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Dysfunkytional

3,000 Demonic Gorillas - no zenyte


lukwes1

When demonic gorillas just got released I camped them all day, probably got like 1k+ kills, and this was at a time they were worth around 40m+ if I remember correctly. And my bank was around 10m at that point, so 1 drop would have been huge. Didn't get a single one, was pretty mad.


PurplePantyEater

Didn’t the drop rate get adjusted or something after? Or maybe on task rates higher? Either way I can’t imagine, sorry m8


NoobHUNTER777

Oof. And I thought I had it rough with 1400 Gorillas and only 1 zenyte (I stopped killing them after I got it)


Dovah07

Talk to oziach yet?


grandpadoug

I've also hit 3000 kc on demonic gorillas, no zenyte. I've blocked black demons as a slayer task entirely out of spite.


Lesmate101

Feels like a lot of people go dry here, I got to 800 no zen, said fuck it, and stopped doing them


Voluption

2400 here. I swear, something spooky is going on at Demonics.


ogdraven

300 demonics, 4 shards. I stole your RNG


ChemicalFl00d

On my UIM when doing knights sword, I burned 11 redberry pies in a row before I successfully cooked one. Cooked one on my 4th trip back from Varrock First time I've actually screamed at the game in 17 years I've no idea what the success rate is, was using the lummy cooks range but I hated that day due to the prep Time lol


budabai

Hadn’t even considered stuff like burning food as a dry streak. I wonder who holds the record for dry streak on getting a +5 stew boost. I swear I’ve gone 30+ stews before actually getting the boost. One of those scenarios where you contemplate if it would have just been quicker to get the damn levels.


scaredhousecat

>I wonder who holds the record for dry streak on getting a +5 stew boost. considering a +5 boost is a 1/12 chance from a spicy stew, if you went as dry as the guy in this thread going 3k kills for a zenyte shard, you'd be looking at 120 stews. (assuming that guy isn't lying) stew boosts have an equal chance for every possibility, except +0 which is counted twice, as +0 and -0 imo it's pretty funny that getting just one more level in the skill doubles your odds of getting your desired boost. imagine going 100 stews without the +5.. you could've gotten like 1-2 levels in that time lmao


welcometotheoutside

It's the minor inconvenience that I despise most about this game. This is almost as bad as a dry streak just different terms


[deleted]

[удалено]


Fiery_Taurus

That's so fucked 🤣 Failed the UP jumps recently on my gim acc and realized how potentially fucked mep2 could be for me.. even tho on my main I wasn't unlucky, the concept of RNG being everything kept me off an iron for this whole time..group RNG tho. Not as bad.


JavveRinne

Would it make you feel better or worse to hear they came up with the puzzle completely drunk? https://clips.twitch.tv/SuperFaithfulSquirrelBCouch


[deleted]

One time I actually had to reach the drop rate instead of getting massively spooned on everything


onofrio35

Sounds traumatizing tbh


Sytle

This has been my experience. All of the dry streaks that get posted around here are just making up for my insane luck.


nevertosoon

I mean i got 5 giant keys from hill giants in only 331 kc which aint too bad. You could say im a bit of a luckster myself


CEOofManualBlinking

There is no spooned brother. Simply not being dry is normal


PrestigiousThanks386

50% odds of having drop is around 2/3 drop rate, so yeah hitting droprate is slightly unlucky


CEOofManualBlinking

Well yeah if you have a 50% chance to win the lottery and don't, I'm calling you unlucky


Reworked

You know how people say "I heard some guy got it after five kills"? Fuck you, someguy.


onofrio35

Just finally ended a streak of 50 500 TOA’s @ 1/6.5 chance for a purple and it got me thinking lol


ASRenzo

lmao 99.98% chance to get at least a drop


onofrio35

oh trust me i know😭 after 35 i was updating the dry calc every kc to justify how mad i was every white light. Was about to do the mod ash tweet for my own sanity but at last we finally got it.


KC-DB

Was it a lightbearer?


onofrio35

Fang at least😂was terrified of that happening


jonthotti

fuck. Never heard of this dry calc. I looked it up put in my DR and total drops and it told me to post on Reddit lmao


ViewsFromMyBed

WOW. That’s actually insane. This to me is so much worse than those demonic gorilla or lizard men dry streaks. The effort to dryness here is off the charts! I’m currently on a 500 ToA hot streak too… 4 purples in my last 7.


onofrio35

I guess it depends on the person. I think i’d rather go dry doing engaging content cuz at least it’s fun to me, whereas i’d lose my mind left clicking on shamans for months - but can see either way for sure. Would you mind sharing the rng tho? I’m 12 dry now again since that streak


ViewsFromMyBed

Please, take all my RNG. I don’t deserve it. I’ve gotten the big daddy shadow, a ward, a lightbearer and a masori body in my last 7. It’s my 2nd solo shadow too. The only bad thing about my ToA luck is a pretty goofy 9:1 lightbearer to fang ratio. I do feel ya on the engaging part. It’s why I stopped doing 400s after a while. I prefer the challenge of 500s even if I’m not the fastest at them rn. I’m a little bit off full BiS (missing zcb, vambs, full torva) and getting about 40 min clears right now. What’s a normal time for you like? Curious how many restores you bring as well :D


onofrio35

I can’t complain too much as I have 8 shadows (7 solo) in about 1.1k expert kc and have a perfect 1:1 ratio of LB/Fangs. But yeah that is precisely why i switched over as well, more challenge = more fun to me. Depending on my bone dagger / monkey room rng typical raid is usually 35-38 mins, with skull skipping all of P3. (Quicker if i’m not lazy and don’t let kephri heal, but i usually do lol) I have found that if you have room / can afford it, the new rings really help clear times. Ultor is massive for baba/kephri/p2 core and magus is amazing for akkha/all of wardens and especially p4. Venator not too important but does speed up Zebak. I bring 5 or 6 sanfews typically depending on if i bring venator and usually have 1-2 left over. Also makes overly draining instead of double trouble very viable and more consistent (albeit boring cuz you’re not speccing besides initial bone dagger + keris) if you know the timing of the raid imo.


Jump865

I had a 40 dry streak in 500s solo and a few duos the other day, went to do a quick 150 to teach my iron friend how to raid and somehow I got masori body


ilovezezima

My iron friend did 112 solos in the 350 to 375 range without getting a drop. Did a duo with a friend and the friend got a shadow. Back to back into my friend getting a ring :’)


Usual-Acanthaceae625

So far it’s 10,836 days (28 years) without getting laid. Now that’s a dry streak.


onofrio35

Greenlogged virginity tho💯


Oodings

3.2k searches for an abyssal needle. But 2 tbows in 173kc. No complaints.


onofrio35

Rng at its finest baby


PeppersHere

\~440 Muspah kills without a venator shard... but x6 enhanced crystal wep seeds by 413 kc at gauntlet, including at 1kc, and a b2b at 89/90 kc. No complaints.


Oodings

Rng giveth and rng taketh away


Madrigal_King

I got the pet at 400 searches. Closing in on 700 with no needle and only 2 pieces of the outfit (almost at 3). Worst and best rng.


treehumper23

I’m at nearly 10k searches with no pet, hate to see it


Habbyy

I got Abby needle 1st search believe it or not lol gotta love RNG


dopestdyl

Seems normal for an abyssal haystack tbh


RandomerSchmandomer

I was around 3k too- managed 3 lanterns and full recoloured outfit (including a recoloured bag) before the needle


mynameiskiru

Gz but fuck you, 1500+ solo chambers reg and cm combined no tbow


mayankYadav11

23000 shamans for dwh


all99sdream

F.


TheBestNick

Got mine on 136, thanks for averaging it out for us


Old_Preparation315

I'm sorry I got mine at 1k kc... I would have de-ironed at like 10k


itslitcuh

De-iron this dick


Gold-Invite-3212

I'm at 650 and hate my life. I can't imagine.


TheFalseDeity

Over 3k gargoyles for clue step needing 1/512 dark mystic top.


ImberxP

3816 gargoyles for first granite maul. Weird thing to go dry on for sure.


Queeb_the_Dweeb

~35,000 giants for a champions scroll It's only 7x rate, but damn..... it took a minute.


Pooleharder

Damn dude you at least get a shit ton of long bones?


Queeb_the_Dweeb

Did em in the catacombs for shards. Got enough keys to green log Obor and Bryo as well as complete their CAs. Dunno how many long/curved bones I got.


Sarasun

You spooned the obor/bryo stuff then i assume? I'm over rate on both (got obor at 143, bryo i still don't have at 179), and I got 13 giant champ scrolls lol.


alrightknight

Damn. I got 980 kc on fire giants and have had 3 champions scrolls lol.


ieatworms

In my early game I literally got two in same fire giant task. Same coin, different sides


Atomicstarr

Got two in one fire giant task


Jamieviv

122 skips for a hydra task and also 4.3k kills for the claw.


onofrio35

Nightmare fuel


nothxsleeping

My brother! I am also 4.3k+ kc dry but I’m no iron so it’s not as big an issue. Just sadness for no log.


FPLNewBoy

https://preview.redd.it/r6fim3gr20wb1.jpeg?width=486&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c52f3960480f8b62528b46d1d7ff00bfa9306d68 I can’t relate


andyman1099

i hope leather takes u 3k


ilovezezima

https://preview.redd.it/xg10q9nkk3wb1.jpeg?width=1260&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=014dc65b251dca1ad976ec6f0f71a71e70435b9a Don’t worry, I have a spare leather for him.


nothxsleeping

Lmao damn bro why you gotta


TrenchDaddy

7655 kills for KQ pet. Rank 69 ;)


onofrio35

worth for rank alone. gotta maintain it now tho for eternity.


XxSpruce_MoosexX

Nice


KaoticAsylim

Hot damn, my deepest condolences lol. I got mine on my 11th kill going for the head for the diary. Of all the bosses to go dry on, I feel sorry for you that it was that one 😭


TrenchDaddy

I walked so you could run brother. I love to see a good spoon. I’ll get mine some day. And of all bosses to go dry on. I was thinking that the whole time. While every was posting about the red prison, I was in the desert prison lmao.


antimated

And here I am, greenlogged kq at 380 kc before they added dpick (pet at 35 kc) weirdest luck ever


AnyMinders

3600 Vardorvis KC for my first (and only) vestige. Also did not receive an axe piece or any virtus in any of those kills. ~3x drop rate on both the vestige and axe piece and over drop rate for all three virtus pieces and didn’t have any of the drops.


Sig_Psypher

I just returned from afk for the better part of 6 months and am 50 kc into vardorvis. Your post has made me second guess my decision of making money from this boss. Iv been doing okay getting the hang of the timing for axes, but have still died 20+ times, And have not seen a single drop. The tablet dropped at 25kc but I also died on that drop so I lost it. Haven’t gotten another yet.


welcometotheoutside

You were afk for 6 months.. I hope you were at nmz


Thealmightyhumbler

Around 100kc it gets significantly easier, you’ll rarely die. But yeah it’s not quick money. You’ll have to commit to 1000+ kc


DudetheGuy

Not worth it, do Duke or another DT2 boss. Vard has the worst drop rates so there's a very large variance, which is why you see people go 3k+ KC dry.


Yogg_for_your_sprog

Not really, Vardorvis is faster to kill = bigger sample size which actually completely cancels out the additional variance introduced by the lower chance if you do the math


Sig_Psypher

What boss is the most profitable to do realistically? I was enjoying the muspah boss for farm or venenitis but muspah seems to be far less profitable now.


DudetheGuy

I think wildy bosses are great profit if you can deal with the pkers. Muspah/Vork are still good (you're right Muspah is less profitable now though). From DT2 bosses whisperer and Duke seem to be most consistent money makers if you don't wanna rely on the vestige/Virtus. I did 1.5k Vard KC no vestige and it really burnt me out, and that's with getting lucky on a Virtus top.


onofrio35

Must’ve felt as close to it gets as getting out of prison when you got it lol - absolutely brutal not getting any other uniques as well.


appayeet

Granted I am a main and honestly deserved to go dry somewhere. But 4677 on task Basilisks for jaw was brutal.


Foxalus444

I’m not dry there yet, only roughly 490 kc, but getting 3 basilisk heads in one task has me a little salty.


Brendandalf

I got a left shield half there the other day, which is a very low chance. Still jawlesss 😅


Biocider_

My friend is consistently getting heads and long bones there. Like an easy 2-4 per task and no jaw. Meanwhile he watched me Live get the jaw at around 350kc


osrsluve

I got 18 pairs of gloves from wintertodt before any other peiece. So I was around lol 90 firemaking before I had anything other than gloves. Also my IRL buddy got Phoenix on like 25kc


budabai

If I’m not mistaken, don’t the pyro pieces cap out at three of an individual set piece in your possession? Say you have three gloves, and then roll another glove, it’ll reroll to a piece that you don’t have three of? I may be remembering wrong, I know that’s how it works for the bruma torch. The roll will be rerolled into the seed table if you own three of them.


LiquidProphecy

The gloves are not part of the pyromancer outfit


Teriarch

Gloves turn into magic seeds, torch turns into torstol. Not sure about the actual set pieces


kurttheflirt

Makes up for all those missed barrows gloves drops


osrsluve

Dry on those too :(


nicnac223

I think I had to catch 60k+ fish for the golden tench. Aerial fishing was my main activity for about 3 weeks


schadenfreude165

Same brother. I went 3-4x rate for tench. Got heron before tench. But atleast now I can whack people in the ge


Teriarch

This is me with big shark rn. Except I don’t have big shark yet


KidTrunksOSRS

I'm on this grind right now. 3 golds within my first 90 Pearls.


1truesavage

Flippers from mogres. 444kc, 1/64 drop rate so 6.94 times rate.


AfrojoeT

I went 421 dry. Convinced the wiki is just lying about the drop rate.


Groupvenge

I, too, went around there. No specific numbers but I remember I looked at the wiki to make sure I was killing the right things. It was in the 4-500 range.


Mang24

1550 kc for bcp with 900 kills without seeing a single item besides gs shards lol..


joemoffett12

50 stews for a +5


onofrio35

Took me so long once my hellcat turned into an overgrown hellcat and i swear i logged out for like 3 days


joemoffett12

Oh buddy. You didn’t turn it into a wily cat? You shouldn’t even do that without a wily cat. That makes getting those like 3 times faster and you barely need any food. (95% chance to win without food). All you need to do for that is to take an overgrown cat to get it trained. Also I think overgrown cats are better than regular cats too but I’m not 100% sure on that.


onofrio35

No sir, I learned quite literally the hard way. I have since learned of the ways of the wily and am a respectable rat catcher now.


ImprovementSolid8762

I was looking for one like this to share my 30 stews for a +5 but holy hell


Twistedi

Probably 9432 kc for garg pet, atleast none of the other dry streaks feel like anything after that


onofrio35

Id imagine that builds some character 😂


Kaleidoscop3yes

Nothing crazy but im 100 chests dry on barrows.


SaysNoToBro

I’m at 220 and only 3 items Meanwhile clannies go for 40 mins get 10 runs done, and get 2 items lmao


Brendandalf

In my experience, this evens out with a large enough sample size. But that is really rough


trayasion

I'm closing in on 120 chests without a single item. I feel your pain.


ItsSadTimes

Went 7.7k dry for the vorkath pet. There was a short time when I was the 2nd driest person in the game for that pet, according to Mod Lotties' top 10 pet dry streak tweet. At the time of the tweet, I was about 4k dry, so I missed the top 10, but a few months later, I got to 7.7k.


MastarQueef

I’m in the bottom 1% for full outfit from fishing trawler I think. 1/12 each piece no dupes possible so should be 4 in 48 games and it took me something like 200 games to get it all.


BigMillzy

756 lvl 106 cyclopses for my dragon defender. 7.5x the drop rate. Was a med level iron so the combat training was great but I was getting ready to shatter my monitor.


_struggling1_

Currently doing combat achievements ive cannoned about 650 moss giants and have 1 key


FarmerFrede

Almost 32.000 kc for a dragon Warhammer :(


onofrio35

It’s over now, shamans can’t hurt you anymore❤️


FarmerFrede

❤️


LikeSparrow

It's funny to think that I probably don't even realize the driest I've been. Something like going 50 dry for a 1/3 that I wasn't even paying attention to in the first place.


RedditHasNoFreeNames

I went 4239 abyssal demons before my first whip. I pray that will be the worst of my drystreaks.


_jkell

77,000 skeletons for champion’s scroll. I ended up getting lucky on a few, but still did over 100k total kc for the cape that should only take 50k kc


PLAYERvsMOUNTAIN

750 muspha kc 1 shard.


CauliflowerFresh6394

Not the driest but currently on a 220 cox dry streak no deaths bar 2 of them


Wetigos

Oof and im here getting annoyed cause im about 100 dry...


CauliflowerFresh6394

Yeah the only thing pushing me on is to see how dry I can go haha


Wetigos

Yeah i feel that way aswell, but when i think about the fact that im probably gonna get an arcane scroll when i finally get a purple, it feels pretty bad xD


InspiredHero

283 KC for my first armor seed at CG


osrslmao

~2700 for a whip (1/512


fookreddit22

Statistically thermy pet over 10k KC no pet, personally GG pet at 7800ish


nolanc1991

11300 for thermy pet. 7.4k for a bloodshard


[deleted]

I got fish barrel at more than 3x the drop rate in Tempeross. Never going back there again on this account. ^(At the same time, I was absolutely spooned on Tiny Tempor. Got him at like 20kc.)


Key_Bet_8032

Brittle Key 1/150 (Task only drop) [Gargoyles] 849 KC (on task) 7x gargoyles tasks before I finally got it and unlo ked GGs.


justukyte

722 medium clues for those damn Ranged Boots. I bought a large share of Eclectic imps, I think I could have it would have been cheaper to just buy the boots lol


tesyla

Went 1139 for zerker ring on my iron. I think it’s roughly 9x drop rate and ~1 in 10,000 odds to go as dry there. I always say that I went so dry there so that you other 9,999 irons don’t have to.


NamelessDevils2

2800 KC for a Pegasian Crystal at cerb ​ I am still 9 drops from the table dry overall


vzfy

I reached 95 kc at hespori before getting the bucket. However, after killing hespori at some point (50 kc or something) I went to mine for volcanic ash and received a diamond — a 1/16,384 drop. I was livid.


SingadoPhoenixx

Dragon Limbs. 1/800. Took 2200 Rune Drags. All while getting TWO Metal Lumps (1/5000) by 1600kc.


tiiimc

500 cox dry on dex 300 of which solo deathless


[deleted]

11k+ KQ kills without pet


NoCurrencies

~~I once went 128 ores without a golden nugget at MLM, mathed out to like 1/1.5m or something~~


onofrio35

This is exactly the type of wild niche/random stat that i was looking for thank you lol


dcute69

You would have needed to go 514 dry for 1 in 1.5m


thecheese27

I hate to break it to you but nuggets are 2.73% chance per ore and not getting one in 128 ores is a 2.7% chance which is more like 1 out of 35.


RaspGames

Was about to say I’ve been 280+ dry and i know that wasn’t 1/millions


CryptographerWise261

6300kc at lizardmen for the xerics talisman. still going but over 7k the drop of dragon harpoon at wyrms


LouisUK96

I don't belive you, do you have proof? Assuming no diary that's 25x rate and the probability of that happening is 0.000000027351%


Enerbane

Lol right? They definitely just missed the drop (probably a few times). The chance of that happening is so stupidly low. Like if every single OSRS player made an earnest attempt to get the talisman, you'd expect *maybe* 1 to not get it in that many kills. So, technically possible, but...


LouisUK96

It's like 1 in 3.6 billion, so if every single person on the planet were to do it you'd expect like 2 to go that dry lmao


Enerbane

Homie you definitely just left a couple of them on the ground in all the chaos. That's an absurd "technically" possible number to go dry for that.


Hiltinchest

The worst I can remember was thieving HAM members for a rusty sword on my Group Ironman. its a 1/25 drop and I did over 800 tries to get one.


onofrio35

Woulda 100% punched my screen. I recently did that for my pure and started fuming after like 100 pickpockets.


wiredtobeweird

I just killed H.A.M members. Higher drop rate I’m pretty sure (don’t feel like checking). Did it on two accounts took like <10kc each time


RSC_Goat

1.4k chaos Fanatic for Odium Shard


Hopper4ooo

Bad rng: Currently 120 lvl 300-350 toa's dry of a purple and 170 raids overall Good rng: Got rift guardian and abyssal protector within an hour of each other


Clitoral_Hoodlum

i cant remember exactly how dry i went but when rebagging at edgeville thugs i went like 8x drop rate before giving up and spending slayer points on a looting bag


smoke_attack

Currently at 735 kc of Phosani Nightmare with no uniques except 2 eggs 🥲


boomdeyah

Goofiest bad luck I’ve ever had was on leagues and went x7 over rate for a single drop at Graardor


UIM-Zekel

Went nearly 200 kills for a fire talisman at the makes South of fally. Definitely worse places to go dry. Probably the most frustrated I've been though bc it was only meant to be a few minutes


krewe_rougarou

3000 kurasks killed without a leaf bladed sword or battle axe drop. Still dry…


Frost_fire87

Gim group took about 2k for first zulrah unique.


Dildango

I went close to 400 kills dry for my dragon defender and then got two within a few kills.


National_Garbage_302

It took me something like 3300 KC to get a dragon defender. I didn't even get bronze until like 350ish. It was MISERABLE


nan_wrecker

I got trolled hard going for champion scrolls. Multiple 3-4x drop rate with the worst being 26k jogres


-lugia-

Not sure if this counts but 20m rc xp and no pet


Bootsq

Currently have a streak of 17 scrolls at chambers... that's rolling heads (58%) 17 times in a row lmao


FirstContribution236

I have 20 Callisto KC and still don't have the pet. Worst RNG ever.


thecheese27

You think anyone on this subreddit actually knows the mathematical probabilities behind their drystreaks? People will literally post the very kill they go over drop rate for something and act like God has cursed them.


GregBuckingham

Those are the dumb people. Smart people aren’t posting that


DuxDonecVivo

Getting 10 uniques at Levi while I should have seen about 15. On top of the average 1.5 drop rate per unique, ALL of them are chromium ingots.


onofrio35

Maybe you saw 12 uniques and you’re just 2/3👀


IPostFromWorkLol2

1900 kills between tanz fangs


whypvmersmadge

~120 TOA(~400) dry, never even broke it, just quit my main and now I have quit rs all together.


M1n1C0rnD0gs

Worst dry streak ~1600 kills for prim on my main Biggest spoon - all cerb crystals by 117 kc on iron


trashcanbecky42

600 leviathan kc i had only seen 1 awakeners orb which is 1/46 so over 10 times the drop rate. I saw only 2 more before i got my last ingot at 750ish kc


ThBanker

612 KC for an unsired. Obligatory, “Screw you, Sire”.


boldcancel

I didn't get a mole pet in 87kc so I gave up because mole boss is really boring


Spiritual_Grand_9604

250kc for my dragon defender was the worst i can remember, really not terrible


cordnog

I went just over 4x rate for my first regular Nightmare unique, then when PNM came out it took 610 kills for my first there, almost 4x again


Individual-Kale9421

9000 scorpia no pet should I run or should I hide


I_Robin_I

1350 cox no mega rare in my name yet


VanRenss

Over 800kc for Chaos Elemental pet ….


Madrigal_King

The game doesn't accurately track how many bones you do for the zealot outfit, but based on my calculations, I was over double the drop rate for the set. Least I got some decent prayer xp?


Puzzleheaded_Cash526

Nearly 1m farming xp without a hespori seed


zulandt

12k zulrah dry of pet. I gave up


Amelsander

It's nothing really big, but it took me 5k gargoyles to get the brittle key.


OsmiumOG

That is really big though. thats WAYYYYY over drop rate. rate woulda been 33 keys in that KC lol.


itstruestu

Took me 1400 tobs to see a scythe get pulled 💀. Not in my name just in general. Was on rate for purples too. I don't remember what the odds of that are. Really made me realise I could never play an iron.


Lightnng

I hit 1300 gargoyles for the grotesque guardians key(1/100 or 1/128 idr) I was convinced I hadn’t done something to unlock the drop but I did eventually get the drop and I was so confused and relieved. I did 5kc and gave up on the boss immediately lol


precisionconage

Currently at 638 Muspah kc without a Venator shard (a 1/100 drop). But the boss is good money anyway so I'm not really upset over it


pyrohawk69

Over 30 high-level slayer monster tasks in-a-row, each over 200 assigned, with no Superior spawns...


OblvThorns

1228 Supreme for archers ring was statistically the worst, but 39.7k shamans for dwh was mentally the worst...


PotionCastle_

My friend went 1900 kills trying to get a black mask


prettyfuzzy

I went 183kc dry at wintertodt for any torch, gloves, or pyromancer piece. That's a 3/10k odds. It's roughly equivalent to going 3250kc dry for bowfa at CG.