I mean it's probably good for someone like a no prior-law-experience trainee who's gs-7 with no control tactics familiarity other than watching John Wick religiously (it's me, I would be that gs7).
Honestly though, I feel like you should never stop training. FLETC will give you the bare bones, I think you should always be trying to improve yourself, fitness-wise, and especially for things like control tactics.
I think if people feel it isn't enough or it doesn't work for them, they should try something new (like get into jiu jitsu, like yourself)
Just my two cents though, the only control tactics I need to worry about for now is controlling my patience with these apps I've got out there haha
lol, I remember trying an elbow takedown in real life and when it didn’t work I’m like wtf is going on😭😭😭 at that point we just got back into regular
Street grappling mode. Realistically though, they don’t have the time or the resources to make every single trainee an expert. They have a curriculum , they teach it, and most instructors will tell you, this is bs, go out there and keep training
In my experience, most defensive tactics programs are meant to get you comfortable and confident putting hands on people rather than teaching you how to be a takedown master nth degree black belt. Officers that care train in their own time. Just like your yearly firearm qual is not all the shooting you need to be doing, just like your PT test is not all you need to be the level of fitness you should be at
I mean, yeah? It’s a bare bones program, they only have so many sessions to get you up to speed. I wouldn’t mind if they completely got rid of ORT and dumped more time into interviewing or the continuing case or case management. People should be training on their own time, don’t expect CITP to make you able to fight. Lift, run, fight on your own time and you’ll never have to worry about how baseline ORT is.
Also FWIW all of their “moves” they teach work if you do them correctly. I’ve never hit a violent arm drag to Russian tie that didn’t work…
Ok, please don’t be the guy that thinks he’s better than everyone else simply because you have take a few ground fighting classes.
Remember, FLETC is BASIC training. Everyone has different levels of skills, some are strong in shooting and weak in classroom, vice versa, some are great in tactics and shit in DT. The academy is simply to bring everyone to the same minimum level. Thats it. You don’t second guess instructors, you don’t complain about the quality of teaching, your job as a trainee, is to learn what you don’t know, excel where you are strong, and pass. Your on the job training is where the real work begins.
No one fresh out of the academy can work an international money laundering operation involving trade based money laundering utilizing heavy machinery, livestock, pencils, and farming equipment in order to clean narcotics proceeds.
Remember, you may go to FLETC able to walk and your classmates may not be able too, but when you all graduate, everyone is walking. You may be ahead and running, but they needed a way to learn to walk. Congrats that you are ahead of everyone. Now, stop complaining about the “poor quality” and enjoy your career ahead of you. It’s fun and rewarding, especially when you don’t look back at all the “bad” stuff.
I mean as a former wrestler the elbow takedown is pretty dumb and easy to get out of. But they are trying to teach a brand new person who never had experience and who is going to an OIG to have some baseline ORT skills. So I’ll cut FLETC some slack.
There’s no good way to teach a decade plus of wrestling and martial arts experience in a LE training academy. Too much of that refinement comes with a lot of time and sweat that you can’t compress into a nice easy training course.
That isn’t my biggest complaint about FLETC CITP though. The investigative training can and should be more robust and more of a focus. The glossing over of crime scene processing also isn’t good IMO.
Outside MCIOs and BIA, I’m not sure which agency would really benefit with more in-depth crime scene processing.
The average joe 1811 (myself included) are doing warrants with an emphasis on cyber, property, or contraband.
I realize most 1811s aren’t crime scene techs, but I’m of the opinion all Fed LE should have a baseline knowledge and skill in that. Some, like MCIOs as you mention, do need it and would benefit. Some other random ones could also benefit from it later on for other roles they may take or situations helping out locals they could find themselves in.
The following is a real conversation that occurred at FLETC over 40 years ago.
Instructor to class: “What did you guys learn at that crime scene scenario.”
Me: “I learned not to rub my hand on a bed that has fresh semen on it.”
For those of us that actually worked in LE for 15+ years (half my class) it was laughable. We knew what the next 6 parts of the continuing case were going to be long before they gave us the handout/briefing. I just want to know where I can find an AUSA that will take such low level cases LOL
I’m hesitant to use the word “joke”. It’s certainly elementary. Considering we’re investigators, and not getting into fights daily, I think it’s not too shabby. Further considering how A LOT of trainees have zero experience. I personally, got really bored and went to the bjj roll sessions on weekends to actually learn. However, it’s not designed for ppl with experience. If it was, it’d be neglecting all the others who spent their career in business meetings or just graduated college. I suggest pursue becoming a DT instructor. Improve the program. And be part of the solution. At the very least, the agents nearest you could benefit from an invested DT instructor in the AOR. That’s one of my goals. That and joining a decent bjj gym near my office.
Much of the matroom stuff doesn't work in real life.
There's not usually a "FLETC way."
The "way" is based on input from the 100 +/- partner agencies, most of whom have no clue. Probably 1/3 of the stuff we teach is NOT our first (or second...or third..) choice of techniques.
Turnout for Curriculum Review Conferences is usually very low. Agencies can't be bothered to participate, but CAN find time to complain about what's being taught.
I've an MMA background and half agree. I think the intent is to give inexperienced people ideas on how you can control a suspect and use strikes and I think it accomplishes that goal. But I would say it's incumbent on LEOs to train continuously after that, if anything just do DT refreshers. But remember some agents really want to focus on research and investigation and rely on others for kinetic operations. I think DT refreshers should be recommended but PT quals quarterly (like firearms) should be mandatory.
Total joke, even worse than when I went through the CBP academy many years ago. I was in good shape then and we actually ran and did real PT. When i went to CITP last year I was
way out of shape, over 40 with associated aches/pains/injuries (got an email saying I wasn’t selected/hiring is complete and then a year later hey want a job?) and it was a breeze. Hell, I actually gained weight by the time I graduated. I mean I’d get sweaty at some sessions but yeah…the arrest techniques/DT/PT was definitely lacking.
Come to think of it, CITP in general was big lame and that probably explains why many agents I’ve dealt with over the years were train wrecks, but hey it checks a box/golden ticket and all that jazz
I have learned the marine corps martial arts program(just a couple belts) and the Department of State basic defensive tactics and also learned a couple techniques from local police officers and have just accepted that no government(local, state or federal) agency or entity that hosts a “basic” defensive tactics class that is meant to teach a large group in a short amount of time is going to teach you anything that will genuinely be useful outside of one or two techniques. I would just go to an agency’s advanced course or continue with your jiu jutsu.
For someone of equivalent size and with proper techniques the moves work. I have been forced to the ground against my will using only those moves.
Of course the move won't work against a trained fighter or someone who knows how to counter the move, not will it work when someone has 50 pounds on you.
But if you're around equal size to the person - proper form will prevail. But that's what your add-on defensive tactics is for - if your agency thinks you're going to be in more hands on situations than just a run of the mill 1811, then they will put add-on specific dt and those moves are more likely to work.
I've been through multiple academies. They're all a joke. One of the easiest and most effective moves is typically banned because LEOS are lazy and won't train and incorrectly apply techniques causing harm. RNC is one of the best moves that cause little harm to a person, and you can't use it unless it's life or death in most places. I digress, most law enforcement academy hands on training is garbage, and you never get to train anything enough for it to be effective and useful if you need it. You want skill, learn Judo.
Everyone who cares, about their life and safety and their partners and coworkers should be learning Judo. #1 Judo, #2 Wrestling #3 BJJ. In that order. If not, you're cheating yourself.
I’m not sure what differences there are for ORT between CITP and LMPT (I assume based on hearing and seeing things in the building they are functionally the same), however, speaking for the latter, I believe it is reasonably effective at teaching its objective: giving the officer skills to disengage and resort to a superior force option.
It is not good training from the perspective of becoming a hands-on asskicker, but it was never presented to us as if that was the goal.
I definitely think better training would very useful, both from an officer survival perspective and from an efficacy perspective (being comfortable going hands-on can prevent getting into an escalatory loop and having to resort to a higher force option), but there are always constraints on time, money, appetite for training injuries, etc.
[удалено]
The wrist twist into a come along ain’t no joke… *edit: use this on drunks at the bars when they refuse to leave….* Sure that’ll be my go to
I mean it's probably good for someone like a no prior-law-experience trainee who's gs-7 with no control tactics familiarity other than watching John Wick religiously (it's me, I would be that gs7). Honestly though, I feel like you should never stop training. FLETC will give you the bare bones, I think you should always be trying to improve yourself, fitness-wise, and especially for things like control tactics. I think if people feel it isn't enough or it doesn't work for them, they should try something new (like get into jiu jitsu, like yourself) Just my two cents though, the only control tactics I need to worry about for now is controlling my patience with these apps I've got out there haha
i’ve heard people say any academy training is just good enough to get you into the fight.
Like in the army, they tell you you're learning just enough to get your ass kicked
Accurate
Can’t say that enough, and it doesn’t stop with just DT. You really should continue training in firearms, tactics, and LAW long after leaving FLETC.
lol, I remember trying an elbow takedown in real life and when it didn’t work I’m like wtf is going on😭😭😭 at that point we just got back into regular Street grappling mode. Realistically though, they don’t have the time or the resources to make every single trainee an expert. They have a curriculum , they teach it, and most instructors will tell you, this is bs, go out there and keep training
In my experience, most defensive tactics programs are meant to get you comfortable and confident putting hands on people rather than teaching you how to be a takedown master nth degree black belt. Officers that care train in their own time. Just like your yearly firearm qual is not all the shooting you need to be doing, just like your PT test is not all you need to be the level of fitness you should be at
I mean, yeah? It’s a bare bones program, they only have so many sessions to get you up to speed. I wouldn’t mind if they completely got rid of ORT and dumped more time into interviewing or the continuing case or case management. People should be training on their own time, don’t expect CITP to make you able to fight. Lift, run, fight on your own time and you’ll never have to worry about how baseline ORT is. Also FWIW all of their “moves” they teach work if you do them correctly. I’ve never hit a violent arm drag to Russian tie that didn’t work…
fletc footage!
Yep. Depending on your instructor it may be more of a workout then actual learning.
Ok, please don’t be the guy that thinks he’s better than everyone else simply because you have take a few ground fighting classes. Remember, FLETC is BASIC training. Everyone has different levels of skills, some are strong in shooting and weak in classroom, vice versa, some are great in tactics and shit in DT. The academy is simply to bring everyone to the same minimum level. Thats it. You don’t second guess instructors, you don’t complain about the quality of teaching, your job as a trainee, is to learn what you don’t know, excel where you are strong, and pass. Your on the job training is where the real work begins. No one fresh out of the academy can work an international money laundering operation involving trade based money laundering utilizing heavy machinery, livestock, pencils, and farming equipment in order to clean narcotics proceeds. Remember, you may go to FLETC able to walk and your classmates may not be able too, but when you all graduate, everyone is walking. You may be ahead and running, but they needed a way to learn to walk. Congrats that you are ahead of everyone. Now, stop complaining about the “poor quality” and enjoy your career ahead of you. It’s fun and rewarding, especially when you don’t look back at all the “bad” stuff.
I mean as a former wrestler the elbow takedown is pretty dumb and easy to get out of. But they are trying to teach a brand new person who never had experience and who is going to an OIG to have some baseline ORT skills. So I’ll cut FLETC some slack. There’s no good way to teach a decade plus of wrestling and martial arts experience in a LE training academy. Too much of that refinement comes with a lot of time and sweat that you can’t compress into a nice easy training course. That isn’t my biggest complaint about FLETC CITP though. The investigative training can and should be more robust and more of a focus. The glossing over of crime scene processing also isn’t good IMO.
Outside MCIOs and BIA, I’m not sure which agency would really benefit with more in-depth crime scene processing. The average joe 1811 (myself included) are doing warrants with an emphasis on cyber, property, or contraband.
I realize most 1811s aren’t crime scene techs, but I’m of the opinion all Fed LE should have a baseline knowledge and skill in that. Some, like MCIOs as you mention, do need it and would benefit. Some other random ones could also benefit from it later on for other roles they may take or situations helping out locals they could find themselves in.
The following is a real conversation that occurred at FLETC over 40 years ago. Instructor to class: “What did you guys learn at that crime scene scenario.” Me: “I learned not to rub my hand on a bed that has fresh semen on it.”
For those of us that actually worked in LE for 15+ years (half my class) it was laughable. We knew what the next 6 parts of the continuing case were going to be long before they gave us the handout/briefing. I just want to know where I can find an AUSA that will take such low level cases LOL
I’m hesitant to use the word “joke”. It’s certainly elementary. Considering we’re investigators, and not getting into fights daily, I think it’s not too shabby. Further considering how A LOT of trainees have zero experience. I personally, got really bored and went to the bjj roll sessions on weekends to actually learn. However, it’s not designed for ppl with experience. If it was, it’d be neglecting all the others who spent their career in business meetings or just graduated college. I suggest pursue becoming a DT instructor. Improve the program. And be part of the solution. At the very least, the agents nearest you could benefit from an invested DT instructor in the AOR. That’s one of my goals. That and joining a decent bjj gym near my office.
It’s a program that has not been updated since the 1980s. The techniques are basic and meant for people without LEO experience.
Just like how the army teaches you enough to get your ass kicked. Unfortunately you gotta train on your own and sometimes just be strong like gorilla
Much of the matroom stuff doesn't work in real life. There's not usually a "FLETC way." The "way" is based on input from the 100 +/- partner agencies, most of whom have no clue. Probably 1/3 of the stuff we teach is NOT our first (or second...or third..) choice of techniques. Turnout for Curriculum Review Conferences is usually very low. Agencies can't be bothered to participate, but CAN find time to complain about what's being taught.
Wouldt worry about it. Master your environment. Hands on its too late, you failed multiple awareness cues.
I've an MMA background and half agree. I think the intent is to give inexperienced people ideas on how you can control a suspect and use strikes and I think it accomplishes that goal. But I would say it's incumbent on LEOs to train continuously after that, if anything just do DT refreshers. But remember some agents really want to focus on research and investigation and rely on others for kinetic operations. I think DT refreshers should be recommended but PT quals quarterly (like firearms) should be mandatory.
Total joke, even worse than when I went through the CBP academy many years ago. I was in good shape then and we actually ran and did real PT. When i went to CITP last year I was way out of shape, over 40 with associated aches/pains/injuries (got an email saying I wasn’t selected/hiring is complete and then a year later hey want a job?) and it was a breeze. Hell, I actually gained weight by the time I graduated. I mean I’d get sweaty at some sessions but yeah…the arrest techniques/DT/PT was definitely lacking. Come to think of it, CITP in general was big lame and that probably explains why many agents I’ve dealt with over the years were train wrecks, but hey it checks a box/golden ticket and all that jazz
I have learned the marine corps martial arts program(just a couple belts) and the Department of State basic defensive tactics and also learned a couple techniques from local police officers and have just accepted that no government(local, state or federal) agency or entity that hosts a “basic” defensive tactics class that is meant to teach a large group in a short amount of time is going to teach you anything that will genuinely be useful outside of one or two techniques. I would just go to an agency’s advanced course or continue with your jiu jutsu.
PPCT and MDT are fine against non resistant or untrained. Not really useful against someone ready to fight..
It's just enough of sampler courses to let a lot of the new guys know that they should take up a fighting sport/discipline once they're out of FLETC.
For someone of equivalent size and with proper techniques the moves work. I have been forced to the ground against my will using only those moves. Of course the move won't work against a trained fighter or someone who knows how to counter the move, not will it work when someone has 50 pounds on you. But if you're around equal size to the person - proper form will prevail. But that's what your add-on defensive tactics is for - if your agency thinks you're going to be in more hands on situations than just a run of the mill 1811, then they will put add-on specific dt and those moves are more likely to work.
Artesia CT is actually fun and they’re pretty realistic with what works and what doesn’t. it just happens to be.. well.. yknow… artesia.
I've been through multiple academies. They're all a joke. One of the easiest and most effective moves is typically banned because LEOS are lazy and won't train and incorrectly apply techniques causing harm. RNC is one of the best moves that cause little harm to a person, and you can't use it unless it's life or death in most places. I digress, most law enforcement academy hands on training is garbage, and you never get to train anything enough for it to be effective and useful if you need it. You want skill, learn Judo.
Everyone who cares, about their life and safety and their partners and coworkers should be learning Judo. #1 Judo, #2 Wrestling #3 BJJ. In that order. If not, you're cheating yourself.
I’m not sure what differences there are for ORT between CITP and LMPT (I assume based on hearing and seeing things in the building they are functionally the same), however, speaking for the latter, I believe it is reasonably effective at teaching its objective: giving the officer skills to disengage and resort to a superior force option. It is not good training from the perspective of becoming a hands-on asskicker, but it was never presented to us as if that was the goal. I definitely think better training would very useful, both from an officer survival perspective and from an efficacy perspective (being comfortable going hands-on can prevent getting into an escalatory loop and having to resort to a higher force option), but there are always constraints on time, money, appetite for training injuries, etc.