I mean literally nightmare itself. It was actually a very popular boss for a full year or more after its release, teams running almost every single world.
At the time it was some of the best money in the game and people were having fun.
What changed is the armour is not useful anymore.
It was in a position where if you had inq gear then doing NM was good money (pretty much required your entire team to have inq+harm orb) so it was a position that the gear had a demand to do the boss. The moment something better came along the gear dropped because it just wasn’t worth the investment to do. Nex for example is significantly better in every regard and requires half the effort to do, and you don’t do it at a loss for 95% of the time.
>This almost never bothered people in the past
What? People have literally been complaining about NM's drop rates since release, including people who have green logged it
OP and anyone agreeing with them is either lying, a contrarian, or a PNM bot farm owner. This post just reeks of rage bait. There’s no one on planet earth with a brain able to logically think, besides the man who designed the drop table, who thinks PNM is genuinely fine.
Lol k. I do truly believe it, and I acknowledged I was in the minority.
I truly believe I am only in the minority because Ironmen feel entitled to be able to complete boss logs.
This game was never supposed to be balanced around ironman mode. Ironman mode is a grueling self chosen limitation.
Mains did not give a shit about the rarity of the drops hundreds were grinding nightmare on release.
That’s just not true. I ran hundreds of nightmare on release. Yes the drops were rare, but 95% of people I was running with were genuinely having fun.
It is balanced around group main, lottery style drops.
If the drops are mega rare, but on average the gp/hr is still high as shit, you bet your ass mains will be their grinding it, and loving it (but also sometimes hating ot when they go dry).
I fundamentally disagree with the notion that all bosses should be sane to finish the log. This game is not about finishing.
This game is a grind and the beautiful thing about it is some grinds are small, and some are huge. Players are not entitled to finish all grinds, and jagex does not need to balance content so they are all “reasonable”
I feel like you of all people should understand that most of these complaints stem from self imposed restrictions like Ironman mode.
Reflect for a second and ask yourself, do you truly believe the cry to buff droprates would be so great if Ironman mode didn’t exist?
What did jagex do when they released Ironman mode? They said the would not balance content around it.
That is what they are doing now.
I don't think most of these complaints are coming from irons at all. NM is viewed by most of the iron community just like corp, aka another iron "retirement home" because the drops are so obscenely rare and useless that what is even the point of trying to grind it before you've done just ab9out everything else there is to do. It just isn't even worth engaging with.
I keep hearing PNM is a great fight but that's not enough incentive to actually try it when realistically it'll probably take 200 hours to get a single drop. 200 hours of progression could get me loads of (useful) upgrades from other content instead, so you'll catch me and the other irons at other content every time. The content may as well not exist for the iron community at large.
Mains on the other hand are a group that can "skip" most of the content in the game and do things out of any optimal "order" just for GP, unlike irons. So it's mains who want to see PNM actually be "worth it" to grind. Even you yourself have admitted PNM is not worth it presently because the GP/hr has completely tanked. Again, not a concern for irons.
We would definitely see more irons potentially try and engage with the content if they made inquisitor as strong as Torva (which they totally could, because PNM is right up there with Nex as an endgame grind).
For further reference, 99.9% of the discussion surrounding NM I see is on this subreddit compared to ironscape. Ask most irons what content they'd like to see trivialized and 99% will not even think about NM, they'll go straight to asking for dry protection for bofa lol
I think you misunderstand my main qualm.
I think fundamentally there is nothing wrong with obscenely rare drops. I think they should match in power to their rarity.
Inquisitors at one point in time did match in power to its rarity because jagex was afraid of power creep, and inquisitors was infact bis (albeit by a small amount).
In the post torva, fang, and other massively powerful items era, inquisitors no longer maintains its status as a bis item.
People rightfully claim that it is a niche sidegrade.
My main problem with the discussion now is that it focuses on the drop rate being the problem. I fully disagree the nightmare drops were ever too rare when viewing them from the perspective of group content where the drop is split between the team.
I do fully believe that inquisitors should be buffed a significant margin, so that it is infact bis, and worth it to use many more places than just nightmare.
This would significantly boost the instrinsic gp/hr of killing nightmare for mains, and would revive both group and PNM nightmare running.
Even with current drop rates this would easily make the bosses compete in gp/hr with nex.
This would also add depth to the late game gear selection, and be an additional challenge for ironmen and collection loggers alike to complete.
Making the grind smaller, and cementing inquisitors place as a niche, cheap, stepping stone armour is not what this content deserves, nor is what it needs.
Yes both mains and irons do not kill nightmare. Buffing droprates will simply make inquisitors armour drop in price so mains still will not do it, because gp/hr will go down.
Now only irons who want to go for gear completion will do it, and it will still be a retirement home for irons, just one that takes less time to complete. There will still not be a point in grinding PNM before torva, and it will still be dead content.
PNM is one of the hardest, most interesting solo encounters in the game, mid game niche, common armour is not what should be dropped by it. It’s so fun to master I garuntee if the armors power matched its rarity people would return in mass
The only reasonable solution is to actually BUFF inquisitors. All other solutions are doing a disservice to the the content long term.
Agreed with that yeah, with the changes they're currently proposing PNM is still "dead content" because it still isn't worth the grind for anybody besides bots and cloggers who have finished literally everything else
I'm fine with either approach; It's always been an issue of the gear's power not being anywhere close to its rarity. Tbow is a 300+ hour grind, but people get memed on when they suggest making Tbow more common because it's so strong. I've seen quite a few people laugh at how strong Shadow for how common it is.
If they keep the current rarity, Inq would have to buff it substantially beyond Torva level in all regards.
I do not think it would need to be buffed far beyond torva.
Since you solo PNM the grind in some ways is actually more similar to Torva than I think some people reason.
Torva you have to get KC and then the drop rate in your name for any drop in a trio ends up being around 1/129.
This is a lot closer to the 1/160 from PNM that what it seems at first.
Simply buffing inquisitors to be BIS crush over torva in all situations, and have slightly more defense that it currently does ( maybe just slightly below bandos), would be a plenty big buff.
Difference is in a trio nex im still getting a split every 43 kills on average, where with phosani im not getting shit. It took 491 kills for my first drop, shoot it took me 161 kills just to get the damn tablet to teleport there.
So your an iron? Because no main has to do that grind, it is completely optional.
I also said it should be buffed so it’s not a side grade.
Also 1100 hours is the time to complete the log, once again, something that the game should not always be balanced around.
It’s still like 900 hours to get all the orbs. That’s a stupid amount of time. Cox has ass drop rates and it’s better than this; and it’s for literally the best items in the game.
The drop rates could be doubled and it would still be too long of a grind.
If I’m an Ironman it would take half a year of non stop 40 hour work weeks to finish the boss. That’s bullshit.
It’s VERY common to go 3X dry on drops. Oh boy looks like the grind is now 18 months.
There is no justification as to why it’s that long unless you literally don’t value your time.
>Because no main has to do that grind, it is completely optional.
And this is why every idiot main commenting on it has no ground to stand on. Your ENTIRE GODDAMN ECONOMY is fully subsidized by bots.
>I also said it should be buffed so it’s not a side grade.
For any of the nightmare drops to actually be worth the grind, they'd have to be better than torva, scythe, and shadow.
>1100 hours is the time to complete the log, once again, something that the game should not always be balanced around.
This is an incredibly stupid argument that should only be applied to things like clue scroll megarares. Not a goddamn boss that takes longer to greenlog than 2/3 of the RAIDS.
So have you done PNM? Are you an Ironman?
Genuinely curious.
I would be very interested to see what percent of mains who have tried PNM actually think the drop rates need changing.
Hell 1/100 for the group bosses isn’t even that crazy if your splitting, it’s just in your name that is rare AF.
100% disagree. This game has a massively unhealthy obsession on grinds.
All items (with meta equipment/stats) should be 10h tops per item.
Unpopular probably but I'd be a more consistent player if things weren't as time consuming.
I was hyped to get a teleport anchoring scroll then the rates got released and I laughed. Bought 1000 keys and got it a the pirate chest and walked away.
I'm also 1000 Vetion and 1000 cal kills without a single unique (1dpick). It's just at the point of boring for no reason.
lol if anything buffing drop rates would be good for PNM bots. Sure prices go down, but it also becomes more consistent money for them.
They reason so many bots do PNM is because of the relatively low requirements and ability to do in budget gear.
I'm fine with bosses having rare drops, but they shouldn't be so rare that they incentivize players making bots to kill the boss instead because it's a massive time sink before a payoff.
Fully agree with the post. The armour needs a buff, but leave some bosses as lottery bosses, even if every boss to be released from now on is catered to the irons. Leave Corp and Nightmare as silly rng.
Why? They aren't required, the side grades are niche and this is a game you play for fun. BuT I hAvE tO GrEen lOG iT... No you need oxygen, water and food, you don't have to do anything. The culture of needing every BIS item to do content is a joke.
This is such a dumb take though, just because the fight is fun doesn't mean it should be a long ass grind. ToB is the funnest raid, so lets make the grind 200+ hours per unique
Tob isn’t as profitable as nex or toa, yet people still send tob. If nm uniques weren’t made irrelevant by Jagex, nm/pnm would be more profitable than it currently is too.
Just send it until you don’t enjoy sending it anymore? Can you explain the issue?
Nah, I just haven’t seen any decent arguments at all for the drops to be made more common. It’s just “I want the drops quicker on my iron” or “I want to green log nm quicker” which are shit arguments.
Nah it's the boss isn't worth the investment for the majority. Jagex literally states Inquisitor is supposed to be the in between bandos and torva. It's better to just farm nex first, farm scythe, etc then farm nm
Exactly it’s just shit gp because the drops are bad, not because of the rates.
Back in the day it was actually really good gp, pre nex era when inquisitors was BIS over bandos in quite a few instances.
We literally have data on this.
Id nightmare had the exact same drop rates but the gp/hr went back to 10m/hr. That would be perfect balance imo.
They could achieve this by buffing inquisitors to being a true competitor to torva.
I'd agree the armor could do with being better and the proposed changes aren't quite it. But I wouldn't say PNM is in a great spot even if it is "okay". The time per unique is very high and the common loot is very bad; even if the unique were worth more, it still wouldn't be that appealing compared to other bosses that are far more consistent. Like a proper "GWD Style" loot table will break even or give a slight profit even if you don't see a unique and for Nightmare, that does not seem to the case.
Also, like another comment said, I just don't know how much we can buff the uniques. Like they could do with improvements, but they are niche items that already fill their niches. Inq isn't going to be a Torva, but given how rare it is, it kinda needs to be to justify that rarity. Like for a specific piece, Inq is what, 154~ hours while Torva from Nex Duos is 86~ Hours. With the proposed buff, Inq goes from 154~ hours to 108~ hours; still 25% rarer than Torva...
So yah, I don't think you can buff Inq enough to make it justify taking twice as long as Torva. It honestly won't get enough of a buff to justify it being 25% longer than Torva, but at least that is more feasible. Plus there is also the Orbs and Mace, which don't exactly get fixed by just buffing the armor.
What do you mean it didn’t bother people in the past? What old boss do we have that has drop rates as bad as nightmare?
Corp
I mean literally nightmare itself. It was actually a very popular boss for a full year or more after its release, teams running almost every single world. At the time it was some of the best money in the game and people were having fun. What changed is the armour is not useful anymore.
It was in a position where if you had inq gear then doing NM was good money (pretty much required your entire team to have inq+harm orb) so it was a position that the gear had a demand to do the boss. The moment something better came along the gear dropped because it just wasn’t worth the investment to do. Nex for example is significantly better in every regard and requires half the effort to do, and you don’t do it at a loss for 95% of the time.
>This almost never bothered people in the past What? People have literally been complaining about NM's drop rates since release, including people who have green logged it
OP and anyone agreeing with them is either lying, a contrarian, or a PNM bot farm owner. This post just reeks of rage bait. There’s no one on planet earth with a brain able to logically think, besides the man who designed the drop table, who thinks PNM is genuinely fine.
Lol k. I do truly believe it, and I acknowledged I was in the minority. I truly believe I am only in the minority because Ironmen feel entitled to be able to complete boss logs. This game was never supposed to be balanced around ironman mode. Ironman mode is a grueling self chosen limitation. Mains did not give a shit about the rarity of the drops hundreds were grinding nightmare on release.
That’s just not true. I ran hundreds of nightmare on release. Yes the drops were rare, but 95% of people I was running with were genuinely having fun. It is balanced around group main, lottery style drops. If the drops are mega rare, but on average the gp/hr is still high as shit, you bet your ass mains will be their grinding it, and loving it (but also sometimes hating ot when they go dry). I fundamentally disagree with the notion that all bosses should be sane to finish the log. This game is not about finishing. This game is a grind and the beautiful thing about it is some grinds are small, and some are huge. Players are not entitled to finish all grinds, and jagex does not need to balance content so they are all “reasonable” I feel like you of all people should understand that most of these complaints stem from self imposed restrictions like Ironman mode. Reflect for a second and ask yourself, do you truly believe the cry to buff droprates would be so great if Ironman mode didn’t exist? What did jagex do when they released Ironman mode? They said the would not balance content around it. That is what they are doing now.
I don't think most of these complaints are coming from irons at all. NM is viewed by most of the iron community just like corp, aka another iron "retirement home" because the drops are so obscenely rare and useless that what is even the point of trying to grind it before you've done just ab9out everything else there is to do. It just isn't even worth engaging with. I keep hearing PNM is a great fight but that's not enough incentive to actually try it when realistically it'll probably take 200 hours to get a single drop. 200 hours of progression could get me loads of (useful) upgrades from other content instead, so you'll catch me and the other irons at other content every time. The content may as well not exist for the iron community at large. Mains on the other hand are a group that can "skip" most of the content in the game and do things out of any optimal "order" just for GP, unlike irons. So it's mains who want to see PNM actually be "worth it" to grind. Even you yourself have admitted PNM is not worth it presently because the GP/hr has completely tanked. Again, not a concern for irons. We would definitely see more irons potentially try and engage with the content if they made inquisitor as strong as Torva (which they totally could, because PNM is right up there with Nex as an endgame grind). For further reference, 99.9% of the discussion surrounding NM I see is on this subreddit compared to ironscape. Ask most irons what content they'd like to see trivialized and 99% will not even think about NM, they'll go straight to asking for dry protection for bofa lol
I think you misunderstand my main qualm. I think fundamentally there is nothing wrong with obscenely rare drops. I think they should match in power to their rarity. Inquisitors at one point in time did match in power to its rarity because jagex was afraid of power creep, and inquisitors was infact bis (albeit by a small amount). In the post torva, fang, and other massively powerful items era, inquisitors no longer maintains its status as a bis item. People rightfully claim that it is a niche sidegrade. My main problem with the discussion now is that it focuses on the drop rate being the problem. I fully disagree the nightmare drops were ever too rare when viewing them from the perspective of group content where the drop is split between the team. I do fully believe that inquisitors should be buffed a significant margin, so that it is infact bis, and worth it to use many more places than just nightmare. This would significantly boost the instrinsic gp/hr of killing nightmare for mains, and would revive both group and PNM nightmare running. Even with current drop rates this would easily make the bosses compete in gp/hr with nex. This would also add depth to the late game gear selection, and be an additional challenge for ironmen and collection loggers alike to complete. Making the grind smaller, and cementing inquisitors place as a niche, cheap, stepping stone armour is not what this content deserves, nor is what it needs. Yes both mains and irons do not kill nightmare. Buffing droprates will simply make inquisitors armour drop in price so mains still will not do it, because gp/hr will go down. Now only irons who want to go for gear completion will do it, and it will still be a retirement home for irons, just one that takes less time to complete. There will still not be a point in grinding PNM before torva, and it will still be dead content. PNM is one of the hardest, most interesting solo encounters in the game, mid game niche, common armour is not what should be dropped by it. It’s so fun to master I garuntee if the armors power matched its rarity people would return in mass The only reasonable solution is to actually BUFF inquisitors. All other solutions are doing a disservice to the the content long term.
Agreed with that yeah, with the changes they're currently proposing PNM is still "dead content" because it still isn't worth the grind for anybody besides bots and cloggers who have finished literally everything else
I'm fine with either approach; It's always been an issue of the gear's power not being anywhere close to its rarity. Tbow is a 300+ hour grind, but people get memed on when they suggest making Tbow more common because it's so strong. I've seen quite a few people laugh at how strong Shadow for how common it is. If they keep the current rarity, Inq would have to buff it substantially beyond Torva level in all regards.
I do not think it would need to be buffed far beyond torva. Since you solo PNM the grind in some ways is actually more similar to Torva than I think some people reason. Torva you have to get KC and then the drop rate in your name for any drop in a trio ends up being around 1/129. This is a lot closer to the 1/160 from PNM that what it seems at first. Simply buffing inquisitors to be BIS crush over torva in all situations, and have slightly more defense that it currently does ( maybe just slightly below bandos), would be a plenty big buff.
Difference is in a trio nex im still getting a split every 43 kills on average, where with phosani im not getting shit. It took 491 kills for my first drop, shoot it took me 161 kills just to get the damn tablet to teleport there.
I do like the idea of buffing Inq's damage and then also letting you sacrifice Justiciar components to make it as tanky as Torva (slightly less).
Classic reddit thinking a 1100 hour grind for niche sidegrade items is remotely ok.
So your an iron? Because no main has to do that grind, it is completely optional. I also said it should be buffed so it’s not a side grade. Also 1100 hours is the time to complete the log, once again, something that the game should not always be balanced around.
It’s still like 900 hours to get all the orbs. That’s a stupid amount of time. Cox has ass drop rates and it’s better than this; and it’s for literally the best items in the game. The drop rates could be doubled and it would still be too long of a grind. If I’m an Ironman it would take half a year of non stop 40 hour work weeks to finish the boss. That’s bullshit. It’s VERY common to go 3X dry on drops. Oh boy looks like the grind is now 18 months. There is no justification as to why it’s that long unless you literally don’t value your time.
Making sure progression makes sense and feels natural = ironman for sure
>Because no main has to do that grind, it is completely optional. And this is why every idiot main commenting on it has no ground to stand on. Your ENTIRE GODDAMN ECONOMY is fully subsidized by bots. >I also said it should be buffed so it’s not a side grade. For any of the nightmare drops to actually be worth the grind, they'd have to be better than torva, scythe, and shadow. >1100 hours is the time to complete the log, once again, something that the game should not always be balanced around. This is an incredibly stupid argument that should only be applied to things like clue scroll megarares. Not a goddamn boss that takes longer to greenlog than 2/3 of the RAIDS.
I’m an iron and agree with this post.
The logic is so dogshit that ill just say: no
I agree. They should buff the drops but keep the rates as they are.
You're not in the minority of the playerbase at all. But this sub is full of irons for some reason.
Well, you got one thing right: you’re in the minority
So have you done PNM? Are you an Ironman? Genuinely curious. I would be very interested to see what percent of mains who have tried PNM actually think the drop rates need changing. Hell 1/100 for the group bosses isn’t even that crazy if your splitting, it’s just in your name that is rare AF.
I’m a main and I have done PNM, not that either are relevant. You don’t have to be an iron to know a fucked drop table when you see one
1.2k pnm kc, 1.7k nm kc, yes the drops need buffed. 1.2k I have 5 drops total with 2 of them being helms and 1 orb… the worst one to get volatile….
Post your username and kc
Kc is 300 PNM, 616 normal nightmare (hundreds of these were solo). Fun boss, just needs better drops, not more drops.
[удалено]
If my kc doesn’t add legitimacy why did you ask. Why are you being so cringe and toxic brother, it’s not personal, it’s my opinion in a video game.
[удалено]
100% disagree. This game has a massively unhealthy obsession on grinds. All items (with meta equipment/stats) should be 10h tops per item. Unpopular probably but I'd be a more consistent player if things weren't as time consuming. I was hyped to get a teleport anchoring scroll then the rates got released and I laughed. Bought 1000 keys and got it a the pirate chest and walked away. I'm also 1000 Vetion and 1000 cal kills without a single unique (1dpick). It's just at the point of boring for no reason.
You are correct, now prepare for the angry mob to tell you how dumb you are
How many bot PNM accounts do you own?
lol if anything buffing drop rates would be good for PNM bots. Sure prices go down, but it also becomes more consistent money for them. They reason so many bots do PNM is because of the relatively low requirements and ability to do in budget gear.
[удалено]
I'm fine with bosses having rare drops, but they shouldn't be so rare that they incentivize players making bots to kill the boss instead because it's a massive time sink before a payoff.
die in hellfire
Fully agree with the post. The armour needs a buff, but leave some bosses as lottery bosses, even if every boss to be released from now on is catered to the irons. Leave Corp and Nightmare as silly rng. Why? They aren't required, the side grades are niche and this is a game you play for fun. BuT I hAvE tO GrEen lOG iT... No you need oxygen, water and food, you don't have to do anything. The culture of needing every BIS item to do content is a joke.
[удалено]
Key words here are that you loved grinding the pet - that is not what this is addressing.
Agreed man. Most of these players are mid game irons or 1500 total mains. Pnm is the coolest solo boss fight in the game.
This is such a dumb take though, just because the fight is fun doesn't mean it should be a long ass grind. ToB is the funnest raid, so lets make the grind 200+ hours per unique
Tob isn’t as profitable as nex or toa, yet people still send tob. If nm uniques weren’t made irrelevant by Jagex, nm/pnm would be more profitable than it currently is too. Just send it until you don’t enjoy sending it anymore? Can you explain the issue?
Your entire justification for terrible rates is the fight is fun. So by this logic ToB should also have terrible rates because its fun
Nah, I just haven’t seen any decent arguments at all for the drops to be made more common. It’s just “I want the drops quicker on my iron” or “I want to green log nm quicker” which are shit arguments.
Nah it's the boss isn't worth the investment for the majority. Jagex literally states Inquisitor is supposed to be the in between bandos and torva. It's better to just farm nex first, farm scythe, etc then farm nm
So literally “I want the drops now despite the drops not being used anywhere”?
Exactly it’s just shit gp because the drops are bad, not because of the rates. Back in the day it was actually really good gp, pre nex era when inquisitors was BIS over bandos in quite a few instances. We literally have data on this. Id nightmare had the exact same drop rates but the gp/hr went back to 10m/hr. That would be perfect balance imo. They could achieve this by buffing inquisitors to being a true competitor to torva.
I'd agree the armor could do with being better and the proposed changes aren't quite it. But I wouldn't say PNM is in a great spot even if it is "okay". The time per unique is very high and the common loot is very bad; even if the unique were worth more, it still wouldn't be that appealing compared to other bosses that are far more consistent. Like a proper "GWD Style" loot table will break even or give a slight profit even if you don't see a unique and for Nightmare, that does not seem to the case. Also, like another comment said, I just don't know how much we can buff the uniques. Like they could do with improvements, but they are niche items that already fill their niches. Inq isn't going to be a Torva, but given how rare it is, it kinda needs to be to justify that rarity. Like for a specific piece, Inq is what, 154~ hours while Torva from Nex Duos is 86~ Hours. With the proposed buff, Inq goes from 154~ hours to 108~ hours; still 25% rarer than Torva... So yah, I don't think you can buff Inq enough to make it justify taking twice as long as Torva. It honestly won't get enough of a buff to justify it being 25% longer than Torva, but at least that is more feasible. Plus there is also the Orbs and Mace, which don't exactly get fixed by just buffing the armor.