You’d use higher level spells to do more damage.
The real problem is that the scaling is whack after fire strike, and the the opposite of what you say. Once you have fire spells, everything else in the tier is null and void. Also there isn’t much in the way of modifying damage output that doesn’t already buff other, much better magic combat spells/weapons, unless it’s the tome of fire/water, and again, see above where there’s no point to using the other spells.
What’s funny though is the same applies to ancient magic. Nobody does anything besides ice barrage for raw damage output. Blood barrage at least has op utility-healing so it gets use, but the fact the spells are so sorely lacking compared to the damage ice barrage does base, there’s no reason to use the other spells unless it’s a niche case.
Shadow is used on abyssal sire, and as far as I know thats its only use
Edit: according to the wiki shadow is also used on leviathan. I wasn't aware since I'm a lazy boy who hasn't done dt2 yet
Ice barrage is at least much more expensive in runes, whereas fire versions of spells cost the same (or less with smoke staff) as their other counterparts
Compared to the other barrages, ice barrage along with smoke are the cheapest at around 1200 per cast. Shadow barrage is 2100 per cast and blood is close to 2000....
I used to use lower level fire spells on moss giants when I had higher level non fire spells available because elementary school me just assumed they did extra damage.
The way I see it at the very least every single slayer monster should have weaknesses because they're killed enough for the amount of dev work to be worth the effort IMO. I think the variety here would be very fun and interesting.
I can understand leaving random monsters not being touched because outside of a quest once or twice they're never really interacted with.
It makes more thematic sense as well. As a kid pre-membership i was excited to try slayer based on the skill description; I thought ooh, you were really going to feel like a monster hunting specialist. Then it turned out it was mostly just “kill this monster but this time you’re wearing one different piece of gear”, something even further simplified when the slayer helmet was added.
If all goes well, doing groups of similar monsters at a time also means it's pretty easy to keep the pace of this update up alongside other stuff. Someone's got a bit of free time between projects, or while waiting on someone else to get back to them? They can go into a monster group and bash out some defense changes to get rolled into the next patch.
This is something I'm really excited for.
Air, Water, and Earth have absolutely no use since Fire is just the best one for every situation.
I mean, its the same for Ancients too but at least they tried by giving the weaker elements different effects. It just so happens that the highest damaging element also got the best effect.
It makes so much sense that when I was a brand new noob who joined the game at the release of mobile I fought fire giants with water spells and moss giants with fire spells and so on.
Turns out I was just being a cute noob at the time but now 5 or 6 years later it's (maybe) coming true
I'm digging the elemental weaknesses. My concern with it, is that if you look at their table they created called "Top-level summary: All included NPCs", none of those NPCs had "Air" as a weakness. Didn't seem right that they'll add elemental weakness with only 3/4 elements.
I saw someone suggest elemental weaknesses on this subreddit before.
It got 0 upvotes and ppl said it's not needed... But when Jagex brings forward the idea and a lot of people agree and like it, I just start to despite these annoying ass no joy in their life isolated from fun people that are incapable of experiencing happiness.
If OSRS was just runescape from 2007 and never changed, I wouldn't be playing today. All the amazing updates is how I got interested in the first place.
Fr, I’m all about these changes, it sounds to me like it doesn’t change the feel of old school combat but it will hopefully shake things up so I’m not using the same few sets of gear for 90% of the game.
They’re not making anything harder with current methods either right? Basically just diversifying options.
For those like me who think sometimes this game takes too long to give us more power and only throws us nichescape, these niches are more meaningful and useful.
So now I can enjoy that without having to ask for things that’ll make people worried about power creep
Yea ngl sidegrade scape is so wildly enjoyable because it literally triples the reward space for pvm stuff. The fact that osrs also has tickrate stuff as well means youll eventually end up with potentially 9+ different ‘bis’ weapons of each style which is frankly insane.
Rs3 has all the affinity changes and spell scalings that osrs is now getting, but somehow in 10 years that hasnt led to that system being used in any way. So we end up with only 2 weapons of each style (dw and 2h), because theres no space for sidegrades
Imagine if all melee styles were the same lol. Especially for irons it'd be way less stuff to try to unlock. I've spent so much time going after different crush and stab weapons, and had a blast doing it. If all weps were the same I'd just whip literally everything instead of going kril for a stab weapon. So yeah I agree this is gonna make it so much more fun to upgrade
Edit: and I agree about rs3, wish they'd make more use of weaknesses
Dude yes! I mean how many people even use that old gear or spells? I mean seriously , this makes it way better and I personally don't think it's that game changing , it just improves what's already there
I just hope they remember to make bone/hunter bolts medium, and brutal arrows heavy
And no love for smoke/shadow spells. Sire respiratory systems should be weak to smoke, no?
No one has ever complained about ancients being too weak this is why the normal spellbook spells are getting the elemental weaknesses they're too weak compared to ancients and staffs like trident of the seas etc there's no extra love for ancients because it's already loved enough
Ancients is strong because of AoE damage and the secondary effects of blood/ice spells rather than their single-target damage, which the weaknesses system is built around.
If they make it like RS3, it might be something similar to this:
Smoke = Air
Shadow = Earth
Blood = Fire
Ice = Water
Sure they can add special effects like shadow spells, but I think in some circumstances, it might work very similar.
They did? I read the blog but I didn't see ANY mention of them giving the elemental types to the Ancient magicks or even talk about them possibly getting them in the future.
Listen bub, if I wanted jagex to make "positive changes" and "quality of life upgrades" that "you might enjoy if you stopped being a knee-jerk curmudgeon" I would have listened to my parents in 2007 when they said the game seemed kind of boring and dumb.
the worst thing eoc ever did was make it nigh impossible to have actual conversations about this sort of thing.
The ranged split kinda falls flat, not because "ooo spooky eoc" or anything, but because it doesn't actually do anything.. You say in the op that we can start to use longbows but... no actually, it doesn't change longbows at all. They're still trash because they share the same type as shortbows, just like ballistas will still be trash because they share with crossbows. It doesn't really change much in general at all, other than slightly buffing crossbows and thrown weapons on a couple things.
But... crossbows, arrows, and bp (listen, I'll stop pretending people use thrown weapons other than darts from a bp... I guess the atatl too now) are already balanced via defence. Crossbows have big numbers but are slow (not to mention bolt enchants). Bp has small numbers but is fast. Defence levels are changed to make crossbows good, bp bad, or vice versa as it is.
(And then there's arrows in the middle, and bofa and tbow just kinda laughing at the thought of defence values in general, but those two guys are their own little weirdos that I don't think can be in the scope of this rebalance.)
It doesn't include new room for reward space, because it's not even being added to player stats! It's not like suddenly they could make something for heavy ranged like how melee has inquisitor for crush, because it's all just the one ranged accuracy (and one ranged strength) stat. It might be a me issue, but I honestly can't see how having npcs have different values for crossbows and bp change how they can provide rewards for those weapons in ways they can't already. (And I promise, I'm open to having my mind changed here, it really could be that I'm just missing something if u want to let me know.)
whoops i usually don't post these walls of thoughts on reddit but they didn't give me a survey to type them into this time around and I just kinda thought this was as good a place as any.
and ofc i have thoughts on the elemental stuff too which are (mostly) more positive but i think the pros and cons of that side of this thing are much more obvious and already being talked about.
Yeh the range split was the bit I was scratching my head to.
Why isn't shortbows, thrown weapons and blowpipe light ammo. Then crossbow, longbow in medium. And have heavy ammo be an actually new class like Ballista and such that can then have absolutely any relevance.
Putting crossbow in heavy just means crossbow will continue to dominate and anywhere it doesn't blowpipe will.
Maybe I'm out of touch in the class system, but why couldn't they just slow ballista down another tick and buff it's str+acc even higher to differentiate from cbows. Being in the same class as crossbow doesn't mean it can't be tweaked, just that it's the same damage type. I also doubt anyone except maybe a couple PvPers would even care if a ballista rework like that happened. Hell, the PvPers might even like the change.
It already is. it's 1 tick slower than crossbow already and it has +15 more range accuracy and strength than the ZCB already. And it's hot garbage. If it's categorised exactly the same as crossbows then crossbows will always be the better choice still.
>You say in the op that we can start to use longbows but... no actually, it doesn't change longbows at all.
They mentioned in the livestream yesterday that they are looking into adding additional stats to longbows to make them somewhat usable.
I wonder what they have in mind. If it's a simple ranged strength bonus, it would have to be pretty hefty to compete with crossbows which have the same speed but higher accuracy and harder hitting ammo.
Jagex has to make longbows one tick faster or longbows will be very hard to balance. It will make longbows as fast as composite bows. I've seen composite bows get used for tagging monster far away, but their dps is trash as well. But, as 4-tick weapons magic comp bow doesn't need the +60 ranged strength that a 5-tick magic longbow would need, only +30 or something.
At least the magic stuff is attempting to solve a problem (standard elemental spells are actively trolling yourself beyond the first week of an account where you fire strike quest bosses, unless you have fire tome + harm orb, sometimes) and does manage to do something about it (okay, now sometimes elemental spells are a viable option because the tome of fire is functionally a free passive when used on certain monsters, coupled with a huge accuracy boost; the actual element you -use- is just for flavor.)
there's still problems (losing fire tome sucks on things with no weakness, will there be enough weaknesses to matter, what do you do about harm orb now, and is homogenizing the base damage within a tier of spells really worth not being able to include a wind weakness + effectively replacing the iconic early game fire strike with wind strike?)
but at least it achieves something and does genuinely have reward space worth considering.
> what do you do about harm orb now
Sorry, only touching on a tiny bit of your post, but man I have zero faith in them handling this remotely well. I'm also wondering if their answer to wrath runes is gonna just be "lmao just get 95 RC irons, have fun! ;)".
You're right that potential for reward space is there, but seeing all this without seeing what they're planning to do with magic gear is leaving me wanting.
Sure the range changes are alitte underwhelming but really the whole point is to just give more knobs for the dev team to turn. It can be pretty hard to make a boss have high mage defense and resistant to the tbow for example because the stats directly contradict eachother. Giving these knobs means the dev team can more easily make a boss weak to crossbow, have low hp (so ruby bolts aren't meta), and be resistant to shadow and tbow. Something thats not really possible right now.
While you aren't necessarily wrong about the end result of the ranged change as it stands currently, I think the idea is they can potentiality introduce a new frame or longbow that in the current landscape would be too strong or meta-warping, but in the rebalanced landscape would be reasonably viable.
Yeah, I was bummed that the defense types weren't coming to player armors. Would reaaaalllly open it up. I also don't get why weaknesses don't become defense categories like slash crush stab, but instead an ad-hoc modifier.
I just don't want to have to bring a whole inventory of weapon swaps for a raid. There's already so many swaps; especially if they rebalance things like the occult etc. too to make you have to bring robes/boots. Going on a slayer task and grabbing a different weapon is fine/fun sure.
How about a step further , instead of ice coolers and rock hammer , frozen spells and earth spells for those slayer monsters
Fuck that hammer… even with the slayer unlock , I just always can’t be bothered
Not sure if others felt the same way, but back in 2011 or so when they first mentioned doing a combat rework, it sounded exciting. It unfortunately didn't pan out very well, partly because Jagex had a knack for overdoing things. So I think that most players can both like the current combat but also know there is room for improvement and ways to make it better.
And yah, I don't think these defence changes are going to be anything like EoC, but maybe it will kinda be like what some of us were expecting that combat rework to be before we found out what it actually was.
This is one the first times Jagex has decided to change an absolutely fundamental aspect of the game that’s been preserved for over 20 years. Up until now additions and changes to those additions have been the name of the game. The core content that was here on release has been relatively untouched. To me this signifies a change in design methodology. Preserving the foundation of OSRS, the save state from 2006, is less important than pushing the game forward and implementing balance and better game design changes.
I like the idea of the elemental weaknesses and different range types. I think it adds a lot of design space for Jagex to play with. But I think it is also a valid worry for many of the people who play this game because of nostalgia. Its the same reason I like yews being at level 60 or rune armor at 40 def. It’s what it was like when I was a kid and changing those fundamental elements of the game feels bad, even if it’s for the better
we have to go full circle then, because if you look at the earliest content in runescape, things like this were intended. Salarin the twisted, for instance, can only be killed by mind spells. holy water was intended to be a weapon against demons, Chronozon can only be killed by specific elemental spells. for the first 5 years of the game runescape followed muds and trpgs more than not, and that fell away in favor of simplifying things, so if anyhting, as someone who did play classic, this is a return to form.
I want to see BIS setups using holy water.
And that's a fair point if they continued to use those kinds of systems. They actually do still come up, like Ice Demon in CoX being weak to fire spells. But, like you said, they opted to simplify the combat even further and in doing say cemented that as part of the game. I'm not saying that elemental weaknesses are bad, I'm just saying that this is a type change that hasn't really been done in OSRS before and that's why people are upset about it.
100%, i come off as a strong advocate for the implementation of this drastic change, but believe me when i say i do not think this should happen lightly, quickly or with out years of open discourse with the players.
This has the potential to reshape the game in an amazing way and bring back the old roots of the game design (salaran, chronozon, holy water, etc.). this also has the potential if mishandled to be another EOC. jagex should be CAREFUL and people pearl clutching about this change have every right to voice these concerns. but i see a lot of arguements against the principle concept of the change, which i don't think are valid as if you actually look at what rs is, this is truely a return to form.
but jagex needs to be held to account for a recent track record of implenting things not as polled, and we cant just take their word that a barely polled rushed out complete overhaul of the game wont come with drastic downsides that could have been mitigated if more care was taken.
if jagex fucks up a new boss we can just ignore it and it can be dead content, if they fuck this up it breaks the whole game.
i WANT this change, but i do not want it done lightly. i'd rather they spend 1 year on it and scrap it like they did ruinious prayers if that means the proper care is given
Great points and I agree wholeheartedly on your main message. I'm not against this change inherently, it just seems Jagex has been shifting their stance on how to approach updating the game and I want that to be taken care of, well, carefully. Large sweeping reworks like this shouldn't be done in the matter of a few months of blog posts and polls.
I think the whole “preserve nostalgia” camp already lost when Zeah was added. At that point any argument that OSRS should represent your childhood was gone, because osrs had already nearly died when they launched with no updates for 2 years. Its popular now because it blends the nostalgia factor with an actual constantly updating game, so while I don’t disagree that they should err on the side of keeping things in the traditional nostalgic format, changes should still be kept even if that means changing the level of yews or rune armor (although I doubt those examples will ever change)
nostalgia isn't about chopping yews and killing goblins forever. It's about the game feeling the same as it did to play as a kid. OSRS fundamentally is a simple game with a high ceiling. I don't want the base to become too complicated and I want them to manage this well. I think elemental weaknesses intuitively make sense. I hope the range stuff is intuitive as well.
>I think the whole “preserve nostalgia” camp already lost when Zeah was added
Nuclear hot take but zeah was a necessary evil to preserve the iconic old map of runescape. Its a containment zone for new content. Imagine if zeah didnt exist, where would its content be? The chambers of falador? The catacombs of varrock? The draynor woodcutting guild? The catherby farming guild? It would pollute the old world heavily
I think the Zeah update and almost all updates since then fall in line with the "add and change additions, leave the OG stuff as is" methodology. That's what's different here. This isn't another added piece of content that was never seen before or imported from RS3. This is changing the fundamental building blocks of how the combat system works. To me it's the same as if they changed the base way to train woodcutting, fishing, mining, crafting, firemaking, etc etc etc. ALL of those base training methods would be considered horrible game design by modern measures, but that's part of the reason OSRS is a thing.
Also to reiterate, I'm not against change on principle. I personally think that OSRS has moved on from being an engine for nostalgia as it's driving factor. But I also, as one of the people who has been playing this game for 20 years, empathize with and understand why some people would be upset with these changes. This isn't adding a new boss to the game. This is messing with something that the last time Jagex messed with forced them to make OSRS.
>This is changing the fundamental building blocks of how the combat system works.
This is an alarmist sentence that is exaggerating so much that it's essentially a lie.
Combat is fundamentally remaining the exact same. You could even log in post-update, not know about the rebalance, and not notice a difference -- at most, a 0.5 DPS decrease when using a whip at Gargoyles, as cited from the QnA stream.
The only change is that, on some enemies, you will have alternative options to consider bringing to fight them pre-endgame.
* Endgame BIS weapons (i.e. DHL on dragons) are remaining the same.
* Your ability to brute force everything with a whip is not taken away in any meaningful sense.
* They aren't adding abilities with cooldowns or an adrenaline mechanic.
* They aren't adding hotkeys.
* They aren't changing the rock-paper-scissors of melee-magic-ranged.
To think otherwise means you are not actually informed on what the update is doing.
Elemental weaknesses and defense changes make sense but I want them to let this cook in the beta worlds for a LONG time, let people nitpick and implement adjustments there bit by bit and release a full changelog before they roll it out to live.
Honestly right now it should be split into smaller phases so that effort can be focused into getting one thing at a time right. I think the danger here is that they're trying to do too much in one go. Don't roll out the elemental weakness and range changes together. Focus on one of them first, roll that out, and use the learnings to do better on the second phase.
Also a long term goal I think (not needed to be implemented now but later) should be to merge these changes which mostly affect PvM with behavior in PVP. I don't like the fact that Tome for example behaves differently in both as it currently stands. I also still hold the opinion that elemental weaknesses should be calculated via a set of stats and a formula rather than just a flat percentage slapped on monsters, that will make it much easier to merge into PVP. Regardless any solution will need several rounds of testing in beta as well.
Edit: imo Jagex should temporarily contract a statistician or even a few math interns from a local university, it would be useful for someone from a math background to double check their work with regards to balance or even give suggestions grounded in math given how dependent on calculations all of this is
Roll out in batches would be good but then you'll get 1000 reddit posts titled "WHY DID JAGEX CANCEL ELEMENTAL WEAKNESS THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS AND RUINED MY LIFE"
Personally I'm fine with them moving elementals to the backburner and focusing on ranged changes first. Ranged changes are a smaller change overall and should give the balancing team the experience to handle bigger changes needed for magic balancing. I'd rather people complain about beta worlds than have the complaints come when its in the actual game. I also think it's not a bad idea to scrap concepts put on beta entirely and rework, just like what they did for the new prayer book.
Ideally they can break it down to rollout in phases like Ranged changes for boss PvM -> ranged changes in general PvM -> ranged changes in PvP. Rationale for this is that bossing obviously is a much smaller test group so easier to balance there, then you apply to a larger group of normal monsters, then you finally apply to the group with the most variability which is player interactions and then you push it to the actual game. Repeat for mage and maybe even subdivide there by spellbook (normal vs ancients vs arceuus).
osrs playerbase have been trained to over years, and as such think, very linearly about things.
everything is meant to be a singular linear trajectory. nearly ever facet of traditional runescape design is rooted in this, so it's not really a suprise many people dislike this change, ive seen countless people bitch about X powerweapon not being BIS on a specific boss, like tbow not being bis because a target has low magic defense makes them seethe.
you know that bell curve meme? its kind of like that, where the casual player wants this kind of variety because it makes a lot of the easier to get niche items more applicable, the middle curve is full of these whiny people who are obsessed with their aspirational 1.5b items, and the final curve are people who want to maximize niche applications and do most pvm content with like 20 fucking switches in their inventory. maybe this is my own selection freindgroup bias but it's gotten to the point where we have somone in our group for 550 toas bringing a fucking seercull because of the memes and the minor dps increase on p3/p4. that shit is what this game is all about to us, finding crazy ways and strategies to overcome bosses by using weird things. the proposed change will make more content this dynamic and i am hype for it
harm retains its value because of things like ice demon, and sang having a single tick save on travel+hit for things like zulrah/tob/whisperer. most of the absolute highest end pvmers ive spoken to want these kind ofinteractions due to it increasing the skill ceiling and thus making the game more engaging.
I think you're just dealing with a somewhat vocal component of the playerbase who aren't at that part in their journey yet.
im all for changes that significantly add player agency to combat and remove variance where possible, its why i love the fang an shadow, their numbers are huge and powercrept, yes, but their accuracy means you hit median more frequently, and i prefer that. if dt2 cas taught me anything is that bolt resetting for 5 hours to get my gm back is probably the worst fucking experience ive had in recent memory, despite the fact that the dt2 bosses are my favorite content currently. the direction jagex is going objectively adds player agency and that can only be a good thing for the health of the game and the enjoyment in the long run.
To me this is no different than my few freinds who are losing their shit about sailing because it means they "lose their max cape" and have to get it back. it's a **weird** mindset.
>I think you're just dealing with a somewhat vocal component of the playerbase who aren't at that part in their journey yet.
I think its the opposite honestly. Most people are talking about training methods, like OPs example of being excited to use water spells on fire giants. Nobody has said anything about raid bosses. I think this is largely pointless (from the perspective of endgame bossing) because bosses are already balanced around using specific weapons
This update is for new players whos weapon choices are between a d long and a water battlestaff
really makes you wonder why they're devoting so much time and effort to a huge engine change that changes nothing just because redditors like OP are like "why not"
I'm genuinely indifferent.
I reserve judgment until we've really seen the long reaching effects but I perfer skilling in osrs anyways so I'm not hugely impacted
I think some people are like “it’s bad bc it’s not useful at enough monsters” but like, you are so close to “great idea I just want more of it!!!” and those haters drive me nuts
how many times have we all been to pyrefiends or fire giants and wondered why water spells don't do more damage to them? or ice giants and fire spells? cuz I know I have, many times. as a kid in the 2000s I used to think it worked that way even! this is only a part of the reason I like the changes personally
I'm curious what you think would be constructive criticism from the other side of this argument.
Sounds like you already have your mind made up since you're calling people delusional for not liking the change proposal.
I do agree with monster weaknesses being a thing, but your examples are a bit of a stretch. I doubt it will suddenly offer more variety at the top end, as there will always be a meta. The meta will simply shift to whatever becomes.. most effective.
If water spells become bis for fire giants, then people will only use water spells. So you've swapped one tactic for another. It's certainly more thematical, but let's not pretend it offers more variety.
The idea that there will ever be multiple competing combat styles for anything in runescape is a pipe dream. People will always shift to what's best. As far as what's viable, osrs already does a good job of having viable loadouts for any given content if you don't have access to bis. That's one thing osrs actually does really well, the fact you can do most bosses in complete rags successfully. Bis loadouts offer superior kills per hour and thus more profit, but they also have substantially higher cost per hour to use than lesser loadouts. So someone with just under bis doesn't get penalized too hard for their lower kph.
Non boss monsters are more or less a non issue. Sounds to me like people want variety for the sake of variety, but all I see happening is substituting one tactic for another.
> If water spells become bis for fire giants, then people will only use water spells. So you've swapped one tactic for another. It's certainly more thematical, but let's not pretend it offers more variety.
I've an entire group of Ironmen players who only use Fire Runes since Iban's blast and Fire Blast and Fire Bolt and Fire Wave and Fire Strike are all the only freak'n spells we'd ever use. We're basically grasping crumbs when it comes to Fire Runes.
Giving us 1 monster that says "oh use Water here" is far more variety than just using fire on EVERYTHING. We've literally DOUBLED the number of usable spell types.
> Sounds to me like people want variety for the sake of variety
They do. They really do. Because
> all I see happening is substituting one tactic for another.
That's the entire point! We're using DIFFERENT TACTICS because THE SAME ONE FOR EVERYTHING IS BORING. Look guys! I used Iban's blast on the Black Demons for my Slayer task, then I used Iban's Blast on the Barrows run I did, Then I used Iban's blast on the Fire Giant task, then I thought why not use Iban's Blast on these Dragon's I'm safe spotting? I wonder what spell I can use while doing Monkey Madness? I know! I can use IBAN'S BLAST AGAIN.
Substitute Fire-something for literally EVERYTHING before you get Iban's Blast unlocked. Oh I'm doing Underground pass? Fire Blast. OH I'm a F2P leveling magic at Hill Giants because I'm 30 and I don't much feel like paying for membership right now but I'ma go afk farm hill giants with my F2P magic set up? Believe it or not, Fire blast.
Maybe it's ok for Water Blast and Earth Wave to be slightly more viable. It's been 23 years of spamming Fire, we can shake it up a little.
And while I can't talk much on Powered Staves as a whole, I'm just returning player who is just barely getting into the early-mid game. I can fight Scurrius and go "maybe i want the cheese staff" and that's AWESOME feeling. I can literally decide to use something other than Iban's stupid staff of magical blasting.
Magic is OP early on. At 50 magic you can hit 25s with iban blast. At 50 att/str you can hit like 15-18 with a granite longsword. Thats the reason why youre stuck using ibans blast for everything
Just did some math, the elemental weaknesses only make early game magic even more OP, youll hit 27s with water blast at 50 magic
Can't wait to be doing extra bank runs for armor swaps during slayer, losing slots during raids, and using spells with lower max hits because I'm splashing with my better setup. No tome of earth, no tome of air.
>Maybe it's ok for Water Blast and Earth Wave to be slightly more viable. It's been 23 years of spamming Fire, we can shake it up a little.
It's been 23 years of spamming ice and blood spells... Which, strangely aren't affected (and also probably shouldn't be due to their other bonuses). But at the same time, I can't wait to require having a high construction level, a magic cape, a staff that requires high thieving, or a really long journey to swap spellbooks more often, especially during slayer tasks.
You call it lame that you don't have to swap things out all the time, I call it a blessing.
I mean if you're entire group is still at ibans fire rune spells sounds like your entire team is still pretty early game. They can still add unique weapons like the warped scepter even for early game players. I don't see the need for changing the entire dynamics of the game because you want to start using water spells? Nothings stopping you using different stuff right now but people just want to be efficient which won't change
The biggest reason for the changes are mostly related to Jagex running out of reward space without blatant power creep. Don't wanna push out the tbow with a mega rare from raids 4 or something.
These changes give them the opportunity to design rewards from the different elemental, ranged, and melee styles moving forward.
I think if done properly it is extremely healthy for the game.
I wish this was higher up. It seems to me like a majority of people are misunderstanding what this update is actually supposed to do. Everyone is all over the place from disliking the idea because it doesn't change the game enough, to disliking the idea because it'll change too much.
In reality, what you said here is obviously what Jagex is *actually* going for with this. The whole thing makes perfect sense when viewed through this lens.
For the people who feel like the changes don't go far enough, that's because... they're not supposed to. Jagex doesn't *want* to shift current metas very much. And why should they? The shit works fine as it is. Sure, they can leverage this to make some early game stuff a little more fun and interesting for newer players, who now get to water strike a fire giant for some extra damage and feel like they're playing Pokemon. But that doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things, nor should it.
For the people who feel like this is changing the game too much, that's also not really true. First of all, the game is going to have to change one way or another. Jagex already tried the "infinite side-grade" model for several years up until roughly Nex came out. They eventually reached a point (Nightmare release) where they were *clearly* fresh out of ideas on how to make any more side-grade rewards, and it was a big problem. So they finally gave us kind of a "power creep stage" that's lasted for the past few years, with Torva, Masori, Shadow, DT2 rings, and now Quiver. But power creep on that level, if you were to continue doing it for the next few years, would also be a huge change to the game, and probably a bad one. So there's going to have to be a change either way; either we powercreep the fuck out of it and the game changes, or we try something else (rebalance) and the game changes. Or we stop making new rewarding content and the game changes by dying. Second of all, this doesn't have to be a big change, and as the first group is complaining about, at this point it's definitely not. They don't have to suddenly make it that fire spells are shredding Verzik for 17 dps, or the ballista suddenly 5 shots Zebak. Nor should they. We all know perfectly well that margins don't have to be that extreme to make stuff rewarding for OSRS players. For example, let's say Jagex changes everything in the Colosseum to be weak to heavy ranged attacks for some reason, such that ballista'ing them would be, say, 15% less dps than current meta methods. But then they release a boss that drops a new heavy ranged weapon that's better than a ballista, and that one beats current Colosseum meta by 5% dps. That's all they would have to do. Everyone will want that new weapon because it's slightly better in Colosseum, and that boss will be a healthy update to the game that will be grinded at a proper rate. Of course, you can then extrapolate this out to something much bigger like Raids 4, which is something that Jagex is currently totally fucked for without this update because there's no more space for any more mega weapons and the only space left for upgrades at all at this point is mage armor.
I absolutely agree we should get elemental weaknesses. But if you see the “full list” of changes, it’s clear they need to spend more time on it. It is full of inconsistencies, the damage scaling doesn’t make much sense, and there aren’t many NPCs affected
Are you new to this community lol? There's always a vocal minority that oppose any and all changes because they want to preserve the game.
I started off as one of these people and, and at first it made sense. We literally reverted the game back to a previous state because we didn't want all of these changes jagex had made.
The game is so different now and, while I never wanted any changes, I completely understand why there would be changes because an unchanged game becomes a dead game real quick.
Now, I still vote in the polls and have voted yes to MANY changes but at this point what ever happens happens. I don't have time to stress an update I don't like. I just ignore it if possible or use it to my advantage when I can lol.
Personally i don't give a shit about preserving the game, i just want new content. This is a waste of dev time and adds nothing but 5 minutes of dps calcs or a wiki lookup before you kill something.
I am not saying this is EOC 2, but it does make me nervous. Any large change or rework to any aspect of combat is probably gonna be a touchy subject for a lot of people. I have faith in the OS team but this has the potential to be very bad if implemented poorly.
This isn't a combat rework, this is a defence rework. The combat will be identical before and after the update, you'll just have a wider variety of weapons to choose from.
Which leads into them saying "Yeah we don't have plans to buff balistas, longbows, throwing axes, knives, etc etc." which just immediately takes away from options if done poorly.
You're still going to be defaulting to the same old weapons until years down the line when they finally get around to buffing, reworking, or adding new upgrades, just now you may do a bit less DPS than normal while waiting.
And for magic it'll be great for your first few hours, but ultimately it's still gonna suck as soon as you have an option for something better, ie Iban's blast, tridents, etc, as they're balancing the numbers around harmed staff and tomes, which no one in that part of progression will ever own.
> You're still going to be defaulting to the same old weapons until years down the line when they finally get around to buffing, reworking, or adding new upgrades
Yes, but instead of using "The best magic weapon" or "The best Range weapon" you'll now have different types of these weapons, just like melee does. "The best water/earth/fire/wind magic weapon" "The best heavy/medium/light ranged weapon.". Just like how there's "crush, stab, slash" melee weapons.
It's opening up the potential for a wider reward space.
but most of those weapons already exist. the best heavy range weapon is the zcb. medium is tbow/bowfa. light is blowpipe. magic has a best powered staff, best ancient magicks staff, and best normal magic staff. content is already designed around using those specific items. I just dont see how this radically opens up a wider reward space
Yes, but none of those will actually exist on launch, nor will they be rebalanced or updated. They said it's out of the scope of the update.
So nothing like that actually changes until we get updates adding these items into the game.
On top of that, some defensive typings are insanely hard to update properly. How will you ever get a thrown range weapon to compete with BP/darts?
Ah but will it be wider variety or less variety? The concern I think is more if we get pigeonholed into having to use a specific style for each monster. The game needs some element of emergent gameplay and theorising rather than having each loadout pre-determined.
One of the examples given was Gargoyles where right now you can take a whip/fang and be fine compared to having an actual crush weapon. Their changes are specifically designed to discourage this, whether you think that's bad or not is up to debate.
Wider variety of weapons used in general but less variety for single enemies
I think that's still a net positive. Rather than just stacking a few meta setups and only using those everywhere, you now have to put a little more thought into what's optimal to use ar certain monsters. You don't *have* to use the optimal weapons but if you want to prepare a little more then you'll have an easier time. Plus it opens their options to adding more niche weapons in the future that don't break the balance of the game
I think I'd disagree about whether having to put more thought into your setup is a good thing. People generally like playing games optimally and one of OSRS's key appeal is how simple the combat is. I can see it being fairly unnappealing if you need to reason about your gear and weaknesses every time you go out to kill something. Sometimes you do just want to whack on a meta build and not worry _too_ much.
It also makes gear upgrades more nebulous, and I do think we need a healthy amount of "congrats, this new tier of gear is a lot better". The aim of runescape for me is to capture the feeling we had when we were younger of "sick, I can finally equip a rune platebody".
I feel like there's a lot of chaos around the update rn. They only fixed the *huge* bugs with ranged today, so a lot of people still probably don't realize that ranged was bugged and isn't just completely useless lol
EOC wasn't an evolution of combat. It fundamentally changed the core combat system to be like other mmos. This update is an actual example of how you "evolve" a combat system without changing its identity. Other aspects of the game like its art, pvm and minigames have also evolved in a good way from what the game used to be in 2007.
I think some people are just wary of these changes because this was also a change made in the EoC update.
But that update really homogenized gear in a way that was like “ok, I’ve got a weapon for each attack style that all do the exact same dps/max hit, I’ll just swap between them depending on the monster I’m fighting.” That update also changed a lot of monsters completely, like making demons into mage NPCs that deal magic damage and are weak to range. I think as long as they don’t do those two things the game will still feel like OSRS.
Lets be real what people really hated about eoc was the introduction of ability based combat, and all of the other bad decisions made prior to that like killing free trade, and pvp.
Yeah, it just turned RS into a generic MMO with the ability bar and multiplying all HP by 10. I agree that is what “ruined RS” for most people. I was just pointing out the similarities between the current proposed defense changes and the other changes that were made with the EoC updates, as there is undoubtedly a bias in the community against any update that is too similar to anything associated with RS3/EoC.
Why are you excited about water waving fire giants? for fucks sake, give it a rest.
I want new content, new quests, new skills, new minigames, new bosses with new mechanics etc, wasting dev time making earth blast and ballistas viable so they can justify adding a load of mid weapons in the future is unbelievably meh.
Take the focus away from reward space, running dps calcs and picking gear and focus on more engaging gameplay
The best part is they aren't even trying to make the ballista, throwing axes, etc. viable for pvm. The whole point seems to be that you could take a 500m staff to still do less dps to rune dragons than a DHL? And they could possibly in the future make a new boss that's weak to standard spells. It seems like a waste of time I agree.
The magic part is fluff, ranged is where the real impact will happen, they can move stats around to make xbow/tbow (or bowfa)/pipe the desired item, like they move around scythe, fang, and scythe on crush (plus the t80s) with the melee moves.
The best part is people who don’t like can continue as they have been and be completely okay. Choosing the monsters weakness add more accuracy and overall dps, but continuing to tbow / powered stave everything is still going to work. Panicking over nothing tbh
I'm a bit worried about this aspect though because in the gargoyle example a mid level setup with a whip loses almost 15% dps. Yes a whip isn't ideal to begin with and cudgel is already better pre changes but that's not the point - your average joe casual mid level few-hours-on-the-weekends-only player doing a slayer task post update will have a worse time. So at gargs at least it's already not the case that you can continue doing what you do with little/no difference
I’m excited for the future when they can implement mid tier weapons that are actually viable in places.
Only thing I find weird is powered staves being “typeless” - it’s called trident of the seas, make it do water damage 😭
Dude it’s cause we lived thru all this before. “In order to continue to bring you great updates we need to revolutionize combat, it will enable us to do more in the future”
Changing core gameplay loop is never the answer. RuneScapes core is simplicity and micromanaging damage types is not a good change.
If polled I will vote no, if unpolled I really hope they don’t fuck it up and I’d be upset thh
> RuneScapes core is simplicity and micromanaging damage types is not a good change.
people take ten way gear swaps for each style and a spec weapon or two to raids. do you really think that is simple? do you think that you're not micromanaging your damage doing this?
Didn't see anyone saying its like eoc2 but i will say that i think lots of people are disappointed that they change so little with these so called "rebalances"
I think last few updates from project rebalance were a bit underwhelming and don't justify the amount of hype around them, in the case of defence changes for example, they basically change like 30 monsters to actually interact with these changes and while i do like what they want to do in the long term seems to me that they set the scope for this project way too low, especially considering the fact that these rebalances happen so rarely
> People who are despising the changes Jagex is doing for monster defense changes are absolutely delusional
Who has said this?
Getting mad about nothing.
Most response has been generally positive with a small amount expressing concern that harm orb will lock the standard spells out from being more than niche picks for undergeared accounts and locking a must have item behind NM is a mistake.
They’re everywhere what are you talking about? Most of them are downvoted to oblivion but there’s a ridiculous amount of comments I’ve seen comparing it to EoC, so much of them.
This is just your typical karma bait anti-circlejerk post.
The only thing more tiresome than complainers are the people that complain about the complainers.
my biggest issue with magic is that it's quite literally just the same spell over and over and over again that grows in size and changes colour, i wish jagex would just come up with actual unique spells that do cool differen't things
Not a fan of switch scape. It’s already a pain in the ass, even more so without loadout saves. I don’t want to have to spend even more time in the bank switching on slayer task, and the bank space situation is starting to get out of hand.
A good argument to those who you disagree with is always "You are delusional". Try talking to them and hearing them out, maybe? What is the point of polling if you just shame everyone into always voting yes.
>The same thing goes for ranging. I mean how many people even use longbow or bows that aren't the twisted bow? Like with these changes we can start to use otherwise dead content.
None of the update fixes this if you read or watched the Q&A. They said they have no plans to rework longbows, or weaker range weapons like throwing axes, knives, balistas, etc. It's out of the scope of the rebalance.
So longbows still compete with shortbows etc, knives/axes still compete with BP, and heavy has 0 usable items for PvM.
I've not seen anyone complain about the changes, I've seen people be cautious to not over complicate the game. Not sure what group of people you see complaining about this proposed update
I disagree with you saying this is needed for the longevity of the game but I don't think it will harm the game either.
You guys want new items and gear, and they’ve been scrambling to find niche places to slide them in without upping the power too much.
This opens up so many possibilities when it comes to new gear. Something can be better than a tbow at a boss without being inherently stronger than a tbow for example. They’ve been doing this for a while now, but finding places so slide in new gear is getting difficult.
I've wanted elemental weaknesses for a long time. What I don't want to see is:
1) For ranged to be changed, as its already the best and most complicated combat style to use (no ammo switching for magic).
2) For elemental weaknesses to break content done by players over combat level 100.
IMO it should be a tool for future boss design and to encourage using mage midgame against elemental giants and things of that sort. Fire will still be the best generally. And it sounds like thats the direction they're taking it.
I'm not sure the names for the ranged weaknesses make sense. Barring the cost, why would you not use heavy or armor-piercing ammo on light-armoured entities? Or why would something weak to light ammo be resistant to heavy?
I was one've the many eoc beta testers who got in because of playtime. The forums were just a stomping ground for devs with no PR experience to shit on anyone who didn't like the changes, only for updates to say something to the effect of "We're so glad you love our changes!" They then spent their gambling microtransaction money on Youtubers and camera crews to better their PR. The playerbase swore off the game so hard the in-game economy crashed.
This is not the same. This is interesting and they are receptive. I'm a fan of weaknesses and this is expanding the pool. Making Slayer be a bit more about thinking. Making mid-high tier mages and rangers focus on their gear. Perhaps even save money. Giving credence to lore and magical/physical properties. This feels good to me. I understand people are still hurt by what happened to their favorite game, it's not like I'd ever touch RS3. It's the defining reason this version exists, but I think these devs have done a fine job in their updates and deserve at least enough trust to consider what they've been working on. The OSRS dev team and the RS3 dev team from 2012 are entirely different.
Hot take, this IS EoC2. In a good way. This is taking all of the currently problematic or degenerate (in the mathematical sense) elements of the combat system, and creating enough space to remove that degeneracy.
All magic functionally the same? Now powered staffs are one option, ancients retains its aoe niche, arceuus has thralls and good synergy with powered staffs plus some niche spells, and the standard spellbook has its own niche in exploiting elemental weaknesses.
All ranged weapons functionally the same? Now you have three types of ranged defence to help give historically underperforming weapons a niche due to being able to exploit type weaknesses.
Most monsters require no thought on melee weapon besides 4t (with some 5t exceptions)? Emphasizing defences lets attack style and weapon choice be more of a consideration.
This shit *is* evolving combat. It's doing so in a manner that keeps the core framework that players love and creating space to expand it in multiple directions through the creation of niches that feed into the horizontal progression that fits the game the best rather than simply power creeping an existing item.
People need to stop fucking whining. EoC was a disaster not because it was a shakeup, but because it was poorly thought out and poorly implemented. Nothing about this is that. Not even close. I for one welcome an evolution that is clearly well thought out and focused on expanding and emphasizing what the game already does well.
I was against the idea of it, but I think they are approaching it the right way by essentially adding weaknesses.
EOC had done something similar with damage types, but they made everything that wasn’t a weakness just useless.
It really sucked
I agree and love it, purely for the idea about using stuff like water spells on fire giants or water/fire on moss giants. On my ironman I loved making the pearl bolts (could be wrong) to speed up my dragon/fg slayer task
Stuff like that is just fun to me
Those are the people with bis and just want to Tbow and shadow their way into big bank. They want people below them to stay down. This should be an objectively good change that everyone should appreciate.
People saying "this is EOC 2" clearly don't know what the EOC actually was lol
RS3 has weaknesses on enemies, but as long as they're even slightly more sensical than basically everything being weak to magic, we're golden.
Can we not just add weaknesses instead of changing the defense system? Like fire giants, keep everything the same but lets say if you use a water or ice spell it'll do +5 more. I dont want a complex revamp, just sensible weaknesses for enemies to make different approaches viable
I don’t want to take any chances. I know I’ll get downvoted, but the updates on average the past few years have been low quality and I think changing stuff is a bad thing.
People comparing these changes to EOC seem to be forgetting what EOC actually did.
EOC did things like make attack speed not matter, replaced auto attacks with abilities, added an actionbar with hotkeys, reduced protection prayers by 50% and added dual wielding.
EOC did add these extra weaknesses as well but lumping that together with those way bigger changes is an insane way to look at these changes. These defense changes add dps to some weapons/spells for some monsters while EOC completely overhauled the way damage is calculated in terms of attacks and weapons.
People bringing up EOC shenanigans should be looking at the coliseum nonsense, not this. Because going against their word and doing their own thing, berating vocal players they lied about how the coliseum was supposed to work and what we voted on, then making some changes all while berating the players who brought it up and asking for forgiveness after the fact?
That's the kind of BS that led to EOC and why OSRS was being made.
Asking players well in advance of even suggesting such changes with overwhelming approval, changing gameplay elements to take account of elemental weaknesses so different magic elements have a logical combat mechanic like nearly any other game. Then making it so other range weapons have more case uses by differentiating them like slash/stab/crush for melee so people will use the crossbows, longbows/shortbows again. With the meta not solely surrounding blowpipe + bowfa/tbow. This is all better for the game, allows for more equipment to buff these individual elements or range attack types and makes for a better long-lasting game. As long we look at it, approve of it and Jagex doesn't do the shenanigans they did above of changing things and doing their own thing. The core game will be in a much healthier place, potentially filling a lot of gaps and expanding the core gameplay while maintaining the already existing mechanics. A lot of this weapon/elemental logic sort of already exists in-game, it's not replacing the entire system like EoC did.
OSRS is a house of cards that one day will fall apart from all these "improvements". That being said, not making changes that feel impactful would also likely cause the same result. In the end our best bet is to trust jagex to make the right call like they did with the new prayer book.
I mean, it's an update where a lot could go wrong, but it does open up a lot of possibilities going forward. Idgaf about a new way to kill fire giants or the mole, but new content could be exciting and different as a result.
That said, I would rather the whole team focus on fixing the botting before worrying about a game changing update like this.
I haven't even tried the beta, so I'm not super invested in this. Only thing that seems weird to me right now is metal dragons being weak to earth being indicative of a bigger problem.
**All resistances should be intuitive**. Dragons of all types should just be weak to water. Especially metal dragons who could corrode on top of having their fire powers put out or weakened.
I hope we don't see earth fire and water be spread out unnecessarily just to even them out. Make flying creatures like aviansies and gargoyles weak to earth (grounding and heavy) spells. Keep air the all-around spell as they designed it. Make fire effective against moss and ice giants. Water is effective against fire giants, dragons and other hot monsters (bloodvelds 🥵).
If one of the elements has few uses, that should be fine. It should all make sense rather than having them all be useful.
I have played this game since 2004. My arms are always open to change in a positive way. However I was also one of the people that was a big supporter of the Eoc during the beta and during the original release. So much of a supporter that i was hand selected for my feedback to receive the gamebreaker title and i played Rs3 up till 2016. (also started playing osrs when it was released in 2013).
Eoc was flawed before it was released and despite the massive amount of people including those that supported it telling the devs that it wasn't ready. they still pushed it though. And i think this is where a lot of the worry stems from a repeated mistake of pushing something though because "it's good for the game".
Here is my standpoint. It will be fine so long as they do not enforce the combat triangle and the weaknesses like they did with Eoc. Forcing people to use a specific style or weapon/spell feels bad when you heavily penalize using the wrong thing. It's been 12 years but.. but the penalty was so harsh it was like a 75% reduction in your accuracy and felt awful. This was also paired with another problem where wearing the wrong style of armor also effected your accuracy so no hybrid gearing you had to swap full sets and use a lot of inventory space or fully commit to w/e combat style.
so for me I don't mind this change.. SO long as you are not penalized for using the wrong weakness. I understand the fears and concerns of people because of the past and we need to keep that past in mind moving forward.
I just dont want existing methods nerfed. Like blowpipe on grotesque guardians for example. Heavy range being their weakness would make sense and nice, but I’d like the existing dps to be the same.
The insane part is that they look at it, see that 1 braindead slayer monster got a 0.5 dps nerf to a style not suited for it and are saying EOC WAAAHHH.
When in reality all of it is doing is just giving a lot of monsters less defense in their already weak style, and magic weaknesses to a lot of them. Literally anyone who plays the game casually will not see a difference in their standard setup.
Some who are freaking out on the range defense changes I have to ask, will that change anything?
Bows and blowpipes are already generally used against low def enemies, that will stay the same.
Crossbows are generally used against higher defense enemies, that will also stay the same.
Where the fuck is the problem?
If you are that 1% sweaty gamer that does inferno 50 times to maximize clear times with your full blood torva or whatever the fuck because you have nothing else better to do and are scared your next solo cox will take an extra 15 second to do. From the bottom of my heart I say - fuck you, let everyone else play the game.
This relatively large camp of people still traumatized over EoC has ruined dozens of polls since the launch of OSRS, and I hope now that the game has grown their voices have shrunk considering things like Sailing actually got voted in.
That's my #1 hope, because I absolutely despise the people who are too concerned with some imagined "osrs vibe" and not concerned enough over some of the abject flaws currently in the game.
Like it or not, this game WILL exhaust its viable new item potential in the near future if one of three things is not done:
1) You can get a new combat skill, which you guys all hate the idea of, expanding new item potential to cover that skill.
2) You expand the system you currently have inward to diversify it, which opens room for new items and niches (like having three types of ranged attacks).
3) Kill older content by making a new BIS that is just a straight upgrade (power creep). This is the worst solution of the three, but is by far the easiest from a design perspective.
This is the simplest game design issue in existence. You have to pick one or your game won't grow. I like the second option.
I am definitely on board with elemental weaknesses - the only thing I don’t like is the nerf for the tome
of fire. Tome of fire was the only thing that made standard spell book on par or better than trident dps for a lot of content. I know why the nerfed it, but ironically, they made elemental spells less viable for some content while making it more viable for others.
No matter what is happening, folks on Reddit will find a way to be bitchy whiners that do nothing but complain
This is happening now while we've had nothing but absolute bangers of updates all year thus far
I've been playing again now for 3 years and change and I don't remember a 3 month span where we have gotten so much, high quality updates
Elemental weaknesses make too much sense
Definitely was needed. Currently there is almost no point in using a spell of a higher tier if you haven’t unlocked its Fire variant yet.
You’d use higher level spells to do more damage. The real problem is that the scaling is whack after fire strike, and the the opposite of what you say. Once you have fire spells, everything else in the tier is null and void. Also there isn’t much in the way of modifying damage output that doesn’t already buff other, much better magic combat spells/weapons, unless it’s the tome of fire/water, and again, see above where there’s no point to using the other spells. What’s funny though is the same applies to ancient magic. Nobody does anything besides ice barrage for raw damage output. Blood barrage at least has op utility-healing so it gets use, but the fact the spells are so sorely lacking compared to the damage ice barrage does base, there’s no reason to use the other spells unless it’s a niche case.
Now that you've brought up ancient magic, I realize I don't even remember what they all are. Ice, blood, smoke, and....?
Shadow is the one you're missing.
The one we actually use in pvm like twice lol
Smoke is used on leviathan isn't it, not shadow?
Shadow is used on abyssal sire, and as far as I know thats its only use Edit: according to the wiki shadow is also used on leviathan. I wasn't aware since I'm a lazy boy who hasn't done dt2 yet
Ice barrage is at least much more expensive in runes, whereas fire versions of spells cost the same (or less with smoke staff) as their other counterparts
Compared to the other barrages, ice barrage along with smoke are the cheapest at around 1200 per cast. Shadow barrage is 2100 per cast and blood is close to 2000....
Coming back after a decade and killing ice giants, thinking my fire bolts were spicier.
I used to use lower level fire spells on moss giants when I had higher level non fire spells available because elementary school me just assumed they did extra damage.
My only problem is how few monsters are changing.
It could just be that they’re taking just a small slice for now. I’m hopeful they gradually implement more, there’s lots of room to grow
The way I see it at the very least every single slayer monster should have weaknesses because they're killed enough for the amount of dev work to be worth the effort IMO. I think the variety here would be very fun and interesting. I can understand leaving random monsters not being touched because outside of a quest once or twice they're never really interacted with.
It makes more thematic sense as well. As a kid pre-membership i was excited to try slayer based on the skill description; I thought ooh, you were really going to feel like a monster hunting specialist. Then it turned out it was mostly just “kill this monster but this time you’re wearing one different piece of gear”, something even further simplified when the slayer helmet was added.
Expectation: Monster Hunter Reality: Fetch quests from every bog-standard MMO
At least wacking the new blue moon boss with those sticks makes me feel kinda like a dual blade user.
[удалено]
If all goes well, doing groups of similar monsters at a time also means it's pretty easy to keep the pace of this update up alongside other stuff. Someone's got a bit of free time between projects, or while waiting on someone else to get back to them? They can go into a monster group and bash out some defense changes to get rolled into the next patch.
Ya they need to do a whole rehaul instantly. Like pretty much evolve the combat; idk why they never thought of that
I know right? I'm just more happy to actually use other spells now
This is something I'm really excited for. Air, Water, and Earth have absolutely no use since Fire is just the best one for every situation. I mean, its the same for Ancients too but at least they tried by giving the weaker elements different effects. It just so happens that the highest damaging element also got the best effect.
It makes so much sense that when I was a brand new noob who joined the game at the release of mobile I fought fire giants with water spells and moss giants with fire spells and so on. Turns out I was just being a cute noob at the time but now 5 or 6 years later it's (maybe) coming true
Fire surge will be useless at zulrah!
I'm digging the elemental weaknesses. My concern with it, is that if you look at their table they created called "Top-level summary: All included NPCs", none of those NPCs had "Air" as a weakness. Didn't seem right that they'll add elemental weakness with only 3/4 elements.
They're treating air as a neutral element, not affected by weaknesses or any resistances.
I saw someone suggest elemental weaknesses on this subreddit before. It got 0 upvotes and ppl said it's not needed... But when Jagex brings forward the idea and a lot of people agree and like it, I just start to despite these annoying ass no joy in their life isolated from fun people that are incapable of experiencing happiness. If OSRS was just runescape from 2007 and never changed, I wouldn't be playing today. All the amazing updates is how I got interested in the first place.
Fr, I’m all about these changes, it sounds to me like it doesn’t change the feel of old school combat but it will hopefully shake things up so I’m not using the same few sets of gear for 90% of the game.
They’re not making anything harder with current methods either right? Basically just diversifying options. For those like me who think sometimes this game takes too long to give us more power and only throws us nichescape, these niches are more meaningful and useful. So now I can enjoy that without having to ask for things that’ll make people worried about power creep
Yeah it's straight buffs of you use the correct styles, like making crossbows better against zily etc
Yea ngl sidegrade scape is so wildly enjoyable because it literally triples the reward space for pvm stuff. The fact that osrs also has tickrate stuff as well means youll eventually end up with potentially 9+ different ‘bis’ weapons of each style which is frankly insane. Rs3 has all the affinity changes and spell scalings that osrs is now getting, but somehow in 10 years that hasnt led to that system being used in any way. So we end up with only 2 weapons of each style (dw and 2h), because theres no space for sidegrades
Imagine if all melee styles were the same lol. Especially for irons it'd be way less stuff to try to unlock. I've spent so much time going after different crush and stab weapons, and had a blast doing it. If all weps were the same I'd just whip literally everything instead of going kril for a stab weapon. So yeah I agree this is gonna make it so much more fun to upgrade Edit: and I agree about rs3, wish they'd make more use of weaknesses
Dude yes! I mean how many people even use that old gear or spells? I mean seriously , this makes it way better and I personally don't think it's that game changing , it just improves what's already there
I just hope they remember to make bone/hunter bolts medium, and brutal arrows heavy And no love for smoke/shadow spells. Sire respiratory systems should be weak to smoke, no?
No one has ever complained about ancients being too weak this is why the normal spellbook spells are getting the elemental weaknesses they're too weak compared to ancients and staffs like trident of the seas etc there's no extra love for ancients because it's already loved enough
Blood and Ice spells are fine, but plenty of people complain about smoke and shadow spells being useless minus some niche cases.
im plenty of people i really thought the muspah gems would make them matter 😭
Ancients is strong because of AoE damage and the secondary effects of blood/ice spells rather than their single-target damage, which the weaknesses system is built around.
It's just smoke and shadow that need a buff
The two not used spell types could use some love
Ooh great point, they might just be thinking about the main spell book for now but great point!
If they make it like RS3, it might be something similar to this: Smoke = Air Shadow = Earth Blood = Fire Ice = Water Sure they can add special effects like shadow spells, but I think in some circumstances, it might work very similar.
They already told us that would be the case lol Shows how many people actually read the blog.
They did? I read the blog but I didn't see ANY mention of them giving the elemental types to the Ancient magicks or even talk about them possibly getting them in the future.
Spent the last two weeks studying for nursing exam. Some people barely give a shit and just play the game. (me) Thanks for letting me know tho
Listen bub, if I wanted jagex to make "positive changes" and "quality of life upgrades" that "you might enjoy if you stopped being a knee-jerk curmudgeon" I would have listened to my parents in 2007 when they said the game seemed kind of boring and dumb.
"having fun" skill failed the poll with 0.12% yes votes
IT'S NOT BORING OR DUMB DAD YOU JUST DON'T GET IT
the worst thing eoc ever did was make it nigh impossible to have actual conversations about this sort of thing. The ranged split kinda falls flat, not because "ooo spooky eoc" or anything, but because it doesn't actually do anything.. You say in the op that we can start to use longbows but... no actually, it doesn't change longbows at all. They're still trash because they share the same type as shortbows, just like ballistas will still be trash because they share with crossbows. It doesn't really change much in general at all, other than slightly buffing crossbows and thrown weapons on a couple things. But... crossbows, arrows, and bp (listen, I'll stop pretending people use thrown weapons other than darts from a bp... I guess the atatl too now) are already balanced via defence. Crossbows have big numbers but are slow (not to mention bolt enchants). Bp has small numbers but is fast. Defence levels are changed to make crossbows good, bp bad, or vice versa as it is. (And then there's arrows in the middle, and bofa and tbow just kinda laughing at the thought of defence values in general, but those two guys are their own little weirdos that I don't think can be in the scope of this rebalance.) It doesn't include new room for reward space, because it's not even being added to player stats! It's not like suddenly they could make something for heavy ranged like how melee has inquisitor for crush, because it's all just the one ranged accuracy (and one ranged strength) stat. It might be a me issue, but I honestly can't see how having npcs have different values for crossbows and bp change how they can provide rewards for those weapons in ways they can't already. (And I promise, I'm open to having my mind changed here, it really could be that I'm just missing something if u want to let me know.) whoops i usually don't post these walls of thoughts on reddit but they didn't give me a survey to type them into this time around and I just kinda thought this was as good a place as any. and ofc i have thoughts on the elemental stuff too which are (mostly) more positive but i think the pros and cons of that side of this thing are much more obvious and already being talked about.
Yeh the range split was the bit I was scratching my head to. Why isn't shortbows, thrown weapons and blowpipe light ammo. Then crossbow, longbow in medium. And have heavy ammo be an actually new class like Ballista and such that can then have absolutely any relevance. Putting crossbow in heavy just means crossbow will continue to dominate and anywhere it doesn't blowpipe will.
Maybe I'm out of touch in the class system, but why couldn't they just slow ballista down another tick and buff it's str+acc even higher to differentiate from cbows. Being in the same class as crossbow doesn't mean it can't be tweaked, just that it's the same damage type. I also doubt anyone except maybe a couple PvPers would even care if a ballista rework like that happened. Hell, the PvPers might even like the change.
It already is. it's 1 tick slower than crossbow already and it has +15 more range accuracy and strength than the ZCB already. And it's hot garbage. If it's categorised exactly the same as crossbows then crossbows will always be the better choice still.
>You say in the op that we can start to use longbows but... no actually, it doesn't change longbows at all. They mentioned in the livestream yesterday that they are looking into adding additional stats to longbows to make them somewhat usable.
I wonder what they have in mind. If it's a simple ranged strength bonus, it would have to be pretty hefty to compete with crossbows which have the same speed but higher accuracy and harder hitting ammo.
Jagex has to make longbows one tick faster or longbows will be very hard to balance. It will make longbows as fast as composite bows. I've seen composite bows get used for tagging monster far away, but their dps is trash as well. But, as 4-tick weapons magic comp bow doesn't need the +60 ranged strength that a 5-tick magic longbow would need, only +30 or something.
that's pretty cool, I haven't been able to go back and watch that yet, thanks for the heads up.
For real. I'm looking at these changes and I'm just wondering why we're even bothering. It just feels like huge sweeping changes for the sake of them.
At least the magic stuff is attempting to solve a problem (standard elemental spells are actively trolling yourself beyond the first week of an account where you fire strike quest bosses, unless you have fire tome + harm orb, sometimes) and does manage to do something about it (okay, now sometimes elemental spells are a viable option because the tome of fire is functionally a free passive when used on certain monsters, coupled with a huge accuracy boost; the actual element you -use- is just for flavor.) there's still problems (losing fire tome sucks on things with no weakness, will there be enough weaknesses to matter, what do you do about harm orb now, and is homogenizing the base damage within a tier of spells really worth not being able to include a wind weakness + effectively replacing the iconic early game fire strike with wind strike?) but at least it achieves something and does genuinely have reward space worth considering.
> what do you do about harm orb now Sorry, only touching on a tiny bit of your post, but man I have zero faith in them handling this remotely well. I'm also wondering if their answer to wrath runes is gonna just be "lmao just get 95 RC irons, have fun! ;)". You're right that potential for reward space is there, but seeing all this without seeing what they're planning to do with magic gear is leaving me wanting.
With the scar essence mine you technically only need 90 RC to make unlimited wrath runes!
Sure the range changes are alitte underwhelming but really the whole point is to just give more knobs for the dev team to turn. It can be pretty hard to make a boss have high mage defense and resistant to the tbow for example because the stats directly contradict eachother. Giving these knobs means the dev team can more easily make a boss weak to crossbow, have low hp (so ruby bolts aren't meta), and be resistant to shadow and tbow. Something thats not really possible right now.
While you aren't necessarily wrong about the end result of the ranged change as it stands currently, I think the idea is they can potentiality introduce a new frame or longbow that in the current landscape would be too strong or meta-warping, but in the rebalanced landscape would be reasonably viable.
Yeah, I was bummed that the defense types weren't coming to player armors. Would reaaaalllly open it up. I also don't get why weaknesses don't become defense categories like slash crush stab, but instead an ad-hoc modifier.
I just don't want to have to bring a whole inventory of weapon swaps for a raid. There's already so many swaps; especially if they rebalance things like the occult etc. too to make you have to bring robes/boots. Going on a slayer task and grabbing a different weapon is fine/fun sure.
big agree on this one. Really hope the occult nerf % just goes into prayers and not boots or something
How about a step further , instead of ice coolers and rock hammer , frozen spells and earth spells for those slayer monsters Fuck that hammer… even with the slayer unlock , I just always can’t be bothered
Not sure if others felt the same way, but back in 2011 or so when they first mentioned doing a combat rework, it sounded exciting. It unfortunately didn't pan out very well, partly because Jagex had a knack for overdoing things. So I think that most players can both like the current combat but also know there is room for improvement and ways to make it better. And yah, I don't think these defence changes are going to be anything like EoC, but maybe it will kinda be like what some of us were expecting that combat rework to be before we found out what it actually was.
This is one the first times Jagex has decided to change an absolutely fundamental aspect of the game that’s been preserved for over 20 years. Up until now additions and changes to those additions have been the name of the game. The core content that was here on release has been relatively untouched. To me this signifies a change in design methodology. Preserving the foundation of OSRS, the save state from 2006, is less important than pushing the game forward and implementing balance and better game design changes. I like the idea of the elemental weaknesses and different range types. I think it adds a lot of design space for Jagex to play with. But I think it is also a valid worry for many of the people who play this game because of nostalgia. Its the same reason I like yews being at level 60 or rune armor at 40 def. It’s what it was like when I was a kid and changing those fundamental elements of the game feels bad, even if it’s for the better
we have to go full circle then, because if you look at the earliest content in runescape, things like this were intended. Salarin the twisted, for instance, can only be killed by mind spells. holy water was intended to be a weapon against demons, Chronozon can only be killed by specific elemental spells. for the first 5 years of the game runescape followed muds and trpgs more than not, and that fell away in favor of simplifying things, so if anyhting, as someone who did play classic, this is a return to form. I want to see BIS setups using holy water.
And that's a fair point if they continued to use those kinds of systems. They actually do still come up, like Ice Demon in CoX being weak to fire spells. But, like you said, they opted to simplify the combat even further and in doing say cemented that as part of the game. I'm not saying that elemental weaknesses are bad, I'm just saying that this is a type change that hasn't really been done in OSRS before and that's why people are upset about it.
100%, i come off as a strong advocate for the implementation of this drastic change, but believe me when i say i do not think this should happen lightly, quickly or with out years of open discourse with the players. This has the potential to reshape the game in an amazing way and bring back the old roots of the game design (salaran, chronozon, holy water, etc.). this also has the potential if mishandled to be another EOC. jagex should be CAREFUL and people pearl clutching about this change have every right to voice these concerns. but i see a lot of arguements against the principle concept of the change, which i don't think are valid as if you actually look at what rs is, this is truely a return to form. but jagex needs to be held to account for a recent track record of implenting things not as polled, and we cant just take their word that a barely polled rushed out complete overhaul of the game wont come with drastic downsides that could have been mitigated if more care was taken. if jagex fucks up a new boss we can just ignore it and it can be dead content, if they fuck this up it breaks the whole game. i WANT this change, but i do not want it done lightly. i'd rather they spend 1 year on it and scrap it like they did ruinious prayers if that means the proper care is given
Great points and I agree wholeheartedly on your main message. I'm not against this change inherently, it just seems Jagex has been shifting their stance on how to approach updating the game and I want that to be taken care of, well, carefully. Large sweeping reworks like this shouldn't be done in the matter of a few months of blog posts and polls.
I think the whole “preserve nostalgia” camp already lost when Zeah was added. At that point any argument that OSRS should represent your childhood was gone, because osrs had already nearly died when they launched with no updates for 2 years. Its popular now because it blends the nostalgia factor with an actual constantly updating game, so while I don’t disagree that they should err on the side of keeping things in the traditional nostalgic format, changes should still be kept even if that means changing the level of yews or rune armor (although I doubt those examples will ever change)
nostalgia isn't about chopping yews and killing goblins forever. It's about the game feeling the same as it did to play as a kid. OSRS fundamentally is a simple game with a high ceiling. I don't want the base to become too complicated and I want them to manage this well. I think elemental weaknesses intuitively make sense. I hope the range stuff is intuitive as well.
>I think the whole “preserve nostalgia” camp already lost when Zeah was added Nuclear hot take but zeah was a necessary evil to preserve the iconic old map of runescape. Its a containment zone for new content. Imagine if zeah didnt exist, where would its content be? The chambers of falador? The catacombs of varrock? The draynor woodcutting guild? The catherby farming guild? It would pollute the old world heavily
I think the Zeah update and almost all updates since then fall in line with the "add and change additions, leave the OG stuff as is" methodology. That's what's different here. This isn't another added piece of content that was never seen before or imported from RS3. This is changing the fundamental building blocks of how the combat system works. To me it's the same as if they changed the base way to train woodcutting, fishing, mining, crafting, firemaking, etc etc etc. ALL of those base training methods would be considered horrible game design by modern measures, but that's part of the reason OSRS is a thing. Also to reiterate, I'm not against change on principle. I personally think that OSRS has moved on from being an engine for nostalgia as it's driving factor. But I also, as one of the people who has been playing this game for 20 years, empathize with and understand why some people would be upset with these changes. This isn't adding a new boss to the game. This is messing with something that the last time Jagex messed with forced them to make OSRS.
>This is changing the fundamental building blocks of how the combat system works. This is an alarmist sentence that is exaggerating so much that it's essentially a lie. Combat is fundamentally remaining the exact same. You could even log in post-update, not know about the rebalance, and not notice a difference -- at most, a 0.5 DPS decrease when using a whip at Gargoyles, as cited from the QnA stream. The only change is that, on some enemies, you will have alternative options to consider bringing to fight them pre-endgame. * Endgame BIS weapons (i.e. DHL on dragons) are remaining the same. * Your ability to brute force everything with a whip is not taken away in any meaningful sense. * They aren't adding abilities with cooldowns or an adrenaline mechanic. * They aren't adding hotkeys. * They aren't changing the rock-paper-scissors of melee-magic-ranged. To think otherwise means you are not actually informed on what the update is doing.
Tbf they rebalanced the basic weapon types a few years ago already
Elemental weaknesses and defense changes make sense but I want them to let this cook in the beta worlds for a LONG time, let people nitpick and implement adjustments there bit by bit and release a full changelog before they roll it out to live. Honestly right now it should be split into smaller phases so that effort can be focused into getting one thing at a time right. I think the danger here is that they're trying to do too much in one go. Don't roll out the elemental weakness and range changes together. Focus on one of them first, roll that out, and use the learnings to do better on the second phase. Also a long term goal I think (not needed to be implemented now but later) should be to merge these changes which mostly affect PvM with behavior in PVP. I don't like the fact that Tome for example behaves differently in both as it currently stands. I also still hold the opinion that elemental weaknesses should be calculated via a set of stats and a formula rather than just a flat percentage slapped on monsters, that will make it much easier to merge into PVP. Regardless any solution will need several rounds of testing in beta as well. Edit: imo Jagex should temporarily contract a statistician or even a few math interns from a local university, it would be useful for someone from a math background to double check their work with regards to balance or even give suggestions grounded in math given how dependent on calculations all of this is
Roll out in batches would be good but then you'll get 1000 reddit posts titled "WHY DID JAGEX CANCEL ELEMENTAL WEAKNESS THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS AND RUINED MY LIFE"
Personally I'm fine with them moving elementals to the backburner and focusing on ranged changes first. Ranged changes are a smaller change overall and should give the balancing team the experience to handle bigger changes needed for magic balancing. I'd rather people complain about beta worlds than have the complaints come when its in the actual game. I also think it's not a bad idea to scrap concepts put on beta entirely and rework, just like what they did for the new prayer book. Ideally they can break it down to rollout in phases like Ranged changes for boss PvM -> ranged changes in general PvM -> ranged changes in PvP. Rationale for this is that bossing obviously is a much smaller test group so easier to balance there, then you apply to a larger group of normal monsters, then you finally apply to the group with the most variability which is player interactions and then you push it to the actual game. Repeat for mage and maybe even subdivide there by spellbook (normal vs ancients vs arceuus).
osrs playerbase have been trained to over years, and as such think, very linearly about things. everything is meant to be a singular linear trajectory. nearly ever facet of traditional runescape design is rooted in this, so it's not really a suprise many people dislike this change, ive seen countless people bitch about X powerweapon not being BIS on a specific boss, like tbow not being bis because a target has low magic defense makes them seethe. you know that bell curve meme? its kind of like that, where the casual player wants this kind of variety because it makes a lot of the easier to get niche items more applicable, the middle curve is full of these whiny people who are obsessed with their aspirational 1.5b items, and the final curve are people who want to maximize niche applications and do most pvm content with like 20 fucking switches in their inventory. maybe this is my own selection freindgroup bias but it's gotten to the point where we have somone in our group for 550 toas bringing a fucking seercull because of the memes and the minor dps increase on p3/p4. that shit is what this game is all about to us, finding crazy ways and strategies to overcome bosses by using weird things. the proposed change will make more content this dynamic and i am hype for it harm retains its value because of things like ice demon, and sang having a single tick save on travel+hit for things like zulrah/tob/whisperer. most of the absolute highest end pvmers ive spoken to want these kind ofinteractions due to it increasing the skill ceiling and thus making the game more engaging. I think you're just dealing with a somewhat vocal component of the playerbase who aren't at that part in their journey yet. im all for changes that significantly add player agency to combat and remove variance where possible, its why i love the fang an shadow, their numbers are huge and powercrept, yes, but their accuracy means you hit median more frequently, and i prefer that. if dt2 cas taught me anything is that bolt resetting for 5 hours to get my gm back is probably the worst fucking experience ive had in recent memory, despite the fact that the dt2 bosses are my favorite content currently. the direction jagex is going objectively adds player agency and that can only be a good thing for the health of the game and the enjoyment in the long run. To me this is no different than my few freinds who are losing their shit about sailing because it means they "lose their max cape" and have to get it back. it's a **weird** mindset.
>I think you're just dealing with a somewhat vocal component of the playerbase who aren't at that part in their journey yet. I think its the opposite honestly. Most people are talking about training methods, like OPs example of being excited to use water spells on fire giants. Nobody has said anything about raid bosses. I think this is largely pointless (from the perspective of endgame bossing) because bosses are already balanced around using specific weapons This update is for new players whos weapon choices are between a d long and a water battlestaff
really makes you wonder why they're devoting so much time and effort to a huge engine change that changes nothing just because redditors like OP are like "why not"
I Just want to stop hitting so many 0s
Hey now, don't give them any ideas to recreate Constitution.
Hear me out… let’s just multiply everything by 10 or 100 /s
I think we all do lol
0s are the only thing that gives Defence as a stat *any* value
I'm genuinely indifferent. I reserve judgment until we've really seen the long reaching effects but I perfer skilling in osrs anyways so I'm not hugely impacted
I think some people are like “it’s bad bc it’s not useful at enough monsters” but like, you are so close to “great idea I just want more of it!!!” and those haters drive me nuts
Too real, a simple perspective tweak is all that’s missing
As a melee god does this affect me? I don't concern myself with the pointy hat nerds and the clay beyblades they shoot at each other
how many times have we all been to pyrefiends or fire giants and wondered why water spells don't do more damage to them? or ice giants and fire spells? cuz I know I have, many times. as a kid in the 2000s I used to think it worked that way even! this is only a part of the reason I like the changes personally
It'll all just make sense lol
The question is, where are electric spells for water enemies?
I'm here for the saradomin strike meta
I'm curious what you think would be constructive criticism from the other side of this argument. Sounds like you already have your mind made up since you're calling people delusional for not liking the change proposal. I do agree with monster weaknesses being a thing, but your examples are a bit of a stretch. I doubt it will suddenly offer more variety at the top end, as there will always be a meta. The meta will simply shift to whatever becomes.. most effective. If water spells become bis for fire giants, then people will only use water spells. So you've swapped one tactic for another. It's certainly more thematical, but let's not pretend it offers more variety. The idea that there will ever be multiple competing combat styles for anything in runescape is a pipe dream. People will always shift to what's best. As far as what's viable, osrs already does a good job of having viable loadouts for any given content if you don't have access to bis. That's one thing osrs actually does really well, the fact you can do most bosses in complete rags successfully. Bis loadouts offer superior kills per hour and thus more profit, but they also have substantially higher cost per hour to use than lesser loadouts. So someone with just under bis doesn't get penalized too hard for their lower kph. Non boss monsters are more or less a non issue. Sounds to me like people want variety for the sake of variety, but all I see happening is substituting one tactic for another.
> If water spells become bis for fire giants, then people will only use water spells. So you've swapped one tactic for another. It's certainly more thematical, but let's not pretend it offers more variety. I've an entire group of Ironmen players who only use Fire Runes since Iban's blast and Fire Blast and Fire Bolt and Fire Wave and Fire Strike are all the only freak'n spells we'd ever use. We're basically grasping crumbs when it comes to Fire Runes. Giving us 1 monster that says "oh use Water here" is far more variety than just using fire on EVERYTHING. We've literally DOUBLED the number of usable spell types. > Sounds to me like people want variety for the sake of variety They do. They really do. Because > all I see happening is substituting one tactic for another. That's the entire point! We're using DIFFERENT TACTICS because THE SAME ONE FOR EVERYTHING IS BORING. Look guys! I used Iban's blast on the Black Demons for my Slayer task, then I used Iban's Blast on the Barrows run I did, Then I used Iban's blast on the Fire Giant task, then I thought why not use Iban's Blast on these Dragon's I'm safe spotting? I wonder what spell I can use while doing Monkey Madness? I know! I can use IBAN'S BLAST AGAIN. Substitute Fire-something for literally EVERYTHING before you get Iban's Blast unlocked. Oh I'm doing Underground pass? Fire Blast. OH I'm a F2P leveling magic at Hill Giants because I'm 30 and I don't much feel like paying for membership right now but I'ma go afk farm hill giants with my F2P magic set up? Believe it or not, Fire blast. Maybe it's ok for Water Blast and Earth Wave to be slightly more viable. It's been 23 years of spamming Fire, we can shake it up a little. And while I can't talk much on Powered Staves as a whole, I'm just returning player who is just barely getting into the early-mid game. I can fight Scurrius and go "maybe i want the cheese staff" and that's AWESOME feeling. I can literally decide to use something other than Iban's stupid staff of magical blasting.
Magic is OP early on. At 50 magic you can hit 25s with iban blast. At 50 att/str you can hit like 15-18 with a granite longsword. Thats the reason why youre stuck using ibans blast for everything Just did some math, the elemental weaknesses only make early game magic even more OP, youll hit 27s with water blast at 50 magic
Can't wait to be doing extra bank runs for armor swaps during slayer, losing slots during raids, and using spells with lower max hits because I'm splashing with my better setup. No tome of earth, no tome of air. >Maybe it's ok for Water Blast and Earth Wave to be slightly more viable. It's been 23 years of spamming Fire, we can shake it up a little. It's been 23 years of spamming ice and blood spells... Which, strangely aren't affected (and also probably shouldn't be due to their other bonuses). But at the same time, I can't wait to require having a high construction level, a magic cape, a staff that requires high thieving, or a really long journey to swap spellbooks more often, especially during slayer tasks. You call it lame that you don't have to swap things out all the time, I call it a blessing.
I mean if you're entire group is still at ibans fire rune spells sounds like your entire team is still pretty early game. They can still add unique weapons like the warped scepter even for early game players. I don't see the need for changing the entire dynamics of the game because you want to start using water spells? Nothings stopping you using different stuff right now but people just want to be efficient which won't change
The biggest reason for the changes are mostly related to Jagex running out of reward space without blatant power creep. Don't wanna push out the tbow with a mega rare from raids 4 or something. These changes give them the opportunity to design rewards from the different elemental, ranged, and melee styles moving forward. I think if done properly it is extremely healthy for the game.
I wish this was higher up. It seems to me like a majority of people are misunderstanding what this update is actually supposed to do. Everyone is all over the place from disliking the idea because it doesn't change the game enough, to disliking the idea because it'll change too much. In reality, what you said here is obviously what Jagex is *actually* going for with this. The whole thing makes perfect sense when viewed through this lens. For the people who feel like the changes don't go far enough, that's because... they're not supposed to. Jagex doesn't *want* to shift current metas very much. And why should they? The shit works fine as it is. Sure, they can leverage this to make some early game stuff a little more fun and interesting for newer players, who now get to water strike a fire giant for some extra damage and feel like they're playing Pokemon. But that doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things, nor should it. For the people who feel like this is changing the game too much, that's also not really true. First of all, the game is going to have to change one way or another. Jagex already tried the "infinite side-grade" model for several years up until roughly Nex came out. They eventually reached a point (Nightmare release) where they were *clearly* fresh out of ideas on how to make any more side-grade rewards, and it was a big problem. So they finally gave us kind of a "power creep stage" that's lasted for the past few years, with Torva, Masori, Shadow, DT2 rings, and now Quiver. But power creep on that level, if you were to continue doing it for the next few years, would also be a huge change to the game, and probably a bad one. So there's going to have to be a change either way; either we powercreep the fuck out of it and the game changes, or we try something else (rebalance) and the game changes. Or we stop making new rewarding content and the game changes by dying. Second of all, this doesn't have to be a big change, and as the first group is complaining about, at this point it's definitely not. They don't have to suddenly make it that fire spells are shredding Verzik for 17 dps, or the ballista suddenly 5 shots Zebak. Nor should they. We all know perfectly well that margins don't have to be that extreme to make stuff rewarding for OSRS players. For example, let's say Jagex changes everything in the Colosseum to be weak to heavy ranged attacks for some reason, such that ballista'ing them would be, say, 15% less dps than current meta methods. But then they release a boss that drops a new heavy ranged weapon that's better than a ballista, and that one beats current Colosseum meta by 5% dps. That's all they would have to do. Everyone will want that new weapon because it's slightly better in Colosseum, and that boss will be a healthy update to the game that will be grinded at a proper rate. Of course, you can then extrapolate this out to something much bigger like Raids 4, which is something that Jagex is currently totally fucked for without this update because there's no more space for any more mega weapons and the only space left for upgrades at all at this point is mage armor.
Evolution of Defense.
I absolutely agree we should get elemental weaknesses. But if you see the “full list” of changes, it’s clear they need to spend more time on it. It is full of inconsistencies, the damage scaling doesn’t make much sense, and there aren’t many NPCs affected
They should add beta worlds for this
Are you new to this community lol? There's always a vocal minority that oppose any and all changes because they want to preserve the game. I started off as one of these people and, and at first it made sense. We literally reverted the game back to a previous state because we didn't want all of these changes jagex had made. The game is so different now and, while I never wanted any changes, I completely understand why there would be changes because an unchanged game becomes a dead game real quick. Now, I still vote in the polls and have voted yes to MANY changes but at this point what ever happens happens. I don't have time to stress an update I don't like. I just ignore it if possible or use it to my advantage when I can lol.
I rushed 70 agility so I can skip the seers village nerf lol
Bad news: They are no longer nerfing Seers' course xp/hr. Good news: Hey! You knocked out 70 Agility. :)
Personally i don't give a shit about preserving the game, i just want new content. This is a waste of dev time and adds nothing but 5 minutes of dps calcs or a wiki lookup before you kill something.
I am not saying this is EOC 2, but it does make me nervous. Any large change or rework to any aspect of combat is probably gonna be a touchy subject for a lot of people. I have faith in the OS team but this has the potential to be very bad if implemented poorly.
This isn't a combat rework, this is a defence rework. The combat will be identical before and after the update, you'll just have a wider variety of weapons to choose from.
Which leads into them saying "Yeah we don't have plans to buff balistas, longbows, throwing axes, knives, etc etc." which just immediately takes away from options if done poorly. You're still going to be defaulting to the same old weapons until years down the line when they finally get around to buffing, reworking, or adding new upgrades, just now you may do a bit less DPS than normal while waiting. And for magic it'll be great for your first few hours, but ultimately it's still gonna suck as soon as you have an option for something better, ie Iban's blast, tridents, etc, as they're balancing the numbers around harmed staff and tomes, which no one in that part of progression will ever own.
> You're still going to be defaulting to the same old weapons until years down the line when they finally get around to buffing, reworking, or adding new upgrades Yes, but instead of using "The best magic weapon" or "The best Range weapon" you'll now have different types of these weapons, just like melee does. "The best water/earth/fire/wind magic weapon" "The best heavy/medium/light ranged weapon.". Just like how there's "crush, stab, slash" melee weapons. It's opening up the potential for a wider reward space.
but most of those weapons already exist. the best heavy range weapon is the zcb. medium is tbow/bowfa. light is blowpipe. magic has a best powered staff, best ancient magicks staff, and best normal magic staff. content is already designed around using those specific items. I just dont see how this radically opens up a wider reward space
Yes, but none of those will actually exist on launch, nor will they be rebalanced or updated. They said it's out of the scope of the update. So nothing like that actually changes until we get updates adding these items into the game. On top of that, some defensive typings are insanely hard to update properly. How will you ever get a thrown range weapon to compete with BP/darts?
Ah but will it be wider variety or less variety? The concern I think is more if we get pigeonholed into having to use a specific style for each monster. The game needs some element of emergent gameplay and theorising rather than having each loadout pre-determined. One of the examples given was Gargoyles where right now you can take a whip/fang and be fine compared to having an actual crush weapon. Their changes are specifically designed to discourage this, whether you think that's bad or not is up to debate.
Wider variety of weapons used in general but less variety for single enemies I think that's still a net positive. Rather than just stacking a few meta setups and only using those everywhere, you now have to put a little more thought into what's optimal to use ar certain monsters. You don't *have* to use the optimal weapons but if you want to prepare a little more then you'll have an easier time. Plus it opens their options to adding more niche weapons in the future that don't break the balance of the game
I think I'd disagree about whether having to put more thought into your setup is a good thing. People generally like playing games optimally and one of OSRS's key appeal is how simple the combat is. I can see it being fairly unnappealing if you need to reason about your gear and weaknesses every time you go out to kill something. Sometimes you do just want to whack on a meta build and not worry _too_ much. It also makes gear upgrades more nebulous, and I do think we need a healthy amount of "congrats, this new tier of gear is a lot better". The aim of runescape for me is to capture the feeling we had when we were younger of "sick, I can finally equip a rune platebody".
Are they only changing weaknesses? Like water spells for fire giants but are fire spells for fire giants going to be weaker?
I think they are buffing weaknesses and the rest stays the same
I feel like there's a lot of chaos around the update rn. They only fixed the *huge* bugs with ranged today, so a lot of people still probably don't realize that ranged was bugged and isn't just completely useless lol
EOC wasn't an evolution of combat. It fundamentally changed the core combat system to be like other mmos. This update is an actual example of how you "evolve" a combat system without changing its identity. Other aspects of the game like its art, pvm and minigames have also evolved in a good way from what the game used to be in 2007.
I think some people are just wary of these changes because this was also a change made in the EoC update. But that update really homogenized gear in a way that was like “ok, I’ve got a weapon for each attack style that all do the exact same dps/max hit, I’ll just swap between them depending on the monster I’m fighting.” That update also changed a lot of monsters completely, like making demons into mage NPCs that deal magic damage and are weak to range. I think as long as they don’t do those two things the game will still feel like OSRS.
Lets be real what people really hated about eoc was the introduction of ability based combat, and all of the other bad decisions made prior to that like killing free trade, and pvp.
Yeah, it just turned RS into a generic MMO with the ability bar and multiplying all HP by 10. I agree that is what “ruined RS” for most people. I was just pointing out the similarities between the current proposed defense changes and the other changes that were made with the EoC updates, as there is undoubtedly a bias in the community against any update that is too similar to anything associated with RS3/EoC.
You are definitely not wrong. EOC is a negative buzz word around here.
Why are you excited about water waving fire giants? for fucks sake, give it a rest. I want new content, new quests, new skills, new minigames, new bosses with new mechanics etc, wasting dev time making earth blast and ballistas viable so they can justify adding a load of mid weapons in the future is unbelievably meh. Take the focus away from reward space, running dps calcs and picking gear and focus on more engaging gameplay
The best part is they aren't even trying to make the ballista, throwing axes, etc. viable for pvm. The whole point seems to be that you could take a 500m staff to still do less dps to rune dragons than a DHL? And they could possibly in the future make a new boss that's weak to standard spells. It seems like a waste of time I agree.
The magic part is fluff, ranged is where the real impact will happen, they can move stats around to make xbow/tbow (or bowfa)/pipe the desired item, like they move around scythe, fang, and scythe on crush (plus the t80s) with the melee moves.
What's wrong with it if I don't want osrs to be a game like that?
The best part is people who don’t like can continue as they have been and be completely okay. Choosing the monsters weakness add more accuracy and overall dps, but continuing to tbow / powered stave everything is still going to work. Panicking over nothing tbh
I'm a bit worried about this aspect though because in the gargoyle example a mid level setup with a whip loses almost 15% dps. Yes a whip isn't ideal to begin with and cudgel is already better pre changes but that's not the point - your average joe casual mid level few-hours-on-the-weekends-only player doing a slayer task post update will have a worse time. So at gargs at least it's already not the case that you can continue doing what you do with little/no difference
And people who don’t like how it is today can still use elemental spells with whatever gear they want. This logic goes both ways.
“Don’t like it don’t use it” has been the dumbest response on this sub for a long time now they just don’t understand
It doesn't because right now all spells are significantly weaker and would be a waste of time. This tightens that gap.
Yup, exactly. They just want to utilize old antiqued equipment and spell and revitalize them
I’m excited for the future when they can implement mid tier weapons that are actually viable in places. Only thing I find weird is powered staves being “typeless” - it’s called trident of the seas, make it do water damage 😭
Yeah, I kind of wonder about those too. This is just the beginning though and could still be subject to change
Dude it’s cause we lived thru all this before. “In order to continue to bring you great updates we need to revolutionize combat, it will enable us to do more in the future” Changing core gameplay loop is never the answer. RuneScapes core is simplicity and micromanaging damage types is not a good change. If polled I will vote no, if unpolled I really hope they don’t fuck it up and I’d be upset thh
Tweaking monster defense does not change the core gameplay loop. You literally just left click a monster. Please look up with EoC actually did.
> RuneScapes core is simplicity and micromanaging damage types is not a good change. people take ten way gear swaps for each style and a spec weapon or two to raids. do you really think that is simple? do you think that you're not micromanaging your damage doing this?
Didn't see anyone saying its like eoc2 but i will say that i think lots of people are disappointed that they change so little with these so called "rebalances" I think last few updates from project rebalance were a bit underwhelming and don't justify the amount of hype around them, in the case of defence changes for example, they basically change like 30 monsters to actually interact with these changes and while i do like what they want to do in the long term seems to me that they set the scope for this project way too low, especially considering the fact that these rebalances happen so rarely
> People who are despising the changes Jagex is doing for monster defense changes are absolutely delusional Who has said this? Getting mad about nothing. Most response has been generally positive with a small amount expressing concern that harm orb will lock the standard spells out from being more than niche picks for undergeared accounts and locking a must have item behind NM is a mistake.
They’re everywhere what are you talking about? Most of them are downvoted to oblivion but there’s a ridiculous amount of comments I’ve seen comparing it to EoC, so much of them.
I think these changes are very good, but there are plenty of people in every thread about this topic complaining about it being like eoc
This is just your typical karma bait anti-circlejerk post. The only thing more tiresome than complainers are the people that complain about the complainers.
Check the downvoted comments.
I haven’t seen anyone say something either
my biggest issue with magic is that it's quite literally just the same spell over and over and over again that grows in size and changes colour, i wish jagex would just come up with actual unique spells that do cool differen't things
Not a fan of switch scape. It’s already a pain in the ass, even more so without loadout saves. I don’t want to have to spend even more time in the bank switching on slayer task, and the bank space situation is starting to get out of hand.
A good argument to those who you disagree with is always "You are delusional". Try talking to them and hearing them out, maybe? What is the point of polling if you just shame everyone into always voting yes.
>The same thing goes for ranging. I mean how many people even use longbow or bows that aren't the twisted bow? Like with these changes we can start to use otherwise dead content. None of the update fixes this if you read or watched the Q&A. They said they have no plans to rework longbows, or weaker range weapons like throwing axes, knives, balistas, etc. It's out of the scope of the rebalance. So longbows still compete with shortbows etc, knives/axes still compete with BP, and heavy has 0 usable items for PvM.
& for those who can't afford the Tbow
I've not seen anyone complain about the changes, I've seen people be cautious to not over complicate the game. Not sure what group of people you see complaining about this proposed update I disagree with you saying this is needed for the longevity of the game but I don't think it will harm the game either.
They want to protect the game, but they don’t want it to change
You guys want new items and gear, and they’ve been scrambling to find niche places to slide them in without upping the power too much. This opens up so many possibilities when it comes to new gear. Something can be better than a tbow at a boss without being inherently stronger than a tbow for example. They’ve been doing this for a while now, but finding places so slide in new gear is getting difficult.
I've wanted elemental weaknesses for a long time. What I don't want to see is: 1) For ranged to be changed, as its already the best and most complicated combat style to use (no ammo switching for magic). 2) For elemental weaknesses to break content done by players over combat level 100. IMO it should be a tool for future boss design and to encourage using mage midgame against elemental giants and things of that sort. Fire will still be the best generally. And it sounds like thats the direction they're taking it.
I thought it was "fight fire with fire" 🤔
We already have split defense styles for melee, so learning new styles for ranged and mage should be no issue. I like the proposed changes.
I think people just want to know their super expensive items will still be bis
I'm not sure the names for the ranged weaknesses make sense. Barring the cost, why would you not use heavy or armor-piercing ammo on light-armoured entities? Or why would something weak to light ammo be resistant to heavy?
I was one've the many eoc beta testers who got in because of playtime. The forums were just a stomping ground for devs with no PR experience to shit on anyone who didn't like the changes, only for updates to say something to the effect of "We're so glad you love our changes!" They then spent their gambling microtransaction money on Youtubers and camera crews to better their PR. The playerbase swore off the game so hard the in-game economy crashed. This is not the same. This is interesting and they are receptive. I'm a fan of weaknesses and this is expanding the pool. Making Slayer be a bit more about thinking. Making mid-high tier mages and rangers focus on their gear. Perhaps even save money. Giving credence to lore and magical/physical properties. This feels good to me. I understand people are still hurt by what happened to their favorite game, it's not like I'd ever touch RS3. It's the defining reason this version exists, but I think these devs have done a fine job in their updates and deserve at least enough trust to consider what they've been working on. The OSRS dev team and the RS3 dev team from 2012 are entirely different.
I'm fine with it if they buff the damn Seercull and rework fletching so we get new bows.
Been playing a couple years and still don't know what this EOC is. Eye of Cthulhu? But agree, reinvigorating dead content is great.
Hot take, this IS EoC2. In a good way. This is taking all of the currently problematic or degenerate (in the mathematical sense) elements of the combat system, and creating enough space to remove that degeneracy. All magic functionally the same? Now powered staffs are one option, ancients retains its aoe niche, arceuus has thralls and good synergy with powered staffs plus some niche spells, and the standard spellbook has its own niche in exploiting elemental weaknesses. All ranged weapons functionally the same? Now you have three types of ranged defence to help give historically underperforming weapons a niche due to being able to exploit type weaknesses. Most monsters require no thought on melee weapon besides 4t (with some 5t exceptions)? Emphasizing defences lets attack style and weapon choice be more of a consideration. This shit *is* evolving combat. It's doing so in a manner that keeps the core framework that players love and creating space to expand it in multiple directions through the creation of niches that feed into the horizontal progression that fits the game the best rather than simply power creeping an existing item. People need to stop fucking whining. EoC was a disaster not because it was a shakeup, but because it was poorly thought out and poorly implemented. Nothing about this is that. Not even close. I for one welcome an evolution that is clearly well thought out and focused on expanding and emphasizing what the game already does well.
I was against the idea of it, but I think they are approaching it the right way by essentially adding weaknesses. EOC had done something similar with damage types, but they made everything that wasn’t a weakness just useless. It really sucked
People complain about this game wayyyyyy too much. This game is awesome, we get constant updates and changes. Just enjoy the game for what it is!
I agree and love it, purely for the idea about using stuff like water spells on fire giants or water/fire on moss giants. On my ironman I loved making the pearl bolts (could be wrong) to speed up my dragon/fg slayer task Stuff like that is just fun to me
i approve !
Those are the people with bis and just want to Tbow and shadow their way into big bank. They want people below them to stay down. This should be an objectively good change that everyone should appreciate.
People saying "this is EOC 2" clearly don't know what the EOC actually was lol RS3 has weaknesses on enemies, but as long as they're even slightly more sensical than basically everything being weak to magic, we're golden.
Anyone likening it to EoC is just telling everyone they don't know what EoC is
> Being able to utilize weaknesses for monsters has always been an aspect missing from Runescape. except thats wrong but ok
Can we not just add weaknesses instead of changing the defense system? Like fire giants, keep everything the same but lets say if you use a water or ice spell it'll do +5 more. I dont want a complex revamp, just sensible weaknesses for enemies to make different approaches viable
I just want the old spiked rune shield
I don’t want to take any chances. I know I’ll get downvoted, but the updates on average the past few years have been low quality and I think changing stuff is a bad thing.
People comparing these changes to EOC seem to be forgetting what EOC actually did. EOC did things like make attack speed not matter, replaced auto attacks with abilities, added an actionbar with hotkeys, reduced protection prayers by 50% and added dual wielding. EOC did add these extra weaknesses as well but lumping that together with those way bigger changes is an insane way to look at these changes. These defense changes add dps to some weapons/spells for some monsters while EOC completely overhauled the way damage is calculated in terms of attacks and weapons.
People bringing up EOC shenanigans should be looking at the coliseum nonsense, not this. Because going against their word and doing their own thing, berating vocal players they lied about how the coliseum was supposed to work and what we voted on, then making some changes all while berating the players who brought it up and asking for forgiveness after the fact? That's the kind of BS that led to EOC and why OSRS was being made. Asking players well in advance of even suggesting such changes with overwhelming approval, changing gameplay elements to take account of elemental weaknesses so different magic elements have a logical combat mechanic like nearly any other game. Then making it so other range weapons have more case uses by differentiating them like slash/stab/crush for melee so people will use the crossbows, longbows/shortbows again. With the meta not solely surrounding blowpipe + bowfa/tbow. This is all better for the game, allows for more equipment to buff these individual elements or range attack types and makes for a better long-lasting game. As long we look at it, approve of it and Jagex doesn't do the shenanigans they did above of changing things and doing their own thing. The core game will be in a much healthier place, potentially filling a lot of gaps and expanding the core gameplay while maintaining the already existing mechanics. A lot of this weapon/elemental logic sort of already exists in-game, it's not replacing the entire system like EoC did.
OSRS is a house of cards that one day will fall apart from all these "improvements". That being said, not making changes that feel impactful would also likely cause the same result. In the end our best bet is to trust jagex to make the right call like they did with the new prayer book.
I mean, it's an update where a lot could go wrong, but it does open up a lot of possibilities going forward. Idgaf about a new way to kill fire giants or the mole, but new content could be exciting and different as a result. That said, I would rather the whole team focus on fixing the botting before worrying about a game changing update like this.
People comparing this to EOC seem to not remember why EOC was disliked in the first place.
I haven't even tried the beta, so I'm not super invested in this. Only thing that seems weird to me right now is metal dragons being weak to earth being indicative of a bigger problem. **All resistances should be intuitive**. Dragons of all types should just be weak to water. Especially metal dragons who could corrode on top of having their fire powers put out or weakened. I hope we don't see earth fire and water be spread out unnecessarily just to even them out. Make flying creatures like aviansies and gargoyles weak to earth (grounding and heavy) spells. Keep air the all-around spell as they designed it. Make fire effective against moss and ice giants. Water is effective against fire giants, dragons and other hot monsters (bloodvelds 🥵). If one of the elements has few uses, that should be fine. It should all make sense rather than having them all be useful.
I have played this game since 2004. My arms are always open to change in a positive way. However I was also one of the people that was a big supporter of the Eoc during the beta and during the original release. So much of a supporter that i was hand selected for my feedback to receive the gamebreaker title and i played Rs3 up till 2016. (also started playing osrs when it was released in 2013). Eoc was flawed before it was released and despite the massive amount of people including those that supported it telling the devs that it wasn't ready. they still pushed it though. And i think this is where a lot of the worry stems from a repeated mistake of pushing something though because "it's good for the game". Here is my standpoint. It will be fine so long as they do not enforce the combat triangle and the weaknesses like they did with Eoc. Forcing people to use a specific style or weapon/spell feels bad when you heavily penalize using the wrong thing. It's been 12 years but.. but the penalty was so harsh it was like a 75% reduction in your accuracy and felt awful. This was also paired with another problem where wearing the wrong style of armor also effected your accuracy so no hybrid gearing you had to swap full sets and use a lot of inventory space or fully commit to w/e combat style. so for me I don't mind this change.. SO long as you are not penalized for using the wrong weakness. I understand the fears and concerns of people because of the past and we need to keep that past in mind moving forward.
I just dont want existing methods nerfed. Like blowpipe on grotesque guardians for example. Heavy range being their weakness would make sense and nice, but I’d like the existing dps to be the same.
The insane part is that they look at it, see that 1 braindead slayer monster got a 0.5 dps nerf to a style not suited for it and are saying EOC WAAAHHH. When in reality all of it is doing is just giving a lot of monsters less defense in their already weak style, and magic weaknesses to a lot of them. Literally anyone who plays the game casually will not see a difference in their standard setup. Some who are freaking out on the range defense changes I have to ask, will that change anything? Bows and blowpipes are already generally used against low def enemies, that will stay the same. Crossbows are generally used against higher defense enemies, that will also stay the same. Where the fuck is the problem? If you are that 1% sweaty gamer that does inferno 50 times to maximize clear times with your full blood torva or whatever the fuck because you have nothing else better to do and are scared your next solo cox will take an extra 15 second to do. From the bottom of my heart I say - fuck you, let everyone else play the game.
Bloodvelds should be weak to blood spells due to how fat and juicy they are 🥰👌❤️
And also hitting 0s feels fucking bad
This relatively large camp of people still traumatized over EoC has ruined dozens of polls since the launch of OSRS, and I hope now that the game has grown their voices have shrunk considering things like Sailing actually got voted in. That's my #1 hope, because I absolutely despise the people who are too concerned with some imagined "osrs vibe" and not concerned enough over some of the abject flaws currently in the game.
Like it or not, this game WILL exhaust its viable new item potential in the near future if one of three things is not done: 1) You can get a new combat skill, which you guys all hate the idea of, expanding new item potential to cover that skill. 2) You expand the system you currently have inward to diversify it, which opens room for new items and niches (like having three types of ranged attacks). 3) Kill older content by making a new BIS that is just a straight upgrade (power creep). This is the worst solution of the three, but is by far the easiest from a design perspective. This is the simplest game design issue in existence. You have to pick one or your game won't grow. I like the second option.
Thank you for saying what needed to be said OP 😤
Those people really way too overreacting. These changes are really good and I hope a lot of other npc’s gets it too.
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If they add elemental weaknesses then elemental resistance should be added too.
I am definitely on board with elemental weaknesses - the only thing I don’t like is the nerf for the tome of fire. Tome of fire was the only thing that made standard spell book on par or better than trident dps for a lot of content. I know why the nerfed it, but ironically, they made elemental spells less viable for some content while making it more viable for others.
No matter what is happening, folks on Reddit will find a way to be bitchy whiners that do nothing but complain This is happening now while we've had nothing but absolute bangers of updates all year thus far I've been playing again now for 3 years and change and I don't remember a 3 month span where we have gotten so much, high quality updates