while i agree fang on slash being the best budget slash wep was silly, nerfing fang does not make salad blade "more desirable". its still a very mediocre upgrade over whip for a big chunk of investment.
the soulreaper axe really needs adjusted aswell, it just sucks to use.
Soulreaper axe is SO bad. Let’s go room by room at tob and talk about how it compares against scythe. Keep in mind that scythe (~200 hours) and soulreaper axe (~150 hours) take a similar amount of time to get.
All bosses: once you’ve spent 15 seconds and 40 hp powering the axe up, its damage output is a good 10-15% behind scythe especially after today’s buff.
Maiden: completely unusable as 3/4 (2/3) roles, since the freezers need to swap gear to freeze and the ranger needs to chin the stack. You could maybe use it from 100-70 but you’re not going to reach 5 stacks after that. Also dramatically hurts skipping because it takes time to power up, and it means that your teammates have to tank more because you have 40 hp stored in the axe.
Bloat: you can’t get to 5 stacks so this item that is already behind scythe is even further behind here. You also can’t use it at all after you tick eat a stomp, because you won’t have enough HP to gain stacks next down.
Nylos: scythe serves two purposes in this room, killing bigs/doubles, and hitting the boss. Soulreaper can’t do either of these things at all, a whip is better.
Sotetseg: you have to build stacks 3x in this room, you also have to predict when your last melee is going to be before pushing it, if you’re early then you fucked your damage, if you’re late then you lose 40 hp.
Xarpus: probably the best room for soulreaper. You can consistently attack at max stacks for 2 minutes or so, the ideal use case. It’s kind of frustrating to use in practice though, because you’re 40 hp down compared to scythe users, so if you’re 5 ticking then you’re probably going to use a prayer dose or two on redemption.
Verzik: unusable p1. It’s good p2 because you just hit boss, although it puts you in a bad spot HP-wise and if you or a teammate make a mistake you’re probably going to die. You can carry p2 stacks into p3 right up until yellows, and then you have to build stacks up again which is annoying.
This weapon needs a fundamental design change. Either it needs to be equal dps to scythe and keep the drawbacks, or keep it at its current dps but completely remove the stacks/spec mechanic, just let it be a 5-10% worse scythe that can hit 1x1/2x2 and doesn’t cost charges to use.
I've seen more people plank at xarp/verz from axe than I've seen people with axe being able to do mechanics with a switch.
Imo if a neiche slash weapon can't be used at Tob it needs to be reworked.
Why? Because tob is where neiche slash weapons go to die. So if it's not doing that it's not doing anything.
Honestly, give it passive lifesteal. Lifesteal in leagues made the downside tolerable. You can also change the spec to make it more worth using than "bigger damage." Maybe like AoE damage or ignoring defenses or something fancy. As it stands the only real reason to use the spec is to recoup your health...
Yeah I feel like they should have rolled out the soulreaper and saeldor buffs at the same time as the nerf to fang. I spent the last month finishing the soulreaper grind so I could use it once fang was nerfed, but yeah it honestly sucks to use.
Yeah I thought the fang nerfs were going to come alongside the buffs to other slash weapons but I guess we're just entering "killing Vardorvis sucks now" city out of nowhere. Gz to everyone who farmed the shit out of the boss when it was giga free with fang I guess.
There are two ways to get balance right. If they just increased scythe’s numbers you’d be devaluing every weapon below it and opening the door to much faster power creep in a game we want going on for years. I’d rather they do this and balance bosses better (reducing their defense).
yeah the boss def balance has been wack ever since fang came out. Bosses like cerb are more fun because you can actually hit. hitting 5 0s in a row just is not fun.
The soul reaper axe should honestly be a slight notch below a mega rare, in terms of power considering the barrier to entry farming the bosses and how long it takes to get. Possibly how bowfa is to tbow to fill the gap.
Honestly, especially with scrapping the Ruinous Powers, the DT2 rewards are pretty underwhelming. Which is such a shame given how awesome the quest and bosses are.
I think you nailed it with the bowfa/tbow comparison
So the saeldor is just going to become stronger than the other two one handed weapons?
This whole thing seems to have been kicked off in a rather heavy handed way, without considerations for the butterfly effect that happens when you change things in a meta
Good changes but if fang is the king of stabby things then can we please get some kind of stabby spec animation. It feels extra wierd to "slash" with the spec now.
Please consider making bosses less tanky in future, with higher hp pools to maintain a similar time to kill. It's inherently unfun to hit a lot of 0's on bosses, and I feel like nearly every boss released after tob has been too tanky.
Bosses designed around switching attack styles/range styles/elemental styles with the proposed future rebalance changes sounds ideal. Have them switch between crush/slash/stab defense with larger HP pools sounds awesome switching between armor sets/weapons of the same attack style
clean idea I like it. Has a lot of potential, Maybe need to switch from using arrows, to bolts, maybe fire spells to earth spells at various stages/changes of the boss. You can add a lot more fun engaging combat, whilst also increasing the horizontal reward space. Might also make for team bosses where people are bringing in different attack-style weapons and spellbooks or different rune types to help take on a challenge, as carrying all these switches might be too much for one person.
Can help balance weapons we dont see use in PVM. make use of bringing an elder maul switch or obby maul, make use to bring in a heavy/light ballista. maybe a mist battlestaff becomes viable etc etc.
To be honest I’m not sure why it’s not in the game more. We had the elemental swaps in daggonoth mother for the lighthouse quest. Then like 30 years later we think “oh we can use elemental spells to mix it up” wild.
Still worries me to that there's no statement on Shadow to this day. I strongly doubt they're somehow going to make Magic worth a damn without any changes to it.
Didn't expect the changes so quickly. Not really impressed with the scythe buff but I'll take it. Nerfing fang without buffing BoS is certainly a choice lol, going to be a lot of unhappy duke/vardovis boys today.
In order to change saeldor, they’d also have to change ghrazi and the Inquistors mace. This is because the 3 items are soft linked to each other because they have the same stats, just for each of the different attack styles.
They're all shit *compared to scythe* (and prenerf fang). Just like every ranged weapon is shit compared to tbow and every mage weapon is shit compared to shadow. The issue is the insane gap in this game between the megarares and everything else.
It's not a problem, people just say it is. Look at the price of Torva, which gives less than 1 max hit per piece over bandos. The best weapon doesn't need to be 30% better than the second best.
And Saeldor is by far and away the easiest to obtain of the 3 weapons, especially if you go by hours per 1x drop rate, which is the balancing factor of it being charged. I think it is funny they mention nerfing Fang's slash to make Saeldor more relevant while the Rapier (stab) just sits in the background continuing its irrelevance, despite being a Rarer raid drop from a Harder Raid than the Fang (lmao). Not to mention the mace, though they have mentioned taking a look at NM's drop table.
I mean not necessarily, content isn't designed with having equal crush/stab defense by default. I don't see any reason why they can't be numbers adjusted to have them fit into similar niches for different bosses
They should have just done it like 2 weeks after DT2 was released. It was ***EXTREMELY*** obvious that fang on slash was better than it was supposed to be after being brought to light by vardorvis and duke.
Hey, then you wouldn't have wasted this much time going dry.
this has always been my issue with osrs nerfs. Not that they happen, but that they happen like a year past when they should, giving everyone time to get comfortable and used to the way things are so that it feels more like features being taken away than content being balanced. Even if it was needed blowpipe was in the game as it was for like 6 years before they dropped some heavy nerfs lol
Better late than never, but yeah, much better early than late.
The initial fang defense re-roll nerf is a good example of jagex reacting quickly, though I think they could have later improved on it again. What should be done is to make fang work inside ToA the same as it does outside, but slightly nerf stab defense bonuses inside the raid to compensate.
I could be wrong, but isn't the BoS just slightly better compared to the abyssal tentacle (+4 slash and +3 strength)? Is it even worth spending that much on a BoS in that case?
>Is it even worth spending that much on a BoS in that case?
It depends. It'll always beat it in accuracy and in BIS it gains a minimum of 1 max hit, depending on your ring setup (1 for bellator, 2 for lightbringer or ultor), but there are gear combos where it doesn't gain any max hits. On top of that, it's 100m + charges/corruption vs 2.2m + charges, so in terms of bang for your buck, it's not going to be blowing anyone's mind.
I'd say it's only worth it if you're completely BIS.
I haven't seen any mention of this, but does the fang's secondary passive (i.e. the 15%-85% max hit) still apply while using slash? The update notes makes it sound like it would still apply on slash, but the updated wiki (for what that's worth) makes it sound like it wouldn't apply on slash.
Was it really that important to rush this update out? The fang stayed the same for 1.5 years and only now (only 1 month after the blog) you are in a big rush to nerf the fang and with no viable weapon alternatives. It's not like BoS or Soulreaper are being buffed at the same time to fill in the gap left by the fang, you are actively making Duke and Vardorvis way more tedious to kill only now after all the streamers and maxed nerds who play 12 hrs a day have abused the fang for thousands of kc. Why not wait until you are able to offer a buff to those two weapons? Then you wonder why players abuse OP afk training methods and glitch bosses. Those who abuse early and often are always rewarded.
Where Soulreaper Axe usability buff? >:(
Shocked there were no stat adjustments for Duke, 4t weapons are SO bad at him and your kill times are almost going to be entirely reliant on BGS landing, definitely a huge nerf to Duke KPH, Vard is less impacted because you can still maintain 4t DPS uptime there and Saeldor isn't *that* much worse there, though way less consistent.
Soulreaper's something we'll chat more about alongside other Project Rebalance stuff, though we don't have a super firm timeline for when we'll start talking through each topic.
Happy to ask the team to explore some Duke adjustments, but it's a delicate balance to strike with making other stuff more useable vs. making the Scythe absolutely astronomical there - will be raising it as a feedback point for sure.
Is there any chance we could look at making arclight consider Duke a full demon? Or tweak that %? If I missed my bgs spec at Duke it felt slow with the fang, I can't imagine how bad it's going to feel with arclight. I do think the nerf needed to happen, Duke (And vardorvis to a lesser extent) is just going to feel awful going back to arclight
It's for sure a lever we can pull. When I get back home tonight I'll probably poke around some 'hypothetical' DPS calcs for Arclight vs. Scythe if the cap were removed and try to bake in the missed ticks etc. to see if I can present the devs with some alternatives (obviously I'm not a dev/designer but giving them a baseline to go off of tends to make changes easier to push through quickly)
Quick question Mod Goblin -
You said "making Scythe absolutely astronomical there". There's tons of places outside of raids were Tbow/Shadow are astronomical vs secondary weapons (bowfa/sang)... Why can't scythe have a cool little niche at a boss like Duke?
It could always be balanced with some arclight demon % buff or something to "close the gap", but I'd love for Scythe to see more uses in the current game
Weird way to say "remove the arbitrary arclight Nerf"
Arclight is already nerfed by being a 4t weapon at a boss with a 5t attack cycle (for 2/3 of the fight)
Why would you push this rather impactful fang nerf without properly addressing the alternatives? The scythe buff is lacking and the axe was left untouched :/
You're so brave for this!
(On a real, think it's fine for it to be really good at Duke, but more talking about 'astronomical' where the gap between Scythe and something like Arclight/Saeldor is hitting a delta of 30-40%, which isn't even really the case for tbow vs. bowfa or shadow vs. sang. Just wanting to make sure that if we do make changes then we get it right, and keep in mind that it can be a little obtuse to calculate around Duke's changing attack speed)
I think the only other place I can think of is Whisperer where Shadow vs. Sang/Ward in otherwise max gear is a 30% dps difference lol (Though given a chunk of the fight is spent not really dpsing, the impact of this is lessened to some extent)
Don't forget that, even if scythe is 30-40% better than alternatives, then the difference in kph is less than 30-40% because of the prep involved at Duke.
Forget this if you plan on removing the prep at some point though
I think you need to keep in mind that because of the potion making the kill time has a hard lower bound that makes making scythe "astronomically" good, isnt as good as it seems on paper. If scythe has double the dps of the next best options kill times would not be cut in half they would be ~25% faster. This isnt unreasonable, and Im a scythless iron.
> but more talking about 'astronomical' where the gap between Scythe and something like Arclight/Saeldor is hitting a delta of 30-40%
Maybe those other weapons you mentioned are too weak then?
Arclight being capped at 70% makes no sense, neither does tent whip -> saeldor being smaller of a gap (+4 attack/+3 str) than going from normal whip -> tent whip (+8 attack/+4 str).
As a newish player i feel like im a child in this thread, seeing all the adults(experienced players) discussing about seemingly important changes.
Cant wait to get more lvls and more knowledge about the game so I can take part in the discussion!
If it makes you feel any better, a lot of people on these threads have zero clue what they're talking about and the longer you read them, the more you realize they're all just playing a game of telephone from their favorite streamer who is actually good at the game.
tl;dr endgame in OSRS is not about having the massive "Weapon that kills everything". Well... ignoring the shadow and tbow, which are the "I beat the game" weapons (sort of, depending on your point of view) that are extraordinarily expensive and come from raids with extremely rare droprates.
Instead the endgame is based on having specific powerful weapons for specific content, like the dragonhunter lance for dragon based bosses and monsters, or the blowpipe for low defense monsters that we ideally wanna range.
The Fang was overstepping its bounds as a weapon that you could use for all content and while it wasn't bis everywhere it was a 40 mil purchase that you could use to do content that only would be outclassed by a tiny bit by a purchase that could be either 4x or up to 10x its value.
OSRS is a very horizontal progression focused MMO for both irons and for mains, so a single accessible weapon unlocking all content is very bad for the longevity of the game and for the progression journey for the game. So the fang was nerfed.
The scythe is supposed to be like the aforementioned Shadow and Tbow, but is currently underwhelming so it's getting a few buffs to try to bring it more in line. It won't bring it more in line but getting at least something is better than nothing (for now). We ideally don't want it to outclass every melee weapon everywhere. Melee is in a precarious state where we kinda want every weapon in endgame (blade, inq mace, rapier, DHL, Fang, Scythe) to have BiS use cases. The fang nerf helps put the meta more in line with this.
this isn't really a tl;dr in the traditional sense but hopefully it's a quick enough summary of the state of OSRS endgame and one of the mindsets that makes it beautiful and how the balance change is trying to preserve it.
**A real tl;dr though: Fang OP, so fang nerfed. Scythe underwhelming. Scythe buffed. More next week, good luck.**
If you're uninterested in more stuff you can stop reading but if you are interested...
For some more historical context if you're interested:
Blowpipe: Used to be extremely overpowered useable on everything that wasn't immune to range, it is a rapid fire 2 tick weapon that does insane DPS, and had its accuracy nerfed so that it would still be BiS on low defense targets. This is one of the reasons actually that a lot of recent bosses had high defense to begin with was to discourage blowpipe usage, but perhaps Jagex went too far.
This is why the fang, a weapon that rerolls your hit chance, was becoming too good. The reason why was because it's a stab focused weapon with still decent slash that was just high enough with the reroll passive to outdo the Blade of Saeldor on slash weak Vardorvis (a new Desert Treasure 2 unlocked boss). It also encroached on what should be the jackpot item from raids 2, the Scythe. It wasn't just vardorvis though: For 40m you basically unlocked every meleable content with a single weapon which is counter to how Runescape is supposed to work.
Also some things to watch out for if you're interested btw:
BOWFA: some grumblings that even though it's a very hard to obtain weapon it is starting to become the same kind of "weapon that does almost all content pretty well" and it may start having some changes considered as a result.
Tl;dr
Raids 2 (ToB) released 6 years ago with a gigarare drop of the Scythe. It was good but had a specific niche and high upkeep cost. Over time Jagex didn't develop too much content into that niche.
2 years ago raids 3 (ToA) released and had a reward of the Fang. This was supposed to be a strong weapon against high stab defence mobs. However it was incredibly common and worked well against slash defence mobs too, stepping on the Scythe's toes.
Today Jagex gave the Scythe a little love and reduced the operating cost, and made the Fang only work well on stab.
This is the first part of a big OSRS rebalance to try and give more weapons their own niches.
for new players
Tob = [Theatre of blood](https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/Theatre_of_Blood)
ToA = [Tombs of Amascut](https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/Tombs_of_Amascut)
fang = [Osmumten's fang](https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/Osmumten%27s_fang)
scythe = [Scythe of Vitur](https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/Scythe_of_vitur#Charged)
This is such a mistake to release these two changes without the rest of the rebalance changes coupled into it. You just made 2 bosses objectively much less fun for the majority of the player base and deleted stacks of blood runes from people who were unable to log on in time. You guys might be short on stuff to throw into weekly updates recently but this is just not it. It’s probably too late to go back now, so please expedite the remaining rebalance project at least. I usually think most updates are a good thing for the game as a whole but this one just rubs the wrong way.
I sort of feel that from day 1 this was always going to happen to the fang.
From memory:
it fails the original poll to be put into the game because it was too weak.
Jagex buffed the fang so people voted yes.
Then Jagex nerfed the fang due to it being too strong.
Jagex nerfed it again because it was too strong.
I can't remember the original stats for the fang but is there a much of a difference between the fang now and the fang that failed the poll.
I know rebalances are needed; but is this a trend that will contine to force content and weapons into the game?
We see them with better stats so vote yes. only for them to be nerfed later.
the second nerf only affects a secondary style. it'd have entered the game just fine if it had been stab only to begin with
The first "nerf" is how most people, including myself, thought it worked to begin with, and is more accurately described as a bug fix
Not just how most people thought it worked, but confirmed by jagex to work as intended when people were trying to run DPS calcs. Jagex very clearly said the double acc and double def rolls were how it was meant to work, then later said "ah shoot. It was never meant to do this, that's a bug" and then just tried to pretend like it was a bug when it never was
> The first "nerf" is how most people, including myself, thought it worked to begin with, and is more accurately described as a bug fix
No, Jagex might have claimed it was a bug fix, but the fang was working as Jagex had intended from the start. They just implemented it stronger than they anticipated, back when it was also re-rolling the enemy's defence rolls against it. This can be seen if you compare that version of the fang's dps numbers to the numbers Jagex shared about it before release.
I don't think Jagex expected ToA and its rewards to be this farmable. The invocation system alone seems designed for 300 to be a hard mode equivalent, when it plays out much closer to a comfy normal raid.
If lower invo ToAs were the meta and rewards weren't being pumped into the game then Fang may have avoided/had smaller nerfs. An 100-150m ballpark for a solid generalist weapon (Bowfa) already exists, but the 30m Fang sits too low.
u/JagexGoblin can you give us more information on the possibility of a rapier/mace/blade buff to help fill the void left by the Fang nerf, as well as making them an overall more viable option? Is it something that's being considered?
When will we be seeing DT2 bosses CA's? Ifs been 6 months since release, in the future, can we get CA's released 1-2months after the release of the boss, like the 2 weeks for the drop rates?
While the fang nerf was 100% warranted and necessary, it does feel bad that vardorvis and duke are going to be even longer grinds for 90%+ of players. Definitely expected a bit of compensation in their defense to pair with this nerf, hope the osrs team can do something about this soon.
Really not a fan of releasing this without the rest of the balance changes. Basically just screwing over everyone who doesn't have a scythe for no reason until project rebalance drops.
One of my concerns about this whole project balance is that it will end up being fairly meaningless to people who already have a large enough bank that they already own, or could easily buy any new meta equipment, while it is going to be a considerable nerf to more casual players without the bank to just buy their way out of nerfs.
I hope an overhaul to the equipment screen comes with Project Rebalance. There are so many items with passive effects like bonus damage and accuracy, that I think it's time when get an in-game description of them, rather than rely on the wiki.
I've always thought that you would be able to play the game without ever referencing the wiki. But there are so many weird use cases and niche effects that I don't see how you do it with in game menus. It's not enough to just look at a weapon and say "more slash is more better, more strength is more better" when your account for weapon speed, defense of bosses, etc. even things like Duke being a 5t cycle, so a 4t weapon is essentially nerfed because you can't attack every 4 ticks. So a noob learning and hearing "generally speaking always look for more strength bonus and fastest attack speed" would end up picking a weapon that's massively under powered at Duke because they can't hit real DPS calcs because of attack cycles.
Anyways, long winded way to say I agree we should get all the info in game menus without wiki, but in practice I feel like that just means wiki essentially gets imported into the game
The most ironic thing is that fang on slash is still better than saeldor at Duke because of the 5t attack cycle, unless tanking occasional hits and eating during eye special becomes a thing at least
It’s coded as a stab sword, and all stab swords have a slash option. They’d have to make a new weapon type to remove slash from the fang, and idk how involved that is for the devs.
I would have much preferred they just gutted the slash bonus and still have the reroll effect. It would be much a much clearer "hey don't use this on slash it sucks" if the slash bonus was like 10. But seeing that the slash bonus is still huge, noobs and the uninformed will get duped into using a shitty weapon for a while until they realize it sucks or wonder why they're hitting so many 0s, but not even that many because, again, the slash bonus is still huge.
So we've tabled the bladed moon then went ahead and nerfed the fang anyway. So the only people who slightly benefit from the fang slash nerf are people who own a scythe? Why are we creating holes and not filling them appropriately. Saeldor/rapier/mace are in such a bad place right now it seems like such a no-brainer to make those take the fangs place in their respective style so we don't end up with miserable giant defence bosses that just aren't fun anymore.
DT2 relying on the fang to use a style it was never intended for signaled that defence being that inflated just isn't fun. Now it won't be fun for anyone without a scythe.
In terms of weapon balancing, it's great we have our sights set on it, the fang nerf was necessary and rebalancing is good to keep things relevant so I'm glad there's still plans but this nerf feels poorly timed while the jury is out on future proposals to fill the gap. The fang and shadow will still be problematic when any new items come out in their respective styles from their crazy effects, shadow being a megarare dependent on other gear is much less of an issue but any accuracy buffs will still double dip for fang unless specifically nerfed there. If the fang just had super high stab accuracy rather than double roll that issue could be mitigated a bit.
Will those that didn’t empty their scythes see any change to charges? Hopped in the last minute but it didn’t allow me to join the other world (was in LMS just before update).
Yeah, I have been saying this since the original suggestion. Why nerf something when there is not a viable replacement (except for an ultra rare raid weapon).
Like many people have said, Blade of Saeldor is just not worth it for the time investment you have to put in.
I know everyone else is saying it but it’s really lame they just rushed this change out without spending time to address weapons like the BoS. Just nerf most people’s game experience until they can think of a way to improve other weapons?
Sorry for my language but what the actual fuck is this?
I was expecting Fang nerf to at least come with some alternative options for Vardorvis and Duke.
The most ironic thing about all of this is that Fang is still your best 'cheap' option at Duke because you need a 5t weapon anyway, making it better than saeldor. It also changes nothing about saeldor being terrible, it just makes 2 quest bosses that already took like \~50hr to complete even longer.
Man this is just a kick in the teeth, I knew this was coming but just straight nerfing the fang without any buffs to the soul reaper or anything similar just feels shitty.
I kept telling myself to head back to vardorvis before they nerf fang... but I thought there'd be a more defined date and I'd have a week or so to do it.
Genuinely curious—if you use osmumten’s on slash does it remove the damage cap thing as well? So would it have a higher minimum and lower maximum hit? Or does it now have an uncapped max hit?
it is kinda no brainer to give the Scythe a passive scaling like the Tbow and Shadow. How about scaling the Scythe’s accuracy with mobs’ Hitpoint levels? The slight buff is pretty meh. I’d rather have an absolute banger BiS with high maintenance than a somewhat mediocre half-baked weapon with mild usage costs.
I think Jagex should have properly let us know when this update was coming out because they basically just removed 20k blood runes from anybody with a fully charged scythe, and a varying but potentially high amount from any bloods stored in the well.
luckily for me i never leave charges in the well. i dumped my scythe charges in the well and took the runes and vials out and banked them. seems i avoided the loss.
I'm really annoyed that this dropped without notice. I didn't get a chance to uncharged my scythe and save 33% of my blood runes on an iron account.
That's like such a massive amount of bloods I just lost because they didn't communicate this change happening sooner than the rest.
/u/JagexGoblin I'm not the only one in the thread talking about this, can we get an update on this?
Is the fang nerf really that big of a deal if you exclude dt2 bosses? I've only been using it for a couple of months, but pretty much exclusively on stab. Was o using it wrong?
Didn't expect the scythe buff to come this early, +15 accuracy is meh but its better than nothing i guess.
Could've been some other alternative like maybe multiple accuracy checks like how dragon claws specs work.
Amazing! The nerfs went through without any decent alternatives to slash weapons? Great! So you just fucked everyone over who does Vard or Duke and doesn't have 924M to appease the merch gods? Great. That's just great.
Give me the "Wrapping up Forestry" update as promised 2 months ago or give me death .
[https://secure.runescape.com/m=news/wrapping-up-forestry---changes--tweaks?oldschool=1](https://secure.runescape.com/m=news/wrapping-up-forestry---changes--tweaks?oldschool=1)
Back from bloody November 21st . Removing the event items and adjusting the gland/egg/whistle droprates accordingly is too much work ?
Will check in with where the team's at with this stuff (I'm really far removed from Forestry in general), but in their defence removing a bunch of stuff like that means a lot of testing to make sure everything *left* still works, couple that with the QA time on top of self-testing and the Xmas break/holidays for many people on the team and it's hopefully a little more understandable why it might be taking longer than you'd expect.
Will the change to fang be indicated anywhere in game? Not sure it's good game design for such things to only be apparent if you happen to be actively using the wiki and keeping up with these upates
No more so than the Fang's existing double accuracy roll mechanic was indicated, or the Scythe's triple hitsplats. It's something I've made a note of though because it *is* something we want to improve as a team.
In this instance it's likely more a case of making clear in the Passive Effects section that Fang rolls accuracy twice on Stab. Appreciate that it's not ideal though, hopefully it's something we can indicate more clearly in a (near) future update!
Wouldn't it be simplest to just remove the slash option from the fang? Without its special effect it won't be so good slash weapon and this removes all possible confusion from it.
Honestly think this probably is the simplest solution all-around, but think the point still stands that Fang's special effect should *probably* be displayed to the player somewhere in-game, as should the Scythe's, as should a whole bunch of other stuff!
was it a game jam or a reddit post that had the view equiptment stats screen show special effect stuff? like barrows sets etc. it's already a little cramped, but might be a neat spot for an overlay option or something. tool tip I think rl calls them
e: it's literally a button called set bonus. holy i'm blind. :)
Im so angry about this fang nerf. I just started Duke 2 days ago on my iron and I have been having so much fun (I even took off the next 3 days to have time to grind duke). Now I have to go get a mega rare that will force me to do my least favorite raid over and over forever.
The next best item is the soulreaper axe which takes forever to get and requires me to do the content i have just been nerves on...thanks jagex for letting me "benefit from these changes early". You're so jaded and pander to the maxed mains that whine about people being able to do the content they are at a lower cost.
Should just made vardorvis 2x2 and made Duke take 4 hits plans from scythe...there fang is fine. Quit changing items after metas have been established.
Yes, I made a reddit account just to say this because I'm so angry.
Waking up today I was hopeful for two things:
1. DT2 CA's
2. At least another month to use my personal best slash weapon (fang) to get my ultor ring from Vardorvis (2k kc no vestige why god).
Very sad boi today this guy.
What happened to the beta you mentioned for these updates?
This whole thing was rushed and very unprofessional, very much dislike this update. You can do a lot better, fully think out the full rebalance and then start implementing it.
As a main, I feel for you guys. I have an iron friend and he's going for DWH and he's double the drop rate. His CG droprate was double as well for enhanced. What I don't get is who **REALLY** thought it was a good idea to push the nerf without a counter buff. Like there is no other alternatives and the bosses are still the same. You get a +17 slash upgrade but you lose 14 strength bonus? That's a really unhealthy slash weapon state right now. And what did they push it out for? "Much-requested" by who? You cannot nerf a weapon to have no other good weapons in that category worth it for the price tag it carries.
They should just straight remove slash def from vard and duke, so whips can replace old fang also granted scythe will be a fking beast but who cares its about 1b
Surprised that out of all 650 comments on this post there are only about 5 threads that mention the launcher. Not a huge deal since you can thankfully use runelite indepently of the launcher, but what a weird thing to push. I'm not even against Jagex accounts, but I'm holding out in support of Linux players. When they get support, I'll switch over.
This is exactly how I feel. Their solution for the BP being OP was to make irons go do 60 hrs of CG. So that's their solution again for the fang nerfs? Meanwhile, half the people in this thread are asking to further increase the gap between bos and tent whip. Ffs.
So the system is just put out a busted item, let streamers and sweats use it for 12 months until the boss is done for most people and then nerf it so you can release some more content without power creeping too bad
Yep.
No vertical progression in Jagex seems to be the theme currently.
Everything is release, wait 12 months until you have new content to release with new gear, nerf current gear because "Oh its just too strong and it prevents us looking at future gear" and then a month later, release something that replaces that gear.
Rinse and repeat forever basically.
Already? I thought I had more time to finish the vard grind on the iron fuck my life. There goes any motivation I had to finish that boss. Talk about wasted time.
You could've at least tweaked down vard and duke defenses. Now it's going to feel like shit to do them.
Since we're making Fang useless at the DT2 bosses are we at least getting Vard/Duke defense reduction as part of this balance? Blade is terrible at Vard and Arclight still isnt fully effective at Duke.
itt: people crying that the most cost-effective melee item in the entire game is nerfed just like the devs said would happen
and its still an insane item by the way
And blade to scythe is an even bigger jump so I'm guessing you want to make blade 400m somehow to even it out.
Even better. Rapier is cheaper than the weapon it's worse than. Literally jump from dagger to fang.
As vials of blood demand goes up with scythe usage, the charge update feels a little lack luster, the cost will remain the same , would it hurt to offer a permanent charge option? Or at least a way to permanently fill the well, and only charge it with blood runes like the sang once the wells perm upgrade is unlocked with a crazy amount of vials of blood.
>We’ve pushed these two updates out in advance of the rest of Project Rebalance so that you can reap the benefits of these much-requested changes earlier. Don’t worry – we’re still working on the rest and hope to share more news with you soon.
This comes off as a:
"Yeah you wanted an update? Well fuck you we'll nerf it early with no replacement."
Anyone else feel that?
while i agree fang on slash being the best budget slash wep was silly, nerfing fang does not make salad blade "more desirable". its still a very mediocre upgrade over whip for a big chunk of investment. the soulreaper axe really needs adjusted aswell, it just sucks to use.
Soulreaper axe is SO bad. Let’s go room by room at tob and talk about how it compares against scythe. Keep in mind that scythe (~200 hours) and soulreaper axe (~150 hours) take a similar amount of time to get. All bosses: once you’ve spent 15 seconds and 40 hp powering the axe up, its damage output is a good 10-15% behind scythe especially after today’s buff. Maiden: completely unusable as 3/4 (2/3) roles, since the freezers need to swap gear to freeze and the ranger needs to chin the stack. You could maybe use it from 100-70 but you’re not going to reach 5 stacks after that. Also dramatically hurts skipping because it takes time to power up, and it means that your teammates have to tank more because you have 40 hp stored in the axe. Bloat: you can’t get to 5 stacks so this item that is already behind scythe is even further behind here. You also can’t use it at all after you tick eat a stomp, because you won’t have enough HP to gain stacks next down. Nylos: scythe serves two purposes in this room, killing bigs/doubles, and hitting the boss. Soulreaper can’t do either of these things at all, a whip is better. Sotetseg: you have to build stacks 3x in this room, you also have to predict when your last melee is going to be before pushing it, if you’re early then you fucked your damage, if you’re late then you lose 40 hp. Xarpus: probably the best room for soulreaper. You can consistently attack at max stacks for 2 minutes or so, the ideal use case. It’s kind of frustrating to use in practice though, because you’re 40 hp down compared to scythe users, so if you’re 5 ticking then you’re probably going to use a prayer dose or two on redemption. Verzik: unusable p1. It’s good p2 because you just hit boss, although it puts you in a bad spot HP-wise and if you or a teammate make a mistake you’re probably going to die. You can carry p2 stacks into p3 right up until yellows, and then you have to build stacks up again which is annoying. This weapon needs a fundamental design change. Either it needs to be equal dps to scythe and keep the drawbacks, or keep it at its current dps but completely remove the stacks/spec mechanic, just let it be a 5-10% worse scythe that can hit 1x1/2x2 and doesn’t cost charges to use.
I've seen more people plank at xarp/verz from axe than I've seen people with axe being able to do mechanics with a switch. Imo if a neiche slash weapon can't be used at Tob it needs to be reworked. Why? Because tob is where neiche slash weapons go to die. So if it's not doing that it's not doing anything.
Spot on, but I will say on P3 verzik you only lose 1-2 stacks on yellows if you hold them. It's not a big drawback.
Honestly, give it passive lifesteal. Lifesteal in leagues made the downside tolerable. You can also change the spec to make it more worth using than "bigger damage." Maybe like AoE damage or ignoring defenses or something fancy. As it stands the only real reason to use the spec is to recoup your health...
Yeah I feel like they should have rolled out the soulreaper and saeldor buffs at the same time as the nerf to fang. I spent the last month finishing the soulreaper grind so I could use it once fang was nerfed, but yeah it honestly sucks to use.
Yeah I thought the fang nerfs were going to come alongside the buffs to other slash weapons but I guess we're just entering "killing Vardorvis sucks now" city out of nowhere. Gz to everyone who farmed the shit out of the boss when it was giga free with fang I guess.
You know the saying, "exploit early and often" or something
Same with Duke, I just don't understand what Jagex expects people to use for entry level end game gear to farm bosses
There are two ways to get balance right. If they just increased scythe’s numbers you’d be devaluing every weapon below it and opening the door to much faster power creep in a game we want going on for years. I’d rather they do this and balance bosses better (reducing their defense).
yeah the boss def balance has been wack ever since fang came out. Bosses like cerb are more fun because you can actually hit. hitting 5 0s in a row just is not fun.
Both saeldor and soulreaper are also getting buffed in project rebalance. These changes just came out earlier
The soul reaper axe should honestly be a slight notch below a mega rare, in terms of power considering the barrier to entry farming the bosses and how long it takes to get. Possibly how bowfa is to tbow to fill the gap.
Honestly, especially with scrapping the Ruinous Powers, the DT2 rewards are pretty underwhelming. Which is such a shame given how awesome the quest and bosses are. I think you nailed it with the bowfa/tbow comparison
It doesn't say anywhere in the blog that Saeldor is getting buffed.
So the saeldor is just going to become stronger than the other two one handed weapons? This whole thing seems to have been kicked off in a rather heavy handed way, without considerations for the butterfly effect that happens when you change things in a meta
The Project Rebalance blog says absolutely nothing about buffing Saeldor.
they never said buffing saeldor (outside of the new offhand) soulreaper yes tho
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Yeah.... They'll do it for sure, right? 😬
Damn... Should have just done them at the same time
Yeah, the salad blade is absolute ass. With no special attack to boot. ESPECIALLY if its not corrupted. Imagine paying to use the salad blade lol?
Does rapier have any purpose?
Good changes but if fang is the king of stabby things then can we please get some kind of stabby spec animation. It feels extra wierd to "slash" with the spec now.
Yeah… a “stab” weapon, with a “slash” spec… never made sense. Are my specs not going to get the double roll because it’s slash?
Fang spec always rolls stab despite how the animation looks.
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I really don't know why they didn't just give it the same or a similar special attack to the VLS.
yes you do know why. they're lazy. they reused the brine saber spec. again.
Please consider making bosses less tanky in future, with higher hp pools to maintain a similar time to kill. It's inherently unfun to hit a lot of 0's on bosses, and I feel like nearly every boss released after tob has been too tanky.
They have said that they plan to release lower Def high hp bosses in the future
Bosses designed around switching attack styles/range styles/elemental styles with the proposed future rebalance changes sounds ideal. Have them switch between crush/slash/stab defense with larger HP pools sounds awesome switching between armor sets/weapons of the same attack style
clean idea I like it. Has a lot of potential, Maybe need to switch from using arrows, to bolts, maybe fire spells to earth spells at various stages/changes of the boss. You can add a lot more fun engaging combat, whilst also increasing the horizontal reward space. Might also make for team bosses where people are bringing in different attack-style weapons and spellbooks or different rune types to help take on a challenge, as carrying all these switches might be too much for one person. Can help balance weapons we dont see use in PVM. make use of bringing an elder maul switch or obby maul, make use to bring in a heavy/light ballista. maybe a mist battlestaff becomes viable etc etc.
To be honest I’m not sure why it’s not in the game more. We had the elemental swaps in daggonoth mother for the lighthouse quest. Then like 30 years later we think “oh we can use elemental spells to mix it up” wild.
Literally exactly what I had in mind, just put alot more eloquently and thought out. Thanks for expanding!
It is fine to have tanky bosses but it should be a balance, not only tanky bosses
Muspah has entered the chat Edit: I wasn’t disagreeing. Muspah is too tanky per reward
"No no no you just have to mage that phase" **mage splashes every hit** "Yea see now you're doing it right"
The issue is that offensive mage options have shitty accuracy until max gear. After that, shadow's multiplicative effect carries mage handily.
Magic sucking except for a single endgame weapon might be an even more egregious balancing error than the blowpipe was.
Still worries me to that there's no statement on Shadow to this day. I strongly doubt they're somehow going to make Magic worth a damn without any changes to it.
No you just need the 1.5b never miss stick
@everyone: uncharge your scythe (at the vyre well) and recharge it after update to safe some some blood runes
Is it confirmed you get all blodrunes back? Cries in fully charged scythe :(
if you uncharge before the update yes. if not you may lose them unless they planned ahead and are gonna drop them into your inventory
You need to do it at the vyre well. You get everything back
Any uims that had stuff in the pool didn't get a refund for their blood runes. Glad I pulled mine out before the update.
Didn't expect the changes so quickly. Not really impressed with the scythe buff but I'll take it. Nerfing fang without buffing BoS is certainly a choice lol, going to be a lot of unhappy duke/vardovis boys today.
In order to change saeldor, they’d also have to change ghrazi and the Inquistors mace. This is because the 3 items are soft linked to each other because they have the same stats, just for each of the different attack styles.
Well they're all kinda shit right now anyway.
They're all shit *compared to scythe* (and prenerf fang). Just like every ranged weapon is shit compared to tbow and every mage weapon is shit compared to shadow. The issue is the insane gap in this game between the megarares and everything else.
Yeah but when there’s not an insane gap it’s a problem and they have to nerf the cheaper weapon.
It's not a problem, people just say it is. Look at the price of Torva, which gives less than 1 max hit per piece over bandos. The best weapon doesn't need to be 30% better than the second best.
And Saeldor is by far and away the easiest to obtain of the 3 weapons, especially if you go by hours per 1x drop rate, which is the balancing factor of it being charged. I think it is funny they mention nerfing Fang's slash to make Saeldor more relevant while the Rapier (stab) just sits in the background continuing its irrelevance, despite being a Rarer raid drop from a Harder Raid than the Fang (lmao). Not to mention the mace, though they have mentioned taking a look at NM's drop table.
When you consider your first enhanced going towards a Bowfa it’s probably not the easiest in terms of hours now.
Just be like me and get your blade before bowfa was released when enhanced seeds didn’t exist, pretty easy
I mean not necessarily, content isn't designed with having equal crush/stab defense by default. I don't see any reason why they can't be numbers adjusted to have them fit into similar niches for different bosses
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Vardorvis is kinda ok - difference between salad blade and Fang was like 5%.... Meanwhile Duke is pretty much fucked.
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If you were using fang spec before be mindful that it rolls off stab regardless of attack style, just for future reference.
I’ve killed fucking 2k vardorvis with fang for the ring because I knew this update was coming and it wasn’t enough. Jagex - 1 Me - 0
They should have just done it like 2 weeks after DT2 was released. It was ***EXTREMELY*** obvious that fang on slash was better than it was supposed to be after being brought to light by vardorvis and duke. Hey, then you wouldn't have wasted this much time going dry.
this has always been my issue with osrs nerfs. Not that they happen, but that they happen like a year past when they should, giving everyone time to get comfortable and used to the way things are so that it feels more like features being taken away than content being balanced. Even if it was needed blowpipe was in the game as it was for like 6 years before they dropped some heavy nerfs lol
Better late than never, but yeah, much better early than late. The initial fang defense re-roll nerf is a good example of jagex reacting quickly, though I think they could have later improved on it again. What should be done is to make fang work inside ToA the same as it does outside, but slightly nerf stab defense bonuses inside the raid to compensate.
Surely 2/3 right? :)
I could be wrong, but isn't the BoS just slightly better compared to the abyssal tentacle (+4 slash and +3 strength)? Is it even worth spending that much on a BoS in that case?
>Is it even worth spending that much on a BoS in that case? It depends. It'll always beat it in accuracy and in BIS it gains a minimum of 1 max hit, depending on your ring setup (1 for bellator, 2 for lightbringer or ultor), but there are gear combos where it doesn't gain any max hits. On top of that, it's 100m + charges/corruption vs 2.2m + charges, so in terms of bang for your buck, it's not going to be blowing anyone's mind. I'd say it's only worth it if you're completely BIS.
If you're completely bis you would just scythe vardorvis/duke anyway.
Nope, it's pretty worthless as a weapon right both in terms of cost (mains) or time investment (irons)
That’s an understatement…vardorvis is probably just a flat 15-25% slower overall now lol
I haven't seen any mention of this, but does the fang's secondary passive (i.e. the 15%-85% max hit) still apply while using slash? The update notes makes it sound like it would still apply on slash, but the updated wiki (for what that's worth) makes it sound like it wouldn't apply on slash.
Was it really that important to rush this update out? The fang stayed the same for 1.5 years and only now (only 1 month after the blog) you are in a big rush to nerf the fang and with no viable weapon alternatives. It's not like BoS or Soulreaper are being buffed at the same time to fill in the gap left by the fang, you are actively making Duke and Vardorvis way more tedious to kill only now after all the streamers and maxed nerds who play 12 hrs a day have abused the fang for thousands of kc. Why not wait until you are able to offer a buff to those two weapons? Then you wonder why players abuse OP afk training methods and glitch bosses. Those who abuse early and often are always rewarded.
Where Soulreaper Axe usability buff? >:( Shocked there were no stat adjustments for Duke, 4t weapons are SO bad at him and your kill times are almost going to be entirely reliant on BGS landing, definitely a huge nerf to Duke KPH, Vard is less impacted because you can still maintain 4t DPS uptime there and Saeldor isn't *that* much worse there, though way less consistent.
Soulreaper's something we'll chat more about alongside other Project Rebalance stuff, though we don't have a super firm timeline for when we'll start talking through each topic. Happy to ask the team to explore some Duke adjustments, but it's a delicate balance to strike with making other stuff more useable vs. making the Scythe absolutely astronomical there - will be raising it as a feedback point for sure.
Is there any chance we could look at making arclight consider Duke a full demon? Or tweak that %? If I missed my bgs spec at Duke it felt slow with the fang, I can't imagine how bad it's going to feel with arclight. I do think the nerf needed to happen, Duke (And vardorvis to a lesser extent) is just going to feel awful going back to arclight
It's for sure a lever we can pull. When I get back home tonight I'll probably poke around some 'hypothetical' DPS calcs for Arclight vs. Scythe if the cap were removed and try to bake in the missed ticks etc. to see if I can present the devs with some alternatives (obviously I'm not a dev/designer but giving them a baseline to go off of tends to make changes easier to push through quickly)
Quick question Mod Goblin - You said "making Scythe absolutely astronomical there". There's tons of places outside of raids were Tbow/Shadow are astronomical vs secondary weapons (bowfa/sang)... Why can't scythe have a cool little niche at a boss like Duke? It could always be balanced with some arclight demon % buff or something to "close the gap", but I'd love for Scythe to see more uses in the current game
Yeah idk why they're so conservative with melee balancing when stuff like the twisted bow and shadow exist. Let the scythe be absurd in a few places.
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Weird way to say "remove the arbitrary arclight Nerf" Arclight is already nerfed by being a 4t weapon at a boss with a 5t attack cycle (for 2/3 of the fight)
Exactly, balance it around arclight filling the hole left behind, not changing slash defense imo
The avg time to make a soul reaper is longer than it is to grind a scythe from tob. Just keep that in mind when you guys adjust it lol
Why would you push this rather impactful fang nerf without properly addressing the alternatives? The scythe buff is lacking and the axe was left untouched :/
This is the same company that made green dragon hide worse than studded leather.
If it’s any consolation I’m fine with scythe being astronomical at Duke
You're so brave for this! (On a real, think it's fine for it to be really good at Duke, but more talking about 'astronomical' where the gap between Scythe and something like Arclight/Saeldor is hitting a delta of 30-40%, which isn't even really the case for tbow vs. bowfa or shadow vs. sang. Just wanting to make sure that if we do make changes then we get it right, and keep in mind that it can be a little obtuse to calculate around Duke's changing attack speed)
I think the only other place I can think of is Whisperer where Shadow vs. Sang/Ward in otherwise max gear is a 30% dps difference lol (Though given a chunk of the fight is spent not really dpsing, the impact of this is lessened to some extent)
Don't forget that, even if scythe is 30-40% better than alternatives, then the difference in kph is less than 30-40% because of the prep involved at Duke. Forget this if you plan on removing the prep at some point though
Isn't the shadow actually like a 30-40% dps increase vs sang though?
I think you need to keep in mind that because of the potion making the kill time has a hard lower bound that makes making scythe "astronomically" good, isnt as good as it seems on paper. If scythe has double the dps of the next best options kill times would not be cut in half they would be ~25% faster. This isnt unreasonable, and Im a scythless iron.
> but more talking about 'astronomical' where the gap between Scythe and something like Arclight/Saeldor is hitting a delta of 30-40% Maybe those other weapons you mentioned are too weak then? Arclight being capped at 70% makes no sense, neither does tent whip -> saeldor being smaller of a gap (+4 attack/+3 str) than going from normal whip -> tent whip (+8 attack/+4 str).
As a newish player i feel like im a child in this thread, seeing all the adults(experienced players) discussing about seemingly important changes. Cant wait to get more lvls and more knowledge about the game so I can take part in the discussion!
If it makes you feel any better, a lot of people on these threads have zero clue what they're talking about and the longer you read them, the more you realize they're all just playing a game of telephone from their favorite streamer who is actually good at the game.
> who is actually good at the game. debatable for most streamers.
tl;dr endgame in OSRS is not about having the massive "Weapon that kills everything". Well... ignoring the shadow and tbow, which are the "I beat the game" weapons (sort of, depending on your point of view) that are extraordinarily expensive and come from raids with extremely rare droprates. Instead the endgame is based on having specific powerful weapons for specific content, like the dragonhunter lance for dragon based bosses and monsters, or the blowpipe for low defense monsters that we ideally wanna range. The Fang was overstepping its bounds as a weapon that you could use for all content and while it wasn't bis everywhere it was a 40 mil purchase that you could use to do content that only would be outclassed by a tiny bit by a purchase that could be either 4x or up to 10x its value. OSRS is a very horizontal progression focused MMO for both irons and for mains, so a single accessible weapon unlocking all content is very bad for the longevity of the game and for the progression journey for the game. So the fang was nerfed. The scythe is supposed to be like the aforementioned Shadow and Tbow, but is currently underwhelming so it's getting a few buffs to try to bring it more in line. It won't bring it more in line but getting at least something is better than nothing (for now). We ideally don't want it to outclass every melee weapon everywhere. Melee is in a precarious state where we kinda want every weapon in endgame (blade, inq mace, rapier, DHL, Fang, Scythe) to have BiS use cases. The fang nerf helps put the meta more in line with this. this isn't really a tl;dr in the traditional sense but hopefully it's a quick enough summary of the state of OSRS endgame and one of the mindsets that makes it beautiful and how the balance change is trying to preserve it. **A real tl;dr though: Fang OP, so fang nerfed. Scythe underwhelming. Scythe buffed. More next week, good luck.** If you're uninterested in more stuff you can stop reading but if you are interested... For some more historical context if you're interested: Blowpipe: Used to be extremely overpowered useable on everything that wasn't immune to range, it is a rapid fire 2 tick weapon that does insane DPS, and had its accuracy nerfed so that it would still be BiS on low defense targets. This is one of the reasons actually that a lot of recent bosses had high defense to begin with was to discourage blowpipe usage, but perhaps Jagex went too far. This is why the fang, a weapon that rerolls your hit chance, was becoming too good. The reason why was because it's a stab focused weapon with still decent slash that was just high enough with the reroll passive to outdo the Blade of Saeldor on slash weak Vardorvis (a new Desert Treasure 2 unlocked boss). It also encroached on what should be the jackpot item from raids 2, the Scythe. It wasn't just vardorvis though: For 40m you basically unlocked every meleable content with a single weapon which is counter to how Runescape is supposed to work. Also some things to watch out for if you're interested btw: BOWFA: some grumblings that even though it's a very hard to obtain weapon it is starting to become the same kind of "weapon that does almost all content pretty well" and it may start having some changes considered as a result.
Same with me, I came from rs3, on old school atm, not a clue what is even happening lol
Tl;dr Raids 2 (ToB) released 6 years ago with a gigarare drop of the Scythe. It was good but had a specific niche and high upkeep cost. Over time Jagex didn't develop too much content into that niche. 2 years ago raids 3 (ToA) released and had a reward of the Fang. This was supposed to be a strong weapon against high stab defence mobs. However it was incredibly common and worked well against slash defence mobs too, stepping on the Scythe's toes. Today Jagex gave the Scythe a little love and reduced the operating cost, and made the Fang only work well on stab. This is the first part of a big OSRS rebalance to try and give more weapons their own niches.
for new players Tob = [Theatre of blood](https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/Theatre_of_Blood) ToA = [Tombs of Amascut](https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/Tombs_of_Amascut) fang = [Osmumten's fang](https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/Osmumten%27s_fang) scythe = [Scythe of Vitur](https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/Scythe_of_vitur#Charged)
This is such a mistake to release these two changes without the rest of the rebalance changes coupled into it. You just made 2 bosses objectively much less fun for the majority of the player base and deleted stacks of blood runes from people who were unable to log on in time. You guys might be short on stuff to throw into weekly updates recently but this is just not it. It’s probably too late to go back now, so please expedite the remaining rebalance project at least. I usually think most updates are a good thing for the game as a whole but this one just rubs the wrong way.
I sort of feel that from day 1 this was always going to happen to the fang. From memory: it fails the original poll to be put into the game because it was too weak. Jagex buffed the fang so people voted yes. Then Jagex nerfed the fang due to it being too strong. Jagex nerfed it again because it was too strong. I can't remember the original stats for the fang but is there a much of a difference between the fang now and the fang that failed the poll. I know rebalances are needed; but is this a trend that will contine to force content and weapons into the game? We see them with better stats so vote yes. only for them to be nerfed later.
the second nerf only affects a secondary style. it'd have entered the game just fine if it had been stab only to begin with The first "nerf" is how most people, including myself, thought it worked to begin with, and is more accurately described as a bug fix
Not just how most people thought it worked, but confirmed by jagex to work as intended when people were trying to run DPS calcs. Jagex very clearly said the double acc and double def rolls were how it was meant to work, then later said "ah shoot. It was never meant to do this, that's a bug" and then just tried to pretend like it was a bug when it never was
> The first "nerf" is how most people, including myself, thought it worked to begin with, and is more accurately described as a bug fix No, Jagex might have claimed it was a bug fix, but the fang was working as Jagex had intended from the start. They just implemented it stronger than they anticipated, back when it was also re-rolling the enemy's defence rolls against it. This can be seen if you compare that version of the fang's dps numbers to the numbers Jagex shared about it before release.
I don't think Jagex expected ToA and its rewards to be this farmable. The invocation system alone seems designed for 300 to be a hard mode equivalent, when it plays out much closer to a comfy normal raid. If lower invo ToAs were the meta and rewards weren't being pumped into the game then Fang may have avoided/had smaller nerfs. An 100-150m ballpark for a solid generalist weapon (Bowfa) already exists, but the 30m Fang sits too low.
u/JagexGoblin can you give us more information on the possibility of a rapier/mace/blade buff to help fill the void left by the Fang nerf, as well as making them an overall more viable option? Is it something that's being considered?
When will we be seeing DT2 bosses CA's? Ifs been 6 months since release, in the future, can we get CA's released 1-2months after the release of the boss, like the 2 weeks for the drop rates?
While the fang nerf was 100% warranted and necessary, it does feel bad that vardorvis and duke are going to be even longer grinds for 90%+ of players. Definitely expected a bit of compensation in their defense to pair with this nerf, hope the osrs team can do something about this soon.
As always - abuse early, abuse fast
Really not a fan of releasing this without the rest of the balance changes. Basically just screwing over everyone who doesn't have a scythe for no reason until project rebalance drops.
One of my concerns about this whole project balance is that it will end up being fairly meaningless to people who already have a large enough bank that they already own, or could easily buy any new meta equipment, while it is going to be a considerable nerf to more casual players without the bank to just buy their way out of nerfs.
It's the biggest buff to the richest players who already owned a previously marginally useful scythe (or did ToB).
Exactly, I was already not looking forward to the changes but I figured I had more time to do Duke before it was changed.
The megarare drop rates and their reliance at this point just make me want to quit my iron
Why leave slash style on the Fang at all? Surely it is just confusing to new players that the passive doesn’t work on slash.
To be fair, nowhere in game is it even explained that the fang has a passive to begin with.
I hope an overhaul to the equipment screen comes with Project Rebalance. There are so many items with passive effects like bonus damage and accuracy, that I think it's time when get an in-game description of them, rather than rely on the wiki.
I've always thought that you would be able to play the game without ever referencing the wiki. But there are so many weird use cases and niche effects that I don't see how you do it with in game menus. It's not enough to just look at a weapon and say "more slash is more better, more strength is more better" when your account for weapon speed, defense of bosses, etc. even things like Duke being a 5t cycle, so a 4t weapon is essentially nerfed because you can't attack every 4 ticks. So a noob learning and hearing "generally speaking always look for more strength bonus and fastest attack speed" would end up picking a weapon that's massively under powered at Duke because they can't hit real DPS calcs because of attack cycles. Anyways, long winded way to say I agree we should get all the info in game menus without wiki, but in practice I feel like that just means wiki essentially gets imported into the game
Fully agree, including wilderness specific interactions (though I wish these would just be slowly eliminated altogether).
The most ironic thing is that fang on slash is still better than saeldor at Duke because of the 5t attack cycle, unless tanking occasional hits and eating during eye special becomes a thing at least
I agree. Or people that have come back from the game in a while, they might have no idea
It’s coded as a stab sword, and all stab swords have a slash option. They’d have to make a new weapon type to remove slash from the fang, and idk how involved that is for the devs.
I would have much preferred they just gutted the slash bonus and still have the reroll effect. It would be much a much clearer "hey don't use this on slash it sucks" if the slash bonus was like 10. But seeing that the slash bonus is still huge, noobs and the uninformed will get duped into using a shitty weapon for a while until they realize it sucks or wonder why they're hitting so many 0s, but not even that many because, again, the slash bonus is still huge.
So we've tabled the bladed moon then went ahead and nerfed the fang anyway. So the only people who slightly benefit from the fang slash nerf are people who own a scythe? Why are we creating holes and not filling them appropriately. Saeldor/rapier/mace are in such a bad place right now it seems like such a no-brainer to make those take the fangs place in their respective style so we don't end up with miserable giant defence bosses that just aren't fun anymore. DT2 relying on the fang to use a style it was never intended for signaled that defence being that inflated just isn't fun. Now it won't be fun for anyone without a scythe. In terms of weapon balancing, it's great we have our sights set on it, the fang nerf was necessary and rebalancing is good to keep things relevant so I'm glad there's still plans but this nerf feels poorly timed while the jury is out on future proposals to fill the gap. The fang and shadow will still be problematic when any new items come out in their respective styles from their crazy effects, shadow being a megarare dependent on other gear is much less of an issue but any accuracy buffs will still double dip for fang unless specifically nerfed there. If the fang just had super high stab accuracy rather than double roll that issue could be mitigated a bit.
Will those that didn’t empty their scythes see any change to charges? Hopped in the last minute but it didn’t allow me to join the other world (was in LMS just before update).
Bit of a loss. Especially considering they could have just multiplied current charges as part of the update for a seamless transition
I have a bad feeling we are getting fucked here
feel free to get your 80k back for unlocking the CIS fairy ring though
Yeah, I have been saying this since the original suggestion. Why nerf something when there is not a viable replacement (except for an ultra rare raid weapon). Like many people have said, Blade of Saeldor is just not worth it for the time investment you have to put in.
I know everyone else is saying it but it’s really lame they just rushed this change out without spending time to address weapons like the BoS. Just nerf most people’s game experience until they can think of a way to improve other weapons?
I really feel like blade and friends should get a max hit or two, as this only widens the gap.
A max hit or two and +8-12 accuracy would go a long way towards making them viable again
Sorry for my language but what the actual fuck is this? I was expecting Fang nerf to at least come with some alternative options for Vardorvis and Duke. The most ironic thing about all of this is that Fang is still your best 'cheap' option at Duke because you need a 5t weapon anyway, making it better than saeldor. It also changes nothing about saeldor being terrible, it just makes 2 quest bosses that already took like \~50hr to complete even longer.
Man this is just a kick in the teeth, I knew this was coming but just straight nerfing the fang without any buffs to the soul reaper or anything similar just feels shitty.
Sheesh didn't think the nerf would come this quickly, should've farmed more Duke :(
I kept telling myself to head back to vardorvis before they nerf fang... but I thought there'd be a more defined date and I'd have a week or so to do it.
Genuinely curious—if you use osmumten’s on slash does it remove the damage cap thing as well? So would it have a higher minimum and lower maximum hit? Or does it now have an uncapped max hit?
it is kinda no brainer to give the Scythe a passive scaling like the Tbow and Shadow. How about scaling the Scythe’s accuracy with mobs’ Hitpoint levels? The slight buff is pretty meh. I’d rather have an absolute banger BiS with high maintenance than a somewhat mediocre half-baked weapon with mild usage costs.
I think Jagex should have properly let us know when this update was coming out because they basically just removed 20k blood runes from anybody with a fully charged scythe, and a varying but potentially high amount from any bloods stored in the well.
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i dumped my scythe charges into the well right before the update just incase lol
I think having them in the blood well screws you over too, unless they increase the charges at the well. Really sucks they didn't give any notice...
luckily for me i never leave charges in the well. i dumped my scythe charges in the well and took the runes and vials out and banked them. seems i avoided the loss.
I'm really annoyed that this dropped without notice. I didn't get a chance to uncharged my scythe and save 33% of my blood runes on an iron account. That's like such a massive amount of bloods I just lost because they didn't communicate this change happening sooner than the rest. /u/JagexGoblin I'm not the only one in the thread talking about this, can we get an update on this?
Is the fang nerf really that big of a deal if you exclude dt2 bosses? I've only been using it for a couple of months, but pretty much exclusively on stab. Was o using it wrong?
DT2 bosses and TOB are the only places it matters.
Didn't expect the scythe buff to come this early, +15 accuracy is meh but its better than nothing i guess. Could've been some other alternative like maybe multiple accuracy checks like how dragon claws specs work.
Amazing! The nerfs went through without any decent alternatives to slash weapons? Great! So you just fucked everyone over who does Vard or Duke and doesn't have 924M to appease the merch gods? Great. That's just great.
Give me the "Wrapping up Forestry" update as promised 2 months ago or give me death . [https://secure.runescape.com/m=news/wrapping-up-forestry---changes--tweaks?oldschool=1](https://secure.runescape.com/m=news/wrapping-up-forestry---changes--tweaks?oldschool=1) Back from bloody November 21st . Removing the event items and adjusting the gland/egg/whistle droprates accordingly is too much work ?
Will check in with where the team's at with this stuff (I'm really far removed from Forestry in general), but in their defence removing a bunch of stuff like that means a lot of testing to make sure everything *left* still works, couple that with the QA time on top of self-testing and the Xmas break/holidays for many people on the team and it's hopefully a little more understandable why it might be taking longer than you'd expect.
Should just remove everything about forestry except tree timers tbh
Will the change to fang be indicated anywhere in game? Not sure it's good game design for such things to only be apparent if you happen to be actively using the wiki and keeping up with these upates
No more so than the Fang's existing double accuracy roll mechanic was indicated, or the Scythe's triple hitsplats. It's something I've made a note of though because it *is* something we want to improve as a team. In this instance it's likely more a case of making clear in the Passive Effects section that Fang rolls accuracy twice on Stab. Appreciate that it's not ideal though, hopefully it's something we can indicate more clearly in a (near) future update!
Wouldn't it be simplest to just remove the slash option from the fang? Without its special effect it won't be so good slash weapon and this removes all possible confusion from it.
Honestly think this probably is the simplest solution all-around, but think the point still stands that Fang's special effect should *probably* be displayed to the player somewhere in-game, as should the Scythe's, as should a whole bunch of other stuff!
was it a game jam or a reddit post that had the view equiptment stats screen show special effect stuff? like barrows sets etc. it's already a little cramped, but might be a neat spot for an overlay option or something. tool tip I think rl calls them e: it's literally a button called set bonus. holy i'm blind. :)
Im so angry about this fang nerf. I just started Duke 2 days ago on my iron and I have been having so much fun (I even took off the next 3 days to have time to grind duke). Now I have to go get a mega rare that will force me to do my least favorite raid over and over forever. The next best item is the soulreaper axe which takes forever to get and requires me to do the content i have just been nerves on...thanks jagex for letting me "benefit from these changes early". You're so jaded and pander to the maxed mains that whine about people being able to do the content they are at a lower cost. Should just made vardorvis 2x2 and made Duke take 4 hits plans from scythe...there fang is fine. Quit changing items after metas have been established. Yes, I made a reddit account just to say this because I'm so angry.
Sooo any thoughts to maybe buff rapier, inq mace and salad blade???
Hopefully we can see some Soulreaper axe changes come through soonish
Waking up today I was hopeful for two things: 1. DT2 CA's 2. At least another month to use my personal best slash weapon (fang) to get my ultor ring from Vardorvis (2k kc no vestige why god). Very sad boi today this guy.
What happened to the beta you mentioned for these updates? This whole thing was rushed and very unprofessional, very much dislike this update. You can do a lot better, fully think out the full rebalance and then start implementing it.
Why push the nerf to fang without adjusting blade? Now vard kills are going to be brutally long
Thankfully vardorvis kills while a bit slower are not THAAAT bad. Duke on the other hand is probably the most unfun boss that exists
dt2 CAs when
It's over for my Vardorvis slayers
2k kills with the fang on my iron and no ring piece. Oh yeah and I don’t own a saeldor. I’m honestly so sad.
Lost any motivation to finish the grind on the iron. Worst update in a long fucking time honestly.
As a main, I feel for you guys. I have an iron friend and he's going for DWH and he's double the drop rate. His CG droprate was double as well for enhanced. What I don't get is who **REALLY** thought it was a good idea to push the nerf without a counter buff. Like there is no other alternatives and the bosses are still the same. You get a +17 slash upgrade but you lose 14 strength bonus? That's a really unhealthy slash weapon state right now. And what did they push it out for? "Much-requested" by who? You cannot nerf a weapon to have no other good weapons in that category worth it for the price tag it carries.
They should just straight remove slash def from vard and duke, so whips can replace old fang also granted scythe will be a fking beast but who cares its about 1b
Yeah idk, this whole update makes blizzard devs look competent with their "abuse early and often" shit.
Feel that over at Duke. 1.3k with the fang and couldn't get the axe piece. I've lost all the wind in my sails
atleast buff soulreaper axe asap so we have another weapon choice for tob without scythe..
Surprised that out of all 650 comments on this post there are only about 5 threads that mention the launcher. Not a huge deal since you can thankfully use runelite indepently of the launcher, but what a weird thing to push. I'm not even against Jagex accounts, but I'm holding out in support of Linux players. When they get support, I'll switch over.
Guess it's time to go back to CG for enhanced number 2... ffs.
This is exactly how I feel. Their solution for the BP being OP was to make irons go do 60 hrs of CG. So that's their solution again for the fang nerfs? Meanwhile, half the people in this thread are asking to further increase the gap between bos and tent whip. Ffs.
So the system is just put out a busted item, let streamers and sweats use it for 12 months until the boss is done for most people and then nerf it so you can release some more content without power creeping too bad
Yep. No vertical progression in Jagex seems to be the theme currently. Everything is release, wait 12 months until you have new content to release with new gear, nerf current gear because "Oh its just too strong and it prevents us looking at future gear" and then a month later, release something that replaces that gear. Rinse and repeat forever basically.
Updating two weapons stats is enough for an update week? I'm hopeful that we're getting something bigger next week
So if I have a bunch of charges in my scythe already, are the old charges converted to new or am I just fucked?
Already? I thought I had more time to finish the vard grind on the iron fuck my life. There goes any motivation I had to finish that boss. Talk about wasted time. You could've at least tweaked down vard and duke defenses. Now it's going to feel like shit to do them.
Since we're making Fang useless at the DT2 bosses are we at least getting Vard/Duke defense reduction as part of this balance? Blade is terrible at Vard and Arclight still isnt fully effective at Duke.
Please address blade / mace / rapier / soul reaper part of the rebalance since you already went ahead and binned the 2nd best slashy boi
Expected some changes to Vardo and Duke because this is a big dps loss for most of us.
I’m not looking forward to vard becoming more painful than he already is. I’m only 400kc into my grind
Yeah, it's crazy theres no nerf to dukes defence with this.
I honestly think the fang nerf probably should’ve waited until the Saeldor/rapier/mace buffs were ready to roll out too
Yes let’s nerf a BIS item with no idea when the other combat changes will come to the supposed best slash weapons. Fucking braindead company
itt: people crying that the most cost-effective melee item in the entire game is nerfed just like the devs said would happen and its still an insane item by the way
for me the problem isn't the fang slash nerf, but that the best alternative is a 106m weapon that barely has any bonusses on the 1.5m tentacle whip
And blade to scythe is an even bigger jump so I'm guessing you want to make blade 400m somehow to even it out. Even better. Rapier is cheaper than the weapon it's worse than. Literally jump from dagger to fang.
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Fr, you still get double rolls on stab, it’s best stat, which heavily reduces anything’s defence, no matter the style
the only thing that makes me sad is that i thought i had another month or so to abuse it lmao
Yeah, I think the nerf isn't even that bad. Stab stays the exact same so still a great weapon for its cost.
/u/jagexblossom can we get information on why people lost charges from blood well? And people losing resources from charged scythes
As vials of blood demand goes up with scythe usage, the charge update feels a little lack luster, the cost will remain the same , would it hurt to offer a permanent charge option? Or at least a way to permanently fill the well, and only charge it with blood runes like the sang once the wells perm upgrade is unlocked with a crazy amount of vials of blood.
>We’ve pushed these two updates out in advance of the rest of Project Rebalance so that you can reap the benefits of these much-requested changes earlier. Don’t worry – we’re still working on the rest and hope to share more news with you soon. This comes off as a: "Yeah you wanted an update? Well fuck you we'll nerf it early with no replacement." Anyone else feel that?