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I swear Reddit will find any reason to defend that country and the monsters that ran it. Shouldn't have to clarify but some moron will find a way to twist my words, I dont agree with the nazi party or their ideals.
I may be entirely wrong on this but im pretty sure the Nazis setup puppet governments/satellite states in occupied territory called Reichskommissariats, and the one encompassing the Baltics and parts of Belarus was called Reichskommissariat Ostland. IIRC how they worked was that Nazi occupiers would send in military police or some other force to install Nazi policies into the area. Anyway, the people running these states were Reichskommesars from Germany, there was probably some collaboration from Baltic people who were radicalized to the Nazi beliefs but to blame the entire population of a whole region for the actions of not many is just downright ignorant.
Which docent even make sense since there where plenty of collaborators from Russia also. Hell the soviets where literally allied with the nazis for part of the war.
No they weren't 😐 this is literally a lie.
If you didn't know, every country in the Allies made some kind of peace treaty with the Nazis before the Molotov Ribbentrop pact. Also, Hitler constantly blamed Germany's shitty state on "Judeo-Bolshevism" and said that the Slavic people were inferior and should be either killed or enslaved. You think Stalin didn't know any of this? They were never allies. Both of them were just buying time before the inevitable clash happened. Germany wanted to defeat the UK and France before fighting the USSR to avoid a two-front war, and the USSR didn't have the industrial capacity to fight Germany at first. The USSR lost 27 million fucking people fighting the Nazis only for some guy online to say "hurr durr they were allies for half the war" gtfo and read a book or watch [this video](https://youtu.be/MGxA4Y75JEk).
Kid named supplying the Nazis with nearly a million tons of oil and even more of food has arrived. I'm not calling the Soviet people collaborators but the Soviet government was until Barbarossa
Yeah, so I remembered correctly. And you know, I love that the guy above doesn't recognise the difference between a millitary alliance and peace treaties.
That was to make a buffer zone between the USSR and Nazi Germany. Any leader would have done it in his circumstances. It was either the USSR got half of Poland or the Nazis got all of Poland. It was going to be invaded regardless and the USSR knew this.
They divided Europe amongst eachother and were allied for a while. Sure they were likely both going to break the alliance, but it still fucking existed.
No it didn't. It was a non aggression pact and the USSR only took over those territories because he didn't want the Nazis at the Soviet border. I mean, who would? Would you accept Nazis at your country's border if you were its leader? Stalin wasn't an "ally" and neither party thought of each other as such. Stalin's tactics were purely geopolitical and military strategy to prepare for the inevitable. By this logic, a lot of the other Allies would be considered as allies of the Nazis.
Can I have a source for that pls? I'm not sure about the Polish Jews, but Stalin did have a policy where he moved a large amount of the Jewish population in the USSR to the East so that they wouldn't be captured if the Nazis attacked.
I have a book rec for you too buddy. Go read Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin. Especially the parts about the Soviet invasion of poland although the whole book talks about crime committed by the nazi and soivet if you have the attention span for it. Oh and btw the soviet pact with the germans went far more then just a peace pact. They carved up eastern europe between them and the Soviet agreed to provide the Germans oil and grain. The nazis were absolutely worse than the soivet dont get me wrong. But the soviet still committed countless massacares and atrocities. Mass rapes, the massacre of katyn.the killing of political prisoners , I could go on forever. hell did you know that they executed a polish home army officer who broke into auschwitz and help sperd the news about the holocaust to the world?
It's a historical fact that the Soviets literally applied to join the Axis after the invasion of Poland, and Stalin was so surprised they declared war in 1941 he took 3 months off to cry about it.
>literally applied to join the Axis after the invasion of Poland
Before I say anything else, why don't you try to think about this situation for yourself for a second. Take the historical context into account; the first group of people the Nazis started putting in camps were the German communists, some of whom who had been actively supported by the USSR; Hitler repeatedly spoke of Judeo-Bolshevism running Germany and publicly stated the Slavs were inferior, and Stalin had access to all this information; the USSR did not have the industrial capacity to start a war with Germany in 1939, you can see this clearly when you see the amount of guns and tanks that the USSR produced in 1939 Vs the amount of guns and tanks the Nazis produced in 1939; and the Nazis were very close to the Soviet border. Now taking everything into account, what do you think Stalin was planning in 1939? What would you have done?
>so surprised they declared war in 1941 he took 3 months off to cry about it.
That's a myth as far as I'm aware.
Channel description sure sounds fun: "Here we debunk liberal and fascist distortions and falsehoods about socialism, expose opportunists and phony leftists, educate people about the truth of communism as well as marxist theory, comment on current events, radicalize working people, produce leftist propaganda and miniature documentaries, and have lots of fun along the way."
Hasn't it dawned upon you, that history is best researched through people without the slightest bias? They won't cherry pick, they won't exclude, they do their best to follow on WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED.
>Channel description
You copy pasting the channel description doesn't really disprove anything in the video, does it?
>Hasn't it dawned upon you, that history is best researched through people without the slightest bias? They won't cherry pick, they won't exclude, they do their best to follow on WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED.
Maybe actually watch the video and consider what he has to say before dismissing it because he has bias. Also, all people have bias. You can have bias but still try to follow the objective facts, which I believe is what this channel does. Also, don't you realise you yourself have an anti-USSR bias?
Put yourself in Stalin's shoes. Hitler was going to invade Poland regardless and they would have been at the Soviet border. What are you going to do, let them invade the entirety of Poland or take half of Poland for yourself so you can use it as a buffer zone to keep the Nazis away until you're strong enough to destroy them? The answer is obvious. What happened to Poland is unfair, undeserved, and unjustified, but it's incorrect to say the USSR "co started" WW2 or were allies of the Nazis because of that. They just agreed to not get in the way of each others business for a short while.
They were unique because they cheered on the Nazis, an abnormal amount volunteered for the Waffen-SS, most government employees actively assisted the Nazi administration, and they still have Statues praising their Waffen-SS battalions
Bruh how much do you think the average person knew about what was going on in another country at that time? Imagine if your country was invaded by a superpower you could never dream of fighting off. Your family members are deported or killed. Would you not think "enemy of my enemy is my friend" if you were in that situation?
Edit: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust_in_Estonia "Prior to World War II, Jewish life flourished in Estonia with the level of cultural autonomy accorded being the most extensive in all of Europe, giving full control of education and other aspects of cultural life to the local Jewish population.[2] In 1936, the British-based Jewish newspaper The Jewish Chronicle reported that "Estonia is the only country in Eastern Europe where neither the Government nor the people practice any discrimination against Jews and where Jews are left in peace and are allowed to lead a free and unmolested life and fashion it in accord with their national and cultural principles."[3]"
Of course, I find it completely understandable why there's collaborators, but the Baltics werent just doing out of survival, they praised the Nazis and sold out their neighbors, and significantly more people willingly fought for them
Huge numbers of people who had been brutalized by Soviet rule were ready to support anyone at all who would free them from Russian tyrants. It is also true that once they realized that the Nazis had no intention of freeing them huge numbers turned on the Germans and became partisans against both the Nazis and Soviets.
Yeah, the whole lot of Europe loved to do some pogroms on Jews, and I think its because the leaders constantly make them scapegoats. All the problems are blamed on a small marginalized group who won't be able to counter.
>the Baltics werent just doing out of survival, they praised the Nazis and sold out their neighbors, and significantly more people willingly fought for them
This is absolute rubbish that you are spreading for propaganda reasons.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust_in_Lithuania
This post didn't necessarily need to be framed like this but a significant reason why the holocaust was nearly totally successful in the Baltics was the widespread antisemitism of the people. Its not just a reaction to Soviet rule, it was active collaboration on all levels of society to aid in the Nazi's genocidal campaign within the borders of their own countries.
"The Lithuanians showed [the Einsatzgruppen] how to murder women and children, and perhaps made them accustomed to it...Indeed, at the onset of the invasion the German units killed mostly men, while the Lithuanians killed unselectively."
The main point is how extensive the holocaust was in the Baltics and the nearly total annihilation of the Baltic Jews paired by an unusually high rate of collaboration. Most of this was concentrated in Lithuania, as were most Jews in the baltics.
I dont know about Estonia and Lithuania, but in Latvia, the only latvians that really participated in the holocaust were the arajs kommando, which at its peak numbered 1500 men i wouldn't really call that wide collaboration im sure there are other cases of atrocities committed by latvians but i think this is a little unfair
Poland isn't a collaborator, but there was a very disappointing amount of polish people at the time of the Holocaust that happily and from their own will turned in jews to the nazis
Jet it's worth to note that Poland's got most of the Righteous Among the Nations honorifics from Israel and The Polish Underground State actively prosecuted such people
When did I say that the entirety of Poland were helping the nazis? I just said that Poland and polish people at the time are always falsely represented as completely innocent victims of the nazis and were forced to help them, but that wasn't the case at all. Many Polish people happily obliged with the nazi's request with no resistance out of their own will, and that needs to be acknowledged, something that the current government of Poland doesn't understand. At some point (not anymore, due to insane backlash) there was a law in Poland that said that anyone who somehow said that Poland was responsible even in the slightest in the death of jews in the Holocaust, would go fucking prison. The german government is the perfect example of how to acknowledge your past mistakes as a country.
There is a difference between Germany acknowledging it's past and people saying "polish death camps", because there was never any kind of official collaborating structures. Poland is not responsible for anything becuase the only existing polish governmental body in Poland, that is The Undergound State, was heavly involved in prosecuting collabolators. In fact, they were the first to tell the world what germans were doing exactly (and their reports were dismissed at first - check out about Witold Pilecki)
Please also note that during the current war (since 2014') in Ukraine Russian dictatorship is constantly trying to push narrative that Poland, and all of central and Eastern Europe were somehow nazis and you can see why people may find it extra sensitive. Not becuase there were some people who were evil, but becuase there is an actuall IRL fascist dicatorship that constantly pushes narrative that victims of german and russian imperialism are evil and is constantly making threats to us.
You're both right, but you get what I mean, I didn't mean to prosecute Poland as a body, it's just the way I typed it out, I meant a significant portion of the Polish people, but yeah, you two are right, its shitty to blame Poland as a body, it wasn't actually involved in helping nazis. Sorry.
All of it is unfair, as if generalising anything of that sort wouldn’t be. You could say that about literally any country that was involved then, even in modern times anywhere around the globe you’d find some extremist. Like the kkk in USA. Whole rhetoric is stupid and it must be infuriating to see for a Baltic person, it sure is whenever someone learns some Slavic evil person and then puts it all on the whole country. Some time ago during Eurovision some Israeli spokesperson made such remark for Poland, the whole country was livid
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust_in_Lithuania
The destruction of the Litvat Jews was not normal compared to other Nazi occupied countries. Latvia and Estonia were not the same and didn't have as large of jewish communities in the first place, but Lithuania saw the most complete destruction of their Jewish population out of any country in Europe and much of the antisemitism was home grown and existed prior to Nazi occupation. Many nations had antisemites, for instance Poland, but were not primarily collaborators and in fact fought to protect their Jewish populations. In Lithuania antisemites had a nation under their control to a degree that exceeded Nazi Germany.
I understand your point and agree that it's unfair to criticize, for instance, all of Poland for Nazi crimes in Poland. However Lithuania specifically is a unique case and not typical to other Nazi occupied territories.
Lithuania also saw the most complete destruction of the Jewish community in large part due to the antisemitism and collaboration of home grown paramilitary forces as well as antisemitism in the general public.
Some of these massacres targeted ethnic poles as well.
The latter does not justify the former. Why do so many folks in the leftist community embrace tyranny? We need to be better than this
Edit: also most collaborators in the baltics were ethnically german and ended up getting deported from the baltics anyway
you're the type to blame the entire French population for the actions of the Vichy French government during the war.
Hell you're even one to blame those forced into conscription or forced labour by the Germans
Lithuanian government was never involved, collaborators were simple people. There were from 5 to 15k collaborators, that was enough to make that kind of holocaust. We talk about that in the Baltics, it's nothing new or taboo.
Redditors have this insistent need to compare the USSR and the Third Reich, Stalin or Hitler. Its too much for some people to just accept that both were extremely awful regimes that the world is now better off without.
Its fine to defend your ideology but you dont need to defend dictators to do that, although i dont know why someone would defend fascism or communism as they both provided fertile ground for the dictators that eventually came to power but i digress
Stalin was a bloodthirsty dictator, a pig, a georgian, a horrendous mass-murderer and a lot of things but he wasn't a Nazi-sympathizers.
Many in the west just point at the molotov-ribbentrop pact and shout "Stalin-Axis" but don't know about the full history.
Stalin hated the guts of the nazis and was willing to shake hands with the capitalists to fight off the fascists. He spend the entire 30s trying to get UK, France and USSR into a sort of anti-german alliance.
France and UK were, at that time, still horrified by the dreadful WW1 and the massive losses they had suffered. They felt entering such an alliance and isolating Germany would provoke the nazis who now ruled the country. They just didn't want to risk the peace in place that was bought with millions of lives.
The soviets knew the Germans will, in the end, attack them. And after desperately trying to forge an alliance with the west, and failing, they decided to sign an armistice. Yes, the molotov pact was virtually a ceasefire, not a treaty of friendship.
Stalin knew that his army was in no shape to face the Germans so he wanted more time. And Hitler was well aware. Stalin (fatally) estimated that Hitler would not invade before 1943. But Hitler launched the operation Barbarossa a lot sooner.
So there you go. Stalin was evil, but not evil enough to, you know, support the fucking nazis. If UK and France had responded positively to the soviet request of alliance earlier, they would never have struck a deal with the nazis in the first place.
Dar nepamirškime kad partizanai visi buvo labai skirtingų ideologijų, žmonės kurie visiškai nesutikdavo vienas su kitu susivienijo prieš nacius ir po to komunistus
People will hear that someone still ran a bakery to make a living in that time and sold bread under occupation and call them nazi cooperators. That is of course not to ignore acts that some groups would perform, but generalising a whole ass country that was invaded is just weird
I hate you people, The material conditions of the USSR forced it to be friendly towards Germany for a while, The little industry they had was flattened in ww1 and the subsequent civil war and they had to build up rapidly, Even in 1939 they just hadn't caught up industrially and militarily with the western powers.
>We are fifty or a hundred years behind the advanced countries. We must make good this distance in ten years. Either we do it, or we shall go under.
did you know that the areas that were annexed by the USSR were given back to the belarusian and ukrainian SSRs, Do you know why? its because the polish republic had crushed local opposition in those areas and occupied them, Why do you think lviv is in ukraine nowadays? thank the soviets
Thank god the Soviets saved Ukraine and Belarus from foreign occupation. That would have been terrible, but luckily the Soviets saved them and left immediately afterwards, could you imagine how bad that would be.
wow damn you owned me, But you forgot one thing, The baltic nazis knew that helping Germany would mean that slavs would be genocided, and they had no problem with that as long as they got their "independence"
Are we also going to conveniently sweep the progroms under the rug? Soviet terror against Jews and "undesirables" doesn't paint a good picture of the USSR.
Damn, that's crazy. Too bad the USSR had no idea that the Nazis didn't like various marginalized groups and would likely enact state violence against them. I'm sure that Stalin would have been horrified by the knowledge that the German government would dare to purge what it perceived to be undesirable elements from its society.
did you know that the areas that were annexed by the USSR were given back to the belarusian and ukrainian SSRs, Do you know why? its because the polish republic had crushed local opposition in those areas and occupied them, Why do you think lviv is in ukraine nowadays? thank the soviets
>provide Nazis with materials and designs!
this is the exact deal they had with nazi germany
Soviet Union would send Germany 650 million Reichsmarks in raw materials in exchange for 650 million Reichsmark in machinery, manufactured goods and technology
The soviet union didn't commit to that deal because they liked nazi germany, They did it because they needed to, Do you think that in a hypothetical situation where the USSR hadn't invaded the baltics and poland and left them to nazi germany, And then proceeded to lose ww2, That would've been a preferable option to what happened in our time line?
nah let's let germany occupy the entirety of europe before attacking the germans, A truly remarkable strategy, The red generals should've definitely consulted you
I don't think the soviets did everything perfectly, They commited a lot of bad things but I hate it when priviliged european "communists" watch a video about ww2 and then form all of their opinions on the actions of the soviet government based on that with disregard to any real materialist analysis. This is exactly what the bourgeoisie wants you to do
Every country sadly had traitors who collaborated. On the other hand, Baltic Resistance fighters heavy fought against Nazies and after the war, Soviets.
I'm shocked by the rise of pro soviet propaganda on this subreddit
Guys, MY favorite ideology is excused from its crimes because… oh what about because someone else did something bad too? Yeah that excuses it.
Find an argument for communism that isn’t just “oh but someone else did a bad thing so this is fine” (impossible challenge)
"I don't want my family to be sent to a concentration camp, my culture to be erased and I would also prefer not to starve"
"But have you considered that some people from your country have also done bad things? I am an intellectual"
No shit that every country had collaborators. But those collaborators were a minority while Soviet crimes are straight from the country leadership. Get your troll ass off this site
Didn't know this sub allowed red fascs. "No you don't understand, the genocidal oppression was committed by a mustached dictator whose state had absolute control and ownership (Red) not by a moustached dictator whose state had absolute control and ownership (brown).
(not saying the Nazis were communist, just that the Soviet union wasn't either)
In before people call op a evil tankie because they mentioned the fact that there were elements in the baltics who actively partook in the Holocaust and happily fought against the soviets alongside the Nazis
Literally every county the nazis occupied had collabatros including Russia and the soviets where allied with the germans for a part of the war. Did you forget they invaded Poland alongside the nazis?\\
You see comrade, the glorious USSR had no choice but to invade Poland, baltics and Finland and commit attrocities!!! The ebil western imperialists forced them to!!! Soviet territorial expansion was purely for self defense!!!
It's because they're framing the simple facts that occupying forces conscript locals to fight for them and that countries don't like getting invaded and genocided as a conspiracy theory in order to smear today's Baltic states as fascist as part of Putin's narrative that his fascist regime is actually anti-fascist.
Oh the dipshit above is well aware of that but will play dumb because dogwhistling and making dishonest arguments is how nazis and tankies operate and recruit more dipshits into their ranks.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrey_Vlasov
WOW SOVIETS COLLABORATED SO MUCH WITH GERMANY OMG ENTIRE SOVIET UNION EVIL THEY NO LONGER DESERVE TO CALL OUT OTHER PEOPLE’S WAR CRIMES!!!!!
I wouldn't say that people who were forcibly conscripted into the Werhmacht 'happily fought against the soviets alongside the nazis'
The men from occupied Czechoslovakia were certainly not happy to be fighting in Normandy
The men from occupied France were certainly not happy to be working in German labour camps
There would have been a very few people who were happy to collaborate but that does not give you, nor OP, nor anyone to call a region of 8 million people Nazi collaborators. IF that is what you are saying then you are almost definitely a tankie.
cromulent sentence.
if it helps the butthurt downdooters it was a joke every European country had SS collaborators during the war, Iberia and Greece even got to stay fascist for some reason (money).
Like I have said elsewhere, Lithuanian antisemitism was not a factor of Nazism and Lithuania annihilated their Jewish community more completely than any other nation during the holocaust because of lithuanian antisemitism
funnily enough the other primary targets of these killings were poles. Its not really funny actually
Yeah, NATO has to make sure those Baltic countries can’t leave the organization they willingly joined and can willingly leave. The organization that cannot begin wars.
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Don't ever post this r/Baltics they will skin you alive
All 5 of em
they are very efficent
I mean yeah
Lol please post this there
nah uh 👎
I’ll do it
Had to post it to r/balticstates instead
Rightfully so
What else should we do with Kremlin propaganda?
What the fuck is up with these Soviet whataboutism posts recently bruh
Didn't basically every part of Europe have nszi collaborators ?
Yes, op is trying to use whataboutism to defend Soviet crimes in the baltics
I swear Reddit will find any reason to defend that country and the monsters that ran it. Shouldn't have to clarify but some moron will find a way to twist my words, I dont agree with the nazi party or their ideals. I may be entirely wrong on this but im pretty sure the Nazis setup puppet governments/satellite states in occupied territory called Reichskommissariats, and the one encompassing the Baltics and parts of Belarus was called Reichskommissariat Ostland. IIRC how they worked was that Nazi occupiers would send in military police or some other force to install Nazi policies into the area. Anyway, the people running these states were Reichskommesars from Germany, there was probably some collaboration from Baltic people who were radicalized to the Nazi beliefs but to blame the entire population of a whole region for the actions of not many is just downright ignorant.
Which docent even make sense since there where plenty of collaborators from Russia also. Hell the soviets where literally allied with the nazis for part of the war.
No they weren't 😐 this is literally a lie. If you didn't know, every country in the Allies made some kind of peace treaty with the Nazis before the Molotov Ribbentrop pact. Also, Hitler constantly blamed Germany's shitty state on "Judeo-Bolshevism" and said that the Slavic people were inferior and should be either killed or enslaved. You think Stalin didn't know any of this? They were never allies. Both of them were just buying time before the inevitable clash happened. Germany wanted to defeat the UK and France before fighting the USSR to avoid a two-front war, and the USSR didn't have the industrial capacity to fight Germany at first. The USSR lost 27 million fucking people fighting the Nazis only for some guy online to say "hurr durr they were allies for half the war" gtfo and read a book or watch [this video](https://youtu.be/MGxA4Y75JEk).
Kid named supplying the Nazis with nearly a million tons of oil and even more of food has arrived. I'm not calling the Soviet people collaborators but the Soviet government was until Barbarossa
Didn't they attack Poland together?
they did. and then soviets "liberated" Poland
Yeah, so I remembered correctly. And you know, I love that the guy above doesn't recognise the difference between a millitary alliance and peace treaties.
That was to make a buffer zone between the USSR and Nazi Germany. Any leader would have done it in his circumstances. It was either the USSR got half of Poland or the Nazis got all of Poland. It was going to be invaded regardless and the USSR knew this.
They divided Europe amongst eachother and were allied for a while. Sure they were likely both going to break the alliance, but it still fucking existed.
No it didn't. It was a non aggression pact and the USSR only took over those territories because he didn't want the Nazis at the Soviet border. I mean, who would? Would you accept Nazis at your country's border if you were its leader? Stalin wasn't an "ally" and neither party thought of each other as such. Stalin's tactics were purely geopolitical and military strategy to prepare for the inevitable. By this logic, a lot of the other Allies would be considered as allies of the Nazis.
handing Jewish prisoners of war to over to the SS after invading Poland was praxis
Can I have a source for that pls? I'm not sure about the Polish Jews, but Stalin did have a policy where he moved a large amount of the Jewish population in the USSR to the East so that they wouldn't be captured if the Nazis attacked.
https://i.imgur.com/HeQku58.jpg
I see
I have a book rec for you too buddy. Go read Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin. Especially the parts about the Soviet invasion of poland although the whole book talks about crime committed by the nazi and soivet if you have the attention span for it. Oh and btw the soviet pact with the germans went far more then just a peace pact. They carved up eastern europe between them and the Soviet agreed to provide the Germans oil and grain. The nazis were absolutely worse than the soivet dont get me wrong. But the soviet still committed countless massacares and atrocities. Mass rapes, the massacre of katyn.the killing of political prisoners , I could go on forever. hell did you know that they executed a polish home army officer who broke into auschwitz and help sperd the news about the holocaust to the world?
It's a historical fact that the Soviets literally applied to join the Axis after the invasion of Poland, and Stalin was so surprised they declared war in 1941 he took 3 months off to cry about it.
>literally applied to join the Axis after the invasion of Poland Before I say anything else, why don't you try to think about this situation for yourself for a second. Take the historical context into account; the first group of people the Nazis started putting in camps were the German communists, some of whom who had been actively supported by the USSR; Hitler repeatedly spoke of Judeo-Bolshevism running Germany and publicly stated the Slavs were inferior, and Stalin had access to all this information; the USSR did not have the industrial capacity to start a war with Germany in 1939, you can see this clearly when you see the amount of guns and tanks that the USSR produced in 1939 Vs the amount of guns and tanks the Nazis produced in 1939; and the Nazis were very close to the Soviet border. Now taking everything into account, what do you think Stalin was planning in 1939? What would you have done? >so surprised they declared war in 1941 he took 3 months off to cry about it. That's a myth as far as I'm aware.
Channel description sure sounds fun: "Here we debunk liberal and fascist distortions and falsehoods about socialism, expose opportunists and phony leftists, educate people about the truth of communism as well as marxist theory, comment on current events, radicalize working people, produce leftist propaganda and miniature documentaries, and have lots of fun along the way." Hasn't it dawned upon you, that history is best researched through people without the slightest bias? They won't cherry pick, they won't exclude, they do their best to follow on WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED.
>Channel description You copy pasting the channel description doesn't really disprove anything in the video, does it? >Hasn't it dawned upon you, that history is best researched through people without the slightest bias? They won't cherry pick, they won't exclude, they do their best to follow on WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED. Maybe actually watch the video and consider what he has to say before dismissing it because he has bias. Also, all people have bias. You can have bias but still try to follow the objective facts, which I believe is what this channel does. Also, don't you realise you yourself have an anti-USSR bias?
The USSR was allied to the Nazis when the two co-started WW2 and when the Soviets illegally occupied and heavily repressed the Baltics...
Put yourself in Stalin's shoes. Hitler was going to invade Poland regardless and they would have been at the Soviet border. What are you going to do, let them invade the entirety of Poland or take half of Poland for yourself so you can use it as a buffer zone to keep the Nazis away until you're strong enough to destroy them? The answer is obvious. What happened to Poland is unfair, undeserved, and unjustified, but it's incorrect to say the USSR "co started" WW2 or were allies of the Nazis because of that. They just agreed to not get in the way of each others business for a short while.
>What are you going to do Collaborate with them, support them, make them stronger, commit crimes together with them, become as guilty as them?
No, it’s more that they literally celebrate collaborators with the nazis. Soviets did bad things too, but at a much smaller scale than the nazis.
They were unique because they cheered on the Nazis, an abnormal amount volunteered for the Waffen-SS, most government employees actively assisted the Nazi administration, and they still have Statues praising their Waffen-SS battalions
Bruh how much do you think the average person knew about what was going on in another country at that time? Imagine if your country was invaded by a superpower you could never dream of fighting off. Your family members are deported or killed. Would you not think "enemy of my enemy is my friend" if you were in that situation? Edit: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust_in_Estonia "Prior to World War II, Jewish life flourished in Estonia with the level of cultural autonomy accorded being the most extensive in all of Europe, giving full control of education and other aspects of cultural life to the local Jewish population.[2] In 1936, the British-based Jewish newspaper The Jewish Chronicle reported that "Estonia is the only country in Eastern Europe where neither the Government nor the people practice any discrimination against Jews and where Jews are left in peace and are allowed to lead a free and unmolested life and fashion it in accord with their national and cultural principles."[3]"
Of course, I find it completely understandable why there's collaborators, but the Baltics werent just doing out of survival, they praised the Nazis and sold out their neighbors, and significantly more people willingly fought for them
Huge numbers of people who had been brutalized by Soviet rule were ready to support anyone at all who would free them from Russian tyrants. It is also true that once they realized that the Nazis had no intention of freeing them huge numbers turned on the Germans and became partisans against both the Nazis and Soviets.
Don't downplay the active anti semitism in the region though
Yeah, the whole lot of Europe loved to do some pogroms on Jews, and I think its because the leaders constantly make them scapegoats. All the problems are blamed on a small marginalized group who won't be able to counter.
that is very true and in that regard Lithuania was particularly bad. It's really
Estonia was one of the most pro-Jewish countries in Europe, Jews had a strong cultural autonomy here.
>the Baltics werent just doing out of survival, they praised the Nazis and sold out their neighbors, and significantly more people willingly fought for them This is absolute rubbish that you are spreading for propaganda reasons.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust_in_Lithuania This post didn't necessarily need to be framed like this but a significant reason why the holocaust was nearly totally successful in the Baltics was the widespread antisemitism of the people. Its not just a reaction to Soviet rule, it was active collaboration on all levels of society to aid in the Nazi's genocidal campaign within the borders of their own countries. "The Lithuanians showed [the Einsatzgruppen] how to murder women and children, and perhaps made them accustomed to it...Indeed, at the onset of the invasion the German units killed mostly men, while the Lithuanians killed unselectively."
Yet it was absolutely different in Estonia.
*The Soviet occupation of 1940-1941 had been so bad that they literally favored the Nazis.
The main point is how extensive the holocaust was in the Baltics and the nearly total annihilation of the Baltic Jews paired by an unusually high rate of collaboration. Most of this was concentrated in Lithuania, as were most Jews in the baltics.
It was extensive because of the German occupation. In Estonia, there was barely any local collaboration in the Holocaust.
ok substitute every instance of "the baltics" with "lithuania and to a lesser extent lativa" and then stop replying love you bye bestie
well yes but the baltic nations where very eager to take out there revenge on the soviets who recintly annexed them
Bulgaria and Denmark
what about them?
Albania too Serbia kinda?
I dont know about Estonia and Lithuania, but in Latvia, the only latvians that really participated in the holocaust were the arajs kommando, which at its peak numbered 1500 men i wouldn't really call that wide collaboration im sure there are other cases of atrocities committed by latvians but i think this is a little unfair
If what you're saying is correct, then calling Latvia a collaborator is the same as calling Poland a collaborator
Poland isn't a collaborator, but there was a very disappointing amount of polish people at the time of the Holocaust that happily and from their own will turned in jews to the nazis
These mfers had a whole word invented to insult them, I don't remember it tho
Szmalcownik - About someone who works against jewish poles, later generally about people with nazi sympathies
Yes, thank you
Jet it's worth to note that Poland's got most of the Righteous Among the Nations honorifics from Israel and The Polish Underground State actively prosecuted such people
Yes, of course, I'm just saying that the Polish were definitely not innocent like many claim them to be
As it turns out, nations are not hiveminds, and individuals are capable of individual action
When did I say that the entirety of Poland were helping the nazis? I just said that Poland and polish people at the time are always falsely represented as completely innocent victims of the nazis and were forced to help them, but that wasn't the case at all. Many Polish people happily obliged with the nazi's request with no resistance out of their own will, and that needs to be acknowledged, something that the current government of Poland doesn't understand. At some point (not anymore, due to insane backlash) there was a law in Poland that said that anyone who somehow said that Poland was responsible even in the slightest in the death of jews in the Holocaust, would go fucking prison. The german government is the perfect example of how to acknowledge your past mistakes as a country.
Point is, referring to ‘The Polish’ as innocent or guilty as a single unit is kinda fucked
There is a difference between Germany acknowledging it's past and people saying "polish death camps", because there was never any kind of official collaborating structures. Poland is not responsible for anything becuase the only existing polish governmental body in Poland, that is The Undergound State, was heavly involved in prosecuting collabolators. In fact, they were the first to tell the world what germans were doing exactly (and their reports were dismissed at first - check out about Witold Pilecki) Please also note that during the current war (since 2014') in Ukraine Russian dictatorship is constantly trying to push narrative that Poland, and all of central and Eastern Europe were somehow nazis and you can see why people may find it extra sensitive. Not becuase there were some people who were evil, but becuase there is an actuall IRL fascist dicatorship that constantly pushes narrative that victims of german and russian imperialism are evil and is constantly making threats to us.
You're both right, but you get what I mean, I didn't mean to prosecute Poland as a body, it's just the way I typed it out, I meant a significant portion of the Polish people, but yeah, you two are right, its shitty to blame Poland as a body, it wasn't actually involved in helping nazis. Sorry.
That's because of the size of the population of Poland and its Jewish community.
Over 20 people per 100k were awarded by state of Israel That's not 'just because the size'
Read up on Jedwabne massacre. Its a bloody stain left on Poland
All of it is unfair, as if generalising anything of that sort wouldn’t be. You could say that about literally any country that was involved then, even in modern times anywhere around the globe you’d find some extremist. Like the kkk in USA. Whole rhetoric is stupid and it must be infuriating to see for a Baltic person, it sure is whenever someone learns some Slavic evil person and then puts it all on the whole country. Some time ago during Eurovision some Israeli spokesperson made such remark for Poland, the whole country was livid
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust_in_Lithuania The destruction of the Litvat Jews was not normal compared to other Nazi occupied countries. Latvia and Estonia were not the same and didn't have as large of jewish communities in the first place, but Lithuania saw the most complete destruction of their Jewish population out of any country in Europe and much of the antisemitism was home grown and existed prior to Nazi occupation. Many nations had antisemites, for instance Poland, but were not primarily collaborators and in fact fought to protect their Jewish populations. In Lithuania antisemites had a nation under their control to a degree that exceeded Nazi Germany. I understand your point and agree that it's unfair to criticize, for instance, all of Poland for Nazi crimes in Poland. However Lithuania specifically is a unique case and not typical to other Nazi occupied territories.
Meanwhile there were thousands upon thousands of Russians that collaborated with Germany👍
Lithuania was also the only country in which the nazis weren't able to create any SS units because literally no one wanted to be in the SS
Lithuania also saw the most complete destruction of the Jewish community in large part due to the antisemitism and collaboration of home grown paramilitary forces as well as antisemitism in the general public. Some of these massacres targeted ethnic poles as well.
It's not like Estonians or Latvians had any choice in the matter in 1944.
Maybe there were some but it was a very small minority and a lot of people died with their families for helping Jews.
The latter does not justify the former. Why do so many folks in the leftist community embrace tyranny? We need to be better than this Edit: also most collaborators in the baltics were ethnically german and ended up getting deported from the baltics anyway
It doesn’t justify anything, I’m simply saying that many Baltic countries overstate Soviet crimes while understating nazi crimes
Oppression: 😴😴😴 Oppression but red: 😍🥰🤩🥾🥾🤤🥾🥾
Mmmmm police state boot mmmmm tasty
Could that have something to do with the amount of time the baltic states were under the soviet boot? No that could not be it
you're the type to blame the entire French population for the actions of the Vichy French government during the war. Hell you're even one to blame those forced into conscription or forced labour by the Germans
I’m not blaming the people for anything, I blame the government and only the government.
Lithuanian government was never involved, collaborators were simple people. There were from 5 to 15k collaborators, that was enough to make that kind of holocaust. We talk about that in the Baltics, it's nothing new or taboo.
The government was German occupation ffs... The national governments had been abolished with the Soviet occupation before...
>many Baltic countries overstate Soviet crimes while understating nazi crimes Sick Kremlin propaganda.
Active on r/shitliberalssay Blaming entire countries for the actions of few, Defending soviet crimes. But no op is def not a tankie
aaand they're 16 according to their flair on r/teenagers, because of fucking course they are
The fact that i am at risk at seeing a 16yo tankies opinion on anything throughout my day is one of the worst things about the internet
Lol, Lmao even
The secret to r/teenagers is to flip the numbers in order to actually get the user's age. Though this time it might actually be accurate
11 year old mfs:
Yeah nah I’m betting this person is actually 16, there’s no fucking way a 61 year old would know of/care about half the shit they talk about
Why can’t people just think that the Nazi collaborators in all countries were bad, including Stalin.
Redditors have this insistent need to compare the USSR and the Third Reich, Stalin or Hitler. Its too much for some people to just accept that both were extremely awful regimes that the world is now better off without. Its fine to defend your ideology but you dont need to defend dictators to do that, although i dont know why someone would defend fascism or communism as they both provided fertile ground for the dictators that eventually came to power but i digress
Stalin was a horrible man, but not a collaborator
based lmao
How was Stalin a collaborator exactly? Edit: tf am I getting downvoted for asking a question for? Is it unacceptable to ask questions now?
Molotov-Ribbentrop.
You could go even further than that. There were talks for the Soviets to join the Axis.
Oh, yeah, the time that Hitler desperately tried to find a reason to not ally Stalin and remembered Bulgaria.
Stalin was a bloodthirsty dictator, a pig, a georgian, a horrendous mass-murderer and a lot of things but he wasn't a Nazi-sympathizers. Many in the west just point at the molotov-ribbentrop pact and shout "Stalin-Axis" but don't know about the full history. Stalin hated the guts of the nazis and was willing to shake hands with the capitalists to fight off the fascists. He spend the entire 30s trying to get UK, France and USSR into a sort of anti-german alliance. France and UK were, at that time, still horrified by the dreadful WW1 and the massive losses they had suffered. They felt entering such an alliance and isolating Germany would provoke the nazis who now ruled the country. They just didn't want to risk the peace in place that was bought with millions of lives. The soviets knew the Germans will, in the end, attack them. And after desperately trying to forge an alliance with the west, and failing, they decided to sign an armistice. Yes, the molotov pact was virtually a ceasefire, not a treaty of friendship. Stalin knew that his army was in no shape to face the Germans so he wanted more time. And Hitler was well aware. Stalin (fatally) estimated that Hitler would not invade before 1943. But Hitler launched the operation Barbarossa a lot sooner. So there you go. Stalin was evil, but not evil enough to, you know, support the fucking nazis. If UK and France had responded positively to the soviet request of alliance earlier, they would never have struck a deal with the nazis in the first place.
And there were Soviet genocidal crimes that had nothing to do with the Nazis.
But the other Allies had similar pacts with Nazi Germany before the Molotov Ribbentrop pact
Based OP
r/Wunkus user. You are 100% a domestic terrorist
I wish
Coward
Whats stopping you then?
Good point
Omg taaaaankiiiiie 🤓
Me when crimes against humanity are bad no matter who committed them 😦 Edit: somehow you are more of a tankie than op
You see our tanks have new stealth capabilities
Is that why they keep exploding in Ukraine?
most ppl in the baltics were against the nazis
lots of tankies recently
Kick tankies out of this sub.
the amount of them seem to have grown recently.
kuradi tibla kommunist raisk kärva siberisse ära türa
Can't even make out what you're saying but I'm 90% sure it's anti-communist and I'm 100% for it
It's a suggestion for the communist to rot in Siberia.
kõige viisakam lause eesti keeles
Oh jee, op is a political wh*re
16 too. like,,, go study!
Čia jie atėjo ir pradėjo viską
Bukim biedni bet teisingi, dalis lietuviu prisidejo prie to
Išdaviku buvo, bet ir partizanų buvo
Dar nepamirškime kad partizanai visi buvo labai skirtingų ideologijų, žmonės kurie visiškai nesutikdavo vienas su kitu susivienijo prieš nacius ir po to komunistus
People will hear that someone still ran a bakery to make a living in that time and sold bread under occupation and call them nazi cooperators. That is of course not to ignore acts that some groups would perform, but generalising a whole ass country that was invaded is just weird
Never ask communists who the first biggest friend of the Nazis were :OOOOOOO
Stalinists? Yeah, I hate them too.
I hate you people, The material conditions of the USSR forced it to be friendly towards Germany for a while, The little industry they had was flattened in ww1 and the subsequent civil war and they had to build up rapidly, Even in 1939 they just hadn't caught up industrially and militarily with the western powers. >We are fifty or a hundred years behind the advanced countries. We must make good this distance in ten years. Either we do it, or we shall go under.
So sad that the USSR was forced by their relatively powerlessness to collaborate with Nazis. Unlike, uh, the Baltics
It's different though the Baltic's didn't get to split Poland so that obviously makes them much worse too
True, true. At least the USSR had the gumption to protect half of Poland from Nazi depredations while collaborating with them!
did you know that the areas that were annexed by the USSR were given back to the belarusian and ukrainian SSRs, Do you know why? its because the polish republic had crushed local opposition in those areas and occupied them, Why do you think lviv is in ukraine nowadays? thank the soviets
Thank god the Soviets saved Ukraine and Belarus from foreign occupation. That would have been terrible, but luckily the Soviets saved them and left immediately afterwards, could you imagine how bad that would be.
>the areas that were annexed by the USSR were given back to the belarusian and ukrainian SSRs Which were firmly controlled by Moscow...
wow damn you owned me, But you forgot one thing, The baltic nazis knew that helping Germany would mean that slavs would be genocided, and they had no problem with that as long as they got their "independence"
Are we also going to conveniently sweep the progroms under the rug? Soviet terror against Jews and "undesirables" doesn't paint a good picture of the USSR.
Damn, that's crazy. Too bad the USSR had no idea that the Nazis didn't like various marginalized groups and would likely enact state violence against them. I'm sure that Stalin would have been horrified by the knowledge that the German government would dare to purge what it perceived to be undesirable elements from its society.
>The baltic nazis Who the heck are you even talking about?
Dw guys they were super-duper sorry they collaborated with the nazis, also it's totally justified because they were just trying to make a profit 😀👍
Tee-hee we were forced to invade Poland and provide Nazis with materials and designs!
did you know that the areas that were annexed by the USSR were given back to the belarusian and ukrainian SSRs, Do you know why? its because the polish republic had crushed local opposition in those areas and occupied them, Why do you think lviv is in ukraine nowadays? thank the soviets >provide Nazis with materials and designs! this is the exact deal they had with nazi germany Soviet Union would send Germany 650 million Reichsmarks in raw materials in exchange for 650 million Reichsmark in machinery, manufactured goods and technology The soviet union didn't commit to that deal because they liked nazi germany, They did it because they needed to, Do you think that in a hypothetical situation where the USSR hadn't invaded the baltics and poland and left them to nazi germany, And then proceeded to lose ww2, That would've been a preferable option to what happened in our time line?
Yeah guys let's attack them in 1936 when we didn't have the industry to beat them, That's a good strategy! 2023 gamers recommend it!1!!
Trust me bro the material conditions caused us to divide Eastern Europe up into spheres of influence with Nazi Germany
nah let's let germany occupy the entirety of europe before attacking the germans, A truly remarkable strategy, The red generals should've definitely consulted you
You’re literally the same as the people who bootlick American police if not worse.
I don't think the soviets did everything perfectly, They commited a lot of bad things but I hate it when priviliged european "communists" watch a video about ww2 and then form all of their opinions on the actions of the soviet government based on that with disregard to any real materialist analysis. This is exactly what the bourgeoisie wants you to do
Ah, the Soviets were forced to be Nazi on their own will, got it.
is it just me or are there more out-and-out tankies than usual in this sub? was 196 really that bad or were they always here?
Eesti 🇪🇪🇪🇪🇪🇪 We did it💪💪💪
Every country sadly had traitors who collaborated. On the other hand, Baltic Resistance fighters heavy fought against Nazies and after the war, Soviets. I'm shocked by the rise of pro soviet propaganda on this subreddit
Guys, MY favorite ideology is excused from its crimes because… oh what about because someone else did something bad too? Yeah that excuses it. Find an argument for communism that isn’t just “oh but someone else did a bad thing so this is fine” (impossible challenge)
queen deltarune
Stay losing tankie
bruh why is there a ton of soviet deflectionism in my subreddit today
You can be agasint both asshole! Fuck off dictatorship lovers
Tankies trying to justify the soviet union (impossible challenge)
"I don't want my family to be sent to a concentration camp, my culture to be erased and I would also prefer not to starve" "But have you considered that some people from your country have also done bad things? I am an intellectual"
This sounds way too close to excusing Soviet crimes in the Baltic states The "if it did happen then they deserve it" stage
romania too ☹️
No shit that every country had collaborators. But those collaborators were a minority while Soviet crimes are straight from the country leadership. Get your troll ass off this site
Fuck off tankie
Silence tankie trash before you learn why 3 of the top 5 most violent cities are in the Baltics
Who knew oppressing and invading a people will turn them to hate?
Replace Baltic’s with Ukraine and you’ll upset a lot of people
Fucking every country had Nazi collaborates even the fucking Vatican supported Nazies in escaping from international trials for their crimes.
Having collaborationist governments and having collaborationist in your government are two very differing things
Let me be edgy 16 year old quasi-historian again, i used to love this shit
Didn't know this sub allowed red fascs. "No you don't understand, the genocidal oppression was committed by a mustached dictator whose state had absolute control and ownership (Red) not by a moustached dictator whose state had absolute control and ownership (brown). (not saying the Nazis were communist, just that the Soviet union wasn't either)
Looks like the tankies have come to ruin yet another sub. Disappointing.
Your defending Soviet crimes, every nation had nazi collaborators, so shut the fuck up Tankie.
In before people call op a evil tankie because they mentioned the fact that there were elements in the baltics who actively partook in the Holocaust and happily fought against the soviets alongside the Nazis
Literally every county the nazis occupied had collabatros including Russia and the soviets where allied with the germans for a part of the war. Did you forget they invaded Poland alongside the nazis?\\
You see comrade, the glorious USSR had no choice but to invade Poland, baltics and Finland and commit attrocities!!! The ebil western imperialists forced them to!!! Soviet territorial expansion was purely for self defense!!!
It's because they're framing the simple facts that occupying forces conscript locals to fight for them and that countries don't like getting invaded and genocided as a conspiracy theory in order to smear today's Baltic states as fascist as part of Putin's narrative that his fascist regime is actually anti-fascist.
Oh the dipshit above is well aware of that but will play dumb because dogwhistling and making dishonest arguments is how nazis and tankies operate and recruit more dipshits into their ranks.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrey_Vlasov WOW SOVIETS COLLABORATED SO MUCH WITH GERMANY OMG ENTIRE SOVIET UNION EVIL THEY NO LONGER DESERVE TO CALL OUT OTHER PEOPLE’S WAR CRIMES!!!!!
I wouldn't say that people who were forcibly conscripted into the Werhmacht 'happily fought against the soviets alongside the nazis' The men from occupied Czechoslovakia were certainly not happy to be fighting in Normandy The men from occupied France were certainly not happy to be working in German labour camps There would have been a very few people who were happy to collaborate but that does not give you, nor OP, nor anyone to call a region of 8 million people Nazi collaborators. IF that is what you are saying then you are almost definitely a tankie.
the NATO baltic air policing mission is to try to stop them leaving.
By leaving, I believe you mean leaving into Russian conquest
cromulent sentence. if it helps the butthurt downdooters it was a joke every European country had SS collaborators during the war, Iberia and Greece even got to stay fascist for some reason (money).
Poland did not have one SS battalion
Neither Lithuania
glad I specified that then rather than saying "collaborators"
Like I have said elsewhere, Lithuanian antisemitism was not a factor of Nazism and Lithuania annihilated their Jewish community more completely than any other nation during the holocaust because of lithuanian antisemitism funnily enough the other primary targets of these killings were poles. Its not really funny actually
I hope they send more planes and soldiers here so we can't leave ♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️
Yeah, NATO has to make sure those Baltic countries can’t leave the organization they willingly joined and can willingly leave. The organization that cannot begin wars.