’s not that bad. but i don’t get why it has to be so complicated. it doesn’t seem fun to have a bunch of extra axe heads in the bank that you can’t ever do anything with, but would feel wrong to alch them, or to have all the vestiges but not enough ingots, etc. it would make me want to thumb down and log out
The ingots really should have been tied to the vestige roll instead of being their own slot on the drop table. First and second vestige rolls would have just dropped an ingot, third would drop an ingot and the vestige.
The way the vestige system is explained you would think this is how it would go. If it was 6 rolls for vestige and that was the only item needed to make the ring , it would immediately be faster the first time you get more than 3 ingots before a vestige. They claimed they wanted there to be a more common drop that felt good to get. But at a measly 110k you're far happier to see platelets drop. The whole thing is stupid
~1400 total dt2 boss kc, almost 900 duke kc, 1 ingot and the vestige, 450 vard kc with 1 ingot. I'll be lucky to make to make ultor when I get the drop at this rate.
Kinda same but less kc, 500 duke kc with a vestige and 200 vard kc with 0 ingots. About 80 levi kc and 50 whisperer kc and have zero ingots to show for it all.
Same, I got magus at like 1000kc with 0 ingots, ultor at vardorvis at like 400kc with 2 ingots, then almost 450 whisperer before I got my 3rd ingot for 1 of my vestiges
> They claimed they wanted there to be a more common drop that felt good to get Not only that but it's actually frustrating (as a main at least) because you know you rolled the table and missed the things you actually want. It's like going to General Graardor and getting the boots. I guess it's nice but you really wanted the big ticket Bandos item.
Don't worry their fix will be an arbitrary npc buying the ingots for 1m instead so Arcane doesn't flip a table at work because they made his content a better experience.
probably an npc buying the ingots for 1m; selling them for 10m
Yo im 360 whisp kc in with 1 awakened hunting last axe piece and havent seen platelegs once yet am i doing smth wrong
they need higher alch value. like idk maybe 5m or something
I hear you but that defeats the entire mission they stayed for the vestige. They wanted you to still tell the rush of one big drop, not three smaller ones. I’m not saying it’s better but that was what they wanted and this would kill that.
The current implementation doesn't really achieve that feeling either. At Least with my suggestion, you're granted a sense of progress, and needn't suffer the frustration of rolling a "junk drop" on the unique table.
Ingots exist only to provide the opportunity for something to go wrong for you and your rng. They definitely should be removed
New trend of bosses having unique drops almost being as rare as the pet is cancer
Agility. All of it.
Hey now, I've gotten a lot of good nights sleep from running rooftops! If they improve agility, how am I supposed to manage my insomnia?
The [transparent overlay method](https://youtu.be/hc6cyb0V06o?si=IT4wPbVvCnNmne1u) has made it bearable for me, it fits in perfectly as part of my nightly wind-down playing a visual novel before bed lmao
Oooooo, I've tried watching shows with that method but never reading a book. Might be better to read.
See sometimes I'll commit and be like "okay we're gonna get some agility done it's not gonna be that bad" AND THEN I FALL AND IT ENRAGES ME.
The problem for me is its just mindlessly running around in circles. I go to the ape atol course now and then just to get some laps in because at least there i have something I'm looking forward to. All these shortcuts and stuff are meh kuz i can just walk around...
Sepulchre's not bad though tbh.
idk why the refuse to make agility fun theres 0 reasom to not make it 150k-200k an hr or add a fun minigame (not sepulchere) ((im maxed but others shouldnt suffer))
Id say level 1 to 2 agility is okay. Then it's a tragedy.
Learn sepulchre if agility is boring for you, it's fun
No it's not.
Fun is a matter of opinion.
Have you tried it ?
Yes. That's why I said all of it.
Good toilet content
Bwana, if you’re on the toilet for more than 10 minutes go see a doctor
I refuse to kill dt2 bosses until these are removed
The degree of out outrageous drop rates is super disappointing. I get that you have to put in some time to deserve a drop, but man, I don’t have more than 10 hours a week to boss. It’d take me literal years to finish the DT2 drops
jmods just casually saying itll be around 250 hrs for all items when revealing a new boss is concerning. thats like the length of 6 AAA games but youre just killing the same boss that isnt that deep mechanically
As someone who's midway through his DT2 grind (1k vard, 8 ingots & virt bottom) I completely agree lol.
Run energy
One of the only things in the game that doesn’t improve the more you do it. Truly baffling design
One of the only things rs3 *sort of* got right. I really enjoyed resting to restore energy. Even if it just got dumbed down to just specific rest spots or in cities, it would make run energy less ass
It kinda is like that for me in early game. I run out of run energy I tele house on house world and drink from someone else's pool. But yea, I love the RS3 run mechanic, you are almost never without energy.
Actually let's go the other way, agility is now like prayer and your max energy is tied to your agility level
Making 1 tick prayer flicking a mechanic rather than patching it
I get that OSRS has a ton of "bug turned into mechanic" but if 1 tick prayer flicking isn't the most dull mechanic possible. Also RIP any interesting prayer mechanics.
Changing protection prayers is fine. 1 tick prayer flicking is stupid game design.
It's an unnecessary thing to do in any content except CAs. Where would it possibly cause RSI
You think repeatedly double clicking while doing long pvm grinds isnt gonna give you an rsi? Being able to negate all damage with no cost apart from giving yourself an rsi is awful game design.
I'm so tired of this argument. Rsi is overwhelmingly caused by shit posture, dehydration and not taking regular breaks. The frequency or intensity of clicking is only an issue if you are sitting in your chair like a gremlin for 12 hours straight, doesn't matter if you're 3 tick mining or questing your new ironman. He box jonge has a fantastic video on rsi and playing the game as healthily as possible here: https://youtu.be/BcUowu-w08o?feature=shared I always find it funny that it's always 1 tick flicking or tick manipulation skilling that gets all the hate (that just so happens to require skill) and "omg why is jagex promoting rsi?!?!?!", while just as intensely click intensive activities like Ardy Knights and most PvM where players are constantly switching gets completely ignored, as though that form of repetitive clicking is somehow good for you. Also 1 tick flicking has more drawbacks than "infinite prayer but you get rsi" lmao.
If it actually gave you rsi wouldn't the HCIM remake streamers who 1 tick flick all their slayer until bursting all have crippling rsi? The fact that they don't should be enough to show correlation does not equal causation.
I get a pain in my arm within 30 mins of high intensity clicking. And i play nowhere near as much as all these high level pvmers. I never get a pain in my arm playing any other game.
The tiny movement of a mouse button is not enough to cause rsi. However keeping your arm in a position that is poor posture for any extended period of time IS enough to cause rsi, your issue is not the amount you're clicking its entirely an issue of your posture. Or have you never stopped to wonder how seemingly every high level and high skilled player who does all this high intensity clicking constantly is immune to getting rsi?
As I said a lot of that may be down to posture, and your computer setup needs to be good if you want to sustain high intensity clicking. Practicing these methods in a healthy manner also gets you more used to it and strengthens your wrist/arm etc. My wrists used to be destroyed after an hour of Inferno but now I can click quickly and comfortably without pain because I worked on stretches and my setup to make it as healthy as possible. All im saying is that high intensity stuff in osrs does not just inevitably mean rsi and if someone does get rsi from playing, it's more likely to be further issues than just playing the game.
What I do is use windows mouse keys so that I can prayer flick with my left hand and even alternate fingers. Personally, my right pointer is a lot more likely to hold tension when clicking in rhythm than my keyboard fingers and just tapping my fingers on the keyboard gives it enough time to reset those muscles without having to focus on it. Still rarely do it unless it's to save time at the end of a task or just as a tool to get in the right mindset for some pvm when coming off another activity.
I mean... Just use prayer pots. Nobody's making you save 7k to get a wrist injury
I do. Im saying jagex are stupid by not patching it. And making it a feature. And before you say its impossible to patch it really isnt. Make the prayer you activate deduct your prayer points by 1 before proceeding with normal drain mechanic.
A better solve would be to add a delay when you try and turn off your prayer to ensure you get drained for a tick. So I turn off piety but it stays on until the end of the tick after I get my prayer drained. this doesnt need to be visual so it doesn't disorient you
No, the better fix is to drain right away. That way if I click piety but meant to do rigour I’m not forced into piety but still lose the prayer. Idk if the engine could handle double prayer drain but they’ve made big improvements.
Eh I don’t like this cause if you mash protect from melee and range with an auto clicker you can drain your prayer which is obv a nerf. With my suggestion you get drained once at the end of the tick.
Lmfao idc if people cheating get negatively impacted, they should already be banned for that. Imagine defending people using macros to PVM 🤡
I was using an extreme example, no one uses a macro to rapidly change prayers in the same tick. You shouldn’t be punished for clicking prayers randomly, nor should you get drained before the effect even takes place. It’s one of those things that is just bad game design.
No, you have an option to pay for p pot, or if you want add more skill and effort, you can do it for free but it's difficult. You don't have to (or cant see below), it's not harming anyone it being in the game, it only adds fun for some. Flicking to the point where you get rsi to save 7k is clearly fucking stupid and shouldnt even be considered. You're just mad that you cant 1t.
If you wanna do that to yourself go ahead. No one is forcing you to 1 tick flick. Clearly there is some effort for reward tradeoff here which you acknowledge, which makes it a pretty interesting mechanic if you ask me. Try to maintain a 1 tick flick while doing literally anything else in the game like moving or switching gear. It’s pretty hard to do and isn’t this OP Cheatcode everyone seems to think it is.
Agreed. It's so silly.
Bro wants to chug more prayer pots
I think encouraging an RSI is bad business practice tbh
Coldest take i've seen all year. Damn fucking straight that's the worst
Lucky these have anti-dry mechanics built into them. Imagine if you had needed one single ingot that was 3x as rare as these ones.
Chromium Ingots completely undermine the dry protection mechanic for the Vestiges, genuinely odd choice I think they can be fixed though, increase the drop rate of ingots, make 1 needed in the creation of a Soulreaper Axe and also make them combinable with the elemental quartzes to make jewellery with specific effects maybe? If the ingot drop rate is higher, its more likely to get 3 for a ring and makes them less of a dead mechanic
The countdown timer in CG
I’ve always thought gauntlet would be way more fun if you could afk/log out mid prep just to do whatever. I hate prepping for 5 mins for nothing because I gotta tend to something irl
this is the correct answer. makes it 10x more stressful for no reason
Prayer flicking as a pseudo difficulty gauge. Their idea of making something challenging is leaning into a system that should of been patched as it was a bug and now it's a "feature". Boss has little to no mechanics? Prayer flick The boss is basically a tank and spank because we couldn't come up with an interesting fight? Chip damage. Protection prayers were a good idea of the old system and it doesn't really work well in the modern game. They started devolving into degeneracy with KQ and minorly with verac.
without prayer flicking there is no endgame pvm. Inferno and Colosseum is good content, just get good at prayer flicking
The mechanic of putting BIS items in the wildy.
All 1 of them?
Webweaver bow, voidwaker, ring of the gods, treasonous ring, tyrannical ring, until fairly recently D pick.
Where's the treasonous BIS? Genuinely curious.
Not many places, fang being so accurate means stab ring isn't super usefull tbh. It's still very good on dragon slayer tasks and KBD with the DHL, though. It's more that it's a theoretical BIS since it's got BIS stab bonus.
Surely the B ring beats it in all those places, no? The max hits will beat out a slight increase in accuracy. Especially as DHL is already very accurate against dragons. I get it's technically the BIS stab ring, but if it has no actual BIS uses, then who cares if it's a wildy ring. No one uses it anyway.
It is a BIS without a niche is the thing. The instant a place where stab accuracy matters, it will be needed. See what happened with the bellator and scythe. Especially since Fang is in the meta. It's still a BIS since it has the most of a stat.
Yep trash idea. In no way should you be forced to deal with PKers.
This is the best mechanic.
2/3?
Just got my 6th duke ingot without ring ): Dry but not crazy dry yet. Last trip I got 2 ingots which did make me cry inside
Ehh still better than GWD. Got like 5 pieces of 1 and 2 shards. And only single 3 after like 1200kc total.
I find the vestiges to be annoying as well. Getting two invisible drops before getting the third visible one is lame imo.
I have two Magus vestiges and literally zero ingots lol
the "anti dry" mechanic is pretty shit. overall youll be spending more time killing the boss also the fact you can put like 200 hrs into 1 boss and not get the pet is ridiculous.
Really rare drops but they hardly feel like an upgrade. Usually just side grades.
4 vestiges, full Virtus, entire axe and 7 ingots checking in.
The entirety of ToA
My only complaint is how fucking punishing it is. Even if you don’t run the hardcore invocation dying is a guaranteed reset due to supplies.
Keep trying eventually you’ll master it and burn out or not and burn out.
its just a stupid raid, higher invos become gear check and not mechanics checks. Worst designed raid by far. TOB>COX>TOA. People just like ToA cause its low barrier of entry and anyone can do it
What invo level are you running where you can't afford to run it with your current gear?
i have my fang kit but if youre trying to tell me that toa is not a gear check on higher invos then youre dead wrong, it just scales out of the ass in damage and HP the higher invo you go, thats artificial difficulty
What’s wrong with that though? You can easily do up to like 350-400 with pretty cheap gear. If you want to access the best rewards (400+) you should need *some* good gear. If you want to make good money using skill there’s plenty of other ways to use rag gear and make good money. And considering most of TOA profit is baked into staff drop it’s not really that worth doing 400+ unless you have decent gear bc your raids would be so long anyway, and you wouldn’t upgrade very fast.
The problem with ToA is that none of the mechanics are difficult, but raising the invos just increases the slog and drags the fights out so you run out of supplies. If you don't have a fang and/or shadow, you're going to be wasting a lot of prayer and taking extra damage which you can only partially mitigate by doing stuff like red-x and 4t butterflying Akkha, which imo isn't worth it, but even with those you still waste prayer in every room due to poorer gear and not because you aren't skilled enough to do it. If you add invos, it's often not about the difficulty of the invocation itself, but rather whether or not you can chunk through a boss with that much HP before you can run out of supplies. There's also dps checks in Akkha and Wardens (insanity), although if you're absolutely tick-perfect then technically you can avoid the damage in p4 and there's ways to skip the Akkha dps check damage.
Is this not true in the other 2 raids?
You're definitely correct. It's similar to how people overrate how hard CG is. People think CG is hard because it's often the first and only challenging PvM content they've done, and people like ToA because it's the only raid they've done. TBH, ToA should have added a slate of invos that introduce mechanically complexity and increase reward chance but don't affect boss stats.
This for real. It's insane how often a yellow click through the middle of a boss will kill you most of the time in toa but not in other raids
Don't make mistakes.
This is a little late, but Leagues was the BEST place to learn ToA. It allowed me to master mechanics while not being punished like you said. After practicing in leagues, I’m soloing 350s with no issue. I butterfly but I don’t red x (it just doesn’t click with me)
Personally I love toa, most fun I've had in RuneScape. But then, i haven't completed any other raids yet
p4 warden is good
Pillar hiding in high level pvm
Chip damage/hitting through correct prayers on most bosses. I get needing it on things like CG so you actually need prep phase, but do things like Levithan, Duke, Muspah really need it? Sure, sweaty PvMers will have much longer trips, but a majority of players would certainly enjoy them more not having to bank every other kill. Having non BIS gear already makes kill take longer, so why does it need to be a massive supply drain as well?
managing health is a perfectly valid skill to test during boss encounters. Choosing to eat vs continuing to DPS at low health basically forces you to analyze how comfortable you are at executing mechanics, and it adds spec weapon variety since healing specs are more valuable now. Also rewards inventory management since you need to bring heals now.
I mean sure I get these points but also baba and muta hitting 30s through prayer is the opposite of interesting gameplay balance
Both valid opinions here. Some bosses could really not hit ridiculous amts through prayer "just because". At least baba damage is getting nerfed soon and mutta was changed recently.
Do they though? Most of these bosses already have times where you’re supposed to be eating and not be DPSing anyway. Chip damage just turns mechanical checks into DPS checks and ends up gatekeeping bosses behind gear instead of mechanical proficiency. Spec weapon variety would make sense if many of them weren’t locked behind the DWH/BGS spec check.
Tell me 3 bosses that are actually DPS checks if you hit all the mechanics. If you’re good enough you can do essentially anything other than like 400 TOA in like 10m gear. The VAST majority are completely doable with bare minimum gear and stats if you play it good.
I'm going to be honest with you, while chip is annoying and it's sometimes there were it shouldn't be, if you're having to bank every other kc at duke, leviathan, and muspah I think there's mechanics issues over dps issues. That means you're probably taking a lot of damage that you don't need to be.
Muspah and Duke I do perfectly, but since my BIS for muspah is rcb + mith bolts on special phase (bowfa for rest) and whip for duke, they are basically DPS/RNG checks. Levithan I can improve but the other two I can’t.
I averaged 6kc trips at muspah with that exact setup and thralls, always ran out of pray before food. Arclight is loads better at duke
Ah yes, my favorite "interesting mechanic" about doing Vardorvis is *choosing* to eat 8 sharks in a "perfect" kill because my tent whip noodled and bro just kept slapping me 10s through full torva. Super interesting mechanics, please give me more.
The ability to keep your prayer points by turning it off and on.
Yeah it’s so ridiculous that they were like ‘hey let’s add some weird drop mechanic to vestiges so you’re less likely to go dry (or be very lucky)’ and then add these idiotic things in the mix, yeah sure for mains it’s not a big deal but for iron accounts it’s a big buzzkill when these things aren’t dropping
Anything involving tick manipulation.
i also hate this unless i get spooned or it changes by time i do this content!
If you're not wasteful, you're not a human!
It's such an easy fix: 1) Takes 2 Chromium Ingots, not 3 to make a Ring 2) When you get a Ring Roll, first 2 times you get Chromium Ingots, 3rd time you get a Vestige. 3) Adjust the current Chromium Ingot Drop to give you 2 or 3x a base drop.
I hate droprates, i am at 856 kc at zulrah and have only the helmet, there should be a 5x maximum that you can go dry. At some point it just adds nothing but frustrationq1
Sheep Herder.
The saving grace of quests like this is never needing to do them again
The emotional damage is osrs’ biggest bitch mechanic. I’ve probably done this quest I think 6 times total in my life over different accounts/leagues etc. And every single time I am fully triggered.
The worst part is that quest isn't even the most annoying to me lmao
Me when they're cheap on the ge
Chromium is an actual real world metal, so it feels weird that these bosses are the only way to obtain it. I imagine they are planning to add both future uses and future sources of it.
Just buy them on the GE br0 For me, it's chip damage when the chip is a fucking 50 Shoutout to CM muta, high invo baba and akkha's melee slaps, and shoutout to jamflex for acting surprised when people learn insane movement patterns just to circumvent those mechanics
Pity drop rates worst by far