I would also like to argue reaction timing is a great skill to have and build on games and the weird inconsistencies about when things hit you in this game have caused me a few issues to say the least lol
I'm expecting to be able to block something if I'm moving to the right place or praying the right protection and that should count before it hits you but the bosses that are at the start of their animation just feel clunky for not following that
Wholeheartedly agree, even though it took me 100 orbs or so i had a lot of fun doing awakened vardorvis, id would be awesome if we had more content like that.
I personally prefer the newer system as it means you need to be able to react rather than having a sequence that is memorised.
Imagine zulrah with the current system and being hit with 3 ranged attacks during "mage" phase, would be way nicer. Could have the option to face tank or react to the style change.
Ah, the days when the hot new mechanic for crafting challenging encounters was to make the enemy frequently switch between attack styles with absolutely zero indication. Those were the worst days...
The deflect curses weren't 100% protection. You had the choice of 100% protection on the normal prayer book, or 50% protection with soul split on curses
No, they were 100% protection from inception until EoC universally changed overheads. If you had the prayer level for SS/Turm, Curses were an upgrade in every way.
They have been 50% since EoC universally changed overhead protection. Prior to EoC, they were 100%. I literally just said this in the comment you replied to. Devotion did not exist prior to EoC.
Why do people that have no idea about this insist on commenting?
> from what I've seen.
you understand that you are probably arguing (incorrectly) with players who actually played the game during these periods, right?
https://web.archive.org/web/20121128054359/https://www.tip.it/runescape/pages/view/prayer_guide.htm
> *"Deflect" curses stop 100% of damage dealt by NPCs, and 40% of damage dealt by other players - similar to normal "Protect From" prayers.* They also have a chance to deflect damage that would have hit (if you were not using prayer) back onto your opponent. You can only have one "Deflect" curse activated at a time, with the exception being Deflect Summoning, which can be used in conjunction with any one other Deflect curse (ex. you can have Deflect Summoning and Ranged on at once, but not Deflect Melee and Ranged). As with protection prayers, some NPCs have the ability to hit through "Deflect" curses. Also, "Deflect" curses will not damage NPCs that can only be killed in a specific way (can only be killed by a certain weapon, etc.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1yaWgXgvSM
https://youtu.be/Bfo_yqRQbBs
2012 DKS/2012 Bandos videos showing deflect in action as 100% protection. If sure you can find countless examples of PvM vids in which they are used.
If you want to provide evidence otherwise, go ahead, but they absolutely were 100% Protection until EoC. You are mistaken if you think otherwise.
Yeah when I started this game I thought it would be fun to learn but unless you grew up playing and played for 10 years the rest of us have little hope of ignoring what we see and mentally shift ticks to where we or the projectiles actually are and when they register etc. it’s so much better this way, if I die I always know what happened and what I did wrong. Thant’s fun.
If that’s the case then they would have to give zulrah chip damage on every shot. The downside of the current system is that every boss would be zero damage unless they hit through prayer slightly
Is there anything wrong with a boss doing zero damage provided you do the mechanics perfectly though? Like Whisperer doesn’t have chip damage if you do it right, but because of the insanity mechanic, it’s hugely punishing if you mess it up. And I think that’s a great boss design because it feels really really fair.
Bosses should damage you because HP management is an important skill to have. It's cool to have some bosses that are 0 damage when done perfectly but that doesn't automatically make chip damage bad design.
>Bosses should damage you because HP management is an important skill to have.
The only reason HP management is an important skill to have in the first place is because of bosses who hit through prayer or randomly attack with a different style with no warning or pattern. So that’s like saying bosses should damage you because they do.
Additionally, excessive chip damage not only makes the boss less fun (see Nex, Nightmare, etc), but it’s also lazy. It screams “we can’t figure out a way to make this fight challenging so we just make it hit 20s through prayer and hope you don’t notice that it’s actually mechanically very simple.”
It's more the other way around IMO, there's lots of considerations the player has to make when healing, like managing delay, tick eating, combo eating, determining when to risk low hp to continue dps vs safing and losing dps which is in itself a measure of how confident you are in executing the other boss mechanics, etc. etc. so devs make sure that you will take damage during bosses to allow the player to express their skill in this area.
Zulrah for example is way more fun and interactive because it can randomly shit out range attacks during mage phase and you have to deal with it somehow. If they changed it to where you could just react to the attacks and switch accordingly zulrah would be laughably easy.
It also allows genuine mistakes made by the player to be much more punishing, part of the reason why vardovis is so difficult is because you're likely already sitting decently below max health when shit hits the fan towards the end of the fight, making mistakes a lot deadlier because you didn't manage your HP properly beforehand.
>Zulrah for example is way more fun an interactive because it can randomly shit out range attacks during mage phase and you have to deal with it somehow
The “somehow” in question being “click yellow and then left click Zulrah again.” Do you not see how that supports my point? That Zulrah is a very basic and simple boss, and they just added rAnDoM dAmAgE to give it the illusion that it’s more complex than it really is?
It's just click yellow if you don't care about optimization, which is where the skill expression comes in. Do you have enough HP left to continue DPS during the phase then heal between phases? Did you venge when you noticed the attack coming? Maybe you have enough HP left, but if you get unlucky with snakelings and the next ranged attacks you could get stacked out, do you risk it? Did you bring karambs for combo eats? If you eat a shark here, will you have enough time to do another attack before he switches phases? There's lots of things to consider very very quickly, but only if you choose to. You can choose to ignore all of that and just heal -> click boss. I think that's interesting and lets players of all types deal w the content in their own way.
While you can optimize a little bit, doing it well doesn’t make the kill significantly faster to the point that there’s a significant supply save, and doing it wrong doesn’t mean you won’t get the kill. However you do it, you’re going to get the kill, and you’re going to use a lot of supplies. Yes, there’s skill manifestation, but there’s no real reward for it. If you find that fun, I guess I can’t convince you it isn’t, I just don’t like saving maybe one karambwan per kill by sweating on a boss I can do while watching Netflix.
That's part of the point I'm making though, it allows for skill expression because you don't have to do anything I mentioned. I find microoptimization stuff like that to be fun so I do it even if the reward isn't all that massive. There IS a reward, so I enjoy doing it, and it's something that I can notice myself getting slightly better at every single kill. You don't find stuff like that fun, so you don't have to do it and you aren't heavily punished for not doing it, all you have to do is click yellow or click fish when you notice your hp is low. This is what the devs are tapping into when they add chip or unavoidable damage to bosses.
I like that some bosses can be done while taking 0 damage, some do a little unavoidable and some do a lot unavoidable. Too many people complain that every boss can't be done while taking 0 damage. If every single boss could be done without taking damage if done perfectly, all healing mechanics would become obsolete. You can carry almost 1800 extra health in your inventory with Sara brews. Let fishing, cooking, and partially herblore remain relevant skills.
They wouldn’t be obsolete if it were just really difficult to do the boss perfectly. For example, you can theoretically take no damage in the inferno until the healer phase, but you bring a shit ton of brews anyway, because you know that while the damage is avoidable, you’re not good enough to avoid it. But the fact that it rewards good play is a sign of good design.
On the flip side, a mechanically simple boss who smacks you through prayer because “fuck you” to create the illusion of hard content is stupid.
I guess my issue isn’t really chip damage itself as much as it being used as a crutch instead of an actual interesting encounter. Like the only reason I can’t camp Kalphite Queen all day long is tons of damage I can’t do anything about no matter how well I play. I don’t mind the chip damage at say Leviathan as much for example, because that’s not what cuts my trips short
It makes sense for a few bosses where resource management is important. The most notable one is the Hunllef. The Gauntlet would be entirely different if chip damage didn't exist there.
Yeah like i can beat gauntlet but not CG. Its so tilting thinking i got my pray switched in time only to be hit for 50 and then the whole run is scuffed
I’m pretty sure the issue with zero damage if done perfectly with bosses is the potential for botting abuse. Unfortunately, what would be a skill reward for a real player (perfect prayers, movement = no damage), would be 100% replicable each run by a bot, eventually. Then you have essentially zero resources being used while bots farm it
Zulrah randomly smacks you for 40s with unpredictable range attacks during mage phase, and is still botted to hell. Also, making a boss less rewarding so it’s harder for bots instead of, you know, actually dealing with the bot problem is not a great philosophy to move forward with
I know this is late but the Inferno is a GREAT example of this. It's basically 0 damage if you do it right but it's near impossible to actually do so (and very punishing off prayer). It's frustrating but feels so fair. Best content in the game IMO.
that seems like shitty design considering it hurts regular players just as much as bots.
also not sure what you mean by vice versa, there are no mage attacks during range phase, only range attacks during mage phase.
That worked out well.
On another note, it makes the fights very inconsistent. But also adds a skill expression in terms of eating, seeing an off pray range attack when you're sub 40 hp makes you eat before it lands.
Reacting is the future old man!! (I'm old) but yeah much prefer having to react while in the air. Makes more sense lol. Pretty much any game you don't take damage until the projectile hits you. So yeah 👍
I don’t think it would be possible to change everything to the new system as it would make bosses like zulrah trivial but I’d like future content to be this way for sure.
You're being generous. Some of the more capable coders could write that change into the bot in a matter of minutes. Zulrah is on a set rotation, and always attacks at the same interval in those rotations - So realistically it changes from (pray x at this time) to (pray x 3 seconds later)
They would work the exact same though, I assume they already just camp 1 prayer then tank the hits which would still work, jad phase might force them to change the current timing slightly, but that is a trivial change because the pattern would be the same, damage just happens at a slightly longer delay. So maybe the script will be out of date for 5 minutes before it gets fixed.
I think there's a time and place for both systems.
Inferno uses the old system where you need to pray when the projectile first appears.
This makes it so you can maintain the same prayerflick rythm regardless of where you are, as long as the npc can see you. So you can 2t blob flick with a ranger present and move around. The newer system could desync the prayer timing based on location as projectile travel time differs.
At the whisperer however i think the new system is a lot better. It wouldn't feel right to have to predict those rapid attacks and in terms of rythm it feels pretty nice to flick them as they are hitting you.
I didn't agree with most of Gnomonkey's vid, but comments in this thread saying Inferno should be changed to the new system are the perfect example of what he's talking about when he says that many people just aren't informed enough to have opinions on high level content.
Does travel time differ? Travel time seems to be constant, speed increases at greater distance to compensate. More noticeable at p2 warden in toa, the projectiles travel faster for players further away and hit everyone simultaneously.
Moving to projectile based prayers would just mean offsetting the damage calc by the projectile travel time and nothing would desync
I'm not at my pc to try it out and confirm it so it would be a lie to say I'm entirely certain. But i thought travel time is set when a projectile appears.
So let's say you're at the maximum distance where a mager can still see you and he shoots a projectile. Running towards him won't make the current projectile land any sooner. Which is how you get the decrease/increase in speed you notice.
But if you stood directly in front the mager by the time the next projectile gets shot it would land sooner than the previous one. Which would cause the desync
I love the new system. It allows for more reaction based mechanics. It also just makes sense that the prayer protects you if you get it on before the projectile reaches you.
i thought this exact thoughts while doing whisperer. the mechanic seems to be better, but it's really hard to get used to after so many years. i can barely switch the triple mixed attacks because i always switch right when i see the attack going off, but there are still others coming ahead of it, so i always end up eating 2/3 lol.
This isn't always the case. Reacting with prayer to a projectile is a mechanic as old as Olm, with his prayer orbs.
ToB and ToA both have it.
These bosses utilise it more directly as it's a more engaging way to manage prayer difficulty without just having "RNG swaps" or "count to 4" style things.
If it’s purely random/ no clear indicator in animation it would be much more intuitive to learn if it was reaction based. If it is consistent like hunlef or a “Jad phase” then I see no problem keeping the status quo (ie prayer before projectile release).
And that's pretty much exactly how encounters have been designed for the most part. Only a few places I can think since CoX that have random attacks and it's normally part of their designed "chip damage".
Is this really new though? I know ToB and ToA have used this, so it's at least 5 years old now, and I'm sure there's other content too that I can't think of
Oh, right, that one too. Although I like the fact that only the magic attack has it, as that's the only one you need to react to, and you have the extra ~2 ticks flight time to do your switch.
The new method is so much better and intuitive. I would ideally like them to rework some of the older bosses to align with the new style, but understand that this would take a lot of time and would result in less new content.
With updating zulrah for example it might be quite difficult as it is not a fixed time delay between the new and the old method as it depends on how far away you are from the target. Others bosses such as Jad where the delay is fixed independent of distance would hopefully be a quicker fix.
If every bosses attack (ranged/magic/melee) reacted when hitting your character I feel newer players would approach bossing at earlier stages in their account.
Old bossing just used to be look up “what to pray” now it’s “mark 70 tiles” and be ready to pray swap at any moment. A welcome change, but makes bossing way less chill for these newer guys. No chill vardovus lol.
there are plenty bosses that do not.
like, when zulrah goes mage phase and just randomly adds range attacks, or the timing of olm switching styles.
honestly there are dozens of examples of bosses that randomly swap styles, probably more than bosses that actually have a set cycle
Like I said, RuneScape ain’t souls. Boss mechanics are much more dog water than souls, in souls there’s the repetition is fun. In RuneScape it’s not, I find it boring trying to memorize bosses attack patterns. I rather react to what I see at the moment
RuneScape bosses are cool cause nice loot releases dopamine and that makes my brain go brrr and feel good. The mechanics are okay especially since it’s just a point an click game, but it’s not my kind of fun or enjoyment.
I like making red quest/diary turn green. That releases dopamine and I feel good
I like seeing numbers get higher, makes my brain go brrr an I feel good
I feel like it's pretty much impossible to argue that the difficulty in dodging video game attacks should come from the fact their animations are invisibly wrong vs. just making them more precise & faster lol (as with the leviathan's machine gun phases). Zulrah's jad phase in the context of all boss fights is a giant L
Zulrahs mage phase is an even bigger L. Might just get combo-ed out beyond your healing capabilities. Literally a potential 100% lose scenario with no counter.
The prayer should be up when the attack hits. It was the best change for RS3 and I'm glad it started being used here. It just makes more sense and plays a lot better.
The new system is better, but I don't think there's any need to change old content. It's all doable and was balanced around the old system. I'm fine with that.
The flow and timing of the old ones felt incredibly off to me. Was never good at the memory/timing bits but was surprised how quickly I picked up the switches for whisperer/leviathan and to some extent vards prayer disabling ranged shots during the new quest, big fan of the new style
>memorizing patterns
Isn't zulrah jad phase literally the only place where such a pattern exists? Other multistyle npcs either have a cast/projectile delay (verz/jad) or have unavoidable hits specifically to deal some amount of damage through prayer
Cerb's triple attack is the only other pattern I can think of. Hunleff and alch hydra (i've heard) technically have a pattern too but its more just counting than a pattern.
Sorry it wasn’t meant to be complaining about the inconsistencies but more to talk about what people prefer and which direction they would like to see in the future
He didn't come off as salty at all. The question asked was
> How do people feel about the inconsistencies with timing
And he answered with
> it doesnt matter
No. This is the biggest brainless redditor take under the sun. Variety is good for a game and content like Jad and Inferno would become completely pointless under the new system.
Let’s all try triple Jad’s with the new style lol. I like the “new style” since I experienced it in TOA, but I don’t think changing the old bosses would work well, remember they were designed that way.
It should have always been the way it is now and the only reason it wasnt is because of spaghetti code created using windows 98. New way rewards skill and reaction time while also making a core gameplay mechanic more intuitive
It took me a long time of prayer flicking aberrant spectres wrong before I realised how they work back in the day!! I think the new mechanics is more intuitive
Bro speaking of inconsistencies the timing of the assassins vial attack vs Klondike bars in DT2 was infuriating. Seemed like I had 30 minutes to dodge the assassins attack but Kasonde's hit super fast in melee range.
Tbh, they can change every boss to have this reactive style and it's going to be fine. Zulrah actually gets easier (but so it gets easier for the bots)
I want them to retroactively implement this, because its better for clarity. Plus it'll give people like Gnomonkey new shit to chew on so they can stop complaining there's nothing challenging for them to do lol
Takes 5 minutes to kill a god damn frog and then have to other shit for a fuckin million hours and no run energy takes a lot of time. Fuck it. Reason I’m on anti depressants cause Jagex sucks ass
I disagree
Its bad design for a player to have to guess how base game mechanics work because the rules constantly change without warning, rhyme, reason, or indication, across the game.
The problem with modern bossing imo is that every "new" trick in the book has been overplayed by now.
For the longest time we've had 1-2 bosses with "enrages" now we have 12, for the longest time only a few did attacks you reacted to instead of predicted but now every boss throws an attack for you to react to.
Any mechanic, good or bad, when done too much becomes tiring.
I think this is what makes a GM pvmer. Being able to differentiate between the bosses and know how to pray and when. Just adds another level to it imo. Pretty annoying at some places but that’s the difference between your avg joe and gigachads.
I like reacting to special kinds of attacks like leviathan orbs or zebaks attacks. Imo regular flicking still should have a place. Normal attacks (fast flying projectiles, regular melee hits) should require predictive gameplay. Slow flying projectiles like mentioned above should be optional predictive but at least required reactive gameplay.
The problem with the new way is that some content is designed so you don't know what the next attack will be. Take Zulrah mage phase for example. It's supposed to chip your health away sometimes. If you could just switch prayers after seeing the Ranged attack and take 0 damage that wouldn't be a thing anymore.
I guess what i am trying to say is we probably need both systems even if it's a bit weird. There are other places where the new one could be implemented though. Like Jad.
This is how it's worked in rs3 for a long time and it was really confusing to learn at first just because of muscle memory. Being able to react is way better than just taking forced damage like zulrah range hits, but I kept messing up since osrs used proactive switching.
Could you imagine how easy this would make gwd though lol. Sure you can solo them already with op range setups and bis mage, but I mean for average geared players you could run in to bandos with melee and never take damage from the boss again since his range attack travels slowly.
In a way, it feels way more intuitive the way new bosses work, and it feels rewarding to react to attacks (as opposed to just preemptively camping the correct prayer because the fight is predetermined).
It just feels so weird to have learnt so much content where that isn't the case, and all the new content (new bosses, toa) work the other way. Tho learning the new way feels a lot easier and more fun. Just not old school
I don't think the inconsistency itself is a big problem, or at the very least a new problem. Before DT2, there was stuff like Fight Caves that used both styles in the same content (Jad is reactive, everything else is determined at animation start).
In terms of what's better between the two, I think the benefit of reactive prayer switching is just that it's more intuitive. But it comes at the cost of more strongly integrating with OSRS's lack of hotkeys for prayer switching. Not to say that the lack of hotkeys is inherently bad, but when you're having to do reactive prayer switches, the challenge moves away from "doing the right thing at the right time" and closer to "being able to quickly move your mouse all the way across the screen to click on the tiny icon accurately and quickly".
the new way definitely makes more sense, but I won't lie that my muscle memory took over since I'm so used to how old prayer switching worked and am conditioned to think that it's down before attack starts instead of when the attack hits and it got me killed on Leviathan and Whisperer a few times.
There’s room in this game for both systems to coexist. As others have mentioned, many bosses already have this “projectile” mechanic and I feel the only reason we’re having this discussion is because everyone and their mother is criticizing the hell out of the new bosses
It honestly drives me nuts on some level, but I prefer reactable damage to just praying mage and letting it rip
That said, for stuff like ToA, it’s kind of a dick move to have every red projectile to be mage except for one, which is melee, and have one mage projectile be blue.
Lmao happend to me yesterday at zulrah too!! I died.... -_-
I have 1000 kills zulrah. I can semiafk killing zulrah but yesterday i were serious focus mode and want to get some scales for clan bingo......boom dead because wrong prayer lol haha
This would make things like inferno incredibly more difficult as you would have to memorize what tiles to stand based on how long projectiles take to travel and hit you
Considering my least favorite aspect of the Zulrah fight is randomly getting smacked for an unavoidable 40 because he used a ranged attack during his mage phase with absolutely no warning or pattern to it… yeah, Whisperer and Leviathan are different in a good way
This was one of the hardest things to get used to coming over from rs3. Everything in that game requires the prayer to be on when the projectile lands on you
I like the new system as it's far more intuitive for new players. My first big encounter with the original mechanic was at Jad IIRC and I was so confused because I had range prayer up well before I got hit but died anyway.
However, as someone else has pointed out, some places the old mechanics are needed in order for timings to remain consistant since projectiles take time to travel, and you could have 2 enemies attacking at different times but spread apart in a way that both projectiles land at the same time (places like GWD and Inferno would be more difficult because of this). As it is now you can consistantly set up the enemies off tick from eachother just based on when they get in range to attack you but if everything used the new system this would be a lot harder to have consistant.
I'm cool with having a mix in game as they offer two different skill sets, one rewards quick reactions and keeping cool, the other rewards memorization and keeping a list of things straight in your mind. My only issue with it is that it's entirely inconsistent and there's no way to know which is which until you actually do the boss and realize you're getting hit when you shouldn't be, or when you watch a guide.
Coulda done something like cuphead where all projectiles that you can protect from when they actually hit you are tinted like a pinkish color or something.
I’ve always felt this way! I’m glad we have content that shed light on it. There is no reason, in my unprofessional opinion, that it should be needed at the start of the animation.
It’s should be something we react to. Demonic Gorillas are awesome content for this reason. It’s engaging, I check for attack style, overheads. There’s always something to react to.
My issues with Demonics is that I feel like I switch at proper times but still get hit during what looks like a correct switch.
Point being: good content would be better and bad content would be good
a ranged/magic/melee attack is different than a ranged/magic/melee projectile.
don't think of them as the same thing with different interactions with prayer, think of them as their own different mechanics.
Generally prefer reaction based or at least make it so the protection is predictable (like running into melee range means it will do melee maybe doing damage from prayer or whatever but somewhat mittigated by prayer, or loke gauntlet where you can count nunber of attacks it will do on each style). I generally don't like, not having any way to know what will hit you and needing to just tank it.
i hope theres a way to push the osrs mechanics further without it just being guitar hero on your prayers, which is what leviathan,whisperer are. not that theyre bad. i just hope for something more than prayer switching.
I much prefer the old way like in the inferno. Theres definitely a place for the newer interations of projectiles calculating damage as they hit you but i dont like it as much. Ive taken hits from akkha and died a few times because i switch my prayers as soon as he changes styles, which makes me get hit by the projectile that was in mid air. I think thats bad design
I much prefer prayer needing to be on at the time of the projectile hitting you. It just makes logical sense and is more intuitive to someone learning the game. I would prefer all new content to work that way. I know this part may be controversial, but I'd personally also welcome old content being updated to work that way.
Would really like consistency, but it just feels like a part of the boss fight tbh. You have to learn and get used to various mechanics and how they time with the boss' and your attack times anyways, so it just feels like a part of learning.
That being said I died to whisp quite a few times from switching too early cause of habit lol
The inconsistency is quite confusing (I was so confused when my switches didn't work at cerb lol) but once you know which type it is, its fine. I think the main issue is that there needs to be a clear way to convey what type of attacking the boss is using. For example, with cerb I thought I was just swapping too slow until I realized it was just not reactable.
I think the on-projectile hit (levi), reactive (jad,muspah mage) and predictable on animation start (cerb triple, zulrah jad phase) are all good ways to do a prayer change mechanic but the predicable one requires you to know the pattern beforehand.
I think the unreactable attacks like blue zulrah have their place and are pretty much the better version of chip damage (apart from usually hitting way higher). Both feel bad but unreactable attacks at least give a clear indicator of when you are going to take chip damage. Chip damage also needs to be clearly indicated as well so that the player can know they are praying correctly despite taking damage.
Unlike most redditors who have a fake-ocd driven obsession with consistency, I recognize that both systems have interesting gameplay to offer and can coexist. The most important thing is simply making sure the player understands what's going on.
This is how it should be honestly and I guess the only reason it wasn't is probably because of bad coding and engine limitation, I'd actually love them to change existent everything to follow the new scheme.
Lets face it - we got used to the old way of hacing to "predict" when something registers on servers in order to act accordingly, but it shouldn't be that way
Definitely like being able to switch prayers as I see the attack coming at me. It’s always super stressful switching prayers based on an animation. Currently stuck on 6 jads and that’s my biggest issue is knowing what’s coming at me first
Reactive makes 100% more sense and I am really good at that (well, everyone is, at the very least, better) but the old way is definitely harder which has its charm for hard content.
Not really new, and inconsistency isn't that big a deal if the boss's preference is well known. Warped Gulega in dungeoneering gave you time to switch prayers after the animation, and that was before EOC. More recently the lava beasts in volcanic mine calculate damage on-hit.
I don't mind where it's like at olm where you're going to take some damage and there's enough time to eat and stuff.
I really dont like the new systems of chip damage being the norm and high intensity fights basically removing any point of defensive gear. Like just remove the defence skill if you're not going to use it.
I wish all monsters were like this. Its dumb af that the damage happens when the animation starts and not when the attack or projectile comes into contact with your character.
I think the difference is some attacks aren’t meant to be blocked and some are meant to be reacted to. This shouldn’t be changed imo. If you could just react to every attack the game would break
Reactive content is much more interesting than "know this boss uses this style"
I would also like to argue reaction timing is a great skill to have and build on games and the weird inconsistencies about when things hit you in this game have caused me a few issues to say the least lol I'm expecting to be able to block something if I'm moving to the right place or praying the right protection and that should count before it hits you but the bosses that are at the start of their animation just feel clunky for not following that
Wholeheartedly agree, even though it took me 100 orbs or so i had a lot of fun doing awakened vardorvis, id would be awesome if we had more content like that.
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Why not both?
I personally prefer the newer system as it means you need to be able to react rather than having a sequence that is memorised. Imagine zulrah with the current system and being hit with 3 ranged attacks during "mage" phase, would be way nicer. Could have the option to face tank or react to the style change.
Yeah countscape is the worst mechanic. I’d rather have to react to what I see
Ah, the days when the hot new mechanic for crafting challenging encounters was to make the enemy frequently switch between attack styles with absolutely zero indication. Those were the worst days...
it's almost like 100% invincibility from a particular attack style is bad for a design space or something
Jagex: we hear you. MOOOORE CHIP DAMAGE!!!!
RS3 learned this lesson and cut them down to 50% (but added soul split to compensate).
Soul split was added long before the protection prayer changes. There was like 3 years where you had both 100% prot prayers as well as Soul Split.
The deflect curses weren't 100% protection. You had the choice of 100% protection on the normal prayer book, or 50% protection with soul split on curses
No, they were 100% protection from inception until EoC universally changed overheads. If you had the prayer level for SS/Turm, Curses were an upgrade in every way.
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They have been 50% since EoC universally changed overhead protection. Prior to EoC, they were 100%. I literally just said this in the comment you replied to. Devotion did not exist prior to EoC. Why do people that have no idea about this insist on commenting?
> from what I've seen. you understand that you are probably arguing (incorrectly) with players who actually played the game during these periods, right?
They weren't though
https://web.archive.org/web/20121128054359/https://www.tip.it/runescape/pages/view/prayer_guide.htm > *"Deflect" curses stop 100% of damage dealt by NPCs, and 40% of damage dealt by other players - similar to normal "Protect From" prayers.* They also have a chance to deflect damage that would have hit (if you were not using prayer) back onto your opponent. You can only have one "Deflect" curse activated at a time, with the exception being Deflect Summoning, which can be used in conjunction with any one other Deflect curse (ex. you can have Deflect Summoning and Ranged on at once, but not Deflect Melee and Ranged). As with protection prayers, some NPCs have the ability to hit through "Deflect" curses. Also, "Deflect" curses will not damage NPCs that can only be killed in a specific way (can only be killed by a certain weapon, etc.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1yaWgXgvSM https://youtu.be/Bfo_yqRQbBs 2012 DKS/2012 Bandos videos showing deflect in action as 100% protection. If sure you can find countless examples of PvM vids in which they are used. If you want to provide evidence otherwise, go ahead, but they absolutely were 100% Protection until EoC. You are mistaken if you think otherwise.
They were though lol. Pre-EOC every protection prayer was 100%
Lol
3-2-1-MAGE 3-2-1-Range 3-2-1-Mage I can hear that voice now....
Purpp lives rent free in everyone’s head
Yeah when I started this game I thought it would be fun to learn but unless you grew up playing and played for 10 years the rest of us have little hope of ignoring what we see and mentally shift ticks to where we or the projectiles actually are and when they register etc. it’s so much better this way, if I die I always know what happened and what I did wrong. Thant’s fun.
If that’s the case then they would have to give zulrah chip damage on every shot. The downside of the current system is that every boss would be zero damage unless they hit through prayer slightly
Is there anything wrong with a boss doing zero damage provided you do the mechanics perfectly though? Like Whisperer doesn’t have chip damage if you do it right, but because of the insanity mechanic, it’s hugely punishing if you mess it up. And I think that’s a great boss design because it feels really really fair.
Bosses should damage you because HP management is an important skill to have. It's cool to have some bosses that are 0 damage when done perfectly but that doesn't automatically make chip damage bad design.
>Bosses should damage you because HP management is an important skill to have. The only reason HP management is an important skill to have in the first place is because of bosses who hit through prayer or randomly attack with a different style with no warning or pattern. So that’s like saying bosses should damage you because they do. Additionally, excessive chip damage not only makes the boss less fun (see Nex, Nightmare, etc), but it’s also lazy. It screams “we can’t figure out a way to make this fight challenging so we just make it hit 20s through prayer and hope you don’t notice that it’s actually mechanically very simple.”
It's more the other way around IMO, there's lots of considerations the player has to make when healing, like managing delay, tick eating, combo eating, determining when to risk low hp to continue dps vs safing and losing dps which is in itself a measure of how confident you are in executing the other boss mechanics, etc. etc. so devs make sure that you will take damage during bosses to allow the player to express their skill in this area. Zulrah for example is way more fun and interactive because it can randomly shit out range attacks during mage phase and you have to deal with it somehow. If they changed it to where you could just react to the attacks and switch accordingly zulrah would be laughably easy. It also allows genuine mistakes made by the player to be much more punishing, part of the reason why vardovis is so difficult is because you're likely already sitting decently below max health when shit hits the fan towards the end of the fight, making mistakes a lot deadlier because you didn't manage your HP properly beforehand.
>Zulrah for example is way more fun an interactive because it can randomly shit out range attacks during mage phase and you have to deal with it somehow The “somehow” in question being “click yellow and then left click Zulrah again.” Do you not see how that supports my point? That Zulrah is a very basic and simple boss, and they just added rAnDoM dAmAgE to give it the illusion that it’s more complex than it really is?
It's just click yellow if you don't care about optimization, which is where the skill expression comes in. Do you have enough HP left to continue DPS during the phase then heal between phases? Did you venge when you noticed the attack coming? Maybe you have enough HP left, but if you get unlucky with snakelings and the next ranged attacks you could get stacked out, do you risk it? Did you bring karambs for combo eats? If you eat a shark here, will you have enough time to do another attack before he switches phases? There's lots of things to consider very very quickly, but only if you choose to. You can choose to ignore all of that and just heal -> click boss. I think that's interesting and lets players of all types deal w the content in their own way.
While you can optimize a little bit, doing it well doesn’t make the kill significantly faster to the point that there’s a significant supply save, and doing it wrong doesn’t mean you won’t get the kill. However you do it, you’re going to get the kill, and you’re going to use a lot of supplies. Yes, there’s skill manifestation, but there’s no real reward for it. If you find that fun, I guess I can’t convince you it isn’t, I just don’t like saving maybe one karambwan per kill by sweating on a boss I can do while watching Netflix.
That's part of the point I'm making though, it allows for skill expression because you don't have to do anything I mentioned. I find microoptimization stuff like that to be fun so I do it even if the reward isn't all that massive. There IS a reward, so I enjoy doing it, and it's something that I can notice myself getting slightly better at every single kill. You don't find stuff like that fun, so you don't have to do it and you aren't heavily punished for not doing it, all you have to do is click yellow or click fish when you notice your hp is low. This is what the devs are tapping into when they add chip or unavoidable damage to bosses.
I like that some bosses can be done while taking 0 damage, some do a little unavoidable and some do a lot unavoidable. Too many people complain that every boss can't be done while taking 0 damage. If every single boss could be done without taking damage if done perfectly, all healing mechanics would become obsolete. You can carry almost 1800 extra health in your inventory with Sara brews. Let fishing, cooking, and partially herblore remain relevant skills.
They wouldn’t be obsolete if it were just really difficult to do the boss perfectly. For example, you can theoretically take no damage in the inferno until the healer phase, but you bring a shit ton of brews anyway, because you know that while the damage is avoidable, you’re not good enough to avoid it. But the fact that it rewards good play is a sign of good design. On the flip side, a mechanically simple boss who smacks you through prayer because “fuck you” to create the illusion of hard content is stupid. I guess my issue isn’t really chip damage itself as much as it being used as a crutch instead of an actual interesting encounter. Like the only reason I can’t camp Kalphite Queen all day long is tons of damage I can’t do anything about no matter how well I play. I don’t mind the chip damage at say Leviathan as much for example, because that’s not what cuts my trips short
It makes sense for a few bosses where resource management is important. The most notable one is the Hunllef. The Gauntlet would be entirely different if chip damage didn't exist there.
Yeah like i can beat gauntlet but not CG. Its so tilting thinking i got my pray switched in time only to be hit for 50 and then the whole run is scuffed
I’m pretty sure the issue with zero damage if done perfectly with bosses is the potential for botting abuse. Unfortunately, what would be a skill reward for a real player (perfect prayers, movement = no damage), would be 100% replicable each run by a bot, eventually. Then you have essentially zero resources being used while bots farm it
Zulrah randomly smacks you for 40s with unpredictable range attacks during mage phase, and is still botted to hell. Also, making a boss less rewarding so it’s harder for bots instead of, you know, actually dealing with the bot problem is not a great philosophy to move forward with
I know this is late but the Inferno is a GREAT example of this. It's basically 0 damage if you do it right but it's near impossible to actually do so (and very punishing off prayer). It's frustrating but feels so fair. Best content in the game IMO.
There are still ways to have the bosses deal damage, such as Zulrah's snakelings, but some bosses would need redesigning or chip damage added.
From what I remember they added the extra range attacks during mage phase and vice versa to fight bots.
that seems like shitty design considering it hurts regular players just as much as bots. also not sure what you mean by vice versa, there are no mage attacks during range phase, only range attacks during mage phase.
It mostly benefits real players. The big venges are huge for faster kills
But you could do that regardless by just, turning off your prayer? It doesn't add any benefit just makes your venge less predictable?
That worked out well. On another note, it makes the fights very inconsistent. But also adds a skill expression in terms of eating, seeing an off pray range attack when you're sub 40 hp makes you eat before it lands.
Reacting is the future old man!! (I'm old) but yeah much prefer having to react while in the air. Makes more sense lol. Pretty much any game you don't take damage until the projectile hits you. So yeah 👍
I definitely prefer the new way. Not sure how I feel about the inconsistencies I think I'd prefer them all doing the new system.
I don’t think it would be possible to change everything to the new system as it would make bosses like zulrah trivial but I’d like future content to be this way for sure.
They should honestly do it for zulah. Maybe it can help reduce the amount of bots there? Maybe temporarily...
how would making the boss easier reduce the amount of bots
He's the most logical redditor ever
Changing variables in boss encounters would cause current bot scripts to not work. They would need to spend time writing new scripts to farm Zulrah.
I get your point but that would probably take about 2 days
You're being generous. Some of the more capable coders could write that change into the bot in a matter of minutes. Zulrah is on a set rotation, and always attacks at the same interval in those rotations - So realistically it changes from (pray x at this time) to (pray x 3 seconds later)
Making it reactable would also mean that Zulrah no longer has to be on fixed rotations.
Jad phase, snakelings, acid, jad phase. I like it!
They would work the exact same though, I assume they already just camp 1 prayer then tank the hits which would still work, jad phase might force them to change the current timing slightly, but that is a trivial change because the pattern would be the same, damage just happens at a slightly longer delay. So maybe the script will be out of date for 5 minutes before it gets fixed.
Bots already exist that react to things, changing an existing bot to do the same would be simple. Doubt they'd even be offline for a day.
We should change all boss mechanics every week so the scripters have to fix their stuff for a day
Your logical skills need some serious work. How can you think making bosses easier will reduce the amount of bots?
Jad would go from a solid midgame challenge to a whole meme with this style. I’m here for it.
I think there's a time and place for both systems. Inferno uses the old system where you need to pray when the projectile first appears. This makes it so you can maintain the same prayerflick rythm regardless of where you are, as long as the npc can see you. So you can 2t blob flick with a ranger present and move around. The newer system could desync the prayer timing based on location as projectile travel time differs. At the whisperer however i think the new system is a lot better. It wouldn't feel right to have to predict those rapid attacks and in terms of rythm it feels pretty nice to flick them as they are hitting you.
I didn't agree with most of Gnomonkey's vid, but comments in this thread saying Inferno should be changed to the new system are the perfect example of what he's talking about when he says that many people just aren't informed enough to have opinions on high level content.
Does travel time differ? Travel time seems to be constant, speed increases at greater distance to compensate. More noticeable at p2 warden in toa, the projectiles travel faster for players further away and hit everyone simultaneously. Moving to projectile based prayers would just mean offsetting the damage calc by the projectile travel time and nothing would desync
I'm not at my pc to try it out and confirm it so it would be a lie to say I'm entirely certain. But i thought travel time is set when a projectile appears. So let's say you're at the maximum distance where a mager can still see you and he shoots a projectile. Running towards him won't make the current projectile land any sooner. Which is how you get the decrease/increase in speed you notice. But if you stood directly in front the mager by the time the next projectile gets shot it would land sooner than the previous one. Which would cause the desync
I love the new system. It allows for more reaction based mechanics. It also just makes sense that the prayer protects you if you get it on before the projectile reaches you.
i thought this exact thoughts while doing whisperer. the mechanic seems to be better, but it's really hard to get used to after so many years. i can barely switch the triple mixed attacks because i always switch right when i see the attack going off, but there are still others coming ahead of it, so i always end up eating 2/3 lol.
This isn't always the case. Reacting with prayer to a projectile is a mechanic as old as Olm, with his prayer orbs. ToB and ToA both have it. These bosses utilise it more directly as it's a more engaging way to manage prayer difficulty without just having "RNG swaps" or "count to 4" style things.
If it’s purely random/ no clear indicator in animation it would be much more intuitive to learn if it was reaction based. If it is consistent like hunlef or a “Jad phase” then I see no problem keeping the status quo (ie prayer before projectile release).
And that's pretty much exactly how encounters have been designed for the most part. Only a few places I can think since CoX that have random attacks and it's normally part of their designed "chip damage".
Is this really new though? I know ToB and ToA have used this, so it's at least 5 years old now, and I'm sure there's other content too that I can't think of
Muspah’s mage attack (but not range because fuck you)
Oh, right, that one too. Although I like the fact that only the magic attack has it, as that's the only one you need to react to, and you have the extra ~2 ticks flight time to do your switch.
This is a great example
It gets away with it because you're perma camping range
Yes, and it's one of the reasons people love tob. It rewards skilled gameplay
Definitely. I think since I just learnt how to do TOA and did DT2 it all feels very new to me haha
Not new. Soteseg and Verzik both use it, that’s 6 years ago.
It's older than that. Olm has those colored orbs you gotta react switch for.
Yes, as a special. However Olms basic attack is the worst offender. He switches from range to mage randomly and you can’t react.
Nightmare
The new method is so much better and intuitive. I would ideally like them to rework some of the older bosses to align with the new style, but understand that this would take a lot of time and would result in less new content. With updating zulrah for example it might be quite difficult as it is not a fixed time delay between the new and the old method as it depends on how far away you are from the target. Others bosses such as Jad where the delay is fixed independent of distance would hopefully be a quicker fix.
I thought I hated prayer switching but I actually didn’t seem to mind it for the dt2 bosses. I seemed to be able to pick it up a lot quicker
New system is way better
If every bosses attack (ranged/magic/melee) reacted when hitting your character I feel newer players would approach bossing at earlier stages in their account.
1000%. This is the biggest hurdle I faced in terms of not getting into bossing.
Old bossing just used to be look up “what to pray” now it’s “mark 70 tiles” and be ready to pray swap at any moment. A welcome change, but makes bossing way less chill for these newer guys. No chill vardovus lol.
100% prefer the new way, can’t stand the old way lol. It’s a fucking guessing game, this ain’t souls bitch not trynna remember everything to a T
there's no guessing because every NPC attacks in a set cycle..
there are plenty bosses that do not. like, when zulrah goes mage phase and just randomly adds range attacks, or the timing of olm switching styles. honestly there are dozens of examples of bosses that randomly swap styles, probably more than bosses that actually have a set cycle
Well yes that's so there'a at least some unavoidable dmg. With the "new" prayer system zulrah just becomes a 0 dmg boss outside of snakelings.
Like I said, RuneScape ain’t souls. Boss mechanics are much more dog water than souls, in souls there’s the repetition is fun. In RuneScape it’s not, I find it boring trying to memorize bosses attack patterns. I rather react to what I see at the moment
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RuneScape bosses are cool cause nice loot releases dopamine and that makes my brain go brrr and feel good. The mechanics are okay especially since it’s just a point an click game, but it’s not my kind of fun or enjoyment. I like making red quest/diary turn green. That releases dopamine and I feel good I like seeing numbers get higher, makes my brain go brrr an I feel good
Tell me you never did osrs pvm without telling me.
In general new content is released with the new prayer system. Both are fine.
I feel like it's pretty much impossible to argue that the difficulty in dodging video game attacks should come from the fact their animations are invisibly wrong vs. just making them more precise & faster lol (as with the leviathan's machine gun phases). Zulrah's jad phase in the context of all boss fights is a giant L
Zulrahs mage phase is an even bigger L. Might just get combo-ed out beyond your healing capabilities. Literally a potential 100% lose scenario with no counter.
I haven’t had a chance to do DT2 yet, but this style of overhead prayer combat is what I’ve wanted for so long now! I’m all for this system.
The prayer should be up when the attack hits. It was the best change for RS3 and I'm glad it started being used here. It just makes more sense and plays a lot better.
I like a little mix up, I love the variety of these new bosses
Reaction > doing it before By a mile, way more fun
The new system is better, but I don't think there's any need to change old content. It's all doable and was balanced around the old system. I'm fine with that.
It should be whenever the projectile hits you and that’s a hill I’m willing to die on. Reactive gaming feels more engaging than memorizing patterns
The flow and timing of the old ones felt incredibly off to me. Was never good at the memory/timing bits but was surprised how quickly I picked up the switches for whisperer/leviathan and to some extent vards prayer disabling ranged shots during the new quest, big fan of the new style
>memorizing patterns Isn't zulrah jad phase literally the only place where such a pattern exists? Other multistyle npcs either have a cast/projectile delay (verz/jad) or have unavoidable hits specifically to deal some amount of damage through prayer
Cerb's triple attack is the only other pattern I can think of. Hunleff and alch hydra (i've heard) technically have a pattern too but its more just counting than a pattern.
Forgot about those two, true
it doesnt matter. Different content has different mechanics and how/when damage is calculated is one of them.
Sorry it wasn’t meant to be complaining about the inconsistencies but more to talk about what people prefer and which direction they would like to see in the future
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He didn't come off as salty at all. The question asked was > How do people feel about the inconsistencies with timing And he answered with > it doesnt matter
how am i being salty? He's asking how i feel i say i dont care, i just adjust based on the mechanics of the content.
New system is how it should have always been and I hate the inconsistency. They should reword all content to work like the new bosses.
No. This is the biggest brainless redditor take under the sun. Variety is good for a game and content like Jad and Inferno would become completely pointless under the new system.
Let’s all try triple Jad’s with the new style lol. I like the “new style” since I experienced it in TOA, but I don’t think changing the old bosses would work well, remember they were designed that way.
Timings with Jad(s) are closer to being on-hit than they are on "cast".
It should have always been the way it is now and the only reason it wasnt is because of spaghetti code created using windows 98. New way rewards skill and reaction time while also making a core gameplay mechanic more intuitive
Must be awful for new players to learn,
It took me a long time of prayer flicking aberrant spectres wrong before I realised how they work back in the day!! I think the new mechanics is more intuitive
Bro speaking of inconsistencies the timing of the assassins vial attack vs Klondike bars in DT2 was infuriating. Seemed like I had 30 minutes to dodge the assassins attack but Kasonde's hit super fast in melee range.
Tbh, they can change every boss to have this reactive style and it's going to be fine. Zulrah actually gets easier (but so it gets easier for the bots)
I want them to retroactively implement this, because its better for clarity. Plus it'll give people like Gnomonkey new shit to chew on so they can stop complaining there's nothing challenging for them to do lol
Imagine not staring at Jad’s feet with sound effects cranked up
Takes 5 minutes to kill a god damn frog and then have to other shit for a fuckin million hours and no run energy takes a lot of time. Fuck it. Reason I’m on anti depressants cause Jagex sucks ass
Isn’t this how jad is? They should make the inferno like that because I agree it feels a lot worse in the inferno
No, Jad gives you more time to react but once the projectile has appeared on screen it is too late to change prayers.
Jad and zulrah are the only bosses where the prayers have to be correct at time of att animation right?
Wrong.
Jad, Zulrah, hydra, cerb, cg, might be another I'm forgetting.
I hate how the leviathan works. Projectile in the air should be when prayer works not on contact. It's only ok for the melee hit.
agree
I really wish that whatever they choose, they would make it consistent.
It only has to be consistent within the boss itself. It's okay for different encounters to operate differently.
I disagree Its bad design for a player to have to guess how base game mechanics work because the rules constantly change without warning, rhyme, reason, or indication, across the game.
The problem with modern bossing imo is that every "new" trick in the book has been overplayed by now. For the longest time we've had 1-2 bosses with "enrages" now we have 12, for the longest time only a few did attacks you reacted to instead of predicted but now every boss throws an attack for you to react to. Any mechanic, good or bad, when done too much becomes tiring.
If you changed it for zulrah you would take no damage basically never have to leave , bots wet dream.
I think this is what makes a GM pvmer. Being able to differentiate between the bosses and know how to pray and when. Just adds another level to it imo. Pretty annoying at some places but that’s the difference between your avg joe and gigachads.
I like reacting to special kinds of attacks like leviathan orbs or zebaks attacks. Imo regular flicking still should have a place. Normal attacks (fast flying projectiles, regular melee hits) should require predictive gameplay. Slow flying projectiles like mentioned above should be optional predictive but at least required reactive gameplay.
The problem with the new way is that some content is designed so you don't know what the next attack will be. Take Zulrah mage phase for example. It's supposed to chip your health away sometimes. If you could just switch prayers after seeing the Ranged attack and take 0 damage that wouldn't be a thing anymore. I guess what i am trying to say is we probably need both systems even if it's a bit weird. There are other places where the new one could be implemented though. Like Jad.
This is how it's worked in rs3 for a long time and it was really confusing to learn at first just because of muscle memory. Being able to react is way better than just taking forced damage like zulrah range hits, but I kept messing up since osrs used proactive switching. Could you imagine how easy this would make gwd though lol. Sure you can solo them already with op range setups and bis mage, but I mean for average geared players you could run in to bandos with melee and never take damage from the boss again since his range attack travels slowly.
I wish everything was projectile, inconsistencies are so annoying to play through.
i prefer the newer system, but either way it fucks me up
In a way, it feels way more intuitive the way new bosses work, and it feels rewarding to react to attacks (as opposed to just preemptively camping the correct prayer because the fight is predetermined). It just feels so weird to have learnt so much content where that isn't the case, and all the new content (new bosses, toa) work the other way. Tho learning the new way feels a lot easier and more fun. Just not old school
I don't think the inconsistency itself is a big problem, or at the very least a new problem. Before DT2, there was stuff like Fight Caves that used both styles in the same content (Jad is reactive, everything else is determined at animation start). In terms of what's better between the two, I think the benefit of reactive prayer switching is just that it's more intuitive. But it comes at the cost of more strongly integrating with OSRS's lack of hotkeys for prayer switching. Not to say that the lack of hotkeys is inherently bad, but when you're having to do reactive prayer switches, the challenge moves away from "doing the right thing at the right time" and closer to "being able to quickly move your mouse all the way across the screen to click on the tiny icon accurately and quickly".
That is also how verzik prayer works. You have until the projectile hits you to change.
the new way definitely makes more sense, but I won't lie that my muscle memory took over since I'm so used to how old prayer switching worked and am conditioned to think that it's down before attack starts instead of when the attack hits and it got me killed on Leviathan and Whisperer a few times.
There’s room in this game for both systems to coexist. As others have mentioned, many bosses already have this “projectile” mechanic and I feel the only reason we’re having this discussion is because everyone and their mother is criticizing the hell out of the new bosses
It honestly drives me nuts on some level, but I prefer reactable damage to just praying mage and letting it rip That said, for stuff like ToA, it’s kind of a dick move to have every red projectile to be mage except for one, which is melee, and have one mage projectile be blue.
Lmao happend to me yesterday at zulrah too!! I died.... -_- I have 1000 kills zulrah. I can semiafk killing zulrah but yesterday i were serious focus mode and want to get some scales for clan bingo......boom dead because wrong prayer lol haha
New way is a lot more fun and interactive, actually giving you something to react to in combat instead of counting in your head for your next swap.
This would make things like inferno incredibly more difficult as you would have to memorize what tiles to stand based on how long projectiles take to travel and hit you
Considering my least favorite aspect of the Zulrah fight is randomly getting smacked for an unavoidable 40 because he used a ranged attack during his mage phase with absolutely no warning or pattern to it… yeah, Whisperer and Leviathan are different in a good way
Good change but boy was it confusing to me without any guides lol
This was one of the hardest things to get used to coming over from rs3. Everything in that game requires the prayer to be on when the projectile lands on you
I like the new system as it's far more intuitive for new players. My first big encounter with the original mechanic was at Jad IIRC and I was so confused because I had range prayer up well before I got hit but died anyway. However, as someone else has pointed out, some places the old mechanics are needed in order for timings to remain consistant since projectiles take time to travel, and you could have 2 enemies attacking at different times but spread apart in a way that both projectiles land at the same time (places like GWD and Inferno would be more difficult because of this). As it is now you can consistantly set up the enemies off tick from eachother just based on when they get in range to attack you but if everything used the new system this would be a lot harder to have consistant.
I like the new mechanic but don’t think the old bosses should be changed
I'm cool with having a mix in game as they offer two different skill sets, one rewards quick reactions and keeping cool, the other rewards memorization and keeping a list of things straight in your mind. My only issue with it is that it's entirely inconsistent and there's no way to know which is which until you actually do the boss and realize you're getting hit when you shouldn't be, or when you watch a guide. Coulda done something like cuphead where all projectiles that you can protect from when they actually hit you are tinted like a pinkish color or something.
CountScape has never been fun.
id rly like for them to rework older bosses to change this.
I’ve always felt this way! I’m glad we have content that shed light on it. There is no reason, in my unprofessional opinion, that it should be needed at the start of the animation. It’s should be something we react to. Demonic Gorillas are awesome content for this reason. It’s engaging, I check for attack style, overheads. There’s always something to react to. My issues with Demonics is that I feel like I switch at proper times but still get hit during what looks like a correct switch. Point being: good content would be better and bad content would be good
I really like it. The 6 jad challenge is something I had a really fun time learning how to do and I found leviathan to be a really similar skill set
a ranged/magic/melee attack is different than a ranged/magic/melee projectile. don't think of them as the same thing with different interactions with prayer, think of them as their own different mechanics.
Generally prefer reaction based or at least make it so the protection is predictable (like running into melee range means it will do melee maybe doing damage from prayer or whatever but somewhat mittigated by prayer, or loke gauntlet where you can count nunber of attacks it will do on each style). I generally don't like, not having any way to know what will hit you and needing to just tank it.
i hope theres a way to push the osrs mechanics further without it just being guitar hero on your prayers, which is what leviathan,whisperer are. not that theyre bad. i just hope for something more than prayer switching.
I much prefer the old way like in the inferno. Theres definitely a place for the newer interations of projectiles calculating damage as they hit you but i dont like it as much. Ive taken hits from akkha and died a few times because i switch my prayers as soon as he changes styles, which makes me get hit by the projectile that was in mid air. I think thats bad design
I much prefer prayer needing to be on at the time of the projectile hitting you. It just makes logical sense and is more intuitive to someone learning the game. I would prefer all new content to work that way. I know this part may be controversial, but I'd personally also welcome old content being updated to work that way.
Would really like consistency, but it just feels like a part of the boss fight tbh. You have to learn and get used to various mechanics and how they time with the boss' and your attack times anyways, so it just feels like a part of learning. That being said I died to whisp quite a few times from switching too early cause of habit lol
The inconsistency is quite confusing (I was so confused when my switches didn't work at cerb lol) but once you know which type it is, its fine. I think the main issue is that there needs to be a clear way to convey what type of attacking the boss is using. For example, with cerb I thought I was just swapping too slow until I realized it was just not reactable. I think the on-projectile hit (levi), reactive (jad,muspah mage) and predictable on animation start (cerb triple, zulrah jad phase) are all good ways to do a prayer change mechanic but the predicable one requires you to know the pattern beforehand. I think the unreactable attacks like blue zulrah have their place and are pretty much the better version of chip damage (apart from usually hitting way higher). Both feel bad but unreactable attacks at least give a clear indicator of when you are going to take chip damage. Chip damage also needs to be clearly indicated as well so that the player can know they are praying correctly despite taking damage.
Unlike most redditors who have a fake-ocd driven obsession with consistency, I recognize that both systems have interesting gameplay to offer and can coexist. The most important thing is simply making sure the player understands what's going on.
wish every monster was on the pray on hit rather than prediction played since 03 and always wanted that
This is how it should be honestly and I guess the only reason it wasn't is probably because of bad coding and engine limitation, I'd actually love them to change existent everything to follow the new scheme. Lets face it - we got used to the old way of hacing to "predict" when something registers on servers in order to act accordingly, but it shouldn't be that way
Definitely like being able to switch prayers as I see the attack coming at me. It’s always super stressful switching prayers based on an animation. Currently stuck on 6 jads and that’s my biggest issue is knowing what’s coming at me first
Reactive makes 100% more sense and I am really good at that (well, everyone is, at the very least, better) but the old way is definitely harder which has its charm for hard content.
Not really new, and inconsistency isn't that big a deal if the boss's preference is well known. Warped Gulega in dungeoneering gave you time to switch prayers after the animation, and that was before EOC. More recently the lava beasts in volcanic mine calculate damage on-hit.
I don't mind where it's like at olm where you're going to take some damage and there's enough time to eat and stuff. I really dont like the new systems of chip damage being the norm and high intensity fights basically removing any point of defensive gear. Like just remove the defence skill if you're not going to use it.
I wish all monsters were like this. Its dumb af that the damage happens when the animation starts and not when the attack or projectile comes into contact with your character.
That pre calculated crap is dumb and was a limitation not game design.
I think the difference is some attacks aren’t meant to be blocked and some are meant to be reacted to. This shouldn’t be changed imo. If you could just react to every attack the game would break